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Ep 15: High School Pinball w/ Johannes Ostermeier

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 19m·analyzed·Aug 29, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Final Round interviews Johannes Ostermeier on competitive pinball strategy and the European scene.

Summary

Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins interview Johannes Ostermeier, an 18-year-old former world #1 IFPA-ranked pinball player from Germany, discussing his competitive journey, approach to new games like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and the European pinball scene. The conversation covers game strategy, multiball management, machine diversity, and the cultural differences between competitive pinball communities in Europe versus North America.

Key Claims

  • Three pinball machines will be announced in September (one from Stern, one from Jersey Jack, multiple from Deep Root)

    medium confidence · Jeff Teolis predicts this during opening segment, stating 'I think there's going to be three pinball machines announced in September'

  • TMNT Pro machines reached Australian distributors approximately 6 weeks after US release (early June announcement, early August delivery)

    high confidence · Martin Robbins reports receiving TMNT Pros 'three days ago' (week of Aug 24, 2020) and confirms typical 6-week shipping timeline to Australia

  • Games are hard to come by in some parts of North America due to supply chain constraints

    medium confidence · Jeff Teolis mentions league members reporting difficulty buying new in-box machines depending on location

  • Johannes Ostermeier has been playing pinball since age 4 (2006) for 14 years

    high confidence · Johannes states 'it all started when I was four years old, back in 2006' and later confirms 'I've been playing for 14 years now'

  • The German pinball scene is less competitive but more fun-focused than the US scene

    high confidence · Johannes Ostermeier describes German scene: 'the scene is a bit less competitive than the US... lots of players who just go to tournaments to have fun'

  • IFPA 17 World Championship will be held in Germany, likely at Freddy's with pre-tournaments planned in Fulda

    medium confidence · Johannes mentions 'we plan to do some pre-tournaments in Fulda' for the IFPA World Championship in Germany

  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pinball needs code updates to reach the quality level of Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park

    medium confidence · Johannes assesses TMNT: 'it can become a pretty nice game because I like the flow... but if we wait a bit more and we have some more updates, some new codes'

  • Raphael is the optimal character choice in TMNT pinball because modes are directly lit

    medium confidence · Johannes advises 'the best way to choose is to go with Raphael... you can shoot to the modes and already start it'

Notable Quotes

  • “People are dying for more Final Round. They're having to fill it with other shit, and they need Final Round.”

    Martin Robbins @ opening — Sets tone for community demand and podcast relevance during COVID lockdowns

  • “I've always wanted to be number one. But since I've reached that spot, it is like, well, history, it is like past. And now I'm just looking forward to playing and competing with all the best players in the world.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~20:30 — Reveals mature competitive mindset—ranking no longer motivates him, competition does

  • “I like the flow. You can reach the left upper flipper by hitting the right ramp or by hitting the right loop. And it is a pretty quick game. But the rules right now I don't think you can compare it with other games like Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~46:00 — Early assessment of TMNT—playable but rules need depth; hints at code update expectations

  • “The most important thing is to just adapt yourself to every machine. You can't just say, I don't like Gottliebs. That's the wrong opinion about the game. Always try to keep the control over the ball.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~54:00 — Core competitive philosophy: adaptability and ball control trump era preference

  • “We have basically all eras in our basement, but we don't have any Gottliebs.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~57:30 — Reveals access gap to Gottlieb machines in Germany despite diverse collection

  • “The scene in Germany is a bit different. They just like playing. They just like having some drinks and staying up late. And yeah, it's all about fun.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~63:00 — Contrasts European casual/social scene culture with North American competitive intensity

  • “If I play internationally, I usually go to tournaments also to have fun, but also to play well and to compete with other players.”

    Johannes Ostermeier @ ~63:30 — Shows hybrid approach: balances European social ethos with competitive ambition on world stage

Entities

Final Round Pinball PodcastorganizationJeff TeolispersonMartin RobbinspersonJohannes OstermeierpersonStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyDeep Roots GamescompanyTeenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Jeff Teolis predicts three pinball machine announcements in September: one from Stern, one from Jersey Jack, and multiple from Deep Root Games

    medium · Jeff: 'I think there's going to be three pinball machines announced in September. One from Stern. One from Jersey Jack... Deep Root's already said that they're going to be showing the launch... multiple machines maybe from Deep Root.'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Australia experiences significant shipping delays (approximately 6 weeks) for new pinball machines compared to North America; TMNT Pros only arriving in Australia in late August despite US distribution starting in mid-June

    high · Martin Robbins: 'We got our pros this week... that's showing you how much longer it takes... it's usually about a six-week... get on the ship and send over here, get through customs.'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Multiple pinball league members report difficulty purchasing new in-box machines depending on location; distributors may lack sufficient stock

    medium · Jeff: 'I had a bunch of guys in my pinball league tell me that how difficult it is to buy new-in-box pinball machines, depending on where you are.'

  • ?

    code_update: Johannes Ostermeier assesses TMNT as having solid playfield flow and basic rules, but predicts code updates will be necessary to elevate it to the quality tier of Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park

    medium · Johannes: 'It can become a pretty nice game... but if we wait a bit more and we have some more updates, some new codes, it can become a really, really great game.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Raphael is the optimal character selection in TMNT because modes are pre-lit, allowing direct access without prerequisite shots; majority of players selecting Raphael

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.237

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:39
Thank God, another edition of Final Round. My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. That two weeks was two weeks too long, Jeff. Way too long. People are dying for more Final Round. They're having to fill it with other shit, and they need Final Round. Maybe we should go daily. No, not happening. maybe we should i'm again it's interesting we started this podcast to talk about tournaments what i know what are those things you ask it's interesting we've still got obviously lots to talk about there's lots to report on we've got lots of great people to speak to it's amazing we can still get some great content out most of it's bullshit but yeah absolutely We can fill a couple hours, can't we? Every couple of weeks. Well, speaking of bullshit and speaking of every couple of weeks, how was your last fortnight? Marty, it brings a tear to my eye every single time you ask me and pretend to give a shit about what I've done over the last two weeks. I'm not even trying to make it sound genuine.
1:44
Well, that's good because the last two weeks sucked. Absolutely were terrible. Where do you want me to start?
1:52
At the suckiest part. tough to say you know there's a couple of contenders here is it the tree that fell into my pool that's a big one okay that's pretty shit yep i already had a diving board don't need to jump off a branch thanks very much anyway that kind of sucked did i mention that happened while i was out where was i out my lovely wife and who you know and love just as much as i do maybe even more you know it's more okay she's always wanted to go camping with me like i'm some fucking boy scout and i need to go into a tent that's not the kind of pitching tents i want to be doing let me just tell you that right now yeah so i you know what it's covid where else are we gonna go there are no bloody pinball tournaments for me to go to so i'm like you know what we live in beautiful ontario canada let's go up north let's go camping we got lucky had some nice weather first day a little bit of rain so that kind of sucked on the tent didn't matter i had earplugs although it was a little congested and then some asshole decided to chop wood just before 7 a.m not to mention the loons on the lake zero sleep after day three i i had to pull a shoot and say i'm out of here i've got to go we had a four-day thing planned i'm out of here you can stay i'll come back and get you this is and and that's kind of what happened you know what you know i'm sure it's a it's a tragic story for you i think that the bit where you said we went out is where i have to stop you there because I have been out three times out of the house over the last fortnight, and all three times was just to go and get groceries. So... Luxury. It's like the fact that you say we're going camping. It's like, oh, my God. No, I don't. I hate camping. But we are still in lockdown. So I think we've got two more weeks to go, and our numbers of COVID cases per day and deaths are coming down. And so we're on the mend, which is good. Yeah, we almost had a death this weekend. It had nothing to do with COVID, though. I'm just telling you, that guy chopping the wood, he almost saw a different side of that axe. I'm telling you right now. Everything's fine. I came home. Came home to the pool being destroyed. But hey, that's fine. Oh, and then you know what? Because you've got a long weekend, a long day, you want to kind of relax. Honey, what would you like for dinner? I'm looking after it, knowing full well it's kind of a mind game. I know she's not going to ask me to cook. it's basically where we're going to order something out she was in the mood for pizza and i'm like okay what would you like and she said pizza hut who is not a sponsor of the show they should be ever be oh what i will tell you why a free pizza is a free pizza this is a good point when i used to be on air and i did the sports radio trivia thing we would go on air and just turn on the mic go god am i hungry i can't believe i gotta be for six hours i didn't eat oh i could die for a pizza within an hour we'd have like three cent of the radio station it was gold It doesn't work so well in a podcast. Anyway, that's a sidebar. The point is, she wanted Pizza Hut. I'm like, okay, why don't I call them up? She goes, just use the app. First of all, have you ever used a pizza app? Yes, I have. Okay, what do you think of it? Well, they're quite confusing because there's lots of options. Yeah. You know what's easier than a pizza app? Calling the fucking pizza place. Yeah. It takes 30 seconds as opposed to inputting in your credit card, all this other bullshit. Yeah, I know. Make sure you're – holy – it's the dumbest thing ever. I remember when – it could be Pizza at Anybody, Domino's, Anybody. And they said, you know, go to our website. I'm like, why can't I pick up a phone? Am I an old man telling you to get off my lawn? Yeah, I mean, you are. But I'm also that same old man telling people to get off my lawn as well. So, yeah, I agree with you. But we actually have a really good chain of pizza stores here called Crust. And it's really simplified. so you don't have all the different options. So that's good. I'm just trying to get a lot of calories. Wait, is that the doorbell? I think I just had a crust pizza delivered. Marty, everyone is dying to know how it's been for you the last couple of weeks. What's been going on in your world? Well, it's been fairly slow as far as pinball goes, but I've got to tell you, my greatest and most exciting purchase that I've had in the last couple of weeks, I now have a green screen. Really?

