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Ep 53: PInball Speed Dating with Chris Meyers

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 8m·analyzed·Feb 4, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Operator Chris Myers shares arcade evolution, location best practices, and pinball accessibility strategies.

Summary

Chris Myers, a Pittsburgh-based arcade/pinball operator with 18+ years of experience and 30 years of industry involvement, discusses the evolution of arcades from dark, cramped spaces to family-friendly venues, the importance of operator maintenance and location selection, and strategies for introducing younger generations to pinball machines. He emphasizes that modern arcades require a multi-generational appeal combining licensed titles, classic games, and strong operational fundamentals to survive post-COVID.

Key Claims

  • Chris Myers has been a coin-operated vendor since 2003 and has paid Pittsburgh city licenses for 18 years

    high confidence · Direct statement from Chris Myers: 'I've been a coin-operated vendor since 2003. I've paid city of Pittsburgh licenses for 18 years now.'

  • Modern pinball machines have significantly less wiring and complexity than Williams/Bally era games, making repairs more straightforward (find and replace logic vs. board-level troubleshooting)

    high confidence · Chris Myers on repair evolution: 'the logic repairs are more like find and replace... we did a lot of board level stuff on everything that Williams and Bally made... Now... we're getting to the point where we can repair some of the issues on the modern stuff we have today.'

  • LED arcade screens last 100,000+ hours vs. CRT monitors at ~6,000 hours, making modern arcade repair significantly simpler and more cost-effective

    high confidence · Chris Myers: 'LED screens... go for 100,000 hours... if you had to rebuild a monitor, it's going to cost you [same as LED board]... they just tend to last their expected times.'

  • Pinball machines historically are not strong earning games but create a unique physical, experiential value that other arcade games do not

    high confidence · Chris Myers: 'pinball machines aren't historically the best earning games, but they do create something that some of the other games do not create, and that's an experience. It's physical.'

  • Major manufacturers (Jersey Jack, Stern, American Pinball) actively support their products with good parts availability and service backing

    high confidence · Chris Myers: 'Jersey Jack, Stern Pinball... American Pinball, they all really support their products really well... they want their games to be represented well on location.'

  • Modern arcade appeal requires well-lit, open floor plans that allow multi-generational play rather than dark, cramped cabinet arrangements of the 1980s

    high confidence · Chris Myers: 'now in the world we live in... you need to have a well-lit location... an open floor plan. Not like... you were closed in by cabinets in the 80s.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I've been a coin-operated vendor since 2003. I've paid city of Pittsburgh licenses for 18 years now. This is my 18th year, guys... I've been around this industry probably, I would say, 80% of my life. So maybe around 30 years total.”

    Chris Myers @ early in interview — Establishes Chris's deep industry experience and credibility on operator/business perspectives

  • “The logic repairs are more like find and replace... now we're getting to the point where we can repair some of the issues on the modern stuff we have today.”

    Chris Myers @ repair discussion — Summarizes the shift from complex board-level repairs to more manageable software/logic troubleshooting

  • “Pinball machines aren't historically the best earning games, but they do create something that some of the other games do not create, and that's an experience. It's physical.”

    Chris Myers @ mid-interview — Key insight into operator perspective on pinball value proposition vs. profitability

  • “Now in the world we live in, it's like you need to have a well-lit location. You need to be able to see everything. You need an open floor plan. Not like – you were closed in by cabinets in the 80s.”

    Chris Myers @ arcade design discussion — Articulates the fundamental business model shift for modern arcades toward family/multi-generational venues

  • “This is how good of a relationship we end up having... he didn't even realize the flippers flipped... he's a 19 year old transfer student from Korea... he literally has five games at his house.”

    Chris Myers @ pinball accessibility story — Demonstrates the conversion potential when new players understand basic pinball mechanics

  • “We've had to actually give refunds to games that worked properly and took their money. They just didn't know how to start the game.”

    Chris Myers @ customer service discussion — Underscores the accessibility problem and operator burden from unfamiliar users

  • “Jersey Jack, Stern Pinball, American Pinball – they all really support their products really well... they want their games to be represented well on location.”

Entities

Chris MyerspersonStarport Arcade and PubcompanyHelicon BrewingcompanyPittsburghorganizationStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyAmerican Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Significant user onboarding gap identified: substantial portion of new/young arcade players (especially international) unfamiliar with basic pinball mechanics (flippers, launch, start buttons); results in abandoned play and refund requests

    high · Anecdote of Korean transfer student treating pinball as pachinko; Chris Brunetti refund incidents at Helicon Brewing; multiple new player confusion examples cited

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball machines are acknowledged as low-earners compared to other arcade games but provide indirect revenue through increased dwell time and beverage/food sales; requires location partner coordination

    high · Chris Myers: 'pinball machines aren't historically the best earning games... they don't make... [money] every piece of equipment has an earning opportunity'

  • ?

    business_signal: Post-COVID arcade operator revenue diversification: home rentals/leasing mentioned as strategy; some operators leasing ~90 games to residential customers for revenue smoothing during pandemic

    medium · Chris Myers: 'We leased out about 90 games, and I wouldn't say that that's my specific business model, but if you were just an operator, it's a great way to bring in some needed revenue'

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern Pinball conducts operator support meetings to discuss COVID recovery strategies and maintaining status quo; demonstrates manufacturer commitment to operator education and partnership

    high · Chris Myers: 'We had the last meeting we had with Stern. Uh, we have an operator support meeting that we talked to operators and, you know, um, try to discuss strategies on how to, uh, you know, maintain status quo, try, try to weather the storm basically'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.205

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, episode number 53. Tonight, we've got a very special guest on with us, but before we do that, my co-captain with me as always. Scott Larson. And Scott, can you tell us about our friends of the podcast? Sure, just going through. First and foremost, Flippin' Out Pinball. I'll contact Zach and Nicole if you have any questions about pinball merchandise, and they will be able to hook you up. I actually just got a heads up that my Led Zeppelin is ready to be shipped, so I'm excited to get that thing out. Also, Pinshades, if you want to play on location but you have a hard time with the glare, go ahead and check Pinshades out. If you want to look at some of the information around pinball, check out Pinball Supernova. They always have good things at their website. If you have that odd extra trans light that Steve Ritchie signed, but you just don't have the game anymore, go ahead and check out Lit Frames. It's a great way of hanging up your trans lights and decorating your arcade. If you also want to check out alternative art packages for classic Williams Valley games, check out Flyland Designs. I just saw that the art blades for Medieval Madness came out, and I'm looking at throwing those in my machine. So if you want to update that old Williams Valley game Go ahead and check those out Also if you want to check out my friend's blog The Pinball Loft He got a collector's edition of Guns N' Roses And you can read about what was going on down there It's Tim Purcell Also This Week in Pinball The go-to site for the top five things going on in pinball Check it out The Twippies are coming up And if I think I think voting may be closed, but if not, you can always go and check it out and see who the winners are going to be. Also, another shout out to Silver Ball Chronicles. Go ahead and check them out, too. They if you want a historical representation of what's going on in the pinball industry, Ron and Dennis are great, great assets for that. And now, who we have here tonight. Well, what we did is we actually got a referral from Tim Lee. And Tim Lee knows someone who's very involved in the arcade side of pinball and everything else. And he mentioned to us we should get a hold of him. And so right now, we have Chris Myers. And Chris Myers has been in the gaming industry for at least 14 plus years. and he's part of Starport Arcade and Pub. And we got him on and we're able to ask him a lot of things on the business side. We certainly wanted to get him on given everything going on the past year and the limitations we've had. So, Chris, welcome to the show. Hi, guys. How are you doing? Good. How are you doing? Hey, man. We're doing great. It's late. Like I was telling you before we started the show, I've been grinding, man. It's been a 15-hour day. So I was really looking forward to this the whole day, though. You kept me motivated, fellas. I had to get done. Heck yes. So I can get on the podcast with you guys. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on. Well, we appreciate you coming on. I know when Tim reached out to us that, I mean, you're obviously kind of a man kind of behind the scenes and knows his stuff. I mean, obviously, you've got the Dave Hicks approval. So you can give us all your thoughts and opinions on that stuff. But, like, we're excited. Like, I think the thing is, a lot of us have come into the hobby in the last five years. I know I've been in it for seven. Scott, how long have you been in it?

