Episode 874: "Games That Went Nowhere"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·24m 42s·analyzed·Nov 13, 2023

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Stern's limited edition saturation, Spooky's mystery clues, JJP's customer service failure, and games that lost collectors money.

Summary

Kaneda discusses Stern's controversial strategy of releasing multiple limited editions of the same game (Elvira), diluting collector value; speculates on Spooky Pinball next title based on mechanical clues (likely Evil Dead, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, or Young Frankenstein); criticizes Jersey Jack Pinball for banning a $70k+ customer over negative Elton John feedback; and presents a reverse collector's corner analyzing pinball games that have failed to hold value or depreciated significantly.

Key Claims

Elvira 40th Anniversary Edition was initially priced by distributors at $25,000, down from MSRP, undercutting the earlier Signature Edition ($15,000 for 99 units) and disappointing collectors
high confidence · Kaneda, discussing distributor pricing strategy and George Gomez's response
A Jersey Jack customer who spent $70,000 on JJP machines was banned from the official forum for a single negative comment about Elton John Pinball
high confidence · Kaneda, referencing a forum post he saw
Spooky Pinball sent a prototype of a spinning bookcase mechanism, hinting at Evil Dead (cabin in the woods) as the next game, possibly also including Young Frankenstein, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, or Looney Tunes
medium confidence · Kaneda, speculating on clues from Spooky
George Gomez does not understand that releasing multiple limited editions of the same game dilutes collector value, even if newer versions are more sought-after
high confidence · Kaneda, analyzing George Gomez's explanation during a customer conversation
Punny Factory Kickstarter will not reach its $5,000 goal; only ~$1,000 had been raised by the time of recording
high confidence · Kaneda, citing fundraiser status
Almost every Stern limited edition has gone up in value; secondary market prices are severely inflated and unrealistic
medium confidence · Kaneda, observing market trends
Toy Story Collector's Edition originally sold for ~$15,000 and is now available new in box for $10,499, representing a $4,500+ loss
high confidence · Kaneda, citing Pinside listings from Flip N Out Pinball
Pirates of the Caribbean Collector's Edition has appreciated dramatically; if purchased at $12,500, would now cost ~$35,000 to replace
medium confidence · Kaneda, using as market comparison example
James Bond 60th Anniversary (Keith Elwin) has lost the most value of any recent premium pin and will never recover; ~10 units available at any time on Pinside despite only 500 in existence

Notable Quotes

“Every time you make another version of this game, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the title of the game, but it's a game that's limited. It will chip away the value of the previous limited games, of the previous versions of the game, because the more games you add into the collector mix, the more you dilute the game itself.”
Kaneda @ ~8:45 — Core argument about why Stern's multi-edition strategy damages collector confidence
“Jersey Jack Pinball, you need to wake up. You can't be treating your loyal customers like this. Even if a guy says something disparagingly about Elton John, don't ban him before you know who he is.”
Kaneda @ ~15:20 — Direct criticism of JJP's customer service and community management
“American Pinball, it's like their only strategy is really fancy launch video, spam us on Facebook that they have games for sale, and that's it.”
Kaneda @ ~16:30 — Critique of American Pinball's marketing and engagement strategy
“Most of you out there probably could not afford to buy back your existing collection on the limit.”
Kaneda @ ~20:15 — Observation about secondary market inflation pricing out collectors from expanding collections
“The real shame about Oktoberfest is really how hideous it is. It is one of the ugliest games when you actually stand over it.”
Kaneda @ ~38:50 — Explains why Oktoberfest failed despite solid mechanics and code
“If there's none to get, then the price will keep going up and up. Here's another game where if you bought one, you just lost $3,000.”
Kaneda @ ~42:30 — Demonstrates scarcity as driver of value vs. depreciation when supply exists
“A $7,500 GNR LE vs a $10,600 Labyrinth. This game is now a great value for the buck.”
Kaneda @ ~46:00 — Market comparison showing relative value shifts between titles
“I just saw another Batman SLE changed hands for $30,000. It's holding nicely, people. It's holding nicely. One of 80.”