  • Paul Englert, approximately 13 years old, has won tournaments in Fulda against top European players including Daniele, Robert Sata, and Levente

    high confidence · Johannes describes Paul as young talent who 'has already won some tournaments in Fulda, also against players like Daniele and Robert Sata, Levente, Julio'

  • Johannes won the IFPA World Championship on Iron Maiden

    high confidence · Johannes states 'like from Stern, we got Iron Maiden, which I've won the world championships' on

  • “Six weeks just for shipping, longer than anybody else.”

    Martin Robbins @ ~12:00

    • game
    Iron Maidengame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Eric Stoneperson
    Raymond Davidsonperson
    Grant Stevensperson
    Robert Sataperson
    Danieleperson
    Tobiasperson
    Dirkperson
    Paul Englertperson
    Andrei Masenkovperson
    IFPA World Championship (17)event
    Melbourne Silver Bowlvenue
    Fuldavenue

    high · Johannes: 'The best way to choose is to go with Raphael... you can shoot to the modes and already start it.' Martin observed 'majority of people were picking Raphael.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: TMNT contains 8 modes, 2+ multiballs (Turtle Power and Pizza-related), Team Up mini-wizard mode, combo system, and final battle endgame; right ramp is dangerous and comparable to Johnny Mnemonic left ramp difficulty

    high · Johannes detailed breakdown: 'eight modes in general... two multiballs... Team Up... Pizza Turtles... final battle... right ramp is pretty dangerous because it's like the left ramp on Johnny Mnemonic'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Paul Englert, approximately 13 years old, is an emerging German pinball prodigy who has won multiple Fulda tournaments against established top European players (Daniele, Robert Sata, Levente, Julio)

    high · Johannes: 'Paul Englert... he's already proved that he can play well on the big stage in Fulda... already won some tournaments in Fulda, also against players like Daniele and Robert Sata, Levente, Julio.'

  • ?

    community_signal: German pinball scene prioritizes social play and fun over competitive achievement; contrasts with North American competitive intensity; fewer major tournaments due to travel barriers to North America

    high · Johannes: 'The scene is a bit less competitive than the US... They just like playing... having drinks and staying up late... it's all about fun.' Jeff notes SPC events '90% in North America' making European travel difficult.

  • ?

    event_signal: IFPA 17 World Championship will be held in Germany; main venue is Freddy's with pre-tournaments planned in Fulda to accommodate large attendance and match tournament tradition

    medium · Johannes: 'It will be at Freddy's... we plan to do some pre-tournaments in Fulda.' Jeff references 'Tobias has done an amazing job of getting all kinds of big tournaments there.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Johannes identifies multiball management (cradle control, post-passing) as highest-skill expression; advocates for ball control and deliberate shot selection over 'playing on the fly'; cites Robert Sata and Daniele as models

    high · Johannes on skill development: 'shot accuracy you gain by playing a lot... rule knowledge... by talking with people... rest is all by playing and training a lot.' On control: 'always try to keep control over the ball because then you can aim specific shots.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Martin Robbins investing in production quality improvements including green screen setup; references Jack Danger's use of green screen as inspiration; expects to elevate stream aesthetic

    high · Martin: 'My greatest and most exciting purchase... I now have a green screen... I've seen Jack Danger use it before and it just elevates the look and feel of the stream.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Hosts struggle with Facebook platform changes affecting podcast promotion (inability to run polls, technical barriers); express frustration with modern app-based systems (pizza ordering apps) versus traditional phone-based interactions

    high · Jeff: 'We can't even do a freaking poll... We can barely speak. We can barely get a podcast out, so don't ask us to do anything technical.'

