Wizards & Warriors Episode 6 features an in-depth interview and finals analysis with ZMAC (Zach McCarthy), winner of the 2025 Maine Division A playoffs and back-to-back Indisc champion. The episode covers McCarthy's background in competitive pinball (competing since age 4-5 with family arcade ownership), his tournament strategy and mental game approach, and detailed gameplay analysis of the three finals games: Rush, Grand Lizard, and Johnny Pneumonic. McCarthy discusses the 2025 Indisc bank composition versus prior year, tilt settings, card selection strategy, and his goals to win IFPA and close the gap with top-ranked players Asher and Jason.
Key Claims
2025 Indisc had 350+ players, making it the world's largest open tournament this year
high confidence · Host states at beginning of episode regarding Never Drains tournament in Southern California
ZMAC started competitive pinball tournaments at age 4-5 with a stool to reach machines
high confidence · Direct statement from Zach McCarthy during biographical interview
ZMAC's family owns approximately 40 pinball machines in their Colorado arcade
high confidence · Zach McCarthy confirms during interview: 'My parents own 40ish... yeah it's a big arcade'
2025 Indisc bank was 'wackier' than 2024 with fewer Stern games (2 vs 4) and more Bally/Williams titles including multiple Goldees and Caesars
high confidence · ZMAC: 'This year's bank was definitely a lot wackier than last year's... Jim unleashed right all the god lees all the Caesars'
ZMAC walked 23,000 steps on Sunday at Indisc 2025 due to pacing during tournament play
high confidence · Host mentions ZMAC's Apple Watch data from Sunday at Indisc
The prize for winning Indisc 2025 was $500 and a new Stern Pro of winner's choice; ZMAC selected Dungeons & Dragons Pro
high confidence · Zach McCarthy: 'The prize was 500 bucks and a new unboxed Stern Pro and your choice is um... I was able to send Zach Sharpe at Stern my top three choices... Dungeons and Dragons Pro'
ZMAC was forced to select Rush in finals because it was the only remaining modern he hadn't played in earlier rounds
high confidence · Host explanation: 'He had to play it in the finals because um there you have to pick the monitor that you bring in or the game that you bring in at some point in the tournament he hadn't picked Rush yet'
ZMAC's pacing habit began seriously at Pinball Expo 2022 after a tough match against Dalton
high confidence · Zach: 'I feel like I really started doing it after like Pinball Expo 2022 I remember I had like really tough match against Dalton and I started pacing like crazy then'
Notable Quotes
“I was born into it right so I uh my parents uh had games when I was growing up so there was never a time when I wasn't filled with pinball machines really”
ZMAC (Zach McCarthy) @ ~5:30 — Explains his lifelong immersion in pinball from childhood, unusual trajectory for competitive player
“The most important thing that I got is you know focusing on your mental game and that you know pinball looks like it's mostly just flipper skills... but there's also a huge component of um your mental game”
ZMAC @ ~18:45 — Core piece of advice from his pinball coach Adam Leof; identifies mental game as primary differentiator for competitive success
“I feel like I really started doing it after like Pinball Expo 2022 I remember I had like really tough match against Dalton and I started pacing like crazy then ever since then I think I really started pacing during uh tournaments”
ZMAC @ ~21:10 — Origin story of his signature pacing habit during tournament play
“You should always start with the most dangerous games first that way if they go bad then you can you know easily get back in line avoid the card right you're not wasting all this time on your easy and long and safe consistent games”
ZMAC @ ~26:30 — Card format strategy: risk management through game selection order
“Elton John to be like my favorite game at Indisc I thought it played pretty pretty solid... if you're able to make your shots like it's super good game”
ZMAC @ ~29:15 — Positive assessment of Elton John setup; characterizes it as accuracy-rewarding machine
“I definitely think I don't know if there's added pressure to like win again... when I made final four if I didn't win I was at least satisfied with my position”
ZMAC @ ~31:45 — Reflects on defending championship title and pressure management
“Far Cry is definitely the most valuable of the um or Headlong Flight is probably technically the most valuable but it's very very deep into the game so you're mostly focusing on Far Cry if you want good value”
community_signal: ZMAC's back-to-back Indisc championships (2024, 2025) position Maine as significant competitive hub; ZMAC's efficient routing through competitive hierarchy suggests strong local competition structure and coaching ecosystem in Colorado/Maine region
medium · Back-to-back victories plus evidence of rigorous local tournament structure forcing game selection strategy; coach Adam Leof mentioned as foundational influence
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competitive_signal: 2025 Indisc bank featured significantly different distribution: fewer Stern moderns (2 vs 4 from 2024), more Bally/Williams/Gottlieb titles (multiple Goldees, Caesars), and curator Jim Belsito 'unleashed' on game selection; bank characterized as 'wackier' with overall 'safer' scoring opportunities and easier consistent play than 2024
high · ZMAC: 'This year's bank was definitely a lot wackier than last year's right like there's no Kingpin last year um you know I feel like there was maybe four or five Bally Williams title and there was like four Sterns or whatever this year there was two Sterns like yeah three Bally Williams'
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competitive_signal: Top IFPA tier (ZMAC, Asher, Jason) exhibits extremely tight clustering in WPPR point accumulation; efficiency differential of ~10% is primary ranking separator; high-performing players finish close together in majors, making positional movement difficult despite winning major events like Indisc
high · ZMAC: 'It's like when when you all do well it's there's really no movement so it's tough for sure it's hard because you imagine back-to-back Indisc champ you're going to jump but you're also you know in this upper echelon where no one it's very rare air'
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design_philosophy: Indisc game bank curators prioritize playability and tight tilt management: most machines feature 'loose' tilts allowing player expression through nudging/movement, with notable exceptions (Grand Lizard, Johnny Pneumonic) set tighter; philosophy attributed to curator Jim Belsito's typical setup approach
Topics
Indisc 2025 tournament analysis and finals gameplayprimaryZMAC's background and competitive trajectoryprimaryMental game and pressure management in competitive pinballprimaryCard format tournament strategy and game selectionprimaryComparison of 2024 vs 2025 Indisc game bankssecondaryTilt settings and playfield difficulty balance at major tournamentssecondaryIFPA ranking dynamics and efficiency metricssecondarySpecific game rules and multiball strategy (Rush Far Cry, Grand Lizard spinner, Elton John accuracy)secondary
Sentiment
positive(0.82)— Hosts and guest maintain enthusiastic, respectful tone throughout. ZMAC demonstrates confidence and humility about his accomplishment. Tournament and game setups are praised as 'amazing' and well-executed. Only minor criticism regarding game selection constraints and personal performance regrets. Celebratory and mentoring tone overall.
Transcript
youtube_auto_sub · $0.000
[Music] Castle uh welcome everybody this is the portion of wizards and warriors where we go in depth on the finals for whatever major tournament uh even smaller tournaments um that we are going through on this episode obviously the beginning of January the beginning of the 2025 season has a lot of attention on it never drains in Southern California inis for those in the noo uh iie pinball Jim bedo all the great uh staff and volunteers that put on the world's largest uh open I think this year it was like 354 3 um 50 plus players minimum and it was a lot of fun the banks were interesting uh it was good to see all our pinball friends and uh we have a special episode this time because we are joined by the winner of the 2025 spoiler alert uh Maine division a playoffs and finals uh Zach McCarthy and I'm very very happy to have him here so uh with that uh thank you Zach for joining us Joe do you want to say anything to start yeah no Joe and here um no it's it's great tournament uh happy to be back uh and yeah I'm really excited again into this thanks thanks zmac for joining us yeah welcome zmac um thank you as we as we get into this um we're just going to ask you a couple questions before we got get into the analysis uh of the finals and the three games which had a amazing amazing finish so uh first just tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from how you got introduced to pinball and we'll go from there yeah well I'm uh from Colorado a Conor for Colorado um and as far as getting into pinball uh my I was I feel like I was I was born into it right so I uh my parents uh had games when I was growing up so there was never a time when my basement wasn't filled with pinball machines really um you I can't even imagine I it's it's it's literally it's always been part of my life uh pinball was your dad the main player or did you have brothers and sisters do you have siblings that played or was it just uh your parents um I mean yeah I feel like my my whole family played I have a brother um Jack and he he played too growing up but he didn't really love the competitive side of things so got you know he doesn't play play competitions or anything nice um but but yeah you know my parents play they still play they're playing in Colorado my my dad owns an arcade um and you know my mom is a big big part of the uh bells and shimes League uh in Colorado so yeah that's awesome so what AE age do you think you got really focused on uh deciding you wanted to compete um my first tournament ever was when I think I was four maybe five that's awesome um yeah so did you get a little did you get a stool to step on oh believe I had a stool yeah for the first couple of years you know carrying that thing around um you know in like these grungy bar areas right you know playing pinball um yeah I feel like I was always interested in playing pinball competitively um you know there was never never a time where I really wasn't and it was only like when I was able to start traveling and you know I I was actually good enough to you know do well in those tournaments that like you know was really took off and really started having a good time dude that's awesome um I I can't imagine what it would have been like I I when I got into this I and into the competitive side I keep kicking myself I'm like man give me like 30 years ago when I had better reflexes I wish I got into this when I was younger but uh it must have been a trip going to these competitions and you know places normally kids don't go to but barcades you know by and large at least you have the shiny lights in it it makes it safe so great that is that is really cool to here I'm not going to go into too much of your background I know you probably answered a lot of those questions but I want to get to your thoughts on this year in dis um last year's finals congrats again on the the backto back um what do you think about the bank from last year to this year I know there was a lot of uh chatter when we were doing trivia in the Discord trying to figure out uh what was going to be uh revealed once we saw Kingpin it was like okay what's really going on um we're going to get Big Bang Bar next so what are your thoughts on last year's Bank versus this one yeah I mean this year's Bank was definitely a lot wackier than last year's right like there's no Kingpin last year um you know I feel like there was maybe four or five B Williams titles and there was like four Sterns or whatever this year there was two Sterns like yeah three B Williams you know it was definitely like Jim Unleashed right all the god Lees all the Seas right everything everything he could one um but even with that I feel like this year compared to last year um the games were overall like safer maybe the setups were maybe a little bit easier and like it was easier to find consistent games compared to last year do you think that I don't remember if you go ahead go ahead I'm just gonna I don't remember if you two were there not last year um yeah go ahead yeah no last year was my first indis so this year I was like all right I got it down you know he's got four Sterns I'm going to put one on my card and then this year there were two and it was like uh 80 minute wait for Jaws and I was like okay uh I learned a lesson each year at indisk last year was don't volunteer for like eight hours and then do commentary because you won't have enough time this year don't pick a game when you're tired for your game five that you have no idea how to play and get a zero on it and ruin the card so that was my that was my lesson this year um uh I did better than last year but it would it would have been nice to you know get a little a couple more Whoppers but yeah for sure this year's Bank um I was going to ask you if you felt the ti the tilts were tighter this year or last year I felt like they were kind of fair this year we were I was watching the footage on um Grand lizard and Johnny neonic seemed a little tight but I didn't think that the first two games you guys played were too obscene you know with Rush um Jeff tas's you know joke was oh no the rocks are coming but you guys were able to make some decent moves this year so what are your thoughts yeah I definitely agree I I feel like the first thing I noticed in my like initial games that I was playing was that the the tilts were way looser than in previous years I mean kind of pretty much across the board I remember Jaws was super loose Elton was super loose um you know a bunch of them were super loose you know there were there were some like Johnny was a little bit on the tighter side um you know and I think Grand wizard was slightly on the tighter