Entities

Kanedaperson George Gomezperson John Buscagliaperson Kerry Hardyperson Joe BalcerpersonDerekpersonKen Cromwellperson

Signals

?
product_strategy: Stern Pinball releasing multiple 'limited' editions of Elvira (Signature at 99 units, 40th Anniversary at 199 units, Black and White Blood Kiss edition at lower MSRP), each newer version diluting collector value of previous editions despite higher scarcity
high · Kaneda's detailed breakdown of Elvira editions and price history; George Gomez's defense of the strategy
?
community_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball banned a $70,000+ lifetime customer from official forum for expressing negative opinion about Elton John Pinball, triggering customer to announce boycott
high · Forum post referenced by Kaneda; direct quote from banned customer expressing intent to never buy JJP again
$
market_signal: Multiple premium titles (Toy Story CE, James Bond 60th, Venom LE, Foo Fighters LE, Gunz N' Roses LE) have depreciated significantly ($3,000-$5,000+) since release; suggests market saturation and declining collector demand
high · Kaneda's detailed Pinside pricing data for multiple titles with specific loss amounts
$
market_signal: Secondary market prices for available machines are severely inflated; most sellers delusional about valuations; collectors priced out from expanding collections
high · Kaneda's observation that 'nothing is moving at all' despite 'everyone is delusionally pricing their games'
?
rumor_hype: Spooky Pinball providing mechanical clues (spinning bookcase, sliding bookcase) for unannounced next title; community speculation includes Evil Dead, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Young Frankenstein, or Looney Tunes

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.074

0:00

Welcome everybody to Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. It's a Sunday night. I know I don't have time tomorrow morning to do a show. You know how much I love you. I'm going to do it on a Sunday evening. Here's what we're going to talk about on this episode of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. We're going to talk a little bit about this punny factory and if we're going to get this thing tossed off the roof of TNT, it's not looking good, people. We're going to talk about George Gomez is actually behind all of these new limited edition versions of his machine. I'm going to talk about a conversation a gentleman had between himself and George Gomez after this gentleman felt burned I'm going to talk about some of the things that happened after he bought Elvira 40th Anniversary Edition. It saddens me to say that George is on board for all of this stuff and all of these shenanigans. We're going to talk about Spooky Pinball. We're going to talk about some clues they've been putting out into the pinball world about what their next title might be. And then we're going to do a little bit something different on this episode of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. Instead of going into collector's corner, we're going to do a little bit of an opposite of collector's corner. I'm going to talk about games that were not worth collecting over the last few years in pinball because almost every single game has either held its value or gone up in value. In fact, it's absolutely bonkers when you look at used pinball prices and nothing's moving. Nothing is moving at all, but everyone is delusionally pricing their games. And we're going to talk about the titles which just were not worth investing in. All right, let's start out with George Gomez real quick. So imagine if you were a Stern customer and you bought the limited edition version of Elvira. Let's just imagine you bought the first limited edition version of the game which was the sig edition of the game, the signature edition, which came with a little piece of the red couch. It came with Elvira's signature and I think that game was originally $15,000 and they only made 99 of those machines. So what happened after that? Then Stern Pinball screwed over all the owners of that game by making a 40th anniversary edition of the game which was much nicer. Now they upped the amount of games they made to 199 of those purple ones with the beautiful embossed decals. But here's the thing, when those games came out, I think some people forget this, those Elvira 40ths, Stern was too coward to put a price on the machine and they gave them all to distributors now what happened was this distributors I heard bought them for fifteen thousand dollars and then they were told to price it at whatever they wanted and the initial price that the distros put on this game was twenty five thousand dollars and there were people who bought it at that price point twenty five thousand dollars now most of these games they sold around twenty thousand dollars which means distros were making five thousand dollars I'm a fan of the game. I think this black and white Bloodkiss edition of the game is the nicest version of Elvira to date. And it is only $13,000 when you compare it to what it used to be, $25,000. So this gentleman hit up George Gomez and was like, this is crap. Like you released another version of the game and how it undermines people who believe you The Final Limited Pinnacle Now look Stern people never said that that was the only limited version of the game and that's the problem going on right now And what George Gomez said he said that he trusts the chief revenue officer John Buscaglia And John Buscaglia comes from tops trading card company, and if there's anyone who knows how to screw over collectors It's the trading card industry now this guy's been over at Stern pinball for 11 years I think John's been making some great moves, but lately, it really does seem like Stern Pinball is overdoing it. And the other point George Gomez was making, he was confused as to why this buyer was upset because he said, you have a game where there's only 199 of them, so clearly that game has more value than a game we're going to make 500 of. And George is not wrong, but the point that George is missing is this. Every time you make another version of this game, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the title of the game, but it's a game that's limited. It will chip away the value of the previous limited games, of the previous versions of the game, because the more games you add into the collector mix, the more you dilute the game itself. Nothing feels like it's the special version. And we saw the same thing, because where George's argument does not hold water is the 40th anniversary of the game is actually more sought after than the one where there's only 99 with the Today is Friday, and while today is basically fixed just another Friday, on the other hand if you have celery as only last single hoping to How does George Gomez not understand how crappy that's making their own customers feel? And Stern Pinball should not be making any moves that undermines people that are spending well over $15,000 on its products. So there you go, you know, George Gomez is in full support of all of these new variations of machines. PINBALL PINBALL PINBALL PINBALL PINBALL I going to get a Jurassic Park 40th anniversary Are we going to get a Batman 60th anniversary If Stern keeps doing this man it just going to be another reason why people are not going to buy games new in box ever again All right so let talk about this punny factory Now look it not going to reach the goal of And the reason why is this Look the content will be amazing But the thing is this Everyone is now saying to themselves is seeing that thing happen Now, the good news is, is Donald will refund anybody's money, so if you donate to the cause, you're not gonna lose any money if it doesn't happen. I think the last I saw, it was around $1,000 has been raised since this thing went live on Friday. Now, look, I've talked about it, Kerry Hardy's talked about it, a few thousand people have seen this thing, and it's not gonna reach the $5,000 goal. Closed Caption by YouTube. bring it on!