Many new arcade visitors (especially younger/international) do not understand basic pinball mechanics like flipper buttons and require on-site instruction

high confidence · Anecdote of 19-year-old Korean transfer student who treated pinball like pachinko, didn't know about flipper buttons, is now a collector with 5 games at home.

  • Customers sometimes request refunds at locations like Helicon Brewing for games that worked properly because they didn't know how to start them

    high confidence · Chris Myers: 'Chris Brunetti could actually tell you that... in Helicon Brewing, we've had to actually give refunds to games that worked properly and took their money. They just didn't know how to start the game.'

  • Keith Elwin's game designs are particularly effective at attracting and engaging newer/casual players through physical features and intuitive objectives

    medium confidence · Chris Myers: 'games that the keith elwyn's design specifically have helped us... people really like or recognize... like a dinosaur eating a ball... that's where i got to shoot it... the intuitiveness of the new games that have come out in the last three to three to five years have been... lights out'

  • Medieval Madness Royal represents a significant upgrade to the original game with improved lighting, displays, and screen, making it competitive with its legacy

    medium confidence · Chris Myers: 'when we put Medieval Madness Royal on... I've had like 10 Medieval Madnesses... when we unboxed that game... they managed to make Medieval Madness better.'

    • Chris Myers @ manufacturer support discussion — Positive assessment of major manufacturers' operator support and commitment

  • “We're not actually competing as much with even home consoles as we are their phones... How do you get kids away from their phones and onto the arcade machines?”

    Chris Myers & hosts @ competition discussion — Identifies smartphone as the primary competition for arcade engagement, not traditional gaming consoles

  • “If the machines can keep somebody there for one more beer or one more meal... multiply that weekly by 52 weeks... you sold a thousand more beers this year because you have machines sitting there.”

    Chris Myers @ location economics — Articulates the indirect revenue model: machines increase dwell time and beverage/food sales

  • “If you really, truly want to promote an atmosphere... there has to be some cohesion between you and the location owner and your technicians.”

    Chris Myers @ operational philosophy — Emphasizes the business relationship model: operator + location owner + tech team must align

    • Tim Lee
    person
    Keith Elwinperson
    Chris Brunettiperson
    X-Men (pinball machine)game
    Medieval Madness Royalgame
    Jurassic Park (pinball machine)game
    Robotrongame
    Raw Thrillscompany
    Cruisin' Blastgame
    IAAPA Trade Showevent
    AMOA Trade Showsevent
    Namcocompany
    Scott Larsonperson
    LoserKid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Dave Hicksperson
    Tim Purcellperson
    PPP loansproduct
    Korean transfer studentperson

    community_signal: Pittsburgh is a significant arcade/pinball operator hub with active location network (Helicon Brewing, Starport Arcade); Chris Myers operates multiple locations suggesting robust local market

    medium · Chris Myers mentions 18 years of Pittsburgh city licensing, multiple locations referenced, Helicon Brewing as known successful operator location

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin's pinball designs emphasize intuitive, physical features (dinosaur mechanics, visual callouts) that guide casual/new players toward objectives without extensive instruction

    high · Chris Myers: 'the intuitiveness of the new games that have come out in the last three to three to five years have been... lights out... everything that's been offered from jersey jack and stern have just been really... engaging the customer'

  • $

    market_signal: Smartphone competition now primary challenge for arcade engagement, surpassing traditional home console competition; operators must create experiential value smartphones cannot replicate

    high · Chris Myers: 'We're not actually competing as much with even home consoles as we are their phones... that's my take on it'

  • $

    market_signal: Licensed IP (Marvel, DC, Pac-Man, Mario Kart) is now primary driver of younger generation arcade appeal; unlicensed/classic games require active operator promotion to engage new players

    high · Chris Myers: 'the pinball offerings are mostly licensed themes... this younger generation... they are appealing to licenses more than ever... you can get people into the location by having a Avengers pinball machine'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Keith Elwin's game design approach (visible mechanics, intuitive objectives) is being adopted across industry as best practice for casual player engagement

    medium · Chris Myers repeatedly cites Elwin designs as exemplary for new player appeal; Medieval Madness Royal and Jurassic Park specifically praised

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's Medieval Madness Royal upgrade successfully improved classic game with modern displays, lighting, and screen features without losing original appeal

    medium · Chris Myers: 'they managed to make Medieval Madness better. I don't, I never would have thought that they would have been able'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Operator perspective emphasizes that Stern, Jersey Jack, and American Pinball are actively supporting operators with service, parts, and product quality; positive manufacturer-operator relationship recovery post-COVID

    high · Chris Myers: 'Jersey Jack, Stern Pinball, American Pinball, they all really support their products really well... they want their games to be represented well on location'

  • ?

    technology_signal: LED arcade screens (100,000+ hour lifespan) have replaced CRT monitors (6,000 hour lifespan), fundamentally simplifying arcade maintenance and service costs

    high · Chris Myers compares monitor rebuild complexity and costs vs. modern LED replacements; notes LED screens eliminate need for format-specific rebuild expertise

