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The Pinball Show Ep 118: Scooby Doo And The Mystery Of The Never Ending Pasta Bowl

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 46m·analyzed·Dec 6, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Spooky Pinball announces Scooby-Doo as next game; Stern kills home pin line.

Summary

The Pinball Show discusses major news from Cincinnati's Pinsonati event, including Spooky Pinball's official announcement of Scooby-Doo Pinball as their next licensed title, Stern's discontinuation of home pin products (Star Wars, Jurassic Park), and details about the delayed James Bond 60th Anniversary game. The hosts analyze Scooby-Doo's licensing strength, voice actor confirmations, and art team assignments while reflecting on the Cincinnati power outage that disrupted the show.

Key Claims

  • Spooky Pinball secured a license from Hanna-Barbera to produce the world's first Scooby-Doo pinball machine, announced at Pinsonati 2024

    high confidence · Official announcement made at Cincinnati Pinsonati event; Craig Bobby segment details custom art by Matt Frank and Jeff Zornow, voice work from Frank Welker, Matthew Lillard, Kate Micucci, and Grey Griffin

  • Stern Pinball is discontinuing all three current home edition pins: Star Wars, Star Wars Comic Art, and Jurassic Park

    high confidence · Craig Bobby states this as official announcement; implies Stern is abandoning the affordable home pin line

  • James Bond 60th Anniversary Edition pinball will likely be revealed in mid-December, per George Gomez

    high confidence · Kyle Inamoto interview with Stern's Chief Creative Officer George Gomez via Marco Specialties stream

  • Stern has significant backorders and will likely not return to three cornerstone games per year until backlog is cleared

    high confidence · George Gomez statement in Marco Specialties interview

  • Stern is open to doing Vault editions and fans are requesting Tron and Lord of the Rings, but redoing White Star games like LOTR would be difficult from hardware perspective

    high confidence · George Gomez response to Jason Knapp question in Marco Specialties interview

  • Scooby-Doo features voice work from Frank Welker (Fred), Matthew Lillard (Shaggy), Kate Micucci (Velma), and Grey Griffin (Daphne)

    high confidence · Craig Bobby segment confirms all four voice actors in teaser trailer

  • Cincinnati Pinsonati power outage lasted from 9:30 AM to 3-4 PM, delaying show and extending late into night

    high confidence · Zach describes firsthand experience; show was originally scheduled to close at midnight but continued until 2-3 AM

  • Dr. John spotted Scooby-Doo beach towel in Spooky booth at Texas Pinball Festival 2021; Charlie Emery claimed it was for their dog Sally

    high confidence · Craig Bobby's segment details the Easter egg discovery story and Charlie's initial deflection

Notable Quotes

  • “I thought I was going blind, Dennis, but no.”

    Zach Minney @ early in episode — Humorous recounting of the Cincinnati power outage experience during shower

  • “Scooby-Doo, if done correctly, Scooby-Doo is maybe the perfect pinball license. It just works for pinball. It's creepy, it's kooky, mysterious and spooky.”

    Zach Minney @ during Scooby-Doo discussion — Core thesis on licensing quality; references Addams Family theme song

  • “I put Scooby-Doo up there with, for pinball especially, I put it up there in the A-plus tier. The Star Wars, the Jurassic Park. Scooby-Doo...it is the Saturday morning cartoon.”

    Zach Minney @ licensing comparison segment — Ranks Scooby-Doo alongside tier-1 licenses; establishes cultural weight assessment

  • “I would say it's probably their best license ever.”

    Dennis Creasel @ post-discussion assessment — Endorsement of Scooby-Doo as Spooky's strongest IP choice to date

  • “little old spooky pinball...they're still a small company. And here they go and secure the rights to not just Hanna-Barbera Scooby-Doo, the original.”

    Zach Minney @ licensing discussion — Acknowledges Spooky's competitive position relative to licensing access despite smaller scale

  • “Goodbye, Stern Home Pins! We hardly knew ye, but your sacrifice will not be forgotten.”

    Craig Bobby @ Top Stories segment — Eulogizes discontinuation of Stern's home pin line; reflects community sentiment

  • “I have no problem with Scrappy-Doo. I have no problem with Jar Jar Binks. I think it's just overblown, and people are jealous.”

    Dennis Creasel @ character discussion — Defends controversial sub-characters; contrarian take on community petitions against Scrappy

  • “Spooky, don't do that. For your own sales, don't do that, please.”

    Zach Minney — Explicitly cautions Spooky against including Scrappy due to fan backlash risk

Entities

Spooky PinballcompanyScooby-Doo PinballgameStern PinballcompanyCincinnati PinsonatieventGeorge GomezpersonCharlie EmerypersonDr. JohnpersonMatt Frankperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern home pin line characterized as failure; never hit volume targets; community preference for 'real thing' over affordable versions at 75% price

    high · Craig Bobby eulogy: 'never really hit volume highs'; 'never satisfied growing masses' wanting 'real thing not half-baked version'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern discontinues all home pin products (Star Wars, Star Wars Comic Art, Jurassic Park), signaling strategic exit from affordable tier

    high · Craig Bobby states 'officially last call' and calls it 'not-so-shocking announcement, first speculated on TPS'; reflects failure to achieve volume targets

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong fan concern about Scrappy-Doo inclusion in Scooby game; Pinside petitions requesting character exclusion

    medium · Zach explicitly warns Spooky against including Scrappy; references extensive forum discussion; Dennis defends character as fan backlash overblown

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Spooky Pinball now ranked as second-strongest licensing operator after Stern by hosts; characterized as no longer boutique but mid-sized competitor

    medium · Dennis: 'I would say it's probably their best license ever'; Zach acknowledges Spooky beyond boutique status; comparison with Jersey Jack licensing struggles

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky selecting original Scooby-Doo IP versus contemporary versions (Pup Named Scooby-Doo, CN series) indicates commitment to nostalgic iconic aesthetic

    medium · Zach notes Spooky 'could have funked it up' but chose 'OG, original mysteries, original concept artwork...original Scooby-Doo at its best, most iconic'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.321

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:12
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. This week on the Pinball Show, I'm recording on location from Cincinnati as Dennis and I discuss the Cincinnati Power Outage. Spooky Pinball announcing their next game, Scooby-Doo, Where Are You Pinball? We also talk about licensing, Bond's 60th anniversary game details, Stern Pinball updates, a new multi-morphic P3 game launch, Chicago Gaming Company updates, and rumored next remake. Honing my inner spooky pinball for pinball market trends, understanding basic mathematics, Olive Garden, Deal of the Creech, and much more. It's 118, y'all.
0:58
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
1:15
Hey everybody, what's going on? It's the Pinball Show. This is episode 118. I'm Zach Minney alongside Dennis Creasel. Dennis, how's it going? It's going well from far, far, far away. We're doing it remote. We're always remote from each other, but you have constructed some sort of contraption, an apparatus, perhaps an abomination in an attempt to properly record and be able to hear me at the same time. You took the words right out of my mouth, PJ. Yeah, the situation I'm in is in a hotel room. Probably should have already checked out. Hopefully they don't charge me for an additional day here. But I've got wires and gizmos. So, listeners, my vocals are shite. That's why. I've got a lapel set up on sweet Ryan White from CGC. Let me borrow his laptop. I'm speaking to you through a telephone, through Skype. It's a whole thing. But we had to record. There's some big news this week. There turned out to be huge news. And unfortunately, I am so busy with work on Monday, I wouldn't be able to put something together with you tomorrow. So here we are having to record our usual time. We've got to do it. The people want it. This weekend, you're right, I am at. The Cincinnati show, termed Pinsonati, this is their fourth year. They continue to get larger and larger every single year. And this weekend, numerous people, I want to give a shout-out to numerous people that had come up and say they're huge fans of the pinball show. A lot of them big, big Creasel fans there. They like his honesty. And I came back and I'm like, does that mean I'm not honest? Like maybe I'm oversensitive to that. Yeah, you've B-plussed your way out of that probably. Maybe, maybe. But I get that when I go to shows. I go to shows and people come up to me and tell me how much they love our work, but it's always complimenting either you or Greg Bone. So I'm like, what am I, chopped liver here? I'm the one here. Yeah, they should give you some compliments. But how often do people compliment me to you? I don't know. But honestly. See? But getting complimented for honesty is a bit of a weird thing because it's not difficult. So, I mean, imagine being a liar and having to keep all your lies straight. It would be very challenging, I think. Ain't nobody got time for that. No, no time. That would suck. Speaking of no time, this show on Saturday, arguably the busiest day of any convention, had no power. Whoa. Guess that's why they didn't call it Power Sonati. It was a total first for me and many attendees here. that uh what you've never experienced a power outage not from the midwest oh well that's true but not at a show i've never been to a show where the power goes out and it was down for uh let's see show started at 10 it went out at 9 30 i was in the shower and the lights went off it was pitch dark i was in the shower and i the first thought i had to myself is mama always said if i keep playing with it i'll go blind and i thought this is it this is it this is how it all ends here in this shitty-ass Holiday Inn hotel, touching myself in the shower. I thought I was going blind, Dennis, but no. And it stayed off until 3, until 4 o'clock. So there was no show. There was no show. They had to delay the show until there was power. And once it turned back on, it was supposed to go until midnight. Some people were upset, you know, I need to get my money back, rightfully so. Poor Chuck Wirt, who's one of the organizers of the show, he was, I spoke with him shortly during this. He was just a neurotic mess, of course. He was just bummed out. He's like, I just don't want people to be pissed off at us. I'm like, the whole town is out of power. This is not a Cincinnati thing. I think people are going to understand you have no control over a transformer exploding a couple miles down the road. Yeah, it's interesting. I actually did have this happen at a conference I organized. Oh, really? Yeah. It's a much smaller group than Cincinnati would be. But yeah, a work conference. This was a couple of years ago. So yeah, it was in the summer. It was hot. And same sort of scenario, a transformer blew.
@ Scrappy-Doo discussion
Jeff Zornow
person
Frank Welkerperson
Matthew Lillardperson
Kate Micucciperson
Grey Griffinperson
Matt Count D. Montgomeryperson
Chuck Wirtperson
Kyle Inamotoperson
Craig Bobbyperson
Zach Minneyperson
Dennis Creaselperson
Marco Specialtiescompany
Jack Dangerperson
James Bond 60th Anniversarygame
Hanna-Barberacompany
  • ?

    event_signal: Cincinnati Pinsonati experienced major power outage; delayed 6-7 hours but recovered through extended operating hours and community resilience

    high · Zach firsthand account; 9:30 AM outage until 3-4 PM recovery; show extended from midnight to 2-3 AM; Chuck Wirt crisis management noted

  • ?

    leak_detection: Dr. John spotted Scooby-Doo beach towel Easter egg in Spooky booth at 2021 Texas Pinball Festival; Charlie Emery deflected with false explanation about dog

    high · Craig Bobby's detailed narrative confirms Dr. John's investigative discovery and successful deduction over 3-year period

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Scooby-Doo positioned as A-tier license; ranks alongside Star Wars/Jurassic Park for pinball market; original 1969 IP with sustained cultural relevance

    high · Extensive host discussion of IP strength; nostalgia factor emphasized over recent relevance; comparison to Flintstones, Jetsons, classic cartoons

