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Ep 33: Big Flip Theory

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 30m·analyzed·May 6, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Ed Robertson guests on Final Round to discuss pinball, Barenaked Ladies' new album, and Marty Robbins' work on Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited.

Summary

Final Round Podcast episode 33 features Ed Robertson from Barenaked Ladies as a guest discussing pinball, his new album "Detour de Force," and the song "Flip." The episode centers on Marty Robbins' involvement with Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited remake, with extensive discussion about game pricing, negative online criticism of pinball machines, and the creative work involved in game design. Ed and the hosts debate game difficulty, accessibility, and collector mentality.

Key Claims

  • Marty Robbins has developed new 2.0 code/rules for Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited remake

    high confidence · Marty states: 'Yeah, so I've actually developed the new code to the new rules. So there's 2.0 code. I'm excited about that 2.0 code.'

  • Marty has worked nearly a year on Fathom Revisited with 16-17 hour days for about 4 months

    high confidence · Marty: 'we've been on this now, and we're talking, you know, 16, 17-hour days, four months, nearly a year working on this.'

  • Fathom Revisited will have a Mermaid Edition limited to 250 units

    high confidence · Jeff mentions 'limited edition 250 Mermaid' and Marty confirms this as a 'safe bet' production number

  • Barenaked Ladies released a new album called 'Detour de Force' with lead single 'Flip'

    high confidence · Ed Robertson and hosts discuss the new album and single throughout the episode

  • The 'Flip' music video was directed by an Italian director found on Instagram and unintentionally included pinball references

    high confidence · Ed: 'it was directed by a gentleman over in italy that we found on instagram and he just i guess took the flip reference and uh we didn't ask to have any pinball in it it was just perfect'

  • Ed Robertson owns a Supreme pinball machine acquired through Supreme's direct channels

    high confidence · Ed describes getting on a 'very small list' to buy Supreme directly from Supreme brand, after Stern said the entire run goes to Supreme

  • Haggis Pinball team includes Damien, Greg (reach-arounds), Scott (creative director), and Lachlan (mechanical engineer)

    high confidence · Jeff and Marty discuss the Haggis team composition early in the episode

  • Rick and Morty pinball sold out 750 units, possibly leaving money on the table

    medium confidence · Jeff mentions Charlie Emery discussion about Rick and Morty: 'we talked about Rick and Morty and how quickly they sold out 750. Well, how do you feel when you see them on the used market?'

Notable Quotes

  • “I can empathize with people who conceive of pinball machines and design mechanical elements and code these incredible machines and work on licensing deals and get them out to the public. And then people just talk about how shitty they are.”

    Ed Robertson @ ~mid-episode — Core theme of the episode: defending designers against online negativity and the emotional toll of harsh criticism

  • “It gets under my skin when the criticism is levied at me but it gets under my skin when people are negative about anything that someone has made. I just think you don't know what it takes to make something.”

    Ed Robertson @ ~mid-episode — Ed's empathy for game designers and broader defense of creative work

  • “If you don't like it, go find the thing you like. But you don't need to chime in and go that thing that has been your whole life for 18 months to two years wasn't worth it.”

    Ed Robertson @ ~mid-episode — Calls for constructive discourse rather than unconstructive negativity in online spaces

  • “The entire run goes to Supreme, and they are selling the machine... I went through every back alley channel I could possibly find”

    Ed Robertson @ ~mid-episode — Illustrates the scarcity and difficulty of obtaining limited edition/boutique pinball machines, and how far collectors go to acquire them

  • “I worked as hard on Johnny Mnemonic as I did on Lord of the Rings. Like, I put everything into it. I wanted it to be the best possible game it could be.”

    Ed Robertson (paraphrasing George Gomez) @ ~mid-episode — George Gomez quote referenced by Ed—emphasizes that designers put equal effort regardless of game reception or perceived success

  • “It's too fucking easy. It's the easiest game I've ever played in one of the newer games.”

    Marty Robbins (on Elvira) @ ~end-episode — Competitive player's critique of Elvira's difficulty—highlights designer/player tension over game challenge levels

  • “The simple answer is it's not for everyone, that game... it's like a palate cleanser between the brutal games. You can play a game that's just fun.”

