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Episode 61 – Bags of news + Pinstadium

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·2h 2m·held·Sep 24, 2018
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

JJP teases Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Limited Edition variant; PinStadium founder Scott discusses lighting innovation and Orion's Belt reveal.

Summary

Head2Head Pinball discusses major news including a new Jersey Jack Pinball of Oz variant (Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Limited Edition), production numbers for JJP games, and an extensive interview with Scott from PinStadium about his lighting system development and the newly announced Orion's Belt product. The hosts also touch on code updates, operator-collector market dynamics, and secondary market pricing trends.

Key Claims

  • Wizard of Oz has sold 4,000 units, Hobbit around 2,000, and Dialed In!! 1,600

    high confidence · Ryan and Martin citing production numbers revealed by Jack (JJP founder) at a seminar

  • Ruby Red Wizard of Oz edition has sold out

    high confidence · Martin and Ryan cite Wayne Gillard's mention of the sellout a couple weeks prior

  • A new Wizard of Oz variant called Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Limited Edition is coming

    high confidence · Martin and Ryan state this as discovered fact after digging; details unknown

  • The market is saturated with pinball manufacturers, creating competition for limited buyer base

    high confidence · Ryan's analysis of market conditions relative to manufacturer expansion

  • Scott from PinStadium started collecting in 2000 and built up to 37 Bally/Williams machines

    high confidence · Scott's direct testimony in interview segment

  • PinStadium was never intended to be sold commercially; it evolved from Scott's personal collection lighting project

    high confidence · Scott explicitly states in interview: 'It was never, ever an intention for me to sell the PinStadiums'

  • PinStadium launched with 100 pre-orders at the Ohio Pinball Show, all sold out within weeks

    high confidence · Scott's account of launch at Ohio show with Trent Augustine's introduction

  • The Monkey Mod (for Wizard of Oz) by Steve is functional and ready for group order distribution in Australia

    medium confidence · Martin's personal experience with early installation; group order of 10 units mentioned

Notable Quotes

  • “Wizard of Oz, it's, I mean, I don't know why. Maybe it's because of time, the fact that they've had it for so long that they've been able to just churn more and more out. But, you know, 4,000 units is pretty good.”

    Ryan C @ early discussion — Contextualizes JJP's production success and market dominance of Wizard of Oz

  • “Absolutely fuck all. Like, really, fuck all.”

    Ryan C @ Yellow Brick Road discussion — Emphasizes the mystery and lack of details about the new WoZ variant

  • “It's effectively their fifth vault edition, but it's kind of the same principle where you take something out, put it back on the line because you can.”

    Martin @ production strategy analysis — Frames Yellow Brick Road as a business-driven rerun similar to Stern's vault edition model

  • “If I was a pinball and I was on the play field and I looked up, Where would be the absolute, absolute best spot for all the lights? And, you know, I think about as high as possible.”

    Pin Stadium Lights @ PinStadium origin story — Reveals the core design philosophy behind PinStadium lighting concept

  • “I stayed up late and I think about things and I'm like, something's not right. It doesn't get off my mind”

    Pin Stadium Lights @ personality discussion — Characterizes Scott's obsessive approach to product development

  • “It was just Scott trying to light up his pinball machines... I didn't even know any collectors back then.”

    Pin Stadium Lights @ PinStadium origin — Emphasizes the grassroots, non-commercial origin of the PinStadium concept

  • “You got something here... these games, they're really well lit. What are you doing?”

    Trent Augustine (paraphrased by Scott) @ PinStadium discovery — Documents the moment Trent recognized PinStadium's commercial potential

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyThe Wizard of OzgameWizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road Limited EditionproductDialed In!gameThe HobbitgamePirates of the CaribbeangameMartinpersonRyan Cperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pinball is reviving Wizard of Oz with a new Yellow Brick Road Edition variant following Ruby Red sellout. This follows a vault-edition model similar to Stern's strategy—leveraging existing production capacity and inventory to create artificial scarcity and FOMO.

    high · Martin states: 'It's effectively their fifth vault edition... where you take something out, put it back on the line because you can.' Production numbers show WoZ at 4,000 units with Ruby Red sold out, triggering new variant announcement.

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball market saturation is accelerating due to influx of new manufacturers competing for finite buyer base. Production volumes are being distributed across more manufacturers, reducing per-company volume.

    high · Ryan: 'The market is pretty saturated... with so many options and the market not expanding as fast as the amount of Pinball manufacturers entering the market, everyone's just kind of sharing the load more than normal.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack's Dialed In has underperformed relative to Wizard of Oz and The Hobbit, selling only 1,600 units compared to WoZ's 4,000. This may have triggered the decision to rerun WoZ production to keep assembly lines active.

    high · Production numbers: Dialed In 1,600 units vs. WoZ 4,000 units. Martin speculates: 'if Dialed In really hasn't sold the units that it needs to... Might as well top it up with some extra Wizard of Oz units.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Aftermarket modification ecosystem is thriving. The Monkey Mod for Wizard of Oz represents the community's desire to enhance existing popular games post-purchase, creating secondary revenue streams for modders.

    high · Steve's Monkey Mod is in final stages; Martin has early access and organized a group order of 10 units for Australian customers. Installation takes under 10 minutes once optimized.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.367

0:00
Music Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 61 and my name's Martin and with me... It's Ryan C. How are you Ryan? I'm amazing, Marty. Yourself? I'm good. It feels like I haven't seen you for a while.
0:44
Yeah, you didn't come to my comp so that's, yeah, about a week and a half, two weeks. What's your comp called?
0:51
Pinball Paradise. Nice strike. Somebody did say that I had a bit of a hissy fit. Well, you just left completely as soon as you left. Which is, I do that too. I just, you just had your equipment. So it's kind of like you have to pack your bags to leave. I know. I was like, I did say goodbye. Anyway. So we've got some news this week, Ryan. So much news to cover. What's the first thing we're going to talk about?
1:25
A new J.J.P. Pinball machine, Lani. And not the one you've been thinking of. Well, it kind of is the one I've been thinking of because I don't know which one it is. So, a couple of weeks ago we were talking to Wayne Gillard and he mentioned that the Ruby Red Wizard of Oz edition had been sold out. Yes. And I was unaware of this, you were unaware of this, I don't think anyone knew it was sold out. So, we kind of did some digging because if it is a popular title, I think they still have the license so there must be another one, another version coming, right? Well, there is apparently a new Wizard of Oz coming out, the Yellow Brick Road Edition. What do we know about the Yellow Brick Road Edition? Absolutely fuck all. Like, really, fuck all. Do you think it would just be the same Red River Red Edition just with the words Yellow Brick Road Edition on it? It could be. Or it could have a yellow trim. It could have, like, a, you know, that sparkly playfield that people are doing these days. Yes, I've heard that rumor as well. I've heard that randomly, but that's what I've heard. Well, you know, one thing we didn't really talk about was that at a seminar that Jack went to, he did reveal the production numbers and I guess it was a bit of a surprise and not a surprise. Well, about dialed in, so not selling as well. I think people have sort of said that. But, you know, Wizard of Oz sold 4,000 units. Hobbit, 2,000, I think. Yeah, I think it was around that, yeah. Yeah. And Daldin has sold 1,600. So Wizard of Oz, it's, I mean, I don't know why. Maybe it's because of time, the fact that they've had it for so long that they've been able to just churn more and more out. But, you know, 4,000 units is pretty good. Yeah. I think right now the market is pretty saturated. And I guess with so many options and the market not expanding as fast as the amount of Pinball manufacturers entering the market, everyone's just kind of sharing the load more than normal. So, I mean, actually you can see it with Spooky, with Rob Zombie selling out immediately because, well, one, because of the whole flipping factor and two, the scarcity. But then it hasn't happened yet with Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle because, yeah, 500 at the moment for a boutique manufacturer is a lot. Yeah, exactly. And look, when I did the facture of Jersi Jack, I saw that they've got the main production and then they've got the small production. So they have the ability to have a full run of Pirates of the Caribbean going out whilst doing these runs. And the parallel I guess I'll give, not that they would want me to say this, but this is effectively a vault edition.
Scott
person
Pin Stadium Lightsproduct
Orion's Beltproduct
Trent Augustineperson
Wayne Gillardperson
Steveperson
Monkey Modproduct
Deadpoolgame
Spooky Pinballcompany
Rob Zombiegame
Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castlegame
Stern Pinballcompany
Pinball Paradiseevent
Ohio Pinball Showevent
Chicago Pinball Expoevent
  • ?

    product_launch: PinStadium's Orion's Belt is a new complementary product launched this week, though its exact function remains unclear to the broader community. Appears to be a flasher system add-on.

    medium · Martin: 'Scott from Pinn Stadium... announced Orion's belt during the week.' Martin watched reveal video but states: 'I get that it's a flasher system, but like a lot of people, I wanted to see it exactly where it was.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Scott's PinStadium lighting system represents a paradigm shift in pinball cabinet illumination, moving from incandescent/LED inserts to elevated stadium-style ambient lighting mounted magnetically on the backbox. This addresses longstanding playfield lighting balance issues.

    high · Scott's detailed account of the progression from incandescent to LED inserts creating hot spots, then to overhead spotlight kits, finally culminating in the PinStadium elevated magnetic mount concept inspired by stadium lighting design.

  • ?

    community_signal: PinStadium evolved from personal obsession project to commercial success through organic community recommendation and word-of-mouth, not traditional marketing. Trent Augustine's endorsement was pivotal in launch.

    high · Scott: 'It was never, ever an intention for me to sell the PinStadiums.' Launch occurred when Trent Augustine invited him to Ohio Pinball Show with statement: 'You got something here... You need to go to the Ohio Pinball show.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball operates dual production lines: one for main-line games (Pirates of the Caribbean) and one for specialty/limited runs (Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz), allowing concurrent production flexibility.

    medium · Martin: 'I saw that they've got the main production and then they've got the small production. So they have the ability to have a full run of Pirates of the Caribbean going out whilst doing these runs.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Iron Maiden on Australian secondary market being listed at AUD $19,000, with expectations it won't sell. Ryan jokingly states he'd sell his Iron Maiden for $18,000. Indicates speculative pricing on rare boutique titles without sustained FOMO.

    medium · Martin: 'If there's an Ion Maiden on eBay in Australia for $19,000, I don't think it's going to sell for that much money.' Ryan counters joking he'd sell for $18,000, indicating awareness of secondary market fantasy pricing.

  • ?

    code_update: Deadpool received a code update with bug fixes and polish. Additional update pending that may address menu system overhaul to match PIN 2000 standard (though hosts express skepticism this will happen).

    medium · Ryan: 'Some more codes come out. A bit of bug fixes... I've heard through the grapevine that they're going to change the menu system to the equivalent to the PIN 2000 menu system.' Martin expresses skepticism: 'It's never going to happen.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Trent Augustine (ranked ~top 10 IFPA/Tilt Amusements) played pivotal role in PinStadium's discovery and public launch, demonstrating how competitive players serve as informal product evangelists in tight-knit community.

    high · Scott attributes PinStadium's launch success to Trent Augustine's insistence at Ohio Pinball Show: 'You got something here... You need to go to the Ohio Pinball show.'

