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Episode 249 - Interview with Todd MacCulloch 11-11-15

For Amusement Only EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·54m 55s·analyzed·Nov 15, 2015
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Todd McCulloch on Seattle pinball culture, EM collecting, and operating machines on location.

Summary

Todd McCulloch, a Seattle-based pinball player, collector, and operator, discusses his multifaceted involvement in pinball—from competitive play and home collection to operating machines at commercial venues. He details his extensive collection of electromechanical games (EMs), mannequin-themed arcade games, and bingo machines, emphasizing his preference for multiplayer, head-to-head gameplay experiences. McCulloch highlights Seattle's vibrant pinball community, the challenge of being a responsible operator, and his evolution from video game enthusiast to passionate pinball advocate.

Key Claims

  • Todd operates approximately 10 games on location (7 pinball, 3 video games) across Seattle-area establishments

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch stated directly: 'I've got about ten games on location, seven of them being pinball machines and three of them being video games.'

  • Seattle has weekly pinball tournaments with participation as high as 70-120 players per event

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch: 'This tournament I was just in at the Shorty's annual tournament on Sunday, we had about 70 there in the past. I think we've had 120 people play.'

  • Todd recently acquired three Gottlieb EM pinball machines: Quick Draw, Big Hit, and Card Whiz

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch: 'I got a Gottlieb Quick Draw, a Gottlieb Big Hit, and a Gottlieb Card Whiz.'

  • Seattle has multiple weekly pinball tournament opportunities (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday nights plus Saturday and Sunday events)

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch: 'I think there's Monday night bar league...Tuesday is at another location...Wednesday is at a table...Thursday is somewhere else. And then there's Saturday tournaments and every other Sunday.'

  • The 1970 Sega Moto Polo is Todd's favorite EM game overall due to its innovative 3D gameplay mechanics with joystick-controlled magnetic motorcycles

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch: 'Oh, man, that's my favorite EM overall, probably Moto Polo from 1970. It's almost like an electromechanical three-dimensional version of—a friend of mine called it Tron.'

  • Todd's wife gifted him a bingo machine for his birthday that he subsequently gave away due to difficulty repairing it

    high confidence · Todd McCulloch: 'My wife had gotten one for me for my birthday, which I thought was pretty amazing, but it didn't work, and I looked in the back, and it looked like a million relays...so I ended up moving it along to someone who was going to bring it back to life.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I didn't want to be a deadbeat operator back in the day that had broken flippers in games that wouldn't play...so now that I have games out there, I'm trying to live up to...trying to drink my own medicine and try and have working games out there.”

    Todd McCulloch @ early in interview — Establishes Todd's commitment to operator integrity and high maintenance standards, reflecting industry norms about responsible operation.

  • “There's something special and unique about having games out in public...some of the games that I have on location, I end up playing them more on location than I did here.”

    Todd McCulloch @ mid-interview — Illustrates the appeal of location-based play over home collection, highlighting operator perspective on community engagement.

  • “I think just that every game is different, and every time you launch the ball, it's a new set of things and less memorizable patterns...pinball has grabbed me.”

    Todd McCulloch @ mid-interview — Articulates the core appeal of pinball over video games—variability and skill progression.

  • “It's almost like an electromechanical three-dimensional version of...Tron. It's like playing Tron where you've got these motorcycles going on a side.”

    Todd McCulloch @ discussion of Sega Moto Polo — Demonstrates how EM games can offer innovative gameplay experiences; frames 1970s game design as surprisingly sophisticated.

  • “The game will randomly give me an odd-numbered horse, and it would give my opponent an even one...we jockeyed back and forth...that's kind of fun when you miss a shot and your opponent benefits.”

    Todd McCulloch @ discussing 1970 Williams Winner — Shows appreciation for multiplayer game design where player actions directly affect opponents, a key EM design philosophy.

  • “I think I'd met one at a local store. We share the same pinball tech and restorer...He stopped me and talked for 20 minutes about pinball...The next thing you know, we're good friends.”

    Todd McCulloch @ early interview segment on community — Illustrates how the pinball community builds social bonds around shared collecting/playing interests and service providers.

Entities

Todd McCullochpersonNick BaldridgepersonSeattlelocationSkill Shotorganization/podcastShorty'svenueSega Moto PologameWilliams NagsgameGottlieb Quick DrawgameGottlieb Big Hitgame

Signals

  • ?

    venue_signal: Seattle pinball scene hosts multiple weekly tournaments with sustained high participation (70-120 players per event), indicating robust competitive infrastructure and community engagement.

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'This tournament I was just in at the Shorty's annual tournament on Sunday, we had about 70 there in the past. I think we've had 120 people play...I think there's Monday night bar league...Tuesday is at another location...Wednesday is at a table...Thursday is somewhere else.'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Seattle operator community prioritizes machine quality and uptime; locations actively support each other to maintain working games; shared technical resources and expertise foster responsible operation.

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'Friends understand that those games are sort of time-sensitive, and they're really extra helpful when the games on location go down...there's a nice community here of people that are willing to help...everyone seems to help everybody out, and everyone seems to just want more games out there to play.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball machines serve as social focal points enabling community building; collectors actively invite new acquaintances and friends to play, bridging hobby interest and social connection.

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'I'd met one at a local store...The next thing you know, we're good friends. We've got poker night on Friday, and we'll take a little poker break and play his pinball machine...I've had people come over that have sat next to me on airplanes.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Growing appreciation and acquisition of EM machines among modern collectors; preference for multiplayer, head-to-head gameplay experiences and games with visual/mechanical novelty (mannequin animations, skill shots).

    high · Todd McCulloch acquiring Gottlieb EMs and specialty arcade games; emphasis on 'multiplayer games just so that people can have a shared experience...even better when it's simultaneous.' Preference for mannequin games: 'I really like the mannequin stuff, the games that have a little character that are doing something human-like.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.165