Entities

Final Round Pinball PodcastorganizationEd RobertsonpersonMarty RobbinspersonJeff TeolispersonHaggis PinballcompanyFathom RevisitedproductBarenaked Ladiesorganization

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Marty Robbins reveals he has developed new 2.0 code/rules for Haggis Pinball's Fathom Revisited remake, with nearly a year of intensive work (16-17 hour days for 4 months) on the project

    high · Marty: 'I've actually developed the new code to the new rules. So there's 2.0 code' and 'we've been on this now...16, 17-hour days, four months, nearly a year working on this'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Fathom Revisited will feature a Mermaid Edition limited to 250 units; Jeff frames this as a 'safe bet' production number balancing demand with risk

    high · Jeff: 'in the case of Haggis with the limited edition 250 Mermaid, I think that's a good safe bet'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Extended discussion of destructive online criticism of pinball machines and how it affects designers; Ed Robertson and Marty both express frustration with negative teardowns on platforms like Pinside

    high · Ed and hosts discuss how negative emotion is more powerful than positivity online, and that criticism lacks understanding of design effort and constraints

  • ?

    community_signal: Community members criticize games without understanding design constraints, manufacturing costs, licensing, factory overhead, and creative effort involved

    high · Ed: 'people don't know what it takes to actually build these things' and critique of cost-based arguments that ignore manufacturing complexity

  • $

    market_signal: Limited edition machines like Supreme and Rick and Morty appear on secondary market, suggesting original production numbers may be conservative relative to demand

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.272

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:40
Welcome to final round 2.0. It is the Marty Robbins show. I'm your MC, Jeff Teels, with the man of the hour, Martin Robbins.
0:50
Maybe I'm selling that a bit, but hello. It's episode 33 of the Final Round People Podcast. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Oh, they're listening because you are the man of the hour. Dude, hot two weeks, and I know we're going to get into that, but my God, I'm really proud of you. You know that. I know you are. There's still a lot to come. There's still a lot I've got to do, so I'm just downplaying it a little bit for now. Are you good at being able to tell when I'm lying? Like if I say to you, oh, well done, great job, like you can kind of send some full of shit? Oh, yeah. Look, it's as obvious as you saying a boot. Like I can spot it a mile away. So, I got to tell you, and you know how I feel about your connection with Haggis Pinball. First of all, I've always loved Damien. Greg, we joke about the reach-arounds and stuff. I think he's a great guy. I don't know, is it Scott? Scott, yes, is the creative director. And Lachlan? Yes, Lachlan is a mechanical engineer. So you've got a pretty good team there at Haggis. We will definitely get into that because it is big news, and it's very, very refreshing news too. But before all that, we have a special guest, Jeff. It's been one year since he's been on the program, and it's great to have him back on again. We all know how much he loves pinball, and it's always good to shoot the shit with Ed Robertson from Bare Naked Ladies. Hello, Ed. Well, hello, gents. I cannot believe that it's been a year since we spoke. Is that because nothing's happened in the intervening 12 months? It is pretty much. I remember at the time I had mentioned to you that you'd actually had to cancel a lot of tours. In fact, when we recorded, you were meant to be in the UK at the time for a big tour, and obviously that didn't happen. How's your year been since then? Well, there have been way more cancellations since we last spoke. Last spring, as you say, when we were meant to be in the UK, We then had to cancel our summer tour and we moved it to this summer. We have just recently moved it to next summer. We're hoping that the UK tour, which moved from last spring to this fall, we're hoping that that'll work. But it all depends how the vaccine rollout goes and how these aggressive variants play out. My fingers are crossed because we've got Royal Albert Hall sold out for Halloween night, October 31st, to end the tour in the UK. So I'm really hoping that can work. But if not, you know, we can only go out when it's safe to do so. So what I'd actually heard last night when I was streaming, there was somebody in the UK that said that I believe half of the UK has had the first shot of vaccine and a quarter of the population has had the second vaccine. So, again, it's what you're saying. We've got to rely on the vaccine. We've got to make sure that the vaccine does what it needs to do. But that's a pretty solid rollout. So you may get your Royal Albert Hole. You never know. Yeah, but it also kind of depends on what the venues are doing as far as capacities and what we have to do in terms of traveling into the country. Do we have to isolate? Do we have to isolate when we get back?

