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Episode 250 - Iconic

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 9m·analyzed·Jul 20, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Episode 250: Consistency, art licensing in pinball, and ranking classic games.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers celebrates their 250th episode with discussions on podcast consistency, personal updates from hosts, and two listener-submitted pinball topics: the evolution of licensed IP art on pinball machines (particularly the shift from clip art to hand-drawn styles), and a 'Marry/Love/Old Yeller' game ranking pinball titles across three rounds (Elvira games, monster-themed games, and basketball games).

Key Claims

  • Podcast consistency matters more than episodic frequency; shows with long gaps in releases tend to falter or lose audiences.

    medium confidence · Host argues that despite exceptions like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, consistency every other week is key to maintaining audience engagement, citing their own 250-episode run as evidence.

  • Licensed pinball art has evolved from clip art (1990s-2010s) to hand-drawn or filtered versions to avoid collector backlash.

    high confidence · Extensive discussion of Toy Story, Wonka, Iron Man using direct promo photos; hosts note shift to hand-drawn styles (Harry Potter, Bond, Deadpool) as response to backlash.

  • Licensing restrictions are the primary driver of playfield art choices, not laziness by manufacturers.

    medium confidence · Dennis theorizes that licensor gatekeeping (especially on film/movie IPs) forces pinball companies into conservative choices; cites examples like Star Trek focusing on space/icons over character-driven playfield art.

  • Modern pinball art avoids floating heads/promo shots because collectors experienced backlash fatigue from 1990s data east releases.

    medium confidence · Hosts discuss how audiences rejected photorealistic promo images being directly placed on playfields; companies now trace or filter artwork to create illusion of hand-drawing.

  • Jersey Jack's tiny translite real estate forces more character art onto playfields since backbox/sides have limited space.

    medium confidence · Hosts note JJP's small translite design (compared to Stern) means playfield becomes primary location for character art to convey theme immersion.

  • Scared Stiff is ranked #6 on IPDB's top ten solid state games despite being 'too easy' for location play.

    high confidence · Dennis references IPDB ranking and notes the contradiction between critical acclaim and gameplay accessibility concerns.

  • Godzilla is overproduced and ubiquitous on location (more copies than Jaws), making home ownership of Jaws more valuable.

    medium confidence · Dennis strategically keeps Jaws over Godzilla because Godzilla is 'the town bicycle' available everywhere; Jaws offers unique home collection value.

Notable Quotes

  • “Their shows have all faltered. Big periods of inactivity. And you can't. How do you keep an audience with such inconsistency?”

    Host (Eclectic Gamers) @ Opening segment — Articulates philosophy of podcast sustainability; defends their biweekly schedule against criticism from other podcasters.

  • “Dan, if you're listening, get it together. Just get it together.”

    Host (Dennis or Tony) @ Early segment — Friendly criticism of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History release frequency; establishes community expectation for content regularity.

  • “Wonka was really bad because almost every picture was literally taken off of it like a dvd case or or something like that... The exact same pose in everything.”

    Tony @ Art discussion section — Key example of clip art backlash; establishes Wonka as cautionary tale for licensed IP art.

  • “I think it was more that it was lazy and not so much that it was ugly... people just got really pissed at the idea of you taking stills or photos promo stuff and literally just resizing and dropping it where you wanted it to be.”

    Dennis @ Art discussion — Clarifies that perception of effort matters as much as aesthetics; identifies the shift from clip art to hand-drawn as a solution to community sentiment.

  • “We'll just re-hand draw them or run a filter that makes them look hand-drawn... basically it's like all right we're going to take the official still because we're basically it's photorealism still so it's the actor or actress so we're going to hand draw it.”

    Dennis @ Art evolution discussion — Suggests AI filters or hand-tracing may be industry solution to licensing constraints; implies audience accepts traced artwork if presented as 'drawn.'

  • “Godzilla's the town bicycle, baby. Yes, that's right. Everyone's had a ride.”

    Dennis @ Round 2 game discussion — Colorful market observation about Godzilla's ubiquity on location; justifies strategic home collection choices.

  • “There are absolutely no reason [to keep Godzilla at home]. And it's tough because there are a lot of Jaws out there, too, but not nearly as many as there are Godzillas.”

Entities

Eclectic Gamers PodcastorganizationDennispersonTonypersonRichard A.personChris D.personJoe C.personDan CarlinpersonZombie YetipersonKen Cromwellperson

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Collector backlash against clip art usage (1990s-2010s) drove manufacturers to hand-drawn/filtered aesthetic; community accepts traced artwork if presented as 'drawn effort.'

    high · Dennis: 'people just got really pissed at the idea of you taking stills or photos promo stuff and literally just resizing and dropping it... that's why you've now seen like what's happened with harry potter where it's like okay we're going to take the same poses like bond... and re-hand draw them.' Wonka/Toy Story cited as turning points.

  • ?

    community_signal: Listener engagement driving podcast content; Richard A. and Chris D. submissions directly shaped episode discussion topics.

    high · Dennis: 'our listeners have come to our rescue as they often have and we actually have two both of whom have fairly substantive items that they wanted us to go ahead and discuss.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Hosts suggest Jaws rules 'more interesting' and 'more varied' than Godzilla despite inferior toy design; implies rule design gaining importance in home collection valuation.

    medium · Tony: 'Jaws' rules go in a better direction than Godzilla's... rules behind what you're trying to do in Jaws feel more varied... Godzilla's layout is far more unique.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Scared Stiff praised as #6 IPDB game but criticized for being too easy/accommodating for 1990s location play; tension between critical ranking and practical operator concerns.

    medium · Dennis: 'I cannot believe they made a game that easy to be out on location. It's shockingly friendly. It's shockingly accommodating.' Yet ranks #6 on IPDB; contradiction noted but not fully resolved.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.208

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, July 20th. This is episode 250. Is that special? I mean, it's a round number that has like big major numbers in it. No, it's not. Some people play up the 50th. We do not.
0:34
And we've had a lot. We've had more 50th than many of them. That is true. It's been 84 years. Every other week. Consistency. I've had other podcasters push back on this saying, you know, the consistency thing isn't important. You know what? Their shows have all faltered. Maybe not failed, but they all falter. Big periods of inactivity. And you can't. How do you keep an audience with such inconsistency? I don't know. I mean, I say that, but at the same time, there's like one or two podcasts out there that put out like a show every other year, and I still listen to them the second they come out. I've got exceptions. I've got like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. I was thinking about Dan Carlin. But you know what? He should be putting them out more than he does. He should. Really, he should be able to at least pace every six months, and he doesn't. No. And that's silly. Dan, if you're listening, get it together.
1:29
Just get it together. Oh, speaking of getting it together, apparently I did have a correction from Joe C. about the last episode. During our discussion about collections, I had mentioned nostalgia, that I wasn't nostalgic regarding getting rid of a pinball machine. And he said I should have said sentimentality, that I wasn't being sentiment because it was involving an object. It was about sentimentality. So correction is no. He also said that you were completely wrong to try and argue that a collection didn't have to be a multiple of something. I surrendered on that. I know. I'm just letting you know that someone didn't even like that you tried. It's okay. Okay. That happens. So, Tony. I accepted the judgment of the masses. That's why you're on a podcast is you love their judgment. I am judged. So, Tony, what has been going on the last couple of weeks? Well, I've been busy. Okay.

