Episode 286: Norma Jennings

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·30m 40s·held·Nov 10, 2020

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Norma Jennings: 45-year pinball player, Florida legend, cancer survivor documenting her journey on Twitch.

Summary

Jeff Teeolis interviews Norma Jennings, a 45-year veteran pinball player and pillar of Florida's competitive pinball community, who has been diagnosed with terminal metastatic cancer. Norma discusses her deep history with pinball across all eras (EM to solid state to modern digital), her role in building Florida Pinball Society and Free Play Florida, her recent Women's Tournament victory, and her weekly Twitch stream 'Pinball and Cancer: Two Journeys' where she documents her life while celebrating the pinball community's support.

Key Claims

Florida Pinball Society (FLPS) was founded approximately 15 years ago as a small social group and has evolved into a symbol of Florida's competitive pinball scene, now rebranding as Florida Tournament Players (FTP).
high confidence · Norma Jennings describing FLPS history directly
Norma was diagnosed with terminal metastatic cancer in July 2020 and began streaming 'Pinball and Cancer: Two Journeys' within 48 hours of diagnosis.
high confidence · Norma Jennings personal account
Norma won the Women's Tournament at Free Play Florida (last year), playing Lost World as the final game after winning Walking Dead and placing second or third on Metallica.
high confidence · Norma Jennings describing the tournament
Norma streams 'Pinball and Cancer: Two Journeys' every Tuesday night at 7 p.m. Eastern Time on Twitch, featuring gameplay, cancer updates, and tournament roundups.
high confidence · Norma Jennings describing her streaming schedule
Florida pinball players tend not to travel extensively to out-of-state events due to geographic isolation, with most traveling to Texas Pinball Festival, Pinburgh, or staying within Florida competitive ecosystem.
high confidence · Norma Jennings discussing Florida player characteristics
Steve Epstein, a pinball community member, died of cancer in 2020 after a two-week diagnosis-to-death timeline.
medium confidence · Norma Jennings mentioning this as a cautionary example
Norma has played pinball for 45 years, beginning in the early 1970s when her father introduced her to the game.
high confidence · Norma Jennings and host Jeff Teeolis acknowledging this tenure
Community members, including Carlos (username 'LOS'), are replacing their own high scores with Norma's initials (PEA or PPPPPPA) as a gesture of support.
high confidence · Norma Jennings describing specific example on Metallica machine

Notable Quotes

“The only thing that the old and the new games have in common these days is the little silver ball. There's really very little that you can compare the two ends of the spectrum.”
Norma Jennings @ mid-episode — Encapsulates the radical evolution of pinball across eras while highlighting the game's core essence
“I said to my husband and I said to my family, I'm going to do streaming. I'm going to play pinball, which I've always loved, but I'm going to tell people about my condition.”
Norma Jennings @ cancer diagnosis section — Shows Norma's immediate decision to transform personal tragedy into community connection through streaming
“The world melts away when you play. You're in the world under glass.”
Norma Jennings @ late episode — Articulates the escapist, meditative quality of pinball play central to community identity
“Pinball is not going to die. It'll outlive us all. And the reason why is because of the fun factor and the fact that it offers such a brief, inexpensive escape from whatever you're facing.”
Norma Jennings @ closing philosophy section — Core statement about pinball's enduring appeal and cultural resilience
“Only pinball, because it's so engineering based, can evolve both in the level of play and the things that can be done and the features that can be offered.”
Norma Jennings @ design evolution discussion — Distinguishes pinball's capacity for iterative complexity vs. static games like chess or checkers
“There's a Norma in every family. And it's sad to say that that is true.”
Jeff Teeolis @ late episode, quoted by Norma — Resonant observation about loss and the presence of terminal illness in every community

Entities

Norma JenningspersonJeff TeeolispersonFree Play FloridaeventFlorida Pinball Society (FLPS)organizationPinball AsylumvenueEric StonepersonJeff PalmerpersonNick MuellerpersonZach Sharpeperson