  • ?

    community_signal: Jack Danger hired by Stern Pinball as newest designer; designed Jurassic Park home pin; popular Twitch streamer joining manufacturer staff

    high · Craig Bobby notes hire; Jurassic Park design attributed to Danger; implies inability to save home pin line despite talent influx

  • ?

    announcement: Spooky Pinball officially announces Scooby-Doo Pinball at Cincinnati Pinsonati; licensed from Hanna-Barbera with original artwork and voice talent

    high · Craig Bobby segment confirms official announcement with Matt Frank/Jeff Zornow artwork, Frank Welker/Matthew Lillard/Kate Micucci/Grey Griffin voice work

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern planning game releases into 2025; James Bond 60th Anniversary expected mid-December reveal; significant backlog preventing return to three cornerstone games/year

    high · George Gomez statement via Kyle Inamoto/Marco Specialties interview; explicit timeline and production constraints

    • 5:30
    And we lost power to the convention hall that we were hosting in. And so I have presenters going. In our instance, it was a very well-windowed location. So there was still plenty of natural light. But it's the summer. Sure. So it's already like 90 plus outside. And that's my big concern is I've got people here. I can, the show can kind of go on. Like I can keep having the presenters try and go, even though we don't have any power. But it's like, what am I going to do about the comfort level? What's going to happen? You know, as this room starts to heat up. And then it turned out actually also, I, you know, I, I over-assumed in terms of my next presenter. We had just had a set start and they were going to run for about an hour or two. Our next presentation was going to be an hour and a half away, basically. But theirs was a YouTube-based one. So I didn't realize this. They're there in person, but they were doing a presentation on – well, I'm sure the listeners love this, but kind of interesting, kind of tied to pinball in some way – on risk communication. So they were going to go through a bunch of real-life examples of people that had a PR disaster and did a good job. And people had a PR disaster and did a really bad job. It was relevant to pinball, yeah. And they actually did get the transformer fixed in time for that. And after she did her presentation, she came up to me and she said, yeah, I was really nervous because my whole thing is based off of YouTube. And I, you know, just being me said, well, you know, we weren't going to delay it. I just assumed you were going to act these YouTube pieces out for us, you know, like theater. and we would just move on because you have them memorized, right? You know your presentation. Well, I'm happy that here at Pinsonati it is the winter, and it was 20 degrees out instead of 90 because a lot of pinball people and the 90-degree box is not a place I particularly want to be. Not too many stinkies this year, a couple stinkers, but overall been a big turnout. And at 20 degrees, everybody stayed fresh. That was good. But overall, it's been fun. But what saved that show and what saved the power outage, number one, it's been kick-ass the whole time. Number two, they ended up going. It was supposed to close at midnight. I think people were partying until like 2 or 3 in the morning. They just left it open. And this is kind of a close-knit localist show. Everybody kind of knows everybody. It's very, very pinball. It's only pinball. There's no big seminars. It is just a big pinball hall, and it is a big foyer or a big entrance into the hotel that hosts the tournament. So the stream is wonderful. Go to SDTM Pinball on Twitch. Chuck Ward did a phenomenal job, and the commentators are second to none in this area. I don't know why, but they are phenomenal. They could be national commentators in pinball. They're really, really good. So shout out to them as well. Well, I'm glad they recovered from it. It does really make me wonder, what would have happened at a different show? Do you think if the power had gone out at Expo, the entire vendor booths would have been stolen?
    8:40
    You know what? I would bitch then because I'd be like, damn it, I paid $300 for this electricity. That's a good point. Yeah. Oh, man. It's been a lot of fun. We're getting ready to break down our booth. We sold a lot of machines. and also what saved the show number three was, and we'll talk about it here in a minute after Craig Bobby's segment, but Spooky Pimble came in, played the superhero, and there was speculation that they were going to actually announce at the small but vastly growing Pinsonati show, which blew my mind.
    9:19
    And I talked to the guys, and they were like, they kind of gave me the, yeah, we're about to drop something here. And it was pitch dark, but they came in, And we'll talk more about it after the segment, but huge news out of Cincinnati this weekend that's going to make everybody forget about any power outage. Shocking.
    9:48
    Hello and welcome back to the Pinball Show's Top Stories. I'm Craig Bobby. Now before we get into our exciting lead story for this week's episode, I'd like to start by telling the tale of a youngish but handsome reporter from Australia that happened to be a maxillofacial surgeon by day and an intrepid news reporter for the Pinball Show by night, who was focusing his crazy reporting talents on the wacky world of spooky pinball, as well as the Australian-based boutique manufacturer, Haggis Pinball. Yes, the pinball show's very own Dr. John was casually walking the floor at last year's Texas Pinball Festival when he innocently walked by the booth of Spooky Pinball one morning before the show had opened, only to notice that on the table in the spooky booth was a beach towel and the theme of, you guessed it, Scooby-Doo! Say what? Hmm, that's interesting. Could they be cheeky enough to be given the attendees present at the Texas Pinball Festival in 2021 an Easter egg and clue for the next title once they were finished their production run of Halloween and Ultraman? Dr. John, who was never one to back away from a good question circled back to the spooky booth later that day to chat with spooky owner Charlie Emery and after some brief pinball banter like Hey, how about those bricking ramps in Halloween? He casually meandered the conversation in the direction of the Scooby-Doo beach towel that he had spied in the booth earlier that day and might spooky be hiding their next theme in plain sight? Charlie, the ever-sly salesman with the gift for the gab tried, unsuccessfully I might add, to direct John's attention away from said Scooby-Doo beach towel by saying, claiming at the time that the beach towel had been brought to the spooky booth for many years, mainly to be used as a comfort blanket for their tiny dog, Sally. Well, based on the official announcement from Spooky Pinball this past weekend at this year's Pinsanati Pinball Festival in beautiful downtown Cincinnati, Ohio, It would now seem that in fact, Spooky did have the license from Hanna-Barbera all along to produce the world's first Scooby-Doo pinball machine.
    12:08
    So a big hats off to our retired Spooky and Haggis reporter, Dr. John, who was hot on the trail of Spooky's next title last spring at TPF. We knew you had it right all along, Dr. John. We knew you had it right. Now, not all that much is known about the new upcoming Scooby game, which, like I mentioned, is licensed and known by Hanna-Barbera and debuted to kids across America on CBS television way back on September 13, 1969. What is known is that there will be some custom art by Matt Frank and Jeffrey Zorno, with custom call-outs by a number of fairly well-known actors, including Frank Welker, who has voiced Scooby-Doo in the past, Matthew Lillard, who has voiced Shaggy since 2010 and has played him in two live-action movies, Kate Micucci as Velma and Gray Griffin as Daphne. So stay tuned as I'm sure Spooky will reveal production and sales information soon as their builds for the very financially successful Halloween machine begin to wind down. And with the birth of one machine in the pinball world, we have news of the end of another. Yes, it's officially last call time over at Stern Pinball for all three of their current home edition pins. Star Wars, Star Wars Comic Art and Jurassic Park as Stern Pinball officially says goodbye to these three and only current home edition pins. This not-so-shocking announcement, first speculated on TPS by Zach and Dennis on our last episode, can only leave one to draw the conclusion that Stern is in fact abandoning ship on their more affordable, in quotes, pinball line which has never really hit the volume highs to make it worthwhile to design and manufacture and certainly never satisfied the growing masses of pinball enthusiasts who only ever wanted the real thing. Not a half-baked version of the game at three quarters of the price. Yes, not even Jack Danger himself with his popular Twitch pinball stream and who recently joined Stern's ranks as their newest pinball designer whose first design effort of the Jurassic Park home pin could breathe life back into the slowly sinking ship of the Stern pinball home pin concept. And isn't it ironic that the pure popularity that Stern has brought into the pinball hobby, seemingly bringing it back from a Jurassic-level extinction, and instead raising pinball's popularity to dizzying heights in the last decade, is also the same popularity that is driving the dagger deep into the heart of this now-dying Home Pin product line. Goodbye, Stern Home Pins! We hardly knew ye, but your sacrifice will not be forgotten. Now, can Stern please get back to innovating, designing, and manufacturing real pinball machines, says the literally thousands of customers that are still waiting for the Godzilla pinball machines. Now, speaking of getting back to it, there's been a lot of speculation recently about what Stern Pinball will finally unveil at its much-delayed special edition Keith Elwin-designed, single-level, James Bond 60th Anniversary Edition pinball machine, But we now have word courtesy of Kyle Inamoto from Markle Specialties with their recently streamed interview of Stern's Chief Creative Officer George Gomez, who stated that the super high-end game will probably be revealed in mid-December. Also of note, George Gomez stated that Stern still has a lot of back orders, so much so that the company will probably not go back to three Cornerstone games per year until it works through this backlog. During the interview, Jason Knapp from Knapp Arcade asked George Gomez about the potential for a Vault edition of a Stern game coming out anytime soon. Gomez said that the Vaults are still a thing that Stern is open to doing and knows that many pinball fans are clamoring for a Tron or maybe a Lord of the Rings pinball vault. Come on, George, give it to us! But in reality, from a hardware perspective, redoing a White Star game like Lord of the Rings would be very difficult. Plus, Stern currently has product plans spanning years into the future. Today, they're already talking about games that the company is going to roll out in 2025.
    16:09
    Could this be another red herring designed to take another intrepid reporter off the case that is hot on the trail of the truth? Or is this the hard and honest reality that pinball fans shouldn't be holding their breath anytime soon for a Tron or Lord of the Rings vault from Stern Pinball? Well, we shall have to wait and see. Well, another hectic and busy week, Zach and Dennis, in the pinball world. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    16:38
    All right, Dennis, the moment has come for Spooky Pinball. They are building Halloweens. They're building the rest of the Ultramans. They've announced TNA 2.0 that they're building. Did you think that we would hear an announcement for their next officially licensed game yet? No, I didn't. I thought it would just be a little bit later, like at the start of 2023. I figured it was close. The TNA run was really the only thing. I thought they would wait closer to the end of that. Granted, I don't know how long it will take them to build all those out because they didn't sell out of the full allotment that they planned. I didn't think they'd do it at Cincinnati. Well, yeah, I didn't think that. And I didn't think this was the timing-wise. I thought, no, you still give yourself about three months to build the rest of the things. Because Spooky does a pretty good job, if my memory serves correct, that when they do announce, there's not much time that passes before they do start rolling out these games. Now, we know that for the Halloween and the Ultraman, they did up the number of units they were going to build. But they still hit that 18-month deadline to produce all of them, if not a little bit less, similar to their previously released game. So I was quite surprised because if they're announcing their next title now, which is Scooby-Doo, and we'll go into detail here in a bit. Doinks. But if they're – Jinkies. But if they're announcing that now, I bet they're going to start producing this thing fairly quickly. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I thought we'd see a March announcement maybe. But good on them. It means that things are going well over there, and I know they are cranking out machines. But yes, they did announce, Spooky Pinball did come to Cincinnati to announce the title and some of the details of their next major release in a pinball machine, which is going to be Hanna-Barbera's Scooby-Doo Pinball. Now, I've got to contain myself a bit here, Dennis. Well, that's not really going to happen, but okay.
    18:39