side but not bad definitely like super playable and that's something I really like about Jim setups normally um is that he will give you pretty loose tilts um you know his games are set up hard but he still lets you show off your skill by you know moving the gamees show off your nudging so yeah I mean you need it and and that's a good transition um uh to kind of the strategy that you take because I was thinking about the worlds and I don't remember when I was watching it and like watching Zar on car hop versus I think it was Arvid just some of the moves they were making and it didn't seem like they weren't they weren't being punished for making a move you should be allowed one I know everybody jokes about the Beast last year where you were flip tilting uh it was I it was a lot of fun um but but I just I think that's the way to go so um I think one of the questions I have when watching these tournaments and sort of figuring out the mindset of people that are there and what they're doing like do you have a grow go-to strategy when you're trailing and you need to make a comeback I think it obviously depends on the pin what's available but are you going the safer routes or the riskier routes and the reason I bring that up is because your ball three on Grand lizard there was a moment where Kaye mentions hey I think this is the route you should go on the center spinner because it's lit and you're only down x amount of points versus trying to backhand uh the cave lock which was not always guaranteed because of the fat rubber on the on the the post and so you're trying to you're trying to manage that do you have sort of a mindset where you're going and you're you're pacing around the arena of what you're going to do do you like the safer routes or do you like the risk career routes um I mean I think I think there's a lot of like Dynamics in play that decide like what what your strategy is going to be where I mean for example indisk um the scoring in finals is 42 one Z so it's much more rewarding for first place versus you know second or third compared to like pimber style or whatever so that's definitely like it rewards riskier play in that in order to normally Advance around um you need to win one of the three games at least and then do mediocre on the other two and then in finals you really need to win two of the three games to win the tournament so in that sense I think you definitely are going for riskier strategies maybe you're taking more multiballs rather than shooting center Spinners to boost up the value or whatever yeah but on the other hand I was just gonna say on the other hand in finals um I think it's super easy to just you know it's it's way more stressful and people have a tendency to blow it and you kind of just want to be able to put something on the board and just be like ahead going into ball three um and so you just you're just point pressing initially and maybe yeah it doesn't give you an unbeatable score but it gives you a challenging score to catch and that that added pressure can be a lot yeah that phrase Point pressing was something I learned this uh this um finals at indisk because Kaylee mentioned and I was like yeah he's trying to separate himself I think it was a ball two of grand lizard because you know who knows who's going to leave you a lock and if you're going up the center spinner you don't want to you know again leave anything for the next person on ball three so um Switching gears just a little uh if pinball didn't exist would you have another competitive hobby are you a tinker do you like video games what's what's your other thing do you have you know do you as the kids say do you touch grass and go [Laughter] outside um yeah if I if I didn't play Pinball I mean obviously that's that's a lot of my time right um feel like I would I don't I don't do anything else super competitively at least right now like in in high school obviously I did I did robotics stuff like that and had a great time with that um and I imagine I would do similar things but I feel like if I didn't do pinball there would definitely have to be something else you know super competitive in my life just I I feel like I I got to have that thing you know like that did you ever high stress did you ever have a point where you could have like when I was a kid the thing that brought me into this you know sci-fi Arena if you will we'll just call it something overarching like that was you know I got my first NES with uh Mario brother so that put me on the video video game path so I didn't really get into pinball till I worked at Chuck-E-Cheese when I was a teenager and they had a whirlwind um but I've always been on the video game path and you know two since three years ago I've decided to I I found this hobby again so have have you ever had sort of that fork in the path where you could choose or was it always just pinball um I mean I feel like yeah I mean I was I was born into it and that's definitely play a large part of like oh this is this is the path I stayed on so I'm gonna keep staying on it but you know of course I I do enjoy it a lot and I think pinball has shaped a lot of what I enjoy just because it's always been there yeah it's a great hobby but yeah for sure for sure but yeah I don't know if I if I grew up and instead of having pinballs I had like a a b alley in my basement or something I I imagine I would be bowling right now probably list you could just have one hobby for yourself leave the bowlers alone right right that's awesome so uh the next question I'm actually really interested because you've done it for so long if you met you've met so many people and the thing I love about this Hobby and I was telling Josh Sharpe at indisk because he asked me you know what do you think about this this is now your your first Year's done of serious competitive pinball I said honestly this is my endgame like I love the competitive have seen uh at my age it's nice to be able to still like be able to improve and compete on a level I'm not going down to the you know the local why and trying to um be LeBron so this is a really good hobby for me um is what is the best piece of advice you've received from somebody about uh competitive pinball um it's probably I mean growing up right like I definitely I I think my my pinball coach you know Adam Adam leof of course and of course my own family right um but so I mean he gave me so much advice you know as far as like oh here's how you do these basic flipper skills and things like that but I feel like the most important thing that I got is you know focusing on your mental game and that you know pinball looks like it's mostly just flipper skills and you know maybe some rules knowledge and all that it largely is but there's also a huge component of um your mental game and I think that's really like the decider of your consistency probably the biggest decider is like you're able to stay calm Under Pressure right and always be performing at your um you know near your best so I think I'm I'm sure Adam had that discussion with me when I was young right like you know not not raging all the time and keeping it cool head and the importance of that in performing so that's that's probably what I would say the most valuable piece we got to part that to Sterling I saw his escape from Lost World rage tilt and it was deserved I get it but uh it's just it's funny because I remember being that age and like you know you're we've all been young yeah your horor are going up you're you're like why didn't I I used to get so mad not winning an excite bike but I think the the details about handling pressure and nerves I think that's a good transition I know Joe has a question about that that he was going to ask you go ahead yeah yeah no I think that's awesome um I when you get to this like the highest level like you're at um there are those other factors that you kind of have to consider like you know the mental game where it's like I feel like you know especially for these finals that we're about to review like any four of you I think you know have obviously have a chance to win but and and the skills you know needed to get there but um but it's those other factors like the mental game that really kind of stand out and um push you up there to to succeed so that's uh that's good to hear yeah uh What uh do you have any like goals or like a singular goal for yourself this year or um um I mean I think like winning IFA I think would be the number one goal let's all do that right uh nice you know I've never I've never won IFA obviously I've never I've never really come to top four in it so you know if I could do well in Austria that would be awesome um and then I guess also I'd love to close the gap and IFA between me Asher and and Jason you know get in there for 2026 and you know throw my throw my name in the ring so yeah nice um do you have any kind of pregame rituals or like meals or anything or like when did you start kind of I know you you Pace a lot you know during uh during fin or during competition like did you start doing that recently or is that a kind of a newer thing yeah um yeah as far as like meals and stuff I not I don't think I really have any like I don't have any like specific meal you know it's not like I I eat spaghetti every you know every tournament finals and that makes me win um I I try not to eat much during finals um kind of just like snacking throughout the day like getting some constant energy but I never feel full right I like that's kind of key you don't want to feel full and tired and whatever sluggish um and then yeah definitely definitely the pacing uh as it's far as um as far as like when I started doing it I mean I feel like I've almost always paced just like in my life I've always paced it's like whenever I need to like think about something or you know plan something I'm I'm pacing you know um just helps me helps helps get the blood flowing I guess I don't know you know helps me think um and then for pinball you know I think I really started doing it after like Expo 2022 I remember I had like really tough match against Dalton and I started pacing like crazy then ever since then I think I really started facing during uh tournaments I think that was the start of it y denim lightning yeah I feel like it's one of those things where it's like along the same lines of like you chewing gum or like just kind of doing something mundane to just help you focus on you know whatever you're trying to do you have an Apple Watch do you keep TR I do I was gonna say do you keep track of your steps yes so after indisk if I remember correctly on on Sunday I walked I had 23,000 steps I think on Sunday so that was I'm telling youing fall back on all that pacing I'm you you've got the Olympic uh medals in your site for walking competition absolutely cool um so I know indisk is a very uh it's on the card format of tournaments um last year was also the first time of attended indisk so and and that was my first card format tournament um how do you as a player decide which games to play like in what order on like a five game card um for example like do you kind of pick your strongest game first do you save that for last um do you kind of throw in entries to find games that you like I know it was a pretty big bank this year it's like 21 games total or do you kind of try to focus on like the same five games and just kind of stick to that and try to you know get the best out of those five yeah um I definitely I mostly stick with the same games there's definitely like if this game's burned me five times in a row I'm probably I'm gonna move to something else and give it a shot but yeah I mean like after after qualifying at indis this year I maybe played a third of the bank going into finals whatever you know hadn't played um you know I hadn't played Grand lizard haden't played time fantasy I I I did I played time fantasy once um uh Lost World lots lots of games I I hadn't played much going into the finals and you know having to kind of sight read it which I don't know I don't know how good or bad that is of an idea um but so no one strict with the same ones and I think I learned um when I started playing card formats right that you should always start with the most dangerous Games first that way if they go bad then you can you know easily get back in line void the card right you're not wasting all this time on your easy and long and safe consistent games to then throw it away on the you know more risky games but I also think like for for me to have a successful game on a card like it makes it it's easy easier to have a successful game when I have like good good meat on the card right I need like a good foundation and then I'll then I'll do my risky games and go from there so you know end this this year I was starting with Elon mostly um and that was one of my better games just to like get a good score something strong to work on um and then I would move on to you know some of the some of the less consistent ones like Kingpin and um Labyrinth for me and then finish up on some one of the more consist ones like Jaws um so yeah that's that's my Approach at least I was going to say what did Elton John do to you I know you had a really good game on it were you getting revenge on it or no no no I I actually I found that Elton John to be like my favorite game at indisk I thought it played pretty pretty solid did you hear any different opinions about that because I know some people were scared I was watching people sort of approach it and say no it's not it's playing too fast or it's just the outlanes are hungry but I was interested to see what your thoughts or maybe you heard differently I mean it's it's like a it's a total accuracy test right you never really have to shoot anything dangerous so if you're able to make your shots like it's super good game you know I remember I watched Jason play it he didn't really know the game very well in his first game he got you know like a top five for the weekend or whatever just because he's accurac he's accurate and that game rewards accuracy um so I think if you if you were accurate and you were able to make all your shots and get to your first signature stage multiball you were it was pretty set and not too bad to get there but as far as like schmeg points