    • 4:14
    Just like there was KISS vault edition, right? It's effectively their fifth vault edition, but it's kind of the same principle where you take something out, put it back on the line because you can. You've got all the parts there, maybe do a little bit of an enhancement and out it goes. But it's the same principle that I mentioned a few weeks ago when I caught the Ked Elwin seminar at Pinburg where people were talking about vault editions Because obviously everybody's keen to get their favourite machinery done. And he sort of said it and we kind of knew it. The Vault edition sits there as an ability to keep production running when maybe there is a title that hasn't sold as well. So that kind of in a way would make sense if Dialed In really hasn't sold the units that it needs to. Pirates of the Caribbean is now on the assembly line. Might as well top it up with some extra Wizard of Oz units. From a business perspective, I think Jax talked about it before where he wants that kind of instant collection thing. He wants to be able to make all the games in his arsenal. In his what? In his arsenal. Oh my gosh.
    5:30
    Did it come out wrong? That's all, yeah. Okay, so he wants to make all the games in his collection. Yeah, if someone wants an instant collection, then here, here's four, five JV games. And Stern has the ability to do that. That's because, one, they produce so many games a year, and two, they've been around for 30 years, I guess, making games. So I guess they're trying to play catch-up, but I'm not sure it does any favours for them marketing-wise. I think people are realising with Pirates of the Caribbean maybe that there is no... I mean, you really have to want it if you're going to buy it brand new for the ticket price, right? Versus waiting to get it secondhand. There's no fear of missing out like there is with certain other Stern titles. Like if there's an Ion Maiden on eBay in Australia for $19,000, I don't think it's going to sell for that much money.
    6:25
    You had to call out my name like you think I'm going to sell mine. You would sell it for $19,000. I would sell it for $19,000, easy. Okay, if you want Mare's Mane for $19,000. Yep. $18,000 and it's done. $17,000? No, no, no, $18,000 and it's gone. Okay. Done. Honestly, why wouldn't you? That is actually ridiculous money.
    6:53
    Yeah. So, yeah, just to finish up on JJP, our good friend Steve who made the Red Smoke Witch Mods. Yes. He's posted a video today of the Monkey Mod and, yeah, it looks pretty damn good. He's still teasing everyone. He still hasn't finalized it and doesn't have it available to public.
    7:19
    But, Marty. By what, Ryan? By what? Do you know someone that's got one? And part two of my question is, do you know somebody who should have one by now?
    7:32
    You've been busy, Marty. Yep. It's been installed in my Pimball machine for the last two weeks and I can tell you it is 100% amazing.
    7:42
    I wasn't allowed to kind of show any photos or anything. I don't even know if we're meant to be talking about it but it's good. It's freaking awesome. I mean I'm not shilling anything because I ordered 10 of them for everyone in Australia. Like I did a group order because I wanted to be part of that and that'll still happen when that's ready to go. And how was it installed? How was it to install it? Yeah. Because that area at the back is a bit fiddly, isn't it?
    8:10
    I mean, he gave me his instructions and that's why he gave it to me to kind of like, you know when you're so deep inside a product like Scott from Pinn Stadium, which we'll talk about in a second, that like, he's so, his day revolves around making Pinn Stadium lights that he forgets how to explain it to someone who's never seen it before. Yeah. Right? So Steve's been making this monkey mod for so long that he forgot to add as part of the instructions like a couple of little steps because his Wizard of Oz has been parked for that long to kind of make it happen. So I gave him a few pointers on that to kind of add to the installation thing. But it didn't take long at all and I've made a couple of suggestions. That's what he's worked on and already fixed. It would take me, I don't know, less than 10 minutes to install on yours now that I know how to do it. Oh, okay, awesome. But everything that is done for the first time took me probably half an hour or so. But did you say that when you came over to do my ramp flaps on Hobbit that that would take half an hour and that took two hours?
    9:14
    I've got a really shit memory, Mike. I love it. We can time it. We can do a head-to-head live video if you want. Okay, and we'll film it. It's absolutely really riveting. Yeah, it can be the official installation video. Yeah, okay. Let's do it. Okay. Yeah. Definitely slap it out. Obviously, I won't touch the machine. It's Ryan that's coming up. You're the cameraman. Yeah, okay, cool. Thank you. I'll do that.
    9:35
    Some other news. Well, a little bit of news, but Deadpool code. Some more codes come out. A bit of bug fixes. You know, just a bit of polish, Ryan. Yeah, it's been polished. What we said last week, there was a bug. It's being fixed. The end. That's pretty much it. That's it, yeah. For those people that have got Deadpool, update your machine.
    9:55
    There's going to be a code update soon, Marty. I've heard through the grapevine that they're going to change the menu system. to the equivalent to the PIN 2000 menu system. Like, they're going to catch up to what they were, you know, the whole being like 19 years behind PIN 2000. It's going to happen. They've got a big screen. Use it, guys. No, it's not happening. It's never going to happen. It's so, so, I don't know. It doesn't really need it. I mean, it is nice. No, of course it doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah. So, well, okay, so speaking of Scott from Pinn Stadium, so this week Pinn Stadium had their big reveal of Orion's belt. So what do you know about Orion's belt, Ryan?
    10:40
    It wasn't the wearable belt. It's very disappointing. You're very disappointed. Very disappointed. Missed back up, Jani. I know.
    10:50
    So, look, I was waiting to hear about it. I woke up, I think it was Wednesday morning, first thing I did I went to This Week in Pinball, had a look at it, had a look at the reveal video, and then decided that we needed to speak to Scott.
    11:05
    Because you had no idea what the fuck it was. It was a cool video. I told him, spoiler alert, I did mention to him in this interview that I got to the end of the video and went, I don't know what that is. I get that it's a flasher system, but like a lot of people, I wanted to see it exactly where it was. So here we go. Here's the interview with Scott from Pinn Stadium.
    11:32
    All right, all the way from Cincinnati, it's Scott from Pinn Stadium. How are you, mate? Hey, I'm doing really good. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Look, I've been called a shill of Pinsadium and I wear that badge quite proudly.
    11:53
    I've obviously got a few sets and I guess we wanted to get you to come on because you have announced Orion's belt during the week. And I do want to talk about that obviously in detail, but I think it's probably important for people to understand where it's all come from before they can understand what is effectively a complementary product to the Pinsadium. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So where did this all start? Why did you create Pinsadium Lighting? Well, you know, I started collecting back in 2000, so going on about 19 years ago. And at that time, I had just picked up a black hole pinball because that was one I used to play when I was younger. And then I went right into a theater of magic and then Circus Voltaire.
    12:45
    Then within, I'd say, probably about a year, I decided I was going to just collect all the Bally Williams DMDs. I didn't know anybody that collected pinball. I just was in my own little world.
    12:57
    And I ended up getting up to about, I think, 37 of them. What? And it was just nonstop, like every week, picking them up. And they were cheap back then, but I had no idea what kind of deals I was getting. So I just got really obsessive about it, more so as a collector than a player at that time. Things have changed dramatically since then. So I got up to all these pens and I was just wanting to have the whole collection. It was almost like the baseball card sets but just on a little bit of a grander scale. You want to get all those. They were expensive, sure. Yeah, yeah. But they were affordable. They were coming in off container loads from you guys and Europe and all that like back then with Glory Days. In the early 2000s, you're right in the sweet spot of demand being pretty much down as the price was down.
    13:48
    Yes. And I didn't know that, of course, but now looking back, I'm like, gosh, that was the day. You always see posts, everybody's talking about that, the good old days, and it's so fun to reminisce about how much you paid for them. But anyways, it was like a collective thing for me because it was just so much fun and I enjoyed it. And I gradually started working on them, of course, when you get to that amount. I think I had all but three of them. It was like a Indy 500, which I was heard on the fence about. I just wasn't sure about it. And then there was two others, you know, whatever the other DMDs were back then. Oh, it was Pinbot, right? Yeah, Pinbot was one of them.
    14:34
    So I collected and got those after about a year or so and just enjoyed them, played them with my kids. The kids, of course, got burned out on them after about six months or so. And, you know, I thought, oh, we'll do it for the kids. But really, you know, it was just something I enjoyed myself.
    14:49
    And then later on in the years, around 2009, 2010, when the U.S. economy crashed, I, like everybody else, started selling the tin balls to just go ahead and reinvest into another business. So I ended up selling all of them. And then, yeah, yeah, I just sold them all. And, you know, it was not an attachment at the time. You know, other things are more important. And it was tough at first, but then I was just like, yeah, they're just objects. So I ended up starting to collect back in 2013 again. And that's sort of where the origins of Penn Stadium started.
    15:25
    Because in between that gap, I left from regular incandescent bulbs to I came back to LEDs. And I think for the first year from 2013 to 2014, I struggled with going the LED route because of the, you know, I was worried about changing the appearance of the game and keeping the original integrity of it. But my desire to improve the playfields lighting was heavy on my mind, and I had them in a location that was bad for lighting, a lot of reflection coming off the glass, and it was truly required for me to have exterior lighting in that room when I started my second round of collecting. So then I started ordering LEDs from Cointaker and Comet, getting some good LEDs and getting them in there. And man, it really started to brighten up the game. And I did notice that all the games needed at that point. So I just went through and just pretty much upgraded all the GIs and then all the inlays. However, once I got done, I realized that I was creating a lot of contrast with the darker play field and the bright lights coming out of the inserts. And it was creating hot spots, too. So, like, the areas where the GI bulbs were, it looked really good, but they extended out maybe a few inches around themselves, and that was about it. And if there wasn't another GI in that area, there was a big dark spot. And then combining that with the inlays with these two SMD and these four SMD surface mount diode chips for the inlays, it was just so bright and then dark that it was very contrasting for me.
    17:25
    So I think it must be more difficult to play because it wasn't as balanced, if you know what I mean. What sort of era of pinball machine are we talking about here for you to have that reference point where you said the playfield's too dark? Oh yeah, good point. I just assumed that you would know I went back to the Valley Williams and that's not fair to say, but I did. Yeah, I did go back to all the Valley Williams, DMD era again. And so anything from there up to, you know, some earlier Stearns later on that started creeping in the picture. They were like, not early Stearns, but like 2003, 2007 Stearns were coming in. And that's the ones I was working with. Okay. Yeah, they were incandescent Stearns, right?
    18:10
    Yeah. Yeah, they were incandescent. And then I picked up a Metallica that, you know, of course, the Metallica Premium had the LEDs in it. And that was really noticeable. It looked a lot better. But then I compared that Metallica to, I don't know, like the Theater of Magic, and it seemed even darker. But overall, everything was really dark, especially after upgrading those LEDs into the inserts. I just made it worse because I think it was almost like there were spotlights blinding in my eyes, and I was trying to see around the inserts where the ball was.
    18:45
    So that was a big struggle for me. And so then I went the I started ordering those spotlight kits and getting a lot of them from like, you know, different locations like Pinball Life. And I'd say each game I ended up putting about seven to nine spotlights in them. And that helped a little bit more because they're they're more raised off the play field. However, it really wasn't enough. It had a, you know, where they were shining, it was awesome, but once again I fell back into that scenario of where that shield, you know, the mirror lens or the frame around those spotlights wasn't pointing. It was really dark, and that's why I kept adding more spotlights, more spotlights. And then I started noticing the spotlights shining in my eyes off of the back glass, which just drove me nuts. So, you know, that was sort of the progression. And I think I was happy with that for a while, like, because I didn't really know anything other than everything was just brighter. But then the reflections in my eyes and some of those dark spots and the hot spots I was seeing in the play field started to grow on me. So then I started messing around with the early versions of the Penn Stadiums, which were very archaic, very put-together, home-bought off-internet LEDs and wires and massive wires, like a spaghetti of wires and solder. And I just had ideas, but I couldn't really formulate where was a good placement for it or how to do it. And so even like the trough lighting, you know, down by the flippers, I put that in there, but those would reflect off the DMD or the backlash in my eyes too. So hell no. That's sort of, you know, the first level I think before I took the big leap into going a little bit further into developing them. And I have to say it was never, ever an intention for me to sell the Penn Stadiums. As a matter of fact, they didn't even have a name. It was just Scott trying to light up his pinball machines. And I didn't even know any collectors back then. I mean, I had not, all the years I'd been collecting, I just was in my own little hole, you know, playing pinball.
    21:10
    Yeah, yeah, I was literally making it for myself and, you know, just wanting to try to improve them. So things did progress a lot further because some of my background is in app development, websites. For years, since 1998, I've been working for myself and built my own websites. And then gradually after the iPhone came out, I started making apps and messing around with some applications and got a few up on the app store. There were good, like, free kids' apps for, like, this kids' online virtual, like, massive multiplayer online company I was starting. It was just myself, though. It wasn't, like, anything, like, a big, you know, it was just me doing it. It's sort of like I'm doing Penn Stadium. It's just me.
