Episode 940: "How To Avoid Pinball Scams"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·21m 25s·analyzed·Apr 22, 2024

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Kaneda warns pinball buyers to avoid scams via credit cards, authorized dealers, and red flags like PM-only details.

Summary

Jeff Lee discusses pinball scams and fraud prevention, warning buyers about unauthorized dealers, fake listings, and unreliable manufacturers. He advocates using credit cards and PayPal business transactions for buyer protection, cites examples of people losing thousands to scammers and companies like Haggis Pinball and American Pinball with unfulfilled orders, and comments on secondary market depreciation of recent games like James Bond and Elton John.

Key Claims

James Bond LE new in box is selling for ~$10,500 on secondary market, down from original $13,000+ price
medium confidence · Kaneda citing current secondary market pricing observed while checking James Bond thread
Elton John Platinum Edition unsold at $11,200 in distributor inventory, with 1,000 CEs planned at $15,000 each
medium confidence · Kaneda discussing current distributor inventory and production plans for Elton John
A specific buyer lost $9,000 attempting to save $500 on a pinball machine purchase from an unauthorized middleman
medium confidence · Kaneda recounting specific scam victim case from his audience
Stern releases three cornerstone games per year; Jaws released end of December
high confidence · Kaneda stating this as established Stern release pattern
Haggis Pinball will make Blues Brothers as open-source game; Haggis has not shipped Spinal Tap
low confidence · Kaneda speculating about Haggis capabilities and criticizing company output quality
American Pinball's John Wick game is delayed; people are waiting for its release
medium confidence · Kaneda noting community anticipation for delayed John Wick release
Haggis Pinball has not given any updates since announcing recapitalization; no communication to owners or media
medium confidence · Kaneda citing lack of public communication from Haggis leadership
Chicago Gaming Company (CGC) delivered Pulp Fiction LE reliably, justifying collector deposits with them
medium confidence · Kaneda comparing CGC's track record favorably to manufacturers with unfulfilled orders

Notable Quotes

“People spend money on a game. They hear a price on a game that just seems really too good to be true and they move on it. And then they do the dumbest thing imaginable. They give a stranger a cashier's check or cash for a game that they haven't even physically seen.”
Jeff Lee @ ~10:30 — Core warning about the primary scam vector in pinball — buyers paying for unseen machines via untraceable methods
“Your greatest friend in the transaction of buying a pinball machine from someone you're not sure about is Amex, Mastercard, Chase, Visa, and PayPal. And when I say PayPal, not friends and family PayPal, make it a business transaction.”
Jeff Lee @ ~12:00 — Key protection mechanism Kaneda advocates — buyer protection via credit card dispute or PayPal chargeback
“The biggest scammers in the history of pinball have been the companies themselves, right? More people have been ripped off by Kevin Kulik, by guys like John Popadiuk. More people are getting ripped off right now by Damien over at Haggis.”
Jeff Lee @ ~14:00 — Kaneda equates manufacturer non-delivery with fraud, citing specific executives as scammers
“Every time Stern waits to release a new pinball machine that's going to be $13,000 for an LE, it gets harder and harder for them to sell said machine because everyone who's got an opened one is now worth like $9,000.”
Jeff Lee @ ~3:00 — Commentary on secondary market depreciation eroding confidence in new releases
“If you're seeing a Medieval Madness Royal Edition for $12,000, it's not going to be real. If you're seeing a Pirates of the Caribbean CE for $18,000, it's not going to be real.”
Jeff Lee @ ~13:00 — Specific examples of impossible pricing that signal scam listings
“People paid over a year ago they still don't have their games and they paid in full. It's not like a little Pulp Fiction deposit where we trust CGC to get it done because they made that.”
Jeff Lee @ ~15:00 — Direct criticism of American Pinball and Haggis for unfulfilled full-payment orders

Entities

Jeff LeepersonStern PinballcompanyAmerican Pinballcompany Haggis Pinballcompany Chicago Gaming Companycompany Kevin Kulikperson John PopadiukpersonDamienperson