0:00
What's that sound? It's 4 Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast. Welcome back to 4 Amusement Only. This is Nick Baldridge. With me tonight I have a special guest, Todd McCullough. Todd was an NBA player and is currently a pinball player, collector, and operator. Todd, how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you very much for the opportunity to come on your show. Absolutely. Pleasure to have you. So, Todd, what's going on in your pinball world?
0:40
Well, I like to collect, I like to play, I like to compete, I like to socialize, and in the last couple of years or so, I've gotten into operating a little bit, so I like all facets of the hobby. I'm not the best technician by any stretch, so I think if you ever make it out to Seattle, I'd love to put some of your EM skills to work to fix some of my machines. But fortunately, there's a nice community here of people that are willing to help, and especially the games on location. My friends understand that those games are sort of time-sensitive, and they're really extra helpful when the games on location go down, and they want to make me look good. and so they help me keep those running so I can be the, I want to be the kind of operator. I didn't, you know, I used to talk about deadbeat operators back in the day that had broken flippers in games that wouldn't play, and I would, you know, speak poorly of them, and I didn't want to be that. So now that I have games out there, I'm trying to live up to, you know, trying to drink my own medicine and try and have working games out there for people to play that they can rediscover that pinball is still fun. living up to your own standard huh i'm i'm trying i mean it's i can i can sort of understand it's certainly difficult and and uh you know that ball is rolling around at three or four miles an hour smashing into things and there's lots of things to to go wrong and so sometimes i'm amazed that the at the intervals in between phone calls so sometimes it kind of comes and flurries and sometimes i'm amazed that things are just kind of going smoothly and that everything is working, but it's all worth it, especially just having such a nice pinball community here in Seattle. Everyone seems to help everybody out, and everyone seems to just want more games out there to play, and there's something special and unique about having games out in public, I think, and some of the games that I have on location, I end up playing them more on location than I did here. You can only have so many games at home, and there's only so much time to play them. So when I'm checking on them, I've got to play test them. And so sometimes I think I probably get more plays in the field. And there's one pizza spot in particular that there used to be another operator in when it was under different management. And I used to go and play the games there. And I had sort of nicer, cleaner copies of those games at home that were free. And still, I would go there and grab a slice of pizza and play those games just to try and put my initials up or win a replay and have some of those tactical things or tangible things like the knocker go off when you just don't get those same things at home. But playing pinball at home with friends has its own rewards, and it's kind of fun to invite people over to play. So I had a couple guys over the other day, and I think I'd met one at Safeway. We share the same pinball tech and restorers. And so the techs had found out that this customer was also from Bamer John. I said, oh, when you run into Todd, you should say hi. He's also a pinball collector. And my new friend said, oh, I don't want to bother him. He's like, no, he likes talking pinball, and I'm sure he'd love to meet another pinball collector. So he stopped me in Safeway and talked for 20 minutes about pinball in the aisle. The next thing you know, we're good friends. We've got poker night on Friday, and we'll take a little poker break and play his pinball machine. And then I had a few other guys over as well. Another guy had stopped me at Safeway and said, you know, I used to play your games on location. I said, okay, you're my kind of guy. I'm having some people over. You should come over. So it was – and then another guy met at the ale house waiting for a beer. And, of course, I brought pinball into the conversation. Next thing you know, he's over. So I've had people come over that have sat next to me on airplanes. And the guy who used to work at the mail, you know, at the post office. So basically, if you're a nice person and you're into pinball, then that's usually all it takes.

  • “So there's definitely a hotbed [in Seattle], and there's a lot of dedicated people that take a lot of pride in having games on location that work well and function.”

    Todd McCulloch @ mid-interview — Emphasizes the tight-knit Seattle operator/venue community and culture of maintaining quality machines.

  • “I think they're simple to understand but difficult to master...I know that's a quote Dennis Nordman likes to use when talking about pinball design.”

    Todd McCulloch @ late interview — References influential pinball design philosophy and game accessibility principles.

    • Gottlieb Card Whiz
    game
    1970 Williams Winnergame
    Dick Erlitzperson
    Dennis Nordmanperson
    Chicago Coincompany
    Bainbridge Islandlocation
    All-American Basketballgame
    Sega Gunfightgame
    Williams 10 Strikegame
    Dowpolecompany
    Eureka Heights Brewingvenue
  • ?

    design_philosophy: EM game design philosophy values simplicity of understanding coupled with difficulty of mastery; referenced via Dennis Nordman quote, indicating industry-wide design principle.

    medium · Todd McCulloch: 'I think that's kind of the draw and the uniqueness of especially the EM games, that they're really sort of simple to understand but difficult to master...I know that's a quote Dennis Nordman likes to use when talking about pinball design.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Bingo machines present significant repair/troubleshooting challenges due to complex relay systems, creating barrier to entry for casual collectors and hobbyists.

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'My wife had gotten one for me for my birthday...it didn't work, and I looked in the back, and it looked like a million relays, and I had sort of heard how difficult they were to troubleshoot and fix.'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Commercial venue operators vary in preference between pinball and video machines; some prioritize video due to perceived clientele fit; operator must balance venue owner preferences with personal collecting/operating goals.

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'Some of the owners of the establishments are the bosses, and some of them are more into video, or they think that it would cater more to their clientele...I try and keep them happy. And in some cases, it's a mix of pinball and video.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Competitive specialists exist across niche arcade/skill game categories (skee-ball, foosball, bubble hockey); high-level players operate at significantly elevated skill levels; games reward deep practice and expertise.

    medium · Todd McCulloch discussing skee-ball pro achieving 'perfect 900' score; Olympic basketball coach beating him 9-0 at bubble hockey; observation that 'there's specialists in everything, in darts and billiards.'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Successful operators build relationships with venue owners through shared interests (e.g., film themes) and consistent revenue performance; machine placement contingent on venue owner buy-in and thematic appeal.

    medium · Todd McCulloch: 'I mentioned something about The Big Lebowski, and it turns out that's his favorite movie...I mean, that's a big ticket item. So we'll see how well that does. But maybe if I get Big Lebowski...I might need to try and see how that does at the brewery.'

  • $

    market_signal: EM and specialty arcade games available through secondary market (private sales, auctions); collectors acquire from departing hobbyists downsizing collections due to lifestyle changes (moving, space constraints).

    high · Todd McCulloch: 'I recently just bought my first—not necessarily my first—couple of EMs...from a fellow Bainbridge Islander who was changing homes and didn't have room for them anymore...he's been over to play them and visit them.'