    21:59
    And I had some remnants of those apps left over after, like, all that selling of the pinball machines and the economy going down and coming back up. And, you know, I just I ended up turning that into a business by making apps for like dentists, orthodontists, plastic surgeons. And just I just put the whatever I had of those apps and I marketed it to different industries. And it turned out that the dentists really were advanced. They enjoyed technology. They were heavy, aggressive marketers. And they're all about having the newest, latest, greatest equipment, including like websites. So I was marketing to them mobile web-based apps and consulting them on how to build patients through mobile marketing avenues, providing hosting, the website building, you know, search engine optimization, all kinds like mobile keyword platforms, SMS, text messaging. And so anyways, that's the background that I had. And then I thought that, you know, somehow if I could combine an app with some lighting system, but I didn't really have the lighting system developed.
    23:10
    So I one day envisioned myself as silly as I sound, but I just thought, you know, if I was a pinball and I was on the play field and I looked up, Where would be the absolute, absolute best spot for all the lights? And, you know, I think about as high as possible. Like when you go into a football stadium, you know, when you go into a game, you go in there and the baseball game or any of those games, the lights are always up top. And, you know, they're never down on the field, which if you take this comparison, it might make a lot of sense in comparing it. But all the GIs in the inlays are either in the play field or maybe a quarter inch above, right?
    24:01
    So it would be as if you went to a football game and you were sitting in the high seats, Which would be like us playing our Pimball machine looking down in the glass. And you were sitting in the highest seats there and the lights for the players were as tall or as tall as the players or down at their feet. You can never expect to get a good illumination. So that's how the concept of Penn Stadiums came about. And then the idea of attaching them using some kind of a mounting method, that was a struggle. You know, like struggling with how to get it up there. Finally, through about, I'd say, 50 or 60 different revisions and messes that I had created, I decided to use a magnetic system. And that's what's known as the magnet mount system now where they magnetically mount. So you don't have to attach anything permanently into your pinball cabinet. It's non-invasive and non-surgical. And so that was great because that got me then to be able to get some LED lights up there and just some off-the-shelf LED strips initially is what I was using. And so it obviously then gets released as the color changing and you've also got your GI and your flashes and it's all controlled by an app. How did the launch of this go and how did you get the concept of the product out there to the public? Well, after I figured out the mounting and also, you know, just being able to get some LED lights up there, I realized that something was special with it other than, you know, just me being able to seize because I told you I had not been hanging around anybody in the pinball industry, just didn't know any collectors, not purposely. I was just raising my kids and just staying in the house playing pinball and going out and doing daily operations. But I wasn't getting on RGP back even in the early days. I didn't even hardly know about it. And so I went up to Chicago Expo in 2015 for the first time, the Pinball Expo there. And I ran into a group of Cincinnati collectors, just one guy at the time, that was talking to me. And I had no idea he was in the Cincinnati group. And he was like, oh, yeah. He's like, you know, we're talking about Pinball. He's like, yeah. He's like, I collect. He's like, what do you got? And I told him, you know, I had a few games. And he's like, oh, I'm surprised we don't know you. And where are you out of us at Cincinnati?
    26:35
    You know, I think I had like maybe eight or nine games then. And then as I started talking, he was like, oh, yeah. He's like, I think I know. I think I know who you are. You bought a machine from my buddy. And, you know, he used that for, like, part of the deposit on a house. And then when we started talking and he was mentioning names, I'm like, oh, yeah. I was like, I remember that. I was like, well, my daughter was, like, really young back then. And I remember going and, like, taking her with me and, like, going, you know, she was, like, I don't know, maybe in her baby seat or something and going to pick up the machine. And so, anyways, we caught up on that. And then he said that we should get together after the expo sometime. And I said, you guys are more than welcome to come over.
    27:19
    So I guess, I don't know, two, three months later, in the meantime, I had been working on that project. You know, I started really working on it heavily. And it had come a decent way. And he had contacted me, came over a few times. We picked up a few pinballs.
    27:39
    And nobody had seen anything yet. I, you know, wasn't presenting it or even thinking about it. It was just in one of my machines in the corner. And then they finally came over, the whole group of Cincinnati collectors came over. And Trent Augustine, who is, as you know, he is probably, I think he's ranked number seven right now, or he's always in the top ten of Tilt Amusements, was in that Cincinnati group that came over. And he just was like, you know, adamant, like, you got something here. I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, I mean, these games, they're really well lit. You know, what are you doing? And I explained to him what I was messing around with. And he said to me, I think you need to go to the Ohio Pinball show here in a couple months with me and just put him on.
    28:26
    Well, let's see, it was probably several, several months later. So it was into the next year. It was Aerosmith was coming out. This is a fan. There was one up at Papa, a very early version of it.
    28:38
    Yeah, very early version. I had issues with the lights thing and mounting and all that. But a few months prior was the Pinball Expo in Ohio. Not Pinball Expo, but I should say the Ohio Pinball Show. And that's where I first presented Penn Stadiums. And Trent's like, hey, just bring them up. Come up with me. We'll put them in. We'll put them in the Aerosmith LE.
    29:01
    And I'm looking at him like where they were in that stage of development. I'm like, you want this in there? You know, like in the Omni LE, like it was the first Aerosmith LE that was out. So it was the first one in the wild.
    29:16
    And I'm like, okay, what the heck? You know, so I'll go up there with my soldering gun and stand by the machine and just sit there and watch and hope everything stays together. That's what it felt like, you know.
    29:30
    So I just, you know, I just went up there and put out some business cards. I had come up with that name Penn Stadium, and I just said I was going to do a pre-order of 100 of them, and that's sort of how it launched. And then the people started buying them. They saw them in that machine, and then I had them in a – oh, I had them also in a Rob Zombie, which was notoriously dark at the time. Not at the time. It's just a dark game. But it was one of the ones I took up there to demonstrate them. And then within a few weeks, they all sold out. And I posted up on Pinside, hadn't been on Pinside very long at all, and got a lot of questions. It was new. Just like a Ryan's Belt, it's hard to understand, and it's something new, so you've got to educate people on it.
    30:17
    So anyways, that was the first stage of it. But then you mentioned Papa. They were up at Papa, and Papa was, you know, still they weren't fully. Well I just remember it I just remember thinking this is what happened I remember seeing the Aerosmith there and I played it and we haven seen it in Australia because remember we get our machines months later And so I knew people that had pre-orders down or they paid the deposit or whatever and I'm sending them these pictures saying, oh my God, Aerosmith looks absolutely amazing. And it wasn't until later that they got their machines that I realised they weren't as illuminated as the one that I'd seen. I didn't even know that there was Pinn Stadiums on it, but I looked back, I actually looked back at the photo that I'd sent and saw that it had the Pinn Stadium card or something in the corner of the back box, right? Yeah, yeah, he had put that up there. I wasn't even at the show. Okay, yeah. Interesting, wow. So that was it, but I kind of had just noticed, I just thought it was, okay, oh my god, it's the next generation of Stern. But no, it was the add-on that made that. And I don't know at the time whether it was GI controlled or was it just on?
    31:34
    Yeah, no, those weren't yet. They were just on all the time. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, things progressed later. You're right. Wow, you go back with history more on Pinsidium than we even knew until this conversation. That's pretty cool. Well, there you go. Because I remember somebody texting me or emailing me, and I had just stepped up an email address a few months prior because I was like, okay, I'm going to get pennstadium.com. That sounds good. And somebody emailed me and they're like, I love your lights. They're like, but it looks like they're drooping a little bit.
    32:06
    And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm messing around with the mounting system because it was very early stage of trying to figure that out, Like buying off the shelf like magnet tape and stuff. It was, you know, nothing custom like I'm doing now. Right. Oh, it was sort of funny. But at the time I'm like, oh, man, I wish I was down there. I just was like, because you know how I am. Like I told you I stay up late and I think about things and I'm like, something's not right. It doesn't get off my mind and I'm miles away. I know that you are. Well, let's call it as it is. Let's say you're a little bit obsessive. Okay, sure. Yeah. Right. That's probably very accurate. And I think that's fine.
    32:48
    Because I guess probably from when you've then sort of released it and now you've gone on Pinside. And I sort of want to tackle this a little bit because I think the way that you've then been marketing the Pinsadium lighting system, I think it's probably been a bit polarising in that I don't think the Pimball community, The pinball community, people on forums, people that talk about pinball, they're really close to the manufacturers. They form these sort of almost relationships with these machines. So if you can come in and be somebody that has, you know, let's say a marketing plan that is pretty standard for most companies, that was a little bit jarring for a lot of people and probably continues to be because they don't expect somebody that is so, I don't know, visible with their marketing strategy, I guess. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, I know what you mean. And I think it was just, you know, because since I've been working for myself for 20 years, all I know is to self-promote whatever I'm doing. And because I don't have a team, I don't have, you know, like people to do those things for me. So I don't even think about it. And I actually enjoy it. And that's the thing that did before I told you, help dentists and help them to market their patients. Because if I don't market something or tell people about it and educate them, which is what marketing is, it's education, then you fail. It doesn't continue. And I felt like this was a product after other pinball collectors saw it and were asking for me to make them for them before I even tried to go to the show. I thought this is deserving of it. But, yeah, it did progress. You're right. Into like a decent marketing campaign for sure. Were you aware or have you been aware that it has been quite polarizing and that people sort of do accept it and people just go, you know, it's too much? You know, I remember that the first part of the time when I posted, I guess it was the beginning of last year when I posted the Pinsygium idea. And I, well, immediately it got shot down, of course, you know, like people just, because, you know, nobody understood it. And, you know, there's positive people. There's people aren't as positive. But then once it started picking up steam and all the kits sold out, people, I started educating them, which was really my marketing was going through that pin side thread.
    35:21
    Then to get people to understand the product, what I did is I posted up as many pictures as I could on that thread. I mentioned it to people. I set up even a Facebook page. I didn't even have a Facebook. I don't even do social media prior to that. So I posted up some pages or some pictures like before and afters of the machines so people could see them. And then I got feedback probably a month or two later after I'd started doing it that it might have been a little bit too much. That's what people were saying. And I didn't even realize it because it wasn't my intention to try to do too much of anything. It was just a matter of, hey, look, you know, like, guys, look what this is. Look what this can do. I wish you could see what I'm seeing. This is why I think it would be a huge benefit to the pinball industry. And I just got excited about it. And then I remember I got a call from, I don't know if it was Zach, because I had started sponsoring them with their show early, because they were just starting off too. And he's like, hey, I saw that post. He's like, you know, he's like, I love seeing the pictures. He's like, I think it's great. He's like, I think it's really awesome. He's like, but, you know, he's like, there's a lot of pictures going up, and we love to see them, but some people may not love to see those. And they have every ability to block them or not to view them or drain a thread, but they still continue to look at them. And he's like, so let's just let Penn State and speak for itself because the product had not launched, had not shipped then, Martin. It had not shipped, but the pre-orders had sold out. So I was trying to get people to see what they had pre-ordered, right? And to see, you know, what people who might order down the road would be able to see it. And so I just backed off. Just was like, I didn't even realize it was overload because that was never my intent. So I was just like, okay, I'll stay on my thread. But also, don't forget, like, the Pinball community for so long have been talking about how there is a lack of marketing of Pinball. When they're talking about the manufacturers, and that's because a machine comes out, let's say, every four months, so there's only really a marketing initiative every four months, and maybe it starts two days before the machine's released, I don't know, something like that, to then go from what we then have as a, let's call it a marketing cadence, right? You know, the pace in which it takes and the intervals in which it comes out to then, you know, messaging coming out, you know, daily and weekly.
    37:57