go that game has pretty much nothing so nice nice um I know we talked about pacing a little bit um and like handling kind of pressure and like nerves do you think that there's kind of added pressure to defend a title as you know as being the reigning indust Champion or does that kind of help you fuel you to you know play better knowing that you've already been there um I definitely think I don't know if there's added pressure to like win again and that like know when I made final four if I didn't win I was at least satisfied with my position in that I I got to top four um you know that's that's I feel like it's kind of a goal is to always do at least reach top four um in a tournament um but as far as the earlier rounds for sure right like it would have sucked going out in quarters or round two just like not not reaching what I think I should reach um in that and and I feel like it almost makes those earlier rounds harder with like that added pressure of man I just really don't want to go out in quarters or whatever um but yeah I mean in later rounds I think it definitely is helpful it can it can fuel you give you some uh some good momentum you know help you help you get through some potentially tough moments so going back to your goals for this year what is the difference between you and the top three right now less events or less major wins because I know you're you're like 200 300 behind one and two right or is it decay that's hit you or are you um I I haven't checked I didn't look at the complete 20 20 games um I think efficiency is a little bit worse than eer and Jason's okay by about 10% or something is so that that I think helps hurts a lot and so just have to play more I guess and Bo that efficiency up um and then yeah I mean do doing better in Majors I guess know I mean all all three of us are doing well in Majors so it's it's I feel like it's pretty tough it's like after indis for for main it's like difference between me and Jason was Whoppers that then gets multiplied by your efficiency you know like it's like when when you all do well it's there's really no movement so it's tough for sure it's hard because you imagine backtack in dis champ you're going to jump but you're also you know in this upper echelon where no one it's very rare air you're you're kind of sitting up there um and then if you're always finishing close to each other it's hard to make that move uh so yeah obviously congratulations on your big win what was the prize for winning indis 20 25 so yeah uh the prize was 500 bucks and a new unboxed Stern Pro and your choic is um so I was able to send uh Zach Sharpe at Stern my top three choices of games and uh he sent me back uh a D and D Pro so very thankful for that nice um nice yeah so get that in a couple or my parents will get that in a couple of weeks uh you know sending it back to Colorado so yeah so how many pins do you guys own now back in Colorado yeah my parents own 40ish oh I think it's yeah yeah it's big arcade right lot of games that's awesome yeah well congrats again that's I I know you were gonna say you pick Venom Pro for all three but that's okay I I don't take any offense I don't take any offense to that um I was going to ask what's the most intense moment of the 2025 indis for you I think I know what it is so we're going to skip that question um so again congratulations for me and Joe uh really really great performance at this time right now we're going to go to our uh tournament footage analysis we'll go over to three games Rush Grand lizard and Johnny neonic with Zach uh about you know some of the strategies some of the just review of what happen um so Zach if you want to follow along on the uh outline you can and let me go go ahead and put this here it's going to be loud for a second let me turn off the audio there we go all right so um again indisk 2025 brought to you by iie pinball thank you iie pinball for all the coverage um your finals commentators for the first two games were Jeff tiis Kaylee George and stepen Bowen uh really great to hear them on the uh on the mic and this in case you just need a quick recap of the format in dis is card format there's a main classics classics Target match play um which is the Thursday tournament a high stakes which was non- Whopper they had a pin Slash this year on two jaws machines which was a great addition I thought that was a lot of fun and a really great break from uh the traditional sort of grinding on the cards um there was also a women's tournament um congrats to the winners there I believe Kaylee Campbell won the women's there and so what we're going to do now is go over each game uh this is the part where a lot of you have come up to me and said hey uh this is great uh I skipped this part so if you are going to skip this part that's okay maybe you'll listen to zMAX here so the first game Rush a borg Design This was not in the main bank this was in the women's Bank correct gentlemen yes that's correct yeah so um why was this chosen for the main bank because eer hadn't picked it in the prior rounds yeah so that that was the only modern available from to pick so he I think he was forced to kind of pick this in the last round right sorry to catch you off Zack oh yeah that's that's correct yeah he had to play it in the finals because um there you have to pick the monitor that you bring in or the game that you bring in at some point in the tournament he hadn't picked Rush yet and so he was forced to pick it and was that a direct result of the fact that there were only uh I'm trying to figure out what the moderns were available in the main bank it was Jaws Guardians and what else was considered a modern Labyrinth um yeah so Labyrinth um Godzilla Elton John oh the Sega Godzilla was considered a modern that's right interesting what are your thoughts on that because I'm I'm wondering like I don't know when that was made but I'm trying to think of the other DMD titles that were available like Lost World it was there uh Jurassic Park lost world was that considered a mid then so Jurassic Park L world was considered a mid um I think voler was considered a new which was really interesting and then jackpot was a mid um everything everything older than jackpot was in M as well or up until like about Grand lizard or Cyclone all right so rush rush is the first game um to come up on the uh the finals format your player order was eer Zac Zer and vgo ball one uh I am not a rush expert I the first time I played it I asked R in the Discord the tpn Discord hey how do I play this he was like uh just shoot things that are flashing I was like everything's flashing I don't know what what I'm doing here I couldn't figure out I learned a trick from useac in the UK open about the um sort of slow ski pass to bump over to get it on the flipper to hit the time machine a lot more directly because I don't know if I was having trouble with the backhand or the forehand uh at the UK open so thank you for that so uh zmac why don't you tell us you know what your thoughts are on Rush maybe this I mean you guys didn't play it so you couldn't really have any hey this is you know the backhand is not there for me uh what are your thoughts on Rush itself and how to approach it yeah so I actually did get an opportunity to play it because in my quarterfinal group uh Timber or bus driver chose Rush Oh I got a full game of practice on it um and I thought it played super fast um a little little squirly but like the outlanes were not terrible the you could definitely move it a decent amount so it wasn't it wasn't awful um but you know my my plan going in was to focus more on the uh uh Far Cry multiball you know getting your locks there stack it with a multiball and get you know 100 million plus through there and just like get some initial value on the table is that the most valuable multiball like if you had a bare naked multiball is that the one you're going for yeah far car is definitely the most valuable of the um or headlong flight is probably technically the most valuable but it's very very deep into the game so you're mostly focusing on Far Cry if you want good value I think with how this this particular Rush copy was set up the um Far Cry locks are set to medium but also it took eight time machine shots instead of the kind of normal three to start that first time machine multiball um so yeah I noticed a lot of players were going for that Far Cry locks instead yeah so this was definitely yeah go ahead go ahead but yeah definitely they messed around with the settings on this one um and you know I learned I learned the previous game that uh medium Far Cry locks um so it it does two things and I I only didn't know it did the second thing but the first thing it does is when you hit complete the light lock targets um I guess the light light light lock targets um it allows the right ramp to light the lock um on and it times out after about 15 seconds so that's the first thing you have to hit the right ramp within 15 seconds or else you're back to the Target phase um but the second thing is that normally with Far Cry you can lock you have to lock the first ball in the upper scoop and then lock the second ball in either scoop um but on this one that was not the case you had to lock both in the upper scoop oh wow you know was definitely a a little bit more challenging of you know having to hit an extra one of those side shots did you find your upper flipper shots more consistent or just tough to dial in um tough to dial in I guess I both of my games on it were were not very good so how did you feel like almost the entire game I was gonna say how did you do in the quarterfinals with it so I got I got second on it but I got 20 million so it was not a it was not a good second either it thank God thought I got second I don't know how this happened sort of thing I like I like Bowen's quote from Joe that he put in the notes it says I like Rush when I pretend to play X-Men that's pretty funny out yeah that's pretty funny I noticed the um shooting the left orbit sometimes on Rush you can just hold that upper flipper up and it'll just go into the scoop but it looked like a lot of the times it would just hit right above it so it wasn't really even a free like left orbit shot you know like you'd have to still kind of shoot that deliberately I think that's the super tough thing with these um with rushes that are so fast is that those orbits it never goes in on almost any of the ones that are you know at larger tournaments just because it's it's waxed it's clean it's it's playing faster than it was designed to really on um if you had Choice uh would this be a game you would have picked as a modern or would you uh if you if you I mean I guess maybe Elton John would have been there instead I'm trying to think of the moderns again uh is this your is this not your first choice I guess I should ask that I think going into this tournament right not playing this Rush beforehand absolutely like Rush is probably my favorite modern um LCD Stern it's I think it's a super good pick for me um but with this rush it was so squirly and you know not having much practice on it that I I definitely think uh Elton would have been more tus I guess gotcha yeah there's a ton of good code on this I know rid and Company have worked really hard to to make this uh special if you've ever watched Dalton pinball um he's put up some amazing streams on it some of the stuff got affected by his own play on it uh this is one I I just don't have I will say I don't have a lot of uh experience on but it is fun to watch uh and it was fun to watch this final so you know we have the footage playing now um if you are listening to the podcast just know there's a video format as well and I would strongly suggest watching that so you can kind of see what we're looking at as well so ball one comes up um what do you think of the tilt on this rush I know each of you were able to make a decent move and get to the two rocks uh two dangers but it felt it felt like they were earned like we were talking about earlier yeah I think compared to other games at indisk this was on the tighter side but had less to do with this game being especially tight and more on other games were pretty darn loose but um I thought the Tilt was was very fair you know one good move and I think Rush is a game that should have a tighter tilt you know it's it's it's a real accuracy test every shot pretty much returns safely to the flippers and so if you miss shots on it you should be punished for that yeah shooting through the Pops I mean it's just it reminds me of um uh uh White Water I think U is the Congo one through the pops no the Congo one has the hippo on the on the right it's just those tight little uh avenues that you have that you just are trying to trying to make sure you squeeze through and then if you're holding up the upper flipper you're hoping that it falls right into that that upper scoop so eer ball one makes one danger move or one big move for a danger starts big money can't can't find the sidot left out lane drain 3 million ball one zmac yourself you light the Far Cry lock uh you get your right ramp standups right ramp to qualify at the side scoop you get a double danger you hit the right sling washer to the left out L this was funny because Jeff was like uh Jeff was like I think he hit the washer he didn't even hit the sling and so B was like it's so quick I don't even remember it uh and you ended up with around three million or so too do you remember that yeah there's I feel like there's a lot of um it's like these outlanes that hits the side and you like it has makes this sound like this funk against it you know it's like metallic Funk against the wall and as soon as you hear it you just know the ball is gone it's straight down there's no momentum on the ball um and I I remember that was one of those uh one of those drains yeah I noticed um mode wise are you I was trying to figure out what people were going for so it looks like lav lava is the common preference uh on um on Rush Maybe I'm Wrong there do you have any thoughts on that cuz they were getting uh some decent points out of it I know Zer ended up with 16 million only on it but ended up with 40 million he had um good shots on his time machine hitting those accurately he