Signals

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community_signal: Florida pinball community exhibits strong mentorship structures with experienced players like Gina Lowe and others actively coaching newer players; Norma emphasizes supportive culture and players lifting each other up
high · Norma: 'They've lifted me up so many times, and I've lifted them up, too. And there's so much friendship that goes on in there.' Discussion of young players like Alex Marino emerging from competitive ecosystem.
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community_signal: Pinball community demonstrating remarkable emotional support for Norma through high score dedications, photos, and engagement with her cancer stream; signals deep interpersonal bonds and empathy
high · Carlos replacing all his high scores with Norma's initials; Sebastian Babio organizing support photos; widespread Tuesday stream viewership; community posting with Norma's initials (PEA/PPPPPPA)
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content_signal: Emergence of Twitch streaming as major community engagement channel; Norma's 'Pinball and Cancer: Two Journeys' demonstrates both entertainment and mental health utility of streaming within pinball community
high · Weekly Tuesday 7pm ET broadcasts; featured slideshows of support; tournament roundups; combines gameplay with health/wellness discussion; attracts viewership from across country and beyond Florida
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historical_signal: Detailed account of pinball evolution across technological eras (EM → solid state → DMD → LCD); highlights how regulation (NYC gambling laws), pricing, and gameplay mechanics evolved in tandem; provides archival perspective on industry transformation
high · Norma's 45-year tenure; memories of 1970s EM arcades (5-ball format, dime/quarter pricing, NYC anti-gambling rules); transition to solid state with computer displays and higher prices (25¢→50¢); modern games at $1 with cinematic expectations