Dennis @ Round 2 discussion — Reveals scarcity-based collection logic; acknowledges both games exist on location but emphasizes supply imbalance.

  • “I think Jaws' rules go in a better direction than Godzilla's... Godzilla's rules are still good.”

    Tony @ Round 2 discussion — Breaks down gameplay differences; suggests rules complexity may matter more than toy/layout appeal in modern collector preferences.

  • “Hoops... is a game that's never leaving your lineup.”

    Dennis @ Round 3 discussion — Affirms long-term commitment to a specific game; demonstrates how 'Marry' category reflects genuine collection strategy.

  • “It's held more back by its technology [Elvira and the Party Monsters]... especially when you think about the 90s when these things were on location, I cannot believe they made a game that easy [Scared Stiff].”

    Dennis @ Round 1 discussion — Critiques 1990s Elvira releases for technological limitations and location-unfriendliness; explains why Scared Stiff ranks high despite design criticisms.

    • Elvira and the Party Monsters
    game
    Scared Stiffgame
    Elvira House of Horrorsgame
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    King Konggame
    Hoopsgame
    NBA Fastbreakgame
    Shaq Attackgame
    Toy Storygame
    Wonkagame
    Deadpoolgame
    Pulp Fictiongame
    Harry Pottergame
    Internet Pinball Database (IPDB)organization
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany

    design_philosophy: Licensing IP holders control aesthetic approval; pinball companies evolve strategies within constraints (hand-drawn filters, playfield focus on inserts over characters) to navigate gatekeeping.

    high · Dennis: 'I think mostly it really comes down to licensure restriction... whether they're willing to push against that or find wiggle room or make a compelling case.' Extended discussion of Star Trek, Walking Dead playfield choices driven by licensor limits.

  • $

    market_signal: Godzilla overproduction makes home ownership strategically less valuable; scarcity-based collection logic favors Jaws despite inferior toy design.

    medium · Dennis: 'Godzilla's the town bicycle, baby... There's absolutely going to be a pinball location within relative driving distance... Godzilla is easy to find.' Explicitly chooses Jaws keep over Godzilla for collection diversity.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zombie Yeti's design process balances art creativity with functional playfield information (inserts, shots); represents modern designer learning curve.

    medium · Dennis: 'I think it was Zombie Yeti when he was first talking about... you're trying to do this art, but you also need to convey the shots... The inserts are not there to help your art. They're there to convey information.'

  • $

    market_signal: Elvira and the Party Monsters expensive secondary market pricing despite gameplay/theme limitations; suggests collector demand based on IP rarity rather than mechanical value.

    medium · Tony: 'When I found out how much they were because Elvira is so popular... it wasn't Scared Stiff bad, but it was bad.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack's small translite forces strategic playfield character art distribution; differs from Stern's traditional trans-light-focused design.

    medium · Dennis: 'jersey jack what translate it's a tiny so... it's just a little thingy like a postage stamp... so you have room for one headwig... part of it's artist driven [but] that's part of it.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Elvira and the Party Monsters 'held back by its technology' despite thematic appeal; suggests obsolescence limits collection viability.

    medium · Tony: 'Elvira and the Party Monsters I think is a really fun theme idea, and it is held more back by its technology.' Dennis noted it wasn't on his want list long.