had two weapons uh and they were explaining how one of the weapons spots the shots which could be hu huge if you have maybe a combo ready um or the obviously the other weapon is uh the adal I think when it turns green it's for the adal do you have preference on modes to start or or what are you choosing yeah you know I think lva is like a that's a All or Nothing it's ball three I got I got nothing else let's let's run it and see what happens sort of uh mod in my opinion um so I I generally don't include it as like a starting mode it's super inconsistent as far as it's scoring um I generally find Limelight to be the best value and so I will start with Limelight and try to stack it with my um Far Cry and that's a pretty solid foundation um and then after that the next mode I'll try to do is big money um the reason is so big money one of the main shots in it is the center time machine and when the time machine is lit instead of getting you like a nasty return back down to the slings or down the middle or whatever um it'll return it to the upper flipper and so that's a great way to make prog ress towards your um time machine multiball especially when you need to hit the time machine eight times you know so get get those done a little bit safer and so we're going to have it explain like I'm five moment choosing your mode is that before the ball launch or are you having to hit a shot to to pick which mode so do you see you can kind of see the records around the Playfield there's one on every main shot um and so when you at the start of your ball like right now the records are different colors there's a blue one on the right orbit right now there's an orange one on the spinner Lane and each color coordinates to a mode so orange is working man blue is Spirit of Radio um pink is Big Money yada yada um so when you make a record Shot um you need a certain number of Records to light your mode and then mode lights on the center time machine and then the number or yeah so like most of a color you have is is the mode you start on so for example when you start the game you only need one record to light your mode you shoot a you know a pink record and start your mode it'll be big money um at the start awesome thank you for that yeah that's I will clip that for everybody so they could they can use that as a good uh a good base so vgo comes so Zer uh had a decent ball like I said 40 million ball one game one of the finals on Rush um I thought his time machine shots were really nice and accurate cuz I know uh F finding that and dialing it in for me uh is a little tough at the beginning because you think it's somewhere on the right flipper maybe the backhand will get you there and then you're like no no let me just forehand it um but he he had some good moves there and so uh vgo steps up he had a big move to say kind of a shimmy out of the right outlane um Far Cry right ramp was ready lavila was ready uh but then he had a quick sling drain so he gets about 1 million so you're looking at 3340 and one so ball two eer comes up uh he's into big money uh I notice he was still struggling a little on that upper flipper shot um but he had a couple nice cash outs on Big Money started red Baretta Baretta multiball so uh how do you start that yeah so um to light a time machine multiball you have to keep bashing the time machine on most rushes it's only four hits to light your first time machine but on this one it was eight um and then the uh the dead end to the left of the time machine when the time machine multiball is lit cycle between the three different possible multiballs to start off so it can either be subdivisions um red Baretta or fly by night um red Baretta is normally the default multiball um so like if you don't shoot the dead end at all you you'll get red Baretta but it's also by far the least valuable one um so there's a little bit of risk right do you want to go for that dead end and potentially drain off the risky shot or you want to just take red Baretta um and go with it do you have a preferred mode that you would stack with it like big money I think big money is a solid option um Limelight is the easiest good value mode that's definitely the best one I would say in this position um so yeah there's also Spirit of Radio which I love um I didn't get the chance to do any Spirit of Radio Shenanigans with this rush it was a little too hard but that one can be super explosive most valuable mode in the game yeah this Rush didn't treat you well we we'll get through your balls quickly don't wor true yeah very quickly but you know it it sets yourself up set yourself up maybe it help mentally uh for the next two but yeah so user's ball two he starts red Baretta with big money uh he's got the mystery gets the adab ball uh collects a few jackpots gets to about 74 million um and he made uh you know there's a a good note here makes a Grimace face after Double draining out of multiball because he had lavila ready with record boost and I guess the combo is Right ramp right orbit is that correct yes right ramp right orbit it's a two-way combo so y gotcha so he ends up with about 76 million on his ball two you come up uh for your ball too and let me just go back a little uh the ball was stuck in Sling Town Bowen made a great uh comment he's like well thanks for the ball save while I was waiting between the slings uh it just ran out uh you got your Far Cry lock one done unfortunately got a reject from the right straight down the middle it was just quick it was a very quick uh drain uh and everybody on the commentary noticed it's sometimes it's just too quick for you even to react no matter how good or uh you know your reflexes are um so you're at about five million Zer comes up he uh makes another big move for two dangers starts big money with red Baretta uses his addaball collects a Super Jackpot for 14 million now again the scores are 765 right now so 14 million is huge and you just said you got second with 20 million so those are valuable points um he has a really good ball and obviously uh he's a really really really good player how long have you been playing with uh Jason um no I think I met Jason at the pin Masters when it was in Colorado in 2020 kind of the last tournament before Co um you know I I didn't I wasn't going to Papa when I was a kid so you know I didn't get to meet him there but yeah you know I I played with Jason in a pin golf qualifying group and yeah it was you know he was amazing player then he's an amazing player now obviously do you have distinct skills that you know you've picked up from him by any chance is there any technique you've learned from him um I don't know if there's anything specific um know I've obviously I think Jason is the most accurate of us of us kids really yeah um and I think he's super good at keeping things um under control like there's I feel like there's kind of like a traditional um pinball player you know who's very accurate and and plays the game right and just is and keeps things you know under control and and in in good form and I think Jason is like that sense like the most optimal player there ever has been in those senses so I definitely I admire that in him and you know when you're playing with against him you got got to do it's going to be a marathon on almost every game you know I remember playing against him at at pimber the game lasted for four hours you know I was gonna say I remember the aiq uh where you oh yeah re the aiq yeah and it was just like everybody has their Strat for it but he had another and I know I was sitting next to eer and you and eer was like hey this is what we were doing but now it's getting publicized cuz Jason's doing it was the long game Strat of reality uh I forgot the next one Soul Gem and then drain out of reality or let let Thanos collect something so you can play reality again oh I think it was time the one that spots the shot so uh yeah that was a lot of fun because you definitely have to you have to put on your your best when you're playing uh Jason absolutely absolutely he's a he's a great competitor you know there's a reason he's number one in the world yeah I remember my first interaction with Jason was playing against him um up in Delaware the lavish uh pinball Collective and we were playing like an older kind of em I think was like Blackjack or something and um it was it was maybe a game that he hadn't had a lot of practice on it was like maybe they just brought it in recently and uh i' kind of taking a lead like maybe on inv balls one and two but he uh I talked to him after the game he he obviously won the game um on his last ball but he uh he said he had to change his strategy multiple times because um just from like kind of seeing other people play in the game and like he really just adjusted so quickly on the Fly and like you know he just something that's like the extra Edge that you have as like one of those higher level players that just you you adapt to you know what the game's giving you and also like you know just just being so quick to quick on your feet you know just to to adjust to to the game and what it's giving you yeah I think erra's also really good at that um you know they're they're both super super good at that as at adapting where and that those sort of skills definitely are shown at a tournament like indisk where you know you're playing Kingpin where nobody has played a Kingpin before in their life or you're playing Galactic tank force and you know most a lot of people haven't really gone deep into Galactic tank force and or bone Busters or deadly weapon you know any any of the got leavs that hundreds of got leavs that Jim somehow finds you know it's it's a it's a big skill to be able to um quickly pick up you know what's going on in a game how that game plays um you know what what pattern am I do I need to get into to succeed in this game and and yeah they're they're super successful at that yeah so it was uh it was you know ball two's coming up and you've got Zer uh running through what he can on red Baretta and big money gets 29 million out of his multiball ends up with 135 million which is clearly a solid solid score um I would be interested to see I should have gone back and looked at the uh entries um when the women women's Bank were uh putting them through and also through the the playoffs so vgo steps up uh starts Leva gets some huge shots in Leva really good combos gets a fun little left out lane drain but he's sitting pretty with 75 million so he's right there with eer who's around 76 ball three comes up and we've got you know first game ball three got to figure out what's left for you on the board uh he starts aser starts laa uh and uh Kaylee mentions that he had a really nice live catch uh to complete one of these combos he almost hit I think he hit three in a row or got close to it for Leva but he ends at about 125 million to put him at the time in second place so uh unfortunately for you um as we come to here ball that did not happen yeah you get the infamous uh Borg uh you had a quick Borg out to the right drain I don't even I I could move it forward I think it happened so quickly but uh what were you thinking going into ball three did you have if you remember like what what was your plan uh going into it yeah I my plan was I was going to um IIT I was going to take my upper Loop um shot because it was lit for big money and try to stack that into my multiball um get some value there so it was going for Far Cry and big money just to start out um and then I would probably work towards my time machine after that to try to catch uh Jason but this would hopefully get me above the uh vgo Usher area but not happened yeah you got the the left left bounce to the right uh Borg in lane and then I I really thought the trajectory of that ball was coming back to the left so when it did a little Back Spin maybe it had back spin on it it went out the right I was like that is that's wild like that feels like that's what happens to most people so it gives some not that it it's good for you but it gives some sense of relief to other players like okay it's not just me that it happens to even no matter how much you're bumping it on Borg designs are you um actively nudging more do you know if you find yourself um doing that or is that just you know you're just normally doing what you do um and I feel like when you get bored it's not really like a oh I should have nudged harder or anything you know it's kind of kind of is what it is I mean there's the best save for it is probably the wicked shimmy you know um out of that outline when it happens but it's it's so quick it's it's tough to tough to react to it yeah I totally hear you so you end up with 11 million um you're taking a zero for the first round which doesn't put you out of it but obviously you're always trying to at least get a point um in this scoring format 42 1 Z Zer steps up he has some some crazy side to side action to start I thought he was done for um starts Tom Sawyer hits his 123 into Far Cry multiball excuse me he's rolling uh he has a double danger he gets a double danger after trying to cradle separate which I didn't expect because I know a lot of the times when you're cradle separating you're not putting too much force on it so the fact that the ball found its way uh edging out was a little surprising he gets multiple Sawyer shots to Pro progress through the mode collects his big points and ends up with about 203 million which I'm sure he was super happy with vgo steps up um are you watching uh or are you still kind of walking around at that time or what are you thinking after done with ball three and you're like okay game one's done what are we doing here yeah I mean I'm always pacing so I guess I'm somewhere in the background and you know if you've never been to indisk um but there's all these games and there's like huge projector and so you know when I'm facing in the background I can still see what's going on a little bit um you know check in see who's still playing and and whatnot um but yeah I mean I think for winning a papa style final you you really need to take the four points on two games right um there's there's ways you can win without that right if if it splits evenly or maybe the 88 happens but really 75 85% of the time the person who