    • 6:09
    Yes. What are you going to do with your green screen? Superhero movies. I don't know. But obviously my streaming now on Melbourne Silver Bowl is much cleaner. I just say, if you are streaming and you could be bothered, get a green screen. I've seen Jack Danger use it before and it just elevates the look and feel of the stream. But I'm excited about it. The most excited person is actually my daughter. And my daughter said, oh, you can make it look like I'm meeting Harry Styles. She is obsessed with Harry Styles and One Direction. Who isn't? His hair, his voice. He's so dreamy. Anyway, oops. Is that my outside voice? Yeah. It's apparently an actor now. I don't know. Anyway, so green screen, guys. It's lots of fun. And I believe that was the secret of my success of getting to Somewhere Over the Rainbow Wizard Mode on Wizard of Oz for the second time. That's pretty cool. and especially when you can do it on stream too. I know how hard that is. Well, it is. Obviously, I was chatting away and some of the stuff I've had to edit out because it's got music. But, yeah, I know. But it's there if you go to Melbourne Silver Bowl. It's one of the highlights.
    7:25
    It's fun. It's not an easy wizard mode. There you go. It's not. For people not named Carl, I agree. Right.
    7:36
    Explain what you had to do. Oh, okay. So there are eight objectives. Oh God, let's see if I can remember them all. Eight objectives that you need to do to get to the wizard mode. You've got to kill the witch. Killing the witch in itself would be a wizard mode for most pinball machines. Well, certainly Bally Williams of the day. You've got to kill the witch. You've got to get to Munchkin multiball. You've got to get to Haunted Forest multiball. You've got to travel along the Yellow Brick Road 50 times.
    8:08
    You've got to get 10 Fireball Frenzy jackpots. You've got a complete Emerald City multiball. I can't remember how many that is right now. And the hardest is you've got to get a mega jackpot in Rescue Multiball, which is very difficult. And that's always the one. Whenever I've gotten seven out of the eight objectives, it's always Rescue Multiball is the one that I just don't get to. Doesn't the crystal ball mystery kind of screw you up in that? Well, it does because... Oh, actually, there you go. Crystal ball. Get to the fifth crystal ball mode, which is flip a frenzy. That's one of the eight objectives. Thank you for bringing that up. And, yes, so for those people that don't know, there are four stand-up targets on the left that spell ball, B-A-L-L. You get those down. It then lights the crystal ball, which is via the spinner on the left. there are four crystal ball modes which are designed to mess with you fuck you up um they are lights on so all the lights go on in a rainbow pattern it actually looks good but it's not so bad as long as you remember where you're at the second one is lights out same sort of thing all the lights go out so you just got to remember what you're up to the two that really shit me one is weak flippers because it just means it's very difficult for you to hit the ramp shot or really anything and the other one is no hold flippers so you put the flippers up they don't stay up and that one you just that's the one that messes with you the most because you just are in such a routine of holding the ball or cradling and it just doesn't do it and then when you get to the fifth one that's flipper frenzy and that's where they reverse the flippers so when you get those particularly no hold flippers or weak flippers and you're trying to do something like get the mega jackpot in Rescue Multiple, it just makes it so much more difficult. I'm impressed, though. That's not easy to do. And do it on stream when you're talking. Well done. I thought you were going to say, I'm really impressed. You know rules to a game. Well, you own the game. You better. Although I own some games I have no idea. I'm just starting to learn. Well, I own the games and I stream them. So I have to have conversations about the rules. So that's how I've got to know them. I still don't understand Horse of a Different Colour. If someone wants to explain that to me, that would be great. Ian Harrower listens. He has a Wizard of Oz. He knows it. Ian, Gamma Goat, shoot Marty a note. Yeah, go for it. So there you go. That was my week. Tell you what I would really love. I'd love a new pinball machine. Well, can you wait a week or two? Yeah. No. Oh, well. Trust me. It's going to be pretty good. How many do you think they're going to be in the month of September? I think there's going to be three pinball machines announced in September. Three. Okay. One from Stern. Yep. One from Jersey Jack. What's the third? Deep Root's already said that they're going to be showing the launch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And multiple machines maybe from Deep Root. Who knows?
    11:10
    It's going to be a big month in September for sure. Sure. And because we are so starved for any information because our lives are just so locked down, I think that's going to be massive. Well, what's it like there in Australia for distributorship? I know that it takes a long time for the cargo ships to come there and bring the crates of games and whatnot. But do the distributors have product to sell right now? Because I know in some parts of North America, games are hard to come by. Okay, well, let me ask you this question. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles When did people in the US Start getting those In their homes In their homes? It depends on what you ordered I know people who had the Limited edition or premiums A lot earlier than the pros I'm seeing people with pictures of their games How many weeks ago was that? Early June was when the game was announced I believe And I reckon it was probably Let's say a couple of weeks after that people were getting their machines. Okay. We got our pros this week, I believe. Really? For Turtles? Yep. Yep. Three days ago. That's good. But that's just showing you how much longer it takes for these machines to get here. It's usually about a six-week... So you're saying it's taking longer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it takes six weeks for them to actually get on the ship and send over here, get through customs. Anyway, so that was just the answer to your question, How long does it take? Six weeks just for shipping, longer than anybody else. I had a bunch of guys in my pinball league tell me that how difficult it is to buy new in-box pinball machines, depending on where you are. So you're purposely hearing me not say any names of any distributors because I'm only reporting this secondhand, and I would love for people to say, hey, Jeff, Marty, Final Round listeners, we've got blah, blah, blah games. There's tons in stock right now. call us let me know we'll be glad to share that on our facebook page uh although with technology this week and facebook changing and the way i can't use a pizza app i don't know how well it's gonna come across we can't even do a freaking poll we'll talk about that in a bit we can barely speak we can barely get a podcast out so don't ask us to do anything technical listen i'm excited about our guest yeah for sure that aside you may have sensed i'm a little grumpy yeah sure you may have sensed that it's a no-fuckery show.
    13:40
    Although, we have to have a little bit of fun, don't we? All right. I am excited about our next guest, who is a former number one player in the world. He still, I believe, don't know this to be true, sleeps with the lights on. I'm only saying that because he's a young guy. I'm assuming that. Although he has gone off to post-secondary school. Shall we bring him on? Yeah, let's do it. It is time for our very special interview. And just to put things into perspective, here's how we had to do it. It is right now, Monday, August 24th, 9.30 a.m. for yours truly. I had to wake up early. It is 11.30 in Melbourne. See, I'm not even awake yet.
    14:23
    And good chance Marty's probably into the bag. And in, I assume, Munich, Germany or somewhere in Germany, Johannes Ostermeyer, the former number one player in the world, but current IFPA world champion. And he joins us right now. Hello, Johannes. Hello, Jeff. Hello, Martin. So, look, obviously Jeff just introduced you as former number one. How important is it to you to be number one? Does it matter or not? You know, I've always wanted to be number one. But since I've reached that spot, it is like, well, history, it is like past. And now I'm just looking forward to playing and competing with all the best players in the world. And the ranking, I don't think it's that important to me. I just want to play well, to have some nice battles against other players. And if I'm ranked first, second, third, fourth, whatever, I don't think it's too important to me. Subtle shots there. Take that, Eric Stone and Raymond Davidson. Johannes is coming at you. He's playing a softball. When you least expect it, bam, bam, bam. He's coming back for you. We said that you are the current defending IFPA World Champion, and that's actually where you and I got to meet a couple years ago. It was IFPA 15 just outside Toronto. The world's best were there. I somehow managed to get in. Martin, were you there? I can't remember if you were there.
    15:52
    Hmm. You know I couldn't make it. Okay, all right. I know Grant Stevens was there. I'm not surprised. A fantastic player. But anyway, I'm sure sometime you will get there. The point is, Johannes and I have been kind of WhatsAppping in the two years that has transpired since then. And I mentioned that Martin, you know, it's 11.30 late at night there, and good chance you've had one or two. the last call i got from johannes johannes uh was partaking in an early october fest i believe because he was a little smashed uh what was that all about johannes that was funny as heck ah you know you know um i was having some drinks in munich and i think it was two weeks ago wasn't it yep um yeah you know that voice message was a bit maybe confusing i won't play it but there was a cavalcade of women involved as well. It sounded like you were having fun. Yeah, we were having fun. You know, that was actually my former English teacher, and she was talking quite good English, though. And then I came aside, and okay, it was a difference between my English and hers. But nevertheless, it's, yeah, we were having a lot of fun. So, Johannes, I'm really keen to know what's led you to be such a good player now. You're, I believe, currently 18. So, when did it all start and what keeps you excited about playing and getting better? Well, it all started when I was four years old, back in 2006, when my father bought the first machine. And I think back then, all the lights were very funny to me. and now it's more about the rules and strategies and whatever. But I think what keeps me playing and trying to get better is the competing with other players to always be the best, not talking about the rankings, but about the style of playing. And this is also something I wanted to improve in Florida this year, but as we all know, it has been postponed. and I wanted to compete like with Raymond once again, with Keith and all the other Americans that you don't see too