    • 2:28
    Playing Brotato? I have not touched Brotato. I've actually cut a lot of my video game time way back.
    2:37
    I've been doing a lot of stuff around the house. I've been doing a lot of stuff with work, and I am accelerating my adjustments that I've been making since my attempt to use the Monjoro Ozympic type SLP1 whatever. My body rejected that stuff. and so I couldn't use it to help control my diabetes. So I've been doing major changes to my lifestyle, which includes lots of working out and meal changing and stuff. So I've been doing a lot of research. So most of my time has been spent doing stuff like that, working around the house on stuff and trying to form good habits that will last long term, unlike the last time when I got on a kick and lost a ton of weight and got healthy and it lasted like a year. And then I backslid. I'm trying to do it in a healthier way that it can be built into habits that will last. Will it work? I don't know. It's been since March. We'll find out. It's only been three months. Habits take like – I've heard some people say three to six months for a habit to kick in. But I hear other people say six months to a year for a habit to be like fully locked in. We'll see what happens. but I'm doing it much healthier than I did the last time when I was just like, well, I can live on 1,100 calories a day. And you know what? I lost a lot of weight that way, but it was definitely not sustainable.
    4:17
    So now, especially when the 1,100 calories is like, I'm going to eat this one whole tombstone pizza. That's the only thing I'm going to eat today. There we go. I do like tombstone pizzas. It's been a long time since I had one. They're really good. They're like my favorite frozen pizza. But I'm just trying to build better habits. And so I've been doing a lot of research and concentrating on that and doing a bunch of other stuff.
    4:42
    And then the middle of last week we had just Wednesday night, we had the worst storm this area has had since probably 2019.
    4:51
    At work, we got six and a half inches of rain in a couple of hours. Flooding all over this area was absolutely insane. We had all sorts of problems. We had power losses and equipment down. And I spent a solid two days at work, not like nonstop. I have a couch in my office, and I slept on it for like six hours. So it was just one of those things where it got to a point where it's like 11 o'clock at night. Everything's settled down. And quite frankly, I don't know that I trust myself to drive home right now. Here comes the couch. that makes sense wake up the next morning go back to work so but it's just been it's all been crazy hectic so yeah how about yourself yeah not much video gaming or pinballing i was i didn't record the pinball show last weekend uh zach my co-host was busy and then i had a trip uh on monday i flew to Anaheim and I got back. Technically I did land on Friday, but I didn't get home until Saturday morning. So, um, so that was, uh, but you know, there was no flooding there. So that was nice. Uh, so a big work conference out there. That's my only, um, that's my only interstate trip for work this year. Last year I had a couple, but this year I'm actually almost done with the conference season. I've got one more coming up, I think in September, but, uh, it's a local one, like it's down in Wichita, so it's not going to be a biggie.
    6:28
    So I did that. I did play some Vampire Survivor. I finished the Garlic Paradise Adventure yesterday. So in terms of I got all the things to unlock the evolved mode, but I've got other adventures that I need to jump to, so I'll probably start jumping to that. Speaking of jumping, I will go ahead and jump us into the pinball section. I did try and do some research yesterday on that, and unlike researching sustainable habits this research was really quick because there has not been any like i don't want you want me to tell you that the jaws 50th that we talked about last time is on the line okay it's on the line there you go nobody cares so but our listeners have come to our rescue as they often have and we actually have two both of whom have fairly substantive items that they wanted us to go ahead and discuss. And the first one is from Richard A. And so I will now read it as follows.
    7:28
    Hello, guys. It seems like it has been a slow couple of weeks pinball wise. Well, you aren't lying, Richard. It absolutely is. I thought you might want a discussion topic. How about the art of games that come from IP? Harry Potter really had some discussions about art. take a look back at some games and discuss the art how has it evolved or devolved my premise for this topic is that it seems like today more and more games use clip art for the art toy story to me is the perfect example of this oh tony's going to be agreeing with that one all those images were the same images used everywhere wonka was kind of like that wonka was bad that art above the flippers looks like the same art that was used on shower curtains book covers and every other product i'm not overly familiar with Harry Potter, but the images look sort of familiar. But they seem to be changed from photos to a drawn style to give it a different look. Some titles you could look at Star Trek, the recent movies, Star Trek 25th anniversary, Star Trek Next Generation, Batman Dark Knight, Batman with Keaton, Batman 66, Baywatch, Six Million Dollar Man, Pirates of the Caribbean, Shadow, Guardians of the Galaxy, Iron Man, Spider-Man, any of them, Austin Powers, Lethal Weapon. One thing to consider when looking at these, if clip art is used, where was it used? For example, was it only used in the back box and sides? Star Trek, the recent movies, has it on the back box and sides, but the play field does not feature the characters, thus not clip art. I think the Stern Pirates of the Caribbean is similar. Dennis, if this gets read, can you do your Western voice? Thanks. I hope this becomes a discussion regardless of if the letter is read. I really would like to hear our thoughts about art on various machines. I also bet you have a better list of games than the ones I came up with. Richard A. Well, Richard, thank you for the email. Thank you for the discussion topic. And also, thank you for requesting my Western voice. I actually have two voices, country and Western, and very rarely do I get requested to use the western one which I know ended up sounding very southern but we got both kinds of music here country and western I'm glad someone knew the reference it's a pretty famous reference and in our internal notes I include some of the Star Trek ones this is inspiration obviously we can load up anything we need to he was just giving some examples so all right our art the nature of art you know i we did some pauses while i was reading the lengthy letter because it was just reminding of like wonka was a case in point that was one he didn't name but toy story had the same thing that we had already seen on wonka i think on wonka was probably even more obvious i think so it was to you it was yeah wonka was really bad because almost every picture was literally taken off of it like a dvd case or or something like that it It was really obvious. And especially the big thing on Wonka, it was like they used the exact same clip picture of Wonka himself in like four different places. Same pose. The exact same pose in everything. Yeah. So it is a thing that has been big. I don't know that I necessarily want to say a problem or an issue, but it has been very common, especially with licensed pens. especially through the late 90s and up until just the last few years it's almost always been what any major licensed pen was was a whole bunch of clip art or very sanitized something the licensor would agree to that falls into their branding type of stuff without any real soul or anything special about it. Yeah. So for the query that Richard has, it's game by game. And the reason I believe it is – I can't even say it's really company by company. It's game by game. And the reason I think primarily – and part of it probably does fall on the pinball companies. But I think mostly it really comes down to licensure restriction. And maybe the company's part is whether they're willing to push against that or if they can find wiggle room or they can make a compelling case versus just being like, okay, well, this is what it is. I think they've started to figure out as time has gone by what they can do within those guardrails and what they cannot do. So one of the things that he mentioned, like the Star Trek, the one based off the first two Chris Pine movies. like okay so there you know you did like the montage clip art style on the trans light um sides of the cabinet like the pro for example and then the playfield doesn't have any of the like it's just like a generic sort of space thing that they did um part of that i think it was likely just the artist's decision like we needed to convey a lot of information we've got all these missions we're trying to get people to do that was a big focus to emphasize what you need to shoot at um you know you had the you had the trek emblems with the rgb lights to guide you on what you were going to do and so looking at the play field they want you to feel like you're in space and that was sufficient uh another one he did not mention but i will bring up that i feel and it's from the same era it was a year later but right up in that same vein was when stern did the walking dead there's no walking dead characters on the play field not not the main