    I just get in trouble for liking new things. It does get tiresome. I get it. Your giddiness, your childlike innocence when it comes to theme and theme alone. I agree about the importance of theme. But does it blind you? It could. But I think it's going to be blinding thousands of people because, to me, Scooby-Doo, if done correctly, Scooby-Doo is maybe the perfect pinball license. It just works for pinball. It's creepy, it's kooky, mysterious and spooky. It's all together, that's the Addams Family.
    19:21
    Scooby-Doo works for pinball. And Scooby-Doo is a huge, huge license. They could have funked it up. They could have did a pup named Scooby-Doo. They could have done the new Cartoon Network Scooby-Doo. They didn't. They are doing OG, original mysteries, original concept artwork. They're doing original Scooby-Doo. at its best, its most iconic. Is there anything more nostalgic?
    19:47
    Probably. This dates back to the 70s. This IP is still going strong today. It's there with Flintstones and Jetsons and stuff. Hey, Jetsons, that's another game they worked on. You know what? I'm going to give it the hedge over both of those. I would put it ahead of Jetsons. I don't think I would put it ahead of Flintstones. But there is already a Flintstones pinball machine. Yeah, I think Flintstones was more iconic to more people. Flintstones has come and gone. Yeah, but we're only talking about the original Scooby. We're not talking about whatever the new Scooby stuff is. I don't know if there's new Flintstones or not. Well, I think because of the strength of the IP, I think that's why Scooby-Doo would be bigger. I put Scooby-Doo up there with, for pinball especially, I put it up there in the A-plus tier. The Star Wars, the Jurassic Park. Scooby-Doo, if you think about, it's up there for me, it is the Saturday morning cartoon. It's up there with Disney animation. Some of their biggest hit movies. I don't want to be dismissive because I do agree with you that it is a very large license. But I don't know how many people decorate an entire room in their house full of Scooby-Doo stuff like they do with Star Wars and Jurassic Park. Maybe I hung out with too many stoners in college because it's not just kids that love Scooby-Doo. It's adults, psychedelic people. I don't think it was a – I think it might be their best licensed pick. It's tough because there's a certain cultural zeitgeist relevance to Rick and Morty, which I think really, really, really worked for Spooky. That is, I don't think, true anymore for Scooby-Doo, but Scooby-Doo's got a lot stronger nostalgia for obvious reasons because there is no nostalgia for Rick and Morty. It's too new. And on that grounds, the nostalgia grounds, I think it's probably – I would say it's their best license ever. I think you may be right. But I don't put it up there with the Star Wars. But there's nothing that's like Star Wars. Star Wars is so different than everything else. I'm just thinking any animation license. It's up where we're citizens. I mean, gosh.
    21:52
    Scooby-Doo, again, it depends on what generation and group. Everyone knows Scooby-Doo is the thing. Depending on who you are, I would still, even if you weren't a huge Scooby-Doo fan, I mean, it's going to be right there in the upper echelons of people remembering the G.I. Joe cartoon and the Transformers cartoon and the Smurfs. I mean, it's just like Ninja Turtles. Yeah, Ninja Turtles. It's there. So it's a dynamite license. It makes me question why some other manufacturers stumble so, so horribly with licensing. And then here's little old spooky pinball. And I say that because I know that they're a major manufacturer. We can't give them the card of boutique company anymore. But they're still a small company. And here they go and secure the rights to not just Hanna-Barbera Scooby-Doo, the original. And then we'll talk about some of the assets they get. And it's original Scooby-Doo. Let's pause a bit and explore that, if you don't mind. Where do you think they are on? I mean, because they're really public on their productions. Obviously, they're smaller than Stern and Jersey Jack and I would say Chicago Gaming, but are they fourth? They put out more games than American Pinball, don't they? I would think so, yes. I really think so. I know the scale goes way down once we move past Stern Pinball, but Spooky is – I know they like to say we put the boo in boutique, but in the world of pinball, they're pretty big at this point. They are pretty big. And when it comes to licensing, they're number two in my opinion. I would agree. I mean, we'll have to see if the rumors are true about Chicago Gaming moving beyond doing remakes. But I kind of treat that differently. And then Jersey Jack lately, I just don't know what's going on with their license picks. I completely agree. As we're getting into the details, listener, we know that the custom art on this game is going to be done by two artists. I don't know what that means. I need to poke Luke and Bug to see what that means. I'm going to guess one of two things. Either they're going to have different, like a collector's edition and a standard edition, and they're going to have dramatically different art packages, or perhaps someone's doing the sides and another the translate, or someone's doing the sides and translate and another the play field. Okay. All right. We know that it's Matt Frank who did Ultraman wonderfully, I might add, and Jeff Zornow who worked on Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, who did phenomenally as well. So what Spooky's art package is usually at least discounting the play field, which I think is more debatable. But their their cabinets and translates other than like, well, like America's Most Haunted. It's been pretty good for a long time. Yes. Yeah. And the art's the one redeeming thing about Rob Zombie. And both of these artists received critical praise for both of those, you know, aforementioned machines. So using both of them, that's going to be these names are these names are I would view these as a positive. I wondered, Dennis, if when I hear Jeff Zornow, I remember the animation on Alice Cooper. I think he did a lot of that artwork because it was like a static imagery kind of thing with transitional motion. But I'm wondering if Zornow maybe is doing a lot of the animation pieces, whereas Matt Frank is doing a lot of the illustrated artwork on the game. I don't know. I could see it. I mean, it was – yeah, I just don't know yet. To me, it wouldn't be too weird. I mean, we're used to the zombie yetis of the world doing the whole physical art package, but there's no reason it has to be that way either. I can see one doing the play field and someone else focusing on maybe everything else, including the hand-created aspects for the display. And we know recent releases from Spooky Pinball, even if it's a Bloodsuckers Edition, Collectors Edition, Standard Edition, that generally in the past, if that's going to be a determinant, is they don't change the art packages much. Right. You might get butter. Right. You might get a little bit different train. But for the most part, it's the same package. So that's what made me. But they could. I mean, obviously, if they wanted to change their mind. Normally, I think their collector's editions sell the best, usually because I think the way they do. They have a sales model where if you take the upper end one, you get to the front of the line. So I remember that hardly anyone ordered standard edition Rick and Mortys because there was such a disincentive. You're at the end of the 18-month run if you're the standard. If for some reason they were changing up how they were doing the ordering in terms of receiving it and they were worried about people starting to choose standards because they make less money on them for example I could see doing a separate art package where the standard has scrappy on it and you force everyone to upgrade Right There so much discussion on Pennside about petitions going on about leaving out Scrappy I'm in unless there's Scrappy-Doo. He is like one of the most, if not the most hated classic cartoon character of all time. I think I just relate to some of these hated characters because I have no problem with Scrappy-Doo. I have no problem with Jar Jar Binks. I think it's just overblown, and people are jealous. That's all. They're jealous for these sub-characters. Give me a Scrappy-Doo mode. I don't care.
    27:16
    Spooky, don't do that. For your own sales, don't do that, please. Music is by Matt Count D. Montgomery, who we all know is the bassist for Rob Zombie. He has worked with Spooky Pinball for a number of releases now, so that's a highlight for a lot of people as well. I can't think of anything he's worked on pinball-wise that people turn their nose up at. So that's a good sign.
    27:41
    And the big thing for me, and during the announcement of the teaser trailer that you can see on their YouTube page, voice work by characters from this franchise, legit voice actors that have voiced these major characters, including the OG of Fred from Scooby-Doo, Frank Welker. Frank Welker has done things like Tom and Jerry Smurfs, my favorite Inspector Gadget in the 80s. He's even done Megatron, a lot of different Transformers. He's done Fred, and hell, he did Scooby for a lot of stuff, too. I don't know if he's doing Scooby here, but Frank Welker, that's a big one. That's a big get there. We also have, selfishly, one of my favorite actors, probably for the wrong reasons, but they were able to attain Matthew Lillard, who did the live-action Shaggy, and subsequently after, he's been doing the vocals for Shaggy for many iterations of the animated series and different films thereafter, but I've been starting a thing. It's hashtag Matthew Lillard for the win, because live her alone. Scream, come on. Just get mad, right? Better live her alone. never alone oh liver liver liver yeah yeah no i just i was just thinking if it was who i i thought it was because i didn't see the live action movie so i was a hacker yeah no i yeah and uh he was also in hackers yeah packers is what everybody knows yeah and he also uh had a recurring uh role on the hit police procedural Bosch. You did watch that show for a while. I watched all of Bosch. Because I read the books. Did he do well in that? Yeah, I mean, he's only in maybe three episodes. Because he plays a CIA agent or something. That's not what the show focuses on. He got a headshot, didn't he? He died. This is like he was showing his more mature acting chops. Because I still always think of him as the stoner kid guy from Hackers. Always being kind of like the surfer bro and the same thing and and uh the same thing in scooby-doo is shaggy yeah he did we also get kate mccoochie i feel weird saying it like that mccoochie maybe maybe it's a mccoochie uh she plays velma on a lot of the newer scooby-doo stuff i i know kate because uh i'm a comedy fan and she is one hell of a comedian uh and she does the musical comedic duo of garfunkel and oats many of you know that. And if you Google her, and if you see her face, she's in all kinds of films and stuff. And they have Gray Griffin. She does Daphne on a lot of the newer stuff, as well as a lot of vocal acting throughout animation, video games, etc. So we've got a lot of the voice actors probably doing custom call-outs. We'll hear that soon. Frank Welker's the big one. I've heard it. He's hard to get. I'm not super familiar with a lot of voice actors. I will say, you know, With Pinheads, a lot of people would have probably liked it to have seen Mark Silk announced doing Scooby. I heard that. I did hear that.
    30:59
    And while Mark Silk is phenomenal, when you can get the actual voice actors from these characters, I know that he does Shaggy and Scooby in a lot of work as well. These are from the feature films, the feature series. I think even Mark Silk would be like, yeah, I get it. I don't know, because it's going to sell out anyway. Yes, that's true. In the teaser, we got hints to some of the objectives, such as finding clues, collecting Scooby Snacks, solving original series mysteries. Are you doing the Scooby for it? Because I didn't see it flat out confirmed who was doing Scooby in the list, and you just did your Scooby laugh. Why is my fan turning on in my hotel? Hold up. It's overheating. That penalty of your Scooby is death. Death by convection oven.
    31:58
    What if the entire world was a convection oven and now the air is just circulating? The dankest, darkest of hotel rooms. The dankest, it's dark in here.
    32:09
    Get the hell away from there. Six times. I shot him six times. Six times. No, I'm not Scooby-Doo. Okay. Maybe like, Mark Silk did train me well to do a Shaggy and a Scooby. But no, I don't know who's doing Scooby. Well, I mean, the game stuff sounds like this, you know, as you mentioned, collecting the Scooby snacks and finding clues. So it sounds like they have latched on to a very obvious way to integrate this into pinball. It writes itself, yeah? Yes. Yeah, that's a better way to say it. It writes itself. I was looking within the forums, and Spooky's usually pretty open, and they communicate well in the forums. God bless them, because I don't know if that's advantageous or not, but they do so. And they were hinting and teasing at a lot of sculpts in this game. A lot of sculpts. They said it's kind of, you know, loaded kind of deal here. They're filling out that environment that, well, under dog eyes.
    33:15
    I mean, actually, I could see. I'm wondering, have you checked yet? I know you've been at the show and seen if Amazon is having a sale on Scooby-Doo cake toppers because that would get them a lot of sculpts. And we know that's a tactic that others enjoy. You didn't say custom sculpts, so I just have to wonder. Like it's a low blow, dude. I thought it was somewhat fair. I'm saying you want a lot of sculpts Amazon use Amazon Smile and support my non-profit oh you know how many times I heard that joke as I stood at the show by Toy Story 4 none I'm the only one who's told you this joke I'm the only creative person you know look at all those toys I did see somebody was like okay well sculpts are one thing but we like mix we like interactive mix sculpts whatever and then they were kind of trolled back Spooky did and was like, what do you think the sculpts are attached to?