    • 4:39
    That's a good attitude. So how many games do you have on location currently? I've got about ten games on location, seven of them being pinball machines and three of them being video games. And so I definitely prefer the pinball machines. That's my preference. but some of the owners of the establishments are the bosses, and some of them are more into video, or they think that it would cater more to their clientele, and so I try and keep them happy. And in some cases, it's a mix of pinball and video. And I know I started out with video as well. I was born in 76, and so I was a product of the 80s, and pinball seemed confusing to me, and I wasn't very good at it, and the value didn't seem to be there because the three balls would drain, and I would be gone. Whereas if I played some video games, I could start to memorize some patterns and maybe get better value out of my quarter. So I definitely started off as a video game kid, and then at some point just got bit by the pinball bug. And I think the same things that drew me to video are what attract me to pinball now. I think just that every game is different, and every time you launch the ball, it's a new set of things and less memorizable patterns. And definitely each have their own set of skills, but a different set of skills. and pinball has grabbed me. So I tend to try and get pinball where I can. There's a brewery around the corner, and I think the owner is more of a video game guy than a pinball guy.
    6:10
    So I've got a video game in there, but I'm sort of trying to see if there's any way to get a pinball machine in there. I mentioned something about The Big Lebowski, and it turns out that's his favorite movie. He's like, no, you didn't say anything about The Big Lebowski. So, I mean, that's a big ticket item. So we'll see how well that does. But maybe if I get a big Lebowski or something, I might need to try and see how that does at the brewery, because I think he'd be okay with putting a game with such a cool theme out in the location. Sounds pretty interesting there. So, yeah, Seattle has a pretty vibrant scene for pinball, it seems. I listened to the Skill Shot pin cast, and they certainly talk quite a bit about playing on location there. That's pretty special compared to the Richmond, Virginia here.
    7:00
    We do have a few places to play, but they are few and far between, unfortunately. So we try to support them wherever and whenever we can. But it sounds like there's quite a bit going on in Seattle. Yeah, I won't say there's almost too much, but it's almost sort of overwhelming where I've got a seven-year-old and a five-year-old. And I think if I was just a single man, I think I'd be playing in pinball tournaments every day of the week. I think there's Monday night bar league, but apparently they don't get done until one in the morning, and I would have to catch a ferry back to Bainbridge. And I think Tuesday is at another location, and I think Wednesday is at Attable, and I think Thursday is somewhere else. And then there's Saturday tournaments and every other Sunday. So there's so many, it's almost overwhelming where I'd like to play in them all. But there's certainly, if you're into pinball, this is definitely a hotbed, and there's a lot of dedicated people that take a lot of pride in having games on location that work well and function. And I've heard of some of these weekly tournaments having 70 people at them. This tournament I was just in at the Shorty's annual tournament on Sunday, We had about 70 there in the past. I think we've had 120 people play. When I hosted league here, I think we had close to 70 participants playing here. So there's lots of life in pinball, and it's nice to see some of those local operators getting sort of rewarded where if they put out games that play well, the faithful pinball players will come and support them, and often locations will want to increase the number of pinball machines because the more the merrier. So I feel pretty lucky to enjoy pinball so much and to be living somewhere where if I had the time, I could go to a tournament almost every day of the week. And just being a competitive person and having a competitive past, the competition part of pinball is something that I really enjoy, and the camaraderie. And it seems like people are genuinely pretty nice to each other, even when they're competing head-to-head. and uh are there many ems on location not not too many uh shorties uh has had a jack in the box there and in the past they've had a surf champ and they um so they usually have uh one or two ems there i know there's um there are some ems in in seattle a friend of mine uh jp and dominic They operate electromechanical pinball machines in the Seattle area. I'm not sure of the locations, but they sort of specialize in that era. So there definitely are places and there are games.
    9:43
    I know Skillshare does a really good job on their website and in their zine of basically listing by region of the city where all the games are. And some of the apps on the phones also describe that stuff. So there are some games to be played if that's what you're into. and I recently just bought my first, not necessarily my first couple of EMs, but some nice playing Gottliebs from a fellow Bainbridge Islander who was changing homes and didn't have room for them anymore. So he didn't want to sell them, but then when his wife suggested that they could go to a good home like mine where they'd be enjoyed, all of a sudden he was more open to the idea of letting them go, and then he's been over to play them and visit them. So they didn't go too far. So I'm starting to really appreciate just the different set of skills of the EM games and just how much fun they can be and how challenged they are. And it's kind of nice to have the ball times a little bit shorter. So if you are playing a multiplayer game, they don't necessarily last forever. I've got some friends that are such good pinball players, when you're playing doubles with them, sometimes their turns take an hour. So when you're playing an EM, it kind of levels the playing field a little bit and kind of gives everyone a chance to compete and have the games move through a little bit quicker. So what did you get? I got a Gottlieb Quick Draw, a Gottlieb Big Hit, and a Gottlieb Card Whiz. I've just been enjoying those. The EM pins that I had previously were just some ones that were a little bit more novel. I've got a Williams Nags. I really like the animation in the head boxes of some of the Pitch and Bat games and also some of those pinball machines. For some reason, not that I don't like horses, I like horses a lot.
    11:29
    I seem to like some horse racing games, and so some of the pinball-themed horse racing games. I've got a 1970 Winner.
    11:37