actors there's zombies right you know you're to be in that world because you'd be like oh look there's bicycle girl oh look there's the whale walker oh look here's this like the bar like the toy it's to put you in that world but they didn't feel like they needed to slather the characters all over the play field you have the characters on the trans light like that's what catches your eye and historically do we have characters all over the play field it that very much varies he named a few examples like lethal weapon lethal weapon three so back in the old day here bear in mind like that was when all the play fields were being screen printed so you would have generally there were fewer colors that you might have involved and all like i don't fully understand the nuances of it but like data east and the data east days they had their artists and they would draw things and they would not look like the same things that are on shower curtains and lunch boxes and all the rest of it But that is because I believe that then they could get away with, hey, look, this is Riggs, not Mel Gibson as Riggs. Like, they don't really look like the actor. You can tell who they're being, but because it's not that person, the rights issue wasn't a problem. Right. That's why I think they used to do it like that. So you like Nedry on Data East Jurassic Park with his stupid Nedry hand. Like, yeah, that's Nedry, but it's not the actor. Like, it's not. It's just not. Now, sometimes they walk the fine line. The Indiana Jones pin from Williams. There are a ton of people who insist that's Harrison Ford. Williams' stance has always been that is not Harrison Ford. It's Indiana Jones. That is a generic Indiana Jones. It is the best Harrison Ford-looking, non-Harrison Ford Indiana Jones I have ever seen in my entire life. But they have insisted on that. And we've seen how where instances where it had to get even more creative, like Back to the Future for Data East, where you've got Gary Stern is being Doc and Marty is a potato. Like they took steps to like they didn't always get the actors rights. And when they try and get the actors, maybe they just get the permission and do the back glass like Apollo 13. They couldn't get Tom Hanks, but they got the others. And then, you know, you have whatever's going on on the play field. um so there's i think what's happened over time is there has been um i want to say i feel like it comes down mostly to the artist's choice like do we want to have characters slathered all over the play field or not it seems like it is more prevalent now in the lcd era and maybe that's because when you have companies like juror excuse me jersey jack what translate it's a tiny so you've complained about this tony it's a tiny sliver of real estate it's just a little thingy like a postage stamp so when the thing's off if you want to feel the world the only other place to go is on the playfield because the other two places are i mean the sides are you know wedged into lines who really cares and their translate space is tiny so you have room for one headwig like it's just there's no space so i think that's part of it but i think part of it's artist driven um Um, Richard did point out the thing about the, the clip art use and stuff. People got really frustrated with it. I think because it felt, I, I don't think it's so much that it was lazy, uh, as it was, um, that, well, no, wait, wait. Yeah. I, yeah. Let me rephrase that. I think it was more that it was lazy and not so much that it was ugly. Now, again, stern early two thousands think Lord of the Rings era and such like the, the digital printing and the way that the art was applied to the play field was not pretty particularly attractive it's almost like a baby's first pointillism it's just really like it's really blotchy um and that that was just the technology that was used so um so there's that aspect of it but i think a lot of collectors just got frustrated with he mentioned iron man which is a good case in point where you got like black widow and the black widow post like it straight up the promo photo where you just you know like you green you got the green screen so they able to take her and clip art place Black Widow where they need to place her And that's how Wonka felt, I feel, even if it wasn't necessarily the clip art. if it was uh so so the uh that the issue with that is i think it just annoyed people that these artists weren't no matter how ugly say the data east art was on lethal weapon three at least someone drew it it was pretty ugly but at least someone drew it and it just it just for collectors and as priciest things got this my theory people just started to get really pissed at the idea of you taking stills or photos promo stuff and literally just resizing and dropping it where you wanted it to be and that's why you've now seen like what's happened with harry potter and plenty of other games um where it's like okay we're going to take the same poses like bond for example right and all right we'll just re-hand draw them or run a filter that makes them look hand-drawn i don't know how they they did it but i mean basically yeah yeah our ai but basically it's like all right we're going to take the official still because we're basically it's photorealism still so it's the actor or actress so we're going to hand draw it but they're going to be in those same poses because that's what and again that's where how picky is the licensor like bond was notoriously picky yeah i've always heard that really really difficult to work with and then And, of course, we see a lot more creativity when they do an IP that isn't tied – like Deadpool being comic Deadpool. A lot of – like Zombie Yeti was able to hand-draw – it's clearly Deadpool, and it's a better quality than what we saw in the 90s. But there isn't just one pose of Deadpool. He's doing stupid stuff like having little rubber ducky floaty rings and stuff on him and all that because – I love the art on Deadpool. Because they were, Marvel let them, because it wasn't Marvel Studios, Marvel let them be very, very creative. And some kind of walk a line in between. I mean, we saw with Chicago Gaming, Pulp Fiction, they had that more traditional hand-drawn, like this isn't John Travolta, but it's clearly...
    19:42
    John Revolta. Yeah. I was going to say, I'm sorry, I remember Vincent Vega, I think, was that his name? Yeah, Vincent Vega. Yeah, it's clearly Vincent Vega, but it's also clearly not John Travolta. So that's my kind of take on that sort of thing. I think most brands are avoiding – most company, pinball companies are avoiding the clip art thing just because there's been backlash to it. And they found out that we're relatively tolerant if it's quote-unquote hand-drawn, even if it's straight up the same promo positioning and everything else. because I think it just makes for an easy approval.
    20:20
    But the effort, I'm air quoting, the effort was put into it to hand draw it. So even though it's like, is this like someone took the promo thing and just traced it? Like some of it looks straight up. Like it's so photorealistic. It looks like they just trace. And I'm not saying that's good or bad. All I'm saying is that people lap it up. Like we as pinball people are like, that's the middle ground that worked. We'll take the lunchbox poses. we just want someone to have tried to draw.
    20:51
    And we want it drawn super-duper good. And it wouldn't surprise me that at least some of the companies, if that doesn't just translate to, we have a hand-draw filter. We just feed it through the filter. Maybe. But it's working. At large, that's what the public wants. They don't like it when things look too non-photorealistic. For whatever reason, maybe that's trauma from the 90s with the stuff he's listed. the Star Wars of Daddy East. Daddy East was a good case in point where their art was not particularly good. But on the play field. Yeah, definitely. I do like some of the more modern stuff, though, getting away from the just floating head. I'm so tired of when you do do something that's just floating heads. Yes. It's like, oh, good, there's a bunch of heads here. Yay. I didn't realize I bought their headshot promo. Right, right. No, I could see that. But again, I didn't like the art on the play field for John Wick. No. Where I felt like the comic panel approach, it just didn't feel like the movie. The movie isn't a comic.
    22:00
    It's sliced up. It's clearly more creatively interpreted than the usual, here we go, here are the promo images, all the position and stuff. But I was just like the way the whole package came together reminded me of like the worst of the 90s sort of stuff. He mentioned Baywatch. Like Baywatch was an example where, you know, again, it's super stylized.
    22:23
    There were vast sections, I think, without the characters. Baywatch's art package on the play field is not particularly great, quite frankly. I mean, that game totally is not particularly great. Well, I think it's a fun game. You get the little shark flipper. Don't you forget about shark flipper. I'll be honest. I'd forgotten about the shark flipper. Little shark flipper.
    22:47
