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Episode 125 - Holy Poppin' Long Episode

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 14m·held·Oct 5, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Eclectic Gamers discusses Deep Root's mismanaged reveal strategy and platform design details.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers Podcast Episode 125 covers two major pinball topics: Deep Root Pinball handling of their platform reveal (which was cancelled then followed by an info dump after a leak), and detailed discussion of Deep Root's cabinet design, backbox, and lift glass mechanics. The hosts also discuss Ranger in the Ruins, a roguelike game for Multimorphic P3, and Jersey Jack Pinball upcoming Guns N' Roses reveal. The episode emphasizes frustration with Deep Root's communication strategy and explores the technical and design implications of their modular pinball platform.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack Pinball's next reveal scheduled for October 5, 2020 is Guns N' Roses pinball

    high confidence · Dennis states 'this is going to be the Guns N' Roses reveal' with certainty about the timing, though the show was recorded before the reveal

  • Ranger in the Ruins is a roguelike P3 game designed by Nick Baldridge with internet-integrated ghost data features

    high confidence · Dennis provides detailed description: 'when others are playing this game and their P3s are connected to the Internet, when they die or lose, when they drain, the ghost data is saved into the cloud'

  • Deep Root Pinball cancelled their planned reveal, then released an info dump after images of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland leaked

    high confidence · Dennis: 'they announced how there wasn't going to be a reveal. So, talk about that. And then it was the next day that this info dump happens... after images of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland leaked'

  • Deep Root Pinball's cabinet features a hinged assisted lift glass with gas shocks, similar to late 1960s Bally designs

    high confidence · Dennis describes: 'hinged assisted lift and drop glass frame and lock bar seal... Bally did this starting in the late 60s'

  • Fun With Bonus by Steve Bowen is transitioning from daily updates to a less frequent schedule with more focus on Deep Root Pinball content

    high confidence · Dennis: 'He had been doing daily pinball updates on it for over eight years. And so he has decided that it's not going to be daily anymore. It will still exist... And it's also going to have more of a focus on stuff going on with Deep Root'

Notable Quotes

  • “If they were to do that to me, it would mean that for once it really was the best kept secret in pinball.”

    Dennis @ ~08:30 — Expresses skepticism about Toy Story rumor for JJP reveal; highlights community obsession with guessing unreleased games

  • “I really think Multimorphic needs to consider having demos available so that people who own the modules can actually download and try the game. Because just... I would be really pissed if I downloaded Ranger in the Ruins and hated it and had spent $150 and couldn't get a refund and couldn't sell it.”

    Dennis @ ~29:45 — Key critique of video game vs pinball business model mismatch; advocates for industry adoption of standard demo practices

  • “The giveaway wasn't a copy of the game. I mean, I would have given away a copy of the game to someone watching. And I think nothing to me quite said, we haven't sold enough P3s yet.”

    Dennis @ ~27:20 — Criticism of Multimorphic's cautious approach to distributing Ranger in the Ruins; suggests low P3 adoption

  • “I don't think Ranger in the Ruins by itself will help sell units. I think if they've got 15 of these or 20 of these sitting on there... it's like, oh, you don't feel like playing Heist right now, that's cool. We've got this whole other game you can just... key up the menu and go, I want to go play Doodleberry.”

    Tony @ ~25:15 — Strategic assessment of P3's future requiring third-party content library rather than single games

  • “I don't think it was handled well. I have my rant cap on.”

    Tony @ ~40:50 — Tony signals strong criticism incoming about Deep Root's reveal/non-reveal handling strategy

  • “Do you think if that leak had not happened that this info dump would have happened? I do not. I don't either.”

    Dennis and Tony @ ~38:00 — Agreement that Deep Root forced into transparency only by external leak; suggests poor communication strategy

  • “I kind of like this narrow, wide LED because it gives you the feel of the old DMDs while giving you the abilities of the LEDs. So it doesn't look like they just strapped a computer monitor into the back box.”

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyDeep Root PinballcompanyMultimorphiccompanyNick BaldridgepersonSteve BowenpersonDennispersonTonypersonAlvin JonespersonRoanoke Pinball Museumorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Video game industry norms (demos, return policies, non-transferable digital licenses) conflicting with pinball collector expectations around ownership, resale, and try-before-buy practices

    high · Dennis: 'I would be really pissed if I downloaded Ranger in the Ruins and hated it and had spent $150 and couldn't get a refund and couldn't sell it... Steam and various other video game digital libraries have gotten to the point where they have very robust return policies'

  • ?

    community_signal: Deep Root Pinball cancelled planned reveal, forced to release info dump only after image leak of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland; hosts criticize communication strategy as mismanaged

    high · 'they announced how there wasn't going to be a reveal' then 'the next day that this info dump happens... after images... leaked' and 'Do you think if that leak had not happened that this info dump would have happened? I do not.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Third-party developer ecosystem (Nick Baldridge with Ranger in the Ruins) emerging as critical to P3's long-term viability and fresh content pipeline

    high · Dennis: 'I think that games like this and this kind of third-party development for P3 is what should probably be the core of P3's future development... That is what the appeal of the platform is supposed to be'

  • ?

    event_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball scheduled reveal for October 5, 2020; widely anticipated to be Guns N' Roses machine after months of community speculation

    high · Dennis: 'Jersey Jack Pinball. Their next reveal is scheduled for tomorrow, Monday, October 5th, 2020... this is going to be the Guns N' Roses reveal'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.404

0:00
Alvin Jones here, calling in to tell you that this episode of the Eclectic Gamers Podcast is brought to you by the Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia. The Roanoke Pinball Museum is an interactive museum dedicated to the science and history of pinball. Their mission is to cultivate curiosity in science, art, and history through pinball while preserving and honoring its role in American culture. The museum is open every day except Monday and houses over 65 machines with models ranging from 1932 to 2018. Shane, we're in Oak Pinball Museum. It's not a turd.
0:49
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, October 4th. This is episode 125. I'm Tony And I'm Dennis And we get to talk about pinball and video games Yay indeed What's been going on Tony? And we get to talk about pinball and video games That absolutely nobody's talked about over the course of the last two weeks Because everything happened the day after we came out Yep, and that's not going to happen again to us either It's not going to happen again this week No, I've been really busy with work related issues for the last couple weeks, so I haven't done a whole lot of anything.
1:29
I've barely played video games. Between work and the fact that I had two books that I've been looking forward to come out four days apart, so I kind of burned through one to get into the other, I've been reading a lot more than is even normal for me.
1:46
So I haven't done much of anything. I've read and finished book four of the Bobaverse series, Heaven's River. I've started the 17th Dresden Files book, Battleground. I've played my normal games that have my, like, dailies and stuff. And I've watched Lower Decks and The Great British Baking Show and The Boys. That's literally been my entire last two weeks, basically, is staying caught up on all the stuff that we're watching, and that's it. Yeah, it's not much different for me. I hadn't started a new video game yet after finishing Outer Worlds, so I've still weekly done some Overwatch,

Tony @ ~48:30 — Positive assessment of Deep Root's display design as balancing nostalgia with modern functionality

Ranger in the Ruinsgame
Guns N' Rosesgame
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventurelandgame
Fun With Bonusproduct
Cosmic Kart Racinggame
Buffalo Pinballorganization
This Week in Pinballmedia
Zach Minneyperson
The Pinball Showmedia
Ballycompany
Stern Pinballcompany
P3 (Multimorphic)product

market_signal: Multimorphic's cautious approach to P3 content distribution (time-limited giveaway instead of permanent copy, no demos) suggests low P3 unit sales and market uncertainty

medium · Dennis: 'the giveaway was someone was going to be randomly draw for someone with a P3 to get a time-limited copy... I think nothing to me quite said, we haven't sold enough P3s yet'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Bowen transitioning Fun With Bonus after 8 years of daily updates; now focusing more on Deep Root Pinball rules design work

    high · Dennis: 'Steve Bowden... decided to transition his Fun With Bonus site... He had been doing daily pinball updates on it for over eight years... it's also going to have more of a focus on stuff going on with Deep Root because he does rules design for Deep Root Pinball'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root Pinball featuring distinctive backbox design with panoramic wraparound translight and narrow LED display as throwback to DMD era while maintaining modern capabilities

    high · Tony: 'I kind of like this narrow, wide LED because it gives you the feel of the old DMDs while giving you the abilities of the LEDs. So it doesn't look like they just strapped a computer monitor into the back box.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Uncertainty about durability and replaceability of Deep Root's assisted lift glass system with gas shocks, compared to simpler Bally kickstand designs

    medium · Tony: 'anybody with an older car... know that those [gas shocks] don't last. And that's been a big concern... The replacement of a glass... it's going to be more challenging because it's not just slide in, slide out'

  • ?

    business_signal: P3 platform requires library of 15-20 third-party games to remain compelling and justify $10,000+ investment; single titles insufficient to drive sales or retention

    high · Tony: 'I don't think Ranger in the Ruins by itself will help sell units. I think if they've got 15 of these or 20 of these sitting on there... oh, you don't feel like playing Heist right now, that's cool. We've got this whole other game'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Ranger in the Ruins introducing roguelike game mechanics and internet-integrated cloud ghost data to pinball, blending video game and pinball design paradigms

    high · Dennis: 'he has an Internet-integrated feature involving the ghosts... when others are playing this game... when they drain, the ghost data is saved into the cloud, and other players that play on other machines can experience those ghosts'