    Some of the head box animation that I really enjoy is from a couple of 1964 Midway games. One's a raceway and one's a flying turns, and I've got a couple of metal dinky cars that do laps in the head box, and instead of scoring points, they score laps. So you take turns with your opponent trying to score more laps, and I found that animation really interesting. And the 1970 Williams winners, maybe not the best-looking game in terms of the color palette or the things, but I love the way that the game, as a two-player game, you have an effect on your opponent. So we would sort of ignore the score, and the game would randomly give me an odd-numbered horse, and it would give my opponent even one, and we would play, and I would try and advance my horse a certain distance. And when my ball would drain, then my opponent would play, and they would try and get their horse to cross the line. And so we jockeyed back and forth. And so we just developed this, you know, let's play best of seven so you can get their horse across the line four times. And let's say my horse was stuck in the stable and I wasn't going to win. It looked like my opponent was going to get across the line. I would sort of abandon trying to get me to win, and I would just pick the next closest horse to try and beat my opponent so we could at least push and go to the next game. So even ignoring the score, I've had tons of fun playing this 1970s horse racing game, just trying to edge out my opponent. Because the game, instead of resetting for each player, you're sort of playing the same game and just taking turns trying to progress. And, of course, if you miss your target, you can advance your opponent's horse, and that just kind of makes it fun when you miss a shot and your opponent benefits. So I had a lot of fun with that game. Absolutely. Now, NAGS, is this the version with the rotating pop bumpers? Yeah, exactly. It's got that big turntable in the middle, and each horse has a pop bumper that registers hits and moves that horse along the pathway. And you spend a lot of time draining. There's the small 2-inch flippers, and then there's three outlanes on one side and three outlanes on the other side with really no inlane And depending on what lane it goes down it will advance that horse a little bit So it kind of hard to get the ball towards the middle to get a flipper on it but it's still a really interesting game and one of the coolest examples, I think, of a horse racing-themed game. And there's some other EM horse racing games and some games where you've got to roll the ball down. I'm trying to think of the name of the, I'll think of it. There's another, you know, just some cool EM stuff that you're either rolling a ball down and things where you're active and doing things I find pretty interesting.
    14:20
    So have you ever played one of the one-ball horse race games? I haven't. I've seen those. How are those different from the bingos? Because obviously with one ball, do you shoot it multiple times or you just get one play and that's it? You get one shot. One shot. And you're looking for a particular hole to win a bunch of credits, are you? Correct. Yep. Do you have any of those in your collection? Not yet. I plan to be picking one of those up here soon. But they're kind of like the precursors to the bingos. Okay. So, in fact, I mean, they're the direct ancestor. as soon as those were outlawed, then the bingos came about.
    15:05
    Yeah, they found a way to change it to make it legal for a time. Yes, so it's actually pretty interesting if you look at some of those one-ball games. In some jurisdictions, they made it so that you had five balls, but four of them would be trapped as soon as you shot.
    15:28
    Interesting. It's a five-ball skill game, but you can't actually play for the balls. So have you ever played a bingo?
    15:38
    I have played a bingo. It's been a while. My wife had gotten one for me for my birthday, which I thought was pretty amazing, but it didn't work, and I looked in the back, and it looked like a million relays, and I had sort of heard how difficult they were to troubleshoot and fix, so I ended up moving it along to someone who was going to bring it back to life. And now I kind of wish that I had it just for variety and something different. At the time, I just don't think I understood the differences or how unique they were and how much fun it would have been to have something just a little bit different. So I realized that variety is important. I'd have friends come over, and if they weren't into pinball, then they'd play the whirlybird or something else. and I realized that variety is good. My friends have wives and they have kids, and it's fun to have things from different eras, so it would be nice to have a bingo in the collection, but the one I had was too far gone, so I might need to try and find a nice example.
    16:42
    There's usually some good wood rail bingos that are kicking around in the Pacific Northwest. And, of course, the famous bingo technician, Dick Erlitz, I believe, lives out that way. In this neck of the woods? I believe so, yeah.
    17:01
    You might need to come and do a bingo roll at the Northwest Pinball and Game Room show or something like that. That would be great. I've never actually spoken to Dick. I need to reach out to him and say hello. But, yeah, that would be a bit of a trek for me, but it might not be for some other folks. So Todd, tell me about some of the other EM games that are in your collection Okay, let's see There's a game called All-American Basketball Which is pretty cool It kind of combines a shuffle game with basketball And so you slide the puck and aim for different switches And that'll cause a little basketball to be fired and if it goes into the hoop, then it scores, and you're playing against an opponent.
    17:59
    Sega Moto Polo is a pretty cool game from 1970, a Sega game where you're essentially sort of playing polo with little motorcycles. You've got a joystick, and they work on magnets, and they're kind of flying around the play field, and they kind of have these wings on the side of the motorcycles, and they try and push the ball into your opponent's goal. 1970 Sega Gunfight which is just kind of cool and has a mannequin thing you've got a couple of gunfighters and you're sliding them back and forth trying to get the right angle to be able to pull the trigger and use a wiper system to try and defeat your opponent Genco two-player basketball is a pretty cool game and head-to-head much like I was talking about with the winner it's a mannequin basketball game where the game will alternate giving 12 shots to each player. And if you happen to miss your hoop, it'll end up in your opponent's hoop, and that's kind of fun to help your opponent by accident.
    19:00
    Basketball Champ was the precursor to that one, which is fun as well, but it's just a one-player. And so when I can, I try and get multiplayer games just so that people can have a shared experience, and it's even better when it's simultaneous. I think it's 1952 or 1954 Derby by Chicago Coin is really cool, and it's got four sort of skill shot plungers and four people line up, and you just continue to fire the ball as if it's a skill shot, and the ball will go through lanes one, two, or three and make your horse move that far. So that's really fun to play. There's a goalie by Chicago Coin as well, and like I said, there's a whirlybird, which is kind of cool to be able to fly a helicopter around and actually have it flying and have a counterweight and have the propeller actually creating lift. And my brother is currently a military pilot in Canada and has had some experience with helicopters as well, and so he had the high score. And so I thought that was interesting that he was able to use those skills of flying a real helicopter, too, playing very well at that game. That is interesting. um let's see williams 10 strike from uh 1957 that's a really cool mannequin bowler and so i i really like the mannequin stuff the games that have a little character that are doing something human like whether they're bowling or playing skeeball or or shooting a basketball things like that i find really interesting and i think that kind of led into why i like bubble hockey so much, why I like Super Chex hockey. It's something that I grew up playing with most rinks that I played in, had one, and I realize it's basically a modern version of a mannequin game where you've got these ten hockey players out there that you're moving and spinning around. So my son and I have had some pretty good battles on that. So it's interesting to see how good someone can get at one particular thing, whether it's whose ball or pinball or bingo, there seems like there's specialists in everything, in darts and billiards. And so I thought I was good at bubble hockey. And then the coach from the Olympic team in basketball came over and I think he beat me 9-0. And I just realized that there's people that are playing on a whole other level. So I've always been pretty terrible at foosball, so I refuse to own one because I usually get beat at it.
    21:27