    • 3:42
    Probably around that, yeah, seven, eight years. Okay. So, you know, we've seen a very different side of the hobby than, say, someone that went through the 90s and the 2000s. And it sounds like you got to be a part of that, and we would love to hear your opinions and stuff. And kind of, if you give us kind of a background of how long you've been in the hobby and whatnot. Well, so I don't want to call it the hobby. I want to call it the industry. I've been a coin-operated vendor since 2003. I've paid city of Pittsburgh licenses for 18 years now. This is my 18th year, guys. So I've been doing this independently for 18 years. I was adopted by a vendor and I've been around this industry probably, I would say, 80% of my life. So maybe around 30 years total just involved in it. I'm 38 years old. I do remember going to Expo around the age of eight, nine years old. So I've seen the evolution of many things, whether it's arcade or pinball or just coin-op in general. The things we were fixing when I was a kid versus what we're fixing now, it's light years different. I mean, it's evolved into something that I never thought maybe as a kid that it would have changed into. So I've got to ask, though, has it become easier to fix over time or is it just kind of a whole different beast with the way technology has become? If you're talking about specifically pinball, I think like the logic repairs are more like find and replace, you know. But like, you know, we did a lot of board level stuff on everything that Williams and Bally made all the way up until like, you know, they closed. A lot of their boards were through hole and made to have repairs done. And now, I mean, you know, slowly but surely, we're getting to the point where we can repair some of the issues on the modern stuff we have today. But I think that the biggest change was, like, you know, there's a lot less wiring. There's a lot less, you know, things that could go wrong on these games. You know, people talk about the reliability of Williams games. I mean, everyone had their problems back then, but there was just so much to trace out if you had an issue on pinball machines. And then on arcades, it's like night and day. once we got rid of monitors, I mean, that was the biggest thing, you know, monitors had whatever it is like a 6,000 hour shelf life and then they needed to be rebuilt. So rebuilding a monitor, you know, there's, there's different versions of different monitors. So it's not like you, if you can rebuild a K 7,000, that doesn't mean you can rebuild a 6,100. You know what I mean? You have to, there's a lot to learn even on that side, or now it's like, okay, you know, you have a light tube, you have to replace an LED screen. It's not. And, and, and I mean the, the, They go for 100,000 hours. They're rated at such a high amount. So I would say the repairs on the arcade side are much simpler. And I would say, or like it's pretty clear cut. Like there's not, you know, your IO board's bad. Replace it. Okay, it's 150 bucks. Well, if you had to replace or if you had to rebuild a monitor, it's going to cost you that. So, you know, it's kind of like, and then, you know, the games that we have out there now, they just tend to last their expected times. You know, we have service intervals on pinball machines, but ultimately, you know, if we stick to those, we don't really have many games that are down. And, you know, the major players really support us. I mean, Jersey Jack, Stern Pinball, you know, the American Pinball, they all really support their products really well. We don't have like an issue with getting parts from them or, you know, they want their games to be represented well on location. So that's a feather in their cap. But it's a reality. I mean, you know, they really do try to provide us with a solid backing of product.
    7:29
    Now, we talked a little bit before. When I grew up, actually, I knew an operator, and I thought it was the coolest thing in the world because he had an Asteroids actually in his garage. And I thought that was the coolest thing to actually have an arcade. I grew up, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s. That was the thing. You got up and you said, bye, mom and dad, and you disappeared and went to the mall or figured out how to get to an arcade. And really, arcades have changed since at least when I grew up. And a lot of the arcades have contracted or changed or disappeared, and a lot of them have turned into Ticket Redemption centers. And so you've seen this throughout the years. But what is your take on, I guess, the history of arcades and where they're going to be in the future? Like, are we still going to see arcades in 10, 20 years? Well, I think we will. I think that, you know, a big credit to Raw Thrills and kind of bringing like a classic spin on some of our, yeah, classic spin on modern games. So like, you know, like or some even things that Namco's brought out, like with the Pac-Battle Royale or with, you know, Eunice bringing out the remade Pong version. So there's like some – people our age still see the classic theme, the classic gameplay, but it's in like a new modern style finish. The cabinets aren't woodgrain sides that are just like – that don't appeal to anything. It's really bright and flashy. So like my kids are 7 and 5. They love these games. Like I mean they look forward to us getting them. I take them to the IAAPA trade show or the AMOA trade shows and let them play the games, get to see this stuff. But, I mean, their reaction, I mean, Cruisin' Blast by Rothwells was another huge success on a classic 90s game. I mean, everybody remembers playing Cruisin' World or Cruisin' USA. And they were able to spin that into a newer style cabinet with a modern look. And the gameplay was great and people loved it. It was a success at the Coinbox, and it was a success at just bringing in that appeal from the parents of the kids that play now. We're like, I remember that. 20 years ago, that was awesome. And then now, fast forward to current, it's still a great earning game. So we have some – like Eugene worked for Williams in the 80s. He programmed – I mean, I'm sure people know Robotron. And that's what he's famous for. I mean, he's – and now he owns a company that kind of is like transitioning into like a modern – what we have now. So I think you're in good hands when it comes to that. I do think too, guys. I mean, I do everything. So we do Ticket Redemption. And there's parts of that that are – that's the lucrative part of the business. It's not – just we love – I love pinball. I'm an enthusiast just like you. I mean, I've collected every pinball game I could get my hands on. So it's like, you know, I get it. But at the same time, there's other things that need to help spin the wheels to keep these arcades alive. And I think we're in good hands. Like, you know, Namco has a lot of good IP that's coming out, you know, Mario Kart and the Pac Royale and just the licenses they're getting between DC and Marvel and different things. Like, you know, there's a lot of appeal to that license to the younger generation. And then me as a comic book reader, I kind of like seeing those characters in some of these games myself because it's like, you know, it appeals to even like we said, like, you know, someone who's in their late 30s or 40s or even 50s. I mean, so I'm hoping that that's kind of like what keeps the ice broken for us to just segue into, you know, when my kids have this business, because, you know, I have a seven-year-old daughter that's absolutely interested in this business, like every aspect of it. She asks me all kinds of questions. I'm like, where did you hear this? You know, but really it's interesting. And I think we are in good hands. The retro arcade that you remember in the 80s, that may never be a full thing again, but you'll have sprinkled classics in there. People that operate games like me, we like to put – and I'm not the only one. I know a lot of guys that do it. You know, it's part of, you know, the past and it shows some reflection of where we started and where we've come to. So I think that's a, you know, what kind of appeals to all ages then, you know, like Starport had, you know, everything from, like you said, a vector monitor Tempest all the way to the newest Raw Thrills offering or whatever Jersey Jack came out with their Chicago Gaming or, you know, we bought everything for that location. and people played everything. The people that were older, like our age, they loved playing Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, Tempest, you know, Robotron, those games. And then there's another generation of kids that are in college that went to, that loved the fighting game cabinets. You know, they wanted to play Street Fighter III Strike and Marvel vs. Capcom 2. And, you know, I have all those messages from those people that were like, oh, we love that. We love that about it. We wanted to play Mortal Kombat 2 on the real cabinet, you know, not emulation, the real thing. So, I mean, I really think that there's a broad range of people that come to these kinds of sites, but I think, you know, this younger generation, and I'm talking about kids that are, you know, in grade school or early high school kids, they are appealing to licenses more than ever, you know? So it's, I think, and you can see like the pinball offerings are mostly licensed themes. So I think that they know their market and we can get people into the location by having a Avengers pinball machine. And then they may branch out and play games that are classic, that are, you know, unlicensed or, you know, what have you. Right. But you actually got right into what I wanted to talk about. You hit a few things. And so I'm going to spit fire a few questions, but we'll take them in any order you want. One, you talked about this. And one thing we talked about before is that When I was a kid, my parents had no idea where I was. And in the arcade, the demographic was basically eight years to 18. It was basically a 10-year demographic. But now you have a lot of different people in the arcades. And that is how – I guess you have to change the way arcades are done. This is the first question. I'll let you take with it. You have to change how traditionally they were. It no longer works if you're just catering to a 10-year demographic. It seems like you have to have a place that families can go. And if they have an event, they can go and little kids can do