    You can sort of see why people are going, hey, hold on a second, that's a bit too much because I'm expecting my message to come out every four months and I'm now getting it every day. Yep, yep, exactly. And I was like, I was installing kits on my machines every day or coming up with a new advancement. And like when those kits had pre-orders had been purchased, there wasn't any kind of GI integration. It was literally just lights mounted on the side of the pinball machine. And thank God for the community, you know, of people on Pinside putting up suggestions of like, it'd be neat if you could do this and do that. So instead of me posting up pictures of, you know, the great difference in the lighting advantages of the play field, the before and afters, which were very dramatic. I just focused on development. I went back, focused on development, ended up adding the GI module, putting that in there, and then adding the flashers, that UV glow. And I also realized during that testing period that I needed to completely redesign the Penn Stadiums because they were really homebrew. It was completely homebrew, you know, and you don't, when I saw how much excitement people had for the games, and knowing the pinball collectors out there, I mean, these guys expect quality. I went back and redid everything. I even re-engineered, redesigned LEDs, PCB boards, had those manufactured to different specs because the ones you get, you buy them. If you really look at them and you take them and you test them and you feel them in your hands, those things, most of them are very inexpensive. And you wonder sometimes how they even work. I had problems with bulbs burning out, just, you know, low quality lighting, not very bright. So I even reengineered the LEDs. And then the GI module I took and designed a PCB board, printed circuit board from scratch, and made it all with solid state technology. The same thing that we're familiar with in a Valley Williams machine, all that stuff. They don't have relays in those machines. And maybe to help educate some people that don't know the difference, solid state and a relay, those are two different things. A relay, for example, has moving mechanisms inside the electronic components. So we're talking about the electronic components on the board. Or, you know, like when you open the back of your, I don't know, a Congo or any of these games, you got the chips, you know what I'm talking about, on the board? Yeah. Those are all solid state. But with relays, which is the way I had it, it's a moving mechanism inside that actually goes back and forth. And when you give it a current and it gets power, it actually turns it and it makes it move and it goes to the other side and makes a connection and it conducts. Well, those work, but the issue with it is it's a moving part, and if it's moving like that, then it's going to have a very short life. That's why Valley Williams went with solid-state technology. We don't realize that the solid-state chip is a remarkable improvement. A lot of home-based kits or people that are do-it-yourselfers, like I had started, I was like, oh, I'll just get a relay. It's affordable. It's cheap. I can do this. But then I thought about now these are going to go in an $8,000 Aerosmith LE, you know, and then it's got to last, you know, the lifetime of the ownership of that machine and then pass on to someone else. And, you know, all of us, we're all particular about our games and they have, you know, we have a lot of people have expendable money. So when they have that and they buy a machine like that, they're really going to want something to pass. So that's when I started adding those features. And then the UV glow, you know, I got that involved with the systems because I thought it would be really neat to add a flasher in addition to the GI that lights up. So that's a little bit of a progression there of where we were with that. As far as the marketing, the marketing part of it, I had stopped doing that and went into development. And then the product started shipping, and that's when it got really polarizing. It was interesting because the customers were so excited. They were more excited, I think, than I was, and they were posting up pictures. I couldn't stop it.
    42:29
    You created a beast. So, yeah, so round two. Round two, and these people were like, oh, is he paying you to do this? And it's like, no, I just paid him. I bought the product, and I paid him the money for his Penn Stadiums. He shipped them to me, and I love them. And that's when everything hit the fan. And in a good way behind the scenes, but it seemed like it was bad, you know, with people saying it was everywhere.
    42:54
    It actually was. And you couldn't get away from it. And this was me. I was a pre-Pin Stadium customer at the time. And I've got to admit, even at the time, I was like, oh, for fuck's sake, come on. I just, you know, I just want to find something else about another machine. And Pin Stadium was freaking everywhere. And I'm being really honest. I mean, you know we've got a good news story at the end of the story, but before I'd actually bought the Pinn stadiums, I was getting shitty like everybody else because I was just like, you know, who is this person and why are all these people being such rabid fanboys?
    43:32
    That's how it was. Yeah, yeah, totally. And also because I think you hadn't been this 20, 30 year Pinball veteran. You were this new person, a bit of an upstart that's come in and gone, I have invented something that you should have done the last 20 years.
    43:57
    I'm not saying you said that, but you couldn't help but say that. Right, like through the marketing and posting the pictures, it sort of basically was saying to people that, hey, this is a new product and maybe people looked at it that way. Like, you know, like they might have seen it that way, you're right, and I never would say anything like that, you know, or even felt the way. I was just excited. I'm like, I can see the darn play field and let's share it with everyone. No, well, and as you know, and that was exactly what happened to me when I first saw it. And I did really, I think, only see them after, I saw the pictures and I just thought, you know what, for my Star Trek, which is my beloved machine, I just wanted to brighten it up. And it was a bit of a gamble for me because people had sort of said, oh really it's only things like your Bally Williams and your older machines that are really going to benefit from it. And I just remembered at the time thinking, no, I had that Aerosmith experience where it still made something that was fairly well illuminated into something that was freaking incredibly illuminated. And that's exactly what happened. And obviously we now know I'm a complete chill for the Pinstadium company and I'm proud of it.
    45:14
    And also you do, I know I've mentioned it before, you do come and watch my stream. And so I do know and I speak to you often about how you are constantly, and I mean constantly thinking about this product. And, you know, you don't sleep. You're up at four o'clock in the morning. You are watching my stream. So keen to know then, you've obviously, you've had this big hit on your hand, you've had all your fans and then you've had your anti-fans.
    45:42
    Talk us through why you felt you needed to enhance the product and this is the path to Orion's Belt effectively. Okay, yeah, well, you know, one of the things is, just to backtrack just for a second, is that with the feedback about the marketing, you know, a lot of times people that say things, For a person that says one thing, and we've talked about this prior, there's usually other people that have other opinions. So, you know, a lot of people who, let's say, leave negative reviews, it's more than the people who leave positive reviews. So behind the scenes, all that stuff about, you know, it's too much and it's everywhere, which I think it did get rampant. It got crazy, and I had no control over it. Like, you know, past that first round of me posting stuff up, which was months prior, people were emailing me. I love your product. I see all these pictures, and I just think it's incredible. So for every one person that said something that they didn't like the marketing, there was like 100 people ordering them.
    46:44
    So then it just – and it turns into like how you see this new product, Rhymes Belt, coming out. I mean, because really Penn Stadium, when I started making it, I mentioned that it was just lights that were on the side, you know, and they were not synced. Well, the pinsiders and everybody in the community, people local or wherever, were the ones that gave me input as to what features they would like to get. What do they want? And I take it serious. I take the feedback and the suggestion box is always open. And I'm like, wow, this is awesome. People actually giving you free advice and input. You know when you do market research, you sometimes pay a lot of money for that. And this is free market research, you know, it's like, yeah, you guys, yeah. So I have posted up, you know, like, you know, hey guys, I really appreciate the input. And I think that it might sound like, oh, it's just, you know, semi-generic response. But my emotion behind saying that is so sincere because I know what I'm doing is I'm putting together ideas that I have in conjunction with the pinball community. And I've got stuff that I'm working on that's just awesome. And I can't wait to release it. And so, you know, the Penn Stadiums are a staple product now for most, you know, in their machines. It's, you know, it's been, you know, Papa approves them. They love them. They put them on Pinberg. You know, Keith Elwin played his game winning game in 20, you know, this year with them on. And Doug got nothing. Doug said usually, you know, it's a very sensitive area, you know, and it's very high tension in Pinberg sometimes. Not high tension, but there's a lot going on. You've got to make sure the players are happy. He said for the first time ever, players came up to him and said, thank you for getting these lights in the pinball machine. Yeah, that was great.
    48:42
    Particularly the old lights in the hands. That was great. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, one of the struggles was that you could see the lights from the side. And here's my point to this progression, and as I get to Orion's belt, The InvisiShields came out because the Penn Stadiums were very stealth. You couldn't see them when you install them, but when you get a couple games down, you could see those LED lights from the side. So I came out with the InvisiShield, and the InvisiShield just mounts and adheres to the top. It's an additional awning that blocks the lights, and that was key for Pinnberg because the games were all in a row, and they were lined up, and we didn't want to have anybody disturbed from the side, right? Yeah. And, like, people would see that from the side, and they can be bright after you get a couple games down. And that was another suggestion from the pinball community, and that's something I designed, made die cuts and molds, and had custom extrusions made just to get that at the right angle, measuring stuff like, oh, it's a half millimeter off, it's a millimeter too long, and, you know, I'm, like, getting this down to the nitty-gritty. It took me, like, six months to just make that. But so the Rhymes Belt comes into play because, I mean, I don't know, what's your impression of the UV Plus Glow Flasher option? Like, I want to hear from you what you think of it and, you know, first. My honest opinion is I like it, but sometimes it's too much.
    50:10
    You know, so I've really only got it on two machines at the moment, and I did have it on Game of Thrones. But, you know, it depends on where you can attach it to.
    50:23
    You know, with Wizard of Oz, you can only attach it to the witch. So it doesn't really happen that often.
    50:31
    On Star Trek, it happens too much. So it's, I like it, but you really are reliant on the machine that you're plugging it into to determine the frequency of it. But I certainly like the UV glow.
    50:49
    Yes. But my only other thing is, well, it works, I will say it works much better on blue or red machines as opposed to sort of green or yellow machines. And that's just the nature of purple, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, like that color spectrum you're seeing on some of the machines. Correct. Have you seen it on Attack from Mars? No.
    51:16
    Well, that's a very white and yellowish playfield, and it's UV reactive. So in that case, that one looks really good. But I think what you're talking about is probably like, what, like a Game of Thrones maybe? Yeah, Game of Thrones, yeah. Yep, yeah. And one of the things to point out about the UV Plus glow is it's in a nice spectrum to where, from feedback from my customers, everybody's got their opinion too, and your opinion, it's totally right because that's the way that you're seeing it. And I agree with you. But you can adjust them through the app, the UV Plus Glow, but you can connect it to different flashers. And whatever the machine's doing, the flashers are going to do. So if it flashes them and pulses them hard, then it's going to make them really bright. You know, you can't adjust the brightness of it. So what I recommend is looking out to different flashers because, for example, on Guardians of the Galaxy, You can hook it up to the Orb or on the Aerosmith. You can hook it up to the toy box, and it's just a really nice glow that comes on. You know, it's not real intense, and it fades in and off, and it comes in at a different frequency. So you could move it around.
    52:31
    I think you moved yours to the Vengeance on Star Trek. Yeah, and I seem to like that location of it, personally, because you actually told me about it. I think Zach meant that to you. I do as well because not only is it quite active, but when you get the super amps mode, it actually pulses purple, which is kind of very cool as well as a different effect.
    52:56
    Yeah, I've seen you get pretty excited about that on the Twitch streams. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So then obviously that's the lead into Orion's Belt, which is additional flashes. And as I said, it is a complementary product, but it also is standalone. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Absolutely.
    53:17
    So the UV Plus Glow has been extremely popular. I would say out of every 100 kits that I sell, 98 of them are UV Plus Glow.
    53:27