    • 2:39
    some phone game stuff, stayed caught up with Lower Decks, stayed caught up with The Boys, watched a few movies and that's it it's been crazy it's been nuts overall I have I know I've got just a tag in the video game section but it doesn't matter the second was the release date for Star Wars Squadrons and I have purchased that game and I have installed that game but I've not started it Not even once yet.
    3:18
    I installed it, or not installed it, but, well, yeah, I installed it last night, but just before I went to bed, and I was like, maybe I'll play in the morning. And then when I got up this morning, I worked on my phone game stuff and finishing some stuff up, prepping for the podcast, and then just catching up on all the various dramas and stuff that I've missed throughout the week, and then it's like, oh, hey, it's time to record a podcast. Yep. Well, I guess we'll go ahead and we will get going with the main meat of that podcast recording. And we'll open with what we hinted at in the intro, which is about us just coming out a little too soon before another big disclosure happens. So in that regard, moving into our pinball segment, the first news item is Jersey Jack Pinball. Their next reveal is scheduled for tomorrow, Monday, October 5th, 2020. so yay us we'll be the last to talk about it because we're putting things out on time as usual so this is going to be the Guns N' Roses reveal I bet there are still people insisting that it's going to be Toy Story, it can't, no they won't do that to me, it has to be Guns N' Roses it doesn't make any sense for it to be anything else it's going to be Guns N' Roses here's the thing, if it is Toy Story, this will have been the biggest troll of all time I'll be mad And it would be hilarious. If they did it, I might refuse to cover it on the next episode. If they were to do that to me. But if they did it, it would mean that for once it really was the best kept secret in pinball.
    4:58
    Yeah, I guess that's it. You have a good point. But generally, stay tuned for our next episode where we will talk about what is assuredly not Toy Story. and what JJP has revealed.
    5:12
    The Weird Al Yankovic game. That would be fun. Hey, that's a music pin I could get behind. Yeah. Moving on, here's a topic originally I planned to cover in the last episode, and then when we arranged to have Carrie and Nick on to talk about Solid State Pinball, I sort of scrapped my show plan that I was originally working on, and I did not carry it over into the news, and that is regarding Ranger in the Ruins, the new game that was designed by Nick Baldridge from Gaming on 10 podcast and for amusement only, the EM and Bingo Pinball podcast for Multimultifix P3 platform.
    5:50
    So I do have a link in the show notes to the This Week in Pinball deep dive on Ranger in the Ruins. So anyone who wants to really understand more about the game should go there and take a look. It's got photos, it's got descriptions of the gameplay. and what went into it. Basically, though, it's a $150 game, which by pinball standards is incredibly cheap. However, you do need to already own the P3 platform, which is approximately $10,000, and then you also need to have the Cosmic Kart Racing module for it. So not everyone who initially bought a P3, especially if you initially, initially bought it, Cosmic Kart Racing did not exist when the platform first came out. So you need both. You need the platform and you need the module. And then it's an additional $150 to get just Ranger in the Ruins.
    6:39
    As I noted, Nick Baldry's designed the game. He did the, obviously, the module and layouts already in existence. So he didn't design that aspect, but he did the rules development, the programming of the game, the graphics of the game, the sound design, and also the internet capability. Which I think is probably the element that's most unique compared to other pinball games when we're talking pinball. and that is he has an Internet-integrated feature involving the ghosts. So when others are playing this game and their P3s are connected to the Internet, when they die or lose, when they drain, the ghost data is saved into the cloud, and other players that play on other machines can experience those ghosts, and they interact with them in a way because the ghosts are what provide items, and collecting items is a major part of having success in playing this game.
    7:36
    So I think the way the ghosts appear is it's related to like a randomized timer, and that's when the ghost data gets pulled off of the Internet.
    7:46
    But you'll have something show up if you're playing locally and not connected on Wi-Fi or something. So in terms of that, you go around, you collect these items. Some of the items are good. Some of the items are not good. This falls into a genre which Pinball is not familiar with, but I know you are, Tony, and that's the roguelike. Yeah, you could say that I am familiar. What's your favorite roguelike?
    8:11
    I'm going to have to say probably FTL. Okay. Mine's Binding of Isaac. Binding of Isaac is good. I've heard great things about FTL. I still haven't bought it, though. Yeah, no, Binding of Isaac is a lot of fun. I just like FTL a little bit more for the strategy-ish aspects, where Binding of Isaac is a bit more, how to put it, it's a bit more fast-paced and insane. They're both a lot of fun. Yeah, Binding of Isaac is almost, in some ways, like a run-and-gun. Right.
    8:46
    But a few other things about Ranger in the Ruins I wanted to mention. The game has eight music tracks. There are two multiball modes in the game.
    8:55
    And one of the things, because it's so different from what pinball people are familiar with, is I was a little curious. I did ask Nick about, like, how does game sale, game trading work for something like this? So Nick told me that you cannot transfer your Ranger in the Ruins license to another person. If you were to sell your entire P3, it could go with the P3. But otherwise, there's no real way to sell or trade your used game away without giving up the entire platform, which fits with how video games work, as we know. You can't sell a game out of your Steam account to someone else's Steam account. But that is different than what most pinball people are used to.
    9:33
    Now, that's different for the base game for the modules, because I was wondering, well, what happens if you give someone, like I wanted to sell, I wanted to keep my P3, but sell my Cosmic Kart Racing module, what would happen? When the person who buys the Cosmic Kart Racing module would freely then be able to download Cosmic Kart Racing and get it to work with their P3. but they would have to buy Ranger in the Ruins through the store. Make sense? That makes total sense. So that's the model. Before moving on, I did want to kind of ask you how do you think a game like this would be received with a model like this on P3?
    10:09
    It's this idea of these third-party developers who are designing software own way. I want to focus on that. I know third-party developers are allowed to develop modules for P3, but in a scenario like this where someone is saying, here is something you may go and buy, obviously significantly more expensive than a video game would typically be, but significantly cheaper than most stuff is in pinball. You know, this is way less than a topper or even a lot of mods.
    10:36
    Do you think that helps P3? Do you think it moves more P3 units? Do you think it's a good way for people to get into pinball development? I'm just curious. I think that games like this and this kind of third-party development for P3 is what should probably be the core of P3's future development. I think if P3 concentrated on making modules, just extra different modules that could be put out there, if they were able to make modules that were actually partially interchangeable, so it's more than just one module. it's like a module they send you a module but it's actually two they can do something like that to give you a bit more variability in the shots but then let people code whatever they want and make their own game and their own rules that is the type of thing that will make P3 more interesting than what it is currently I think that this approach is key to getting people to keep their P3s and I don't think that's Multimorphic's biggest issue, but I think that's where you really want, that's what the appeal of the platform is supposed to be. It's, hey, the P3 is bolted to the floor, a common term with pinball, even though people often end up not really meaning it, but you want P3 to be bolted to the floor because it's a platform, so it shouldn't get stale because there should always be stuff coming out for it. clearly, given the size of Multimorphic and the pace of which they release modules, they are not putting out the volume to achieve that. So you need third-party developers, in my view, in order to make that attractive. Most of the minigames that we've seen so far on P3 I do not think help bolt the game to the floor. They're nice little sweeteners to maybe be like, if I get this and all these modules, I'm going to get rocks and I'm going to get barnyard. But rocks and barnyard and aren't strong enough games for people to keep the entire $10,000-plus platform. And Ranger in the Ruins might not be either, but it's another substantive thing that people will be like, yes, but I've got Cosmic Cart Racing module in. I'm done playing races for the day. Let's just start up Ranger in the Ruins and play that while I've got it turned on. I see the attraction with that. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of attraction in that. But, well, I don't think Ranger in the Ruins by itself will help sell units. I think if they've got 15 of these or 20 of these sitting on there, so it's like, oh, you don't feel like playing Heist right now, that's cool. We've got this whole other game you can just, you know, key up the menu and go, I want to go play Doodleberry. and now you're playing Doodleberry without doing anything else. And especially if you were looking at with rules that are completely different and different goals and different targets, you're playing another game. You know the shots are all identical.
    13:58
    Now here's something I should have asked Nick, and I wish I did, but we're recording now, so I'm going to have to speculate.
    14:05
    Are there demos? I don't think there are, and that's why I'm bringing it up. this is where my video game side comes out I'm very uncomfortable being told that I have to spend $150 on something just to try it yeah no I understand that so I hope they're demos and if they're not demos then I hope they add the ability and we know how to do them like Zen Studios and Pimble Arcade give you the perfect example of you either do a times demo where that person is allowed to play for 90 seconds or whatever or what I think the video game pinball people typically do, which is the game stops after you reach a certain score. Right. You just need to give them a taste. And the reason why I don't think there's a demo is, I did watch when Buffalo Pinball streamed this, and there was a giveaway. But the giveaway was, I thought, a little odd. It was someone was going to be randomly, they were going to randomly draw for someone with a P3 to get a time-limited copy. So a demo. Exactly. And I was like, the giveaway isn't a copy of the game. I mean, I would have given away a copy of the game to someone watching.
    15:18
    And I think nothing to me quite said, we haven't sold enough P3s yet. Like, we can't even be willing to give you away one viewer who already owns the machine a permanent copy. We're just going to give you one that works for the weekend.
    15:32
    The idea of a demo is really good. Normally demos aren't giveaways Normally demos are what? I mean, back when the Xbox 360 You won the demo To me, it's so different from the video game side Because back when Xbox 360 was out And they've loosened on this And I understand Because it can be a chore for programmers But when the Xbox 360 was the current-gen console Microsoft mandated any game that was sold Through the digital store Had to have a demo had to for free that people could try. I shouldn't have to say for free with a demo, but... Apparently you do. But if this is going to be more and more of a thing, I really, you know, just Dennis's personal recommendation, I really think Multimorphic needs to consider having demos available so that people who own the modules can actually download and try the game. Because just, I mean, I don't know about you, and maybe it's how I was brought up, But I would be really pissed if I downloaded Ranger in the Ruins and hated it and had spent $150 and couldn't get a refund and couldn't sell it. Couldn't sell it unless I sold the whole system. I mean, and that's the thing is even Steam and the various other video game digital libraries have gotten to the point where they have very robust return policies. And there may be a return policy with Multimedia. I did not explore that either. I don't want to say that, I'm just saying this would be what would upset me if I didn't have a demo and I didn't have the ability to return the game in very short order.
    17:11
    So, I'm just, you know, because this is new that, you know, with Multimorphic, we're blending things from the pinball side and things from the video game side. And there's stuff that flies in pinball that does not fly with video game people and vice versa. Isn't that true? Oh, yes. Very that true. So, anyway, congratulations, Nick. I thought the game looked fun. I think the idea of a roguelike, by default, it's one ball play, tilt ends game, which Nick crammed in his EM philosophy to the title, which, hey, it's his design, he might as well. Give people a taste for that stuff. I think that's where P3 can shine, so I think it's cool that it came out. I do, too.
    17:52
    Well, another pinball topic, fun with bonus. So this kind of broke when a lot of the deep root pinball stuff broke a couple weeks ago. That is Steve Bowden. He's decided to transition his Fun With Bonus site.
    18:05
    He had been doing daily pinball updates on it for over eight years. And so he has decided that it's not going to be daily anymore. It will still exist. And it's also going to have more of a focus on stuff going on with Deep Root because he does rules design for Deep Root Pinball. And so Fun With Bonus, I would go to the website occasionally. I rely much more on the Fun With Bonus Facebook pages, actually, than I do going to the site. But obviously, you know, I think some people are disappointed. I think after eight years, I totally understand Steve shaking this up.
    18:43
    No, I can see it. And I, you know, I guess in a way, I suppose I, like the others, I'm a little sad because change is difficult. And it was always nice to know there was going to be the Fun With Bonus update. But he's still going to – it's not going to be pure deep root. He's still keeping the pinball dictionary and all that. So I think it's fine. I think it's going to – I think it can work out with the shift.
    19:10
    It's his side. He can do whatever he wants with it. Exactly. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm supportive of him wanting to shift it up. And thank you for eight years of doing what it had been. Agreed. Because those were, that's a long time. And during a lot of those years, there wasn't a lot of other options to really stay informed on pinball. You know, there wasn't a This Week in Pinball.
    19:37
    You basically had fun with bonus and pinball news back when you go way back there. And pinball news is not daily. So, let's go to our final pinball topic, Tony. It's the one I know you've been dying to discuss. Oh, have I? Have I really? You have. I know you have. but we're in an awkward position because everyone else has talked about this already.
    20:00