    It's still not a great game. And there is a propensity, I think, to use the promo stuff still more for the back box, the trans light and the sides. It's the recognizable stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and I think because of that, there's still more of a desire to have it be like a movie poster, which again was the purpose of all of that originally. It was to catch your eye in an arcade. So people judge it, of course, but I think that's why we see it more there. Plus, the play fields still have to convey a lot of information. There's a lot of accommodation that needs to happen. And I think it was I think it was Zombie Yeti when he was first talking about how when he did his first production game, Ghostbusters, you know, and stuff he learned about, you know, you're trying to do this art, but you're also you need to convey the shots like you're still having information needs to be accommodated. And your art has to kind of work around where these inserts and such are going to go, because the inserts are not there to help your art. They're there to convey information to the player. And a lot of these games, there are a lot of inserts. So I think we've seen more variance and more bad art on the playfields themselves than the back box and the sides. But I will say even into the modern stuff, we do see more clip arty style in the back box and sides because of that.
    24:15
    But those are my thoughts on it. Yeah. All right. Um, so moving on to a second email, Chris D wrote into us, he wants us to play a game. Uh, and he's given us, uh, he's given us all the questions. I think you'll know this game. The listeners will know this game. I've heard other shows play this game in other hobbies. And I'm sure, uh, and actually, uh, there was someone that used to like have it, uh, keep it, bolt it, burn it. I think was how they did their version that might've, I think, was that Ken Cromwell's podcast? I don't remember which ones did it anymore. But so let me get the email. Chris. Chris writes in. Hi, guys. Got a game for you this week. There's a PG 13 version of this game. And then there's a PG version of the game. So the the censored version of the game is the Mary. That's my own personal beeping. Kill that pin or Mary. Love or old yeller that pin. I don't know that that's better. I don't know either. But that's what we're going with. So here are the rounds that he's got five rounds for us. And rather than just read down the email, I'll hit him afterwards because he just closes with thanks, guys. So, all right, Chris, thanks for the game. We're going to go ahead and play it. So here we go. The first round is the three Elvira games. So there's Elvira and the Party Monsters. Then there was Scared Stiff. And then there's Elvira House of Horrors.
    25:45
    That's the first round. He wants us to say, which pin would we marry or keep? Love, which is, all right, you want to have it for a little while, but then you want to get rid of it, sell it. And then Old Yeller, which means destroy. So I will let you go first on round one.
    26:07
    This one's a little tough. All right, then I will go first. All right. So I'm going to marry Elvira House of Horrors. I will love Elvira and the Party Monsters. And I will Old Yeller Scared Stiff.
    26:25
    Now, I actually like all these games. See, that's why it's hard. That's why the game. That's why he picked it, to be hard. I do think your Mary choice is correct. I think House of Horrors is the best. I mean, it's got so many modes. I like how it shoots. I like the toys. So I could see it as a keeper in the collection. But then I think I'm going to flip the other two, and I'm going to love Scared Stiff.
    26:54
    Okay. I think the majority of the listeners would probably agree with you. I personally think Scared Stiff is way too easy of a game. I have zero interest in having it in this house. Now, old yellering it is a bit extreme. However, that's the rules. That's the rules. It's my pin, Ma. I'll do it. But, I mean, I just – especially when you think about the 90s when these things were on location, I cannot believe they made a game that easy to be out on location. It's shockingly friendly. It's shockingly accommodating. Elvira and the Party Monsters I think is a really fun theme idea, and it is held more back by its technology. but I can't imagine Elvira and the Party Monsters would last long in my collection. It actually was when I was early in my pinball career. It was on my list of a game I won. Really? Yeah. And then I found out how much they were because Elvira is so popular. So I was like, I mean, it wasn't Scared Stiff bad, but it was bad. And I was like, okay, you know, barbecue bonus and all that and all the things. I mean, yeah, the immersion is better on Scared Stiff, so that's why I think your view will win out overall. But just out of curiosity, I went and looked, and Scared Stiff is the number six top ten rated solid state game on the Internet Pinball database. Yeah. Well, that hasn't been updated in like 20,000 years, so whatever. Valid. Though it's beloved, a lot of people really wanted to have a remake, like for CGC. It's on that list. Yeah. So, yeah. No, I'm sure most people agree with you for me, but these are my picks. All right. The second round that Chris has given us is the Elwynn Monster Bangers, Godzilla, Jaws, and King Kong.
    28:54
    So this one, I find this one harder. Here's my problem. Yeah, what's your problem? I've not played Kong. Nor have I. but that's why the game is the game so do you have anything to add? Mary is easy, it's Godzilla that's simple Godzilla all day long and on the others I'm going to have to hold Yeller King Kong because I just not played it so I don't know so Jaws is the one that will be loved for a short time and then left. Sometimes you just gotta love them and leave them. Yeah. Goodbye, stranger. It's been nice.
    29:42
    Gosh, you know what? I'm gonna flip Godzilla and Jaws. I'm gonna say Mary Jaws, love Godzilla, old yeller King Kong, old yeller and King Kong for the same reason, plus nobody cares about Kong. So, like, as a theme. Yeah, here's why. You'll understand. I'm not saying that Jaws is the better game. There are so many Godzillas. I will always be able to find it and love it again. Like, it'll be out on location. Godzilla's the town bicycle, baby. Yes, that's right. Everyone's had a ride. That's right. So, Godzilla, yeah, it's everywhere. It's so popular for good reason. That there's absolutely no reason. And it's tough because there are a lot of Jaws out there, too, but not nearly as many as there are Godzillas. And so for that reason, I think it makes more sense to keep Jaws into your home because there's basically – there's always going to be a pinball location within relative driving distance of just about anyone that's going to have a Godzilla. It's just – it's so easy to find.
    30:43
    So that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to flip it. You're going to flip it. I understand. I got to keep it. It's not that you don't love Zilla, but Zilla is easy to find.
    30:53
    It is. The fact that it's always – Look, we're just playing by the rules. If you want a little less callous view, I would say I actually think the rules on Jaws are more interesting than Godzilla. Godzilla – and maybe that's because I've played Godzilla a lot more. Godzilla, for me, Godzilla's layout and toys, I'm thinking premium versus premium, are better, more interesting. Jaws is not as nearly as interesting on the toy front. However, the theme immersion in some ways is significantly stronger on Jaws. And I think the rules behind what you're trying to do in Jaws feel more varied. It's not, oh, okay, I've activated bridge attack. Oh, okay, I've activated tank attack. Oh, okay, I've activated electric storm attack, or whatever we call the thing where we're making Godzilla get electrocuted. So there are some things about the rules on Jaws that I think – I think Jaws' rules go in a better direction than Godzilla's. The thing is Godzilla's rules are still good. So I can't –
    31:58
    And Godzilla's layout is far more unique, I would say. And the toys put it over the top. All right, round three.
    32:10
    Okay. NBA Fastball. This is a basketball theme. NBA fast break, hoops, and Shaq attack. I mean. I believe I've played all of these. I have played all of these. It's been quite a while since I've played either NBA or Shaq.
    32:29
    So, all right, I'll start on this one. Just go ahead and start. We already know who you're marrying. Yeah, marrying hoops. Because you already have. Yeah, I mean, I have it. You put a ring on it. I know you put a ring on it. It's there forever. You said it last episode that it's a game that's never leaving your lineup. Most likely not, yes. So you put a ring on it. I also think it's the best of these three games. I think this one is the best of these three games.
    32:58
    You know you want to love Shaq. I can't. Love Shaq. Baby, love Shaq. That's good. Oh, you've got to be so proud of yourself for that one. that's where it's at it felt a little tingly it spins as big as the whale what has happened to us um no i'll love nba fast break um it's it's a it's a interesting layout i mean this is a game i've heard some people like really try and build up nba fast break and let's not again you ain't marrying nba fast break let's be clear like this game was parted out to save medieval madnesses and attack for mars is for a reason it's not that good but it's got a pretty interesting layout and i'm not saying shack doesn't have a layout here's the problem with shack attack we were just talking about art with richard's email and i still just remember someone saying that they hated the shack attack art on the back box because the translate made his legs look like they were tootsie rolls and all i ever think of is tootsie rolls not when i see it and so I don't really like Tootsie Rolls, and so he's got to get old Yellard because of that byproduct. It's just like Street Fighter and the explosion behind him, bison between the flippers. But all I can ever think of is the – was it the Buffalo Pinball people when they would – they called it cheesy mashed potatoes. So he's standing in front of his cheesy mashed potatoes, getting ready to have a bite, and I just can't take it serious. Yeah. So old Yellard for Shack Attack. I agree with your pattern. That is so bad I mean Fast Break not good but Shag no I just can I don't want it in my house.