  • Ed Robertson has owned multiple pinball machines and actively buys/sells based on play frequency

    high confidence · Ed: 'I'm a real player collector. And if I'm not playing something, then I move it. So I've sold a bunch. I've brought a bunch of machines.'

  • Elvira House of Horrors is described as an easy, accessible game compared to Guns N' Roses

    high confidence · Ed and Marty discuss Elvira's accessibility and simplicity versus the complexity of Guns N' Roses

    • Ed Robertson @ ~end-episode — Defends game design philosophy: different games serve different purposes and audiences

  • “not everything is for everyone... You just have to find what that magic number is.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~mid-episode — Core philosophy about market segmentation and realistic expectations for game design

  • “It's been really nice to be at home all this time... it reminded me like, oh yeah, there's so much about this that isn't big audiences and touring... There's something about just being in a band that's fucking awesome.”

    Ed Robertson @ ~early-episode — Pandemic reflection on the creative process vs. commercial touring—parallel to pinball design discussion

  • “They wanted two games to start their collection. They went with Beatles and Jungle Queen. Simple to learn, I would say, in both cases, which is what you want.”

    Ed Robertson @ ~end-episode — Real-world example of newcomers choosing accessible games over complexity—validates market for easier machines

    • Detour de Forceproduct
    Flipproduct
    Supremeproduct
    Guns N' Rosesproduct
    Elvira House of Horrorsproduct
    Beatlesproduct
    Jungle Queenproduct
    Rick and Mortyproduct
    Spider-Man Homeproduct
    Medieval Madnessproduct
    George Gomezperson
    Cassandra Petersonperson
    Pirates of the Caribbeanproduct
    Charlie Emeryperson
    Pinsideorganization
    Ben Sidesperson
    Ericperson

    medium · Jeff questions Rick and Morty visibility on used market and suggests they 'could have sold a few more'; Supreme example shows extreme scarcity driving demand

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Debate over game difficulty design: Ed advocates for accessible, simple games as 'palate cleansers,' while Marty prefers challenging competitive titles; both acknowledge not all games are for everyone

    high · Discussion of Elvira vs Guns N' Roses difficulty; Ed's point that 'it's not for everyone' and Jeff's radio industry analogy about 70% non-listeners

  • ?

    collector_signal: Ed Robertson identifies as a 'real player collector' who actively moves machines based on play frequency; actively maintains rotation of games at multiple locations

    high · Ed: 'I'm a real player collector. And if I'm not playing something, then I move it. So I've sold a bunch. I've brought a bunch of machines'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Supreme brand controlled entire production run of Supreme pinball machine; Stern could not sell directly; only way to acquire was through Supreme's own channels

    high · Ed: 'The entire run goes to Supreme, and they are selling the machine... I went through every back alley channel I could possibly find'

  • ?

    content_signal: Ed Robertson (Barenaked Ladies) released new single 'Flip' with unintentional pinball references in music video; actively collecting and playing pinball machines; represents cultural cross-pollination between music and pinball

    high · Ed discusses 'Flip' video directed by Italian filmmaker who included pinball elements; Ed's extensive pinball collection and play; Jeff promoted 'Flip' as potential pinball anthem

  • ?

    design_innovation: Recommendation pattern emerging for new collectors: Beatles and Jungle Queen selected by newcomers specifically for simplicity and ease of learning, suggesting market demand for introductory-level modern games

    medium · Ed: 'They wanted two games to start their collection. They went with Beatles and Jungle Queen. Simple to learn, I would say, in both cases'

  • ?