    That's one way to deal with that. I'll try and stack the deck a little bit. But yeah, it sounds like you have good taste there, because the mannequin games are incredibly fascinating to me.
    21:42
    Those are really cool games. And what a nice variety, too. You have basketball and bowling, and you've got the shuffle game with the basketball. That's really intriguing. Yeah, try and shake it up a little bit There's a Ski ball game, it's a little bit on the Digital side rather than the old Electromechanical sort of Flip scoring but It still feels old And I had a friend That we were in New York City And he said, you know, let's go to this bar That has Ski ball league and I said, I'd never I'd heard of pinball league and dart league And bowling league, I'd never heard of Ski ball league And I thought he was mistaken about what he was calling He was like, I know what skee-ball is. It's skee-ball league, trust me. So we went, and sure enough, it was skee-ball league, and he introduced me to this skee-e-o who was in his ninth skeezin', and we had a great time. And so I realized that there were some people that were super good at skee-ball. So I asked this CEO, this skee-e-o, what his best game was, and he told me to go to YouTube and type in, what is it,
    22:48
    best top skee-ball score or something like that, and it's a short video of him holding a camcorder, or perfect skee-ball, and he's holding a camcorder in his left hand, and he calls a shot like Babe Ruth, and you can see his finger point to the left 100-hole, and he proceeds to bank in nine shots off the mesh into the 100-hole, and he achieved his quest and got a perfect 900, and I think he stopped competing competitively in skee-ball. So it's kind of interesting how simple these games are, but just how hard they are to master. I think that's kind of the draw and the uniqueness of especially the EM games, that they're really sort of simple to understand but difficult to master. And I know that's a quote Dennis Nordman likes to use when talking about pinball design, that they should be easy to understand and difficult to master. So I find all those games really interesting, and when someone comes over, I like to kind of show them around and play everything at least once, and then it's interesting to see when I pull them after what their favorite is or what they want to play once the tour is done, and I'm not making them play everything at once, but it takes a little while to play everything. I don't know, are you familiar with, what's the name of it? It's a basketball game. It's from 1952.
    24:08
    I think it might be a Mike Munvis game. And anyway, there's, you know, the ping-pong balls will just kind of fly around in the bottom of the cabinet, and they fall into certain holes, and you've got to depress a lever to try and shoot the ball from that particular hole into the hoop, and that's a blast. But I think I might be All-American basketball, but sometimes I forget the names. But that one's really fun because two players are playing at the exact same time. And Sega, another basketball game that's got a big dome on it, and depending on where the ball falls, each player will have letters or numbers, I think one through 10 or 11 and the first player to hit that button, the solenoid will fire in their direction and give them a chance. So you're kind of waiting to see where the ball will settle before firing it. So I like the games that use a little bit of skill and timing. I think it's Brunswick. I think it may be a British company, and it just popped up on an auction site, and I thought it looked interesting and read the description. Basically, it was sort of a two-dimensional gunfight game where when the referee said draw, you had to hit the button before your opponent, and the one gunfighter would fire and hit the other one. So we've had some fun poker nights where we take a little break and run a little NCAA bracket tournament to see who the quickest gunfighter is, best two out of three. I think the only issue is that it's become somewhat predictable in terms of the interval. So if I was a smarter man, I would try to redesign it so that it was a little bit more random, where people couldn't just sort of jump the gun a little bit. But that's a pretty fun game, once again, one that's head-to-head.
    25:52
    And what's your favorite overall? Oh, man, that's my favorite EM overall, probably Moto Polo from 1970. It's almost like an electromechanical three-dimensional version of, a friend of mine called it Tron. It's like playing Tron where you've got these motorcycles going on a side and you're trying to, it just seems like you shouldn't be able to control this three-dimensional motorcycle under glass with a joystick back in 1970. And it's got these, you know, it's kind of got a grid with a magnet in the middle of it and everyone is sort of disappointed that they can't drive it anywhere on the court, you're sort of stuck on your half, and it would be physically impossible for the game to work with the way it's designed.
    26:41
    And if your motorcycle ends up coming off the magnet, there's a little button that activates a light which illuminates the play field, so then you can put your grid back on your motorcycle and start driving it again. So that one, I think you're probably supposed to play it with just one ball out there, but I decided to put a couple more ping pong balls out there just so it's a little bit more wild and so that one, people have a really good time with that. So that's really an interesting game in my collection that people really enjoy. It's like a weird version of air hockey.
    27:12
    That sounds very interesting. I've never heard of that one. Oh, if you ever make it out here to Seattle, it would be fun to show you around and we could play all this stuff. Sounds great so you mentioned that horse race game where you have four players lined up and it like a skill shot that you shoot Can you explain some more about kind of how that works?
    27:36
    Yeah, absolutely. So it's made by Chicago Coin, and you're just sort of standing in front of it, and each player just sort of has a little cascading grid, almost like a little bagatelle in front of them with a little plastic ball, in the right shooter lane, and you fire it up, and the ball, depending on how hard you hit it, it'll go back and forth on some bumpers at the top, and then there'll be, there's two number three lanes and a two and a one, and depending on which lane, if the ball falls down a three lane, it'll activate three switches on its way down, and each of the four horses are represented by actual sort of toy horses and riders in the back glass, and they have just a slotted piece of wood that they move down the track. And so if you're accurate and you hit one of the threes, then your horse will move quicker.
    28:30