    34:13
    The play field. Maybe there's a lot of mechs in this game, too. I don't know. I don't want to hype myself up too much. Hey, there could be more servo mechs. There you go, Bruce Nightingale of Slam Tilt. More servo mechs.
    34:26
    I hope they got rid of those in-length elevators, please. What? No. You defended those in your review. I did not. I said they don't. To me, you did. I think you and I may be quote, because I don't remember anymore. They're not that bad, Dennis. Well. I'm tired of waiting 20 seconds to get my ball back. They work. According to another podcaster, no, they break all the time. Oh, I don't. Mine don't break. So I don't know. I can just go off. Yours are very strong, like mountain. Like bull. Oh, bull. My favorite quote in the whole teaser trailer was, we're going to be pinball famous. That was a nice little nod to us pinheads and to us media creators. So thank you with that. We do know that the collector's edition of this game, the highest model, being offered by Spooky Pinball, the guys told me that it will be under $10,000.
    35:23
    So that is, I guess, if there is an increase, if they are increasing prices, it's not much. It's a couple hundred bucks because... What was the CE for Halloween? I thought those were like $9,000, $9,500.
    35:36
    Okay. So $99,999. Yeah, and that's what I mean. Maybe they increase it. Maybe they keep it the same. But under $10,000 in this environment, when Stern has gone up to $13,000 for an LE and Jersey Jack has gone to their top model at $15,000, this, I think, is music to a lot of people's ears. Especially if they're talking about sticking a lot of stuff in this game. We're going to know more this week as dealers here and the community here is more on pricing, how many units they're going to produce, different trim levels, features of the game, more information. We're not going to have to wait too long. It's coming this week. And you guys can hear it from the creators themselves, the reps of Spooky Pinball, on their Facebook Live this Thursday at 7 Central.
    36:22
    So tune in and ask them. It's like a Q&A, I think they do. Okay. Well, and again, you probably, I'm going to assume, don't have these answers because I don't see them in these lists. And I could wait, but I don't like to wait. So do we know who did the layout? Oh, that's a good question. We do not. Thus, I'm assuming we're going back to Chorus Barloff. Oh, so designed by committee. Okay. What about the software? See, I don't know. When it comes to rules, I don't even know. They've had people come in, go out. I don't even really know who's there right now. I know they added somebody, but I don't know their name. So we'll see. I have no clue. And I note it for a couple of reasons. One is just even though I objectively can look and say Scooby-Doo, excellent theme choice, that's a winner to have picked. So to me, there's not a lot to discuss about the theme because the theme is so clearly a good one. Sure. And so I always, though, have a very just sort of personal interest in knowing how the game is going to look, because how it plays is what I tend to be more concerned with in terms of what I'm interested in playing. But then the second thing is, of course, there's been a lot of discussion and I've always felt that it's it's overblown in the sense that I don't think it really disrupts things. But there's been a lot of discussion in the wake of Halloween and Ultraman, and we all know what's happened on the market with those. Uh, there's been a lot of disagreement we'll say with the way the software has gone and disagreement with the way the layout went on that game. And a lot of people were frustrated because they placed orders before they saw any of that stuff. And I know some people were like, I'm not going to fall into the same trap on Spooky's next game. My statement has always been when it's Scooby-Doo pinball, you guys are still going to buy out on this no matter how they do the reveal, uh, because that's just how pinheads and enough pinheads operate. I don't really think it actually moves them. Some people have felt that Spooky was going to be punished by how they handled Halloween, and I don't think that's true, especially now that Scooby-Doo is confirmed. But what are your thoughts? Does this sell out even if the game is a dog? What, Ro? You like my dog reference? I completely agree that whenever people said, I'm taking a stand here, I thought to myself, if it is Scooby-Doo, well, you'll take a stand but you'll sit back down really quick and get out your wallet um i think that this game sells out immediately i don't think there's any problem with that because of what they've already shared all checks the boxes everything checks the boxes everything original we got licensed assets we've got the voice actors we've got everything that they want they're teasing about they're being physical stuff in this game it will sell out day one and it won't even be close unless they increase the unit total double.
    39:20
    Honestly, double they still might sell out. But selling out day one, if they're doing similar numbers to Halloween, you know what? If they do similar numbers to Halloween and Ultraman together, I still think they sell out day one. I hope that they don't increase too much. But I think they sell out immediately. Then again, I don't know how worried they are about selling out because they came out with TNA and they haven't sold out of that and they don't seem too fazed by it. Yeah, and I think some people kind of latched on to what happened with TNA 2.0 as maybe evidence in their minds of – and I can see why you would think that – of, oh, okay, nope, this is like the Halloween effect. I'm like, well, TNA is such a different example because the license – there is no license. So it's not – everyone kind of knows you either are into TNA and what it offers you or you're not. And I think the thing with TNA was there already were 550 out there. There's no nostalgia tie to wanting you to get it. You have to just be really into the game. And then the price point they launched it at was too high. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was a number of factors going on there. The other thing I want to say before we move on to the next story, Dennis, is, listener, I believe that when you get Scooby-Doo as a license, that's a funky license. It's nostalgic. I don't see them phoning it in and being safe with this. I think that they're – I just got a feeling that there's going to be something different about this game. I don't know what, but just – I feel it in my plums. I'm going to disagree there. I think they – I think – of course – You think they learned their lesson, huh? Yeah. I think they're going to look back and they're going to go, you know what? All the complaints about Halloween and Ultraman aren't the art, not the call-outs, not the light show. It's like why did we do three upper play fields? Why are there this many scoops? Why are the rules – It was still code and animation though. And, of course, rules can be modified and evolved over time. And so I think in the case of Scooby-Doo, they're going to say, you know what? Let's do a traditional style layout, and we're going to sell it with the sculpts, and we're going to sell it with the mechs.
    41:38
    So that's my guess. I don't think they're going to push on innovation. I think they're going to push on, let's just try and make this as fun as we can and just make you feel the world of Scooby-Doo and not get all cute with trying to be the weird layout. Like, we're not the Gottlieb of the modern era. Let's just move back. And in fact, I wouldn't be shocked if this is a fan layout. Well, I mean, okay, that's fine.
    42:00
    I just think with that younger group, not the helm, I don't think that they've learned their lesson. And I think it may work this time. I think they're still swinging. Well, may work is a, I mean, it worked the first time. Okay, yes, you're right. I can criticize because I don't enjoy the layout. I can criticize that. And a lot of people have. And the market, on the second hand, speaks for itself. But they still – they have their non-refundable deposit model or however they've got it set up with the preorder. I don't remember the system. But they've got – they sell out. That's my – it's still sold out. You make a great point, yes. And so, yes, and I agree with you that it's going to sell out here as well. They either – yeah, and I could see it one of two ways. You can either – I know people that operate in one of two ways. One would be the, okay, we got blowback on this and this. Let's do some things different. Like if we're designing by committee still and we're not very good designers, let's copy something, similar layout that we know is very popular for us. Let's at least make the layout inoffensive. And then I know others that are like, screw you guys. Screw you guys. They double down. I'm going to make you like my weird layouts. And my argument, Dennis, is I don't think they're either one. I think they're in the middle where either they're just not aware of it or don't acknowledge it. I think they just go by the beat of their own drum.
    43:29
    I don't think that they would preemptively just double down just for, I just don't think that's the type of people they are. Nor do I think they're the type of crew leadership right now that would say, eh, we need to make a smart business decision here. Pull it back a little bit. But let's get a little – they are the Scooby-Doo clan. I think they just – they're in their own mystery band. I know that, but they also said that they loved Halloween. I mean, I don't think – love of a theme does not mean you're going to make a good layout. A hundred percent. It just doesn't. And let's bear – and again, we don't know the full story. At least I don't know the full story. But we have scenarios of when you have like Bo and Karen's helping you on rules, and then he's no longer involved, and he's publicly indicated that he warned them about a whole lot of stuff, and they ignored all of his advice. And you're like, why would you ignore someone who had worked on one of your very popular playing games?
    44:27
    Do you think Bowen would – do you think – to be fair, I'll play devil's advocate. Do you think Bowen Caron comes out, if that is a certified hit and everybody fucking loves it, do you think Bowen Caron comes out and says, you know what? I was wrong because I told them they were messing up this whole time. It's kind of convenient. Sure. That's why I said I don't know the full story. Yeah, I don't know how much I can take of that. Numbers don't lie, Zach. And we know broadly speaking, I know there are some people who love those games, like Greg. But Halloween and Ultraman, broadly speaking, are misses in the community. Agree.
    45:03
    Agree. And as you said, Dennis, numbers don't lie. They sold out. I don't think it matters. Honestly, I don't think – I'm totally on board with you. This is going to sell out whether they pull a page out of Halloween or they pull a page more out of Alice Cooper.
    45:21
    Like you said before, it doesn't matter. I think it sells out by – You said that was spooky for a long time now. But aside from TNA, I can't think of a single one of their games that really gets praised on the layout in particular. With Alice Cooper, a lot of it was code. You're right. I don't know what to – And they may not care. They may not care. I'm not trying to make them. I don't care. I don't care if they care or don't care. It doesn't affect me. I publicly said that spooky games require a little bit more maintenance at times. They're more finicky at times. They can be your problem children in a collection at times. So they have that, in my opinion, as a downside to a lot of their products. But for some reason, my ass still owns their games. And a lot of it is theming, immersion, et cetera. things that are important to me. So we'll see how it shakes out this week. More to come on that. I'm sure you're going to hear other podcasters talking about it with additional information as well. Well, congratulations to them on the reveal. Absolutely. Congratulations. And I know I'm going to get shit and everybody's going to say, well, it's because you sell spooky pinball machines. I will remind people. Are you a dealer for them now? Look, flipping out pinball, prior to the announcement of Scooby-Doo, It was not an official dealer, authorized dealer distributor for Spooky Pinball. And whether or not we will be for Scooby-Doo, we'll just have to wait and see. Well, they're just going to have to listen to my opinion on all this stuff then. I'll say this. Regardless if I'm a dealer or not, I'll be selling some Scooby-Doos, and we have a running list. So if you're interested, let me know. People are like, that makes no sense, Zach. Yeah, that doesn't. It makes zero sense. Yeah.
    47:10