    And I don't want to be too... And you've talked about this in multiple other settings already. I have, but not... Okay. Yes. The right answer is what you said, I have. However, so I have now spoken about Deep Root Pinball's reveal four times. but counting or not counting this one counting not counting this one but counting our last episode where we were ready for the reveal and we talked about the readiness for the reveal yeah and then i had the pinball show readiness for the reveal the same day so that was almost that that's that was the twofer and then i was on and i do have a link in the show notes to this i was on the loser kid pinball podcast with zach minnie as well where we talked about the day the reveal was supposed to happen, and then there was no reveal. It was a non-reveal, and they announced how there wasn't going to be a reveal. So, talk about that. And then it was the next day that this info dump happens, which is also linked in the show notes, the details about Deep Root that This Week in Pinball was allowed to post after some images of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland leaked, after the announcement that the reveal was now a non-reveal happened. Do you think if that leak had not happened That this info dump would have happened? I do not I don't either And so last week's pinball show Was the only episode where I actually spoke at all About what was in the info dump It's not tagged as a deep dive I'm just going to call it the info dump I know Jeff didn't label it like that Its official title is Deep Root Pinball Platform Pinball Pin Armor Ecosystem Future Games And Future Plans I think InfoDunk is a pretty succinct way of describing that title. Yeah. I think that definitely cuts it down. So I've got those links in the show notes for folks. I want to just walk through the InfoDunk itself, you know, the meat. This is what most of the other things have covered. So we don't have to spend tons of time on it. But then I think where we can have an interesting discussion, because I know you have thoughts on it, Tony, is about how this whole thing was handled. I don't mean the info dump itself. I mean bringing in the deep six, as they call themselves, the deeper decision to bring them out, the decision initially to not reveal and announce it, then the decision to reveal. I think there's a lot there that's mismanaged and is worth talking about.
    22:35
    I would say so. Spoilers. I don't think it was handled well. I have my rant cap on oh, this is going to be a juicy EGP alright, so let's start with some of the details from the info dump itself so, first thing is the cabinet back box so, I I'm trying to, like, some of it I already knew what the display was supposed to kind of look like from the prototype.
    23:17
    We've not seen images of the, I guess, standard, the low-tier arcade edition, what their pro is, which is supposed to look more like a traditional back box with a hinge bar. Instead, we saw what I call... So it doesn't look like the Aquarian? Well, no. It still has the panoramic wrapped backlit artwork. So that part still looks like an aquarium. The part that's different is how the display isn't on the, like, two pegs, and then the Translight is above it on two more pegs. Right. What I call the Aftor style. Because I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of Aftor. There's a pinball parts manufacturer called Wyco, and they made a pinball machine in the 80s. It's actually the first alphanumeric displayed pinball machine. and it's called Aftor and it kind of looks like that like the back box is on like these posts so if you ever go to IPDD you can take a look at Aftor but anyway so yeah so it's the stacking style with that but it's still not the panoramic back box yeah that's on all of them so I guess what are your thoughts on that I mean on any of it I know there were a lot of people who raged against this whole back box design.
    24:34
    It doesn't bother me. I think it looks a little goofy. I have questions about how well it will hold up and how well it folds and moves and stuff, but I don't actually have a huge issue with it. Just like the whole aquarium wraparound transite thing, I don't have a problem with. And honestly, 100% honesty, I kind of like this narrow, wide LED because it gives you the feel of the old DMDs while giving you the abilities of the LEDs. So it doesn't look like they just strapped a computer monitor into the back box. I kind of like it. Oh, I see. You mean the LCD display. Yeah, yeah. I was saying LED. LCD. Well, it might be LED tech. I don't know. It's probably.
    25:22
    It's plasma. Liquid plasma. But I like, I actually appreciate that. It gives it a feel that I enjoy.
    25:36
    As for the rest of that, I can take it or leave it. I'd like to see an actual picture of the normal one to see which one I like more. Yeah, I would as well. I have a suspicion I will probably like the more traditional, and I think that's just biased towards the traditional, quite frankly. I can admit that of myself. The aquarium-style Translight, I'm fine with it.
    26:02
    It's different. It's weird. My lineup's full of different and weird. You know, I've got Premiere Game where you've got the speakers above the Translight, and some people think that looks really weird, and everyone has their own different style. It's, I, the app tour go with the posts. I just, it's a little, I'm assuming it's not flimsy. That would be my functional concern. But it's a little, I think it's a little weird to have, like, I don't see the value in having the space between it and the display. But like you, I do like the display. I like the display dimensions. I like the idea of having the panorama style. I see value in the more traditional shape like that Stern does and JJP does. But what I like about this is not only is it reminiscent in a fun way of the DMD era, it also means you still have a very significant Translight portion. That's my big problem with JJP games is I don't care for their Translights at all because I feel that they've given way too much real estate to the screen. Yeah, I think in J.J.P. they even need to go smaller and give more trans lights or just get rid of the trans lights entirely and just make that entire thing a screen, top to bottom. Yeah, and it's like when it's turned off, it's so boring when it looks like, oh, I just have a TV mounted on a pinball machine. Whereas Stern's size is okay. But, yeah, when you look at it, when I look at it, I'm like, yeah, you went with, so you went with the standard laptop monitor. Right. I get it. I totally get it. I'm not even critiquing that they should change it. I think they're doing what makes sense for them. But this, at least, it has a good throwback feel to it, while still being big enough, I think, to be meaningful on information and stuff. I mean, I get that the bigger the screen, the more and more stuff you can constantly keep up on display. And some high-end competitive players might really like that they don't have to cycle and say, how many more Oompa Loompas do I need to collect or whatever? But I don't read most of that, quite frankly. When I'm actively playing, I barely look at it. Yeah, I prefer things like with it to say like, or especially say it like, well, I'm locked. Like, I need visual cues or audio cues and little brief visuals. As long as there's a way to display it when you trap up, it's not a big deal. And that's just like that. I mean, how often do you see even high-level players playing Jurassic Park or Star Wars missing the shooting stuff? Because there's no audio, and it's just up there on the screen, and they're not actively looking at the screen. So they'll miss, you know, the raptor running across the screen or the stormtroopers all lined up for you to go hit the shoot button and stuff like that. because you can't stare at the screen unless you're one of those people, and there are full-on people out there who can have a,
    29:00
    they don't focus on as small of parts inside their field of vision, and they can track things in a much wider pattern than some people, than most people can. But I know for me, I'm not one of those people.
    29:14
    Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think because we talked about the difference in the designs, so there are going to be different models, and I'm going to kind of just follow the TWIP listing, so we're going to talk about that a little bit more later. So people are like, what do you mean by, like, different editions? We will get into that, but I don't want to cover it in the back box section. Another item, though, that was shown when they were showing the back box and cabinet, are lift glass. So they have, and this is true for all the models, It's going to be a hinged assisted lift and drop glass frame and lock bar seal.
    29:50
    I am perfectly fine with this. I've heard and read complaints from people who are concerned about how hard it will be to replace the glass if something happens to the glass in such the setup, and I'm sure we'll find out eventually if there hasn't been an info dump already. but honestly most of the time I've heard or talked to people where there's been an issue with the glass being broken it's because they pulled the glass out and had it set down while they were working on the machine and it fell or someone stepped on it or something happened to it.
    30:24
    I think this is just an obvious thing that as I recall from other stuff I've read was done at one time in the past. Yes, yes. Bally did this starting in the late 60s and did it for several years. The only question is how annoying and how hard is it going to be to replace those gas shocks? Because anybody with an older car or with their hood or trunk on gas shocks know that those don't last. And that's been a big concern is, yeah, they've got that hydraulic gas shock style to hold the glass up, which the old Bally's did not do that. I believe they would just use a kickstand style. So another thing that I'm curious about would be the – so I agree with you. The replacement of a glass, yeah, it's going to be more challenging because it's not just slide in, slide out. But like you noted, it should also need to be replaced far less. So, yeah, it'll probably take some work, but you shouldn't need to do it. I mean, already I don't hear stories from people about how, oh, I broke my pinball glass again. And it doesn't happen all the time. And when it does happen, like I said, it's almost always, oh, I had the glass out and it fell. Or I had the glass out and when I was moving something else, I stepped on it and snapped it.
    31:47
    Yeah, I know some people have also raised the concern about low ceilings and lifting the glass. But this seems to lift in the same manner that the play field does. So I understand that that could very well be a challenge. But if you can't lift your play field up, in a way, I mean, I guess it depends how you choose to work on the pinball machine. It's like a pinball machine should be in a room where you can lift the play field up. Maybe I should just phrase it like that. Well, the thing is, is looking at the one picture on this weekend pinball, it doesn't look like the top of it's that much higher than what the top of a topper would be. Yeah. But I do understand that a lot of people, I wear in my, I can pull them out so I have access in the higher area of the ceiling. But due to my HVAC ducts where I line up my games, like when I had that at East Jurassic Park, I probably could not have fit its topper there. Right. For example. Whereas I probably could fit a stern pinball topper on one of my stern pros.
    32:50
    It just, so, you know, it does depend a little bit. But, yeah, I agree. It's not much higher than that.
    32:57
    But, yeah, overall, I think the idea of lift glass, I like the idea. My concern would be more on price, but we can talk about that later. The other thing that I would wonder about, and this may not be an issue, it may be fun, but where Bally had an issue, I think, was when Bally did it, the glass was smaller than standard. so you couldn't just get pinball glass you would have to order a custom cut sheet if you needed it replaced. I want to know if this uses a standard sheet of pinball glass. If it does, then great because you know you have a cheap easy option if you were to somehow damage it or want to change it for Invisiglass or something If it doesn that makes this a major negative in my mind Yeah Well because that where I could see people be like I want to know how hard it is to change the glass because I want to put Invisiglass in because I don't want to see glare. Right. Well, Invisiglass is, I mean, that's like, it's not like, I can't call Olathe Glass and get Invisiglass, I don't think. I can call them and get a custom sheet of tempered glass cut. I've done it before. Or pinball, I've done it. so I wouldn't be worried about the size other than it's one more thing you have to think about. You have to know the dimensions if you do need it replaced and I can list that in the manual but I think for convenience and the fact that people like high end specialized glass for pinball machines at this point it would behoove them to use a standard dimension.
    34:25
    I don't disagree. Okay. Let's see. Some other stuff here I don't really care about. They do offer anti-reflective glass themselves which They also noted fingerprint-resistant glass. Is that the same as anti-reflective? My understanding is anti-reflective glass by the other manufacturers is very fingerprint-show-offy.
    34:46
    That's the technical term. I don't know. I just, I literally have no clue. I think the next big thing, and the one that definitely has had the most discussion on Pennside that I've noted, is the pen bar. Jeff in the This Week in Pinball InfoDop described it as the most intriguing innovation on deep root pinball machines so nutshell summary horizontal screen, it's in the lock down bar area on the pinball machine it comes on all the models it is a touch screen it will display a lot of information so that's where you go in to do your system testing, to change your gameplay settings, to do your custom game settings, and then, because it's a touch screen, it also will allow you to have interaction with the gameplay. So, like, you could have a button for the MagnaSafe be on the touch, be on the pin bar on the touch screen area, or you could have it display animations, or you could have it be the video mode, if you were playing a video mode. So, in terms of what all it's got going on for it.
    35:58
    Obviously, it's significantly different than anything else we've seen in pinball. The feature list in the info dump included things like it's easily replaceable, it has up to a five-panel play mode layout, you can handle a number of players through it, you could go and the games can have achievements, score and leaderboard can be done through it. And then, of course, all the maintenance stuff that I mentioned, audits, things that you'd normally expect from the menu settings.
    36:31
    So, they did say that it does seal up, so, you know, protect from spills and stuff. What are your thoughts on the pin bar? Because this has been really controversial. It has. And I'm going to go on the I want to see it list, but I will say just right off the top, just hearing about it, considering the amount of abuse the apron gets on every pinball machine I've ever seen in use, it better be super tough. And it better be able to handle a lot of abuse, because that's the most abused section of any pinball machine I've ever seen.
    37:14
    I've never been a fan of Stern's little button there, so I'm not sure that I'm going to be any more of a fan of having a touch capacity there for extra buttons for gameplay. Though with the positioning, I can see having a screen there for stuff like score and extra, an extra screen kind of like on Aliens that was in the play field where there was a screen visible right where you looked at it, stuff like that I can see that in finding good places to put a screen like that I'm just not sold on a touch capable screen in a spot that's going to take so much abuse and I'm glad they say that it's easily replaceable but is it easily replaceable because it's going to have to be replaced a lot, and what's that going to cost?
    38:22