7:30

You owe me a tennis ballzwischen. I love to see this thing tossed off the roof. I think Donald's gonna need to cut the amount in half and get it to like 2500 and then I think we'll see this thing fly off the roof of TNT. Don't hate me Donald, like everyone's still just scratching their heads as to why anybody would even buy this damn game. But I donated to the cause. I gave 50 bucks to the cause. Alright, what else is going on in pinball? So Spooky Pinball sent me a prototype of a mechanism that was a bookcase that slid open. There was another clue they gave. It is also something that might be a spinning mechanism. So does that mean that it's going to be a spinning bookcase? And there's a movie that has a famous spinning bookcase scene. It is no other than Young Frankenstein. So now this game is put into the mix. I don't think it's going to be Young Frankenstein. I still think it's going to be Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Evil Dead. I had better information that it's gonna be Evil Dead and it's the cabin in the woods that spins around and that's gonna be the major mech in the middle of the game. So is it gonna be Evil Dead and Looney Tunes? Is it gonna be maybe Evil Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre? Maybe the Looney Tunes one is just the one that's not gonna happen. I don't know, it's really strange to think that Spooky Pinball is gonna use the same design for a horror movie and Looney Tunes. So we will see what happens over in spooky pinball land. I think we're going to see this new theme in the next six months. It's going to be exciting. And I'm glad that they're dropping clues. You know, it's fun to speculate on what's around the corner from all of these companies. All right, what else is going on in pinball before we talk about games that you never should have bought in the first place, either because they haven't gotten up in value or they've lost value over the years? I saw this interesting post about Jersey Jack Pinball. This was a gentleman who's bought $70,000 in Jersey Jack Pinball machines. I mean, think about that for a minute. Like, that's a loyal customer. That's a lot of cheddar. You gotta make $140,000 before taxes to invest in that many Jersey Jack machines. So this gentleman is in the open beta thing with Jersey Jack and I guess there's like a forum or a discord where people can talk about the games themselves and give some feedback. And apparently this gentleman made a single statement comment that he was not a fan of Elton John Pinball and they banned him from the Jersey Jack forum. And he basically is like, I'm so done, I'm never buying another Jersey Jack machine again. Jersey Jack Pinball, you need to wake up. You can't be treating your loyal customers like this. Even if a guy says something disparagingly about Elton John, don't ban him before you know who he is. Maybe you should reach out to him and say, hey, like I heard your comment about Elton John. We can't wait for you to play one. We think when you play one, it's going to change your mind. That's how you handle a customer of yours that spent $70,000 with your company. Nope, they immediately put down the banhammer on him. After hearing Jack's recent interview, I'm just feeling like this company is arrogant, they are smug, and they're not treating their customers the right way. Jersey Jack, you need to hold a meeting. Get your head of communications and marketing in the room, Ken Cromwell. Get Brett Abbas in the room. Get all of your design team in the room and start to establish how you're going to start State of Davis통 ден I'm not a pinball machine. It's like their only strategy is really fancy launch video, spam us on Facebook that they have games for sale, and that's it. That's it. They don't do anything else. Like, what are they going to do tomorrow? What's their sales and marketing team doing every single week? They're seemingly not doing anything to build the right bridges between the brand and the consumers out there. And I bet they don't even care, right? I think that's the thing. That's the vibe I'm getting. Dostoevsky ball communities like we are all toxic and we are to be avoided at all costs Let do the opposite of Canadian collectors corner These are games that you should not have collected I'm going to talk about what the title is and what you can get one for right now on pin side. And the thing I was saying earlier, almost every single pinball game has held its value. Almost every single Stern has gone up in value. Now, the problem in pinball now is this. I've been seeing so many of your beautiful game rooms. So many of you bought these machines for so much less money. And the good news is this. You own the machine. So you don't have to spend these ridiculous prices to get the very games you currently own. So a lot of you are now like, well, I'm not going to go spend almost twice as much money now to build a collection when I've already got these incredible machines. Most of you out there probably could not afford to buy back your existing collection on the