    Hey, Dennis, I was listening to the Super Awesome Pinball Show a couple weeks ago, right after our last episode. They interviewed George Gomez. But prior to that, they were talking about some interesting stuff, including the possibility of a Prince pinball machine, formerly known as the artist, formerly known as Prince. That's a good license. Yeah. That works. Franchi was making the pitch, doing some artwork mock-ups to pitch, and he said this is while he was at American Pinball. And as a result, Prince License will never happen because they wanted $1.5 million for the assets and license to use in a pinball machine of Prince, and AP wasn't able to secure that. They came with an offer, and it was laughable to the point of no negotiation there. yeah no 1.5 million yeah i don't know if i don't know if even stern would do it i don't know if they would either i mean beatles the rumor you know the cat yeah that was the kamikaze rumor was beatles was a million and they did a whole special structure you know with limiting the entire run and then that game didn't sell out right away it took quite a while so i yeah i i guess yeah i would agree with franchi then uh prince is a no-go here's the thing that gets me though and i don't know if i haven't done enough research to to know if prince would be a slap in the face home run we sell this game out regardless because of the license i know it's a big license i know i like that music but if we do the math and and for some math is hard but 1.5 million how many games does stern make let's guess you know we know they do a thousand le's Let's say they do $2,000 of each pro and premium at $5,000. Let's just roughly say that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, $5,000 sounds – I don't think that's unrealistic for the biggest manufacturer in the game. Yeah. So if we take $1.5 million divided by $5,000 just to see per unit how much this license would cost this product, we are at $300. now for this to be discussed in a way that 1.5 million this is this is crazy i don't think that's that much of a reach you can't tell me that with all these price increases over the last two years that if prince really was a back to the future or something like that 300 per machine is really that big of an issue?
    49:51
    Surely it's more than the money because for me, I know that there's probably 50 licenses out there that if the manufacturer came to me and said, hey, if you want one of these 50, we'll be happy to make it, but we've got to increase the price by $300. I'd say, fuck it, increase the price by $1,000 because I want that theme and a pinball machine. $300 is nothing.
    50:12
    No, I mean, that's the question to me would be, are you planning to put this in Like, are we doing a special Beatles only, like keeping it limited style thing to try and drum up interest? Or I'm assuming American, and this is, of course, total assumption, American Panama was planning to just put it into the line like they do anything else, you know, do a standard run.
    50:34
    And all of a sudden, are you having to reprice everything? You see, that's, let's say you're selling the game and it's like the game's the same price as Hot Wheels and Oktoberfest. And like, that's what you wanted. You went in wanting that. And now you're like, all right, well, I have to either raise the price $300 or I have to shed $300 out of the bill of materials. Not to mention you're saying we're using your number of 5,000 pins, which in the case of American Pinball, I don't know if they're going to do it with 5,000 pins.
    51:01
    Let's say they only sold 1,000 of them or thought they could only sell 1,000 of them. That's 1,500 more dollars. Okay. And for a lot of non-dealer people that buy everything they love, that's a lot of money to commit.
    51:16
    I think it's tough to make the argument with Prince because it is one of those themes that's like it could go either way. Well, that's the thing. I don't – I hate to say this because I know Prince fans, but Prince is not the Beatles, and I just don't think you – We've got to think about every other license out there that isn't going to be ridiculous like this. It's like, why would we do all this mental gymnastics math stuff that you're making us do, Zach, when we could probably just go ahead and secure another almost equally, if not equally popular? Oh, yeah, and moving beyond music pins. This is something else. I agree. Like Scooby-Doo didn't cost $1.5 million, and Scooby-Doo is a smarter move than Prince. Yes, 100%. Boom. In agreement with all of it. But what I'm saying is I'm using Prince and these numbers just as an example to say what you're saying in that if we know Beatles is a million dollars, the most expensive pinball license ever attained. All right. And we know that Prince was 1.5 million, which was like, that's ridiculous.
    52:27
    To your point, there's got to be so many damn licenses out there that even at a million dollars, holy shit, sign up. Why are we wasting our time with some of the licenses that are coming out? That's my point. This is absurd. At minimum, if Beatles is a million dollars, there's got to be so much that we can get with a similar amount of money. You can't tell me that back to the future, if it is just a financial thing, my point is I think it's more than that. I think it's more IP limitations that are more constrictive than finances here. because back to the future, let's say it's $2 million. Who gives a shit?
    53:13
    That's a $2 million, sign me up. Plus, on the Super Awesome Pinball Show, they were talking about it being like, you know, when you get into a contractual agreement it like 7 to 9 of the wholesale cost There an upfront cost required but this million used as an example is not the upfront cost It just that the minimum you're going to be paying if you sign up for it. Otherwise, it's just a percentage of the thing, which made it sound even more like a no-brainer for some of these huge licenses. I'm not sure that was how that was explained. That's how I understood it. I interpreted it as, let's use the $1.5 million. So the $1.5 million, I took it like how it works is like a book advance. So you're paying, in this case, you're advancing the license holder, the $1.5 million. You make the games, and then once they have earned off of what the percentage would be, the $1.5 million, if you continue to make more, they get the percentage per unit. Yes, yes. I see it that way as well. But I didn't think it's $1.5 million up front. I thought it was percentage up to fulfillment. I don't remember the segment well enough to remember how they handle doing the initial payments. But anything after that met, and if it's a percentage, whoop-de-fucking-do. Whoop-de-do. Yeah, no, I don't think that's the barrier. I don't believe that was presented as the barrier. They're just kind of explaining why the license holder, like why Stern renewing ACDC five different times wasn't a big deal. Because they probably just said, yeah, we're just going to keep getting the percentage. Yeah. So I don't know. It made me think hearing those guys talk about it, especially Franchi, because he was speaking from the experience of it. So it seems even more like a no-brainer for these companies to swing for the fences with licenses instead of some of the titles we've been seeing over the last five years. In some instance – I don't know. I don't know the answer because I think it just – it depends on what boat – which of the pinball manufacturing boats we're floating on, right? So I think Stern's license picks have all made sense regardless of whatever they're spending on them. I don't understand the – granted, a lot of these are rumored. Some of the rumored JJP licenses and some of the stuff we've seen come out seem logical, and some of them seem odd to me. And then American Pinball, which constantly seems almost – I don't want to use the word afraid, but I will – afraid to commit long-term to licenses, and they keep playing the original theme game.
    55:54
    But then when we have Pinball Brothers, it's rocking out Alien and Queen. Those are big licenses. I mean, yeah, some of these, it just, and again, I don't think those necessarily cost too much. I just don't think there's any excuse for American pinball at this point. When Pinball Brothers is pulling what they are, when Spooky Pinball is doing what they are, I just don't think, I think it is a decision at this point. I don't think they can hide behind it's too expensive because that's bullshit. I think it's bullshit. They're choosing not to pick big licensing, in my opinion. Well, they clearly are choosing not to. I just don't know what the motivation behind it is. When you hear the interviews, and thinking back to some of the David Fix interviews, it seemed to me that it was his opinion that there is a big market for original pinball. I disagree with him. I don't think there is a big market for original themes. I agree. And as I'm thinking about it, Iron Maiden.
    56:52
    What? Rush. What? I'm sorry. They knew they were going to sell every Canadian with a Rush theme, so that was smart. I don't think so. It was smart. But there are 100 licenses better. Why are we messing with Rush? Why are we messing with Iron Maiden? Because it was easy to get. It was easy to do. I think music pins – I think Stern turns to music pins because I think they're easy. I think that it's like, oh, well, you don't have to come up with a story. It's easy on the programmers. We don't have to come up with a story or anything. Just throw in – it's all about rules. Don't trigger Ray Day. Oh, he wants to do rules that are just rules. You don't have to tell a story in a music pin. In a world of rules and stories. Well, it saves you on the writer. That's like the writer has to do that or something. I don't know who gets stuck doing the writing. Maybe they all hate it. And they're like, I don't know. Maybe only Dwight likes that. Be like, I want to craft a world, a real world under glass through the storytelling. And everyone else is like, I want to figure out how to put in a 4X bonus. And with songs, we can just do it. Just do it. Airport mode? And some people, I think, maybe prefer it that way. Because then, you know, when you do, like, shows and movies and stuff, you do get people whining, like, it's out of order. Why are we playing Guardians? And everything's like, we're not going through the sequence of the movie. We're playing different, you know, we're in nowhere when we shouldn't be at nowhere yet in the story. It's like, well, because it's a pinball game. That's right. You don't want it linear.
    58:19
    The super awesome pinball show hosts also interviewed George Gomez in a two-parter. I heard the first part. I have not yet listened to the second part. I finished the second yesterday. Okay. So you can fill us in if there's anything additional here. But they talked about the licensor of James Bond. George Gomez said they actually were the ones that requested the 60th anniversary old school style of machine. I found that interesting. They were the ones that wanted to do such a thing. How about that? They wanted an old school thing. a lot of these licensors, that's quite what they know pinball as still. So I guess they're like, yeah, you can do what you want with your video game up to date kind of thing. But can we just have an old pinball machine? And I guess it makes sense to the generation of when James Bond came out, the focus of using Sean Connery as the James Bond back in the – so I get it. Kind of. That's where it's like – but we've seen in the mock-up image that was leaked by the 007 store that the 60th anniversary has all the – it's the one that's got all the Bonds in it. So it would have made more sense for, in my mind, for Gomez's version to be the one that represented all the movies and then Elwynn's version to just have done Connery. I get that. I don't know. We're going to see it mid-December is what I'm hearing. Also, there's three sets of sounds on Elwin's 60th anniversary. I guess it's like an old tech board or like a dip switch on some of the older games. Oh, are they doing like how chimes were with three chimes? Yeah, I don't. Three sets of sounds. I think you can change it to where it's like early 80s sounds or more contemporary sounds. Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. George Gomez said about Keith Elwin's 60th anniversary upcoming James Bond special edition game. He has never seen, quote, swoopy figure eight thing, end quote, that returns it back to the flipper for a shot continuation.
    60:20
    I don't even know what that means, but it sounds cool. Swoopy figure eight thing that returns it back to the flipper. It's the swoopy part that's so confusing. Is he talking about like a fathom in lane?
    60:31
    You know, when I hear swoopy figure eight thing, I almost think of like how Mark Ritchie and his crossover ramps. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But instead, obviously, this is a single level, so maybe it comes in, you know, shoot a left shot, and then it loops, and there's a ball guide that will feed it around, and then it pops out. Or maybe like a single-level Deadpool katana shot where it kind of feeds from one part of the other. And there would be gaps in it so that it has guides, but there are breaks, so the ball actually will continue on its trajectory because of physics, and then it will feed back around. And so you'll shoot in in the left-hand entrance, and it will come out of the right-hand side of the figure eight, but back to the left. Back to the left flipper. I visually saw that when you explained it. Yeah. That's the swoopy figure eight thing. We've decided that. The Creasel 8. Okay. Maybe. He said there's in-line targets for this upcoming game release. There's crossover features for the Insider Connected between George Gomez's Cornerstone game and the Keith L. Wynn's 60th Anniversary Limited game. So that's interesting. George Gomez also said in the interview that it was cost prohibitive to get Goldfinger and Thunderball theme songs. So he was bummed about that. Well, they just need to add $300 more to the machine, Zach. That's what I'm saying. That song was probably only $50 extra machine. Did they want $1.5 million? I don't think so. Goldfinger.
    62:00
    Just have me sing it. I'll do it for Tin Machine. He's a man. Midas touch. A spider's touch. I just, maybe we need to go to a la carte pinball more. Some of us collectors are okay with paying the extra.