    Yeah, that's a good question. And we don't have any details on that yet. So I know a lot of people online have focused more about the lock bar portion around it and how the edges seem sharp, and a lot of references to Stellar Wars lockdown bar. that whatever that is, that is a problem that they can fix so in terms of and that's something that honestly it can look that way but it might not be that way until you get hands on it you're not going to know yeah I'm not willing to proclaim that it's the pain bar as some people have been calling it as a concept I actually really like the idea I hate the menu system of pinball. It feels so antiquated. And I've had so many different ones. I mean, like, so, like, with CERN and the four buttons, it's reasonably navigable. Like, I've done games where they had three buttons to navigate that stuff, and you're like, holy crap, this is so crude. But it still takes forever to cycle through to find what you want and then make your change, and then, you know, did you hit the right button, and then, you know, save it, and then move on. and doing through a touchscreen where you're seeing those options will assuredly be faster. The issue is, most of the time, how often are you going into that menu system? Like, I usually go in once or twice to make the changes that I want, like change the difficulty of the game. At this point, once I have my game set up, I usually only go back in the menu system if I lost settings for some reason, like a battery change, which is usually not really all that applicable in modern games. Or if we're doing like KC Pinball Championship or something, I might go in and adjust software settings to make the games harder.
    40:17
    And that's about it. Now, this obviously is doing more than just the menus. But for me, the logic of the touch bar was most obvious for navigating the menus, the audits, things of that nature. Dennis, give me a second. I'm going to blow your mind.
    40:33
    Okay. what if I told you that there was a way that you could connect a touch-capable screen to a machine that would be password protected and let you get in and make adjustments on the fly without needing something physically part of the machine? And that's funny because that was what I was about to mention. At work, we have Bluetooth.
    41:00
    I mean, at work, I have a ton of equipment. I have gas monitors. I have actuators for valves that literally are Bluetooth connected where I can walk down there, I can pull my phone out, and I can connect to that valve via Bluetooth, put in the password that gives me access to actually make adjustments to that valve, and change how that valve moves, when it moves, and all that from my phone. so I could do all of that without having a fragile device sitting on the front of my machine. Yes. And that's where mentioning all that stuff and the touchscreen and the settings, it's like, why not just have a Bluetooth setup and integrate it with a phone? And quite frankly, why haven't any other pinball manufacturers done it either? No, it's a valid question. And it's something that, I mean, I've never brought it up before because I don't get in and mess with the menus on pinball machines. What, your Campus Queen menu you haven't had to go into? Yeah, my EM does not have that option. But this is something that we've done at work for years, at least for the last five years. I've had a lot of equipment that making adjustments. I mean, we have gas monitors to monitor for hazardous gases because of the job, and every single one of them that we put in, at least for the last five years, if not for the last decade, to do their calibrations, to do anything with them, you walk up and you use Bluetooth to connect your phone to it, and you just sit there on your phone, and you do all of it that way. All of it. It makes no sense to me why that's not an already existent thing to be on pinball machines, other than the fact that I didn't think of it. Well, I mean, let's be fair. Pinball is still, still making us use USB sticks to update the code instead of having the ability to, you know, then stick a dongle in and hook the thing up on Wi-Fi and download this stuff automatically. Well, and there are pinball machines already out there with Bluetooth connectivity. Yeah, dialed in. Dialed in? With your phone.
    43:22
    Why did they not put the control menu? I'm sure it's because just nobody thought about it. But the thing is, is this seems like an answer to a problem that has better answers that have already happened in the wider world and just not been applied to this situation. I agree, though. They are trying to have it be more than where I see the most immediate value, which would be an operator on site. So, obviously, it being a touchscreen means the gameplay interactions or stuff. And so, like, one of the arguments, I believe, from when they were shown it was that, like, they're doing MagnaSave. It's not going to be an action button in the middle of the lock bar like it is on Black Knight Sword of Rage. They don't have to put in a separate cabinet buttons near the flippers. You can play the flippers, and your thumbs are able, for most people, to reach the edges of the pin bar, and you'll be able to click the MagnaSave buttons without having to take your hand away from the flipper buttons. And so that's where the touchscreen adds in onto that.
    44:23
    If there are concerns, as you noted, the highway and the display of information on the play field, where they had the screen in the play field and how you could show things because when you're trapped up or looking down at your flippers, you can see the pin bar. That helps also address the issue of they have less screen real estate because of the wide panorama they went with in the back box. So now they have value in wanting a second screen because their first screen isn't that big. so now you've got that for showing that people aren't going to want to take their phone out and set it on top of the apron to watch that while they play pinball so I totally I think that the Bluetooth phone thing should be done by everyone including Deep Root for the menu stuff but I see where they're thinking it does that but it does that but it seemed like they're trying to solve a whole bunch of different things with this but it seems like they could do that real estate without having to go to the more fragile touchscreen. Sure. I mean, they could have replaced the apron area with a screen under the glass for the display stuff. Yeah. It wouldn't have had to have been in the lock bar. But this is one of those things we're just going to have to wait and see how it actually works in the wild. Wait and see. We'll have to see how it is in the wild. Yeah. Because I know I have never in my life seen somebody get angry and strike the apron with both their fists as they turn and walk away from the game. Never. Not ever. Never, ever. And we'll have to see how well it handles to that kind of abuse.
    45:55
    And I guess it wasn't working right when they went out there, so yay? That's my understanding. Let's talk about the play field. Okay. We know from the interview that Robert Mueller did with us a few years ago that Robert hates dimples. And Deep Root was committed to solving the dimple problem. So much so that their playfields could be smacked with a hammer and not leave a dimple. And thus, Pin Armor was born. And they showcased the Pin Armor during this event. And so they took a play field. I believe it was one of the play fields that Merco made for them that was used in one of the prototypes that was shown last year, one of the Raza prototypes, and then one with a pin armor.
    46:43
    They got to hit it with a hammer. They got to, they had a couple of devices that dropped a pinball from a set height and then a kind of massive, huge pinball from a set height. and when they did those tests it was indicated that the hammer test which was a 16 ounce hammer and the huge pinball which I guess was 750 grams in weight and the regular pinball all left some form of dent or crater in the regular playfield, the prototype playfield and it did not leave a dent or crater in the pin armor but everyone noted that when you looked at the game with the pin armor, it appeared as if the coating was an orange peel texture. It was not smooth. And you could feel that texture when you ran your hand along it. But that texture at play field did not affect gameplay. Like the ball rolled around normally like you would expect. They couldn't notice any differences. So what do you think of pin armor?
    47:47
    I think until they get rid of the orange peel effect, it's utterly useless. Look at the rage people had. It doesn't matter how strong it is. I loved this. And Robert did acknowledge, according to Jeff with This Week in Pinball, that this was an early version of pin armor. But I just thought it was so, it's like troll slash big brain by going, hey, you can't have dimples if dimples are already there.
    48:17
    Because that's the whole thing with the orange peel. People complain about Getting dimples in their play field And then people reassure them and say Well once you get enough dimples over time It all sort of evens out You get an orange peel like texture If you look at an angle at my Star Trek Or my Walking Dead You will see that orange peel texture From those dimples in my play fields You'll see them So here we go We can't put in any new dimples You get a pre-dimple play field And again the dimples and whether they're orange peel or not on regular play fields, they don't affect how the ball plays. It still rolls smooth. So, and this was the same. Yeah, you can even, you can feel that it's not smooth, but the ball still does what you expect the ball to do. I'm like, I have never personally, and I know different people have different views. This is my view. I've never personally have understood the obsession with being upset about dimples. I guess I understand it in that some people want this aesthetic purity, but this is not art. It's a game. It's going to get wear. It's going to have wear. To me, this is like getting upset when you play baseball and your back gets scuffed.
    49:30
    It's exactly like that. It's like anything in that situation is it's going to take wear, and that's normal. and if you don't want it to take wear you need to do like the whole meme of you know grandma's special sitting room where the couch has the plastic throw over it and everything's got all the heavy protection on it that's only pulled off once a year when certain special people are coming over to sit in a special sitting room and the whole place goes back on lockdown and is off limits that's the only way you're going to maintain that kind of thing. Yeah. If you actually use and love something, it will take wear. Yeah, it's true for all sorts of stuff. So, I just, I mean, we'll see. Roberts said it was an early version. Assuming that they will ultimately get it smooth, then he'll have something that I think... If it was an early version, why were they doing a reveal? We'll be talking about that.
    50:35
    But, I could see that will be attractive to some people. It won't be attractive to me. that will be attractive to some people. I mean, there are a lot of people in pimple that it's almost a visceral hate of dimples. Just a visceral.
    50:49
    That's true. That is true. To me, it's weird. To them, it's normal. Speaking of normal, audio. So, standard, Deeper Games are going to come with a 2.1 audio sound system. Which makes sense to me. But they offer an upgraded audio package. I guess it's called the Aural Envelope. How do I pronounce A-U-R-A-L? Oral? It's Oral. Oral? Coral? Tell your mom to quit driving. She never looks and flips the car. Coral? Glad she's dead.
    51:24
    Oh, Rick. Quit being so bitter. Coral, how'd your mom get pregnant while I was in a coma? The envelope, which includes a full-range 4.1 sound system. and the way this is done is there are two mid-range up-fired mid-range as it was described speakers, they're on the sides of the left and right of the coin door and it's supposed to channel the sound using the player's body up to their ears yeah my balls will like that I was going to ask, what do you think of the crotch speakers?
    52:02
    sure whatever My biggest question when I saw it was, does that make it even easier for people to break into the cabinet?
    52:12
    I don't know if it would. I have seen a number of people ask about cheese hits going into those from kids. Oh, yeah. Oh, kids are terrible. Okay, this is going to be a lot of fun on location because kids are going to want to stick things in those little slots. Yeah, I'm not.
    52:31
    Maybe that's an upgrade that only homeowners want. Maybe that's it. Maybe. I didn't think much one way or the other on it. I don't mind it. I don't usually, I have never actually done anything special to improve the sound quality on a pinball machine. Well, here's the thing. Here's just a whole side point is it would make more sense to me if you have people who are really concerned about the audio quality that much that, once again,
    53:07
    lots and lots and lots and lots of Bluetooth headsets and Bluetooth speakers are in existence. Yep, and we'll be right doing that now. In some order, why couldn't I just throw on my not-bows, because they cost $25, noise-canceling Bluetooth headset and sync it up to my machine and sit there and play it, if I care. Because here's the thing, I don't actually care that much about it. I am not an audiophile. I am not that person who can sit there with $500 headsets complaining that, oh, the tones are slightly off. I can't tell. I worked in aviation for 15 years. sound is sound. I don't have any of those special super hearing caps of different tones and melodies. You're going to make Nick Schell so sad. Because I think he's an audiophile. No, I understand, but again, I worked in aviation for 15 years. Even if I was an audiophile, that stuff is gone.
    54:21
    Oh, sad. That's just part of the thing. To me, it's not important. It seems like there is a better, easier answer. Okay.
    54:35
    A few more things. I probably breezed through a lot of this. There are details on the electrical system. I didn't really care about any of that. There was some stuff about assisted leveling, one person's setup. I mean, you can already set up a pinball one person, but it's not the easiest thing. There was Pinpod. That's my actual favorite announcement. Pinpod! Pinpod? Pinpawed. It's a crate with latches. I've now seen on Pinside someone else found another company that does the same design, and they've wondered if they just bought it from them. It's entirely possible. Here's the thing. The actual interesting thing I see here is, like, the one person set up in the assisted leveling is, I would really, really, really like that if it was like the RVs with their leveling system where you just hit the button and it goes ting, ting, ting, ting, ting, ting, ting, ting, until it's level. that would be hilarious and awesome to watch I would occasionally mislevel it hit the button just to watch it jump up and down and around but if you had the ability to do that automatically you could then work that into the game so during gameplay when stuff is going on the left side would drop there you go there's a pinball innovation give me credit but otherwise there you go A few other things, software, so they've got PinRDE, PinRide, PinPri, I don't know how to say it, Pinball Rapid Development Engine, so they've got a point-and-click device that's supposed to help develop the core framework of a pinball title really fast. so a lot of tracking on what's going on under the glass apparently the system uses Unity so there's that there's supposed to be a way through what's called Omnichannel to allow you to access your scores on DeepRoot machines and log in to them anywhere in the world even if it's not on the internet. That's weird there's PinAccess which is a mobile web friendly offering to bring the scores and leaderboards and community features out in another way. What's that going to cost? Yeah, I'm going to hit on that, too. There's shot logs, scoring features, and then I wanted to hit on the three-model system. So, just like everybody else, Tony, we've got to have three models. You know, if they wanted to be innovative, they should have gone with four.
    56:59
    Or two, I don't know. Or two. Spooky used to do two, so maybe not. Just go straight to five. Wasn't there four versions of Beatles? Or was there just three? Just three. Okay. There should have been four. There should have been the pro model. And now all of the gold models are, like, selling used for $5,500 because all that money was licensed and no one cares. Yeah. Yeah, now Beatles is actually almost within range to buy.
    57:28