much in Europe. So both Jeff and I have watched you playing on the JDL stream and what I liked, maybe I shouldn't, but I like to pigeonhole players and I did ask Raymond Davidson what do you think he's known for, whether it's shot accuracy, rules knowledge, or recovery skills. And I was looking at you, player, and I was trying to work out what it is. And I have to say, and it pains me to say, you are actually really good at all of it. And in particular, I've noticed that your ability to manage multi-ball is absolutely next world. Being able to pick your shots, know the rules, but also cradle the balls and post-pass whilst you're in multiball, is that something that you trained to be like or has that just been a natural evolution for you? So you mean the multiball? Just being able to do it all. Like the skills that you've got now, was that something that you had to work at or is it just because you've been playing a lot? I think it is because I've been playing a lot because, you know, as I've just said, I've started playing with four years, so I'm playing for 14 years now. And I think it was all a process because I been watching a lot for example other good players in Europe like Daniele and Robert Sata especially Robert Sata And I think this shot accuracy you gain by playing a lot and by training a lot but not specifically training like okay, I need to get this shot, and I tried five times, ten times, but just by playing. And the rule knowledge I think you gain by also talking with people about the game, not only watching streams and gameplays, but also changing opinions and strategies. and the rest, yeah, as I've said, I think it's all by playing and training a lot and by playing in general. Okay, but you came up to a new game pretty much for you, I assume. I don't know how much time you had had on Turtles before, but that's for a lot of us a new game. How do you approach something like that? I mean, did you get some advice from Tobias or some other people? It's very difficult and sometimes I'm a little anxious too when I go up to a new game because I feel like I'm at a major disadvantage. How do you attack something like that? Actually, I did get some advice by Dirk from Pinball Universe because he knew that game already. He's been playing that game for, I think, three or four weeks, and he knew some of the rules. So that was one step to get to know the game, and another step was to just play. As I've already said, I also learned the rules by playing and by investigating the game and also to just play the multiple and see where are the points, to just play a mode and to figure out what is the best mode. And, you know, the basic rules, they are simply explained by just combining the two ramps for lighting the mode and you have two multiples I know about, the turtle power and the other one with the pizza. you have also that button smashing like in Star Wars oh good, yay Jeff loves button mashing it is collecting 40 pizza slices and yeah, I think I learned the best way by just playing it and by finding out what is the best strategy myself so when you're in a tournament and you've got I don't know whether you do whether you've got a set way that you're going to play do you stick with that or do you adapt your your play not just necessarily your play style but what you're going for on the fly based on the situation in general with other games with all the games or with new games with all games but uh let's say all games but take out the old ones because there's not really a lot to do in them yeah i know okay yeah basically i always have a strategy on mind and I try to stick with it. If there is anything different that can happen, I will adapt myself because actually it is quite, well, stupid to stick with your strategy if you have other things running. And yeah, I think I would adapt myself if I have other possibilities to collect a lot of points. I want to talk about different games, but we'll stick on Turtles for a second. I noticed the majority of people were picking Raphael versus other characters. and give us what you've learned so far on Turtles after a day of playing. Yeah, well, as I've already said, you have two ramps, the left ramp and the right ramp, which have yellow arrows to light the mode. You have eight modes in general and you have a mini wizard mode after only starting four of the modes, which is called Team Up. You have two multiples that I know about. You have the turtle power that you can start directly after picking Donatello. Donatello, I think it's called like this. It's the purple one. You can start this turtle power multiple by shooting the right ramp, but it's not giving you a lot of points. It's just for, yeah, getting a feeling for the game. And you have another multiple, which is called Pizza Turtles something, which is on the right side of the left ramp, where you can also start the episodes, the modes. and if you have finished all eight modes you have reached the final battle where you have different stages but we didn't reach a lot of stages and you have also to collect some other things like combos to reach the final final but we didn't reach it so I can't tell you a lot about it that's basically the basic rules as you've mentioned you can choose between four characters, four turtles and I think the best way to choose is to go with Raphael, yeah because you have the modes directly lit, you can shoot to the modes I guess and already start it. Jeff have you played Turtles yet? There are so many games in 2020 because of COVID-19 I haven't played, I haven't touched it I'm dying to though. No because I haven't played it either they're only just in the country now you've obviously you get to play a lot of games and you are playing a lot of different machines from all different eras how do you think this compares? do you think it's a good game? it is hard to say because I don't think you can compare it with like Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park or Batman right now at the moment but if we wait a bit more and we have some more updates some new codes it can become a pretty nice game because I like the flow. You can, for example, reach the left upper flipper by hitting the right ramp or by hitting the right loop. And it is a pretty quick game but nevertheless the rules right now I don't think you can compare it with other games like I've mentioned like Jurassic Park or Iron Maiden. But if you wait a bit more I think it can become a really, really great game. Well, I guess because it's a new machine and obviously fresh rubbers, fresh playfield, so it's going to play really fast. I've heard that it is a pretty tough game. Would you say that just from the layout? Yeah, you know that right ramp is pretty dangerous because it's like the left ramp on Johnny McManick and it can be tough. Even though if you have good control and you always try to keep the control, you can play it quite nicely, I think. So you mentioned some other games. I want to compare other eras too, because with other eras, you have different shots. I mean, you kind of seem to be very dialed in on the newer Stern games. But when you go to a different game, maybe it's a Gottlieb, maybe it's an EM, maybe it's something with zipper flippers or lightning flippers. Is there any suggestion you can give to some players that want to achieve some great success? When you go from different games, as you have to in these tournaments, any advice you have with different rubbers and the size of flippers?
    26:50
    I guess what's the most important thing is to just adapt yourself to every machine. You can't just say, okay, I don't like Godleafs. I don't play well on Godleafs. That's the wrong opinion about the game. And one advice I can give is just always try to keep the control over the ball because then you can aim specific shots, difficult shots, and you don't have to play on the fly. There are many players that have big success by playing like this, like Andrei Masenkov is a player that always is playing on the fly, and he has success. But I think most players would play better if they kept more control over the balls. And this is my advice to everyone who's trying to get better. Do you prefer the modern era of games or do you like the older style as well? I like the older style as well, but I usually prefer the modern, the stirring, actually. Is that probably because you've played more of them? Yeah, kind of. And also because the rules are deeper and it's harder. It's a bigger challenge for me to reach, for example, the wizard mode. Okay. Do you have access in Munich to all areas of machines? So in Australia, in Melbourne, where I am, there's only really sterns probably from the last 10 years out on location and older machines in private collections. Is that the same case over there? Well, we have some machines in our basement. and actually we have kind of all areas in our basement. What have you got?
    28:28
    Oh, different machines. Like from Stern, we got Iron Maiden, which I've won the world championships. We have Batman. We have also some Barley Williams, like Creature, Medieval Madness, Indiana Jones. Some other bit older Sterns like Shrek and Lord of the Rings, ACDC. And from the classic area, we have like Wizard, Fireball, the first one, Captain Fantastic, and also like Matsuhari, Fathom, and stuff like that. So we have basically all areas, but we don't have any Gottliebs.
    29:08
    Man, Bruce Nightingale is reaching Germany too, I guess, with his love for Gottliebs. But that's funny because you just said you can't approach a game like, oh, I don't like Gottliebs. Was there a hidden message in there that maybe you're not a big fan? Or is it just the scoring? What is it with you? And why can't you? There's some good Gottliebs out there. Yeah, it could be. But the thing is I've never played too much of the Gottliebs. So I don't think in Germany we have lots of Gottliebs standing around in tournaments. We have some of them in Seligenstadt. But nevertheless, I've played too less to enjoy them. you know hold on I'm just making a note here IFPA 17 get some Gottliebs quickly ASAP so what is the pinball scene like over there is it very social do you have lots of mates and tournaments yeah actually as many of you should know we have this tournament in Fulda or we used to have and I do have lots of mates, lots of good friends in the scene, although I think the scene is a bit less competitive than, for example, the scene in the US. We have lots of players who just go to tournaments in order to have a lot of fun, which is great. I love it. And this is also me. But if I play, for example, internationally, I usually go to the tournaments also to have fun, but also to play well and to compete with other players. And I think the scene in Germany is a bit different talking about competitive pinball. They just like playing. They just like having some drinks and staying up late. And yeah, it's all about fun. We do have some players that like competitive pinball and that also travel around for competing with other players for participating in big tournaments. I mentioned this to Dina and Jim Lindsay just recently on Pinball Profile about I was planning on coming to Germany this summer. That's been scrapped. I'm planning on coming there next summer. If not then, then hopefully the year after, as you mentioned, when the IFPA World Championship is going to be there at, it's not at Bulls and Balls. It'll be at Freddy's, I believe. It will be at Freddy's, but I think, I don't want to say anything wrong, but we plan to do some pre-tournaments in Fulda. Oh, for sure, because of the size of that wonderful facility. And there's just going to be, I mean, that's going to be one heck of a week. Martin, you should see the tournaments that they have there. Tobias has done an amazing job of getting all kinds of big tournaments there. In fact, a lot of people in the competitive world talk about the whopper farms that Germany may have. But there's a good reason for that, because it's not as easy to travel to North America where a lot of the big tournaments are, especially when you look at something like the Stern Pro Circuit. The big, big, big events are, for the most part, 90% in North America. So Germany's done things like Ho Ho Ho and the Pinball Olympics and other events there. And you get to see these great players. I mean, you're a young guy at 18. How about that Paul Englert? Yeah, it's a very good player. Let's see, 13? 