    34:50
    All right, round four. Total nuclear annihilation, Rick and Morty, and rocks. Now, yes, Tony's making a face, because this is the face I made. I believe Chris meant to say final resistance. because then it would be his Scott Denise collection.
    35:11
    Was it Final Resistance, the P3 game that he did? I think so. Rocks is the asteroid-like game that came out like when the P3 came out. Like, it's a super basic, basic game. So, and I don't believe Scott worked on it, but I may be wrong.
    35:31
    Let's see. Yeah, we're going to the online here, because I probably – Or is it – yeah, that's a minigame on P3. Yes, yeah, it's a minigame. I played it. I was just – one of these things is not like the others. So I obviously – Scott designed Total Nuclear Annihilation. It was his big claim to fame initially with Pinball. Spooky Pinball made that. I took it to a lot of shows when it was Total Annihilation. It became very, very popular. And then, yes, the Final Resistance is his P3 game. And then Rick and Morty was his follow-up game. And this is actually the order they would have come out in. So do we want to change Rocks to Final Resistance, or do we think Chris knows what he's doing and mint Rocks? I think it has to be Final Resistance. Okay. so sorry Chris if we are mistaken but we are overruling rocks and we're going to make this a Scott Denisey round and we're going to turn that into I don't know if he helped the rocks or not I didn't see it on his on his website so uh but I don't want to I don't want to spend a bunch of time trying to dig into it because since it's a mini game well I was just looking at IPDB and he's not listed anywhere yeah I I here's the thing rocks ain't getting anywhere because it's not enough of a full-fledged game to be in this right quite blunt well like I'd rather like do a round of all the mini games on the P3 for that to be more fair. But all right. So the Scots, like you've played all these. I have played all of these and I will say, oh, it's tough. Not necessarily tough the way some people might think, but I'm going to marry TNA. I am going to tenderly love Final Resistance. Mm-hmm. And then Rick and Morty has to go out behind the shit. Okay. Interesting.
    37:42
    I'm similar in one regard. We have a lot of these where we flip something. So I would marry Final Resistance. I almost did. I love TNA. See, that's where I'm at. Still old Yellerine, Rick and Morty. Yeah. That was my debate. Yes. And the thing that really locked me in on flipping it, I think, is the TNA soundtrack combined with the nostalgia of how much fun we had playing it from when we touched the original Whitewood. and then when you had it and on location and everything, I think it has a slightly stronger tie to it. Okay. And also don't necessarily want to lock a P3 into my household. Why did you hold Yeller, Rick, and Morty?
    38:40
    Because I don't – it didn't seem like anything special. It's a fine game, but it never really grabbed me as anything special. uh so for me the as you noted i had a tna and i let it go so the the problem and i wish i had more time on final resistance but what i'm going to say is i think a lot of people have referred to final resistance as tna 2.0 and so i feel like it i i i probably do prefer the soundtrack and kind of the world of tna over final resistance but i do think final resistance has a better rule set and i haven't been able to explore a lot of it but there are the items and stuff that you gather you know use the p3 buttons and all that but tna has one right way to play it and that's why i don't have it anymore and that's why i think it's a good pin to love but not necessarily a good pin to keep because i can download the soundtrack uh the layout is fun but it's i mean the right where there's one right way to play it and that is go into multi-ball and then destroy your reactors and that's all there is to it and final resistance has more going on in the rule in the rule realm than that uh and so or at least i think it does maybe there's one right way to play that one as well but it masks it much better tna is a very straightforward very 80s style game um and if you have the opportunity to own one or uh to love for a little while i would encourage it but um it didn't last in my collection for a reason and that and that is the reason rick and morty i do not i've not watched the show the theme does nothing for me and scott i mean no offense if you are listening but you know i have to be direct i don't think the layout is very good especially that that crossover shot with the upper flipper i don't it's not smooth like i mean you're you're competing against the world with the warp ramp and i'm not expecting everything to be a Steve Richie Warp rant, but the shots on Rick and Morty do not feel good. What works on Rick and Morty is the theme integration. But since I do not care about the theme integration, and I do care about gameplay, how funny the game is is irrelevant. It's got to be taken out back. It's just got to. It's the worst layout of the three, and it's not even close.
    41:03
    So that's why I did the way I did. Chris gave us a bonus round. so he calls this the out there theme so these are these are not actual uh these are not actual games that exist so he wants to know if they could exist so we're really judging it off of the theme concepts one would be battle tech one would be doom connected with a land and he notes think nba fast break but your glory high school days so someone's been listening to these episodes and one I think would be cool an actual roguelike not light like Binding of Isaac so alright we don't have any layout, soundtrack or anything to go off of these are just the themes yeah merry love old yeller I would say based off of theming marry Doom love Battletech old yeller binding I'm similar with the obvious flip is obvious I marry Battletech I spend plenty of quality time with Doom before I release the butterfly and then an actual roguelike like binding of Isaac can once again hey what's behind this shit is that a quarter I'll do it I'll do it Isaac yeah the used to it yeah here's the thing while there's I think there's space and I think Nick Baldrige is even we talked about it recently you know with his upcoming game and has done before, you know, stuff with procedural generation. There's potential for procedural generation in pinball. I am not personally in any way really interested in having these sort of roguelikes as a pinball experience, like the idea of that genre as a pinball. I don't really care one way or the other. Like, I'm not excited about any of it. Like, those games I play for, like, same with, like, playing Vampire Survivor or whatever. like i i like those style of video games but i have no real interest in seeing them as pinball they might work really well as pinball i'm just it's not like an idea that i sit there and go gosh i sure wish this was pinball doom is such a touchstone to me and while i haven't played the new you know medieval timesy doom yeah i haven't yet either though i did see the speed run on uh Summer Games Done Quick, of that.
    43:59
    I've played a lot of Doom games. I put a lot of time on Doom. There's a lot of nostalgia for Doom for me. And so that's why it would be, if I have to guess off a theme, I would marry it. And I end up with loving Battletech because I think there's, I mean, we've seen a homebrew mech game. And I think there's a lot of potential for a mech concept with pinball. I just can't commit to saying that I would actually keep it. Yeah. Well, you don't know. And you don't have my background with the wider universe and my contact with it and how it has entwined itself in my life since middle school. So Battletech was a cradle robber.
    44:46
    Thank you. All right. So thank you again, Chris, for the game. We appreciate it. Tony. We're ready for the video game segment. All right. Well, we're going to open the video game segment talking about TV and movies because there's been a lot of stuff announced recently.
    45:07
    Netflix did announce that they are putting out a second season of Cyberpunk Edgerunner because some people's mental health has gotten better, so it's time to make them sad again. But in an interview, the actual director behind the game in an interview said, well, we're from Poland, and everyone in Poland is sad, and my goal is to make everybody sad.
    45:33
    Okay. It's very Eastern European of him. If you've not seen Edgerunners, you do not understand. This show was beautiful, and the characters were interesting. And it is full-on like Grave of the Fireflies level depressing by the end. Okay. We finally got the first round of cast announcements for the live-action Legend of Zelda.
    46:04