    product_concern: Rick and Morty experienced flipper knockdown issues post-launch; Eric (likely designer) worked with players on troubleshooting; issues appear to have been resolved through updates

    medium · Ed: 'I've been having this discussion with somebody... I've been back and forth and, you know, trying to help troubleshoot some of that with Eric. And I think they got a lot of it figured out now'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Pattern of collector resistance to remakes: Medieval Madness remake and P3 platform criticized for not 'feeling like the original'; Ed argues this criticism misses the point that every machine plays differently

    high · Discussion of remake criticism; Ed's point that 'every time you step up to a machine, you have to adjust to the slightly different feel of that machine'

    • 4:14
    For a Canadian band to tour in the UK, it's barely a break-even proposition for us. So if we have to go over there and isolate for two weeks, well, we're upside down in costs all of a sudden. Or if one major venue has cut capacity in half or a quarter, then we can't make money going over there. So that's the sad reality of touring. Well, if you remember last time you were on, I had a bit of a whinge, a complaint about the fact that you didn't come to Australia. Well, had you had Australian dates, we're not in lockdown anymore. You would have had a very successful tour here. admittedly not for much money but you still would have had a tour well it's that when you guys put in that rabbit proof fence you also put in a virus proof island so good on you we did pretty much what you were able to do in the last year was create a brand new album Detour to Force and we've heard the lead single Flip in fact I've already stolen it for an intro for Pinball Profile thanks Ed anytime time well it's such a catchy song and so catchy and you slipped in some pinball in the video i noticed yeah uh and and wasn't even me and that was directed by a gentleman over in italy that we found on instagram and he just i guess took the flip reference and uh we didn't ask to have any pinball in it it was just perfect it does work well and i know you got to actually play it live on a recent production. I guess that's what you can do nowadays with the pandemic. And a lot of artists are doing this where they're doing kind of virtual concerts, but it had to be nice at least to get back with the band and play live to some sort of audience, albeit virtual, but still a large audience in that. You know, it was a blast. And it kind of came at a perfect time for me because I'm actually, I have to say, like, I'm really enjoying this forced downshift. You know, it's the first time in my life that I haven't been in a different city 150 days of the year, you know, or more sometimes. And that kind of anchorless existence is exciting and it's fun a lot of the time, but it can also be very exhausting and sometimes disorienting. And it's been really nice to be at home all this time. And it's easy when you've been doing what I do for as long as I've been doing it. It's easy to really focus on the, you know, bad sleeping on a tour bus and hanging around in airports and hanging around in parking lots. And, you know, the show is always fun for me. And, you know, that's kind of what keeps me going on the tour is the shows really are always fun. But what I was reminded of when we got together to do this live stream thing, because we rehearsed for like four days to learn new songs and just kind of get, you know, we hadn't played a full concert in a long time. and I really loved hanging out with the guys. Like it kind of felt like the early days again. And it reminded me like, oh yeah, there's so much about this that isn't big audiences and touring and the, the large scale of performance. There's something about just being in a band that's fucking awesome. And it was a great reminder of that. I'm just like, wow, I love playing with these guys. I love hanging out with these guys. And we've got, you know, 25 or 30 years of inside jokes with each other that like kind of its own language. So it was really great. I had an amazing time. And my buddy, Edward Pond, who shot it, directed it and edited the whole thing, did such an amazing job. And it's fun for me to like look back at that stuff and go, oh, we look pretty cool. We look like a rock band that knows what we're doing. So Silver Ball was obviously a big pin reference. I mean, it's actually got the ball on the album cover. Was Flip meant to have that kind of metaphor as well? What I'm asking is, are you okay for us to take this as the new pinball anthem? Please do, but it certainly wasn't my intention. The Flip I'm talking about is to try and see another point of view. You know, it kind of comes out of like watching the social dilemma and just watching, you know, the last American election and just thinking that it's really high time that we all got out of our echo chambers and at least attempted to understand another point of view rather than seeing any opposite viewpoint as an enemy and an attack. So that's really the intent behind the song is like try to empathize a little bit. Have you yourself gone through that? I mean, like have you come to the realization like, I don't know, a movie like The Last Jedi is actually a real piece of shit? Or are you still under that opinion that it's a masterpiece? Well, not being a misogynist, I can see the merits of that film.