    It's a fun game. Yeah, it is. But it wasn't that price fun. No. So here, three models and brand new names, Tony. We can't, you know, we can't. Of course, because there's the arcade edition. That's the pro.
    57:46
    The X edition. That's the premium. And the extra edition. That's the LE. It's so stupid. It is what it is.
    57:57
    This falls just into the same thing like Xbox's naming structure. Yeah. Yes. I got the new one. No, no, you got the, you got the, no, sorry, man. You screwed up. you ordered the wrong one. This is just...
    58:13
    Pro, premium, Ellie. So easy. Yeah, but that means Stern wins because Stern got to define it. That's fine. No, it makes them sad. They don't want to be sad. One, two, and three. It doesn't matter. It doesn't need some fancy... Extra edition!
    58:29
    Collector's edition! How is your collector's edition lower than your special edition? I mean, what... On this, my only real... I mean, acknowledging that they're going to use different naming. My only issue is, I don't like X edition and Extra edition.
    58:46
    Extra edition doesn't mean anything to me, and Extra, as you noted, the Microsoft Xbox thing, it's too similar of a name. Arcade edition I get. Arcade Pro model, Operator model, Arcade model. I get that. I don't understand this other stuff. No. I would restructure those last two names. I would. And maybe call Extra LE, if you want, and you can still keep the X edition.
    59:09
    Yeah. I mean, lots of manufacturers are using LE, so it's okay. That doesn't make Stern win. Everyone wins. Yeah. Before going to the future titles, I want to start. So with all of this, let me tell you my main concern. One of the things that Robert was known for saying early on in describing what part of the plans of Deep Root Pinball was, I believe the example was, you know, like Ferrari quality Kia price. here, and that's where I'm worried. We got the pin armor. We got the changes in the back box, and I don't know if that's more or less expensive. We've got the pin bar, obviously. We've got the lift glass system. So, all of that, just those items.
    60:00
    There's no way a pin bar is cheaper than a traditional lockdown bar with, like, four simple buttons inside the coin door. Right? I agree. Okay. Yeah, it's like we got rid of the start button and some tiny little buttons. I'll show you the little buttons. They're very simple little buttons that are inside versus a full touchscreen system. And then lift glass with the shocks.
    60:22
    There's no way that's cheaper than just putting in two plastic side channels where you slide glass in, right? Correct. And there's no way that orange peel pin armor is cheaper than just slapping some automotive clear on, right?
    60:38
    Correct. Okay, so let's focus on those three things. So given all this, my concern is, because of this quest for innovation, there is no way that Deep Root Pinball can be competitively priced with especially Stearns Pro models, unless they are sacrificing on some other side. And the only things I can think of they could sacrifice on are licenses, which, looking at their future titles, has been done, and or the mechs and what's actually going into the gameplay experience under the glass. That's what bothers me. Here's the thing. When he said Ferrari quality at a Kia price, he literally meant a Kia price. It costs as much as a Kia. That's fair enough. I mean, you can buy a brand new 2020 Kia Rio for $15,800.
    61:35
    We've seen pinball machines go for $15,000 before. Okay, yeah. I'm not saying these will, but no, I agree with you. There's no way they are going to underprice pros. To me, it almost seems like... I don't think they're going to underprice premiums. I don't see that. I'm not sure that's really the goal. So in a way, because there's a lot of talk in the article about, you know, it almost seems like Deep Root isn't so much interested in manufacturing pinball as it is manufacturing innovations that they then want to license to other pinball manufacturers. That makes a lot of sense. In the way this has been run and the way this has happened, it makes a lot of sense. but I don't know that any of their innovations are really worth licensing. Do you want to license orange peel clear coat? But if they solve the orange peel, I could see it.
    62:37
    I could see them think that someone might want to buy the ability to do that, just like I could see someone maybe saying, okay, well, people, we need a second screen. Let's do the pin bar. Will they be able to have all this other stuff going along with it? So, yay. I don't know. But that's just my concern is there's so much innovation here that I'm wondering if they're going to be so priced out of the market. Like there's too much money in the innovation before you even start talking about the game itself.
    63:13
    Right. And when you're talking about it, you're 100% correct on that. I'll just leave it there for now okay so let's run through because this is part again info dump and I don't know why they dumped all of this and I'm going to talk about that when we cover how this was handled but so a whole bunch of their future titles have now a little more information available so just run through them real quick so we already know about Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land that's the first game that this was really light on details about by the way all this info dump. Not very detailed on Raza at all. There were no mentions of things that you might want to know about such a game, such as gameplay. Yeah. So, future plan titles. There's Fire and Brimstone. We already knew the name of that one. Robert Mueller's designing it. Concept. Relive the Old Testament alongside the prophets of ancient times. Build up faith or suffer the fire and brimstone of the wrath of God. With the future of being the first multi-dominational religious pinball game. first, I just want to say the way this was listed the future planned titles feels like this was all elevator pitches that was purely designed to see what the buzz on social media was so they knew where to concentrate on next well I do think these were pulled from a PowerPoint slideshow they definitely were pulled from a PowerPoint slideshow but I mean that's how it feels like that was the whole point is to get a oh, we need to concentrate on this one I don't know. But fire and brimstone. Okay. Is that a feature?
    64:56
    I thought it was interesting to call that a feature. How is that a feature? I'm trying to think, who was it that I was listening to that they described it in a way very similar to how I would describe it. But politics and religion are third rail topics. I don't think you ever want them in a pinball machine. That would be how I would describe it. I'm looking forward to social security policy the pinball machine. Yes. That would be exciting. That would be $150 on people.
    65:30
    I wonder if I could get that much for it if I designed it. Food truck. Designed by Barry Osler. Concept. Get orders filled quickly and accurately to keep your social media reviews up for maximum scores, watch out. Your competitor, the Roach Coach, will try to steal your customers and look for any opportunity to post bad reviews and sabotage your business. Features. Some cool toys and mechs along with a fast-paced visual ordering queue. Some cool toys? Probably not the best way to describe it. Also, the whole concept of trying to keep your social media reviews up for maximum scores is a nice bit of philosophy that Deep Root should probably look into doing on their own. I thought the phrasing about some cool toys and mechs was a little concerning. Like, so only some of them are cool and the rest of them suck? You know, I don't think they meant to imply that.
    66:31
    Fast-paced visual ordering queue. So let me just ask you real quick. This one is called Food Truck. A lot of people have been making fun of it. And some are like, no, it's a sequel to Diner. Obviously, it's a sequel to Diner. But talking about licenses and the power, what if this had been overcooked? Oh, that would have been a totally different thing. See? FastPace Visual Ordering Q says overcooked to me. Yeah.
    66:57
    But I don't necessarily know that it would have made a great pinball machine. I don't know. But it would have had a lot more pull. Merlin's Arcade designed by John Norris concept medieval arcade Olympics set in the 80s train with Merlin and the Knights of the Round Table battle Morgan Le Fay to regain the Holy Poppin Grail features based on 8 ball Deluxe with flow and precision around NewMech unique gameplay HUD So it a remake of 8 Deluxe
    67:31
    In a way, it's an interpretation. The way this reads, I could be 100% wrong, because this is literally a single PowerPoint slide to go from. this reads like a remake to A-Ball Deluxe like Beatles was a remake to Sea Witch it's a remake and modernization of a classic game using new technology ok and I can see that here's what my here's my impression the unique gameplay was kind of captured and you can see this on the TWiP info dump with how the display's going to look. So it kind of is doing like an early Solid State style display, which I think is cool. I think that looks cool. I don't like how the concept was written. First, I'm assuming by medieval arcade Olympics set in the 80s means the 1980s. So I'm really confused about how this ties with Merlin and the Knights of the Round Table. I guess it's supposed to be campy and funny.
    68:38
    I think saying the Holy Poppin' Grail sounds stupid. So it's really stupid. And I don't want to be overly judgmental about that. Because this art is super familiar to me. It's the holy popping grail, dude. This art, like, screams to me.
    68:56
    8-Ball Deluxe is a great game. I love the 8-Ball Deluxe layout. But, and this one is noted as having flow and precision, which 8-Ball Deluxe is not known as a flow game. It was a fairly, it's a, it's fairly clunky. It's a, it's a, it's all about precision. You know, it's a stop and go shooter.
    69:17
    And you noted, you know, again, you're, and so that's really aligns well with your example of Sea Witch and Beatles, which, you know, Beatles really flowed up Sea Witch, which had a lot of clunk to it. My concern with this, and I know John Norris loves Eight Bubblers, one of his favorite games. but he's done designs built around it before and there are so many iterative games out there around 8-Ball Deluxe I really question do we need another one so while I look forward to it because I do like the layout and I'm curious the bottom line is there was 8-Ball Deluxe then Bally re-released it like a couple years later as 8-Ball Deluxe LE which is essentially the exact same game but with an ugly back box then John Norris did Bad Girls which was 8-Ball Deluxe with multi-ball and he mirrored the play field so everything on the left was on the right and vice versa and other than that it had a very target instead of inline drops and then John Borg though basically modifying John Norris' Golden Cue layout which was an 8-Ball Deluxe style game but was only prototyped and there were only like 8 or 10 versions that were made did what I used to own, Sharky's Shootout, which is 8-Ball Deluxe reimagined with RAM so it's been done a lot 8-Ball Deluxe has been done a lot so I'm a little concerned about revisiting that well it's a good well to go back to I guess it has been about 20 years since the last 8-Ball Deluxe clone but still we've seen it a lot more than a lot of other playfields so yeah I don't know next announcement, a licensed one The Who, Osler doing that I'm not going to read through the stuff but obviously, so that one might have potential. Everyone's going to dread hearing Pinball Wizard in it, though. I think if they were smart, that song would only play when you finish the wizard mode, like the final wizard mode. I agree with you. I think it plays whenever you hit game over, though. Probably. And it plays continuously during the attract mode. Yeah. Yes. Yes Another game concept Gladiator, Osler Design This is the plot of the movie Gladiator Except they renamed Maximus as Septimius But the feature is that it's based on the 3D Space Cadet layout The old Windows game Is that a feature? I guess I don't remember Space Cadet I'm like the one person who doesn't I mean, I remember Space Cadet I played a fair amount of Space Cadet. The base is going to have to be pretty darn loose, because there wasn't much to Space Cadet. Or else there's not much to this game.
    72:03
    Yeah, well, we'll have to see. There's Yukon Yeti. That's co-designed between Robert and Dennis Nordman.
    72:12
    Sequel to Whitewater. They make it very clear in the features. But the concept's a little different. It's set in the 1890s during the Yukon Gold Rush, and apparently the plot is some mischievous, lighthearted teenage Yukon Yeti feuds with gold miners. So it's supposed to have great multi-level flow, so the layout is, they're really leaning on that it's going to be reminiscent of Whitewater, which is a deeply popular game. I love Whitewater. I unashamedly love Whitewater. That's fine. the feature being listed as who doesn't want a sequel to Whitewater is just horrible. Well, that's the nod nod wink wink. We didn't get a license to do a sequel to Whitewater, but you're going to feel like you're playing Whitewater. I thought it was clever enough. Yeah. Once again,
    73:07
    their artist... Oh, I hate this. It's just... It's too cute. These little yetis, like, I want to spray them with a water bottle like they're bad cats. I'm like, psst, psst, psst, go away, you stupid little yeti.
    73:24
    Going around stealing, like, he's got a whole pizza over his head. That's not the proper way to carry that. A teenager isn't going to carry a pizza like that. He's going to eat the pizza and not tell you.
    73:38
    I don't know. Machine Age, that's a Dennis Nordman as well. concept has to do with dieselpunk heroes take on the world's greatest threat in a dystopian thriller.
    73:51
    And this is going to have an open layout with three first level level, excuse me, three first ever mechs. Now you like dieselpunk, don't you? I like dieselpunk. I'm a big fan. So conceptually the theme sounds fine. I like dystopian thrillers, so. Yeah. The concept, everything about the concept sounds interesting. Features, I don't know. Three first ever mechs I'm curious about, but it says open layout, which to me says it's going to be a fan. Right. Which is fine. And to be fair, we've seen what people call first ever versions of mechs sometimes, and they're literally just slightly modified versions of an old mech. So I'm not... And stunning video game quality animations. Anything with an LCD Should have video game quality animations This day and age I have not seen this Because I had just recorded the pinball show with Zach earlier today He did mention that someone with Deep Root Released a video Of some animation I think he thought Zach thought it was the Merlin arcade game And he was blown away by the animation It reminded him of the Dragon's Lair arcade game Quality Oh yay 1984 quality cel-shade animation. For Zach, he thinks like that. What he thinks is that cheap-looking, 3D animated, no facial expressions versus like a hand-drawn this actually looks like someone who cared style and had some money behind it. I haven't seen it myself, so I can't comment. All I'm saying is that he, so far, Zach thinks, and he's a bit of an animation snob, that Deep Root may actually have some decent animation. And they did have a studio working on their animations. It wasn't just like one guy. Right. So, well, I don't know. We'll see. But if we, well, maybe we'll see. I don't know. Next game didn't have a title. Let's not get carried away. Yeah, I know. Let's get a game out before we start worrying too much about what the other games look like. So there's an unnamed game being done by Osler, which is not the 3D Space Cadet layout, even though this one's concept is Space Pirates. But apparently it's a reimagining A revisioning So kind of like the 8-Ball Deluxe thing So now we're going to redo Gottlieb's Black Hole Okay I like Black Hole Yeah But it's a polarizing layout So we'll have to see how A lot of people hate it No, I think they should keep the name As Title TBD That would be funny Name that Name the pirate ship Title TBD Keep it Just roll with it Magic Girl Which we knew was coming Yeah The only thing that caught my eye of that Besides that you can see that they're not using The Yeti art anymore zombie Yeti art Which I think was a given was It's a choose your own adventure World I'm not quite sure They're going to have a Different style of gameplay for that So anyway there's that Then you know tag for Coming out and I guess coming out We don't really know It says 2021 but above that it says hey you guys Which Yeah So Goonies It's so Goonies And then Their last slide that they shared Were other titles in development Alice, that's I'm sure J-Pop's Alice in Wonderland Some combative racing license It's not going to be Mario Kart Well, if it's not Mario Kart If it's a licensed one Do you think it's Sonic All-Star Racing? I'm trying to think of like a sucky one It could be See, I would think Twisted Metal That's one I've heard several tell me It's like, name me a sucky one I think of Twisted Metal multiplex okay I don't know unless it's surely it's no I can't believe that it's based on the multiplex webcomic that would be insane it's probably based on like the movie theater well right let's see the multiplex webcomic is based around theater now I need to look because that comic has been done for years and years now I'm just imagining that it's like AMC theaters and you have to try and get people to come and watch your movies with COVID and let me I mean I just are they I'm looking it up in my old web comics I went through this entire, I read this comic from shortly after it started until it completed.