    Who's Chris Pratt? Is he Zelda? He's Ganon. He hasn't been announced yet. They've only announced Link and Zelda. Zelda is going to be played by Bo Braggison who neither of these they're both newcomers but they're not like unknown newcomers they've both had several successes and been in several shows or movies Bo is best known for this TV series Renegade Nell which just came out last year I've not seen it but I've heard good things about it so it's not so unknown to me that I'm just like what I've heard people talk about it but I've never seen it. And then Link is going to be played by Benjamin Evan Ainsworth.
    46:51
    I've heard of nothing he's been in except where he voiced Pinocchio in that terrible, terrible live-action Pinocchio that Tom Hanks did. I didn't know that Tom Hanks had done a live-action Pinocchio.
    47:03
    He has to live-action all the things. Why didn't they get the original cartoon Link voice actor? Well, excuse me. Lose me, princess. Don't we want that? I mean, there are people who want that. That cartoon took some liberty. Nobody loved that. I watched them, though. That cartoon took a lot of liberty. It did.
    47:29
    In terms of the nature of the relationship between Link and Zelda is not the one I ever got in any of the games. I really... I'm not sold on live-action Legend of Zelda. them i'm not but we'll we'll see we'll see how it does and because well mario did so well the second mario is on the way uh the universal and nintendo uh have registered a copyright for donkey kong film no surprise no donkey kong in my mind kind of stole the mario movie he was it was He was a very solid character.
    48:14
    So I'm not overly surprised that it's coming. Netflix is supposedly finally, after having announced it five years ago, started production of the Assassin's Creed TV series. Okay. So I'm sure people will be super happy. I don't know. I have a feeling this is going to go Halo.
    48:43
    But I say that, but Netflix has done very good by all. Castlevania. Yes. Castlevania was great. Both of them. Both of the series. Edgerunners was great.
    48:56
    The League shows were great. Arcane. Both Arcanes were great. I really loved Arcane. considering it's from a MOBA game that I think is one of the most terrible things ever created. The series was brilliant, especially the first season.
    49:16
    And we got a new trailer for Mortal Kombat 2. I have not watched this yet. I know you sent me the link. Oh, my God. The trailer, Carl Urban is Johnny Cage. I have to admit, I don't know if Carl Urban has done a role that I do not think he has crushed. Because he is so memorable in every single thing he has done. He was great in Dread.
    49:49
    He was great with his little side thing in the Thor movies. Yes. I liked him as McCoy in Star Trek. You like him in The Boys. He's hilarious in The Boys. So, yeah, no.
    50:08
    I mean, you know, I'm not a huge Mortal Kombat person. Go back and see the version of Doom with the Rock. And you can decide. Oh, he was in that. Yes, he's the lead soldier in it. The one that the movie follows. I had forgotten that. With the sister. Yeah. Yep. Okay, so he is. I've re-watched that movie. I've not because Once was enough. So, I mean, that was some tough material.
    50:35
    But again, he wasn't particularly memorable, so I would say he did not necessarily crush that. Maybe no one could crush it. Yeah, probably. Anyway, there you go. He's mortal. That's what I'm saying. He's mortal. um kind of segwaying out of that uh like we talked about uh previously uh the sag after has done final approvals on their agreement so the sag after strike is officially officially over so they can start voicing again except for all of those voice actors who lost their jobs to non-union actors scabs it's not really scabs when when when the union is u.s based and they just hired voice actors from other countries.
    51:21
    I don't know if that counts as scabbing or not. I don't know. I'm not sure how you would consider that.
    51:29
    War Gaming, they make World of Tanks, World of Warships. They had a new live service game coming out. It was a mech shooter called Steel Hunters. Game just entered early access. Yeah, they've already shuttered it. They've already canceled it. They're closing the servers down. They're letting the servers run until October, but they're not touching it. They're done with it. They have not had over 4 concurrent players since the day it entered early access And the game it competing with Mecha Break constantly breaks 300 000 concurrent players and is enormous yeah and and war gaming is just like no we really like this game but it no the the metrics do not show this as being worth us putting any more time or money into we lost we lost yeah so that's good that they understand yeah instead of trying to force it and then everything. But they are doing a bunch of stuff for their five people that are probably still playing it at this point. They're even organizing a special tournament to end the thing. And they unlocked a bunch of stuff that hadn't been unlocked in early access yet, but it was already completed or near completed, maybe not balance tested. They're just like, ah, here's everything until we shut down in October. That's nice of them. So, Nintendo has been pushing back real hard on content thieves for several years now. And we've talked about it several times. They had the big trial with Bowser, which was always hilarious. Yes. But the FBI has announced that they've raided and closed down four major ROM sites that had Nintendo Switch games. And they were spread across the world. They worked with national police out of, like, the Netherlands and a few other countries to raid and shut down these server farms and shut down these sites. so they've had major several major I don't know do you want to call them bust I don't know it feels weird it's as good of a word as any that they've gone and shut down so also in a bit of fun the reception to the Dragon Quest 3 2D remake was so big and it went over so well that they are now going to redo are doing a full remake of dragon quest 7 which is the one that was on the ps1 okay well hopefully it goes smoother than the final fantasy 7 remake i don't know that it could go worse i mean maybe there's always slower in the world of square it is always slower it is square they could totally somehow trash it uh but we will see Can't wait to see all the blockchain in it Are they still running with that as an idea Or have they finally given up on blockchain You know for how much They've pushed it and pushed it and pushed it It's kind of just quietly vanished Yes strange Next thing I'm waiting for them to fire all their people So they can work more on AI Well they need to have their people design And train the AI first Then they'll fire everybody That's what King did in the round of Microsoft layoffs Because all of the layoffs from the Candy Crush group were the level designers who had spent the last several years designing AI tools to assist to make level designs faster and smoother. And they got good enough that they decided that, well, we don't need level designers anymore because the AIs do it all. Yes. Robotech is back now. In all of the layoffs, they got rid of all of the… They trained their own replacements. My story is all this time, right? It is. It really, really is. We don't know how, but the AI survived. The AI has returned.
    55:44
    Somehow, AI returned. That's not the plot of that last Star Wars movie. It is the plot of the last Star Wars movie. Somehow, Palpatine returned. That is like a going meme of worst writing ever.
    55:57
    I've seen the version where people are like, if Disney controls Lord of the Rings, somehow Sauron had made a second ring that would be how it would go there was a second ring we just didn't know about it's because it's a toe ring wait until season 4 of Rings of Power maybe Amazon will steal that idea somehow Sauron made second ring I don't know I don't think I watched the first season and I never felt the need to watch anymore the first season was a lot better than the second but it's following enough of the stuff that I knew from the Simulcrum, or more specifically because I'm not read the Simulcrum, from playing Shadow Mordor that I've been cool with it because I've seen Celebrimbor doing stuff and all that, so I've been fine with it. I felt the second season was a little slow with trying to move it a little. I'm like, come on, let's go, let's move it on. Yeah, it was the same thing with me with the Wheel of Time series. I abandoned it after season one. I was like, no, I'm good i've read the book multiple times i don't i don't need to i don't need to watch this series anymore um and the last little thing is just this is the one that i think is once more ai but this time in a possibly even more disturbing way roblox has talked about how they're trying to advance their safety and civility vision whatever that means uh and they've created several new features they're putting a system together that will allow players between the ages of 13 and 17 to freely add other players between the ages of 13 and 17 so they can be friends and interact, but without having the creepy 40-year-old guys who play Roblox trying to grow kids be able to talk to them. The way you figure this out is they now are going to have you put in video selfies, and they will use an AI to determine the age of you from your video selfie if you're below 13 or over 17, so you are put into a different category so you don't fall into the teenager thing. Okay.
    58:17