Transcript

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0:00

It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teeolis. You can find everything on PinballProfile.com. All your subscriptions, past episodes and more, PinballProfile.com. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter at PinballProfile and email us, PinballProfile at gmail.com. We're going to Florida right now to one of that state's most favorite people. And I enjoy seeing this woman every year at Free Play Florida. It obviously won't happen this year, but good to talk to her on this program, Norma Jennings. Hi, Norma. How are you? Norma Jennings Hi, Jeff. Thanks very much. I'm excited to be here. It's quite an honor. Norma Jennings Well, it's great to talk to you, too. I would be seeing you roughly this time. I mean, last year, I remember getting to Free Play Florida before the event even started. And there you are with Daniel Spoiler and maybe a handful of other people helping set up. And you've been a big, big help to FreePlay Florida for many years. And that's how I got to know you. Well, thank you very much. You know, it's the highlight of the year for pinball in the state of Florida. And Florida is a very competitive state when it comes to pinball. But we always enjoy seeing people from around the state and around the country and beyond just coming and competing against the best that Florida has to offer. And it's a stern circuit event. So there's a lot more on the line as well. It's always a thrill. Yeah, that event has grown and grown. I think I've been there three, maybe four years, and this would have been another one, but we'll do it again next year. But you're right about that Florida scene. I see a lot of people with their FLPS shirt, and you are a big part of that as well. Yeah, well, thank you. FLPS stands for Florida Pinball Society. It dates back about 15 years. It started with a small group of Southeast Florida players that gathered together to play mostly social pinball at each other's homes. There were free tournaments, no prize money, no points. It was all social. The hosts supplied free food and drinks. And for about five years, it was kind of a rotating party scene. But around the middle of the last decade, we saw the rise of the barcades in Florida and elsewhere and the birth of competitive pinball centers like the Pinball Asylum in Fort Myers. There was also the rising profile of the IFPA and the World Pinball Points. And suddenly, the barcades and others were hosting their own weekly and monthly tournaments. They were siphoning off players from the social events and other local clubs also were trying to form to try to copy the FLPS model. They were short-lived. So FLPS has evolved from being just sort of a regional group of players. It's more a symbol of Florida's competitive pinball scene. And even FLPS, too, is evolving into something that Jeff Palmer calls the FTP, the Florida Tournament Players. And that mission is to foster competitive pinball in Florida. And it's been great. It's been great. We've been seeing a doubling of the competitive players probably every two to three years. And had the pandemic not come around, I think we probably would have seen even more this year. It's still a very popular sport in Florida. I first met Jeff Palmer at Freeplay Florida, and I think that's probably where I first heard of flips. But you're right about all the competitive players that have come out of there. Everyone knows Eric Stone and people like him from Fort Myers, but you mentioned Jeff Palmer. Young Nick, I remember seeing him. And then what does he go and do? He almost wins the national championship. So Florida has so many great players and you're one of them for sure. Well, thank you. I mean, so let me throw a few more names out there. We're talking about Nick Mueller. Of course, he finished second in the North American Championships, went on to the IFPA World Championships, and he finished 12th, including a magnificent tiebreaker involving Zach Sharp, who he lost to in the North American Championships. That was tremendous. Eric Stone, he's basically a legend. Take a look at some of the new players I think are coming up. One kid in particular I think is going to be a superstar at some point is Alex Marino. You should remember that name. He's about the same age as Escher Lefkoff, Colin Urban, about that same age group. He's part of those young guns that are coming up now. I think you'll see him really take off. And we get a lot of newbies kind of coming in and we're amazed at some of their skills. They challenge almost right away for the SCS. Florida is a tough state to win. And I see that when I come to the event there and we'll be coming back again for IFPA 17 when that finally happens for the World Championship. Kind of nice to be coming to your home state there and to the pinball asylum. But that's the thing I noticed about so many Florida players. You might not see them on the circuit or in and around the country, but when you come to Florida, boy, you better have your A game because there are some great players. And I think what you'll find is