    62:23
    When you said a la carte, I thought you were going to say Olive Garden pinball. I thought, there you go, American pinball starts small. Do Olive Garden. Breadsticks and salad. Yeah, breadstick multi-ball.
    62:36
    That'd be yummy. When you're here, you're family wizard mode. Why is it that Olive Garden has become like the McDonald's of sit-down restaurants? No, it's basically Applebee's and Chili's now. I know. And you know what? Growing up in the lower class, maybe hoping to be middle class, Olive Garden was a big deal for my family. And you know what? I still love Olive Garden. My wife turns her nose up at it, and she's like, God, no, we're not going there. But I love the Olive Garden, especially with the breadsticks, and you get the little Alfredo dipping sauce. Oh, my gosh. Unbelievable. It's good shit. Well, years ago, I went one time with a friend of mine, and he had never – I don't think he'd ever been to an Olive Garden. And he ordered their lasagna, and they brought it out, and he just looks at it, and the waitress comes back, and she's like, oh, something's wrong. And he goes, no, no, it's fine. It just – I was surprised at how small it was. She brought him out a bigger piece. Well, like – Come on, man. I'd be okay if they even actually unpackaged it on my plate because it's a microwave product. It was just funny because he had been a waiter for years. And so after he ordered it, before it came out, he had said, I don't know how they make money at these price points.
    63:59
    And then he gets his baby sliced lasagna size. And I'm like, that's how. Enjoy your ravioli-sized lasagna.
    64:06
    Lasagna. I'm going to complain about it. There's your dish. a dish from a plastic bag a bread sauce bag extra parmesan cheese we will shred I go on a tour of Italy and I love it I just love it tastes even better heated back up again the next day Give it to me all day long. I am not afraid to admit I love Olive Garden. Garden Fresh Salad. Drizzled with our signature Italian dressing. Or four homemade soups to choose from.
    64:53
    Plus, fresh out of the oven breadsticks. Our famous never-ending first course is so good, you might just forget you still have more to look forward to. Enjoy never-ending super salad and breadsticks. On us before every meal. Only at Olive Garden. We're all family here. Okay, what else do we got in this interview? They talked about the original Bond on a Wand jetpack. It was originally conceptualized flying around the playfield and Bonds being angled at different times. It was very much, George said, more dynamic in its presentation than what it ended up being. And he said the problem was that from an engineering standpoint, getting him to move around the play field, being that it was dynamic, was fine. But it didn't have the structure to be able to hold a ball bearing. So they couldn't do that. Yeah, that makes sense. It reminds me of, because when that was described, it made me think of like the Premium LE Ghostbuster Slimer mech. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which moved around quite a bit, but all it was holding up was that little rubber Slimer. It didn't have to sustain a ball. It made me think about the prototype attack from Mars, how Brian Eddy originally wanted the UFO to come out over the play field on a beam or on a wand, a steel pole or something. And it was supposed to come out and move around, but instead it was just more static in its production model. That's what it made me think about.
    66:27
    I don't know. Well, I haven't played the premium here at the Cincinnati yet. I need to get some time on it before we close down today. Speaking of Stern Pinball, I forgot which podcast or stream I heard this on, but George Gomez was talking about likely only being two Cornerstone releases in 2023. It might have been Saps. Okay, it may have been. But he talked about due-to-back orders and such that we'll probably see a year like 2022 with only two Cornerstone releases. And you and I discussed that, and we kind of posited the idea that maybe there was only going to be two next year. I think it's the right decision until they're caught up on the backlog. Yeah, and especially if they want to sneak in another little special version like they're doing this year of the 60th anniversary of Elwynn's, of Bond. I get that then. Two cornerstones makes sense. I know it makes you sad because you like talking about new pinball. I do like new pinball, damn it. There was an update as well.
    67:30
    Someone from Stern reached out to me and wanted to clarify that they said, hey, I listened to your podcast, heard about you guys discussing the home editions of Jurassic Park being last call, and Star Wars and Star Wars comic home editions being last call. You guys kind of speculating, is this it for the home edition models, or are we gearing up for another title? They said they wanted to confirm with us that they have no plans for the Home Edition to go away. The line, though. Yes.
    68:01
    Jurassic Park and Star Wars are going away. Correct. That is last call. That's going to be done. They could always, like we talked about before, hell, a year from now, maybe they want to re-up that license. Sure, call them. Yeah, but they said that that line is not dead. In fact, they do have plans to have another release of the Home Edition. So there's your update from Stern Pinball themselves.
    68:27
    No big production updates or changes this week. We're still going to be seeing Bond LEs probably start rolling out in the next week or two. And alongside the rest of those early run pros, we're going to see some Jurassic Park Home Editions go on the line here soon, if not already. Gearing up to the end of that run. And then throughout the month, you're going to see L.A.'s of Bonds. Beginning of next month, January, we're going to see premiums on the line as well as the 60th anniversary on the line. And then at the end of the month to beginning of February, you're going to see more James Bond pros. So a lot of ma'am and a ma'am ma'ams are coming. I'm looking forward to the L.A. Which is good because that's the only song in the game.
    69:11
    You know, I've heard a lot of it this weekend. I unboxed the Showroom Pro for flipping out pinball, and my first takes were that it is a fast bastard of a game. It is a very, very fast, bouncy game. I don't know if it's a great thing. I don't know if it's a horrible thing. It's just I'm stating that it is a fast game. Yeah, I still haven't. We actually got two on location. I wasn't able to get out yet and play either of them, But we had a couple of Bond pros recently arrive. And the feedback – and actually, the only thing I would note from the second part of the Gomez interview is he spoke more about the challenges they had with the Queen's death, for example. He kind of went on to explain, no, they really were taken by surprise. They'd shipped the games over, and then it was very last minute that the licensor said, we want you, Stern, to not have this at our UK show because of the Queen's death. And, you know, because George wanted to push back on on some people who were saying like, no, that's it's it's a smokescreen. They're having other issues, though. I note that aspect of the interview in regards to this production update, because the one thing, though, is regardless of and I have no reason that I would doubt George's statement that, yes, that is exactly why they had that game pulled from that show. The code is still so basic compared to where they've been lately. That's it's a big complaint I'm hearing from a lot of people. So you're like, this game should have been delayed a lot more, regardless of the queen. Like, why is this out right now when I've heard all sorts of rumors, like it's the licensors, it's not approving. It's not the programmers at Stern that are behind. It's the licensor greenlighting everything. It's just super tedious. But regardless, it's like, I mean, when you hear of our latest triple drain, when they're joking about, yeah, you have the Dr. No pro, and then you can't even choose Dr. No in the game. He's not selectable yet. That's ironic. And it's like, I just, this is, I still think this goes down. I don't think it goes down as a bad game for Stern, but it goes down as probably their worst reveal in a really long time. And that may have been all out of their control, but it still reflects on them. I would agree on that, and I would jump on the back of that and say that you're right. The code is, the code is, it is early. You're so right. It's so early that I'm like, I'm not a start ship because there's not much in it to start. Um, it's, it's super fast, but yeah, the code's just, just not there. It's just not there. Uh, and I can tell on the bright side here, this is going to be a Batman 66 type of game. There are a shitload of things that they're going to code to do. This is going to have a slow burn. I think the trajectory of this is going to be very positive because it is going to be a, a full, full journey of a game, in my opinion. Because people are already saying they're not fast ball times. They're in the moderate ball time range, as was Batman 66. And with what they have laid out on the play field and laid out in the animations that they do provide, you can tell this is going to be a full, full, long saga of a game, I think. Yeah, I wouldn't be concerned about the code eventually getting there. We're a long time away from the Wheel of Fortune days. I was just going to say, there are plenty of examples, more towards the latter period of the DMD era, where a lot of games were really turning out with pretty basic early code, but they all got there. It's just there's so many things to do on the play field, insert-wise. Like, if every mode, as they've presented as such, because there's like one quote-unquote mode of a henchman, one mode coded or two modes coded of one of the specters, one mode or two modes of the weapon, but they're all like modes. So just based on that principle, there's going to be like 30 modes in this game. That's a lot of modes. That's a lot of modes, but it's fun to shoot. It's a damn fun shooter. But, yeah, I'll have to give more time on the premium LA because I know it's going to slow the ball down quite a bit. and based on my experience on the pro so far i may welcome that that left that left shot of the opto spinner to the ramp and the flow around that's the that's the shot of that layout there it's like stranger things but better it's like that left shot it's it's really really good gomez likes that left orbit to something else, whether it's a saucer or whether it's another ramp. That's the shot of the game there. What else do we want to talk about? We can talk about awards season. There's some updates as we've been continually keeping you listeners updated on the awards season of the year for pinball. We know the Twippy Awards. We're trying to find a co-host to co-host with Emoto. They asked Christian Line, per the Saps podcast, and Christian Line declined as well. So a running list of people declining to co-host this show. And they did find one. Todd Tuckey is going to be co-hosting with Emoto at TPF. So we've got to do it. We're ready to go now for the Twippies. And then regarding the Pinball Industry Awards, we're doing another – we've got a meeting coming up. So more information to come on that. But I'm getting really excited about that. I'm getting excited. Well, you do like celebrating pinball. I like celebrating pinball, and I like making moves forward. I like adding.
    74:58
    When we get longer, bigger projects like this every year, I don't like to be in a rut. I think I speak for the PIA group when we're always every year looking to advance, whether that advancement is something dynamic or something more objectively clean. our goal is to celebrate pinball cleaner bigger and better each and every year and uh some of the things that we're looking to implement this year i think uh are very exciting to me and are very fresh and i'm reinvigorated as to the direction that we're trying to go to celebrate those who help create pinball damn that was like a political podium statement there yeah you said clean so much I thought you were going to announce that Windex was sponsoring this year. I'm just trying not to downplay production because, goddammit, I love production. And I think everything awards should be highly produced or should be done so in a way that includes a lot of people. So I'm trying to say clean because, you know, it should be nice. We're giving awards away. Crystals. We're giving crystals away, Dennis. And the best way to clean those crystals is with Windex cleaning products. No, cut all that part out until Winix gives us our check. That's right. Just don't use it on your Invisiglass. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, don't do that. Oh, I wonder if multimorphic P3 games have Invisiglass. They don't come standard, do they?
    76:36