    78:30
    And I'm wanting to look at the art style because it's been years. That's the question is, does the art style match with some of the art styles we've seen in some of the other drawings? And the answer is no, not really. Just, I don't know. Yeah. Because they came out and did an audio, because they came out and did an animation based upon the webcomic. Oh, okay. No, I'm not. I don't think they're based off of Webcom. Yeah, probably not.
    78:57
    Board game license, that could be anything. That's probably cheap to get. It could be Monopoly, it could be... My guess would be Catan.
    79:05
    And an 80s movie license. I don't... It says other titles, so I'm guessing that's different than Goonies, which would be an 80s movie license. All right, so that's all that. So, all right, enough of the info dump. Let's talk about how this was handled. I guess I'll go ahead and say my bit first Okay And that's just Deep Root I think handled this As I noted on our last episode Like they did it To me the entirely wrong Almost every decision they made Was the wrong decision I don't think bringing out six Media influencer types When you weren't going to be ready to reveal Made any sense if they didn't know they weren't going to be ready to do any sort of reveal to the public before they brought them out. That's even worse because that means you needed these outsiders to tell you that you're not ready for primetime. And that's scary. That's super scary. So then they put out the announcement. They should have released something. And then they put out an announcement that they weren't going to release anything. Then a leak, which I am sure Deep Root is deeply furious about, actually got them to release something which has allowed them to save some face. Because now people don't think it's all entirely vaporware, but they have been noodling on stuff. But I look at this huge info dump here on Twip. It's way too much. They said way too much. I never expected all this stuff to have been covered in the reveal in the first place. It should have only been about Raza, of which there is a dearth of information about.
    80:45
    There's nothing about Raza gameplay here. It should have talked about Raza gameplay. And they probably should have talked about the cabinet, the back box, the lift glass, and the pin bar. That's it. Pin armor wasn't ready for primetime. It shouldn't have been discussed.
    80:58
    All these additional titles, other than naming, I said they should have named another title. They should have given us something. Could have been about Magic Girl or whatever they think is the next one that's going to, you know, give a little taste, could have been a little bit about the Firebird and Brimstone. There's no reason to talk about Merlin's Arcade and Food Truck and Gladiator and Title TBD. What are you doing? You've revealed, like, the next three years of your concepts, but there's nothing there. So all we're doing is making fun of them. This is a fire hose. they opened a fire hose because it was going so bad and they were being hurt so bad in social media and in the forums and everything that they opened the fire hose to blow out everything they could the whole purpose was to swamp the hobby the pinheads with so much information that even when they picked something to have an issue with it would be diluted because there were so many other things to talk about And then, of course, because of, and I know you have comments on this, so I'll allow this to be the segue to you. But while I do not blame Deep Root for wanting to put everyone under an NDA, I think there are some serious questions given how muzzled everyone has been about being able to explain anything that they saw that it really raises some questions about exactly what do we expect from pinball media and what they're doing, because we know on the video game side that there are situations, like, where you get early access to a game to prepare your review and you're under embargo. But this wasn't an embargo where it was like, okay, you're going to come, you're going to go on a tour, everything you see on the tour you're going to get to go public with as of Wednesday, you know, for example. Could have done something like that. Instead, they are muzzled on everything that they saw, even though they were brought along, and I mean I have questions about even signing up as media to see things that you know like did there were there parts that were never going to be allowed to be released probably why are you seeing that stuff why are you agreeing to see that stuff I I get it like conceptually in some ways but if you listened and read all these people trying to weigh in who were down this part of this deep six as they call themselves it's so repetitive because Everything has to adhere essentially to what Jeff wrote. And then there's no, like, they're not even giving opinions. And there are people dancing around on this. One of the people on multiple videos of theirs have pointed out how, you know, I tell you everything if I could, but I agree to the NDA. And it's like, well, you agree to the NDA. That was on you. Yeah. So, you know, I think some of them feel like they might have jeopardized their standing with the pinball community as people who are honest because they're so quick to sign away their ability to be honest. And I know you have a lot of thoughts on that. But I will say, let me settle their fears on that. They have.
    84:07
    Because the fact that they signed this with Deep Root Pinball, and the fact that it's obvious that the restrictions are so tight,
    84:19
    they can't be trusted on Deep Root Pinball, ever. We don't know what the AAS says, and because of that, we can't trust them. If they can't come out and speak the truth, we can't trust them. And here's the thing. And, yes, I'm stealing this as a segue into my rant. And I will tell you right now to the listeners, if my rant sounds a lot more organized than my normal conversation, it's because this rant started its life as my first ever post to Pennside.
    84:54
    And it kept growing and getting deeper. And it got to the point where I was just like, I'd rather talk about this on the podcast than post this out there. So that's why this seems a lot more organized than my normal off-of-the-cuff, run-of-the-mill discussions.
    85:13
    But for these deep six, these members of the pinball media, you and me, Dennis, we're members of the pinball media. And the truth of the matter is the pinball media, we're social influencers. That's exactly what we are.
    85:30
    But the only thing that matters that we have, that we share with you, are our words. What we say to you, our listeners, our viewers when we're streaming, our readers when we're posting online, are the only things that matter. You are our customers, and we have a duty to be honest and truthful with you. if I give you my opinion, that is a truthful opinion because it's what I actually feel. Does that mean that it's right or that you should feel the same way? No. But that's my opinion and that is why I'm giving it out.
    86:11
    Just because I have this platform of the podcast and people who listen to us and people who like to listen to us, hopefully, some people I'm sure hate listen, I have a responsibility in my mind to be truthful with my thoughts and opinions.
    86:32
    If we allow an outside source to influence us, to lock down what we can say by an NDA, or by purchasing a review or by purchasing or providing us with machines or video games or some other form of support.
    86:56
    We need to let you know about that because that way you know that there could be bias. That's why when Dennis and I talk about the Roanoke Pinball Museum, we mentioned that they gave me my gray pen. when we talk about a video game that we've gotten for free, we mention that the game was given to us because that way you know that there's a possibility of bias in our reporting.
    87:25
    Not only is that the ethical thing to do for you, our listeners, our customers, our fans, it's actually required by the Federal Trade Commission. they require the disclosure of stuff like that and over the years the Federal Trade Commission has been updating their rules for stuff like that to match up with modern technology and they've put out a helpful guide called Disclosures 101 for Social Media Influencers we will include a link in the links for it but I think it's an important read for everybody whether they actually consider themselves a social influencer or not.
    88:11
    I will hit some of the highlights on this. Here's some of the... You need to disclose when you have any financial, employment, personal, or family relationships with a brand. Financial relationships are not limited to money. You have to disclose if you get anything of value for mentioning a product. If we've received something for free or a discounted product price, we need to tell you about that. We need to disclose that relationship.
    88:44
    If, for example, my sister owns Hypervolt pinball distributors, and we talk about them on the show, I have to let you know that that is my sister's company.
    88:54
    If Bob Jenkins Pinball gives us their newest pinball machine to review, we have to tell you that Bob Jenkins gave us that pinball machine so we could review it that way you know if there's bias if the Imperial Fist Pinball Network provides funding to us to upgrade our setups and help pay for our podcasting and streaming related bills we need to let you know about that because that way you know that anything we say about Imperial Fist Pinball Network will be from a position of having received support from them. If we don't tell you that, and you're supposed to be trusting us to tell you our honest opinions, and you find out about it, would you ever trust us again? Could you ever trust us again? I know I couldn't, because that would mean we were being paid. We literally had become advertising for you without letting you know that you were watching an advertisement. the requirements also require that you be sure that the people see and understand the disclosures you can't just put the disclosure on a fact or on an about page or hidden in a corner somewhere on your website it has to be mentioned in the story where you are talking about it has to be clearly labeled if you're streaming you are required to mention it throughout the stream multiple times for people who do not watch the entirety of the stream. If you have it on a video platform, if you're putting out a video, you need to put it on the stream and mention it in the video. I mean, it has to be well- They have a full list of what is and is not allowed for the labeling of it so people would know what it is. If we put out a link to a video game and it goes through an affiliate link so that if they buy the game from that link, we make money. We have to tell you that that link is there, and that it is an affiliate link, and that we are making money off of any purchases they make through that link that is required by law.
    91:05
    It doesn't matter if you have four followers or 40 million followers. You all deserve the same amount of respect, and we have to let you know that there could be bias, or that we have been actually purchased, and what we are telling you is what we're paid to tell you. We are legally and morally required to let you know that. We know that the deep six are under NDA. They've made it quite clear.
    91:38
    And we don't know the complete restrictions of the NDA, but honestly, from what I've seen coming out of it, these restrictions are so tight that they can't say what they honestly think. They can't say what they honestly believe. So, no. I'm not going to trust any of them when they talk about Deep Root Pinball.
    92:01
    Because how do I know they don't have to run every single thing they put out about Deep Root through Deep Root before it goes out?
    92:11
    How can you possibly trust somebody when they've accepted that role, they've accepted that in and when they've taken, you can't there's just no good way to do it, and I think this is a problem that we see, not just in this situation we see this a lot in pinball because pinball is such a niche hobby that everybody wants to get in on the know, and they want to have, oh, yeah, I've got the secrets, and oh, I'm good friends with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, well, I'm not going to say, I don't really like this game, but it's not terrible, but I just don't really like it. So I'm just going to, but I'm not going to be saying what I really think about it because I'm really good friends with blah, blah, blah.
    93:04
    That kind of thing all falls under these issues because you're not being honest with your listeners.
    93:13
    I know people don't like everything I say because I disagree with them. How many times have I heard about my dislike of Pirates of the Caribbean from JTP?
    93:27
    I think I've lost count. Yeah, it's insane. Here's the truth of the matter. While the video snippet Dennis has on the Facebook page is short and to the point, I have played a fairly large amount of Pirates at this point. I still don't like the game. I don't find it that much fun, and that's okay. It's okay that I don't find the game fun, and you love it. There's no reason we all have to like the same things.
    93:58
    But if I did not like the game, but because of support from JJP, I told you it was the greatest game in the world, even if you agreed that it was the greatest game in the world that wouldn't be correct it wouldn't be ethical because I wouldn't be telling you the truth and I think this is where the actual largest problem coming out of this whole deep root non-reveal debacle is that this has been painted in glaring light and it's something that us as pinball influencers as a total are going to have to come to grips with going forward. Is this an acceptable way for us to work? Is this an acceptable way for us to treat you, our fans, our listeners, our customers?
    94:58
    I don't think so. I think you need to know the truth. and there's a reason why and I know it's come up in podcasts in the past and it's come up with conversations with people in the past that one of my first questions whenever we get asked anything is do I have to sign an NDA? Because I won't. Period.
    95:23
    I don't get to see the special things nobody tells me special secrets but I don't care because ethically it means that I don't have to lie to you. And I don't have to hold back my true thoughts on something to you. And to me, that is more important than being in the know. And that is more important than having some special event. And you're what matters. Our listeners are what matters. And I think it should be that way to all the streamers and podcasters and reporters and news.