this. Middle-aged kids can do this. Older kids and even my age kids can go and do what they want, but they're still in one location because they're getting exposed to all that. Yeah, I mean it's really about running a good location. You know, we have sites that you guys know about that are just, they really, truly cater to all ages. They are, you know, one of the things that we can touch on is, you know, I remember going to these arcades as a kid, like you're talking about. And they were kind of like low light, not, you know, like dark places that the games lit up, created the ambiance and things like that. But now in the world we live in, it's like you need to have a well-lit location. You need to be able to see everything. You need an open floor plan. Not like – you were closed in by cabinets in the 80s. Literally, you were pushed in together by wood. Okay, now it's like it's open. You go to Helicon Brewing, you see it's open. There's place, you can, from sitting at the bar, you can watch your kids playing pinball machines. It's perfect. You know, but that's the biggest difference in the 80s. I mean, it wasn't a wide open floor plan. They crammed as many cabinets as they could into these locations. So really the appeal is, you know, mom and dad can go get a drink. If mom and dad want to play some pinball, the kids will play some pinball. But you've got to have things like we have pong there. We have Czechs hockey there. We have darts for people that like to play darts. We try to cater that bigger audience. And really, there's something for everybody. So you can have a young kid in grade school, and you could have a high school age kid, and you could have your college age or your professional that comes in. And I mean, we see all walks of life walk into these locations now. And that makes me happy because like you're saying previously, you know, even through the 90s, I mean, that really wasn't the case. When we started putting in redemption centers in these locations, when bowling centers started to migrate to like ticket redemption, then it became more prevalent or more of a family activity. But for the longest time, guys, mom and dad were bowling at the bowling center and they just threw a kid a five and said, get out of my hair, go play the games. You know what I mean? Like, leave me alone. Now the entertainment is their phone. We're not actually competing as much with even home consoles as we are their phones. You know, I mean, just again, that's my take on it.
    17:01
    How do you get kids away from their phones and onto the arcade machines then Yeah it about experience I mean it about having them experience the games One of the things we kind of touched on too was pinball machines aren't historically the best earning games, but they do create something that some of the other games do not create, and that's an experience. It's physical. It's not a – you're not moving something on the screen like you are on your phone or your computer or your home console. You're actually watching a ball roll around. And I think it's just you have to get them to experience it. So like we do things to do that. Like we do free play nights at bars. You know, part of my part of my sales pitch as an operator is, hey, we're going to come in here once a week or once a month or, you know, for six straight weeks on Wednesday. And we're going to put the games on free play. Give me an opportunity. Now, this is all pre-COVID, but give me an opportunity to meet up with some of the customers you have and show them what the games have to offer. Because really, if you get a 50-year-old person, they grew up, their heyday was the mechanical error. It was just objective scoring. It wasn't like there's modes and there's objectives in each mode. So once you start explaining that to them, it's interesting to see someone's face light up and see what the interaction can do to a person who hadn't had that interaction before. I'll give you a great example of that. When I first opened Starport five years ago, we had a kid come in there, and we had the games on free play. We weren't even open yet. And the kid comes up and goes, wow, these machines look really cool. And I think, Scott, you said you had an X-Men. And he was looking at the Wolverine. We had the X-Men LE there. And he was like, oh, man, that's cool. It's like a sculpted thing. And I was like, yeah, you hit it. So I'm like, here, have a game. So I put a game on the machine, and I hit the start button for the kid. Now, he was an Asian kid, transfer student, really nice guy, still texts me to this day. This is how good of a relationship we end up having. But he looks at the machine, and he doesn't know what to do. Like the ball's in the shooter lane, and the kids just look at it. And then he thought of it as pachinko. So he smacked the shooter rod, and the ball went up, bounced around for a little bit, came down, drained. Puts the ball back in the shooter lane, it auto-plunges, and drains again. He didn't even realize the flippers flipped. like it's not I I'm not kidding he's a he's a 19 year old transfer student from Korea so then um I said hey man you didn't flip the game he's like what do you mean flip it so he like shook it like he meant he liked to show me like you mean like shit I'm like no no so I played a game of pinball for him and this dude is now I mean he's like he's gone he's gonna be 24 years old in March and he literally has five games at his house. Very successful. He got into his career right after college. Was very successful quickly. And the dude has five games. Like, I mean, this went from somebody that didn't even know that a pinball machine had flipper buttons.
    20:15
    So there is something, and Stern does a lot to try to get people to understand that. Like if you look at Stern's track screens on their newest games, it shows, like push this button to start the game, and kind of like shows people flipping the game and stuff like that. And us as enthusiasts are like, why the heck would they do that? But like there's the example. There is some people that have to understand what they're getting into. So that's the goal with the retro arcades and the modern. Like us as retro arcade game players, we know how to play the games already. So just keep in mind that some of the younger generation that grew up in this iPad era don't know that. And there you go. But that guy now loves pinball. He'll call me to talk about what's coming out for pinball. I'm like, this is amazing because you didn't even know how to actually flip a pinball machine five years ago. So, you know.
    21:13
    I've seen that. Even people coming over to my house, I mean, I have 11 machines in my basement where I have to go up and say, okay, see that big flashing thing that says start? Push that. and then you either have to hit the launch button or the shooter rod. And it's, yeah, it's so crazy because it seems so intuitive. But, yeah, it's completely foreign if you've never seen someone play it. It's true. I mean, no doubt.
    21:40
    It's a reality. I mean, I know people that are on the enthusiast websites and people that are, you know, in the know in the community don't see that. But from an operator's perspective, I mean, we see it all the time. I see people put money in pinball machines and don't realize how to start the game on an older game. Like a mechanical game that doesn't start and that doesn't have a flashing start button like the newer modern games do. They think that they go to get a refund. Chris Brunetti could actually tell you that. That like in Helicon Brewing, we've had to actually give refunds to games that worked properly and took their money. They just didn't know how to start the game. So, I mean, it's a reality as far as coin ops is concerned.
    22:23
    So do you have a suggestion on how we can introduce this younger generation to arcade machines and maybe specifically pinball? Because there seems to be arcade itself seems to be kind of straightforward, whereas pinball, I know it's two buttons and a start button and now a lockdown button. But obviously you've seen some hurdles with this. Do you have some suggestions? Yeah, I mean, you know, the first thing, first and foremost, I mean, I try to do my part and anybody that's listening to this, it's an operator. I mean, you know, I don't know everything, but, um, what I will say is just get involved with your locations, you know, and then have your locations have a vested interest in what you're doing. You know, a lot of the people that we work with are, are great. Um, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, they really bring the customer to the games or, you know, um, we do free play events at a lot of our locations. Like I said, just trying to get people to recognize, um, you know, what the hurdles are like, you know, what the goals are for the game and, and what your, what, you know, your objectives overall and how that builds up through a three ball game. And, you know, I mean, once, once people get to like, understand how to play the games, you know, then they either branch out to play other games or sometimes we see the same, the same people will play the same Jurassic park game a hundred times. they don't they're they're not that that adventurous but like you know it's really just trying to get someone you know it's almost like feeding the game like and saying hey give it a try see if you like it and and and that's where like i think some of the games that the keith elwyn's design specifically have helped us like you know have some physical features of the game that people really like or recognize you know like a dinosaur eating a ball or you know how the ramps lit up and the dinosaur flashes and you can kind of know like okay that's where i got to shoot it and then like how it stops the ball in the end lane specifically to show you know people like okay now here's your objective before we get started here's what you got to do it kind of like primes you you know that those games are really you know the intuitiveness of the new games that have come out in the last three to three to five years have been you know lights out i mean everything everything that's been offered from jersey jack and and stern have just been really like, you know, engaging the customer, more immersion in the game itself, you know, I mean, really, and then, I mean, we just, when we put Medieval Madness Royal on, on site, I mean, I've, I can't even tell you guys, I've had like 10 Medieval Madnesses, more than that, and, and I, when we unboxed that game, and set it up, and how the, the lights changed, and the displays, this beautiful, huge screen, I was like, they managed to make Medieval Madness better. I don't, I never would have thought that they would have been able – but, I mean, so we're getting there. I think the arrow's pointed up on coin-op, but you have to do it right. I mean, it's all – we kind of – I'm sure you're going to touch on this, but, I mean, you've got to keep the games running right. You've got to keep the games clean, and you've got to keep the appearance of the location has to be well presented. You know what I mean? It's a combination of all those things. You can't just dump games on locations and expect them to make you money.