    Okay, so when you're playing that game, you've got a three, two, or one. There's two three lanes, and so it's kind of interesting in a tie. Sometimes it'll be almost like a photo finish where two horses will be tied at the finish. and then at that point you look up at the scoreboard and one of the threes is worth more points than the other one. So even in a photo finish, there could be a difference in score, which makes it that much more interesting. So I think going head-to-head is fun, or having a game where three people are playing at the same time is fun. But when you get four in there, then there's usually a tight race and there's a lot of competition. So I like it when four people can play that. but there's a more modern version of that that came out of Poland, a manufacturer called Dowpole. And so it's a little bit more updated. It's got some rock and roll music and some LED lights, and basically instead of plunging, you're rolling kind of a bumper pool ball up a lane, and certain lanes will give your horse sort of a single boost, and higher holes will give it a double boost, and the top holes will give it a triple boost. And so you can kind of go on a nice run and a nice tear in that one, and it's kind of fun to hear the call-outs in that game. So that's kind of a more modern version. So there's some definite variety. There's some old stuff, there's some new stuff, there's some stuff in between, and people seem to enjoy the game room and the variety. Everybody seems to have their favorite. Excellent. And do you win replays on that, or is it purely competitive? I don't think you win replays on that one I think you would you know, got a free play button on there and you just hit it once if you want to play a one player version and then you just hit it up to four times to add players and I'm trying to think if the computer not the computer but if the game plays against you if you're playing by yourself I tend to think that the game may move one of the other horses I know with the more modern one from Dow Pull, if you're playing just a one player, then there's a fifth horse that activates, and it's computer controlled, and it just kind of moves at a constant speed, and so you have to do better than average to beat them. But whether, I can't remember, I think when you're playing one player, I think one of the horses moves mechanically, and you have to do well to beat it, but it's been down for a little bit, so I need to get tech out here to get that one going again. Gotcha. So, Todd, tell me a bit about how you got into pinball, because you mentioned as a child of the 80s you tended to drift more towards the video side.
    31:19
    Yeah, I definitely started out in video. Some of the places I like to frequent had pinball and video.
    31:28
    I am a bit of a slurpy addict. I'm trying to kick that habit a little bit. So I spent a lot of time in 7-Elevens in my home city of Winnipeg where I grew up. and so a lot of those 7-Elevens back then had a pinball machine, so it was a nice little ritual to go and get a Slurpee and play some pinball, games like Police Force and Whirlwind, which is a game that I have in my collection now, were games that I became fond of playing at different 7-Elevens and getting my daily Slurpee.
    31:54
    And then the roller skating rink and bowling alleys, they tended to have pinbot. There just seemed to be pinbots all over the city in Winnipeg, and so that was a game that I fell in love with. And so when I first, so I'd play at the bowling alley, I'd play at the roller skating rink, some of the ice rinks that I was at.
    32:13
    And then the arcades, I spent a lot of time at the mall, and I was more interested in playing games than shopping or anything like that. So every chance I could get, there's one arcade that would reward you for good grades with tokens. So I did well in school, and you bring in your report card, and you got some tokens. So that kind of kept me going for a little while. So I was also in a bowling league, and a lot of bowling alleys in Canada, at least back then, were five-pin bowling, so they were a little bit different. And in between my turns, I would go and start a game of pinball, and inevitably it would be my turn again before my pinball game was done. And so my classmates and friends would say, I don't even know why he bowls. It seems like all he wants to do when he comes here is play pinball. He might as well just stay up there and not hold us up. So I guess I had the addiction pretty young. And so when I was playing for the New Jersey Nets, we bought a home that had kind of an empty basement, and it seemed like there was room. And I had the fortune or misfortune of meeting someone, and I asked them what they did for a living. He said, I work for a company that sells pinball machines to people. And I said, you know, I want to get a pinbot because I always loved that game, and I want to get a Jurassic Park because I loved that game in high school, and I want to get a Whitewater because I loved that game in college. There were different games for different seasons of my life, and each of those games I played for years and years, and I thought I won't tire of them because it's been years and I've never grown tired of them, so I think it'll be a good investment and it'll be something that won't sit. And so I asked if they had those games, and they said, we have a Whitewater, and instead of a Pinbot, we'll give you a newer edition called Jackbot, which has had the same play field. And we don't have a Jurassic Park yet, but in the meantime, how about a Medieval Madness? And so I said, okay. So those were the three that I started with, and I thought there was something wrong with me. All I wanted to do was come home from practice and play the pinball machine. So I thought there was something seriously wrong with me, that this is what I wanted to do with all my free time. And so at one point when I first started operating, the jackpot went into a bar, a restaurant bar, as well as an Addams Family and a Fishtails. and unfortunately that place got struck by lightning in the middle of the night and ended up burning to the ground. And so there's one less Adams family out there, one less jackpot, and one less fishtails. And so my collection took a little bit of a hit with that. But anyway, that was a bummer. If another one of the locations I'm in gets struck by lightning, I'll know that's God telling me that I'm not supposed to be operating anymore. But I'll just call that other one a fluke, I guess.
    34:50
    Yeah, that's a big bummer. Yeah, that was a tough I was on vacation and I got a text That the bar had Had been struck by lightning and burned to the ground And I couldn't quite believe it But anyway I guess these things happen Unfortunately nobody got hurt Just some machines That's the important thing That doesn't make it any less Of a tough pill to swallow No, that's for sure Try and preserve the games. What's your favorite pinball machine? My favorite of all time? Yeah. Hmm. I am very partial to Pinbot. That was the first one I remember playing. Yeah.
    35:38
    Right now, I think I'd say Nightclub is my favorite. Did you say Nightclub? Nightclub, the bingo. Oh, the bingo. Got it. So how many do you have down there now? I think I heard in a recent one, are you 13, something like that? I have 13 games in the house. Six of them are bingos.
    36:01
    And, yeah, I'm always on the lookout for more. Do they pop up quite a bit on Craigslist, or how do you track them down? I guess you're kind of known as the bingo guy, so I'm sure people find you now through the podcast and things. but what's the normal channel for you locating those games? Yeah, actually, normally it's Craigslist. Yeah. There seem to be a lot of them here on the East Coast, and it kind of thins out as you go further Midwest, and then it kind of picks up a little steam as you go towards the West Coast. But, yeah, there's quite a few that pop up on Craigslist, and I check it pretty frequently. You know, the nice thing about a bingo is that most of the time they're relatively inexpensive.
    36:51
    Yeah. So it's pretty easy to start a bingo collection compared to, you know, jumping in with today's prices on like a medieval madness.
    37:03
    Right, yeah. So when did you start collecting? I think it was 2001 or 2002. It was around the time when I was with the New Jersey Nets and we had that house. And I got those three, and I thought there was something wrong with me because all I wanted to do was play them. And I thought, you know, those are three that I was very familiar with that I'd played at different stages of my life, and I hadn't played a lot of other titles. It just seemed like pinball was everywhere and whitewater was everywhere.
    37:34