wins is the person who won two of the three games so making fourth sucks obviously on the first game but it's not I don't think it's terrible it's that worse of a position compared to third or second really um it's it's basically okay I have three games I need to win two of them I lost one of them I I better win those other two you know do or die moment right yeah yeah because because when it came to game three obviously you you you controlled your own future and it sucks when like that sometimes but it's also I don't know for me personally it it gives you a sense of accountability like look I've got to do this no one else is going to do this for me I've got to push through and figure out what I need to do to win um so I don't know if it makes the win sweeter for you for me it would uh um that's that's kind of my thinking on it yeah for sure for sure yeah so V I think the z44 is no the 044 is always a a good feeling to have do you prefer the 4210 or the 3210 oh 4210 yeah any day of the week it's I think it's far far far superior um I mean I'm a little biased I think I'm a more explosive player and so the extra rewards we taking first is beneficial for me um but yeah I think it's just way more fun and interesting format overall I feel like I had a bit of a a zmac moment yesterday at a uh we just had like a small local tournament but um it it was you know the same 42 one0 scoring and um I was driving the bus for the group and uh you know picked the first game I had to go first and then lost like I put up you know a horrible score on the first game and I knew it was going to come in last but I feel like that that kind of lull in time where you're just waiting for the game to end knowing that you took a zero is uh it's it can sometimes feel like an eternity where it's just like you I just want to move on to the next game you know and um I mean like you said with the 4210 it's like you just have to win two games right so you just have to move on to the next game and with a plan to you know obviously win out and then you know win the tournament so yep absolutely Joe do you play in between um balls or games like if you're waiting uh I mean if if the opportunity is there I I like to stay warm um I I don't particularly find a Solace and pacing myself so so uh yeah I mean like if if there are other games available to play I'll just kind of you know flip around just to get you know my my hands busy and um you know wait for the next game to start zmac have you ever I mean I don't know if Pac how long you've been pacing we'll just call it that for now not to put a negative connotation on it because I do it too um but have you ever found yourself uh keeping yourself warm playing you know free play pins practice pins or do you just like to kind of wait until you get back get your hands back on the flippers of the game you're actually competing on yeah I mean I think for smaller local things like yeah you know I like playing pinball so there's a pinball available I I'll play it around or whatever um but for indisk I normally don't do that um just because I think there's some definitely some changes in how flipper feel and game feel H between between games and that can affect you know how you play on certain things I I prefer to stay more locked in for larger tournaments um but I feel like pacing is what keeps me warm right it's like it's keeping my heart rate going I feel like I'm still in it you know I'm not I'm not getting cold just sitting on the sideline yeah no you're you're definitely you know pumping adrenaline through your body and it's great mentally because I don't know sometimes it clears my mind I I I remember at Papa 21 I was walking around uh for the classics uh playoffs and I was just like this is great I can walk around and by the time I get a lap in maybe it's my turn and if that's great that means the other players didn't do anything and if I need a couple laps uh I got some work to do so um uh game one's done your winner is Jason Zer with 203 million vgo in uh eer excuse me in second with 125 million vgo in third with 118 vgo I thought was going to take second um he had a failed tip pass at the end but he tilted out I don't know if he would have had enough bonus I think it was around 118 and he was close to eer cuz he was in uh he had red Baretta he had the adab ball uh he got the mystery addab ball he was working up cuz ball two he had 75 and he ended up with an extra 43 there I was surprised he tilted because I thought he might have had enough to cash catch eer but um unfortunately it was not enough he got the three so 4210 Zer echer vgo and zmac we go on to game two so before we start game two uh Zac do you have any final thoughts on Rush and Joe as well I don't think I got anything uh great game but that one played super fast so uh so yeah yeah on to the next all right so um one of the great things we had at the in our episode last episode for pincinnati was the minute torial so I want to make sure we shout out pinball 101 on YouTube I'll put the link in the video description we are going to watch a two-minute video on our next game on how to play it it is Grand lizard uh I fell in love with this at penberg last year um I was talking to rucko about it while she was watching I believe Jordan Des Shane just destroy it because I think he owns it and he had like six million and we were all just kind of she was waiting for her turn it was also in the um bash at the Berg bank but I thought it played really well I really like the way it was set up at indis disc I kind of wish I had taken the strategy of making this my Risk game and putting it as my first uh game on the card uh but you live you learn so let's watch this video real quick and we'll go from there appealing to herpetologists and pinball players alike Grand lizard Sports fast play Under the menacing gaze of a giant lizard head the basic strategy is to capture one ball then start two- Ball multiball by hitting the top right release Target Playfield scoring doubles during two- ball multiball the ball lock is easier to hit from the left flipper a post pass helps here although three ball multiball triples play field scoring the risk is locked balls may be stolen by other players during a multiplayer match the upper Playfield Target Banks keep the action fast for the top Bank hitting any Target freezes the flashing score value complete all Targets within the timeout period to collect flashing score the three cave targets Advance the cave value then light and award extra ball and special shooting into the cave Awards up to 40,000 advances the flashbang score if timing and starts blinking the 50,000 upper right shot hit the target within the timeout Peri perod to collect sweeping either Bank doubles their score and is very challenging advaned bonus multipliers and light Spinner by completing the lizard Targets this also increases Magna sa time indicated above the return Lanes press Magna save buttons to prevent outlane drains shoot the A and B ramps to light bonus hold over outlanes extra ball special and then score 50,000 collect bonus holdover via the right shoot hit the right target to collect extra ball and specials rolling through an in Lane flashes the mystery lamp shoot the ramp to collect the displayed mystery score [Music] after the last ball collect an additional multiplied bonus if the holdover is [Laughter] [Music] lck all right so I love the sounds on that game sorry you had to indulge me there they're great for sure yeah but um so this version uh I was surprised they mentioned that the Magna saves were on I don't know if I've ever seen them turned off for a competition uh but you had a huge rubber on the cave lock shot on the left ramp on the right side on the right post and then uh on the right ramp the Left Post had a a giant rubber it looked like I I'm pretty sure I'm seeing that correctly um uh the tiny flippers on the top and zipper tiny flippers and then zipper flippers on the bottom on the bottom uh basic strategy uh get your locks and then take advantage of the the multiplied play field and try to get the center spinner lit and just rip and and go up there I didn't realize there was a uh I think he said oh sweeping the targets up top doubles the value of whatever is lit that's interesting I didn't know that um thoughts on Grand lizard zmac and your uh approach seeing it as the second game in your bank you were scheduled to go fourth in this um this this round yeah it was really interesting um because I was I was the lowest seed going in to the final four and so I was expecting to go second on everything like like normal but um vgo and Jason chose you know second and third um rather than fourth so I gotta go fourth on both this and the last game um which which I'll take um at normally gr lizard is a pretty boring game you know it's super grindy you just shoot locks all day and then release and shoot spinner but um with uh tiny little flippers up top that's not really the case and giant rubbers of course um so yeah i' i' played this Grand lizard at uh IFA um when it was at Jim's house the previous year and I played it against user in our in our um top eight match and I got uh 10,000 I think I got something it was crazy it was it was very sad it was it was like under under 30k for sure not a single lock not a single release um no Spinners you know it was it was bad so um I didn't repeat that thank God but going into this I was like you know what when the three games were announced at the beginning I was thinking okay well I need to win two of these three games it's probably not going to be grand lizard so I need to win rush and then win Johnny um so you know taking fourth I was like okay well I guess I I better figure out how to win on GRE lizard because that's the only way what um do you think that Vigo and Zer chose different positions because of the potential lock the lock stealing potential um I think I don't know I think that Jason always likes going earlier rather than fourth you know he's he's a first sort of guy get the momentum going right right and you know like I was like I was saying earlier like when you're in the final four it's the stress is unlike you know any other round right like oh yeah it's those going forth can be pretty scary and pretty sketch so I think it's definitely reasonable to not want to be the last person and you know rather than be this be the Chaser of scores the one that people are chasing um because I think it's definitely easier to mess it up in in finals yeah no I think I think this this was probably other than ball three on um Johnny monic just because of the math that needed to be done this was my favorite sort of uh match to watch because of some of the intricacies that invol are involved in the one of two strategies either multiball or press the um Center spinner you know get it lit and try to separate your yourself there and it was interesting because the first ball eer locks one locks the second tilts out unfortunately leaves two for vgo so all vgo has to do is step up uh hit that top right target or lock lock the third ball in the bottom play field and user's at 242 after ball one vgo steals the multiball starts the three ball multiball loses one because once it comes out it's anybody's game it's not guaranteed you're going to be able to trap up and he has after that three you know three ball multiball he's got the triple Playfield he's got 60k so it's kind of like well I got the gift but I didn't get to I didn't get to use it so he rips the center spinner twice he's got his 2x bonus he still ends up with 200k he's less than eer after getting the gift of the three ball multiball so even if you're giving it it's not a guarantee that you're going to be able to take advantage um so Zer has no lock setup for him gets one lock and this was kind of my experience on Grand lizard he had like four or five shots on backhanding it off the left to get to the the the cave lock and he couldn't get it so he drains out he's got 232k did you find the backhand um unreliable I know you had a couple really good uh on the Fly shots to lock um you got one free lock from Zer on your first ball the smooth second lock shot we're watching it right now uh off the plunge uh you got in trouble this was fun to this all this game was also fun to watch because watching you guys juggle it and get it back under control or safety was just awesome it was not easy so I saw you guys fighting and sweating it out there um but your thoughts on the backhand and and your ball one yeah um you know I thought the backhand wasn't terrible um you I was able to find it at least a couple of times which was which was nice I I I never left a lock so that was that was good um yeah I found the release super tough I I don't think I made it a single ball so it was um you know normally on Grand lizard you you want to lock only one ball and then you know keep releasing and always being a two Ball but with with the releaseing those tiny flippers it was I felt like it was a better option just to go for three back hands yeah we're watching the footage of you right now getting to your your three ball I know um you got some 3x upper play field shots off uh the bonus hole and the spinner were lit you got a huge spinner shot um the way you drained on this one even even after this was a little unfortunate because um they drain at the same time obviously simal drain is not not what you want but sometimes it's it's going getting hectic and your face right there says it all you're like oh come on but um do you ever uh on this on this copy did you ever think about going left ramp or right ramp or just leaving it alone yeah I'm I'm a spinner M that's what I know and that's what I do so that's what I that's what I go for um yeah ramps if if I hit any ramps they were not on purpose I would say that that was flailing get the ball out of there sort of shots gotcha yeah you had 625 after ball one you're sitting you know it's not a comfortable lead but it's nice enough to where the other players are going to have to do something whether it's you know hit the lizard St uh targets get their uh you know spinner ready maybe go into the multiball um cuz as we can see it can end on on this copy with just a 10 20,000 uh result for your ball or you can get everything