13, 14, maybe 12, I don't know. The thing is, he's already proved that he can play well on the big stage in Fulda. He has already won some tournaments in Fulda, also against players like Daniele and Robert Sata, Levente, Julio, and all the great players in Europe. You always have to keep in mind that he's 13 years old. until now he hasn't won a real big tournament internationally, like some Dutch pinball tournaments, like Hungarian, Belgian. He was in the final, I think, in the Belgian Open. He came third, I think. But this is something he still has to do, and he still has to maybe work on his temper, which is a thing that you can see on the streams. But he has improved, definitely. Oh, obviously. That's going to come with maturity, right? And experience. Yeah, absolutely. So you, in November, start school. And last time we talked, it was languages you're going to be attacking in school, which would be fantastic, especially for somebody who travels around like you do. And I remember the IFPA 17 was going to be in May in Florida, and you had a special exemption because you were supposed to write your exams. You were going to be allowed to write your exams early. Now that you're in post-secondary school, is school going to conflict with some of these big tournaments or any tournaments for that matter? Actually, I don't know because I'm starting in November, as you've said, in university in Munich. And if I'm having exams, I don't know if you can combine playing tournaments and learning, studying for those exams. But I guess it's a bit different than school because in university you have more spare time to spend during the semester. And you just have to figure out when you can study and when you can play tournaments. But I hope I will be able to combine it very well, of course. Well, if you need any exemptions, you know, Aunt Becky from Full House may be able to write you a letter to get those exams to happen. Too soon? Yeah.
    34:49
    Jeff, terrible. Poor thing. I think about the children that have been brought into that. But if you couldn't play pinball because you had to study or whatever, would you be constantly thinking about the fact that you're not playing pinball or would it be just like, oh, well, I'll get back to it at some stage? I think it would be like, I will get back. Because studying is also a good thing. You're making progress through your career or whatever. and in the end you can play lots of tournaments in the future and there will be other chances. You know, Pimbro is not the most important thing in the world. How dare you. Are you buying that, Martin, for one second? No, not for a second.
    35:35
    Yeah, I'm telling the truth. Okay, here's something that, you know, Keith Elwin was on the program a few weeks ago and we were talking about younger players and I know you're looking forward to playing Keith and that will probably be in Florida when IFPA 17 finally happens. When he was talking about younger players, they have so much experience, so much great rules knowledge, so much practice, like yourself. But I mentioned that at a certain age, and you're at that age, other things in life come into play, whether it be university schooling, relationships, having a wobbly or two, things that young people like to do, and pinball sometimes gets put on the back burner. That's not going to happen with you, is it? I don't think so, no, because I don't see a reason in not playing tournaments because it's so much fun to me and I just like to compete. I like to see all the people, all my friends all over the world. And yeah, why postponing? Like why putting pinball on second stage? Do you look forward to new releases of machines? So I guess my question is, are you also a pinball enthusiast as a hobbyist as well as a competitor? Yes, sure. But I'm not the guy that's watching streams over streams and videos over videos to get to know all the new machines, all the new games. I'm rather, as I've already mentioned, the guy that's playing the machine and learning by playing. Yeah, you don't watch the streams. You just listen to this podcast for your information. I get that, Johan. I understand. A lot of the great players do, yeah. Yeah, sure. That's all you need.
    37:20
    Stamp that one. Let's get that as an endorsement quickly, Martin. There's a sound bite. When we talk about streams, a lot of people saw you for the first time, maybe outside of the competitive world, on one of the most famous streams of all time. And it was, again, JDL Pinball. and it was when you beat Daniele in the IFPA World Championship a year ago in Italy. That is the game and the match for all ages. Yep. I already love Bram Stoker's Dracula. It went to a whole new level to see what the two of you did, both of you. I mean, it was a shame there was a loser there, but the back and forth, the comeback of the century. Martin alluded to your incredible juggling of multi-balls and being able to transfer in multi-ball and make the shots. I know I've seen that video at least 10 times. How about you, Johannes? A couple of times, definitely.
    38:13
    And it's not getting worse. What do you mean? Yeah, by watching it, it's not getting worse. It's not getting more boring, you know? Oh, okay. I get that. At what stage did you feel you had it? Actually, I think when Zach touched me on my shoulder and all the people were shouting around. So I think actually really at this point. Well, people were losing their mind. I mean, even the commentators, Escher was there and Raymond, they were just going crazy. How do you block all that out when you're playing because you're not wearing headphones? I mean, are you also involved in that kind of excitement but still have to maintain control? I think I'm just very focused when I'm playing, and I don't listen to other people talking about me or next to me, and I think that I'm focused. You can also see when I'm playing on my face expression. Yeah, I guess I can block that out pretty well. I can't, and I know Jeff can't, because that's why we use headphones. Yeah, I never use headphones. No, if you don't have to, then you have got… an advantage of those like us that do because you can hear everything that the machine is telling you as well as watching it whereas we have to block that out But it I don know it the better of two evils I guess is probably the best way to say it, for us, because all the noise around me I find really distracting, so I figure if I block that out, at least I can see the game, and that's going to be better for me. I wish I didn't have to. Yeah, no, I think I can block that out. When you play in Germany, I think I heard Jim Lindsay talk about it. Sometimes at Bowls and Balls, the music will be cranked and whatnot. And I've been in different leagues, different tournaments, where the music is blaring or there's people talking. And I've tried to block that out. And I get better the more I hear it. But is that the case in Germany? There's always this kind of loud atmosphere. And maybe that's why you're so in control is because you can block that out. Yeah, maybe. Usually in tournaments, in Folder, for example, there is music playing. There is a lot of noise by all the machines that are running. Yeah, by experience, you get better to block that out. Do you know what your next tournament or event is going to be? And I know with IFPA being kind of shut down right now, is it important for you to still play tournaments even though they're just for fun, so to speak? Well, during these times, the most important thing is to stay healthy and to, yeah, well, social distance. So the big tournaments won't take place in the near future. So I can't tell when my next tournament is going to be. I can imagine meeting some people all over Germany, maybe Austria, maybe Switzerland, but not for big tournaments, but for small get-togethers, for small playing pinball and having some good time. And yeah, maybe in September, October, I will meet some good friends off the pinball scene. But yeah, well, there won't be big tournaments in the future. Have they made any changes to how the school year will begin and any kind of social distancing? Or is it just everyone's on campus? No, I think every lecture is going to be online. So there won't be any campus days. That's sad to me, Martin, because that's such a great experience to, you know, that frosh week, as we call it here in North America. I don't know what it is there for you, but just that kind of excitement for the freshmen to enjoy, you know, that campus experience. And, I mean, it'll come back once everyone gets back there. It's just, you know, that's a real achievement to make it to university and the excitement that comes with it. But it's delayed, but it'll happen, Johannes. Yeah, I'm sure. Well, how strict are the restrictions there? Like we've mentioned a few times that here in Australia, well, particularly where I am, we're in stage four lockdown, which means I can only leave the house once a day either to do exercise.
    42:28
    I know how funny that sounds. Or to go shopping, which is what I do. How strict is it over there? Like, can you leave the house? Can you go and visit people? You can, yeah. It's not that strict, I would say. we do have higher numbers. We get some higher numbers of COVID cases, but we don't have a lot of deaths right now. And I think, therefore, the restrictions are not that bad or hard for us. You can leave the house, you can meet people, but only about, I think it's restricted to 10 people you can meet, basically. Has anybody been putting on pinball tournaments at all?
    43:11
    No, not really. That weekend I spent in FOLDA was the first pinball experience for me for almost the whole year because I had stress with my school graduation and stuff like that. And after I've graduated, it was like June, July, and so in August, it was the first time to see some pinball polls. It's actually funny, I'm looking at your profile on IFPA and all your results on your page not a single 2020 there No, my last tournament was the Ho Ho Ho in December Wow, that says it all doesn't it and we're in August so wow, the whole year wiped out Yeah, it's been a long time Johannes, here's some perspective for you Should this sadly, and I hope this doesn't happen continue for another couple years. As those IFPA rankings diminish,