    25:34
    Yeah, so actually that is exactly what I want to get into. What exactly makes a great arcade? Like what gets people to, one, recognize you and come through the door, and two, stay for a few hours, spend some money, and then three, say, hey, that was fun. I want to do it again. Yeah, I mean that's exactly it. So maintenance, keeping up on your maintenance. I mean any operators listening, don't walk by that machine when you know it's broken. I know the older generation of operators, that's like their thing, you know, like, oh, it's pinball. It doesn't make, you know, every piece of equipment has an earning opportunity. You, you can, you can, you, you might only make a few bucks off that person, but you could lose them forever with bad representation and location, you know, and then choose your locations that are, that are, that keep their places like you would keep a place, you know, I mean, like, you know, we've turned down customers based on how they treat their own location. You have to be selective. If you really, truly want to promote an atmosphere like you're talking about, there has to be some cohesion between you and the location owner and your technicians.
    26:45
    We make sure we put a technician at a site at least weekly to stop in, but it's about communication with the location. You know, our best earning locations for pinball are people that aren't afraid to call me and say, hey, you know, heads up. Here's what's going on here, here, and here. When you send out this guy or that guy or this gal, you know, where do you, you know, can you prep them for some of the issues that are upcoming? You know, and then keeping that maintenance schedule is key. I mean, you know, because when you come into these locations, you know, the last thing you want to do is have a disappointed customer right off the bat. Now, sometimes it's out of your control, but if you do the best you can, you know, the rising tide is going to raise all ships. So the location is going to make more money. They're going to see more foot traffic and they're going to get a reputation for having a well-maintained space. I mean, I'm talking about everything from their bathrooms are clean to their service is good. And then I'll keep my end of the bargain and I'll keep the games playing. right and I'll keep uh the interest up you know we'll make sure we come out and promote it we'll make sure we talk to people in the community about what we're doing here you know and then like you know now one of our locations and everybody knows Helicon Brewing they know that the new schemes are going to be there we we have people talking on the internet about them before we even before they even get there you know people were excited about this stuff so you once you have that buzz I mean I think I think it you just start to roll downhill then you know it's not like you know COVID has had an effect on our business, but I mean, pre-COVID numbers, you know, they were strong locations and they were seeing the foot traffic and a lot of people coming in to spend money on their product, the games, and then staying there. you know and like i always say to our our business owners that we deal with it's like if the if the machines can keep somebody there for one more beer or one more or one more meal or whatever and you multiply that weekly by 52 weeks and then you say there's 20 customers a week to do that i mean you sold a thousand more beers this this year because you have machines sitting there i think it's uh and that's where your margin is so they should focus on their business and i'll focus on our our side of it and and you know if we have that like i said good cohesion between the operator, the location, and then our technicians. Usually that provides a positive outcome. So you brought up COVID and different numbers and whatnot. Are you kind of just hoping, you know, things will kind of come back around here in a year? Or is there a different business plan you guys are going with? I know that a lot of people are going to like renting to homes. Is that something you guys are dabbling in? What is it that the operators are trying to do to stay alive during these times? Yeah. Uh, we had the last meeting we had with Stern. Uh, we have an operator support meeting that we talked to operators and, you know, um, try to discuss strategies on how to, uh, you know, maintain status quo, try, try to weather the storm basically, you know, um, cause it's a big change, you know, like, I mean, I would have never thought We leased out about 90 games, and I wouldn't say that that's my specific business model, but if you were just an operator, it's a great way to bring in some needed revenue. When you're waiting for PPP loans or different things to try to gain some ground on what you're doing financially, luckily, I diversified this business many times over. You know, we bought a bar. We ran a bar. We own an ATM route. We own a vending route. We own a coin-op route. We, you know, we consult for FECs. You know, I own an FEC. You know, but really, all that entertainment went down the tubes. I mean, I was just like hanging on by ATMs and rentals. I invested additional money I had over the years in property to try to just diversify myself. I feel really bad for the single arcade operator who had one location. You've seen a lot of these arcade bars popping up, and it was booming in 2019. I mean, it was at an all-time high. I was visiting probably three to four different arcade bars a month just in my travels through my route. I mean, we operate in the state of Virginia. We operate in the state of West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, Maryland. And you would see or hear about a new place popping up just constantly. I was checking places out trying to support what people were doing in this industry. and and then you know when that came to a crash if that was their only way to make money they probably had a big halt there you know so so that was a great way to kind of weather the storm you know lease out some of your games you know i've seen a lot of people that didn't want to sell their games but i mean you know try i was i was trying to tell anyone that would listen like hey man you can always buy the games again don't get so attached to your inventory that you're not going to sell it, you know, because I mean, let's face it, we're entertainment, you know, the concert industry is not going to come back for another year now. I mean, some of the biggest concert promoters have just said like, Hey, you know, that these tours that were scheduled for July, they're going to be put on the sideline for 2021 again. So for us to foolishly think that we're not going to have to weather the storm for another 365 days. I mean, you know, there's pockets of hope. But really, I mean, as an operator, you have to think, I have to batten down the hatches probably till like March of next year. That's at least my goal. I'm not projecting anymore. My accountant always says to me, he's saying through all COVID, project. We got to September. I said, I made so many bad projections. Why do you want me to project quarter four now? It's like, I can't. There's no way. We were down big. But it's like, this is why we save for the rainy day and we're in business for the long haul. So, you know, but my advice is to do what you can to keep yourself afloat. And when everyone's vaccinated or when we have a handle on something that, you know, I'm an operator, it's out of my control. I don't know. I don't know the logistical matters of COVID. I just know that until people feel safe again, and we can provide an environment where people feel safe, you're going to be down. So you mentioned, like, yes, COVID, it's going to be crazy. What do you envision it going to be, let's say, in a year and a half? Let's all pray that everybody's vaccinated, that the pandemic is on its tail end and people are safe. What do you see the post-COVID world for coin op industry going to be like? I mean, guys, it's all projection, but I hope, and in my mind, it has to come back, right? I mean, people have had some great times at our locations. So, I mean, I just feel like the thing that scares me the most is, will they forget that? I mean, you know, but I don't think they will. I think, you know, really keep up on your marketing. That's like another huge part of it. I mean, like, you know, if your location's closed right now or whatever, don't let your customers forget about you. keep a bug in their ear. Keep doing what you can to keep them interested in what you doing You know it it I hope I do believe that if you if you if you ask me my honest opinion I really believe that we will come back to where we were like in the in 2018 where like not everywhere had an arcade bar, but like there was a lot of smaller, you know, single operator, owner operator places out there like that. I think you're going to see that again. And I think people want to come back out. I mean, you know, you guys have machines in your house, but I'm sure you supported location play. I mean, I'm sure you're looking forward to get back out there. Most arcade hobbyists or collectors, they can't afford to buy every game. I know there's some outliers where guys can buy everything, and I get that. But I mean, most people come to play games on location because they don't have an opportunity to play anywhere else. So I think that just that in and of itself will generate some buzz behind it. you know, people right now or iffy on if they want to come out and things like that. But long term, I think if you actually say you're going to have 18 months from now, I think we've got to be back to getting into our stride there. So I think you'll start to see the location play significantly increase probably sometime early 2022.