    But since everybody's got the taste of the UV Glow and it's pretty hot, they want more features. They want, like you said, the ability to control colors, control brightness. And to, you know, have more flexibility because now you're spoiled with the Penn Stadium app because you just go in there with the GI and you can adjust the GI colors. You know, you can change the, I mean, it's got independent white lights. You can adjust the brightness of those. And, you know, those, that's a neat feature because, I mean, just to explain, because I think some of our conversations, And it's based upon everybody hearing this and knowing what the Penn Stadiums are. But the GI lights on the side that are cross-facing, you know, going across the playfield, they've got embedded in the light bars are two sets of lights, meaning two colors of lights or two styles of lights. One's the RGB, which are the color changing, and then there's the white lights in between. So in between every other one embedded in between is these white lights. So in that app, you can adjust the brightness of the white lights, which is really important because, I don't know, I mean, you probably noticed, Martin, but the white lights are what gives you the illumination. And then that color wheel on the app that we're familiar with, that's what gives you the color on the play field. Like, that's actually what gives you the color casting. So what I do when I set it up, I'll turn the white lights off completely. I will turn on the Penn Stadium. Then you use that color wheel and you move it around to where you see the artwork come alive. You'll notice like if you get in like a gold tone like on Game of Thrones, that pops versus like doing green. And then you dial up that white brightness. So that flexibility of control is something that people wanted with the flasher option. And so the Orion's Belt is, it's insane what it does because you can, it's really a complete flasher system for your pinball machine. It, as you mentioned, it does not have to work with the pin stadiums. But I know when you released it as well, it was, and I was in the same boat as well when I was going, I get what you're saying. And it's all about the flashes. I kind of got that. And I know you'll address this as well, but I was in the same camp of people that were going, but what does it look like? I can't tell what this is. Like, I know. I know it's got this. And I watched the video. And I got to the video and I went, okay, I get that it's flashes, but I don't get where the flashes are. And then he went on to Pinside and started explaining it. But really, it is. It looks very similar to the original Pinstadium strip that you've got, but it's thinner, and ideally you would want them underneath, but it's still Magna mounted, and it's still controlled by the Pinstadium app. Yes, yes. Instead of having a GI module, it's got a flasher module, which is just a little bit bigger. I mean, the G.I. module is about two and a half by three inches. This is about, no, it's about two by three. And then the flasher module is way more advanced. And it's about, I'd say, a half inch wider, maybe an inch longer.
    56:54
    And it's got some really cool buttons. So in that video, you know, it tells you about the five top secret buttons. And those five top secret buttons are really, I didn't put that one right away. You know, imagine this. Okay, so you know me up late. Right now, the way I feel with this Penn Stadium and the Orion's Belt and just pinball in general, I'm so excited about it that I know sleep's important and I do get my sleep, but it feels like an inconvenience right now because when I started with Orion's Belt about a year ago, I had this idea. And it's all these ideas, you know, for me and the customers for what I could do with it. And then I had these buttons just made it all happen and made it come together. So redesigning that PCB board, I mean, I think I announced that I was going to do a Ryan spell. Oh, I know for sure in March at TPS. And people were like wanting to know more. But it progressed so much more since then. And those buttons are what allows you to, this will let me explain the Ryan spell, It is like a similar Pinsidium design, same quality and everything, but it's a lower profile, same length, hides very stealth underneath the Pinsidium, and it takes that flasher option you had on the Pinsidium. Well, it makes that functionality possible now with the machine because you can adjust the brightness of each of the flashers. You can adjust the color of each of them. So right now, you know, if we go to buy flashers and we get, you know, some good flashers, put them in there from Comet or whoever, you get, you know, red, green, blue, turquoise, and white. And those are all still great to do in the machine because those are really specific hot spots to where you are making events trigger and you're hitting stuff. But the Orion's belt, you know, you can have, let's say, red set for the sarcophagus on Iron Maiden when the sarcophagus gets loads. Well, these are side-firing, and they're all up and down just below the pensadiums that you have. You know, they're all up and down the playfield. You can't see them. They've got the InvisiShield built into them, so it's not even separate feet. Can you attach those to existing flashes in the game or can you now attach it to any event that's happening in the game? You can attach it to anything. I mean, as long as it's a 4 volt to 24 volt trigger, you can attach it to anything. I mean, it's just most people want to do the flashers with that. Okay, and my other question about that is, is it still flashing all those particular color LEDs along the strip or can you actually assign which section of the strip it is, whether it's at the back or whether it's at the front? No, it's actually the whole section is assigned all at once, and it's not individual like addressable LEDs. But what you do is with those buttons, I probably really jumped ship on that. I should go back to it, is there's five buttons. There's one button where you press the flasher module, and that lets you program. So you choose flasher number one. Let's say you have it hooked up to the left spinner on Iron Maiden. You can dial in the color wheel, what color you want, and then the brightness level of that flasher. Then you hit the flasher number one button on that board. It stores it just like a radio station preset would. It remembers that, literally that frequency, that light color. And then you go to the sarcophagus, let's say, where you have it hooked up to sarcophagus bulbs. It's just a wire, clips on the bottom, and then that's how the Orion Spoke gets the connection. And then you dial. Okay, so going back just a little bit. So therefore it has a lot more wires that comes out of the flashing unit itself. Yeah, just two more sets of wires than the Pinstadiums. Okay. Because it's four pairs. Four pairs, right, cool. Yep, got it. Yep, exactly. So it's just like Pinstadium, just add two more, clip, clip, done. It goes on and off the machine. If you sell it, you can move it to another one. Oh, okay. Each one of those pairs is corresponding to one of those buttons Yes exactly It trigger that button And that it always allows you to get into the app to change it and then you store it And after that, you just, you know, you just play. And, you know, if you want like a pink flasher, if you want a gold flasher, you know, flash your colors that were never possible. Pastel blue, you know, and you can change it around. If you don't like maybe a certain trigger, you think that maybe green's not the right color, you just change it and dial it in. And it's just something that's never been done before. And it's like it's the same thing with Penn Stadium when it came out. It's literally something you have to see. Like that's what's going to sell it. You know, that's what it's going to be is people coming in, seeing it at the show, seeing it at Expo.
    61:53
    And the video, you know, like you said, the video, there's no way in that video, even though it has all the information that I'm talking about, You can't absorb it because it's a new product. It takes me, I mean, even me now explaining it, you know, over our conversation, like, it's better seen than talked about. You know, it has to educate the market. No, I understand. But as I said, I got to the end of the video and went, I get that it flashes. I want to see how it works. And then when you're talking about five buttons, that kind of confused me a little bit more. I get it now because I understand that each one of those corresponds to some connectors that you're putting anywhere you want in the machine. So you can now have four different trigger points in your pinball machine to then correspond to a different type of or different color of flasher.
    62:51
    Yes, yeah, exactly. And the buttons don't limit you to just like a red, green, blue or white because that's what we've been stuck at. Because on LEDs, you only have those colors. And any other color in between is a mixture of it. And you have to have some kind of control system to do that. And that's what that button and then the buttons in the Pinstadium app. And then the Orion's belt generates its own Wi-Fi signal so you can connect to the phone to change those. And, yeah, so they're side-firing. So they're firing across that play field. So when you see, when you lock the sarcophagus on Iron Maiden and it turns red, I mean, it is literally a sight to see. I can't wait to just play the game just to go back and see that, you know, just to like shoot that shot because of the color, the colors of that play field and the red. It's almost like, you know, it's just intense is the only way I can probably, the only way I can explain it, you know. But then if it was too intense, you dial it down, right? Like you go a little bit lower. And that's what everybody wanted. So you're taking orders for them now, and when do we expect delivery?
    63:59
    Well, I'm doing an initial run of 200 of them. They have been selling like mad, and now that it's fully explained, it's been really picked up, and the shipping time is going to be four to six weeks. They are not a pre-order. They are in production, as we speak, on the line at the Finn Stadium factory. And so, yeah, four to six weeks is very realistic right now. And there are still some left. I don't know how long they'll be available, but as the time of this recording, you know, there are still some available to order. And, you know, I think I might be able to deliver some expo, but I can't promise that just yet. Okay. So let me, I've got one final question for you then. What do you say to people that say, well, I can just buy a strip of LEDs and it's only going to cost me $20 or $30 instead of what the Pinstadiums cost? Because what are they? They're $150 for the Pinstadium and $250, is it, for the Orion Spell? Well, Pinstadiums are, no, they're about priced the same. The Penn Stadium base is $150 for the light bars. That's just somebody that's just wanting a replacement light bar, but then you get the GI module and the UV glow, you're right around $260, $270, and everybody's been happily paying that for it. The Ryan's belt's a little bit cheaper, $20 cheaper, so I think fully loaded Penn Stadium with InvisiShield is $279, so about $280. This is $259, so $260.
    65:36
    And, yeah, I mean, with any type of product that you're trying to do, like do it yourself, I've seen people, you know, working on these and trying to duplicate it. I mean, it took me a couple years to even get it right. And it's just, you know, the LED quality itself that you're buying off the shelf, those things are just really barely any brightness at all. Quality, you know, they really don't hold out. You won't get the brightness out of them. That's the biggest thing. And then the longevity. And beyond that, you know, the main thing is the board. The PCB board is the brains behind the operation. That's where everything happens. That's like the brain of Penn Stadiums is the board has, you know, very advanced technology and circuitry on it. And even with Orion's Belt, that's even more complex because there was software programming that I had to do to literally read events coming from the pinball machine, sequence them and trigger them and then store them and then play them back all within milliseconds.
    66:41
    You know, so just those things alone right there are what makes the interactivity key. If not, you know, you're going to just get some dimly lit lights that are flashing on and off and they're not going to last. And, you know, trying to get these things to mount on the side of the machine. I have, it's funny that, you know, I told you about Papa a while back where somebody was like, oh, these lights, they look so good. Like, but they're sort of drooping down. Well, that's what happens, you know, when you go and you buy some aftermarket, you know, off-the-shelf magnetic tape. And I had a buddy that was, of all things, coincidentally, a friend with somebody who was in the adhesion industry. And he told me, he said, the reason you have this problem, you will always have this problem, is because the biggest enemy to adhesion is vibration. And I thought, well, a vibration in a pinball machine, you know, there is a lot of vibration, especially if you've got a shaker.
    67:38
    And I didn't know that. So, you know, I thought, oh, man, now this is something else. But this is good. This is a solution. So I had the magnet mount system actually custom made from a company to my specs because I couldn't find anything that worked. And I wanted something super thin. Now, you know, like the HD magnet mounts are so thin and they're twice as powerful in half the thickness so they can clear when you raise that play field. And that was key. But the fact that they stay once they're on and they get a good bond, you clean them. You clean that pinball machine before you install it. You just put the little alcohol wipe that comes with the pencetium packet. You wipe it down good. You know, it's going to be there. It's going to be there. You got that good bond. And that's just one of the many things that makes it an exceptional design for the mounting portion of it is just because the fact that it's got permanency to it and it's not something that was thrown together. And, you know, I don't know, I spent hours each night and every day for the last year or two developing all of this. And it was a lot, you know, it didn't wear me out. It was more than I could have ever expected. I thought initially, eh, I can do this, you know, put this thing together, do this and that. And that's what was up at Pinball, Ohio Pinball Show. When I said that, Trent was like, hey, come on up here, bring that up. And I'm like, are you sure? And he's like, yeah. I mean, I really, Martin, I was sitting there, really. I had a soldering gun heated up, and it was down there, and it was down behind the pinball machine, ready to go. And I was just like, okay, if I need to get on here, well, it wasn't heated up, but I had to heat it up. And I had to get in there like every, you know, every hour or two. And then I had extra magnetic strips, and I was like trying to do it when people weren't looking and like put new ones on. I'd be hiding behind the Aerosmith LE or my Rob Zombie. I'd be standing next to it or open the glass and push these things back on. Then I'd fix the solder. I'd see a section of lights going out. That's the thing about these. You mentioned just buying LED strips. The sections of lights go out all the time, especially when you are sequencing them and running them to the machine. They're going off, on, off, on. It's a lot of duty cycles. And you'll hear like in the interviews with Scott Denisi when he talks about his machines, you know, he will get a machine and he will fire a coil a million times into a ramp or into, you know, something and test that mechanism out. And after that period of time, you know, you realize these things go through a lot. And I found that out because this first year of me messing with it, these things were going out, sections were going out, solder joints were breaking, and the PCB boards that these LEDs were mounted to were so thin and the solders weren't good. It was a nightmare. So I guess that's a long-winded answer as to why there's a lot of development in that kind of thing. There is, yeah. It really is. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. I really do appreciate it. As you know, I am a Prince of Hadean fanboy. So I have actually ordered a set of Orion belt as well.
    70:51
    I know. I know, you know. Which will go on my Star Trek, which is my most beloved machine, and I think it'll look great on that. So really appreciate it. Thanks for the product, and thanks for coming on. Yeah, you're welcome. I really appreciate, Martin, everything that you and Ryan do, and I cannot wait to see your guys, your shows in the morning when you stream. And, you know, it's an honor to be on here. Keep up everything that you're doing because you're blasting through all the way into the U.S. and we love you guys. Thanks, mate. Really appreciate it. Okay, I'll talk with you later. All right. Thanks, mate. Thanks, Scott. Thank you. Okay, goodbye.