    44:11
    yours truly has 11 events in 2020. I will pass Johannes as the better pinball player. I just want you to put that fear into you right now. I'm coming for you, kid.
    44:30
    Screw languages. You'll change your major and you'll find a vaccine so that doesn't happen, right? Yeah, would be great. I kind of get the impression that he doesn't really care about where you're ranked, Jeff. I'm just reading between the lines. Well, I know somebody who doesn't because, I mean, my neck would be sore if I was in Australia just looking up at all those people way above Martin. See, here's what's happened, Johannes, and I talked about being young and losing interest in playing competitive. Somebody, not going to mention any names, one of the hosts on this show who doesn't play a lot of tournaments, has decided to avoid playing tournaments, more organizing them, which he does a great job at, and he's streaming and whatnot. But he has gotten away from that pinball competitiveness. I don't know why. I assume several defeats. I'm just guessing.
    45:26
    Was it your tournament that was the last one? Was it? It could have been. No, because you were supposed to play it, and you're like, no, I'm just going to stream. You obviously saw the competition level when I concerned for your health. No, I just thought, you know what? You've come all the way over. I might as well just let you win. So I didn't feel bad for all the money and outlay of you coming over here. So, oh, my God, if we have to mention you winning that tournament one more time.
    45:52
    Johannes, you know what it's like winning tournaments. You forget. There's so many, you just forget. Oh, yeah, I guess I won that one. You forget about it, right?
    45:59
    Where are you ranked, Jeff? In a couple of years, way ahead of Johannes. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, well, within three years, there won't be any points. We'll be tied at least. Yay. I don't know. It doesn't matter. The point is we have another incredible guest here. It's so nice that you joined us. I hope everything goes well in Germany, Johannes, and especially with school. Great to see you on the stream again, and hopefully we can see more of that. Congratulations to everybody there in Germany, Tobias, and everyone putting on wonderful events. I will see you soon. we will all be healthy and uh it's always a treat and i look forward to it good to meet you me too thank you for for having me here all right buddy i'll feed a scene i'll feed a zint uh martin see ya see you mate yeah you have to translate for martin he has no idea he thought you sneezed oh stop it thanks buddy all right so there you go there was johanna's amazing to talk to and and i love the fact that we get to speak to people from all around the world even at really weird times of the day and night because obviously getting us all three together different areas of the world was was interesting um but what did we learn jeff i think what we learned is you're full of shit because we were recording this before we actually talked to johannes that's what we learned is we can make this seamless and people don't understand what's going on behind the scenes until jeff gives it away what did we learn about johannes well he's a fine young man learning languages great skill set as we saw on jdl pinball that we did see before we talked to johannes although you're hearing this and sounds like we talked to him just a while ago trust me we haven't talked to him yet he can come on and tell us to go f ourselves and yeah correct The point is, it's a great skill set. We saw it. Here's the thing. Here's Turtles. Here you go, Johannes. You've never really played the game, and how quickly he can adapt. And I saw that firsthand in Toronto at IFPA 15 at some of the pre-events. When you're good, man, if you get on a game and play it two, three times, you can do anything. And that's what I've learned about these great players. And I see it a lot at the, again, we're going to use that word that is a word of the past, tournaments. when you go to these pump and dump tournaments and you see a really good player, just get the feel of it. Where are the tilts? Where are the shots? And then by about game three or four or five, they just blow it up because they know where the shots are. They know the nudges. It's just incredible. And that's what Johannes is. I sort of mentioned this about when people ask, how do you become a good player? I don't know why they're asking me, but I'm sure people ask because you know people. More than because I know people. But we are obviously of a certain generation. You're obviously far older than I am. We have played for years and years and years and years a certain way. For us to become a good player these days, we've had to completely unlearn how we used to play games and play it in a different style. But every once in a while, it still creeps back in, just the old style of play. these younger players only learn on the new style of play so i think that they have i think they've got an advantage because they're obviously more more youthful and obviously their faculties are working a lot better than ours but i think they've got the ability to adapt a lot quicker than we do because we are still battling with the old and the new there you go i've said it good analogy it's like learning to drive they tell you look do it the right way put your hands on 10 to 2 make sure you check your mirrors do all the right things so you don't get into the bad habits we have so many bad habits and just you're right when we were his age we weren't bounce passing we weren't drop catching we weren't cradling up the only thing i think i was doing at that age was definitely the nudging yeah yeah probably a bit of it i don't think i ever was a bit of a nudger but back in our day it was the ball comes to the flip as you flip it away that was it i remember years ago when I was playing and the ball would be in between the slings and I would alternate the flipper depending on where the slings were for no reason other than I thought, okay, maybe it will come down really quickly or I've had experience where that saved me before, but I don't really remember as they bounce along those bottom slippers in your perfect Italian bottom kind of layout, I don't remember kind of nudging to get the ball out of that rhythm, which is eventually going to shoot it to the out lanes, but that's commonplace now. I don't think I was nudging so much to, if it was going towards the out lane, I would just kind of flip the coin and see where it's going to go. More times than not, it will go in the out lane. Now you nudge to get it out of there so you don't have to make the choice between in lane, out lane. Yeah, I guess the difference for me was if you're in danger, you would nudge. These days, you nudge before you're going to get in danger so you don't get in danger. But I remember back in the day, back in our day, Jeff, nudging was when the balls are in the pops, hey, shake the machine. That's what you would do. You'd shake the machine when it was in the pops. I don't know whether that actually does anything. What about when we were younger? I mean, think about it. 30 years ago, were we invested in knowing what the rules were? No. You played Medieval Madness. All you did was bash the castle. No, not even then. For me, like medieval madness, just get to multiball. And for me, it was just get to, I don't even know what it's called, but it's the multiball that goes via the, just to the left of the castle entrance. And that's kind of what it was back in our day. And my first multiball game I ever played was Firepower, right? And you effectively got to multiball and that was it. And so for years after, for me, it was always, okay, well, you just get to multiball and that's the game. not realizing that there's just this code underneath it, outside it, around it. I just wasn't aware of. That's funny because even with Attack from Mars, even with Medieval Madness, because the toys were so great, that was all I did was just bash, which is crazy to think of now. I want to destroy the saucers in Attack from Mars. I want to get all those cities done. Medieval Madness, I want to get to all five of the castles done. I didn't even care really about the points. It was just about that easy shot. I knew where the shot was on both flippers. Easy enough to do on Attack from Mars. The trick was surviving the visor, right? I thought. Yeah, for sure. But the first game I really kind of cared about, okay, multi-ball is pretty cool. I didn't care at all about multi-ball in Attack from Mars. A harder shot, if you've got to get it up and around, and if it's on a harder setting. I didn't care about it on Medieval Madness, except for the madness aspects. You know, maybe Joust Madness or things like that. but not that shot to the left of the castle. No, I know. I now know that it's not worth a lot of points, and it's a pretty dangerous shot as well. I never went for it. No, but the multi-ball I would go for consistently on the older games that I fell in love with was Cactus Canyon. Okay. Did you get much time on that? I have had quite a lot of time on Cactus Canyon. Yeah, it's just a fun multi-ball, great call-outs. God, they should remake that. Wow, I wonder if that's going to be... That could be the fourth one in September. Yeah, it could be. A lot of people think it's going to be later, like October, November. Yeah. We have no inside knowledge. Before we go any further, it's time for our sponsor of the week. Jeff, are you looking for a getaway during these troubled times? I think we all could use an escape. I'm sure like many people, after six months, our better halves are getting a little sick of us. But Marty, we can't really travel right now. Well, have I got something for you. It's the new Final Round Dog House. But what if you don't have a dog? Doesn't matter. This dog house is perfect for those times when you slip up and put your foot in your mouth. Like you asked your wife, is she putting on a little weight? Or remember when your spouse asked you, who's that new friend of yours on Facebook? Oh, that's just my old high school sweetheart. The new Final Round Dog House is just the place for you. It comes complete with no shower, ticks and fleas, and a toilet with the seat permanently in the upright position. Plus, act now and we'll throw in no hope of redemption or forgiveness. Think about the next time your partner asks you, do you know where the money went in our bank account? Oh, I just bought another pinball machine. Get the final round doghouse today. While you're still allowed on your property.
    54:46