    I don't think, you know, I'm not going to say because I don't want to get corrected. I don't know if they do or not. I don't know. What I do know. Listen, I'm not going to look it up right now. What I do know is that the P3 system now has another dedicated game. This time, for the first time, dedicated – is it a console? It's not a console. Module. Module, thank you. Another module, new module by first-time third-party company or third-party creator. The game is called Drained and is by Nick Baldrige, announced I think a week or two ago. it's based on a vampire themed kind of thing yep vampires it's more single level approach to a module very EM actually gobble hole incorporated true gobble hole it's a symmetrical module symmetry was very common symmetry is not my strong suit lots of stand up targets some drop targets got an actual knocker, physical knocker physical bell that rings Oh that's badass, I like that Again, lots of things from the EM era I think that the Buffalo Pinball crew did a live reveal I haven't been able to watch it yet a live reveal of gameplay, right? Yes, they did Any thoughts, additions to this release? I know that you're in connection with Nick Baldrige here and there and he is a sweet, nice fella He's reached out and I've discussed and talked with him as well. I love that he took this project on. He is a very project-driven person. I mean, this is not his first P3 game. He's done several others, and he's also done other homebrews. Like his Multi Bingo, I think, is probably the homebrew a lot of people first associated with him.
    78:30
    You know, it's interesting. This is the first time we've seen that, as you noted, a third-party module. So I'm curious about how that was going to go. I mean, from the way it seems, it's truly third party. Like he set up a company. He's got to handle the product. Like P3 signed off on this is all valid to work with our system and everything. And they're involved when you want to get the software to be able to run it. But you do the order through his site, Nick's site, to actually purchase the module, which I believe are $3,500 for the module. Which Tony, my co-host with Eclectic Gamers Podcast, had looked and said that's the same price as the Weird Al module. Oh. That makes me – okay, all right. I have an opinion on that. Okay.
    79:16
    There's some cool stuff that Nick is doing. I just like the concept alone of third party is ballsy enough to make a module for this platform. I think that is a move in the right direction. I'm curious if it will inspire other people to do modules. Like if they were on the fence about how practical is it and stuff, and Nick – I'm not going to volunteer. Nick is going to explain to everyone. Like here's how he wants to walk everyone through it. But he's very supportive of the platform. So it doesn't surprise me that regardless of intention, that it will serve as a motivating factor for a lot of people that maybe were thinking that this could be a good option because it saves them a whole lot of – Like you're not having to build the entire pinball machine yourself, yourself and such. So I think it could be, I think it could go both ways It could be motivating uh to get into it If this this thing does sell It could be demotivating Is that even a word demotivating Yeah sure I remember the old demotivational posters. My favorite one was the one with the eagle soaring in the mountains. And you love eagles, so I'm bringing it up. And it was titled Leadership. And then beneath it, it said, leaders are like eagles. We don't have either of them here.
    80:30
    That's a harsh one. All of them were harsh. That's why they were called demotivational. Poor Eagly. People could be demotivated to try their own module out if, in fact, it falls flat on its face sales-wise. But how would they know? I mean, unless Nick goes public with the numbers, they won't necessarily know, will they? I think we know just loosely if a game does well or not. I mean, I don't know how many people own rocks for P3, for example. I have no context or sense of it. Okay, well. All right, here's my thought on Drained.
    81:05
    That was nice. There are things I like about it. Maybe this is so highbrow that I'm not supposed to understand it.
    81:15
    Maybe. You don't understand vampires? I don't know what the fuck is going on. I don't get this. None of it makes sense. And I always feel like I'm the ass of a joke. when I come in and people are using memes that I don't understand and I'm behind because I'm old. What the fuck is this game? I don't know. It's Orbit and a Scoop. I don't know what this game is, and I don't think it looks fun, and I don't know why time was spent making it. On nights when Dad works late, we'll treat ourselves a bit. At Olive Garden. Ooh, breadsticks. It's a chance for us to catch up. So, is Donna still in the picture? maybe enjoy Olive Garden's new chicken crostata grilled marinated chicken breast with our tomato alfredo sauce or new steak crostata grilled steak medallions with a four cheese sauce both with crispy asiago cheese crostatas and unlimited salad and breadsticks so is this uh serious yeah this is seriously good I feel like I'm just not understanding something so this could be on me I just fucking don't get it that's my take
    82:28
    So email me, enlighten me. I respect the hell out of Nick. I respect this process and decision to go in this direction to do something as a third party. I love that Multimorphic has a group of people that are very supportive. But I don't get this product. I don't get this product at $500. I just don't get this product.
    82:55
    That's my take. It's a loop. It's a fucking loop. At Olive Garden, sauce is the soul. It turns lasagna into a classico. It's what takes you on a tour of Italy and chicken and shrimp carbonara to the next level. Our amazing sauces make from scratch every day. And they all pair perfectly with our never-ending first course that's always on us. Olive Garden, we're all family here. oh so you do you not get the game or you don't get the module i don't get the design i don't know well nick's uh design philosophy is very i i'm gonna say i almost want to say avant-garde but obviously this is a throwback to it to an older style but but all of nick's games uh and this is is my take on it is he has a like he has a game philosophy or a type of game that he really likes that i do not think is mainstream okay would be how i would describe it so like Case in point. So the very first game – this was not publicly available, but one that he developed for himself. The first one I was aware of that he worked on for the P3 was based off of the point-and-click adventure Quest for Glory. And because he based it on that game, if I recall, the base default settings of it are you got one ball, and you could save your progress just like the game. But if you drained the ball and you hadn't saved, you'd have to start over. And the only – That's a cool concept. And the only real way to – yeah, no, it's an interesting idea. But you see, it's pretty out there, though, compared to normal. And maybe that's where this is relying. Pretty out there. In the rules. And so – and then he did Ranger in the Ruins, which is roguelike, which again is a video game concept that we don't really see in pinball. And then he had the – what, Silver Falls, which to me – I always refer to it as like The Sims. It's like the home-building genre, again, a video game-inspired thing. this one in a lot of ways to me made the most sense compared to traditional pinball because it's pulling from how you would play em like wood rail em games obviously it's using p3 screen for you to but i mean i i i didn't i didn't watch the live stream yet um yeah because i wasn't able to watch when it was live but but based off of what i understand you know they have these these targets for uh indicating for you to slay a vampire you hit those targets and then that is what activates the vampire battle mode and then you just have to complete some indicated shots to do that and then once you've done that you shoot for the gobble hole and that's what kills the vampire so conceptually that all you know makes sense to me i'm i you know i know there's supposed to be like rewards that you get by shooting the back parts of the module and stuff like obviously the module has those sleigh and vampire stuff but they've got he's got items incorporated which again kind of a video game concept there where you would often gather up items in order to accomplish I'm wondering maybe – there were some items incorporated in Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. I don't know if he's implemented them the same way, but we've seen a little bit of like – that's all like – so he's blending video game and sort of Woodrail EM together, I think. Okay, and maybe the genius lies in the rules and the code because I'm just reacting based on visually what I've seen in the art and the layout, and that I don't understand. But then again, look at TNA.
    86:11
    TNA is a bad example because he did the Denise Lock, which is original. I can't even use that. I don't know. The design makes any regular EM look like a fucking Wizard of Oz. At Olive Garden, nobody loves Alfredo quite like we do. We make it from scratch so you can enjoy it poured, twirled, or dipped. With our one-of-a-kind Alfredo, the possibilities are endless. like there's nothing going on in this game now in terms of like kinetic satisfaction if you want that phrase my guess is the way this module is structured is it's designed to allow you to actually sweep and hit targets like sweepable targets which some people like that's why the that's cool that's the big selling point of of uh quicksilver that i always hear is the sweepable you know having like a sweepable drop bank and stuff so he's laid it out as i understand it so that you have this sort of sweepable symmetrical design. So that's where I think he's thinking the kinetic satisfaction is supposed to come from, plus the immersion through having an actual old-timey bell, an actual old-timey knocker. The knocker is not just firing on like replay. It actually is used in the game. So that's what I think it's going for. Obviously, the price point is very high when you consider that it's tied with the most expensive module from the first-party lineup. Does he sell more than 10 units? I don't know. Okay. I don't see how. I mean, I don't. There are a lot of people that are in on P3 now because they bought Weird Al's. And my theory, I shared this on Eclectic Gamers, is that whether or not they're skeptical of the gameplay, like they're not sure that they'll like it or not, I do think there will be a quantity of P3 people that will buy this game either just to support P3 stuff in general or because they want to feel like they have more and more value in the system? Because the system is pricey. So, you know, if there aren't a lot of games for your – Yeah, well, if you have a game console and it doesn't have a lot of games out, you might feel like you need to buy all of the games in order to feel like you get your full value out of the product. Yeah, and there's nothing to say that Multimorphic doesn't come out with an additional game add-on that utilizes this module.
    88:28
    You know, that's curious. I wonder how that, I mean, I guess another, that's interesting. You know, I never thought, like, could they, I'm sure they could talk to Nick. I wonder what the rules are, I guess, is the thing. I guess as long as you sell the module, anyone's allowed, you know, as long as Nick sells the module to someone, I think anyone could develop their own software. Oh, that is interesting. Yeah, I wonder how that works. Another third party makes another game using this layout, or, this would be really interesting, if there was a first party game that Multimorphic put out that uses a third-party module. I don't know if they would ever go that route. But the creativity on all the options that can happen is, I think, pretty interesting. Or do you think that a third-party making it for this third-party module would then have to pay royalties to every module? That's interesting. You know, and that's where I have no idea. My initial guess would be no. My initial guess is because anyone who wants that third-party game, they've got to buy Nick's module. Yeah, yeah. So he's going to make money on the modules. Yeah.
    89:27
    What were you going to say about the art? I thought it's interesting style. I really saw it in the trailer. I did see people online. That's where I've seen the most criticism actually was of the art. I actually think it's kind of cool looking. Okay. I like it because it looks like – and I'm just a fan of like ink traced – I like pointillism. But ink stroke style art as well. In fact, I cannot remember the name right now, but I'd mentioned my enjoyment of pointillism years ago, and Christopher Franchi actually sent me a message, and he linked me an artist that does pinstroke-style art. He did a whole lot of – a lot of political cartoons and stuff, but really cool style. This reminds me of that. I'm into that weird gray-scale-style art. I remember one time for – actually for the Pinball Industry Awards, I sent in my photo, and it was in black and white. And George Fisher was like, no more black and white photos from people, guys. I'm like, oh, but it's artsy. It's artsy. He didn't agree. That's how I see the world, shades of gray. Yeah, the artwork to me, it didn't like – Well, the colors don't pop because there's not very much color. The game wasn't – And you want the colors to pop. The art wasn't humblable to me. But then again, like for me, the art is the least of my concern when it comes to this. But I will give you guys an update once I get some time on watching the gameplay video. And I may be a believer. Hell, this might be something that makes me want to buy the entire damn platform. Who knows? I doubt it.
    90:59
    Chicago Gaming is in the news because they are trickling out more Cactus Canyon LEs. Trickle, trickle, trickle. And I only know that because I've received mine. But Ryan White from CGC was coming down to the Cincinnati show, and he was like, hey, I can bring one of our proto-Ellies that have been making the rounds at different shows. He said, or I may be able to squeeze you out an Ellie if you're willing to unbox it for the show. And I said, you know what? Yeah, sure. And I'll keep that one. So I'll take the plays. And I thought, he's there. So if anything's not right out of the box, he can fix it. So, yeah. So they are trickling out. They're slow, though. I think you're going to start seeing that ramp up in the next two weeks. Two weeks. Two weeks we're going to start seeing it. But the bulk of them went to Planetary Pinball because they are the rights holders. Yes. So I think they probably, if I had to guess, they've probably only shipped or produced 25.