    35:30
    Awesome. Well, and I don't know about the East Coast, but I know here in Utah, Some of the locations have opened back up, and I went to one two weeks ago, and I know that the front half of the arcade, where we call the kiddie gambling games, were doing fantastic, but the pinball machines in the back, well, I liked it. I had them all to myself. I could pick which one I wanted. But it was kind of cool because, like, the front half was, like, you know, the younger kids, 10 and under, but back in the back, it was, like, high school-age kids. They'd taken their dates there and were playing pinball, and I'm like, I would have never thought of that as a teenager. Be like, hey, baby, how you doing? You want to go play some pinball? Yeah, you know, we did an event once at Starport. It was called split flipper speed dating.
    36:14
    What a great thing. So basically you paired up and you got one pinball game with a guy or a gal, you know, and you talked and, you know, and seen if you hit it off with that person. So it was interesting to me that you said that because we actually created an event that was all about that. I'll never forget it. And I've never done this, but I've seen it in some movie or something where they did speed dating and you jump around and you talk, you ask all kinds of questions. you got like five minutes they flip over an hourglass or with pinball was like you're playing the left flipper him he or she's playing the right flipper and you flip and you talk you know and if you hit it off with that person you kind of like remembered it and then at the end of the night we're like well who did you like you know and it was funny because some people were like well that guy wasn't very good or you know so they were pointing out like i didn't i liked his answers but i didn't like his gameplay and i'm a gamer so he's out it was it was an interesting concept but yeah i mean it's true i mean it's it's a it's it's really a nice breaker for some people play better so we can date longer come on come on yeah you gotta keep that thing in play so yeah awesome so you you brought this up with uh with having free play nights which i think i think is great when you know when you and i grew up it was basically a pay-to-play you showed up and it was you know 25 cents and the newer games are 50 cents or and what what's what really stopped me going from a lot of these arcades is that it seemed like uh some of them just completely abandoned the the quick uh small coins and they they went for the premium stuff so every single one was like a three dollar or four dollar or five dollar so how do you find that mix of of being able to find games that are relatively cheap to get into versus the premium ones. Because as you said, people will go to a location to say, hey, I want to play that raw thrills, you know, that big buck hunter game, the new one with all the all the stuff where people's like, I want to play Galaga. Like, how do you find that balance? Well, I mean, you know, it's not it's not possible. It's not an exact science. We use a square footage calculation, guys, on earnings, you know, but like, you know, Really, I want to say, too, I don't know where you are, but I don't have any games. I don't really think there's a market in my areas for a $5 game. So that's one of the big decisions that's coming up for us at AMOA.
    38:52
    Eugene has done a game based off of the Kong licensing, and it looks amazing. We had sat in it at a booth at AMOA. I believe it was AMOA in New Orleans, and it was cool. But there's a big hurdle to climb if you're going to charge $5 for a five-minute activity. So as far as the balance goes, I mean, just have everything from one token to four tokens. And I try to represent my business off of that. Anything that we have to have more or it's in a touristy area or higher volume, we have to go to a card system. and you know and then that is just like that's a whole different animal you're in like a vacation area or something like that but like your traditional you know arcade bar or or similar setup now i mean you know you got to have a little bit of everything because you know not everybody wants to play a dollar a play the whole time like you said i mean so you have to kind of say hey here's where it is like our newest games are going to be a buck a play and then after they're two months old, they're 75 cents or three for two bucks. And then, you know, with some of the driving games and things like that, I mean, if you think pinballs are expensive, Mario Kart's like $12,000 per unit, and then you need four units. I mean, you're looking at almost $50,000 in cost to have a four-player Mario Kart. So, you know, those games tend to stay at a dollar or, you know, 75 cents but they tend to draw in the more casual person there's no intimidating factor about like racing games everybody knows like the objective is to get to the finish line where like with pinball like we said there's there's a lot more of uh objectives and side objectives and and even side objectives like you know there's combo bonuses there's you know what your mode score was what your multi-ball score was what your play field there's all kind of different things that Like, you know, to get in depth on a pinball machine is a lot different than to pick up a buck hunter gun and shoot zombies. You know, it's not it's not hard to understand the objective. You know what I mean? So that's why the barrier of entry to understanding the game is much less on like a traditional arcade game. You know what I mean? And now they're slowly like Kong, the new Kong from Raw Thrills is that next level. Like, okay, we're going to take it and make it VR. And I'm telling you, in the last five years, the VR has gotten better and better. I would have never considered ever putting a VR room in my arcade at Starport. And this last year, I started to become a believer. between AMOA in 2019 and then IAPA 2019, then 2020 AMOA in February. I was like, okay, it's there. Like the technology's there. The smoothness of the rendering of the graphics and things like that are there. It's ready. Like now, you know, that's going to be the next thing. Like my kids are going to want to like come to the arcade and play that. So now it's about how do you institute that safely? And I mean, the cost analysis. I mean, because, like, I don't know if you've ever seen, like, the LAI game, the virtual rabbits where you put the thing on and you're in, like, a little cart. I mean, that's $65,000 without a game plugged into it, and you've got to buy the license for the game. So, I mean, you're out, like, really, really, really huge money, and that's where you're talking about. Those attractions cost, you know, several dollars per play. so I mean so so to answer that question I don't know 100% how to uh you know modify what our layouts and things like that but I mean that's why I go and seek education all the time on it like I mean we go we go to meetings we go to seminars we go to online zoom meetings with manufacturers and things like that like that's the world we live in now we have to be educated on the product to see if it's right for us and then when that time comes when I actually do that you know have me back on I'll tell you how it's doing because you know I want that stuff to be out there. I want people to buy these things so that we can, you know, again, keep pushing coin up down the road here. So one of the big things that I've talked about is, well, you talked about it with pinball. Is there so many people that don't understand pinball or they'll, you know, they don't even know how to run the pinball or I get this all the time. Hey, I got this lead on a $300 whatever game, you know, I don't know, like a black night or, or, you know, just, you know, earth shaker or whatever. And I was like, okay, but do you know what the problems are with it? And they're like, uh, I don't know. So a lot of times with pinball and you, you talked about it with technicians and, and making sure that something's well-serviced. So how do you actually learn how to work on something like a pinball machine? Because It can be – the biggest challenge is diagnosing the problem and then actually knowing the treatment for the problem. It makes it completely different versus, oh, well, the monitor is bad. Unplug it and get a new one.
    44:11
    So how do you get that skill set because it seems like such a foreign thing to me? Yeah, I mean – and it is for sure. A lot of people that have experience working with electronics don't necessarily understand the logic of a pinball machine or, for that matter, just anything that we deal with in coin-op.
    44:31
    I personally haven't trained technicians in a while, but we have techs on our staff that have been involved in coin-op basically longer than I've been alive. Some of our senior guys are just incredible. God bless them. But, you know, and they try to train our beginner technicians, like people that are coming on board that have a work ethic, they kind of have some background and like, you know, they can solder, they can do this, they can do that. We look for people that have some skill set. And then, of course, like we don't underpay anybody. That's like my biggest thing. Guys, I refuse to not pay a living wage to people that work for me. It's like so and that's why we have such good success. I mean, we have a real good group of guys and gals that come and troubleshoot this stuff. And then we actually train the staff at the locations. I mean, some of our locations have trained people that work there to recognize a problem, to maybe self-diagnose. And then we try to leave keys at the sites of plate locations that we trust, and they can sometimes alleviate most of our problems. I mean, 80% of our service calls in coin op are coin jam. It's just, hey, man, the coin's jam. Hey, I can't put money in it. That's a problem. But I mean, as far as functionality of the game and training people, having a couple of senior level guys that have just seen all eras of pinball, all eras of arcade, all eras of coin op. I mean, I have a guy that can fix a 1919 Wurlitzer Nickelodeon, and he can also fix a brand new Stern pinball. You know, so, but he's seen all that. He's fixed mechanical slot machines from Mills from the 30s. He's fixed Genco electromechanical pinballs without flippers from the 40s and 50s. You know, he