    We had a bit of a discussion about the crap movie great pinball battle. And it was Shadow vs. Congo. and really we put it to our Facebook community because I really couldn't decide on which one I would prefer over the other and now that we've had a lot of comments which I would love for you to read out some Jeff the summary for me is the way I've been thinking about it I love the gameplay of Congo and the layout much better than Shadow but I prefer Shadow's rules to Congo which again makes it difficult to decide which one you like i'm the exact same way give me congo in a tournament give me shadow for fun which is the one that's going to be the deciding factor and we had several several comments in fact we had shows that commented about our comments yep yep yep very meta but that's that's the power of final round Okay. So, one of the first ones. This is from our good friend Robert Byers. He says, I haven't seen either movie. However, we'll go Congo. Lots of satisfying shots, and the monkey reminds me of T.O.L.S.
    56:05
    All right. A little tit for tat. I've got something for you, in fact. So, yeah. So, pretty accurate comments so far. Yeah. That's funny you should say that, because I heard a great little comment about it. It was not for Congo. here's what they said i did listen to a final round episode 14 where you had a little chat about me that was very sweet actually i just want to say before we get into this that jeff teolis has like the most soothing voice in podcasting don't don't strike his ego it's already so fucking that is true it's it is so beautiful though it's such a good voice marty's pretty good as well but like jeff could talk me to sleep in a in a good way you're lucky you added in a good way you'd be getting hype mouth from Jeff Teolis immediately exactly no seriously I find it really calming anyway I love listening to those two I think they're really good together so there's a vote for Shadow and a vote for Jeff over Marty so maybe we can pick up the slack and offer something to the show she said that you put her to sleep in a good way no I don't think there are good ways that somebody could put them to sleep You know, maybe a bit of chloroform. Marty, we made it clear at the start of this program there'll be no fuckery. All right, that is an endorsement for Teolas.
    57:25
    I'll tell you, let me say two things about your voice. One thing that is important. Because your voice is so, I want to say high-pitched and nasally, it makes it hard for people to listen to at a higher speed, so they have to listen at one speed, which really helps.
    57:41
    Are you saying that? Because that was actual genuine feedback that we got on head-to-head. Did you remember that? I was the one who wrote it.
    57:54
    Anyway, the second thing, and this kills me. My wife and I, we were listening to Jesse Jay's Pinball Adventure as we were driving up north. That came on. I laughed my head off and laughed her head off. And then she said, hmm, I really like Martin's voice, actually. I'm like, yeah, but not more than me. And she's like, hmm. Yeah, people love Aussie accents. I remember when we first started Head to Head, Bruce from the Slam Tilt podcast, his wife Kat often mentioned how much she loved our voices. So, you know, it appeals to some people. I know, but the ratio of great voice to lousy personality, there's such a gap there, though. Yeah, it's massive. It hurts the Australian. It is massive for you. John Cosson, I rest my case.
    58:43
    Good point. Well made. Okay, so we've got to vote for Shadow. We've got to vote for Congo. What are some of the other comments we've been seeing? Congo for the layout. Used to hate Shadow for being so brutal and maybe still hold a grudge. Love both, though. That's from Scott Elliott. There's a vote for Congo. I'll give you another vote for Congo versus Shadow. We talked about what you would like as far as playing in a tournament. We both agreed it was Congo. We thought Shadow was more fun and the modes and everything. If I were to operate one or even own one at home I would rather have Congo for less things to go wrong because there are a lot of problems and I seen it unfortunately on some locations some homes whatnot The diverters in shadow can be a pain in the butt so that would be a vote for Congo Yeah, okay. I've not obviously operated either, so Ryan C has, so maybe he could tell us.
    59:36
    What would earn more money on location, Congo or shadow? I would think they're about the same as far as theme appeal, right? I mean, unless you're like the biggest Tim Curry fan ever, you know. Well, here's another interesting vote. How dare you call those crap movies? That was from a moto.
    59:55
    That's so funny. I've got to bring that up to her. She's coming on Pinball Profile in a couple weeks. That's good. Okay. Cool. Chuck Webster, Congo for the win. Skillfire, the best and unique mode in pinball. It almost feels like a mini wizard mode when you get to it. Flow in Congo is far superior overall. Both great games. What is Skillfire mode? Why can't I think of that?
    60:16
    I've not been to it, and everyone mentions that this skillfire mode is meant to be... It's kind of like they wish that was the wizard mode. It is the best mode in this game. I've not been to it. I've not seen it, so I don't know. But I did stream it at Eric's place, and people in chat were saying, get the skillfire, get the skillfire. I was like, okay, we'll try. But we never did. Brian Cosner. Cos comes out and says, Shadow the better layout. loves the diverters, upper playfield. The upper playfield in Shadow is way better than the lower playfield in Congo. There's no comparison. Oh, no doubt, no doubt, no doubt, no doubt. Definitely needs a different art package. Yeah, art's not exactly the greatest on Shadow. Okay, all right. That's a vote for Shadow. So here's another Congo one. Okay, this is from our good friend Ian Harawa, GammaGoat. He says, not even a debate for me. Congo. Why? Kinetic satisfaction. Congo, left ramp is easy, but with the diverter, It doesn't get boring because it forces you into different situations. The Great Hallway flows perfectly timing-wise to the upper flipper shots. Right Ramp has an interesting path through the pops and around the volcano, which is fun. I always say Congo is the best fun house. Shadow, the left side, is too close to the flippers because of the upper playfield. Shot paths are uninspired. Left Ramp has the switch problem. Karn Hole is awful. Yep, I can tell you now, I've not played a Shadow where you consistently get into the Karn Hole. He says, rules, both have choice, which is good. I find Kongo is more situational and has risk reward. Choice on Shadow tends to be just about what you can execute, not what is best risk reward. Shadow has some good things like one of the better video modes, but Kongo is better. Sound, hippos, need I say more. Art, both are completely forgettable. Toys, Shadow wins here easily, but toys are fun the first couple of plays and they don't matter. Theme, Shadow ruined a radio series I loved. Congo only ruined a book by an author I like, but a book I never read. There you go. Okay. It's my given right to make sure whenever Ian says something, I counterpoint with it. I have to do it as my pinball nemesis and friend. Here's why Shadow's better, Ian. In one example, have you ever played a Stern Pro Circuit event at the Congo? No. But you've played at the Sanctum several times, in fact. a game so popular they named a facility after the game and now it's part of the stern pro circuit the 24-hour challenge at the sanctum from the shadow by the way at the sanctum they even have a bounty if anybody gets to the sanctum during that tournament they give some huge award too so again they don't really go out of their way for anything for congo sorry well here's one more for Shadow, and this is from Brian Schliebs. Hey, Boxy. He says, Shadow for me, tough to master, especially at the Rise's Dirty Dungeon, but very satisfying. Hitting the left loop slash inner loop combo and the left ramp. Upper novelty playfield and ramp diverters. What more could you need? An all-time favorite for me. And he's right in mentioning Ryan's Shadow is set up so tough. Yeah, it is tough. I mean, I had success at it. There was an event there in January.
    63:32
    We don't need to talk about it. The point is, you know, we've talked enough about it. I mean, it's already established by our listeners that I am the better voice on the podcast. That's a given. And we've proven time and time again that I am perhaps statistically Australia's greatest pinball player ever. Let's just move on. We're talking about Shadow. We're talking about Congo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many whoppers did you get for that? A lot. And by the way, with COVID-19, that's going to put me to the number one player in the world. backseat Johannes, alright? Because I got a number one.
    64:06
    So, okay, here we go. It's choice time. Do I get a Congo or do I get a Shadow? I'm going to go Shadow. I would get a Shadow I think because I would get more longevity out of it. I think with Congo, obviously besides Killfire, I think I've seen and done enough on Congo, but I still have a lot to explore with Shadow. There you go. Shadow is the one I'm picking too. To me, if we were asking which of these two were more underrated, 1,000% it's Congo. Yeah, for sure. Shadow is considered a great game. When you talk about Brian Eddy's first three games, Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, and The Shadow, three masterpieces. I don't know how many people say Congo is a masterpiece. I know everybody says it's extremely fun, underrated, maybe even underpriced, But the shadow, you can't say that. People hold that in high regard. It goes for a lot of money. Joe Cherovino talked about how the magnet can kind of wreck the play field and whatnot, and I guess that's true. But there's just more to do in shadow. I think I would have more fun and more difficult shots. Watching Bowen's tutorial on that is something, because he talks about, I believe, three different ways you can play that game. And they're all great point generators. You know, getting into con multiball over and over again. Doing that loop shot is extremely difficult, and that's where the great players play. It's tough to do because it's kind of a blind shot. You have to time when you shoot it around the left orbit when it's going to be on that upper right flipper because you don't have much time to see it and shoot it. It's a timing thing. So much more difficult, great rewards there. I'm also on Team Shadow, although these are just our opinions. We have actually yet to put it to a vote. We should put it on a poll on Facebook. Can we do that? thanks facebook he's being funny because polls on facebook for pages so individuals can still do polls groups can still do polls but if you've got a facebook page as of right now and for the last three days it has been doing my head in we cannot put polls up so the segue is we're talking about the underrated pinball battle royale so we've put the bracket up on facebook and on instagram and also on Twitter if you want to go to Twitter, FinalRampIn.
    66:26
    But we cannot put any of the polls up at this stage. We are still trying to come to a solution. Before we do, and as you're listening to this, I just want to say this. That the Final Round Facebook page is like the worst strip joint ever. No polls.
    66:44