that the Florida players like competing against each other. You know, Florida is a bit geographically limited in a way. We really can't compete in any other states in a way because we're surrounded on three sides by water. The most that people could do would maybe go to Texas Pinball Festival. You see a lot of the pilgrimage of the Florida players there. They go to Pinnberg. But they don't really frequent a lot of the out-of-state events. I think it's just the nature of Florida pinball play. And we do have a lot of players to play against. And in a way, we have our own little microcosm of great players, of great champions. And it is such a great family of pinball, too, in Florida. There's a lot of camaraderie, a lot of people lifting each other up. They've lifted me up so many times, and I've lifted them up, too. And there's so much friendship that goes on in there. And you also have some great long-time players. You have Dan Coyle, Lee Muscartolo. These are names that go way back into the pantheon of pinball history. And they play in Florida. And they love playing in Florida. And we love playing them. Norma, you actually have a great history. You mentioned that Flips has been around for about 15 years. But as far as you and pinball, 45 years of playing the Silver Ball. So I wonder, you know, there are a lot of younger people than you and I listening to Pinball Profile right now. I want you to describe some of your memories. I remember this when I was a kid and as Pinball has evolved. I wonder what it was like for you when you remember Pinball going from EMs to solid states to DMDs and LCDs. What was it like for you when you saw these changes in Pinball? Well, I have to tell you that you're right. There have been a lot of changes. And my dad first put me on top of an inverted milk crate back in the early 70s and showed me where the flippers were. But when he did that, I never dreamed that this game would become such a great part of my life and the one constant really throughout my entire life. As I'm really reflecting back on my entire life right now, and pinball has been the great constant. Now, all the games back in the early 70s were electromechanical games. And the sounds in one arcade were no different than the sounds in any other. It was just a cacophony of bells and clacking score reels. And even back then, you had games that were broken, but they were still raking in dimes and quarters, even nickels. You could buy three games for a quarter. Every game was five balls. I mean, how they settled on five balls is a magic number as anybody's guess. But I lived in New York and you weren't allowed to win a free game or sometimes even get an extra ball. That would have been considered receiving compensation for play and that by definition would be gambling. So you didn't really have that, but I still enjoyed pinball. It was cheap, fun. It was a game I could play by myself. I had very few friends growing up. It was also something my dad and I enjoyed together and we didn have much in common growing up so that gave me a great connection to him Of course we grown closer over the years and pinball has been a part of that all along And you know when solid state games came out I was just over the moon I was enthralled by pocket calculators back when they were a new thing, and I begged my parents to get me one so I could do math, which I love, and I could look at the glowing numbers. And when I saw pinball games were using computers to show the score, I just couldn't get enough of the displays. And of course, they made different sounds and everything was excellent. But the prices were going up, as you may remember, Jeff. It was now a quarter a game and now 50 cents. That's the thing that drove me nuts, Norma, because, yeah, it looked a lot better and there were more things you could do and games like Gorgar would talk to you and that was pretty cool or Black Knight and there's magnets and, wow, they've really done a lot with pinball with solid states. But wait a second, I was used to the five balls, all the smoke and mirrors. I'm like, wait a second, the games are going up in price, five balls down to three balls. I remember getting miffed as a kid. That's exactly how I felt too. I thought, let's see, more technology, higher price, and I get fewer opportunities. But at least by then they were giving me an extra ball. So of course I was always fighting for that. At least maybe they could pull four out of it or something. And yes, when Gorgar and Black Knight and Firepower came out, I was enthralled. The game could talk to me now. And that just drove me toward computers. I loved computers and it turned out being my life's work, but now we've got the modern games. And I admit I'm a little crestfallen again here, too. I love the games. Don't get me wrong. The new Stern games in particular are really knocking out of the park and you've got Jersey Jack and you've got all these people really trying to push the envelope. But when you go and play on location, they're a dollar a game and people's expectations are just through the roof. They want the games to do everything perfectly. They