    71:24
    So there we go, Ryan. What did we learn there from that interview? I haven't listened to it. I learned nothing.
    71:32
    That's why I asked. Look, here's a couple of things that we learned. But first of all, you know, this is kind of a, I don't know whether people will appreciate this parallel, but I'm going to draw this parallel. It's like Scott, you know, doing his TNA. He wasn't making this product to sell, to be out there and to be mass marketed. He was making something for himself. And so that's what Scott from Pinsadine was doing. He was just building these strips because he just wanted to have the machines that he had at home, of which he had a lot, to be better illuminated. And then, you know, all of a sudden Trent Orkenstein's over there going, hey man, you need to take these to a show. And then all of a sudden there's demand for a product. He's then got to completely redo the product to get it out to market. And then everybody's wanting it. And he's then posting up some pictures. It then snowballs. And all of a sudden, it's crazy. And he's got a business. So it wasn't one of these things that was carefully planned. He kind of just stumbled into this. And, you know, he's done well. Cool. Well done, Scott. Yep, well done, Scott. And as I said, yes, I have bought a set of them. And I'll tell you why, Ryan.
    72:54
    Yes? For a couple of reasons. We sort of talked about this before we started recording because you thought I was crazy.
    73:01
    It'll go on my Star Trek, right? That should be enough for you to say, yep, okay, I get it. I just didn't understand before. I haven't listened to the interview yet. If it was, I thought it was an add-on to Pinner Stadium or you can buy as a full set. I didn't know that the $200 and whatever it costs is just for the additional flasher set. It's just for the additional. So, again, the way I see it is my absolute favourite machine is Star Trek. I don't know if I've ever mentioned that before. So, for that money to what I believe now enhance that and make it even better, as a proportion of the value of that machine, I don't see that being a problem at all.
    73:48
    But it's just flashes, right? You're hooking up flashes to certain colours, right? Right? Yeah. So you have like four, is it four of them? Four separate flashes. So you're hooking it up to a certain flasher on the machine and then you are then choosing what colour you want that to flash. Okay, so like when you hit a warp ramp, I'm pretty sure a flasher will go off somewhere. Correct. So you can now... Choose a colour for that. Okay. And it's going to light up your whole room in that colour? Like how bright is it? I don't know. Okay. But, you know, you can control the brightness. So, you know, it could be as bright or as subtle as you wanted. It could be white, it could be a colour. You sort of get to pick it. And it does the same sort of thing where you've got the app where you've got the colour wheel and you just choose whichever colour you want and set it and there you go. So, you know, it was probably the one thing that I really thought about with my Pinsadium kit is that, you know, I've got the UV glow and it's just that one flash the whole time. And if you could... But flashes aren't on all the time. Right? No, that's right. For a split second. So it's there to accentuate an event.
    75:00
    Okay. Effectively. I mean, I can't knock it until I see it in person because I said the same thing about Pinset in general. I thought that was a bit of a dumb idea until I saw your set. I'm like, okay, that looks pretty good.
    75:13
    So I could quote something else. But it's true. So anyway, so they'll be shipping in four to six weeks and I look forward to streaming and setting them up and possibly shorting out my machine if I do it myself. Blinding yourself? Yeah, probably. Joining the Dwight Sullivan club? Sure. This must be a side venture by Dwight Sullivan as well. He's gone to Scott and said, look, if you really want to fuck with people's eyes, Flash is where it's at. But look, you know what, it's one of these things where, and Scott says it himself, it's not for everybody. You know, people are going to look at this and say, no, I don't dig this at all. And that's fine. There's people that are. It's not meant to replace, you know, any of the LED globes that you would put in your machine, like for GI. It's not to replace that. So if you still want your LEDs, get your LEDs. This is just another enhancement. And, you know, we've talked about this before. When we've seen other mods where there's toys, like, you know, let's say Tron, where you've got the little interactive arcade machine, right? That's a bit of money for that.
    76:31
    Oh, yeah, that's a shitload of money. How much is that? It came with my machine, but I'm pretty sure like 400 Australian dollars or something ridiculous like that. And a little plastic thing, it does fuck all, right? Has anyone ever complained about the price on that?
    76:50
    You know why? Because there's nothing to compare it to. Whereas when you say flashes, you can say, okay, well I can buy flashes for this X amount. Yeah, that's right. But I guess it isn't the same because, yeah, anyway. It's just one of those things where it's a product for people that want it, if people don't want it. And this is the whole pensating thing. You either do or you don't. There's no middle ground, I don't think.
    77:14
    Yeah. All right, let's move up. Pinkelia, that place that kind of burnt down in Australia after, I think, a kitchen fire. They're back. They kind of did like a little underground unofficial reopening, so that's exciting. We didn't know if they were going to open again and how long it would take, but that's good news. Just to finish off a loop of the story.
    77:39
    Pinball Expo, Marty, is coming in about... It's coming up. Yes. I heard a rumour and I can't really say what it is but it's going to be big from everyone. Like a lot of people think, okay, well only this might be showed and that might be showed.
    77:56
    Everything you think that is going to be showed is going to be shown. It's one of those stupid things that, you know, I can't say exactly what's going to happen but if you're in the US and you want to be there, make sure you're there. Yeah, well, you know what, we do get rumours all the time. I haven't actually heard much about Expo, so I don't know where you're getting this stuff from.
    78:24
    Okay, it's not Ned, it's not our friend Ned, but he did talk to me about some other stuff and he did want to come on the show again, so should I dial him in now and get him in the conversation? Bring him in, I won't say. Alright. Okay.
    78:39
    No, I think he's already in. Hello, Neb, is that you? What the fuck do you think it is? I'm just making sure, man. I'm just making sure that you've got your voice modulator all activated again. A couple of requests to bring you back on the show. People like the information that you gave. Are you ready to talk this week? Only a couple of requests? Forget it. It's a waste of my time. Thousands. Alright, now I'm in. Okay.
    79:04
    So, I want to talk first about Spooky and J.J.P. There's a couple of whispers, you know, in the podcast sphere about what's happening with those two companies. They're really struggling to produce Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle and Pirates of the Caribbean in any significant quantity, so do you have any goss about that? I know the inner details of everything in those companies, but I really can't tell you. Okay, I remember how to do this. Please!
    79:28
    Yeah, it might have worked last week, but not this time. Sorry, man. Pretty please! Alright, alright, you got me. The big rumor is that they're going to be merging. J.J.P.M. Spooky, you're talking about. Yep, yep, it's happening, trust me, it's going to happen. How does that work out? Well, Squirrel's now in charge of cartwheels, and Jack is going to be looking after Alice Cooper. He's going to add 22 characters to choose from. It's going to be fucking great.
    79:57
    Why is Squirrel in charge of cartwheels? I thought Jack was pretty good at that. Jack's not really great with wheels or discs or anything like that. Let's just keep away.
    80:07
    That is pretty hard. That's good, man. That's some good information. I mean, we're meant to have Todd Tucky on, so it's good to kind of have you in for a little segment. Todd Tucky. I've got dirt on him, too. Yeah? About his book deal? What can you tell us? No, I can't tell you that. Forget it. Pretty please. Really? I even said it. Forget I even said it. Pretty please. My lips are sealed, I'm not telling you shit. I don't know what I need to do if I say it's pretty please. Come on, please.
    80:37
    Here's the scoop. Todd Tucky can't even read. I don't know, man. He has a ten-book deal. I don't think he's going to get a ten-book deal if he can't read. Are you bullshit, man? Are you just trolling us? You're the one who fucking called me, man. You don't want the info? I'll leave. See you later, I'm out of here. Oh, well, just give us something that's good. Give us something that's worth podcasting about. Look, I know too much. I know the full code of Deadpool and everything. I can't tell you nothing. What can you tell us about Deadpool? I'm taking that one to the grave with me. Sorry, man. Not happening. Pretty please?
    81:12
    What do I look like, an idiot? No way! Come on, man. How is it like, I don't know, maybe a kangaroo nutsack? What do I look like, Kim Sexton? What do I need another nutsack for? Look, Deadpool is a great game, it's been received well, especially the art. Give us something, what can you tell us about the game?
    81:33
    Zobie Eddie, do you know how he got his name? How's that? Necrophilia! What? The man loves the dead, let's just say that. Okay. Can't trust those artists, they're all foolish, yet. Well how about Dirty Dummy, he's a pretty sad enough guy. He has a shower everyday, I know what dirty my ass. Are you making this stuff up, come on, what can you really tell us, you've gone through two artists, I think what you said is bullshit on both of them. I've got gold on Franchi, I can tell you his next game. And how would I know that you know that? Because I've got a camera on his computer, I can see it right now. You're looking at Christopher Franchi right now. I'm looking at his computer. I can see what he's working on right now. Do you want to know or not? Finish up with a bang. What can you tell us about Christopher Franchi's next game? Let me just check his computer here. Oh, I can see it. Apparently, his next game is Pornhub.
    82:44
    He's been working on it forever. But he stops every minute. He only does it a minute of the time. It's on a computer screen. Why does he need Kleenex to wipe it? Oh.
    83:05
    I've told you too much. I've got to get the fuck out of here. Beat it. See you, Ned. Funny. Where do we go from there? Let's talk about another rumour that I've heard. Apparently, this week, Monster Bash Remake is going to be announced officially.
    83:31
    Haven't we been going through this for the last six months, basically? It's going to be this week for sure. We're putting it out there, it's this week. Okay. If it's not, it'll be this week. That's on Marty. No joss from it. I can tell you there is absolutely more substance in what I just said than anything Ned just said. I think that the Pornhub thing might be a thing. Oh, except for that. That was very likely.
    84:00
    What else? Patreon. Marty. A while ago now we got an email from someone saying, I really enjoy listening to your podcast. I want to kind of donate something and Marty, I'm going to buy you some gin. And Ryan, what do you like? And I was just kind of like, yeah, I don't have like, I don't really drink alcohol that much and I don't really have like a go-to gift that people can buy me.
    84:24
    So I suggested to you a while ago that we should maybe do a Patreon because if people really want to donate and they want to say their appreciation in any way, then who are we to say no? Exactly. And when you did mention it to me, what was my response?
    84:38
    I think you said no, let's not do it. I think that is the shortened version of it. It's like, fucking really, seriously, we don't want money. But we don't want money. You've got so much money, it is just unbelievable. And I've got even more. That's right.
    85:00
    You trip over it, I spoon at money. That's right. So I was won over by the Patreon idea when you said, well, we can then, it'll activate things. People will get something in return. And I went, okay, I'm in. Kickstarter. You know me. I freaking love a good Kickstarter model. You know, give us all your money and we will deliver nothing. So that's what we've done. We have set up a Patreon, patreon.com slash head-to-head pinball. We will link it in the show notes. You can support for as little as a dollar per month or three dollars per month all the way up to only fifty dollars per month. Holy shit, Marty. Fifty dollars. What do you get? Fifty dollars a month. Okay. Well, how these things work is it's all about perks and tiers. Okay. So and we've been really clever naming these tiers. So the first tier is called Supporter and that's if you give us a dollar and you get our gratitude and you can get your name called out on the show. Ryan made me type in there optional because there may be some people that don't want to have their name called out. Who doesn't? That's crazy. The next tier is Competer. You get that plus every time you enter one of our competitions your entry will count twice. I know, that's pretty amazing. So do they get automatically entered if it's just like a nothing contest? When they enter, it counts twice. The next tier is collector and that is $5 per month. You get all of that above, like all of it, just brimming with perks. Plus you go into the annual prize draw of Pimball goodies.
    86:48
    Nice. The next one is contributor. $10 a month. I don't know who would do this. Crazy people would do this. So you get all the above plus access to bonus content. So we are actually going to record bonus content and you will be the only ones that get access to that. It'll be shit, but it'll be bonus content. Are we, sorry, is this going to be stuff that we cut out of the podcast of like, ah, that's shit, let's give it to the bonus people? Or is it going to be specifically done for the bonus people? It'll be a bit of both. It may be an interview that we do that's absolutely crap and we just say, you know what, have this. You know, you gave us the 10 bucks, here's a shit interview. Or, you know, we could finally release the unedited Mike from Home pin. No, we cut out so much of that. I know.
    87:36
    Start also with that one, the contributor. You also go in the yearly draw to be a special guest on the show. Oh, shit. Okay. So that's awesome. Now we're talking. And really anything above that no one's going to go for. But, well, you might do because if you're a promoter, you'll actually get a head-to-head T-shirt. How much is that? What's the... That's $20 a month. Okay. Yeah. That's fine. You only get a t-shirt if you've been with us for 30 months. Three months. So you've got to pick your bucks and then we'll give you a t-shirt. We are really just fucking fleecing you all. Then the next one is a celebrator. We give you $30 a month and you get everything above plus you get a message from us. A message? Like what do you mean? Yeah, we'll send you, you know, maybe a bag of jizz. I don't know, what?