    91:59
    Oh, okay. Yeah, so not many. I think probably the majority of those went to Planetary customers. So, yeah. And also from Chicago Gaming, I found this very interesting. TPN's very own Pinball Party podcast with Jason had on guest Cale Hernandez, who made a very strong, just a matter-of-fact statement that perked my ears. He said that the next game coming from Chicago Gaming, the next remake, is going to be Twilight Zone. and they even jason stoppin was like are you like you're good with me running with that and he said yeah yeah i'm fine with it so it sounded kind of legit maybe maybe i'm looking too much into it yeah i i mean i can see where people would want it to be twilight zone yeah we know kale hernandez once worked with marco specialties so probably has some good resources behind the scenes in the industry.
    93:01
    Twilight Zone would make a shitload of money for people because it is a classic, iconic pinball machine, a top ten of all time. When you think of pinball, what are the most iconic machines you think of? It's in there.
    93:15
    It's a wide body, though. Yeah. But if anybody's going to make wide body cabinets, certainly Churchill cabinets, I don't know what to think about this one. I'd say it's possible. My non-Marco-based rumors do not indicate anything on the front of remakes after CCR. So I don't.
    93:39
    I could maybe see them saying, you know, if we were to ever go back and do another remake, it would be Twilight Zone. I could see maybe that. I don't think that another remake is a priority for the company, though, at this stage.
    93:50
    I think Rod Serling would be hard to get. Yeah, well, they can just remaster the WPC sounds. I think that Gold Earring would be hard to secure. No. Or not hard to secure. Oh, come on. They're like a one-hit wonder. That's the one song. Yeah, but they have leverage because they know the only way to remake this game is to have the rights to them. They got them kind of held over there. Their hands are tied. They have to have it. I don't know. Rod Serling, I don't know. But Twilight Zone would make a shitload of money. And on the secondary market, Twilight Zones are like at $10,000 now anyway. so that makes sense having a full-blown topper on twilight zone which never officially had a topper from bally mill bally williams come on i'd probably be a buyer in the same vein i'm looking for an adams family not to play but just to collect because there's something wrong with my brain yep it's called hoarding that's what my wife says you should see my office it is bad it's real bad You know what? We are going long this episode. A lot of juice, a lot of nuggets. Man, this is a packed episode. Episode 118, y'all. Welcome. And because the folks over at Spooky Pinball had the most low-key reveal of all times of a pinball machine of such grand IP proportions, I'm going to attempt the following, Dennis, for pinball market trends. I'm going to attempt to spooky pinballize it. I present to you the low-key PIMP! pinball market trends.
    95:36
    Trending up this week, ladies and gentlemen, is spooky pinball. We've got to give it to them. They came in. They dropped their big mic on the table. They presented us with one of the greatest intellectual properties and themes to enter the industry of pinball. They did so with a whole-home attitude. in a small convention setting, as if it didn't really matter. They just wanted to be here to support other pinball people. They're confident with what they're producing, so they didn't have to jazz up their reveal teaser at all.
    96:09
    That painstakingly drives a stake into my heart, similar to that of the geometry and concept design of Drained by Nick Baldrige. This is fitting there, isn't it? But I think it kind of worked. Those son of a bitches. I like Razzle Dazzle. They brought none of it. And just gave you what you wanted to hear. And teased you with what you want to see in the future. And they may pay off.
    96:36
    Turning down this week, Dennis. It's low key. It is what it is. It's just a matter of fact. And the fact is, the last couple weeks here on podcasts, it's become very apparent to me that pinball is hard, sure. but math is hard.
    96:53
    Wow. Math is just, math is tough. And advanced levels of math, I get. Those are rather difficult. I heard a podcast talking about how far they got in math and stuff. I started getting tripped up at calculus. Calculus 1 in college. That was my nut kicker. But prior to that, basic equations and algebra, Like Gene Simmons looked it up. When it comes to podcasters, though, math. We got to go back to the, shit, guys, second grade here? On a recent episode of Canada's Pinball Podcast, Facebook live stream, as well as the podcast, I've heard on five occasions now him screaming, him proclaiming, him setting the narrative that at the Twippies last year, there's no competition to win for best podcaster because he easily gets three times the amount of votes, whether they're paid for or not, than any other podcaster in the pinball industry.
    97:55
    If that's true, number one, it's fucking sad. But number two, if true, it is what it is. Numbers don't lie. I'm another podcaster, so I may not like it if he had three times the votes or popularity, but it is what it is. I'd have to suck up my bottom lip and deal with it. I'm a man. I'm 40. Not 40 yet. It's a reference to an old sports thing. Follow me here, people. The problem is, Kaneda, is that numbers don't lie. Second grade math is not hard. The numbers are on the Twibby's website. Last year, you received 30% of the vote, which was the majority of the winner. The winner got 30%. You got 30%. No one's refuting that. Nicely done. Second place was the pinball show. pinball show received 18 of the votes which is nowhere near triple the amount of votes much less two times the amount of votes so just as a correction because math is hard there weren't even two times that of the of the vote getting but i don't okay that's enough just i thought you're going to talk about the triple drain podcast because they really struggled with how much code is in team spawn and there was a lot of it was almost the whole who's on first yes yes it It was shocking. Guys, it was shocking. I think it might have been Tom Graff on the show who said, math is hard. In response to this back and forth between Travis and Joel. Yes. I was like, is this scripted? What's this? This is so, yeah. It was like. Poor Travis was right. Joel almost convinced him that he was wrong.
    99:32
    Because Joel says things with such conviction. I mean, he's probably responsible for like 30%. See what I did there? 30% of the sales of precision flippers.
    99:43
    Because he's just convinced. He's so convincing. My point to take away with all this, that I know math is hard, but then again, setting narratives may be easy. Deal of the week this week is from Flippin' Out Pinball to Mandalorian Pro we have pre-owned. This thing ain't selling, so I got to keep dropping it. I'm not seeing one in the five. I'm going to do a $58.99. Come get it. Wow. Now let me ask you, now that my ears are perked up. So for $58.99, will you install the Baby Yoda mod so you'll wave his little baby hand? No, that's like a $300 mod. I have one I haven't installed in my own game because I don't have time.
    100:24
    The instructions are like only 18 pages long. Back to the hoarding. It's in my office somewhere. In the pile of mods.
    100:33
    I'm like Scrooge McDuck of mods in my office. you're stepping over UPS boxes everywhere every morning you get up and you have that stripy one piece men's bathing suit and you jump into your pile of insider connected yes absolutely and instead of gold coins spitting out of my mouth they're precision flippers see I'm doing it now deal of the week this week was Mandalorian Pro $58.99 email me at if you want to make use of that deal that is a cash offer come pick it up uh deal i oh i do have a deal of the what in god's name uh deal the wtf this week is i i don't need to say much go to pin side find a creature it's like a bajillion dollars and it's ugly and it's not well done it says restored it's a it's a fucking joke and uh i i simply in the in the forum discussion wrote to this individual and my reply stated sincerely thank you for this for sale ad. Thank you. So go check that out. It was hilarity and sadness all wrapped in one. Somewhat similar to 30% of you voting in the Twippies.
    101:48
    Bye, bye, bye! That's it, Dennis. Where can people catch you? I can always reach out to my Eclectic Gamers podcast email which is eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast at Gamers Podcast. There's a messenger tool. You can use that and I monitor those both fairly regularly. Sweet! You can catch me at the pinball network at gmail.com. Watch straight down the middle of the video series. Anything you can email us there at sdtmpinball at gmail.com.
    102:19
    Patreon maybe is coming for the pinball show. I don't know. I have no clue. We'll see what 2023 has to bring to us. We have some exciting stuff next year. Sponsor of this show is Flippin' Out Pinball. product showcase this week is... Is this Star Wars Home Edition? Take your pick. Do you like the Purdy comic or the OG movie artwork? Regardless, it makes for one of the greatest and most affordable pinball machines and Christmas gifts this holiday season. Sure, the price is $49.99. That's fine. But who else do you know in this industry that's going to give you free shipping? Hell, I'll shave a little bit of money off if you pick it up at the terminal. Let's get that thing under your tree this year. And now that I say that, I can't picture that big box under a Christmas tree. But it's symbolic. You know what I mean. We've got a lot of machines in stock right now, both new and used. Some of the titles are going fairly quickly, such as Rush. It is a fourth quarter rush on sales on Rush. I think I'm out of premiums. I'm down to like one pro.
    103:22
    Mando's picked up quite a bit. Still have some Star Wars if you need some Star Wars. We've got those. We've got Led Zeppelin. We've got Toy Story 4, both CE and LE in stock. We have Guns N' Roses still, LEs. I think we're going to see that drift up. I sold a couple of GNR LEs this weekend at Cincinnati. So, nicely done there. Guardians of the Galaxies are gone. You guys keep asking me for those now that they're gone. What the hell? It's a good game. And for those who were at the Cincinnati show, did you guys ask me about my topper? Some of the people will know that reference to us because we teased an upcoming topper that Flippin' Out Pinball may be responsible for exclusively offering. It was on top of the Guardians of the Galaxy pin at the show. Did you hear about that? Nope. It was a super widescreen type of monitor that played clips from Guardians of the Galaxy. It was really awesome. It's clear. It's beautiful. you got a lot of people talking a lot of people thinking wait a minute that looks pretty badass um is it two thousand dollars like some of the other toppers on the market and i was like no we're gauging interest right now to see if people would like these on their machines because they're pretty universal you can put them on any stern machine you can put them on bally williams machines um they look really dynamic and they're much cheaper than a lot of toppers on the like a guardians topper right now 2500 on the secondary market all day long it's a plastic topper my monitor that shows awesome favorite clips from the film, I'm going to try to get under $1,000. Buy, buy, buy! So keep your eye out on that. We'll have that on the website possibly soon if we go through with that. But a really cool product that serves a lot of purposes. I had advertisements at shows and stuff. I had advertisements on the monitor for flipping out. Then it would show the beautiful Star-Lord. And then it would cut back. There's just endless possibilities for this product because you can help create your own content via USB, SD card, HDMI.
    105:22
    It's pretty cool stuff. So be on the lookout for that. TPN, last week we had a lot of stuff. I'm not by my computer. I'm on location, so I can't check my notes. Neither can I tell you what's coming out. Some cool stuff's coming up.
    105:37
    Pinballers have something coming up. 12 Days of Christmas. Check that out. I believe it's on December 10th. Why I'm using neurons in my brain for that is because there's something wrong with me, but beneficial to TPN and to all of you listeners. For Dennis Creasel, ho, ho, ho, motherfuckers, I'm Zach Minney. That's right. And remember, with Scooby-Doo Pinball coming out soon, they're going to be as pinball famous as those Olive Garden breadsticks.
    106:01
    And always practice safe pinball. Like, hey, Scoob, put down the fucking Scooby Snacks and pick up a calculator. That is hard. I know we'll catch that villain. Oh my God, I sure hope it doesn't turn out like Expo. What sort of security do you guys have? Well, we have this trash can. We have propped up all the way up this rope. Dave Fix made a fucking scarecrow. Hey, they're already sold out at the hotel, so that solved my problem for getting pressured into going to Expo next year. I didn't even know they were open. Warm up this season with Olive Garden's oven-baked pastas, like our new Ravioli Carbonara. and for the gift that keeps on giving there's our never-ending first course which is always on us plus you can share the holiday cheer with our catering olive garden we're all family here