    9:51
    And I know it's hard for other people. um particularly cry babies who think the star wars universe is akin to some sort of alternate religious mindset and not just popcorn fodder you know i i struggle i struggled for a long time because my job kind of dictates that i engage with the internet and it took me a long time to figure out i just need to broadcast and i need to stay out of the comment section um because i think we just live in this strange time where people think being super negative is really cool or something and it mystifies me frankly i don't understand why someone would take the time to go to my Facebook page or my Instagram feed and say, you guys suck? Like, what are you doing here? I'm sorry. How shitty is your life that you're spending time on the feed of a band you don't enjoy? Yeah. You know, I think the same thing all the time on Pinside. It's like, why are you in the thread of a game you despise? go to the thread of the game you like and talk about why you like it instead of trying to convince everybody that likes a title you don't like that they're wrong i just don't get it i but it's it seems to be the prevailing online mindset is the teardown is much more aggressive than the appreciation of anything i think it's because they so many behavioral studies about this kind of stuff, but effectively what they're saying is negative emotion is more powerful than positivity and a teardown on a social media or any sort of open forum, a teardown is much easier for somebody to do than to rally people around positivity. So I think that's why it happens because it's easier. Sure. But, you know, as somebody who writes songs and arranges songs and perform songs and records and produces records, I can empathize with people who conceive of pinball machines and design mechanical elements and code these incredible machines and work on licensing deals and get them out to the public. And then people just talk about how shitty they are. and it's so frustrating like i empathize with those people making those pinball machines because i think there's someone whose their qualifications are they have a laptop or they have a phone and so that gives them the ability to say that thing you just spent two years on is a fucking piece of shit and you're not getting my money you know it's like not only do you not know what was involved in making that but there's a pretty good chance you've never made anything so you know i hate that it gets under my skin uh like it gets under my skin personally when when the criticism is levied at me but it gets under my skin when people are negative about anything that someone has made. I just think you don't know what it takes to make something. So if you don't like it, go find the thing you like. But you don't need to chime in and go that thing that has been your whole life for 18 months to two years wasn't worth it. Funny you should mention that because I'm now part of that world because I don't know whether you know, I'm part of the team at Haggis that's releasing the Fathom remake, which is Fathom Revisited. I did not know that. Yeah, so I've actually developed the new code to the new rules. So there's 2.0 code. I'm excited about that 2.0 code. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so am I. And we've been on this now, and we're talking, you know, 16, 17-hour days, four months, nearly a year working on this. And it's the same thing. It gets out there, and everyone's just like, you guys suck because, A, it doesn't have what I want, or B, the price is too much, or whatever. And you're right. It's kind of like, oh, if you only knew what we've gone through to get this to this place, you'd probably have more appreciation for it. Exactly. And, you know, I had this conversation with George Gomez who said, what people don't get is I worked as hard on Johnny Mnemonic as I did on Lord of the Rings. Like, I put everything into it. I wanted it to be the best possible game it could be. And that's the, you know, that's the case when I'm writing songs. And I am currently, I'm going to guess I'm six and a half feet from an original Fathom. Yes. And I'm still very excited about the Haggis Fathom remake. And I would consider going for the 2.0 version, whatever you're calling that version. The Mermaid Edition. Yeah. I actually had a friend locally who's been lusting after a fathom for a long, long time. And he said, oh, I don't know if I, you know, if I take the plunge, I've got to sell whatever game. And I said, well, I'll buy that game from you if it helps you, you know, take the plunge and order this fathom. And I said, tell you what, like, if it doesn't work out for you, I'll be your buyer for whatever you have into it. So I've made it nearly impossible for my friend to say no. It doesn't make sense for me to buy it because I have a beautiful original. But if I didn't have, I'd be all over it. But the point is that you're lucky to have a beautiful original. We wanted to do this because we know so many people just can't find these machines in good condition. Yeah, but Marty, why aren't you doing it for, like, it should be $2,300.