under control and go up up Center all the time so eer ball two locks one starts his two bowl multiball from the upper play field shot spiners Center spinner was lit but he caught he got caught on this one I was a little um a little surprise because I think it sort of uh froze him for a second he had a ball going out the left but then the other one decided to go uh straight down the middle for right here he had the Magna save ready and I think he realized that if he held the Magna saved maybe he could have saved the one on the left because the other one sort of did a small hop uh straight down the middle but a good ball 481 just kind of doubles what he had ball one uh vgo no free locks not this time you don't get anything there um he got his one ball lock uh starts his two- ball multiball he backhanded the left Target nicely with both balls cradled which I realized was a really smart strategy because um when you look at the the Playfield you know if you've got your Ard ready and you've got two on the left you have a chance kind of reminds me of two balls cradled on the right on Guardians to get to the scoop you can just backhand it there so he uh got his L Target nicely uh used the Magna save on the right had some huge spinner shots so when the Spinners lit what is that telling the player on the center spinner um that says that the spinner is worth 2,000 a spin so it's it's worth going for yeah so if it's solid it's worth a thousand then I think solid is just part of like the light show animation so like it stops spinning yeah gotcha gotcha Okay cool so uh vgo locked another ball um at the end of this one on his ball to he left one for Jason so Jason had uh one ready starts his two ball multiball gets a beautiful Center spinner uh shot right here I believe yeah so you can see his I think they were calculating it was like 30 to 40K per rip which is going to come into play um on your ball too so he relocked another ball after his two ball multiball is done he went for the center spinner um that time but it rejected to the right out lane and he is now sitting at 481k so your ball two is coming up you are uh slightly below the lead on vgo he's at 677 um you're at about 625 so you get your two locks do you remember your second ball this was a really uh you know a really good ball for you did you have you have any thoughts about it anything you want to mention on it um if you don't remember that's okay I think I I think I went spinner near the end of it rather than locking more balls and that was you know like we like we were talking about earlier right I feel like on in finals it's always just like you want to be the one in control rather than than the one chasing because chasing can be pretty sketch in finals so yeah so yeah it was just getting a solid foundation rather than trying to know put up four million on this game of Grand lizard yeah and I'm going to let the commentary here because this is where you post pass are you just he's Point pressing now yeah for 2,000 in a spin point PR oh he stopped at 100 going to complete the targets up top come on come on get close with the little flippers that would be impressive close oh he almost did like little nudges to keep it in the upper play field tiny flippers were RI the spin into the cave shot yeah I guess Grand lizard you know there's normally uh there's those full 3inch flippers but it gives you when they put when they put the tiny flippers that gives you about an in and a half of just rubber to play around with around there there yeah so they were talking about it right here they were like he's Point pressing because he doesn't want to you don't want to leave locks for eer um because you you have your first game result that okay I got to separate myself so I can at least get as many points as possible move myself up maybe take first um but it was a great note from the commentary and that's why I'm glad I'm glad you're here because it looked like okay I'm at a million I just need to separate myself I don't need to go for the locks my Spinner's lit let's just keep going up there and you said it you're a spinner main uh you had a great ball you put pressure on your opponents to get the locks themselves and hopefully catch up um and it looked like you're getting value up from the drops up up top as well I know that's not like uh you just stay up there as long as you can basically yeah I mean the drops can be good value on a normal Grand lizard but it's pretty tough to complete them with those with those tiny flippers I mean you can't really directly hit you know this like the ones on the right side you can't really hit with that upper right flipper and same thing with the you know the one on the left with those farther left targets so it's a lot harder to complete it in the in the time you have to makes sense yeah so great ball you're at 1.2 million what are your thoughts after ball two are you when you're walking around are you um thinking okay hold yeah hopefully I don't have to play ball three like that's that's the dream I don't wanna I don't want to mess it up right at the end so so that that that's very very astute so eer ball three right Magna safe to keep himself alive right there uh gets lock locks one ball um back hands the lizard targets um but unfortunately uh it when during his two- ball multiball he had a right L outlane drain to end the multiball um and then he gets a left sling to uh left sling to right outlane and he was trying to I think he was trying to restart that there it is restart his multiball but he is at 653 he currently in third he's looking at I'm assuming Jason's score because he had two from the first game and he's like if I can escape with a point I'm still in it uh and obviously as is a world class player he's always in it um but pointwise right there he's he's definitely hoping for a quick ball for Jason so vgo comes up he's got no locks he gets a forehand shot I hit one forehand lock shot I thought I was like okay I'm good in dis over I have not happy with it I locked one on Grand lizard with the zipper Flipper on the forehand um so vgo comes up locks his uh Second Ball he sent it up a bunch of times trying to get back get control if you're trying to get control on the bottom uh portion of grand lizard are you more often doing the post pass or are you trying to send it up top because it looked like he was trying to send it up top and hopefully getting a rebound uh or some slower friction coming down so that he could get it under control and I would say normally um on this gr lizard I was trying to post pass to hit my locks rather than going up top just cuz I couldn't make that shot um but you know if vgo was more comfortable with that multiball start up top then you know that's I think is a is a fine option as well yeah I I just noticed that and I I didn't know if he was doing it on purpose I thought he might have um because he had the two locks and this sets up Jason did you know that Jason had two locks ready for him probably I would imagine I was I imagine I was some and I was able to see the the game State when he was walking up I would be like oh come on man you don't need to help him any so Z Zer steps up he's got two locks to start ball three he's trailing zmac by almost 800k at the time uh he comes up he starts his three ball multiball and he's he's ready to go uh he's got his three ball going he ends it with about 976k so from ball two excuse me ball two to ball three he's getting about 500 uh looks just under 500,000 for that multiball so Zer locked in uh gets another 2x Center spinner rip this was a great ball from him he had some amazing post traps uh I think that's what it's called when it's coming down the in lane and you use the bottom of the post to trap it and stop it post catch post catch that's it good thank you see that's why you're here help me out post catch so yeah he had some really great post catches um so so he had already had his one three ball multiball he starts another two- ball multiball and uh ends with about 1.5 million in that ball loan he had I believe three multiballs and I'm pretty sure his thought process was the same as yours I don't want to leave any locks for zmac he ends up with about 1.58 on the uh scoreboard so your ball three what are your thoughts you come up you see that he's ahead of you by by 300 almost 300,000 297 uh what did what were you thinking there uh yeah I mean obviously was hoping not to play my last ball and here I am you know playing my last ball um so you know I think there's like a little it's definitely like know like we're talking about like the the chasing is tough and finals where it's like this this is it for all three of us right we either stop Jason here or not stopping Jason at all so um yeah there's definitely added pressure there of just getting something done um I almost feel like it's harder in this case of like when it's 300K and it's not like too much and you know just do do anything right don't don't completely fail right like it's it can be tough not to completely fail in those in those moments no yeah it's it's not easy so uh this was probably the ball I was most interested to hear other than ball three on Johnny and monic what your thoughts were because uh you're coming up to it and it's you're down you know a little over 300,000 and you don't have any locks ready for you so I'm going to let the commentary play because um this is a really really good sequence uh where you're postp passing so you can get that Center spin just got to rip it like twice oh he was so late he's got to burn it there it is I think that's fine okay nice up and over the spin could do it it's a good spin enough off the Center Post oh the backand rip another Center Post I had to I had to highlight that because that was crazy two Center posts in a row what was going through your mind then oh man I mean feel like when those when those things sort of things are happening I'm not thinking like oh I got to do a Center Post here I'm just like you know it's it's the the thing in my head is telling me all right it's time to do it and there's no there's no mental in there you know thinking about it so um um you know I wasn't really like stressed about it or anything or anything but like going back at looking at it later it's like oh my God that was that was terrifying how how did I not how did I not die there during that sequence uh Kaylee chimes in he's he says something along the lines of like that uh that line from uh I think it's like Jango and Chan where just like he had my curiosity but now he's got my attention of like you shifting Focus just the spinner and uh yeah I think everyone was just kind of like watching with baited breath you just every spinner rip getting closer to you know the top score and then you know finally when you when you reach that and like that moment of elation where you're just kind of like hopping around and dancing it's like awesome to watch yeah it was a good feeling for sure to not be done right one more game that did that Center Post ever come up in previous rounds were you were you cognizant that you could make a save off of it or because I know some of them just die they're there's there's no there no bounce on them yep I I that was the first time I played that grand lizard I hadn't heard anything about it earlier um I to be honest I don't even know if I knew there was a Center Post you know like in my mind so trust fall it's yep to total trust right that's awesome well congratulations obviously on that that was just such a wild sequence because it was like okay flip the Strat and then also get two Center posts in a row so you can continue the Strat and catch uh catch Jason so Center posts Center spinner run down Zer take first you are sitting at four Zer at six cuz he takes second vgo at third with two uh he gets another point eer unfortunately takes the zero on that one uh he's at two so you got a 6422 your path to the championship is to win out and hope Zer um uh doesn't take a second for the tiebreaker and obviously um you you would need to take first so uh we come up on Johnny neonic did you have this on your card earlier this is the last game of the index 2025 2025 main finals um did you have practice on it uh was it a staple of your card or were you sort of uh coming in a little more blind than normal yeah so I played this Johnny one time uh in qualifying and I I thought it played fine um when I played qualifying it it messed up quite a bit like there was lots of glove issues I had to like stop halfway through my game and you know take comp balls on a new game so I don't feel like I got I got the best uh Johnny experience but uh but yeah I thought all the shots felt pretty good um the spinner was you know absolute garbage on intentionally garbage uh Jim Jim did that on purpose to Nerf the spinner Strat a little bit um but yeah otherwise it was a very standard Johnny I'd say so for the uninitiated there was a giant sign on the backl that said don't do it what does don't do it mean on Johnny demonic um okay so you know little road trip down memory lane um so in 2022 I want to say at like the Great Lakes pinball open District 82 um Haley was playing Johnny neonic in a finals and he was behind burned his spinner Millions um and he had this trick up his sleeve where if you have a lockl and you start Yakuza and then Locka ball then from the hand you can continuously drop it into the mode start hole and it'll just serve it back up to the hand forever and mod Mode start hole will also award you a Yakuza shot for about 60 million and it doesn't really decrease in value so Kaylee did that there for you know 30 minutes or whatever right to catch to catch the scores he needed to do uh the game like freaked out I think I think the hand broke I don't know there was there was issues with the hand after that um and so it'll forever live on as a banded maneuver that's so funny yeah I I I did try that uh at a local after I heard about it I was like all right let me see if this actually does anything and I just dropped it into the hole and the game actually broke it like it just kept going back up into the hand and then I had to restart the game like hopefully he didn't blow a good score on that that's hilarious I you know good for Kaylee for finding