limit. The Bad news for Richie Wrench because you bought your freaking Pirates of the Caribbean for $12,500 for the collector's edition. And if you want to go back and get it now, good luck. You're going to have to spend $35,000 on it. And you think that's not going to put a sour taste in his mouth? All right. So what games are we talking about? First and foremost, I just want to let everybody know that you can still get a Blood Red Kiss edition of Elvira and Jurassic Park 30th new in box for MSRP. So just keep that in mind. You know, these things have not sold out and I think that's indicative of the market. Alright, the first game on our list of a game you should not have collected for sale, Houdini! Everybody's favorite disaster, Houdini, a game with a bunch of cool toys. The shots are terribly tight, it's not fun to shoot because Joe Balser designed this game without even a CAD design. He basically like closed his eyes and just screwed a bunch of posts into the playfield, The game is a very difficult game to play because a lot of the must-make shots are super difficult. And so that is why, coupled with the terrible artwork, you can get a Houdini for $5,800, not worth collecting. Another game you should not have collected, I lost money on this next game, is Ultraman Collector's Edition. You can go get one, again from Great American Pinball, for $6,000 on the dot. This game has lost a lot of money and you know it's just going to keep going down and down and down. Another game that if you bought one and I'm talking to you Derek, you should have waited because GodfatherLEs are now selling new in box for $9,200. Derek, you just lost $3,000 and if yours is opened up, it's probably worth like $8,000 right now. So Godfather LE, a terrible, terrible purchase. The collector's editions are holding much stronger than the LEs on the Godfather. Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. You know, Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, I gotta say, it's holding pretty steady. I believe there's only one for sale right now and it's $8,500. So look, a spooky game that's flat in value is not a bad deal. I think it's actually a little bit more than that game was brand new. So actually Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle was not a bad buy. The Jetsons, I don't know, you know, there's only one available for $7,200. I know that was a contract game. There's not even a single Domino's game for sale. They didn't make many Domino's or the Jetsons spooky pinball. So you do have a rare machine. The only problem with both those games, they were contract build. The machines are not that great. Here's another one where if you bought this one, you're kicking yourself. Hot wheels, hot wheels, You can get a new in box hot wheels for $6,000 now I think brand new this game was around like 6500 but man new in box after all these years and hot wheels is a great property it just goes to show this stripped down game with no mechanisms in it it really was a shame that they made a hot wheels game with no loop-de-loop no car wash no jump none of the things that kids love to do with hot wheels was found in the hot wheels pinball machine All right, speaking of games that just haven't really held value, the first spooky pinball machine, America's Most Haunted, there is one available for $5,750. I mean, look, I'd rather have this than Punny Factory, but this is another game, even though it's Spooky's first game and it's rare as can be, there's only 150 of these in the world. You know, they're kinda just like holding value, but if you think about it, $5,700 bucks for a game that's this rare is not a collectible item. Oh, the next one is terrible. For people out there who spend $15,000 on a Toy Story collector's Edition, you can go get one. The cheapest one available is coming from Flippin' Out Pinball. What happened to all those Bo Peep loops they were loving? So you can get the cheapest one from Flippin' Out for $10,499 or Best Offer and this one's been up there for a while. You know what's nuts about Toy Story CE is like you can buy it from a distributor at such a cheap price and every other CE listed on Pinside is listed for much more money than this. And so is everyone else just delusional or are they gonna wake up and realize you just lost $5,000 in two years on this game? Alright another game not worth collecting Rob Zombie Spookshow International How many of these did they make I wanna say they made 500 Robzombies Is that right Did they make 500 or was it 350 I not sure It one of those I wanna say they went from 150 America Most Haunted to something like 350 Robzombies and then 500 Alice Coopers I might be wrong But anyway Rob Zombie is a game that not aging very well It is one of those like early spooky builds that feels much more like a garage build than a game made by a legitimate pinball company and you can get one for 5200 bucks or best offer. Another spooky game that's not holding much value or kind of stagnant is Total Nuclear Annihilation. Remember this game came out it was like 6500 bucks