want all the music and the speech to be scripted like a Hollywood film. I really, as I thought about this, I realized the only thing that the old and the new games have in common these days is the little silver ball. There's really very little that you can compare the two ends of the spectrum. It's just about the ball. The ball, the flippers, yeah, but it's certainly evolved and I think pinball's gotten a lot better too. I mean, I certainly enjoy the classics. I know you do too. And you really have to be good at all aspects of pinball. That's something you showed, in fact, last year at Free Play Florida. It was a huge women's tournament. And look who was on top, Norma Jennings. I was, yes, that was something. And I mean, you know, that was quite a tournament, that's for sure. And what's funny is I didn't intend to play in it. Dan Spollard asked me to be the tournament director of classics, and I gladly accepted. And I remember you and I helping set up and I thought to myself, well, I'm here. I'm here as a tournament official this time. I'm really not here as a player. I'm here as hospitality. I want to make sure everybody has a good time. Which you did. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I think we did our level best and as we always do. And I only started being a TD in April. Word had gotten around Florida of my fairness and rules knowledge. So Dan took a chance on me to help him. And I really didn't want to disappoint him. So I didn't want to go gallivanting off and doing my own thing when my first priority was really helping to manage classics. But I did find myself with some break time. So I went over to the Women's Tournament Bank, which was behind me, and I started to play those games. Now, I knew those particular machines very well from a place called Arcade in Winter Haven. And I ended up winning my very first IFPA Open event there. So I knew those games well. And I started putting up my usual scores on them and, you know, blink of an eye, I'm number one going into the finals. So in the finals, I was in the final four and I faced three players that I knew very well, strong female players in Florida, Gwen Octavia, Bobby Dothit and Cheryl Jaros. They're very good players. I've played them all before. I was happiest that no matter who won, it would be a Florida girl. We wanted to have somebody from Florida win it. I won Walking Dead and I placed either second or third on Metallica. And I knew that if I won on Lost World, I'd be the champion. So they wheel over, you know, they wheel over the rig there. You know, we've got Carl D'Angelo, i.e. Pinball, announcing me. I know there's people around the country and beyond that are watching. It was the first time I had been on Twitch playing pinball, so I was very nervous. I got a little dizzy playing Lost World. I was the pressure was starting to get to me, but I had a good ball, too. And I did a plunge of victory for the last ball. And I think most people remember me sort of standing on two of the hotel chairs and yelling out, I won free play. So I was excited. But it was a great tournament. And I think everybody ended up having a great time. It was a good time. It was a great tournament. Great to see you on top of that. And like you said, yeah, I remember specifically you saying that you weren't going to play. And you certainly volunteered countless hours, not only last year, but years past too. So it's nice to kind of get in there. I felt the same way too at Indus. Jim Belcedo and Carl D'Angelo were working their butts off and Jim didn't get to play in any of the big tournaments, which are big opportunities, if you will. And these are world-class players, but he finally agreed to play the high stakes and he won it. So I thought that was kind of nice, almost pinball karma that he got to play in one tournament and did very, very well in it. So I feel the same way about him in that as I did with you in the women's at Free Play Florida. Yeah. And Jim Belcedo is, you know, he's really a great player and very patient with people and everything. I really have to tell you that it almost doesn't matter where you go. The pinball community is so supportive. And you know what's funny is that for my stream, which I think we'll probably talk about in a few minutes, I received so many pictures, photographs of support from people well beyond the state of Florida. And it just told me that it's a larger community than just the state. And it's larger than just these certain circuit events or these one-off tournaments. It's a larger extended family. It's a very tall and broad family tree in competitive pinball. Well, I know about those pictures. Sebastian Babio kind of put that together and he asked several of us to send a picture your way and we've seen those on your stream. And here you are talking about playing last year in FreePlay Florida being on stream for the first time. Well, now you're a veteran because you do this every Tuesday night on Twitch. And why don't you let people know what you're doing? Well, sure. Thanks for that. So I was diagnosed with the terminal metastatic cancer in July of 2020.