that out so Johnny and monic um from what I understand there's there's you know the meta on it is build your bonus take advantage of the scoring bug on the grid for the award bonus I guess there's uh throwing Spike spinner Millions cyberspace multiball a matrix strategy the Yakuza strike which can give you decent points but I think um the the big Strat is to hit the spinner uh if you want to explain uh in better detail uh I would be more than happy to listen yeah so there's there's two different elements I there's lots of different elements to Johnny Johnny is a super funky game um but the first two things are um your throwing St strike Awards and your locks so throwing strikes are lit by the left in lane and then it they light for a short time on the right ramp and right orbit um and they give different Awards a set set um list of awards so the first award is gigabytes or big points or something and then the second award is something else and then the third award is light spinner Millions um spinner Millions is Spinner and it's worth 10 million a spin for that ball and it Awards it I believe during normal play and then also again during bonus um or for Big Value um so generally like a strong opener is you'll light your multiball and start spinner Millions with your multiball by shooting the right orbit for your last throwing Spike with your multiball start that way you have no chance of wasting your spinner Millions you guaranteed get a multiball in stack with it um and then and then on top of that there's bonus so hold bonus will award the previous Ball's bonus on the next ball and that includes your spinner Millions but it does it in a kind of funky way where on the display it'll show it'll cycle through like on ball two if you had a hold bonus on ball one it'll show your all these individual awards for ball two your previous ball bonus and then your total bonus which includes your previous ball bonus in actuality it Awards both your previous ball bonus bonus and your total bonus so it effectively doubles your previous ball bonus um so so yeah and you can you can hold multiple balls so ideally you get two holds um that way you have a and then you get your spinner Millions on both ball one and on ball one that way you hold your value for ball two and ball three gotcha so if you get a hold bonus on the grid on ball one does it remove it from the next player um so the grid is interesting so there's nine Awards on the grid and the first grid is shared by all players so the the location of my hold bonus is the same as the location of Jason's hold bonus and E's hold bonus and V's hold bonus um that means that when I place it there they unable to place it there until that ball is moved now when you lock a ball the glove will randomly remove one of the balls from the grid and hopefully it's the hold bonus one so that you can get it um that's one of the reasons like play order on Johnny can be kind of weird it's almost better to be first in that you're guaranteed that you can get the hold bonus before other people get an opportunity to and are you given any clues as to where the awards on the grid are yeah so when you lock your first ball um crazy Bob will cycle through all of the awards you know very quickly it'll show you know hold bonus 2X whatever just on the display and on the grid it'll light the corresponding um rollover on the on the grid so it'll show you know 2x bonus and show a location on the grid hold bonus show a location on the grid video mode show a different location on the grid and you have to be watching um if I'm if you watch you know players play Johnny when they lock their first ball you can see them wait look at the display wait till they see hold bonus and quickly look down to see where on the grid it is um it's it definitely takes them getting used to to to get the correct locations yeah it is it is a wild wild code um just trying to understand I I'm glad Kaylee was on commentary and for game three they had Jim bedo on as well Jeff tiola stepped out but it was really good to have him because he knows it really really well and I think this is a interesting uh tournament uh b game in the bank and just for the final because there's so much you can uh combine as far as starting off and setting yourself up for Success later on whereas you know on like a grand lizard you could be a fresh start every time but on this one uh your ball one was absolutely amazing so you know eer get gets they were talking about him getting a lock on ball one he could lock out an award for everyone else he had a quit he got the hold bonus um quick right outlan rain he ended up with 82 vgo unfortunately Johnny n did not treat him well on this on this round uh he was backhanding the left ramp was you were finding the backhand very consistent right on the left yeah the flippers were definitely strong enough for for the back end um he took video mode he ended up with 105 million people were yelling snarf at him I felt bad because it's not a not not one to to uh I have never found it easy but I'm sure you know just other people may have so he had a little bounce off the right into the right out lane ends up with 202 Zer did not not have a good ball one um Kaye was talking about forgoing the award bonus um and picking three in a row determined by the hold bonus I couldn't understand what he was um talking about there but he said once you burn through spinner Millions it might be cool to find a valuable mode after that but Jason didn't get the chance he had a quick left out lane drain for 71 million uh so now we get to your ball one um you obviously just explain the strategy did you have anything different that you were thinking about going into this uh it looks like you hit your first throwing Spike you took the lock got the award bonus from the grid um you R your lock your left ramp combo to right orbit to uh got your next lock shot and then uh there was a moment where you were kind of hyped up and I think it's coming here after your second lock I'm going to let the audio play first and then we'll get your thoughts on what was kind of going on here must have it up this time n so his next throwing Spike he gets it is going to light the biggest scoring potential in the game right smartly lighting his lock he's going to try and combo his left ramp into the right orbit nice nice Z's excited so his spinner is lit for 10 million a spin he's got 2x bonus he's going to be able to put it on hold bonus so what were your thoughts at that moment you you kind of had what you need wanted to set up yeah that's I think the the goal of any game of Johnny is to get your spinner million multiball stack on ball one um that way you have the opportunity to hold your bonus twice and and maximize potential so especially seeing all three other players not do that I thought this was huge potential and if I get a pretty decent um spinner million value uh I I could end it right here and yeah would be able to touch me but unfortunately I did not get great spinner value so so that did not happen and you know maybe a more exciting game I did love the the double Andy Bagwell clap after the uh there that was awesome to watch you just got so like hyped up you know it's like all this energy you just can't really exert because you're just playing pinball by pushing two buttons but it was definitely you can see the energy there yeah for sure I remember after I after this game you know I I texted with Andy and I was like I had some Andy Bagwell moments you know some some Bagwell claps in there that's awesome so yeah so this one just a great start to set yourself up to take the four uh on on Johnny and monic so I think there was um I think you had a little flip or hop on on one once the once the multiball was out you're cracking up there you're already at uh 9:42 and your quick multiball um by the time it ends I think you were at your bonus there's 754 and then obviously there was the addition of uh the prior the prior bonus amount that you're talking about gets added to it so you were at 1.9 billion um they said on the stream and I think this is correct uh your next ball you would have had a one and 1.5 billion on bonus and doubled if you could find the collect bonus on the grid um so we're going into ball two eer starts cyberspace multiball gets the left ramp to right orbit for his quick multiball uh he had an amazing ball too uh his spinner Millions were at 3x uh by the time we get to he starts Yakuza uh right around here he's already at 17 billion on the footage and we look at his Yakuza strike I think he had the same sort of flipper ho to straight down the middle that you had on your ball one but you're looking at his total right here and there's his 490 excuse me 1.8 billion uh and then obviously added in with whatever else was there he's already at 3.56 billion I don't know where. huh that 1.8 that he has aser has is that that's what is carrying over to his final ball right oh yes but not just 1.8 because 1.8 is his previous bonus and it Awards your previous bonus twice that's that's part of the bug so it's really what 3.6 that he's gonna be getting on his ball three okay um so so yes and that's like Johnny like if you mess up your the thing um normally it's just it's over there's no way to come back it's who does the thing best and who does it earliest to maximize that value um so I think I actually got pretty lucky that spinner was pretty trash on this Johnny and that normally with with the the amount of spinner uh it's eer had versus me like he would be in the 20 billion range and I would be in the seven or eight right like the Gap would be a lot big bger and a lot harder to to overcome that's that's yeah I was just thinking about when you said the spinner was trash in the beginning and now he had some really good you know shots at it but because it was trash it it worked out yeah thanks Jim you know thanks Jim um vgo unfortunately had a uh missed a key shot he lit his locks he tilted he's at 466 million Z ball two uh did not go well um he was at a uh for ball one he was at 71 million he got a a little bit of a a jump there but he had a failed Loop pass and he ended up with 275 million so your ball to were coming up and um the the commentary was indicating there was some confusion on about uh the grid does it stay did did the position stay for from Bal two to ball three uh do you know anything about the uh how it how it's supposed to act or how it did act during the finals yeah so I'm basically in this position um the only way I would catch eer was if I had a if I was able to get to the award bonus um because I'm I was behind by a lot and also estra needed to not get the award bonus um and so yeah compared to the previous multiball the grid completely randomizes again it's totally different Awards and locations and your um your first lock doesn't cycle throughout the awards so the only way to find out where things are on your grid is by shooting the Bob hole and it will show you one at a time uh what each location Awards so potentially nine times to find what you need um so the thing with with Johnny is like your first grid your first multiball is shared by everyone the hold bonus is always in the same location for all players the second grid that's not the case everyone has a different location for different Awards um so so sher's award bonus was not the same location as my award bonus um but between balls that's it Remains the Same your your grid your second grade is always your second grade and it never changes as far as I'm aware you know I'm not I'm I'm no Kaylee uh on on rule knowledge on this game so we just saw on that ball you hit Bobs twice so you had hold bonus on five and then award bonus on two so you kept that in mind going into B three yeah so I knew where it was and what needed to do um to get that that's awesome yeah they they were saying for ball three now ushers up he uh um they they mentioned the randomized grid when I wanted to confirm it with you because I think they had some sort of confusion uh so for ball three end of your ball two you're at 3.58 n billion and eer uh at the time was at 3.56 so you're close but obviously you know he has uh I think he had 3.8 in bonus uh at the end he uh commentary was saying he wanted to get back to the ramps get back to spinner Millions oh I was going to ask about if you're stuck with a bad setup at the initial on your initial outset are you ever thinking about is there a reset if you get to power down and then you could try everything again or it just isn't feasible because it takes so long to get there so power down um as far as far as I'm aware will clear your grid and that's a way in which if you know where the award bonus is on ball um on second grid you're able to recollect that value uh two times effectively um as far as throwing spikes go I believe the only way to relight them is by completing a Yakuza on your previous ball um which eer did but I did not do so I was unable to get spinner millions eer could go um so yeah now eer on his ball if I remember correctly um locked a ball in position two where my award bonus was and that meant that I when I went to the grid I had to lock other balls and hope the hand took away the right ball in order to get to the to position two yeah he got a 100 million for his grid award and they were mentioning there's like a mode that locks him out of getting a lock um so the the grids were different here but he puts up an eer like performance and does really well and he ends up with 3.8 in bonus he's got 7.9 in first he needed to win and for Zer to get a zero to force a tiebreaker at least at the eight level um vgo steps up he gets a quick straight down the middle uh and a tilt he's at 546 million so his um his time his game three is over and Zer uh at the time had 275 million so he at least had to pass vgo to get the point to end up with seven which would then force you to have to get the four to take the eight and win so Zer steps up uh and he got one quick danger started Yakuza strike he was picking his ramps off and going back to what you're saying about his accuracy just left and right uh on Yakuza starts his quick multiball ends it with 1.1 billion and he takes third uh for one point well at the time third no yeah it would have been third