and it went all the way up to like 8 or 9 thousand dollars before they made the remake. So now you can go get the original which I still would argue looks better with the original armor for 6800 dollars. Again this is a game where like the collectability was there for a while but when they made more it sort of like tanked the collectability of the game. Next on our list, everyone's favorite art package, Oktoberfest which wasn't even released in October. You know what's sad about Oktoberfest? You can get one for $6,250. The real sad part about Oktoberfest, it's actually not a bad game. It's loaded with toys, the code is super fun, it's got more in it than Galactic Tank Force. I think it's a more fun game to play than Galactic Tank Force. The real shame about Oktoberfest is really how hideous it is. It is one of the ugliest games when you actually stand over it. It's really just bad artwork. Can you imagine if they got like Matt Andrews or Zombie Yeti to make Oktoberfest look more like Magic Girl? Like why couldn't they just make it look amazing? Because all the mechs are there, but it's just hideous. And then it's got that hideous American Pinball backbox. And that's one of the reasons why I think people just don't like the game. You know what game's actually not tanking in value and I thought it would have? Legends of Valhalla. I gotta give credit to this game. There's only one available and it's for $8,000. So this game has held its value kind of nicely for people who bought one. Now look, every single Stern LE has gone up in value. Like almost every single one. You cannot find a Stern LE to get for less money than it was MSRP. Maybe Led Zeppelin, but those owners are starting to get crazy. But here's one, a WrestleMania LE The game was $5,000, $5,500 for the LE of WrestleMania. So for it to be back up to $7,500 at a break-even point just goes to show where the market is at people. You know, I was also thinking about like Mustang. I'm like, that has to be a game that hasn't held much value. But there's only one Mustang LE for sale and it is $11,900 or best offer. And the reason why is, you know, back in the day when they only made 500 and there's a lot of car enthusiasts, people are not trading these games frequently. I mean, there are more Pirates of the Caribbean's for sale. There are more Pirates of the Caribbean collector's editions for sale right now than Mustang LEs. And that's the thing about collectability gang. Like if there's none to get, then the price will keep going up and up. Here's another game where if you bought one, you just lost $3,000. Toy Story LE, $9,000 or best offer. It's just gonna keep going down and down in price. I don't know if this is worse than that or kind of even, but Guns N' Roses LEs continue to sink. $7,500 firm for an LE of Guns N' Roses LE. And this is a machine with some mods and in good condition. $7,500 bucks. I mean I'm gonna say this right now. A $7,500 GNR LE vs a $10,600 Labyrinth. This game is now a great bang for the buck. I mean GNR is still a great game. I mean at $7,500 it's an even better game cuz you'll have more fun playing it knowing you got it for such a good price. Alright what else is on my list here? A dialed in LE just sold for $6,700 bucks. I mean that's crazy. $6,700 bucks. There is a dialed in CE on Pinsight right now for $13,000. I would much rather buy a dialed in CE in which there's only like, I think there might be like 150 of those in the world. I would much rather have a dialed in CE than spend $12,000 on an Elton John LE or a Toy Story LE. Alright, are you ready for the last one? The worst game for any collector to have bought because it's lost the most money since it came out and it's a Keith Elwin pin is James Bond's 60th anniversary. $14,300. Not only that, for a game where there's only what, 500 in the world, right? There's no other editions of this game. Only 500 Keith Elwin games in the world. There's almost like 10 of them available for sale at any given time on Pinside. It's a weird game and it's never gonna have a second life. It's not like people are gonna flock back to this damn thing. You know, I didn't even mention Venom's tanked in value. Foo Fighters has also lost $3,000 in value. Both Venom and Foo Fighter LEs are not worth collecting. They've both lost that much money in less than a year. So man, there you go. If you bought one of these games this year, congratulations. There are still deals to be had in pinball. If you bought these games and just held on to them, you haven't really lost much money. But if you had bought other games instead of these games, you probably would have doubled your money if you had sold those other games during the height of COVID. I just saw another Batman SLE changed hands for $30,000. It's holding nicely, people. It's holding nicely. One of 80. It's such a gorgeous machine. Everybody have a great start to your week and remember, wait and see. Why buy now and follow Kaneda's Pinball Podcast to get the most entertaining, unbiased pinball podcast on planet Earth. We'll talk to you soon.