    And so then I started sort of asking my friends. And, you know, pinball has always been a social thing for me. Some of my closest friends in college were also into pinball, sort of separately from me, and we would sort of keep an eye when we walked by the campus arcade and see who had the latest initials on Junkyard and some of the other high scores, and it was sort of a point of pride to get your initials up there and knock off your friend or teammate or roommate. And so we had a fun thing going there. And so that's – sorry, what was your question? I got off on a little bit of a tangent there. I was just asking about how you got started collecting. I guess the next lead-in is how did you get started in collecting these EM arcade games? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, being born in 1976, some of my first memories were Pinbot and Police Force and Whirlwind and some of those System 11 games. And so I kind of thought that I would just collect all the... I was playing Medieval Madness in college, where it seems like a lot of people had fallen out of Pinball or hadn't really kept up. It seemed like Pinball was on a nosedive. But since I was in school and had some free time and there were still arcades, I was still quite familiar with Medieval Madness and Monster Bash and Attack from Mars and those sort of games. So I was just sort of rounding out my collection, and I thought I'd be able to just stop there and be done.
    39:02
    And then all of a sudden, somehow, I think I was just surfing the web and sort of discovered Clay's EM repair sites and just pictures and flyers of all this really interesting, cool stuff. And so I spent a lot of time just sort of digesting and looking at all this cool stuff. And I guess one of the neat things about Pennsylvania is there just seems to be a lot of land and room for former operators to just kind of stow stuff. So it just seemed like there were lots of barns and finds. And so I hooked up with some people that had access to some of those things. And so when I would find something on Clay's site that looked really interesting, I'd make a call and see whether one might be available or if one could be found. And so some of that neat stuff was able to get dug up. And you kind of had to grab it when you could and then just get it to the right person to have it restored and brought back to life. So I think it was just sort of reading and watching videos and looking at pictures of all this stuff that happened before my time, but I still found them really interesting. I knew pinball had been around for decades, but really sort of pre-video games really wasn't aware of some of that EM arcade stuff that I find really interesting and tactile, and I think those mannequin-style games are fairly timeless, so I kind of got bit by that bug as well. So I tried to just kind of pick my favorites, and over the years some stuff has stayed and some have gone, but definitely I think the pinball machines are the things that I play when it's just me, but when people are over, I like to show everybody everything and let them try it all out.
    40:43
    Very good, very good. so do you have anything next on your wish list? I do, you know, I think I've, not that I've gotten away from the older EM Arcade stuff but I'm not really actively seeking out anything from that era but I am still really in tune with what going on with modern pinball and some of the new manufacturers and some of those projects so I really really interested to see how some of these new projects come along and some of these new manufacturers start producing their either their first game or their second game and just building. So there's just a lot of really cool technology going in to change the pinball experience, while at the same time recognizing what's cool about it, what's unique about it, and what's innately pinball and not messing with what we love about this game, but adding some really neat things with technology and screens and displays and things like that. So I think it's a pretty exciting time for pinball.
    41:45
    We've got the Pinberg sign-up coming up in December for a massive tournament that last year had almost 650 players and probably will be larger this year. So it's pretty cool. There's obviously people that have been collecting for a lot longer than me, But having started in the early 2000s, I think I got in before some other people. And for a long time, I just couldn't understand why not everybody was into this or why some people could play pinball and not get hooked on it. And it didn't make sense to me how sort of small it was. And even though it's not huge, it seems to be growing, and people are starting to sort of be affected in the same way and realizing that this is a really unique form of entertainment and there really isn't anything else out there that provides all of the stimulus that a pinball machine does. So it's kind of cool to see that I wasn't wrong and I wasn't alone. So we're all kind of in this support group together. But in being a competitive person and living in Seattle and having access to tournaments and the Seattle Pinball League and all the cool things that the International Flipper Pinball Association are doing, and we were lucky and fortunate enough to host the International Flipper Pinball Association World Championships here in 2012 at our home on Bainbridge. And so that was a unique experience to have 64 players from around the world come and stay at a local inn and just walk on down my driveway to compete in the guest room, in the garage, in the basement, and wherever I could, they like you to have 20 modern machines and 20 sort of solid state machines and 20 EMs. And so I was fine in sort of the dot matrix display era. I definitely needed some help in the 70s and 80s department and needed even more help in the 50s and 60s department. But like I said, the community, pinball community in general, and even more so here in Seattle were so helpful in bringing games and setting them up and maintaining them and providing a really unique environment for competition to take place. So that was kind of an honor to have some of the world's best pinball players come and duke it out here on our soil. Yeah, that must have been pretty neat to see and experience.
    44:06
    Yeah, it was cool. I didn't play as well as I would have liked to, but that's what happens when you invite the world's best to play. you find out that you're a small fish in a big pond, even though physically I'm a big fish.
    44:21
    So let's talk about competition for a minute. How do you feel about EMs in pinball competition? I like them. I don't know what it is. I don't own a lot of EMs, and the several that I have have come quite recently, And so I would feel like my expertise and my area of interest are modern dot matrix machines. But it seems like I'll go to a tournament that will have an electromechanical division and a modern division, and I'll start off with the modern ones. The lineups are a little bit longer in my experience, but that's where I want to spend my time. And I'll play and put up scores that I think will be good enough, and then I'll go over to the EM tournament. and there's typically less EMs and less lineups and sort of less interest, and I'll play those games and won't play them as many times, and it'll almost be started off as kind of a time filler, and then by the end I would have often qualified in the electromechanical division and then not qualified in the modern, so it was a little bit frustrating to not be as good at the era that I thought I would be better at and that I collected and had spent a lot more time at, and I don't know if it's that I play a little bit wild, a little bit on the fly, a little bit less control, and I think sometimes that style can end up working in an EM environment, and I think, you know, ability to saving the ball and just certain skills tended to translate better to the EM thing. So maybe that's part of why I'm starting to get more of an appreciation is I've had some success on some of the older machines. I think one of the only pinball trophies that I've won was the second place in an EM division at the Texas Pinball Festival, which ironically there happened to be an ESPN crew sort of following me around. This former basketball player is now playing competitive pinball, and they had