    So now Roblox is going to have selfie videos of all of their hundreds and hundreds of thousands of young players. Yay. that's fine that's all fine that's that's okay totally safe it's totally safe this is gonna work out great no that's and but if a user wants to be added or wants to add somebody over 18 as a friend they have to use a qr code or parental approval system so if you want to add you know I guess the hope is like a parent or an older sibling, there's a way to add them as your friends.
    58:58
    They've also decided that the parental controls that they have on for those kids playing under 13 will now be extended to 17. But from the age of 13 to 17, the teenager has the ability to consent to them being activated. and if the teenager doesn't consent to having the parental controls activated, they're not. Okay.
    59:28
    It's like, so what teenager is going to consent to the parental controls but let your parents see everything you did and said in the game and fully tracks everything and tells them all that? Yes. Who's going to consent to that? It's fascinating. That's like, we need their permission. The parents are like, what? This is like they modeled off of those parents that negotiate everything with their kids. Right. Instead of just being like, no, do it. Yeah. Do it. This feels to me like you're going to end up with, and the kids are like, I don't consent. And they're like, oh, you're so self-actualized because you're able to recognize. Self-actualized just like how this AI will soon be. Right. You're able to recognize that you have choices and to start standing on your own. You're so empowered. We're so happy for you. Then you're going to have the dad who's going to Al Bundy the kid into the door as they're walking. Al, let's go up to your room and we need to give you to get pong consent. Oh, no. Let's go ahead and give you consent. Then when you use the AI thing, it's like, is that a black eye? No. I fell down the stairs. Yeah. I fell down my Minecraft stairs. Don't judge me, Roblox. I played another game. I'm sorry.
    60:54
    It is... We've not really delved deep into the AI thing here. No, because I think we don't fully know yet how it's manifesting in terms of specifics on... Again, it's like the AI thing with Harry Potter. like okay like when it's you i can you point it out and i can see where it is and i've seen this in shows too like when i watched the what was it was a secret invasion with samuel jackson they did the whole intro and ai like the whole intro art right which it was like this is terrible and ugly and but they were like yeah we're experimenting with it just see what it would be like we thought it'd be cool and alien looking i was like it's not but the whole show sucks so that's fine that's Yeah. You don't like Samuel L. Jackson sitting down? Yeah. Apparently, they did a bunch of that. It seems to actually have been driven, but I thought maybe they just didn't pay him enough money. It sounds like they just had a ton of reshoots. I mean, it was just like they knew it was bad, and they just reshot a lot of stuff. Here's the thing. That's what they got from the reshoots? Yeah. You remember the Batgirl movie that they completely shot, and they finished in the can, and then they just threw it in the trash? Yeah. Maybe they should have done that if that's what they got after reshoots. Yeah, Marvel don't do that. Marvel can do no wrong.
    62:17
    But, yeah, no, it's – I don't know. Doing something – I'm not particularly well-versed in AI. Actually, at my work conference, there were – one of the people I know from Kansas, from my prior job in particular, he's one of the, like, AI experts in public health now. He travels around talking about it. he had four or five presentations at this conference on AI. I attended two of them. One of them was a general session for the entire attendee list. Yeah. And just going into, like, how can we use these tools? How can we use them ethically? Like, you know, we need to start. You're going to get left behind if you don't know how to use them, but there are risks, and we need to understand those risks because it's not just like this utopia where AI can just do everything and it's going to be okay. so be aware and know how to how can it save you time but you need to keep humans in control of the decision making that was key this stuff like with Roblox sounds like the humans are not in control of the decision making like I've seen people post online in little reddit videos where like in the contagious laughter subreddits where they put on filters that make them look like little kids to shoot videos so is AI going to know that Or is it going to fall for the 40-year-old who makes him look like a 14-year-old because he put a filter on? I don't know. They've got filters that will turn women into guys with beards. They got filters for all this stuff. And some of the filters they have that do stuff like that are really good. They look pretty. I mean, it looked like it would be good enough to fool an AI.
    63:52
    But I don't know. Yeah, it is definitely an interesting and ongoing problem. Much like you in my work, I know we had a person at one time who he'd never gotten comfortable with writing emails. So every time he wrote an email, he'd feed it through AI to punch it up because he wasn't comfortable with writing emails. And he did that for every single email he ever sent. And you could tell. Yeah. For the most part, you could tell. But I don't know that people who hadn't had a lot of contact with him prior to that could have told. Because we could tell because it's stuff like, it's like, he's never used this word in his entire life. I implore you to reconsider. Yeah. No. It's like, he doesn't speak like this. He's never spoken like this type things. And then I've also seen people who, when they were looking at something that they just could not figure out, they've literally fed it into the AI and said, please explain this like I'm five or whatever.
    65:07
    Or however they coded in to generate it in a way that they can better understand if it's just too deep for them. So I don't know. And I don't think anybody knows. I think the reality is probably going to be somewhere between the Terminator end of the world people's thoughts and the utopia people's thoughts. Yeah, it's going to be interesting on how well they evolve. But so far, the main thing about all of this stuff is someone, one of the other panelists on one of those AI groups had mentioned is basically at its core, though, what AI isn't as I as you think it's really just a really sophisticated fill in the blank tool. That's what it does. And it accesses whatever information has been fed to try and fill in the blanks. And so prompting matters a lot, but it's like, that's why it's, I guess, as they're currently designed, there's not like these concerns about like self-awareness and stuff. It's not really working on that model at all. It's just accessing a bunch of stuff in databases, trying to fill in the blanks based off of prompts and based off of feedback that it has received filling in similar prompts in the past. And so that's why – and depending on how it's built and stuff, that's why sometimes it lies or it tells you the wrong things because its sources were wrong and all that sort of stuff, which is why that human review is so important. It seems like in the tech industry – looping this back to your topic on video games – like they're kind of – it feels to me like they're trying to skip the human review part in a desperate attempt to save money on payroll. and so this is like well can we get like is there anyone who's going to overview these candy crush levels are we just like trusting that they're going to all work like when it spits it out maybe maybe a level's basic enough that we can trust that i mean there's plenty of game like i mean i haven't played hundreds of hours of binding of isaac but i've never had a floor that got procedurally generated that i couldn't leave right like it's always worked so you know Is it like that? I don't know. Yeah. I think we're going to see a lot of stuff in the coming years involving different – I think the whole AI thing is going to kind of break down into different classifications that have to do with just the level of knowledge and trustability of an AI. I don't know what they'll be considered or called or whatever. But I know we're not near the AI, the self-aware thinking type stuff. We're not near any of that. But I think we are getting closer and closer to brilliant systems that are extremely good at very narrow, specific things that I've been designed and trained for. So it'll be interesting to see.
    68:13
    Yep. Maybe. Or we all die in fire. Yes. skull crushed by weird foot thingy yes iconic well i think iconic is also this episode because it's done isn't it iconic yes don't you think or ironic no it's not a little too iconic that might be the name of this episode episode 250 iconic never be like that doesn't make sense So they normally like whatever they got this far, it'll make the basest of sense. It won't be inspiring. It will be there.
    68:53
    Iconic by Eclectic Gamers. So if you want to reach out to us, email us at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or you can go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. If you want to support the show for as little as a dollar a month, you can do so at patreon.com slash eclectic underscore gamers. We're available on Twitch and Instagram at eclectic underscore gamers. And we should be back in a couple of weeks. Maybe there will be some more. Maybe there will be some pinball news. I'm not really expecting that, but possibly. Possibly. But until then, my name is Dennis. I'm Tony. Goodbye. I got it.