    Is that what you're saying? Well, it's that. What I want to just remind everybody is, we are voting for the underrated pinball, not what's your favourite. Oh, look at you trying to get those Stellar Wars votes. No, no, no, no. This is actually, no, that's not true. Stellar Wars has got no chance. Stellar Wars is going up against Demolition Man. So, no chance. This is actually in response to a comment, again, made by our good friend Ian Harrower. He said in the comments, My prediction is no one pays attention to the underrated part and just votes for their favorite game. There's also that other element, too, that is definitely a great Facebook grab and especially a carryover from the head-to-head pinball days. What is the better gif? What's the better gif? And this is why we've got other alternatives. This is why we're delaying it. I know, because we've got other alternatives to put the polls up, but without gifs. No. We need the gifs. That's what makes it fun. We've got to have the gifs. so there you go so hold out for guys it's coming, we might need to compress it somewhat so you'll be voting a lot for some days and then we'll do a 24 hour bracket so we'll see how we go we'll get to it, it's going to be fun but what I liked is when we put that post up with the actual bracket of most underrated people going, what about this game and I say to you people thank you for giving us something else to do because now we'll do another one well and don't forget we've also got the overrated pinball battle royale oh yeah so and we call that one the say goodbye to any friends in the industry bracket where we basically call their babies ugly although we are going to do a rule when we do the most overrated games it can't be a game within the last two years yeah because they're still trying to make some money we'll just leave those out we'll bite our lips correct let them settle to where we think they should land. So, you know, I don't know. Is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles still number one? Oh, it would be the most overrated game right now because it's number one and it just doesn't have the longevity to be deemed number one. Do you know what? It's not. It's not number one anymore. What? It's switched? What's number one? Okay, don't look. So this was on Pinside. It was number one. It was. Where do you think it is now? See, there weren't a lot of votes for it. And Pinside doesn't update, I think, every seven days. Okay. So let's put it this way. New game comes out. People love it. They rank it really high. They see it's ranked high on Pinside, and people revolt, and then they vote it down. Where do I think it is right now? Yep. Five. Lower. Wow. That is a lot of people going, fuck you. You're not number one. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Yes. How dare you? Yep. Keep going. Lower than five. Ten? Lower. Come on. No, it is. It's currently sitting at 12. Okay. I don't know if that's an accurate number or not. I do know number one is not accurate because, and that's not fair for me to say I haven't played it, but it's not the number one fucking pinball game. There's no way with what we've seen over the history of games. It would take a while for it to get to that point. Like, oh, I don't know, full code. You know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. However, this is what I will say. I know people that have now played it. I've seen a lot of comments from a bit of a sidebar. Judge the judges. We've talked about this before, Jeff. Judge the people that are judging. And try to get a respected opinion. So I'm hearing opinions from people that I respect about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And the feedback is, it's a tough game. But that's kind of what we expect from John Ball these days. But it is an incredibly fun game. Yeah. And more importantly, the rules are apparently amazing. So, you know, it probably shouldn't go in as number one, but I think Stern are on to an absolute winner with this game. Obviously, I'm yet to play it, but I've heard great feedback about it. Looking at the game, there's nothing about the game that I can say, I don't like that. I like everything about it. I like the funness. I like the artwork. I think Dwight's done a great job. I love John Borg games. so, you know, Jerry's done amazing with the sound and all the talent that he's put onto that. It's a winner for sure. But, again, to crown it the greatest game ever, you've got to have a little bit of longevity. You know, people haven't played it for a long time. You know, these games that are traditionally the number one game of all time have been around for a while. Yeah. Have full codes, you know. People have worked out the bugs and whatnot. But when you put in things like co-op mode and like that, I love when you see things like this because it makes it more fun for players that aren't competitive players, just casual players and people who want to have that kind of enjoyment at home. I think if I had the room, I would buy Turtles in a Heartbeat. Yeah, I don't need to. I've got Eric's getting one and Hashman that also streams on Rebel Silver Bowl. He's getting one. He probably should have his by now, but I can't visit. So I will get a chance to play it, and I'm really looking forward to it, Mainly because, as I said, I'm hearing positive feedback before I get to play it. Some previous releases, I've had mixed reviews going into it. So I'm looking forward to playing something with a sense of positivity. There you go. I know. Positivity in the pinball community? There's heaps of it. How dare you? I know. It's funny. We were talking about Pinside and whatnot. It's a great website. Yeah. We're critical a lot of times of the forum. because, you know, a lot of keyboard warriors and whatnot. But it's a real community, and we have to remember that there are people that never play in a competition. There are people that have never owned a machine. There are people that are just getting into pinball. People are longtime pinball owners, operators. You get everything in that form. Yeah. And it's funny because in our little group chat with Raymond Davidson, he was talking about a lot of people aren't using Tilt Forms anymore. Tilt Forms has always been kind of for competitions. And he said, I'm seeing guys like Colin McAlpine on Pinside as Snail Man and stuff. And Pinside's got some great stuff on there, no question about it. But Ray Day then went on to say about the lack of postings on Tilt Forums was, I blame Final Round. So you're welcome, Ray Day.
    73:21
    We filled that void, I guess, that Tilt Forums had. I do not believe that for a second. I guess so. But here's the thing about Pinside. I know we're obviously on a bit of a tangent here. pinside really is no different to most online communities if i'm really honest and and i say this because i i think it was probably about i don't know six weeks ago i joined uh a facebook group for one of my all-time favorite bands and this band from the 80s i'm not going to say who they are, but just sort of very joyous and lots of fun. You know, they've had success all around the world. Nothing too serious. Don't get wrapped up on it. And I thought, you know what, I'll join this group because there'll be lots of positivity. And it is just as toxic as any other forum. And I just thought to myself, I quickly got out. I just went, you know what, I don't need that. But it just highlights that when you get all these people together and they've all got opinions you're just going to get a lot of back and forth a lot of antagonistic posts towards people there's infighting there's the the bullies there's the knowledgeable people it's just that's just the community it's not that different so there you go you know i was thinking about what you and i do or any podcaster for that matter we offer our opinions what makes us the experts We're just two guys who like the hobby, like to talk about it, like to talk to each other, like to get the feedback from the community, like to share that feedback. We're no different. But we're certainly not experts, but we have fun doing it. And you listen to different podcasts with different angles. We're all in the same group. It's just different tangents, like you say. Correct. Yeah. Just a different outlook, a different view, sometimes saying the same thing, sometimes saying different things. So I guess what we're saying is… Ours is the best. Don't get me wrong. Look, look, look. Obviously, obviously, just being very humble about it. Their words, not mine. It's also, there is just, there's a lot of content out there for different things. If you hate us, that's kind of okay. There'll be a podcast for you. If you don't like the fact that we've got music at the start, then there's others that don't. So, you know. Eat shit if you don't like Frank Ullis to Hollywood. All right? Two Tribes is the perfect theme for us. Two Tribes is awesome. Eat shit.
    75:47
    I'm sorry. With that, thanks everybody for listening. Marty, I'm just trying to figure out if we should do an extra theme as well.
    75:58
    An outro? Is that what you meant to say? No, extra. Is that what they call them? I always call it an outro. No, extras. Okay, yes. Let's do more Frankie Goes to Hollywood. What do you reckon? Do you know that my wife and I, our first dance was The Power of Love by Frankie Goes to Hollywood? it. I'll protect you from the hooded claw. Keep the vampires from your door. If there's one thing I am as a husband, it's the guy who keeps vampires from your door. All right. Yes. Is that because of your garlic? A lot of bits and bites. Yeah, there's a lot of garlic to that. Yeah, that's a good point. Awesome. So Jeff, how can people get in touch with phoning around people podcast? I have no idea. No idea. He actually doesn't. He keeps forgetting our email address, which is finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Check out Final Round Pinball on Facebook, on Instagram, and on Twitter. Why not? What are the handles, though? I mean, somebody's sitting at their keyboard going right now, okay, I'm going to search. If you just type in final, space, stop me if I'm going too quick for you, Jeff, final, then space, round, then space, then pinball, you will find us. on every sort of social media platform. That Twitter. I mean, we're about to hit a major milestone on Twitter. Are we at 10 yet, followers? I mean, we do well on our Facebook group. We do well on Instagram. Actually, Instagram's huge. Everyone, you need to shut Jeff up by going to Twitter and liking us on Twitter. Just search Final Round Pinball or Final Round Pin, so at Final Round Pin is the user. Just get us to 100 by the end of the week. That ain't happening. Go and do it. Good luck, everyone. That's your challenge here. But we are going to be coming back very, very soon. A great guest coming up in a couple weeks. Where do you go when you have a former number one IFPA player in the world? There's only one place to go. Maybe he'll be joining us on episode 16 of the final round here on the Pinball Network. We look forward to speaking to you then. Have a good one. Stay safe. I'll protect you from the hooded claw. Keep the vampires from your door. When the chips are down, I'll be around With my undying, death-defying love for you Ha!
    78:26
    Relax, relax, go to where, to where When you wanna go, to where Relax, relax, go to where, to where When you wanna go Relax, relax, stars never stop Even when they're future-time Two stars never stop, even when they reach the top The goals of Supernova, one of the showbiz Yeah!