asked me if there was an upcoming show that they might be able to film me at playing. I said, well, there's Texas. I said, I probably won't win anything. I never win anything. and then it just so happened that I won my first sort of pinball trophy when there happened to be a film crew following me around, and I was so excited to have won this trophy. And after I said goodbye to the film crew and flew home, I left the trophy at the table at McDonald's at the airport, and they made me aware of it, and I came back and got it. And then when I got up from the table to go to my gate, I left it at the table, and a nice person followed me and gave it back to me. I thought, what is it with me that I worked so hard for this trophy, and now I just seem to repel myself from it. And then I get to the park and fly and get home, take the ferry, and realize that I've left the trophy in the bathroom of the park and fly. And I just couldn't believe that three times I had tried to lose this trophy that I'd worked so hard for. So a tournament like Pinberg, you have to be proficient at modern and older games, and I think that's what makes it such an amazing tournament and why there's so much interest is you can't just be good at one type of game or one era, your skill set needs to transcend decades, and I think that makes that tournament a real true test. And I've done okay at those tournaments just because I like the older games, and I think they're kind of a great equalizer.
    47:43
    Now, do you have any particular competitive favorites in the EM era or Wood Rail era? Not really, just kind of whatever's there Although I didn't make the finals of my division in Pinnberg And so if you want, all the people that didn't make the finals Can go into a sort of a consolation tournament When 650 people are playing in Pinnberg The consolation tournament itself had to be like 250 people So it ends up being one of the world's largest tournaments even though it was the actual consolation tournament. And basically you're broken up into groups of three, and if you don't win, you have to win to not get a strike. If you get second or third in the game, you get a strike. Once you've had two strikes, you're out. And so I think I received a strike.
    48:34
    And then I got grouped up with Nate from Coast to Coast, Nate Shivers. And so we were supposed to play on a World Cup soccer, but it was down. and so we got reassigned to a card whiz, and so I had just received my card whiz, and I was feeling pretty good about it, although I didn't realize Nate's kind of a, I don't know if he's a self-proclaimed EM king, but I know he's good at them, and so I was feeling pretty good about my situation, and Nate just completely dominated me and gave me my strike and eliminated me from the tournament. So I would think card whiz normally, but that didn't work out too well. But I do like the drop target. I do like games with drop targets and Joker Poker and things like that. But I try and use my accuracy to my advantage.
    49:27
    And was one of those titles that you mentioned that you just received a big hit? Yeah, yeah, big hit is one of them. And for a while there it wasn't resetting. And all of a sudden it just kind of must have just worked its way out. I hit the start button enough times that it just fired up, and the score reel returned to the zero position. And so I've been having some fun with that. It's got the pop bumpers kind of in a unique configuration. And like some of the other games I have that are sort of different or unique or have some backlash animation, sometimes it's fun to have a separate category of keeping track of something. So there's kind of a home run score reel where you can keep track of how many home runs you have. So if I was ever running a side turn or something, it might be fun to say, forget the score, let's see who can get the most home runs and play a little side game. So that one's been pretty fun, too. It's got lots of drop targets at the top, and I think the very targets are pretty interesting, and the fact that the stronger you hit it represents single, double, or triple, depending on how hard you wail on the very target. So I think I need to get some more time on that, But having a lot of fun with Quickdraw, with Gottlieb Quickdraw. I'd certainly like having two in lanes as opposed to having one out lane and two in lanes. It seems to make me feel a little safer when the ball is on the side. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And Quickdraw, is that one with the kind of bagatelle setup on the right-hand side?
    51:00
    I don't think so. So it's just got five drops on the left and five drops on the right and some pop bumpers in the middle and a couple of saucer holes below those and a couple of lanes at the top. So I don't think it doesn't have a bag of tail feature on the right. I think that's a different game. Confusing that with Lawman or Fast Draw or something like that. Yeah.
    51:25
    Well, very good. Todd, can you tell us where your games are on location and what games they are? Yeah, I've got a Westside Pizza here on Bainbridge Island. It has No Good Gophers, Williams Indiana Jones, and Wheel of Fortune by Stern. And there's a couple of bobbleheads in there, and Maria is the middle character for Wheel of Fortune, but her plastic head kept falling off. So a friend of mine, who's handy, said, you know, do you want me to take your bobblehead and put it on Maria's body? So in my game on location, Maria has a male head. It's my bobblehead in my image, and so it's kind of interesting. It's kind of a one-of-a-kind. And at a place called Super Burger, which is a play on words, they serve soup or burgers, and they've got a superhero theme. So my stern Spider-Man is there, as well as a Pac-Man-Galaga combo. And down at Walt's Market that's owned by Walt, I've got a creature from the Black Lagoon and a cyclone. And sort of ironically, Walt's Market has changed locations. And back in the 80s, they were in another spot. And someone had reminded me, I used to go to Walt's old location and play cyclone there. So cyclones kind of come full circle and was new there in the 80s. And now it's come back. And that's kind of it for the pinballs that I have on location.
    52:59
    Well, that's great, and I really commend you for putting games out there, and I also commend you for stepping outside of your comfort zone. That's always an interesting experience when you start collecting something that's new to you, like we've done with your quite varied and interesting collection.
    53:22
    I appreciate it. I hope at some point you'll make it out here to maybe the Northwest show, show and I'd love to host you so we can play all this stuff. I hope you'll make it out here one of these days, months, or years. That would be excellent. Thank you very much for the invite.
    53:40
    If you're ever out on the East Coast, I'd extend the same thing to you. You'd get to come play some bingos. I would love to get your perspective on bingos and see how an expert does it. I'd love to see that skill put to use and discover one more thing that some people are uniquely good at. That'd be really cool.
    53:59
    Well, thank you very much, Todd, for your time, and I hope to talk to you again soon. All right, sounds good. Keep up the great shows. I appreciate it. Absolutely.
    54:11
    I want to thank my guest, Todd McCullough, for coming on the show and talking about his fantastic EM arcade and pinball collection.
    54:22
    And thank you very much for listening. My name again is Nick Baldridge. you can reach me at 4amusementonlypodcast at gmail.com or you can call me on the bingos line that's 724-BINGOS1 724-246-4671 you can listen to us on iTunes, Stitcher, Pocketcast, via RSS on Facebook, on Twitter at bingopodcast you can follow me on Instagram at nbaldridge or you can listen to us on our website which is 4amusementonly.libsyn.com thank you very much for listening and I'll talk to you next time