fixes all mechanical games, all dash 35 and dash 18 ballet games, dash 200 stern games, all the way. I mean, he's seen every era. He's worked for other operators. I mean, those guys are like worth their weight in gold. But the nice thing about that is we have a real family type of group of people, and we train. Everyone trains and cross trains. I mean, you know, our best technicians are the ones that are willing to learn. Um, and, you know, and part of that is, you know, you gotta, you gotta make sure you pay up. And, you know, I think that's the other thing in this industry is the traditional street operator doesn't see the value of having somebody who is better trained or who is well compensated. But, you know, I think people tend to work better in our industry if they're not worrying about how they're going to feed their family. So we try to give them a good paycheck and try to treat them how we want to be treated. And in turn, I mean, it's really, you know, the product to the public has been reflected really well with our company. I think, you know, we have, like I said, I mean, we just try to hire people that are motivated, willing to learn, and then we train them properly. You know, that's the thing. You're right. at a baseline, there's no one that's in school right now for an electrical engineering degree that's like, I can't wait to go out and fix pinball machines. I mean, like, because that's not usually where the money is. But, you know, a lot of those times, those guys will take a part-time role for us. And, you know, I mean, matter of fact, this is a funny story. There's a guy that comes to Helicon Brewing who's an actual surgeon, like he's a MD surgeon, and he He wants to, he works on games with us and fixes games for us because he wants to do it. Like, you know, he says, oh, you know, if I fix a game for you, let me keep it at my house for a couple months. I'm like, yeah, that's fine. I'd rather pay you, but I'm never going to be able to pay a surgeon money. So, you know, it kind of like just, but that's just it. So like the people that, the curious minds that are interested in what we do and that, you know, people that can make a career out of it. You know, we have people that are on our staff for 12 years that are career people. They make career-level money. So that's the other part of it.
    48:38
    Yeah, actually, well, I don't know if I even told you this. I'm an anesthesiologist, and so I actually work on my games too. And I actually have another buddy who he actually has kind of the best of belly Williams, and he actually likes working on them more. He's one of my anesthesia partners, but he actually likes working on them more than he actually likes playing them. Oh, wow. So it's been a lot of fun to see that. I'm still – I'm really at the 101 stage. Like I can do some things.
    49:08
    But you – I did want to circle around to what you said about the Royal Edition on Medieval Madness. I actually had the Medieval Madness, and it plays really well. And so I decided to get all the upgrades for it to do the – and I got under there. I pulled all of the lights. I did solder things I installed everything and you're right it's a tonal change on the game is basically the same but the tone and the experience it is much different and you're right it does take it to the next level yeah the immersion in it I never thought I mean guys I remember unboxing Medieval Madness New in 98 when it was new and it was like it was great Brian made this game and it was freaking amazing. And people just gravitated to it. It was like, you know, it had like some kind of like humor in it that was a draw to people and things like that. And that was the immersion back then. But fast forward to today on a reboot of a game that was wildly popular in that era turned into a better game. For me to say that, like I'm telling you, like the initial medieval I was like, great. Now I can stop getting that phone call on at least twice a week. Like, hey, you have this medieval madness at this laundromat and I'd really like to buy it off you. Or, hey, you know, I'm like, now I can just buy it. Like, you know, like I can be left alone. But then really the Royal Edition, I think really it started with like the attack. Attack from Mars. Yeah. I think it was attack from Mars. Yeah. Yeah, the limited topper kind of was like, wow, look at that and how it looked. And it included kind of what was similar to what we called the Bill Ong kit back in the day with the lighted saucers and things like that. So then there was a little bit there. There was a taste. Then Monster Bash came out with like – then the LE had the color-changing GI. When Drac comes out, everything goes red. And it like when you in a dark room and you playing that game the immersion became simply to the next level You know there was never that immersion with incandescent bulbs and those bulbs were not color and all that And then you take it to the next level with what they did there. And, I mean, all the manufacturers are doing that now. I mean, for crying out loud, the light show on Guns N' Roses is – I just don't even know what to say. It's incredible. it's like you know and i don't get wowed about too many things like i collect things that i do get wowed about that aren't coin op related this this stuff is like they're they're really really pushing the envelope and i think that's a great way to the future because kids want to see things that look high tech that feel high tech that feel high end that look high end i mean you know but but we can see it just from that game that was engineered in the 90s they turned into a whole other level of game whenever they made all those changes to the software side of it and the lighting and the different effects that it has.
    52:20
    So I'm going to throw you a quick curveball now that you've brought up Guns N' Roses and whatnot. I don't know if you watched the Pinball Industry Awards, but Guns N' Roses won Game of the Year. Do you, after seeing the game and putting your hands on it versus the other games that have come out this year, do you feel like it deserves the title of Game of the Year? Wow. Man, I'm going to go on the spot. Well, see, here's the thing. There's so many versions of the games, right? So I've pretty much played them all, and oh, man, you're hurting my heart here. But I would say that it is a spectacular game, and as far as a location route game, I think it's going to be a great, phenomenal earner on our primary markets and our secondary markets. As a player, it's not my favorite game of 2020.
    53:15
    What is? What is your favorite game? I just like Avengers, man. I like the feeds. I think the game feeds better. I think the balls feed better. I mean, I love Guns and Roses, and I think it's going to out-earn all those games. So, like, thank you, JJP and Eric, for making something spectacular. I mean, beyond anything I expected, it was incredible. but no I mean I like Avengers I mean you know I'm a comic book nerd so the theme kind of I didn't mind getting another Avengers you see a lot of complaints online about oh it's another Avengers blah blah blah I mean like no it's again that's another license that'll stand the test of time that that game will will will make it to secondary locations and be people that have like you know what I would call B location for us uh will be absolutely thrilled to have that game too And I mean, you know, I just, just my personal, I think that everything Keith's done with Stern has been a really fresh and really admirable effort. It's not like nothing got mailed in, man. He literally, he made something creative. I mean, there's four ramps in Jurassic Park. I still can't get over that. I mean, like, I was like, and they all feed well, and they all, like, don't seem out of place. And, like, sometimes you see games from the 90s, and you're like, like, demo, man. They're like, they just put a ramp there to put a ramp there. There wasn't, like, you know. Yeah, you can't hit it. I mean, not just that. Like, it might be difficult to hit, and I don't mind the challenge, but it's like, this was just the objective of this game was to have as many ramps as possible or whatever, or as many. so but i mean yeah i mean i i think really you you could flip a coin because the games are great you know i do like the standard version of guns and roses a little bit better but the look of the le is just incredible you know like as far as gameplay and how it feeds the flippers and all that i just you know what an amazing this new blood in the pinball industry has brought forward a lot of uh different concepts and layouts and things like that i mean everything that these new guys have done. I've just been, it's a great breath of fresh air. I mean, the veterans are the veterans and they're awesome. And they've done some amazing things even recently. I mean, I really like Led Zeppelin. I love it. But, you know, it's nice to get a breakup of just like constant flow or, you know, there's some nice curve balls in the industry now with some of these people. And I think, you know, hopefully some of Dennis's creativity at American will bring forward some of his ideas to the forefront of their company.
    55:50
    Well, when I got to play Elvira a couple weeks ago, and I loved it. I mean, House of Horrors is, at first I didn't think I'd like it, but it almost brings back the nostalgia of those 90s. I mean, it's the perfect sequel to Scared Stiff, and it just, the shots are far back enough. I don't know, it felt like it was a perfect meld between Medieval Madness and Stern's Pirates of the Caribbean on the layout. And it just – I don't know. Everything shot well. It felt good. I got a kick out of it. For sure. And the code came a long way. Like initially when we got that game, I think that the code was not where we thought it was going to be. But I mean I always like the shots. Shots felt good. I mean it's a long stroke off the flipper on the orbit, and then how the house feeds and keeps the gameplay going. It doesn't always stall you. So I think that Dennis did a great job on that. There's no doubt. And I'm glad that it came to the realization – like everyone came to the realization of how good of a game it really is.
    56:56