Signals

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market_signal: Recent Stern games (James Bond, Jaws, Elton John) experiencing rapid secondary market price drops within months of release; opened machines losing $3-4K in value while new machines still in distributor inventory unsold
high · James Bond LE new in box $10,500 vs original $13,000+; Elton John Platinum $11,200 unsold; Kaneda predicts continued decline with production of 1,000 CEs
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product_concern: Multiple manufacturers (American Pinball, Haggis Pinball) failing to deliver machines to customers who paid in full; timelines extending beyond a year
high · Kaneda equates company non-delivery with fraud; cites American Pinball John Wick delays and Haggis full-payment unfulfilled orders as scam-equivalent
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community_signal: Shift in podcast focus toward consumer protection; Kaneda claims this is episode 940 and first dedicated fraud prevention episode, suggesting growing need to address scams in community
high · Kaneda: 'I've done like 940 episodes about pinball and I haven't covered how to not get scammed in the pinball industry. And there are people out there that have spent like nine grand, five grand, seven grand on games and they never got anything.'
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business_signal: Stern's three-game-per-year production model appearing insufficient to maintain secondary market value; each month of delay before next release reduces collector confidence and prior game values
medium · Kaneda: 'Every month Stern waits to release a new pinball machine that's going to be $13,000 for an LE gets harder and harder for them to sell said machine'
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Transcript

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0:00

I'm too sexy for your party, too sexy for your party, the way I'm disco dancing. I'm a model, you know what I mean, and I do my little turn on the catwalk. Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Yossi Ah, happy Monday morning everybody. Welcome to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. I'm kind of getting my voice back. We're going to have a good Monday morning show. We're going to talk about a topic today that I haven't really ever talked about. It's crazy. I've done like 940 episodes about pinball and I haven't covered how to not get scammed in the pinball industry. And there are people out there that have spent like nine grand, five grand, seven grand on games and they never got anything. And I want to explain to each and every one of you how much that sucks, but also how easy Stern does three cornerstone games a year and freaking jaws came out at the end of December. Are they stalling? What are they waiting for? And look, every month Stern waits to release a new pinball machine that's going to be $13,000 for an LE. Gets harder and harder for them to sell said machine because I was just looking up the James Bond thread. You can go get like a James Bond LE new in box for like $10,500 for a new in box James Bond. So everyone who's got an opened one is now worth like $9,000. That's $4,000 less. And nobody cares that the springs in your drop targets aren't the color blue. Nobody cares that you don't know how to light up the movie inserts in the game. Nobody cares that there's not the amount of Bond girls that you wanted in the game. All we're looking at right now is that everybody who bought one just lost $3,000 to $4,000. And this is going to be the theme, people. This is going to be the theme. Do you think Jaws pinballs are going to go up in value? No, they're not. Let's look at this Elton John Platinum Edition. So we finally got an Elton John on the secondhand market. It's just funny being in the Elton John thread. All these owners are acting like, I'm never going to sell this game. I'm never going to get tired of 16 Elton John songs, half of which have no energy. This is the greatest machine of all time, even though it's exactly the same as Star Trek. It's exactly the same as every other Steve Ritchie game, but this is the one. This is the one that's never leaving. I'm never letting this game go, even though I don't even like the theme. This game is bolted to the ground. Uh oh, but not so fast. Now that we're starting to see that you can go get a platinum edition for $11,200 and guess what? Still not sold. Distributors sitting on platinum editions unsold and once they make a thousand CEs at fifteen thousand dollars a pop, what do you think's gonna happen ladies and gentlemen? It ain't going up in price. It's just gonna head down that yellow brick road and we're gonna start to see Elton John collector's editions. Even those are not gonna be bolted to the floor because here's the thing, if they even come close to making one thousand of The way distributors have orders for one thousand games and we're going to start to see those go down in value and that's just modern pinball people you know I don't really let it bother me anymore it's like driving a car off the lot you're going to lose a lot of money in one year on every single game you get so you got to be somewhat careful right how much money are you going to pump in additionally into the game are you going to buy a two thousand dollars I'm your host, Jeff Altman, and I'll see you next time on Foo Fighters Topper.