anyways uh based on the scores at the time and so he has 1.4 and so now your ball three is up um there was a little bit of waiting people were doing um but what were you I love this moment yeah there were some you guys talk about it right everyone was like in the chat is coaching allowed but they don't realize coaching is allowed as long as the ball is not plunged and active so what were you talking about here with eer um yeah we were just talking about getting to the grid right how to because because you know like said like I sure had blocked my award so we talking about whether it was worth it or try to go um throwing spikes or whatever but yeah it was it was just confirming like yep going for grid that's the only way that's what we got to do so that's what we're gonna do so see yeah so yeah so you get to the grid uh I think a couple times so you know here you are you step up um you they were talking about how you had 1.8 in bonus which would have put you at about 5.3 so obviously you have to passer 7.9 you get to the grid you lock your first ball you got 100 million for your first award did you think that was your award bonus no so I know I knew where it was and it was on two two was blocked so I was I was just placing it hoping it would move it um and it did not I'm pretty sure I think it moved a different ball so I I still did not have uh hold bonus cleared you started um you got another one and you started touchone multiball and Kaylee was saying you know there's some okay points there but uh obviously when you had it up you were um you just decided I'm going to drain it out right yeah I thought the risk of losing my left out lane save was too high for me to play this multiball or double draining right I felt yeah it would feel terrible to lose because I just played a multiball that was not going to get me there for schmeg points um so so yeah yeah that was awesome because uh everyone's like they they mentioned your left outline say they're like yeah draining it draining it makes sense just get back up there um and obviously on your third lock uh I think it's coming up we'll just let the footage play but you needed to find the award bonus you were at um 3.8 right there and uh you had a couple shots at it he was getting a little s getting a little squirly people were getting nervous and then here it comes what the one the one uh the one symbol there and we'll we'll let the footage luck yeah so you just had to get it where up here you got the post pass that looked dangerous right there it looked like it was coming down um it's going to there's a nice catch and O just wouldn't go so you have to to get a lock in Johnny um you have to hit the for a second lock you have to hit the target up the middle and that lights the vck for the lock um so yeah you have to for every lock you have to survive a dangerous a dangerous drop Target yeah so you're you're you're putting it I think was on the two spot you got your award bonus on the two another another hype moment here yeah more bag claps he really doesn't want to tilt right now like the worst thing he could do is instinctively try and save something so did you know you had it here um I thought I had it but then when I looked at my score and I was only at 5.6 um you know I thought I had about 1.5 is in um in bonus so I thought I needed another like 800 million in order to eure and make it make it done yeah I think I think based on the ma the math it was like you might have been at uh 7.5 and you you you were needed 7.9 but go ahead yeah oh so so yeah I was I I I I definitely remember telling myself all right you know we're not done here we got to we got to work through this multiball yeah it was uh it was great because you got a couple jackpots um and then you started uh yakuzi out uh after and then a really really great moment near the end once you got to about uh 6.2 you were at 6.6 by uh the end of Yakuza I think it's coming here let me see if they this held light is off is it going to say previous bonus on it anymore all yeah I mean all sorts of things well I'm going to get to that moment but there was the moment where a plastic something fell out what happened there that was insane oh yeah I remember I I like hit on the left side and the screw was out and then I started Yakuza I couldn't trap up you know that was my value I I didn't know if I needed it or not so I just I just kept on going yeah you have to right it's like too much on the line you're not going to trap up and have him open the game like you just have the played out so we're going to watch this moment here and we'll get your reaction after that on what you were thinking we'll let the audio play and then I'll I'll queue you up what is it what is it what is it there's the previous bonus he's going to get both of them ZX only the most dramatic finishes for indis dude bonus countdowns ball three player four so just your thoughts on uh on your ball three um and the Jubilation you felt uh obviously backtack amazing amazing feat so congratulations and yeah let's get get your get your thoughts on it I mean it was best feeling in the world right you know it's it was it was awesome um I think it was definely like a really exciting way to win um you know the previous year I had to play I I was picking the games so I was playing like first one all of them and so I feel like I didn't get the I didn't really get the like hype you know ball three comeback sort of uh experience so that was that was really cool to have um and of course you know awesome getting the love from you know my my Colorado buddies AER and and Adam and everything so so yeah nice man again congratulations uh I'm not I'm sure I'm sure it feels nice if you're up eight you know you get two fours and you're like all right I got it I don't have to worry but coming back on a ball three especially at Johnny and monic where there's so much at play it just has to feel great and uh it's really fun watching you and I I appreciate you coming on on on with us um uh just comparing uh this year's win to last year's win um I know it it feels good and now it's going to give you some momentum for for uh Nationals coming up soon Joe did you have any questions we're going to play a little game with you real quick at the end but any questions for our esteemed guest while he's here no no I just just to kind of add on to that um I think the camaraderie uh between players and the finals just so awesome to see like stepping up to the ball like you know talking the strategy out with eer like going into that you know it's like as the you know as the point stood it was like Jason getting one point even with eer getting four like that means Jason's winning unless you know you put up a monster ball and it's like um draining out of that multiball it's it's what we talked about with the 421 zero scoring it's like you have to go for the home run and that's exactly what what happened so it's incredible to watch man congrats yeah absolutely and it's it's awesome was like you know in that finals I was playing Jason eer and and Deo and all three of them are like really good friends of mine and you know it was it was definitely it was a very fun finals you know like a nice kid kid final four boo no just kidding now congrat again we I've said we've said it millions of times but I'm sure you've heard it from a lot of people too uh it was super fun to watch and it's a great start to the year for competitive pinball um again this is wizard Wizards and Warriors episode 6 uh with our guest Zach McCarthy AKA zmac your 2025 inis main Open winner back-to-back champ call him momes or I don't know if you want to call him Mahomes because he's lives in Colorado maybe he's a Broncos fan but but uh just some uh quick game we're gonna play with you just a wrapid fire around just come say what comes first in your brain your first thoughts uh flipper skills or nudging skills uh flipper skills accuracy and and drop catches is what wins you know em DMD or LCD uh DMD uh love love some data East and you know early Sterns favorite pin favorite pin uh ACDC least favorite uh Adams Family it's boring and repetitive super hyped I think uh a I think you had it was a favorite non- pinball arcade game yes on there yeah well favorite non um I'd say joust I had one my parents had one growing up so it's a good one that's what that's the yeah that's a good one uh you ever play the Jou pinball machine oh yeah there was one in uh in Lions Colorado for for many many years so I played that one nice uh favorite city for pinball tournaments um I mean I'm super biased but Riverside is great I think uh I love it for pinball I love the late night midnight Ramen and the chba hat for for dinner yeah the ramen was jam-packed the one night we tried to go we and Joe red together we're like ah this isn't gonna work all right uh last one it's fine or Bozo it's fine Joe do you have any for him no man that's that's it dude awesome again thank you so much uh for joining us I appreciate you taking time out I know you're busy uh with school so it it really means a lot it's always fun to I I could talk all day as you can see um whoops and there that goes so let me just go back to this scene sorry um I forgot it ended so uh yeah we really appreciate it uh this was a great great inis and I can't wait to play with you guys uh some more best of luck and congratulations uh once again and and keep on pressing bye everybody yeah absolutely bye see ma thanks everyone I step to the T my heart is singing is watching theion is high I'm ready to play it's time to Def for fight all Madness it's allight we in control we got the soul Chas in the the arcades my every command in the Kingdom I make my stand all war ready to fight we in control Ines we got the soul [Music] oh
ZMAC's primary goal for 2025 is to win IFPA; secondary goal is to close the gap with top players Asher and Jason in the rankings
high confidence · Zach: 'I mean I think like winning IFPA I think would be the number one goal... I'd love to close the gap and IFPA between me Asher and and Jason'
ZMAC's efficiency rating is approximately 10% lower than Asher and Jason's, which impacts IFPA ranking movement
medium confidence · Zach: 'I think efficiency is a little bit worse than Asher and Jason's okay by about 10% or something is so that that I think helps hurts a lot'
ZMAC @ ~38:20 — Technical game knowledge on Rush multiball priority and scoring strategy
high · ZMAC: 'I feel like the first thing I noticed in my like initial games that I was playing was that the the tilts were way looser than in previous years... I think that's really like the way to go... Jim setups normally um is that he will give you pretty loose tilts um you know his games are set up hard but he still lets you show off your skill'
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community_signal: ZMAC's family operates substantial arcade (~40 pinball machines) in Colorado; both parents actively play (mother involved in Bells and Chimes League, father owns arcade); suggests family business structure supporting competitive ecosystem and player development
high · ZMAC: 'My dad owns an arcade um and you know my mom is a big big part of the uh Bells and Chimes League uh in Colorado... My parents own 40ish... it's a big arcade right'
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design_philosophy: Rush (Borg design) at Indisc 2025 featured non-standard settings: Far Cry locks set to 'medium' difficulty (instead of typical default); Time Machine multiball requires 8 shots instead of normal 3; settings significantly impact strategy prioritization (Far Cry over Headlong Flight despite latter being technically more valuable)
high · ZMAC: 'The um Far Cry locks are set to medium but also it took eight time machine shots instead of the kind of normal three to start that first time machine multiball... Far Cry is definitely the most valuable of the um or Headlong Flight is probably technically the most valuable but it's very very deep'
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community_signal: ZMAC's kinetic pacing behavior during tournament play originates from lifelong habit but intensified post-Pinball Expo 2022 match against Dalton; serves as cognitive aid (blood flow, thinking clarity); quantifiable at Indisc 2025 (23,000 steps Sunday); indicates psychological coping mechanism under pressure
high · ZMAC: 'I feel like I've almost always paced just like in my life I've always paced... I really started doing it after like Pinball Expo 2022 I remember I had like really tough match against Dalton and I started pacing like crazy then ever since then'
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personnel_signal: Adam Leof identified as ZMAC's pinball coach; credited with foundational flipper skill training, rules knowledge, and mental game coaching (stress management, staying calm under pressure); indicates formalized coaching structure within competitive pinball community
high · ZMAC: 'My pinball coach you know Adam Leof of course and of course my own family right um but so I mean he gave me so much advice... the most important thing that I got is you know focusing on your mental game'
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competitive_signal: Indisc 2025 featured multiple tournament formats within single event: main classics match play, high stakes (non-WPPR), pin clash (two Jaws machines), and women's tournament; card format with forced game selection requirement (players must play their brought-in game at some point)
high · Host describes: 'card format of tournaments... you have to pick the monitor that you bring in or the game that you bring in at some point in the tournament'
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competitive_signal: Card format strategy among elite players: dangerous/unknown games should be played first while fresh to avoid sunk time on safe games before potential low score; balancing 'good meat' (foundation score) with riskier multiballs; point-pressing early balls to establish psychological pressure on later players
high · ZMAC: 'You should always start with the most dangerous games first that way if they go bad then you can you know easily get back in line... I need like a good foundation and then I'll then I'll do my risky games'