    96:04
    That should be what matters is putting out truth. And this is not truth. This has not been. They're not allowed to speak.
    96:17
    It pissed me off. I'll be honest. You can ask. You're much calmer now than you were. It's been two weeks. and this is like the 900th version of this thing I wrote. And some of the early versions have language that has never been heard on this show before.
    96:35
    And I freely admit, I was livid about all of this. And I'm still not in a good mood about it. I still think it's a massive failure for the pinball community.
    96:56
    But I've had some time, and I've calmed down. Well, it's good that you are calm. Yeah, it's a challenge. As you noted, the size of the hobby. I think the glaring thing that stood out to me for a long time is we don't have a professional pinball media like video games does, which went through its own growing pains and still struggles in some ways because even in the world of video games, you have scenarios where reporters are becoming friends with developers and they don't want to jeopardize. Part of it is just they are truly friends and they don't want to hurt their friend publicly, hurt their feelings. And part of it is maybe even access. But ultimately, and being affiliated with the Pinball Network, we had our Deep Root correspondent, was one of those six, went out there to get information to do their segment.
    97:48
    And I think that part of the thing that ended up cropping up was, kind of going into this, I assumed that there would be some level of embargo that Deep Root would want to coordinate what day the information was released. And I would have been fine. But ultimately, based off of the opening statement in the info dump on Twip, it sounds more like they ended up becoming beta testers. Like it became like a beta event. That actually may be based off of what actually Deep Root said, not what Jeff said. I apologize. But so given that, it's just, it's like,
    98:28
    but I thought you were going, like, are you going as the media or is he going as play testers? You see, those are two different roles. You can go and be a play tester, go and get early access and try stuff. And other companies have done that as well. But at some stage, when a company wants to reveal information to the public, they need to lose some ability to control the narrative at that point. And it's going to be, OK, do you want us to go out there and look at Raza? We have to have the ability to release our thoughts on your Raza presentation. And that's where I thought if they knew that they weren't going to be ready for the public reveal, they should have canceled having these six go out there.
    99:14
    Because what's the point if it can't be public anymore? Now, I understand from like a pinball affection and auto perspective that, hey, isn't it cool to be part of this group of six that gets to know stuff? No one that happens all the time. It really does. And I get that from a, you know, from a consumption perspective. I love knowing stuff from a consumption perspective. But obviously, there's a flip side if I'm at the point where I'm agreeing to NDAs with manufacturers so that I'm in the – just to have the knowledge and then not be able to share it. I guess that makes me the cool kid, but that's not the point. To me, it's not the point. So, yeah, I just – again, I understand from Deeper's perspective, control everything with NDA. it's like the best of all worlds. They have full control over all of this. In fact, at the end of the note from Deep Root Pinball mentioned that the information provided in the TWIP article was to give perspective and context to illicitly leaked confidential information. And the VIPs as they refer to them, as Deep Root referred to the Deep Six, released from the NDA about anything discussed in the article. But did not include things seen on the tour told to be off limits or prices and edition features. why were those things even covered if they couldn't be shared?
    100:37
    I don't know. And that's what I don't understand is they spent weeks hyping up this event. So for them to say, oh, it's a beta test. No, that's them covering.
    100:46
    This thing flopped so hard that they canceled everything. I mean there are things that you share with media and you keep them confidential I give you a real life example of mine So I was speaking with a reporter about coronavirus several weeks ago And at one point, the conversation was shifting to the reporter clearly wanted to know where some outbreak clusters were. And I knew what some of the issues related to those clusters were. But for political reasons, I did not want my name associated with that. So I offered to give them the information to allow them to report on it, but I said I wanted to be on background so that they wouldn't name me. And we had a conversation. I gave him the background details. And then when he wanted it no longer on background, he said, going back on the record, and then he continued with his questions, at which point I'm like, I know. Anything I say, he can completely associate to me. And when they write these articles, I do not get a copy and get to say, yes, yes, yes, no, yes, no, and decide what gets printed. Right.
    102:02
    And that's just the role. So I'm just, yeah, I think on retrospect, and I don't know all the details. I wasn't in discussions with DeepRit about going out and being part of the Deep Six. I do remember when they were planning to do the TPF and they were going to have a VIP room. And they emailed and offered us the ability to be in those in the VIP room would be able to interview the team members. And that was your first thing was I didn't even think about it initially that you were. Do we have to sign an NDA to get in that room? Because I'm not signing an NDA.
    102:33
    So I wrote back and I said, we wouldn't be comfortable having access to the VIP area if it meant we had to agree to an NDA. knowing that that may cost us the ability to have any interviews at all and in that case there was no NDA it was like no it was just we'll put you on the list and it's just a quieter place to record like okay yeah we don't have a problem with that but yeah it gets murky if you're trying to cover stuff and you're giving up your ability to share any of it you're not really media I guess is my point you're not real media not how I define it not like press No. But that's the thing. A lot of that stuff is still required of what is disqualified as an influencer anymore. Right. And that's where I just think that's as broadly, there's a lot of ignorance. You know, it's as simple as finding yourself a podcast hosting site and getting a microphone or grabbing some cameras and making a YouTube account or, you know, getting Microsoft Word and a website to host that to be able to share stuff and be immediately tagged as an influencer. your level of influence isn't relevant as you noted you're just an influencer at that point but a lot of people don't do the background research to know about the disclosure rules that do exist at least for the Americans that are doing this work right now I would be very surprised if the rules were lesser for a lot of other nations than they are in the US yep so I guess to fellow pinball content creators, be careful. The guide is really short that Tony linked. I have not read that one before. It's super short. It's not hard.
    104:16
    But do it. Because it basically amounts to if you can be materially helped in any way, shape, or form by it, tell people about it. That's what it amounts to.
    104:32
    Well, Tony, I think we can finally go to Holy crap, this episode's long. Why don't we go to video games? Yeah, we're moving from pinball into video games at the hour 45 mark. Yeah, this is going to be a big one. So after that, moving into our video game segment, which we had skipped last week, I did not go back and pull a lot of the information from the two weeks prior. I probably should have, but I caught enough new stuff coming into this one that I decided, meh, we're just going to let it be. even though there was some big news back then with the whole bots buying all the PlayStations and the video cards and everything else. Yeah, Roger, Roger.
    105:15
    So, moving in, I've already talked about Star Wars Squadrons, so I don't have to bring that one back up again. So let's talk about Sony.
    105:28
    Go web! Quick, quick, quick. Sony is launching a remastered version of the Spider-Man game. The Marvel Spider-Man, which I played and beaten. It's a very enjoyable game.
    105:43
    But they're doing a remaster for the next-gen console, so for the PS5, they had to change the actor for Peter Parker.
    105:54
    Because what they'd apparently done was they used one actor for the facial motion capture, and they used a totally different actor to overlay that facial motion capture for the actual look, and what it amounts to is they say it looked bad when they moved everything up to the PS5. It didn't look good because their facial features were too far different. So they found a new actor, grabbed his face, mapped it onto the facial motion capture from the original motion capture actor. They say it looks much better. And it's completely coincidental that this guy looks a lot like Tom Hardy.
    106:42
    Not Tom Hardy. Tom Holland. That's just complete coincidence. What a happy coincidence. But the thing is, there's been a pretty large backlash from players at this game.
    106:58
    Why do they hate Tom? I don't think that it's... You know, I don't know. I think he's whiny and he's always fighting with Jake Gyllenhaal.
    107:10
    It could be. It very well could be. I just don't understand. I do. It has to be a money thing. I don't understand why they didn't just take whoever was going to be the face and use them for the facial capture. Yeah, I don't get it. Why are there two separate people for this?
    107:31
    That makes zero sense to me. At all. So, I don't know. It's not something that I'm worked up in arms about. I don't care that much because I didn't play the game and stare at Peter Parker's face all the time. Whatever. It's a weird change and a weird backlash to me.
    108:02
    Hmm. Yeah, it sounds really weird. Yeah. So I'm going to go ahead and segue off of that one Into Cyberpunk 2077 Oh I'm so excited for this Everybody's excited for Cyberpunk 2077 Except for maybe the employees Aww CD Projekt Red has pushed this game back I don't know how many times now I think at least three At least three times they've pushed that game back now and they promised their employees and made it, I mean, they told, like, reporters this, that there would be no crunch leading up to the game's release, and that's part of the reason they pushed the game back so many times.
    108:51
    So when they sent out an email to their employees apologizing, but there's going to be a mandatory crunch where the employees are required to work six days a week for the next six weeks until the game releases, Oh, that seems kind of like an issue Seeing as you were all like, oh, we're not going to do this crunch We know how terrible the crunch is You're being real generous with saying it's an issue Holy cow I mean, it's I guess they must be really feeling the Like, maybe CD Projekt Red doesn't have the rock star ability To delay as long as they want And the fans will always forgive them I'm wondering if they're finally feeling the heat I think that they're afraid if they don't get it out by holiday, their sales are going to be way low. This game's so hyped, though. I don't understand how they could think that. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I don't get it. But the studio lead, Adam Badowski, sent an employee out to emails, and it says, and I quote, I take it upon myself to receive the full backlash for the decision. I know this is in direct opposition to what we've said about Crunch. It's also in direct opposition to what I personally grew to believe a while back, that crunch should never be the answer. But we've expended all other possible means of navigating the situation.
    110:11
    When the news story broke, this was followed up by a tweet. And the tweet reads, These last six weeks are our final sprint on a project we've all spent much of our lives on. something we care for deeply. The majority of the team understands that push, especially in light of the fact that we just sent the game to cert and every day brings us visibly closer to shipping a game we want to be proud of. This is one of the hardest decisions I've had to make, but everyone is well compensated for every extra hour they put in. And like in recent years, 10% of the annual profit our company generates in 2020 will be split directly amongst the team. I wonder what well compensated means do the employees think they're well compensated because I've found throughout my life that what management thinks is well compensated and what employees think is well compensated are very different things yeah the last line is the one that stuck with me it's like oh what is this a reminder hey 10% of the annual profit is going to be split amongst the team. Yeah, but you do that every year, so that's not special. That's nothing special. That's like someone telling me, hey, Dennis, you're going to get paid at the end of this month. Really? Wow. The same amount as usual? Wow. That's amazing.
    111:40
    What a bunch of crap. Holy cow. I mean, we have seen time and time again, and there has been major discussions over the last year, years about just how bad the crunch is. Oh, it's like the most, it's the most hated aspect of it. I know plenty of people who are programmers, crunch is why they won't go into video games. Yeah. And, I mean, I've had enough jobs where I worked insane hours before, and still the thought of what the hours some of these people put into their crunches are crazy. I mean, we're talking about 12 to 16-hour days, seven days a week for months on end? Yeah, and to me – People sleeping at work because they don't have time to go home? I don't get it. To me, crunch is a testament to terrible planning. Yeah. Because if you don't – it's like, is there no project management? I know COVID has really shaken things up. But again, as you've noted, Cyberpunk has been delayed repeatedly. So they've been adjusting for the... I just... I mean, it just looks like they don't know. I mean, this game was originally, what, a February release? Yeah, I think so. Are they just that pushed up to make it a 2020 release? Here's the thing, and I'm going to blatantly steal this line that I saw on Twitter. They're not curing cancer.
    113:08
    They're making a video game. Why does it matter if it's late? I mean, as you noted, the only thing off the top of my head that makes sense to me is that they're concerned about missing the holiday sales window. But, again, this is CD Projekt Red. They have often been, by various influencers and video game media, referred to as basically second only to Rockstar in terms of fan support. They are release date proof. They could release this thing on February 2nd and it will sell. Yeah. There are so many people that are... Other companies move their release dates to avoid them. That's how powerful they are. Right. There is no reason for this crunch. No. I agree. If they have to do this, then they should have pushed again. Yes. I mean, yes. I agree with what you said. They're not quite Rockstar level. Rockstar can push a game for a decade, and then just have just that game for a decade, and nobody cares.
    114:12
    Yeah, but I think maybe the difference is Rockstar doesn't change their date publicly three times. So they just wait. It's ready when it's ready. And then they, you know, like Valve time. Valve doesn't go around saying, yeah, you're going to get Half-Life 3 in 2019 and then miss the date. They just don't tell you. Right. And I think that might be the thing where they shot themselves by giving a release date. Because as many jokes are made about it, the truth of the matter is it'll be done when it's done. is fine. Yeah.
    114:46
    What a mess, Jesus. I might punish CD Projekt Red and not buy this game until it's on sale. Maybe. Punishments only go so far.
    114:56