4:40

You can't help but feel like you could have just waited and listened to Kaneda and you would have had the same exact game, probably dialed in in better condition than a new in box game, and you could have saved yourself thousands of dollars. And then you would have woke up and realized, well, hey, Kaneda's Pinball Podcast is only $60 a year. And if I just listened to this guy, I could save thousands of dollars. We got the worst news this week if you're a Blues Brothers fan. Home Pin Pinball is going to be open source making the Blues Brothers Pinball. I don't even know what that means. Did this company even ship a single spinal tap game That is the worst thing you could ever hear about a theme you love that it going to be made by either home pin haggis pinball or american pinball right that would just be like the worst news ever haggis pinball is going to make akira or like home pin has got the license for transformers g1 the movie and so if you a fan of the blues brothers home pin is not going to do this game justice i don even understand how these guys are still in business i don even understand what mike is doing The Spinal Tap looks like it came out 15 years ago, and none of these fringe companies can compete with what everyone else has going on in the pinball industry. So it's time for some of these companies just to close their doors. Just do us a favor, Haggis, close your doors. Has Haggis even given a single update since they said they were recapitalizing? They haven't reached out to anybody, not to their owners, not to anybody, not to the media. And so, hey, did Damien recapitalize? Who the heck is going to give them money? Think about it for a minute. Think about if you're on the other side of this whole scenario. Who's going to recapitalize and pump more money into Haggis Pinball? What could Damien even show them? The books have to be totally in the red. The company's not making money and heck, nobody's going to buy this like $17,500 oblivion edition of Centaur. Game over guys. Game over at American Pinball. Where the heck is John Wick? Elton John's are going to lose value. Monday morning Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. We're on top of it. What else is going on in the pinball world? I think we're all just waiting for John Wick. And that's the thing. It's like, where is this game? Every time there's a new Stern game, it's always a fun moment because we're not going to have to wait 14 months to get the game like Pulp Fiction Ellie. And by the way, people, I think I sold my Pulp Fiction Ellie for $1,000 over listing. So there is still some money to be made. Now look, I could have got I'm not going to be able to set up Pulp Fiction in my house, so I'll let it go to somebody else. This money does not go far people in 2024. I'm going to tell you that right now. I've got a parking garage where two months is 550 bucks. I got to pay that. I had one lunch at the grill restaurant in New York City that I'm not going to be able to expense for work because it got too expensive. That was three hundred and fifty dollars. Every time we order Chinese food in New York City, it's like 70 bucks. Trust me, a thousand dollars goes nowhere in twenty twenty four. And my company just gave people reviews. And trust me, these companies, I mean, they're all behind the times. The amount of raises they're giving people is just not equal to inflation in the world. And something's got to give eventually. I also lost one of my childhood friends this week because the guy was holding onto my demon tires. Now look, these OEM demon tires, my replacement tires with the demon logo on the tire, they're worth $5,000. And this guy was holding onto them for me. Good friend of mine, childhood friend. He moves his home. He moves into a new house and throws my tires out and doesn't even tell me. And here's the crazy part. He did that three years ago. And so after like communicating back and forth with this guy, he didn't offer to pay for them once. And then I send him a text message that was pretty damn strident. Be like, hey man, I want you to pay me at least 1800 for the newer tires that don't have the demon logo on it. Or I don't want you to talk to me again. Like this is ridiculous. How come you didn't just tell me to come pick up the tires? You know what he does? Political