    88:28
    I don't know if you're going to be funny, but you're asking. We will send you a message saying, happy birthday, you know, use the name 123.
    88:39
    We will do. We will do a band on Patreon the first week. But the final best year, now this is where the value is, right? Here's the value. The value.
    88:53
    Why did you come up with that? I just said, I'm going to get my parcels. I don't want to open this. Oh no. So anyway, so the highest tier, like literally it's $50 a month. Like you would have to be absolutely insane. However, that's stalker level, you should just call it stalker level. Maybe there's people that want to give us $50 a month. We would love it if you did. What you will get is your name called out on the show. Oh, actually also, when you are a supporter of that first tier, you will also get access to our member-only exclusive chat. I don't know what that is, but I can tell you it'll be Ryan.
    89:42
    You also then get double your competition entries. You also go into the annual prize draw of the pinball goodies. Also, you get access to bonus content and go in the yearly draw to be a special guest on the show. And you get a t-shirt. And you get a birthday message. And you get a gift voucher from either Pinn Stadium or Pimball Life to the value of $200.
    90:07
    Oh, that's pretty good. After 12 months. We need you. $600, bitches. Oh, gosh. I'd be happy with $1 from a couple of people. You know what?
    90:22
    If people honestly do those tears, we will absolutely cough up and do exactly what it says. We would be happy with $1.
    90:34
    And guys, don't think that we're now getting greedy and we're not going to release content until everything gets paid. Me and Mali will keep on doing this if we make $0 for the rest of the thing. Because we just have fun doing it. But you know what? If people want to donate prizes to the podcast for us to give off, and this is the way, if you don't have a prize to give away and you want to donate money so that we can buy prizes to give away and come and see you at events in the US, all the money is going to go towards that. We're not going to spend any of the money on non-Pinball related stuff, right? I mean, unless you become one of those people on Patreon that earns, was that one you showed me? A hundred thousand a month or something? Yeah, yeah. Some crazy guy. We're never going to get $100,000 a month. No, no, we're not. And if we did, I'm telling you now, we would take that money and run and give you nothing.
    91:27
    But it's monthly money, so we have to keep it. Oh, damn. If we get to some crazy level, then I reserve the right to spend on non-Pinball stuff, but it's never going to get to that level. So it's all going to be on prizes and travel and all that kind of stuff, right? Well we already got one patron so we are in the big game I was cleaning up my Pimball room again and I found the dialed in back box dialed in back box decals Yes, the side decals for the back box signed by Jersie Jack. I will give that away to a Patreon subscriber in the next two weeks. I'll give people two weeks to sign up. If they want to, even if it's for $1, anyone, then I'll give that to them. Okay. Well, then, do you know what? That's the kind of stuff that we're going to do, is we'll just get shit and go, we can either come up with some crappy competition on the show, which we will continue to do, or we'll just go, you know what, Patreon members, you just automatically go into the draw.
    92:29
    Yeah. We haven't really figured it out. Nah. You can tell it's just for shits and giggles. So, anyway.
    92:36
    Okay. Cool. Well, the Twerpies, Marty. The Twerpies is all about the best stuff in Pinball, done by Jeff from Deadpool Pinball. The Twerpies, I know it's really early, we're not going to do it now, there's still more games to come out and start shipping before the end of the year. I just want to put it out there now so we know that we're either doing it or not doing it. Are we doing the Twerpies this year? Yes. Okay, done. No hesitation. I already know, worst machine of the year. Okay. I want to do some other segments as well about, because last time we just did it as a last minute thing and we pretty much copied Dizzeke and Pinball and just did the opposite. You know, the best artwork, the worst artwork. I want to have a bit more detailed stuff. You can answer five questions or 20 of them if you want. I won't make it mandatory to fill the entire sheet out. But maybe stuff like the worst reveal, the worst, this, this and that. And it's not meant to, you know, people talk about this stuff anyway. It is just the reverse of the Twippies, right? Like, the people who come last on the Twippies is the people who come first on the Twippies, right? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Okay. I like that. Something like that.
    93:47
    All right. So, social media watch. No one's been posting anything on Facebook lately. People have got scared after the social media watch. I know. They now know it's going to get announced. Everyone's beating me off Facebook. It was Christopher Frenchy's birthday. He turned 52, Marty. Did he want everyone to know that he's turned 52?
    94:12
    I'm... Oh, shit. Did I... Oh, shit. That was private. Well, it's not anymore. Well done. He's 52. Thanks. That's alright. I'm close to death, so that doesn't matter. Happy birthday, Mr. Frenchy. Happy birthday, Frenchy.
    94:28
    I saw... This wasn't really on social media, but fuck, it's in here anyway. Well, I was on Pinside. Yeah, that's kind of. Social media, kind of. You can up and down vote, sure. Yeah, sure. So we're talking about Chicago Gaming Company again, aren't we? Yeah. So there was a person on the forums, CGC Ashley, and she was kind of the new spokesperson, I guess, on the forums and stuff for CGC. Yep. She no longer works at CGC, Bonnie. Gone. She had the job for like two months. Gone. Thanks, Ashley. Nice knowing you. I messaged her for an interview and that's why it hasn't happened. There you go.
    95:11
    What else? So we also saw, I think, in the last 24 hours some slow Star Wars footage from our good friend of the show, Steve Bowden. Yes. So basically Star Wars crashing, really, is what happened. It's crashing very slowly so everything was kind of in slow motion. Yeah, it was the most interesting thing I've seen they came to.
    95:33
    And that is social media. It is. Okay, so shall we talk about slam the top 100 or slam the top 200 as we're calling it these days? Yep. We're not even calling it that, we're calling it the slam the top 100 to 200. So this was myself and Ryan versus Dennis from the Eclectic Famous podcast and he had Mata Hari and we had Haunted House. Yep. He won 57% to 43%. So tell us the truth, Mardy. Which one would you rather play?
    96:08
    Mata Hari or Haunted House? I would probably want Haunted House, but I would probably prefer Mata Hari just for maintenance.
    96:24
    Yeah. I haven't played either one of them, but Haunted House. They're both great games. It looks like the craziest, dumbest play film. It just looks like it's cool because it's different. Yeah, it's got a really, it's got a bit of a shit rule set on its house, to be honest. But, yeah, it's fun. It's fun. It's interesting. It's got three levels. That's what makes it interesting. Anyway, let's do this week. This will be my number.
    96:50
    Please generate a number from 100 to 200. Coming right up. 162. 162 Starship Troopers. Awesome.
    97:09
    Cool. That's for me, right? Yep. Just so you know, I am going to be talking about the extra flipper.
    97:16
    Okay, I'll be looking at the playfields. Yep, you better. Please generate a number from 100 to 200. Sure.
    97:28
    136. Black Knight. Oh yeah. Chamali. Yes, you have to go first, mate. I do. Okay. Honestly, one of my absolute favourite games. And people have been critical of the rules because it's fairly easy to get into multiball. But this game has two levels with ramps connecting the levels. It's got a two ball and it doesn't have a two ball, it's got a three ball multi ball.
    98:08
    Great sound, great art. This is Steve Ritchie at his early days finest. I love this. And Magna Save. You know what Magna Save is. It was just one of the best inventions to have with the balls. It's going to go down the out lane. But no, no, no. You've got an extra set of buttons. Click that. A magnet tries to grab the ball and then puts it down in the in lane. Oh, absolutely. Just freaking adore this game. That's all, Manny? That's it. Okay.
    98:37
    Starship Troopers from the, I think, 1997 smash hit movie, including iconic characters such as Johnny Rico.
    98:46
    This game was designed by legendary designers Joe Kamikau and Joe Belsa, and the software was by Neil Falkner and R&D. Artwork by Morgan.
    99:02
    It's a great game, okay? And I know what you're going to say, Marty. You're going to talk about that flipper. People love, you know, third and fourth flippers on games like Paragon. It's great. You can get this, this, this, this and that. People have been wanting, you know, that third flipper or fourth flipper on a newer game. And here it is, right? Beautiful little red flipper, just that little nub sitting right there next to the bottom right flipper. Amazing. It's actually a really fun game. It's just, it has really shit art, okay? Like, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible art. And, you know, little figurines scattered across there. It's like a figure game, right? You know? But, it, it, nah, fuck.
    99:47
    Okay, but, yes, you ready? Totally better than Steve Ritchie's masterpiece for Black Knight. It just really isn't, guys.
    99:55
    The artwork for Starship Troopers is actually its best feature. Because it's not just that it's got an extra flipper.
    100:05
    It's got an extra flipper, which is a small flipper and a separate flipper button for that flipper. Did you know that? Mm-hmm. No, it's shit. It is awful. It really doesn't go anywhere. It actually serves no purpose. Yes, they're trying to emulate the bugs in the movie. Oh, fucking, you know, emulate the action from the movie. That would have been a better thing because the rules are boring as crap. You hit this number of creature, hit that coloured one. Just terrible. Really, really uninspired machine. Compared to the Black Knight mining, there's really inspiring rules. Well, it's of its era. This came out when better games were coming out. So it had no excuse. It was just a lazy, lazy game. Shame on anyone involved in this game. We've interviewed like a couple more. Yeah, I love you guys.
    101:01
    Black Knight, what can I say? Yes, it was like, you know, a game with an upper player feeler when those games didn't exist. But it's obvious that it was one of the first, or the first, I think, because you can't see the part of the playfield that it's covering. It's not like some of these elegant design games like Whitewater where it looks like this 3D kind of terrain. It is half the playfield and then an upper playfield stuck on top of it, and you just get it up there. You get it up there and you try and keep it up there as long as you can. There's no way the ball is draining while it's up there. It is the reason why people don't like upper playfields because after this game was created, people went overboard and just went, okay, let's put an upper playfield in everything and they've never been able to get it right as we and Dennis discussed last week. Vote one for Slash of Troopers is vote one for the best designer of all time, Joe Kamikau.
    101:59
    He said Sarn Pinball was easy, Marty. Okay, drag and drop, pop bumpers onto the playfield, and it's done. And you've got Sartre Troopers. Sartre Troopers is awful.
    102:11
    Guys, Black Knight 2000 is the good game that you're thinking of. Black Knight is this. That's why they made two versions of it, because the first one was just... It's like Kiss to Aerosmith, okay? Aerosmith is the better game. You know, John Ball fixed it. Steve Ritchie fixed Black Knight 2000. But Black Knight is the one that he made all the mistakes on. Horrible game. I'm going to get like 10% of votes. Who am I? I'm just talking shit for nothing.
    102:38
    Alright, so please, it'll be up on Facebook in a couple of days. Vote for whichever one. Don't care. This Week in Pinball, what do we do together, Marnie? We have nothing. Nothing in common? No. Okay. So, because you had an event on and I couldn't come to it. Okay. I want to go first, Marty, because you've got a longer week, people. Okay. This week there was a big game on, a stern big game on eBay that I was seriously interested in getting because it looked really nice from the photos. I went and checked it out in person. The guy wouldn't sell it outside of eBay. I managed to get a lockdown bar for my Quicksilver, so that restoration is definitely happening now. Let me fix that up. But the game went for $3,500, which I'm not sure if a big game is worth that in Australia, but how often do you see him for sale money? Very, very, very rare. The funny thing is that somebody talked to me about it at the competition I was at this week, the Pinball tournament. It's like, oh, hey, have you seen that big game? I'm like, yeah, don't bid on it because I'm going to bid on it. He's like, no, I'm bidding on it. So he was the guy who ended up winning it, so we can go over there and play it if we would like to, Manny. Okay, awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I ran my competition, I didn't mention it last week, the progressive strikes or shit strikes as you call it. It was really good. I performed, I'm not sure if you saw the results, Manny, but I performed horribly.
    104:13
    Yeah, it was one of those weird things, I was like, yeah, Pimball, I'm into Pimball, I can play Pimball, I know how to play in Pimball tournaments now. And at no stage when I was playing Pinball was I playing with a purpose. Does that make sense?
    104:28
    Yeah, kind of. Yeah, and then I wasn't just like, okay, player 1's on this, so I need to go past the best strategy is this. That always goes out in my head. But at no point during my play was that happening for the first time ever. I zoned out. I was still playing Pinball, I wasn't playing horribly, but I came almost last because... No, I did see that result. But, you know, in your defence, and I will constantly defend you, you're also organising the tournament as well. And maybe there wasn't that much stuff that was going on with machines breaking down or anything, but there's still... No, there was. No, there's things that you've got to do. Sure. So there's just things that you've got to do that just take you out of that moment where you're constantly thinking about what you need to do.
    105:12
    Yeah. I'm not going to blame it on that because I've come first in tournaments that I've organised before. I think it was just more of just not being in that headspace. I had to remind myself that it's a Pinball tournament. But Michael McMinn won. It was really good. He was on four strikes. Daniel Luth was on one strike, and he beat me two times in a row to take it out. So that's why shit strikes is really cool strikes.
    105:36
    Whirlwinds. I've been working on Whirlwinds throughout the week. The GI doesn't work, and I was trying to figure out. And who do you think helped me to try and get it to work, Marty? Was it Bruce again? No, this time it wasn't Bruce. It was the New Zealand version of Bruce, the guy who has all of the System 11 Pimball industry.
    105:54