14:25

I guess it really had come on pretty much the entire year. I really didn't quite know how to react to it at first. I've been told that I don't have very long to live, but I knew one thing right away. And I'm telling you, this is within 48 hours of my diagnosis. I said to my husband and I said to my family, I'm going to do streaming. I'm going to play pinball, which I've always loved, but I'm going to tell people about my condition. And I'm going to call my stream Pinball and Cancer, Two Journeys. And I broadcast every Tuesday night live at 7 p.m. And we talk about pinball. We talk about cancer. I play one of the games in my in my home. I have a small collection. And we do what I call tournament roundup where we talk about what tournaments are going on in Florida and really beyond Nobody communicates with me about any other tournaments but I always eager to announce what going on with other tournaments around the country and beyond But we stick to Florida mostly And we talk about challenges and other things that people are doing And at the beginning of the broadcast I feature a slideshow of all the people in the pinball community who have sent their support of me And a lot of them have started posting high scores using my initials, which are PEA, which is sort of an inside joke with my husband. My husband calls me Sweet Pea. And so that was something that I sort of, it was my signal to him back when I was playing in some tournaments, he could see what games I did well on. And everybody has been just so incredibly aware of what I'm doing. And I feel just blessed that people are concerned about me. I have more friends in this community than I ever thought I did. And they have shown their love to me in so many different ways. We have one guy who goes by LOS, his name is Carlos, and he participates in Florida tournaments when he can. He lives down very south Florida, down the Miami area. And he made a commitment on a game of Metallica that he plays all the time where he already owns all the high scores. He owns everything. He can destroy and fuel and combos and the end of the line. He owns all the high scores already. And he had them all as LOS, LOS, LOS, LOS, LOS, LOS, LOS. And he said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to break all of my high scores. And when I do, I'm going to put PPPPPPA all the way down. And he is making progress there. And he sent me pictures earlier today. He took down another one. And then he took down one he already took down. So this guy is just a machine. He's about halfway there. And it's an example of what people are doing in my name, in my honor. And I just can't stop just loving what people are doing for me. But it's Pinball and Cancer, Two Journeys. And I play every Tuesday night at 7. And there are other streamers out there. And I give a shout out to them, some of the veterans that are finding me. And I thank them for tuning in. You are my support system. You are my social outlet at this point in time because of the pandemic and my depressed immune system. I don't really have a competitive social life. So it's really great that they're showing me so much love. Norma, you're extremely brave because it would be very easy for so many people to just privately deal with this horrible situation that you've been given and maybe keep it personal and keep it within the family. But you share so much on your stream and even on this podcast right here. I love hearing you get these great accolades from friends all across the country, the world. And really, you're receiving something back that maybe you didn't know was there, but you're seeing the impact you've made on so many people, myself included, from just brief encounters. It's the positive light that you are that we need more of in pinball. And you're such a great example and a big reason why things like FreePlay Florida is such a wonderful experience. And so, again, you sharing all of this on Pinball and Cancer on Twitch, it's outstanding. I'm at a loss for words because it's not something I could say I can do. But when I see the feedback you get and the joy it brings you, it really touches my heart. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, it's pinballing cancer, two journeys, 7 p.m. Eastern Time every Tuesday. And it is my way of plugging into the outside world. And the outside world is plugging back into me. And I love to just play. I have segments where I talk about cancer and about how I'm feeling. I don't feel so good. I'm having trouble eating or they gave me some really harsh chemotherapy and I'm feeling very tired lately. And I just tell these things because to be honest with you, I need to share these things. It started out really just being a communication vehicle. It was a lot easier to say it outwardly in one venue than to have to have all the phone calls with your friends. But you're right about that part, Jeff, about that I didn't know what I had. I think if I could give one message to everybody, it would be first, well, maybe two messages. The first one is don't skip your cancer screenings, whatever you do. It's really, really, really important. We lost Steve Epstein earlier this year to cancer and we lost him in the blink of an eye. He found out he had cancer and then two weeks later he's gone. Now it doesn't happen like that all the time, but it can. And for me to be here alive and see and know the love that I'm receiving, I'm telling you, it makes it worth it to know that you got to see how much people loved you instead of just being plucked from this earth. So, you know, ignominiously, so instantly, I'm getting so much out of it. And so thank you for that, Jeff. You know, you look at your immediate future and you're not in denial. I'm going to say this because it means a lot to me for people that I've lost. What makes it easier for the people left behind is knowing that the person leaving us is at peace. And you share that with people on your stream, with people you talk to. That means a lot. Well, thanks. It was you that told me, and I'll share this quote with everybody. You said, there's a norma in every family. And it's sad to say that that is true. That's not going to change in the near term. But I can tell you this much that when I started this stream, a lot of streams on Twitch are mostly virtual happy hours or lively, fun conversations. I realized when I started Pinball and Cancer, two journeys, I realized that I was swimming further upstream than anyone had ever dared to go. I mean, who was going to tune in each week to see how much worse I was feeling? But then I realized that cancer didn't have to be the whole show. I still loved pinball. And despite this one unfortunate journey, one I'm being told will certainly end before I wanted to, I still have this other pinball journey that's been mostly a happy journey my entire life. And I just love to play and be my old self and make fun of the shots I'm making. Oh, I blew it again. And all I have to do is hit this ramp. And, oh, gosh, you've got to stop doing that. And, you know, just making fun of what I'm seeing and hearing and people laugh along with me. And it's the laughs and the happiness and the game that I want to share as well. It's a message stream, there's no doubt about it, but I also want to share the happiness that I feel. And I'm not in denial. I'm at peace with what's going to happen. I just don't know how it's going to happen, but I'm at peace with it. I think we all have to make that peace. But I like the