9:36

And this is it. As we all get older, you guys can all relate to this. As you get older in life, you're going to bring some friends with you. You're going to cut some friends loose. And the moment money is involved, this is what happens all the time in life. Whenever there's money involved, you really find out what people's true colors are. And that's why I want to talk about not getting scammed in the world of pinball. I see this all too often. People spend money on a game. They hear a price on a game that just seems really too good to be true and they move on it. And then they do the dumbest thing imaginable. They give a stranger a cashier's check or cash for a game that they haven't even physically seen. They pay for a game that they haven't even inspected and they lose their money. Hey what up guys Now just to save 500 bucks he hears this great price from this guy and I think it was called like inthenewage right Some weird name guy who basically acting as a middleman He's not an authorized dealer or distributor. Let's just start right there. If you do not wanna get ripped off in pinball, the best thing you can do is only buy something from an authorized dealer or distributor. You should start there. Almost every single authorized dealer or distributor. They have so much inventory now, not just new in box. They also have old games. And here's the other thing. If you go to a reputable distributor or dealer, even if they don't have the game, they have other friends that are dealers and distributors, they will help you find one. It is not that hard. Any single pinball game that you want, you should go through people that have a reputation and whose livelihood is well documented in pinball. Just start right there. If you try to buy blindly, like off these Facebook for sale groups, you're going to get burned because here's what's happening. The scammers are the ones who are setting up those pages. They are the admins on those pages. And so whenever anyone tries to chime in that this looks fishy or sketchy, guess what they're going to do? They're going to block those people and try to prevent you from seeing the truth. The other thing is this, and this is a red flag. You've always got to look out for red flags when you're going to do a deal for this much money. The first red flag is this. When you ask a question on one of these group pages and they say PM me for details. No. You shouldn't have to be any PM me for details. They should let you know where the game is at and how much it costs and share photos of the games. But don't be fooled by photos because the number one thing a scammer is going to do is they are going to steal photos from a reputable dealer or distro. Not only that, some of these scammers will actually steal the entire identity of that distro and dealer and pretend to be them. So you gotta be extra careful when it comes to this. But here's the ultimate thing. And there is one thing that you should all be doing and you will never get scammed. You will never get burned ever. And your greatest friend in the transaction of buying a pinball machine from someone you're not sure about is Amex, Mastercard, Chase, Visa, and PayPal. And when I say PayPal, not friends and family PayPal, make it a business transaction. He's not your friend. He's not your family member. Stop paying people friends and family. You can never get your money back. And that is the biggest red flag because every single person out there can accept PayPal business. And you should say to them, I will pay the fee, but this is the only way I'm going to pay you because I need some protection. And if they're resisting that, that is the ultimate red flag that it is a scam. So you should never ever in a million years, you should never directly wire people money from your checking account that you can't get back. You should never send a cashier's check that you can't get back unless it's a personal friend of yours and you know the individual. It's so weird to me that anyone ever gets burned in this hobby. The other thing is this, the old cliches in life are accurate. If a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. If you're seeing a medieval madness royal edition for $12,000, it's not going to be real. If you're seeing a Pirates of the Caribbean CE for $18,000, it's not going to be real. You got to go off of the market prices on these games. And if it's a new in box game and you're just trying to save 500 bucks, I mean, this guy I just lost $9,000 trying to save himself 500 bucks. His money is gone. He's never going to get it back. Now he has to go deal with the local police. He's got to go get lawyers. All of that costs time. All of that costs money. And if he just bought the game from coin taker or automated or pinball star, you could go down a list. I mean in every single manufacturer out there, every single manufacturer out there, they list the dealers you should buy from. So it should be no mystery. The other part about pinball that's been rough is the biggest scammers in the history of pinball have been the companies themselves, right? Isn't that crazy? More people have been ripped off by Kevin Kulik, by guys like John Popaduke. More people are getting ripped off right now by Damien over at Haggis, like