    Oh, Dave. Yeah. Oh, Dave. So he's been helping me a lot, and I just haven't had enough time to dedicate more than kind of half an hour here, half an hour there, but he's pretty much given me the whole guideline of how to find this issue. And, yeah, basically it has to be a GI short, but I've looked through everywhere, and I can't find the short anywhere. I've bought a whole bunch of fuses and they keep on blowing. The board has a couple of little tiny hacks on it at the back so I'm trying to figure that out. So a bit of a pain in the ass but I will eventually figure it out. Okay.
    106:31
    Arnie? Yes? You didn't mention Pinfest at all last week. We didn't really mention it at all. So here's how my week was. Like, you know, I did my regular stream on Wednesday night. So my news for the week really is that I was playing Wizard of Oz and the magnets stopped. So all the magnets on that machine, of which there are three that I know of, just stopped working. So I then rang up Mr. Pinball and he's like, oh well you've got to do this and this and this. I just went, oh fucking hell. As soon as I realised I had to lift up the play field I'm like, oh god, surely someone can come over and do this for me. So I look forward to you coming over soon, Ryan. Anyway, we didn't mention PINFEST probably because it wasn't necessarily on our radar and I wasn't going to go. And so PINFEST I've been to, I think probably about three years ago, this is the kind of mini expo that's in Newcastle, in New South Wales, so two hours north of Sydney. But I had to go back up to Gosford, which is only an hour away from Newcastle because that's where my brother lived. And so I thought, you know what, I might as well drive up and go to Pinfest. So I did. I got there on Saturday night and I'm really glad I did. For a number of reasons, Ryan.
    107:53
    Yes. Number one, the very first thing I did, I played Deadpool. Nice. Finally, one of us has played Deadpool. One of us has played Dead... How many games did you get on it? Probably about four. Okay, this is a four-game review.
    108:09
    Could you hear the Dimmel machine, Marty, set the scene? Could you hear anything? Not really. The pinface was really loud. Because you had, you know, there were some industry machines, but it was collector's machines, and there were some machines that were being sold as well. It was almost like the battle of the volume, who could put their machine up the loudest. So it was quite, you could hear it a bit, but really for me it was about how this thing shoots. I wasn't really too worried about rules because I just know that revisions are going to come.
    108:42
    But there was certainly enough for me to get, you know, the Little Deadpool multiball and start some battles and I got, you know, the special quest ones as well.
    108:53
    It shoots really well. So I really like how it shoots. It was set up by AMD and I think they've had it for a while. So we've talked about it before that some people kind of talk about that katana shot rattling around and not being able to make it. And then some people don't talk about it at all. They're like, you're crazy. It works absolutely fine. So I'm guessing this is a version that it worked absolutely fine. No, you are absolutely incorrect. It probably worked about 50% of the time. And we're talking like a really clean, absolute solid shot would just hit the kind of either the right side of the ramp and just not go up. So I just think that's probably just a bit of an adjustment that's needed. But it was very cool when it did get there. It's a great game. I kept thinking to myself that it was all going to be about the left side of the machine, but it's kind of not. There's a lot to shoot for. Well, presented really well. Yeah, I don't know. If I liked Deadpool, if I liked that kind of Marvel Universe or that kind of cartoon stuff, I'd be really keen on a game like this. As it is, I'm not that fast. Yeah, it kind of got me thinking about, I mean, the fact that the alley kind of isn't sold out yet and, I don't know, what's the motivation to make a game based on something new-ish like Deadpool versus, like, Munsters is going to sell probably better than Deadpool and it's, on paper, you would not say that it's more recognisable in the general public than Deadpool at the moment. But I watched it as a kid, so I'm going to buy it. I don't know what I think it is. This is just a theory. But if you think about, you know, we'll talk about Ion Maiden because Ion Maiden sold out in seconds. Obviously, you've got the band and the fans and all that kind of stuff. But I think the differences between the L.A. and the Pro were, okay, enough, significant.
    110:57
    I was talking to people at Pinfest about the Pro and L.A. And people were just saying, you know what, I'd be happy with the Pro. I think that the Pro Deadpool is all you need.
    111:11
    I mean, what's the difference on the Alley on Inaiden, the lift ramp and the sarcophagus a lot, really? Yeah, and the upgrades as well. Yeah, I guess the audio and all that kind of stuff which you now get on LEs. Put that little light, that circular light on the top right. I don't know. So, and look, I guess at Deadpool you get the disco ball and you get the ramp that goes up and down. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting one, but people were just looking at it saying, happy to get the pro.
    111:42
    I think maybe because people aren't in love with it and they don't have that connection with it, you know, like Munsters. I'll get the Munsters LE because they think it's going to sell out, right? Whereas if they don't think the Deadpool is going to sell out, then, I mean, the only reason why people get the pro is that usually, The money, they don't want to spend as much. And two, if they don't like the machine as much as a collector would like the machine.
    112:08
    Anyway. Anyway, it's a great machine. There you go. So what else happened there? So there was a couple of homebrew machines, I guess you would call them.
    112:21
    So a good friend of mine, Grunter, he brought up his battle pinny, he calls it, Which is like a head-to-head kind of like Joust.
    112:30
    And I've been following the development of this machine for so long. It was that slip out last year but wasn't slipping. It was just there for you to have a look at.
    112:42
    So as I was driving up, another good friend of the show, Lucas, said, do you want to play Battle of Pini? And I went, yep, I'm on my way.
    112:49
    I think three minutes before I got there it blew a fuse of some kind or a microscope. Which is my second. Yeah. And was out. So I never got to wait. But it looked great and it also got custom Pimball machine of the show award.
    113:03
    It's not a re-theme of anything. It's a full... Yeah. And he's not using P-Rock either, is he? Is he? No, I don't think he is. I think he's just started from scratch. Yeah, I know. So we'll link the thread on Aussie Arcade for a bit of pinning. But it's a labour of love and it looks great. So hopefully at Flipout I'll be able to get to play it. And up until that point, so the first day, it did play really well and everyone got to have a good go of it. But there's also another person, I don't know his full name, but Cressy or Cress, I think his name is. And he's the one that's done other homebrew games before. So he's done Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and he did a Tumbleweed machine. Okay. So he's now done a game on the movie Airplane. Okay. Do you know of that movie Airplane? Yeah. It's the Shirley one. Shirley. Don't call me Shirley. Shirley one. So very funny.
    114:03
    It's, there's something about it. It's very kind of cool. So. I watched a two minute video of Gary Stern playing it and it did, it did look pretty cool. Yeah. It looks better than something else that was there. Yeah. We're not going to talk about that. Or maybe we will. But I also got to play, so there was about 75 machines there.
    114:24
    You know, there was the three spooky machines were there. A lot of old machines, right? Like a lot of them are EMs. So, I hadn't played it for a while. I got to play Grand Prix, my favourite EM, and it just reminded me why I love that game. Because you shot the spinner, it went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. It does. And then you sort of get it, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, but then you've got to collect your bonus and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's not just spinner all day. It's spinner, max it, then cash it, then spinner. There you go.
    114:57
    I was just, I hadn't played it for such a long time and it just reminded me of why I like it. And yes, I did get to play Thunderbirds again.
    115:08
    How did it go, buddy? All I will tell you is that I tried to spell International Rescue. How far did you get? I actually got International Rez. Ah. Is that the wizard mode? Is that what you meant to do? No, I think it's one of those maybe eight objectives to get to that. Ah, okay.
    115:29
    What's with the center ramp, Marty? Because when I was watching the Deadpool, the Deadflip stream, and he was playing it, Deadflip, and Raymond Davison, they were saying that the center ramp is so weird because it looks like it just goes up and up and up, And then it drops the ball up into the top of the Pinball machine, the pop bumpers. But sometimes the ball gets right to the end and then rolls down the ramp, which people thought kind of didn't make sense. It looked like it was like a mountain, like it hits an apex and it rolls down.
    116:01
    But obviously it's not like an optical illusion or something because everyone thought that there was like magnets flipping the ball back up or something. Did you experience any of that? I did not experience anything remotely that interesting. Okay.
    116:14
    Anyway, okay. But I also got to meet Gary Stern. So there you go. Gazza. Good old Gazza. It was good to meet him. Was he lit, man? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Did you try and get into the gin instead of vodka?
    116:29
    No. No, he was very busy. A lot of people wanted to speak to him, so I just let him do his thing. Okay.
    116:37
    And that was Pinfest. It was great. And the machines, there was a really good variety of machines, and they were in great condition. I tell you what, there was only, because I've said to you before, besides EMs, of which I think there was only maybe two EMs that I'd never played before, but pretty much anything that's solid state onwards, I have pretty much played every game in history.
    116:59
    Yes. From solid states onwards. No, you'd be surprised. But there was one game there that I'd never played before. I'd never seen before and I'd never played before. Okay. And that was BMX.
    117:14
    Oh yeah, it's a pretty rare one. I know, and it's got two play, upper playfield. You know, how much you love those.
    117:21
    I keep on getting confused between BMX and Vector. Vector's also a BMXing theme, right? Or not? Oh, I think it's more like futuristic. This one's just proper old school BMX. And the first time I went to play it, a ball got stuck and I had to turn the machine off. And then, because Pinfest was so busy, there was just queues of people waiting to get on. And I just, I kept trying to come back at a time when there wasn't a queue of people on it, and that never happened. So I never got to play it. So, I mean, people always say this about Pinfest. Is there a queue for every single game?
    117:52
    Pretty much. You'd have one or two deep on just about every machine. So, okay, so there's a couple of hundred, yeah, so there's like what, there's like a ton of people or so in there. Yeah, so there would have been easy. Okay. How do they, yeah. Yeah. Wayne needs to promote for about to like the general community or something, right? Like, because there's always Pimball people there. This sounds like it's more just random people off the street. Yeah, this was. I mean, you had your fair share of Pimball people and, you know, I think it would be too arrogant for us to say that we know all the Pimball people. But, you know, you would say 50% of people that were there when it was packed, you would never have seen before. And they were just mums and dads and families. Okay. That's good. It was actually a really good event. Really enjoyed it. So, well done to the Newcastle Pinball Association for putting that on. That was great. So, well done, Marco.
    118:44
    Let's head to the mailbag, which we haven't done in a long time. No! And not because there hasn't been mails, because we've just been too lazy to read out the mail. It really hasn't been a lot of mail as well. Well, there's been a mail here from 1L Sheep that you haven't responded to. Oh, I thought you were going to respond to that. That was a threat so that you would actually respond to it. Oh, okay. I'll respond. Lyman, I'm going to respond to your message tomorrow.
    119:10
    He doesn't listen to the show. Yeah, I know he doesn't. But he emails, so he must listen to the show. Yeah, okay. Exactly.
    119:17
    So, go. Email. We've got one from Crystal Gardner who says, Ryan and Marnie, listening to the interview with Dennis right now, I'm so happy to hear Champion Pub is number three on his list. That makes me so happy, especially the boxing characters. Sorry, that game makes me so happy, especially blessing characters. I laugh out loud every time I play it. I know it isn't high on anyone's list but mine.
    119:40
    That is what is so great about Pinball. Yeah, don't let any games that we shoot on... No, this is a good one.
    119:49
    You know, Pinball is very personal and, you know, people like machines that I hate and vice versa. And I don't go up to someone and say, oh, you're a dick because you like a machine. I just say, I don't like the machine, I think it's rubbish. But that doesn't mean I want to make somebody feel bad about liking a particular machine. Unless it's Ghostbusters, right? You can make it all those people. There's a lot of people that really love Ghostbusters. I know, it's a joke. And are unaware of how painful it is in a competition because they don't play it in competition. So, you know, I can still see there's some merit to that.
    120:27
    Marnie, are you still looking for your fourth M1 machine? Yes. Would you want a Transformers Pro for $5,650? That doesn't seem too expensive.
    120:43
    Transformers? If you said Avengers, I would have gone for it. Same shit, right? Nah, I don't like the rule set on Transformers.
    120:55
    But you like the rule set on Avatar? Shut up. I'm just trying to learn about you, Med. Understood. Okay. All right. So we did get another email. So this was in relation to, you sort of said, you know, is there a machine that's got more than four flippers? That's come out recently. I know. And so Tony said, so it doesn't have to go far back, Jerser Jack Pins of the Caribbean has more than four flippers. Keep up the Google.com as always. Doesn't Wizard of Oz have more than four flippers? Flippers?
    121:26
    One, two, no, just four. Really? Name them. The two bottom flippers? Yep. The upper flipper on the spinny castle? Yep. And the one flipper to bash down the door in the castle? Ah, and the other flipper as well. And the other one that hits the witch. Wow, okay. So we just forgot about the JJP games. Yeah, we did. The ones behind. There you go. All right. Are we done? We're done for another week. Fantastic. Thanks, everybody, for listening. As usual, please go to our Facebook page, email us, go to our Patreon page. Hey, we can say that now. Yeah, Jeff Gillis ain't got shit on us. He can't say that.
    122:10
    You can Google Play Up Your Ass. It's Spotify, it's Spotify. It's true. All right, see you, everyone. See you.