happiness associated with what I'm doing. The feeling that you're playing and that this is such a wonderful game and it has to be a part of your life. And once you play, you don't want to stop playing. Do you realize we're still raking in and discipling players even during the pandemic here in Florida? We've got the big fish took out in the ocean and we're still reeling them in. With as few tournaments and as few opportunities and as few venues, we're still hooking them in. That tells me the game is magical that the game transcends life and death And that what I want to keep playing into For everyone very few of us are fortunate to be able to tell people how we really feel Sometimes it too late before we get to say that So in your stream, we're seeing you communicate your true feelings, you're letting people know how you feel. And that's a nice positive message because, as I mentioned earlier, it puts a lot of us at ease. It goes right back to you as well. And you're getting that gratification. And we're seeing the delight that pinball gives you and will continue to give you and so many other people, too. It's so special what you're doing. I can't thank you enough. Well, thank you, Jeff. I mean, all I'm trying to do is give sort of a raw, unfiltered look about what I'm doing. And also, just it's a big opportunity for me to be happy. And I'll tell you this much. And when you play, the world melts away. You know that. You're absolutely right. It is an escape. This is why I say it transcends life and death, because you're not thinking of anything when you're playing. You're in the world under glass. Yeah. And if I could live under that world forever, I would jump at it. But of course we can't. So this is our escape. It's an escape that doesn't involve a drug or illegal activity or anything like that. It's just a fun way to test yourself, to connect with others, to play and enjoy. And that's the thing that I've seen over and over and over again. Yes, do people get carried away playing this game? Oh, absolutely. Do they try to turn it into something that it's not? No question. But each one in the core of the core of their heart all feel exactly the same way. And I think that's why the pinball people connect so easily to each other. We all have the same feeling about the game and we all want to escape to that same happy place that lies under glass and that costs only a dollar to play now. And it's not going to stop. Pinball is not going to die. It'll outlive us all. And the reason why is because of the fun factor and the fact that it offers such a brief, inexpensive escape from whatever you're facing. When I'm playing in a tournament, whether I'm playing at home, whether I'm on location, I have stopped doing this for years now, but I still see people do it. It's a bad ball, or it's a house ball, or it's a drain, or something didn't switch, and they lose their minds and they just get so upset. I don't have that feeling anymore. Listen, if it's a competition, of course I want to do well, but I just keep saying to myself, I'm playing pinball. I'm not busting my butt at work. There's so many other things I could be doing that don't even come close to being this fun. So I just stopped getting upset and I see a lot of competitors just not realize that and just kind of beat themselves up over it. And it doesn't sound like that's in you at all. Not anymore, though I am guilty as charged. When I first came on the scene, all I wanted to do was win because that's how I approached my entire life to that point. What did I say was losing is not an option. You have to win. And if I really wasn't good at something, I walked away from it. Now, my entire life, teenage years, young adult years, I could walk into any arcade and put up Grand Champion on just about any game I wanted to, you know, sort of queen of the arcade sort of a thing. And even in Florida, before I took up competitive pinball with the rest of the groups and everything like that, I would go into arcades and, oh, that person's got a high score? Well, let me show them, right? So I would take down their score. Then I'd come back the next time and they took down my score and then I would have to take it down again. And so to some degree, I wasn't having fun anymore. And I went through this even in my college years, too. I just got to the point where all I wanted to do was compete against myself and it wasn't fun. And I had to learn how to see the game differently. And I, you know, the closer you are to the world ranked number one, the more pressure you're going to feel. The closer you are to making the state championship, the more intense you're going to play. The longer you go in a four strikes, five strikes, or beyond tournament, people's nerves start to fray and they are going to be tense. But when they all walk away, and no matter what words they've had with each other, they always come back. Why? Because there's no substitute for this game. No one's invented anything that's as good. Well, they have digital pinball now. It's not as good as the real thing, the game. And that makes it unique. And when people see something unique, they're just going to gravitate back to it. You think of games, not pinball machines, but just games in general, some sort of recreational event. How many things have stood the test of time like pinball and have evolved like pinball? You can think of when lawn darts were the thing, Frisbees were everything. My goodness, if you didn't have a Frisbee, you were nothing. Just the Rubik's Cube, oh, it's the greatest invention ever. Now, Pinball evolved, keeps going strong, and like you say, will continue to. And we've certainly seen that with the growth of companies, too, as well. And it evolves on its own path, which is something that the other games didn't do. They evolved Rubik's Cube. They went from a 3x3x3 cube to a 4x4x4. Well, that's simply an extension of the same model. Only pinball, because it's so engineering based, can evolve both in the level of play and the things that can be done and the features that can be offered. And that's why I said the only thing in common with the old and the new games is the ball because everything else about it changes. Even the flippers on electromechanical games, they're not the same flippers as you see today. They've changed the length of flippers. They've changed the action of flippers. They flip faster. They flip slower. You can stage flip. You couldn't do some of these things with old games. So, pinball evolves in such a way that nothing else has ever evolved this way. No other games, like you said. Checkers can't evolve this way. Chess can't evolve this way. It's all variations on the same thing. But only pinball can transform itself to be something completely different and yet retain the fanaticism of the original. So true, Norma. We look forward to seeing you on your Pinball and Cancer 2 Journey stream Tuesday nights at 7 p.m. Eastern on Twitch. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. It's wonderful to know you. I wish you way more good days than bad. And I know you have your swings and I just wanted to thank you very much for coming on the program. And it means a lot talking to you right now. Well, thank you, Jeff. It was thrilling and a new thing for me. And I'm still doing new things. So that also makes me happy, too. And this has been great. And I recommend it to everyone. So thank you again, Jeff. Thank you, Norma. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. I'm Jeff Teolis.