    Do you have any games at your house right now? Oh my god, I have – pinballs or games? Cool. Yeah, so like games, I mean I think I have – I mean I have pretty much a full arcade here. So we have the new Halo from Raw Thrills. I have two Cruisants, four Mario Karts. I got a Pac-Royale. I don't know. There's a ton of, I mean, every new Stern pinball release is here pretty much from 2015 on, it looks like. I'm trying to see. I mean, my house, I mean, I've been in court of a long time, guys. I built a room on my house just for an arcade. So, you know, it's not like, I don't want to, I don't want to sound like I have everything, but I've got a lot of stuff, you know? But I mean, yeah, so we have a good arcade. I mean, the kids, you know, when someone comes over my daughter's school or something, they're like, what is this? And so it's like, yeah. So yeah. What do you play the most? right now i play my own game that i made the most because i'm you know i'm in the process of uh just tweaking it so i have a game that'll end up coming to helicon brewing that is uh my own license my own theme and i've been working on it for about six years yeah yep i just i just brought we just brought on board a full-time engineer to go through this over the next three months to make sure that it can be produced. Yep. What type of game is it? Ah, that's for another day. Okay, all right. No, no, it's a pinball machine. I mean, you know, we'll give you that. Yeah, but no, no, no, we'll have to, believe me, you know, one of the things, I made an offer to you guys to meet me in Vegas. I may fly the machine out there and we'll, maybe, we'll see, we'll see. All right, all right, it's a deal. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I love coin-op, man. And, you know, and some of my idols growing up were people that were designing these games. So it's like, you know, now I have the opportunity to do that. And with COVID, that was one of the things I said. I was like, well, wow, I should go through with this. I mean, I've had it and we wired it up to, you know, just to flip off of a power supply. And then I eventually made it flip off of a logic board out of Viking of all games. So like I, you know, and now it's to the point where, so that's what I've been playing the most i mean the kids they pretty well i'm trying to think they still play arabian nights the most actually so that's probably the most played game between between my wife and my kids they like it my youngest daughter's five she just likes how it reads you a story at the beginning she loves that and she cries when it doesn't say her shot was amazing you know that's that's what i deal with in this house now they got that's that's our favorite one But, I mean, as far as the new games that we have out there, I'm trying to think, man. I've been pretty laser-focused on this. But, I mean, I still like Monster Bash LE. I mean, I still play it. I still try to get Rock before Bash. I mean, those are games I like. And then, believe it or not, I guess my 7-year-old, she likes Stranger Things. We have a little board here that we're looking at on Stranger Things and where our scores are. So she's trying to compete with me on that. So we're playing that a little bit too. But for the most part, I mean, you know, I have an opportunity to play games every day. I probably only play games twice a week because it's just like, you know, it's a reward for the kids or, you know, or I'm working on the custom game.
    60:37
    Nice. Well, actually, that's a pretty good cliffhanger right there. Plug some of your locations. If people want to come out and check out your arcades, where are some of the highlights that you have? Hey, man, if you ever come to Pittsburgh, we pretty much, I have to believe, are the pinball capital of the world. But, I mean, there's always arguments being made for other places. We have Helicon Brewing. There's 80 games on site. Chris Brunetti is the owner there, and they have great beer, great food trucks on the weekends. We're opening a second location with Helicon now that's about 15 miles from its first location. You know, check them out. Apis Wine and Meadery in Carnegie, PA, which is right outside of Pittsburgh. They have a great LE lineup of pinball machines.
    61:26
    Also, great, great products there. I mean, wine and mead. If you like mead or if you've ever had mead, Dave's the largest mead producer in the state, I believe. Homemade makes it right there on site. Um, uh, we have, you know, uh, All Saints Brewing Company in Greensburg, PA, another place that has about 30 pinball machines at it. They have a small arcade too, aside from pinball with, uh, the new Buck Hunter, Halo, Fireteam, Raven. So check those places out because I mean, you know, these, these are the small guys that are, that are trying to weather the storm here with COVID and they appreciate any support you can. I mean, check them out online, give them a like on Facebook, anything with our marketing or social media, all that stuff helps. So we appreciate. And then, of course, I want to thank you guys for having me on and shout out to Tim Lee, who, you know, got us together. And hopefully we can do this again sometimes. Guys, you got my number. Call me anytime. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been great to get the business side of things because as an enthusiast, we don't it's hard to understand that we are super passionate about it, but there is a business side. And ultimately, as long as the business isn't viable, then it's difficult to maintain a future in this. Hey, man, that's it. You know, the home market's pretty strong right now, but I mean, you know, it peaks and valleys. I've seen it peak and valley many times. So hopefully we can come back to things, to some sense of normalcy and get back to playing games. I mean, I would love to beat the loser kid in Scott, Anytime, any day. Me and Tim Lee, two versus two. We'll challenge you guys anytime.
    63:08
    Oh, you're putting Scott on my team? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I mean, you know, I hear you're good, so I got to give you a handicap, right? I mean, I got to give you someone that's going to hamper you a little bit, you know? Exactly, exactly. I chump flip. Both hands just slap simultaneously. That's exactly how I play. Oh, man, we got to change that. You got Tim Lee that's like, yeah, I'm not so good at pinball, but I just dropped like $3 billion on Deadpool the other day.
    63:37
    Yeah, man. Guys, call me anytime. I really enjoyed it. Honestly, if you want to touch on any other topics, you know how to get a hold of me. I'm an open book, man. I really want to raise all ships in the coin op business. So to anybody that listens to this, I hope they can learn a thing or two about how they run their operation. Well, it sounds good. Stick around. We'll get some information so we can send you some swag. We have a reputation of having the best hats in the industry, and so we will definitely get you some of that out. And Josh, go ahead and take us out. So before I wrap this all up in our tight little neat bow that we usually do, I want to say a personal thank you. I know that we've already said it on our Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and stuff like that. But thank you guys to everyone out there that has supported us, guys and gals, from the reviews that you leave for us to everything else, and especially to those that come on, like Chris, that come and do interviews, Eric Meunier on our last interview. It was awesome to see so much support and love and to receive the award from the Pinball Industry Awards this last Thursday. Thank you guys for the recognition. I know that we're not in it for the trophies. Well, I'm not. I am. I know Scott is. He's waiting for his crystal to show up so he can take his defying picture for his Facebook page. But thank you. Just thank you to everyone. Yeah. In all sincerity, Josh and I have had such a great time the last two years, and we've been able to talk to amazing people and been able to get in contact with such amazing people. So I sincerely can say that Josh and I are truly humbled that we were recognized for excellence in podcasting in pinball. And we feel that this is a big community and there's lots of seats at the table and we have lots of friends who are excellent podcasters doing their own thing. And so we really do appreciate what everybody brings to it and really making this such a positive experience, especially during the dark times of COVID. And so a big shout out to everybody. And thanks so much for everything. Well, I did put a smile on my face after we had won the award last Thursday. And one of the very first people to reach out to us was Eric Menier. And he said, Game of the Year got interviewed by the podcast of the year. And that was his words, not mine. But I thought it was pretty awesome to get that recognition from Eric. And it's cool that this hobby is small and we all kind of know each other. and we just kind of shoot the breeze and it's nice to have support whether it be in front of the scenes or behind them.
    66:25
    If you want to contact us, you can contact us via gmail at loserkidpinballpodcast at gmail.com or the one that we prefer is Facebook at loserkidpinball.
    66:37
    Also, Twitter and Instagram at loserkidpinball. Messenger is great to get a hold of us. You can be like Tim Lee who just randomly messages us and chats and shows us his awesome scores and then tells us he's not that good at pinball and i'm giving him crap because he's he's here in with recording with us but he's like refusing to talk he's a ghost he's totally ghosting us and so so i'm gonna give him crap if he's gonna keep his microphone off but so but if you want to get a hold of us that's the ways to get a hold of us you got anything else for us scott no it's great just be excellent and uh reach out reach out to your friends in pinball that you haven't been able to play physically with. Certainly try to support your local coin ops, and look forward to a better year than what we had last year. Take care of yourselves. I agree with Scott. I want to put one more thing out there. There are people going through really rough times right now in this hobby, whether you know it or not. Not necessarily to deal with the hobby, but we all know each other because of the hobby. If you haven't talked to someone in a while, just a friend, an acquaintance, Reach out to them. See how they're doing. See how they're living life and whatnot.
    67:50
    We're trying to get through this all together, right? And so that's the best way to do it. All right. We'll see you in two weeks, and take care.
    68:15
    Bye.