Andrew Highway. Yeah, you all get lumped in. If you took people's money and you lied about when they were getting a game, I consider you to be like ripping people off until you make good on your promises. So Damien, that's why you're in that set of people right now. You know people paid over a year ago they still don have their games And they paid in full I mean this they paid in full It not like a little Pulp Fiction deposit where we trust CGC to get it done Because they made that Hey guys thanks for watching I your host Jeff Altman I see you next time Bye Bye Bye Bye Bye Bye Bye Bye. I don't have time for this. Like we're grown adults. We all work hard for our money and I'm so tired of the victim blaming. It's incredible and I don't want to blame any of you, but don't become a victim. This is the thing. Don't become a victim. Nobody should ever be a victim of a pinball scam. You should always offer to pay with your credit card and offer to pay PayPal business that will protect you and you will never get ripped off. And if you ever want to do a deal in cash and meet somebody in person with a lot of cash on you, don't be stupid. Tell them you want to meet outside the police station. Go somewhere very public where there's going to be some law enforcement and don't be dumb. Don't trust people. I've learned this the hard way. Everybody has learned this the hard way. I'm gonna give you another quick story. When I got my Dodge Demon, something about this damn Demon, it follows me around. When I got my Demon, right, my salesman ran into some hard times and he said, Chris, can I borrow $2,500? This was five years ago and it was like August. And he's like, I'm gonna pay you back by the end of the year. I gave him $2,500. He still hasn't paid me back. And now he said he's going to pay me $50 a week until the end of the year, which will equal like 1800 bucks. And guess what? He paid one week and then two weeks go by and no other payment. I'm just saying don't have faith in people. Have faith in your partner, have faith in your family and have faith in your friends that you really trust. And you might find out that some of those friends you thought you could trust, once money is involved, you can no longer I'm going to give you a shout out to somebody right now who is the epitome of a great friend. And even though we don't talk all the time, he is like one of the greatest guys in pinball and his name is Robert Mooney. And he's probably listening to this right now being like, wait, what, Chris, why are you talking about me right now? And I want to say this, I want to give you an example of what a great human being is like. So years ago, years ago when I got rid of my arcade games, I needed places to put them Robert had a beautiful arcade in New Jersey and he said, Chris, like two options. If you want to store your Fix It Felix, I would happily store it in my game room. I also could store it for you in a storage unit. I think he has access to some storage units and he's like, I'll happily do that for you. And I said, Robert, put it in the arcade. Let the kids enjoy it. And he did. And it was always in his arcade and it's still in his arcade. And guess what? Robert moved from New Jersey to Pennsylvania. Guess what? When he moved, he didn't hit me up three years later and said, hey man, I forgot to move your game. Sorry, my bad. I was going through some turmoil. No, he still has the game. But here's the part that makes Robert Mooney an angel. One day, the monitor on this Fix-It Felix Jr. just craps out. It stops working. Okay, now what happened? Did Robert just like not say anything and let me pick up the game years later and is like, oh yeah, by the way bro, that broke like four years ago, sorry, it's on you now. No, you know what he did? He fixed it. He found someone to come and fix the monitor. That is amazing. And that's my point is there's going to be some people in this world who understand values and principles and friendship and what is the right thing to do. And then you're going to run into people that are going to do the complete opposite. They're going to mislead you. They're going to give you the runaround. They're going to give you every excuse in the book and they're not going to be there for you. And the reason I love Kaneda's Pinball Podcast and the community here is I don't know what I would quite do without this community because you guys are some of the best. And the conversations we have on a weekly basis are amazing. And it goes beyond pinball because I just feel like we need to have connections with people we trust. You know, but you got to be careful. That's the thing is you got to be careful. So Robert, thank you so much. And I think we might be putting the Fix It Felix into Killian's bedroom. So after all these years, I'm obviously going to do something nice for Robert for holding on to that game for so long and not charging me any money. And everybody look, happy Monday. Don't get ripped off. John Wick is around the corner. Stern can't hide it forever. We all know it's not going to be worth $13,000. And everybody be good. We'll talk to you soon this week. Kaneda out. I'm too sexy for my love, too sexy for my love, love's going to leave me, but I'm too sexy for this song.