    Maybe. We'll see. See, for me, CD Projekt Red isn't that mystical. I don't have the experience that a lot of people do with them. Yeah, I mean, I think their games have gotten better over time. Witcher 3 is a lot of fun, but outside of that, they don't... It's not. It isn't Rockstar. Yeah. It's not... It's not Skyrim. I'm not playing it on Pregnancy Test. You know what? I think Microsoft should just buy them. Oh, that would be... You know what? That's one thing that I didn't include in this list that I know we've not talked about. Oh, yeah.
    115:37
    Well, I guess we can touch on it. So, yeah, Microsoft buying ZeniMax. Right. You know what? Because, yeah, they should buy ZeniProject. You think that's big enough to mention? Yeah, that's big enough to mention. So, ZeniMax includes id Software, Bethesda.
    115:55
    Yeah. I mean, it's everybody. Here's the core of the video games that I really enjoy spending a ton of time in and playing. I'm talking about Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Doom.
    116:13
    All of that is a Microsoft product now. And it was a $7.5 billion purchase. Yeah, I think about $7.5, yeah. But here's the thing.
    116:30
    In the console wars for the last generation, Sony won. I mean, there's no doubt. Sony won. They had the better games. They had the better studios. And Microsoft has been, as we've spoken about at length, shoring up their position by buying more studios to put out more... Yeah. They're trying to achieve parity on the exclusives.
    116:56
    That's what it looks like. Even if they just do timed exclusives with Elder Scrolls 6, with whatever the next Fallout is, with whatever the next Doom is. I know Bethesda has several games that are... They've got several games that are too soon to release for them to start throwing on even timed exclusives. But if they start hitting timed exclusives on some of these big Bethesda games,
    117:25
    I mean, that's a solid kidney shot to Sony. That is a huge kidney shot. Do you think that they're going to only be timed exclusives?
    117:34
    I don't know that Xbox will actually put in even an exclusive block. Well, I mean, as owners, they could always change their mind later. But my thinking is that while they have made some statements in the past about not being the biggest fans of exclusivity, they've also had the biggest struggle with doing it. And I don't think you spend $7.5 billion to allow people to play Elder Scrolls on Sony. Now they won't be console exclusive These are going to be on PC That's all part of Microsoft's strategy But I Other than sustaining things that are already out On the other systems Especially when you're thinking If I'm them and you're thinking Well we have a $300 Microsoft Series S Coming out That's next gen and it's affordable You know what people can buy Something from us and play the game Or play it on their PC we don't need to they'd make more money if it's broad based but if the goal is to move hardware or get people onto Microsoft platforms then they need to deal with the exclusivity or else it doesn't really drive that it would be like an investment oh let's get into more software development let's buy ZeniMax because we think in five years we're going to make our investment back but I don't think that's the strategy I think the strategy is to make Xbox sell more consoles and if they start making some of these games exclusive, I mean if Elder Scrolls 6 is exclusive to the Xbox platform I can tell you there are going to be huge numbers of people that are buying Xboxes or are going to be playing it on computer Sure, it's the same thing as when Sony announced that they were getting exclusively the next Final Fantasy People are going to buy that console That's why I bought the PS1 is I want to play Final Fantasy 7. That's why I bought it. Yeah.
    119:32
    The reason I bought a PS4 was because everything I wanted to play on Xbox I could play on the computer. Yep. And since that part's going to... I think, you know, this will probably upset some people that were planning to only buy PS5, obviously. Right. And don't game on PC. So I think they're going to be really... Because, I mean, quite frankly, of any studio, Zenimax is the one I care... I mean, Zenimax is the one I cared about the most. Right. I like Doom. I like Wolfenstein. Fallout, Elder Scrolls, they're all really, really good.
    120:08
    You know, I was seeing more stuff come from id. It's a really good assortment that they got with Zenimax. There were all these rumors that they might buy Bungie and make Bungie first party. This is so much bigger than Bungie. This is way bigger than Bungie. and Bungie kind of pulled away. I mean, Bungie, why would Bungie go back into that? I didn't get it because they just got their independence from Activision. Right. Why would they go back into something like that now? Right. Unless they're struggling. Right. Now, if Xbox would buy Activision Blizzard, or at least... I just want them to buy the Blizzard restrictions, Activision. And say, here, go back to just being Blizzard. That would be awesome. One interesting thing about this purchase that jumped out to me almost immediately because I'm that kind of geeky guy is with Xbox owning Bethesda now and Xbox owning Obsidian Games. I see where you're going. We could get a sequel to Fallout New Vegas. Yeah. Or a new Fallout game that has the depth and story of New Vegas. Because of all the modern Fallout games, I consider New Vegas the best. And I think it's because of what Obsidian did with it. I think that's the best story. I would say that. If I could have the story and the individual character control that I have with New Vegas, with the actual combat system and play of 4, I would be happy. Maybe you'll get it. I did also read an interview with John Carmack, who people might know from id Software Days. He's been mostly working VR lately. But he mentioned now that Microsoft owns ZeniMax, he may go back and work on some, I guess, some of the older titles that he used to be associated with. Apparently, he had a big falling out with litigation with him and ZeniMax. And so he was not viewed very favorably within the ZeniMax corporate structure. But a lot of that may now be under the bridge because they're not there anymore. It'll be Microsoft, and they don't have the baggage about the lawsuit with him. So that would be nice. I mean, Carmack is a genius. So yeah, it would be interesting. I would really like to see him doing more than dink around in VR. that would be interesting you know also not in our notes I came real close to buying a VR set the other day and I'm still considering it I've actually been looking at where my stuff is set up here and with my new computer that can handle it easy and with the way everything is set up here I actually have some beams that run above me that would allow me to run the wires in a way that I wouldn't have to risk tripping on wires. So I've begun actually researching VR as a possibility.
    123:24
    But it's still expensive and we'll see. Probably wouldn't be till next spring but I'm looking at it.
    123:35
    So it's just so I can play Beat Saber, man. Why else would I need it? It's just for Beat Saber. It's totally not because there's all sorts of games out there that let me do VR cockpit combat stuff. Like, oh, I don't know, Star Wars Squadrons and the EVE Valkyrie and anything else that lets me get my space combat fix.
    124:07
    Yeah, those don't count. Those don't count. It's totally for Beat Saber. Just see my chunky-sniff bouncing around doing Beat Saber stuff. Oh, man, that'd be almost as bad as DDR.
    124:24
    For our last topic here in video games, I want to hit on something that we haven't talked about in a while. Not since March, maybe May That we've gotten in real depth Not since COVID tore it up And that's the Overwatch League They're just about, next weekend is Grand Finals Right, next weekend is Grand Finals So they're just about done And the teams that did not make it to Grand Finals Are doing massive, massive clean sweeps Dropping players and coaches My personal team of choice, London Spitfire, who finished in like 17th this year and last in the Pacific League, as I recall. Yeah, they had a rough season. Yeah, they have already dumped their entire coaching staff.
    125:14
    And considering they dumped all of their good players coming into this year, it's not a surprise they had a bad year. But in addition to all that Pete I'm going to slaughter his last name Vlastikala Stikala, however you say it He's the president and CEO Of Activision Blizzard And he's also been the commissioner of the Overwatch League For this season But he's stepping down as the commissioner Following the end of the Grand Finals This season And like we were saying, this season has been really, really, really rough on the Overwatch League as a whole.
    125:59
    Between this being the season that they were starting to do all of their live in-person games in their home city games, instead of just being in LA, and then COVID happened. So Overwatch League was forced to convert themselves from a home game in an arena, huge crowds, to an actual online playing from your team house area league just overnight. to handle COVID and still be able to actually play this year. And I know that was a huge strike for most of the teams financially, teams that some of which are already not doing great financially. And the question is, is how well do we really think this shift has happened and how badly hurt has Overwatch been by this? Because I know their viewer numbers are way down. Yeah, I mean, there are a mix of factors in play. A part of it is that while I think it has gotten a lot better the last three months or so,
    127:23
    the game has been stagnant because it seems like they're putting all their resources into Overwatch 2. So we were not seeing meta shifts very quickly. they kind of masked that by doing hero pools, which I think for Overwatch League was a good move, but they were super inconsistent. Like, it took them a while to find their footing on the hero pools, so it was changing weekly, and no one was learning anything, and it was like, we're watching pros, but the pros don't even have enough time to set a meta, and then they slowed it up, and they were just, there were all these weird, you know, in an attempt to keep it lively. I think it has been more lively in terms of seeing different characters doing different things at different points in the year than in the prior two seasons of Overwatch. So I had enjoyed it from that perspective, but they ended up fragmenting the Atlantic and Pacific style. But you had weird things, so like New York is over in the Pacific Division. London's in the Pacific Division. Yeah, and good luck trying to watch those games because they're all, like, New York was usually given the last time spot to appeal to the American audience. And that still usually meant, on paper, a 5 a.m. Central start time, 4 a.m. Eastern.
    128:41
    And sometimes it was done before then because Shanghai Dragons are so good, the first game ends quick.
    128:47
    It's amazing saying Shanghai Dragons are so good. I mean, I think a lot of the team owners are probably really frustrated because they were supposed to have a lot of ticket sales and merch that was going to be revolving around those homestands. And they were really well attended, the few we had before COVID shut things down. Right. So there's that, coupled with Valorant, poached some of the, and that slowed up some, but some of the most popular names like Sinatra and Baby Bay and Corey, they went to Valorant. Or they think they're going to Valorant. So they left Overwatch League.
    129:25
    I think getting cooped up also, you know, people get burned out. A lot of these players are kids. I mean, they're over 18, but they're kids. It's the first time they haven't lived at home. And then you're told that you can't do anything and you're kept under. I mean, it's just, here's my biggest gripe, besides the time thing. Because it was hard to watch. My team was New York and it was hard to watch them. Yeah.
    129:48
    Holy crap. This season was way too long. Way too long. That I don't have grand finals done yet pisses me off. I'm just like, this has been, the whole big thing was how they were going to go down from burning out the players by having them play 40 games in a season to cutting it like in half. But it feels like the season's been even longer.
    130:13
    And I've been trying to watch. I still watch fairly regularly. I think the numbers dropped because the times are different. You know, it wasn't all built around L.A. Some of them couldn't follow their teams anymore because they're now off in, you know, Pacific time. We're, you know, weird, weird time zones that aren't built around the American audience. And then the drops because of the move to YouTube. That was a mess. Oh, yeah, that was terrible. You had to find out in any way. You had to find out they moved to YouTube. So good luck if you're still following them on just Twitch. and then there were no drops or incentives until like July so there was no like gameplay reason to get cosmetic skins to you know they had Lulu's they had incentives for people to want to watch Overwatch League and they didn't have those this year and yeah you lose the whole stage I mean part of the fun with Overwatch League was in the down time when the desk was talking seeing people hold up the signs and it was goofy there was a gamer-ness to it That is just now it's just watching like streamers and there's tech issues all over the place. The tech issues have been one of the things that have hurt it a lot for me. It's good. Yeah. I mean, there have been some major tech. And it got better as, you know, they learned as they went along. But I mean, even I was watching the the All-Stars stuff yesterday. They did All-Stars. and there's still issues where people like forget to unmute their mics or they're, they're talking through discord, but we don't hear them through discord. So they're like unmuted in one and like unmuted in discord, but muted on YouTube. It's weird. It's, and then they don't realize it and it gets, it's just goofy. It's goofy. So I mean, I blame COVID for almost all of this. I don't think, I think the commissioner did what he could given the hand he was dealt. Right. And I think, it was a bad hand overall. Yeah, I know. It's not been boring like Goats was boring. So I've actually enjoyed the gameplay this season far more than season two, but it's just been difficult. It's just constant chipping away. You have games that were to catch up. They were running games on Friday. The grand finals, that starts at 3 a.m. on Thursday. Yeah I'm not watching that No So I mean it's just a mix of stuff So yeah I think it will be better next year even if we're still dealing with COVID if for no other reason Then they are more used to it and they will have a better Plan Well hopefully they've finished getting all the Bugs figured out With their Switching because I know early in the season They had the problems where they would occasionally just cut away from what was going on to nothing for a while. Yeah, the video stuff got better. The sound has been more of an issue. And YouTube initially was a mess. Yeah, because I know when I was watching, yeah, when I watched the other day, I was still having audio desync issues the other day.
    133:27
    So yeah, it's been unfortunate. Yeah, it was rough. It was definitely a rough one for them. because I normally watch between 4 and 5 in the morning because I wake up between 4 and 5 in the morning. So I watch that stuff. And then the afternoon stuff, I only watch certain ones on occasion.
    133:50
    It's changed how it is. We'll see going forward how next year works out. It's curious to see how all of the esports are going to make changes, just like regular sports made changes due to all this.
    134:10
    Well, I think we got through everything. I think so. I think we definitely hit enough. This is definitely going to be a longer episode even with all the cuts.
    134:21
    Well, if people want to reach out to us about anything we covered in the episode, they can email eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. We're available on Instagram, Twitter and Twitch as Eclectic underscore Gamers. And we'll be back in a couple weeks to be the last people to cover JJP's review. Yes, we will. Until then, I'm Dennis. And I'm Tony. Goodbye. Bye.