    16:11
    Yeah, Marty. When I got my original Fathom, it was less than that. Now, you don't have to take my advice, but if you guys put these out at $1,800 for the standard edition and like $22 for the mermaid edition, I think you'd sell boatloads of them. So we'd lose thousands and thousands of dollars on all of them. Okay, that's a great suggestion. I'm just saying, if you want my advice. I guess that's the other part of it is that people don't know what it takes to actually build these things and think well you've got the original assets, it's cheap no it's not because those original assets don't exist yeah, well and even scale that up to Stern people go like well I worked out the parts list and it's ridiculous that they're charging that much really? you worked out the parts list? Did you factor in the factory and the hundreds of employees? Marketing, everything, the license, all that. It's like, is anything we buy in life anywhere the cost of the parts included in it? Like, why do pinball people think that they should be able to buy a pinball machine and that Stern should only be making $6 on the sale? Well, Ed, I never get upset about any price of any pinball machine, whether it's new, whether it's used, whether it's being sold secondhand, all that. The price is exactly what someone is willing to pay for. That's what it is. I can see. I know some people are upset because the price in the hobby has gone up and up and up and up. But nobody seems to have found the ceiling yet. If people are buying $38,000 Pirates of the Caribbean, I don't know. Did you ever buy a Supreme? We have a problem. Of course I bought a Supreme. Okay. And did you flip it? No. I love it. Okay. So people were saying that price was ridiculous. And, yeah, maybe for comparing it to another machine, or I know Primus was another example too. Wow, that's a pro price and it's only got this on it. It's what people are willing to pay for it. And when you're ready to sell that or any of these other games, you'll probably get that same price or maybe even more. I bought, I was lucky to get a Supreme for retail price, which was still crazy high. But I actually was considering buying the Spider-Man home machine because I had a ton of fun on it. I dropped by Stern one day and I loved the game. I just thought this is a really simple, it's more like an 80s rule set on a modern game with ramps and good sound. I really, really liked it, but I didn't talk myself into buying it. When Supreme was announced, my son, he's now 18, but he's a total sneakerhead and a streetwear brand. He's super into that stuff. And it was the first time I've ever seen him excited about a pinball machine. He was like, Dad, we have to get this. So I called Stern right away, and I was like, hey, I need to get one of those Supreme machines. And they actually said, we can't help you. The entire run goes to Supreme, and they are selling the machine. So I went through every back alley channel I could possibly find, And it turned out my manager knew somebody who was like a very high up person at Supreme. And it got my name on a very small list of people that were able to buy it directly from Supreme. So I got, you know, quote, lucky to spend a crazy amount of money to buy a ridiculously simple pinball machine. But at the end of the day, I really love it. It's really simple, but it's fun. It's kind of a modern machine that has more of an early solid state aesthetic, which is my favorite era of pinball. And, you know, I'm a lucky guy. I'm insanely fortunate, so the money was not an issue. It was, do I want this pinball machine? And the answer was yes. I didn't buy it to hope to flip it. I didn't buy it to impress anybody except maybe my kid who's super into Supreme. and I've had a ton of fun with it. How dare you, according to Ben Sides. I know, right? According to Ben Sides.
    20:50
    I know. But no, I had actually played... Way to jack up the price, Ed. You're what's wrong with this hobby.
    20:58
    No, because I had also played the Spider-Man Home at Papa when I was at Papa with Jeff, when Jeff mistook me for somebody else. But it was surprisingly a good game and I'm happy with all the remakes. I would much rather them use Spider-Man Home as the base for all their sort of boutique games than Wonelli. Star Wars pin's fun, too. Yeah, yeah. It is. It's a good layout. It's fun. Well, and that's another platform, I think, that they can use to do a boutique line, right? Yeah, I'm all about that. It makes a ton of sense. And I like remakes, too. Like when they first brought out, you know, the Medieval Madness remake and all I heard nonstop, oh, it doesn't feel like the original. Oh, it doesn't feel. You hear the same thing about P3. Oh, the flippers feel weird. It's like I don't agree with any of that. Like every time you step up to a machine, you have to adjust to the slightly, you know, slightly different feel of that machine. Whether it's old, it may have been totally rocked and have thousands and thousands of plays on it or might be snappy and new. And you always have to adjust. I think that's the same with a remake or with a P3 or with any kinds of different pinball platforms. You know, I've been my Rick and Morty. I've had some issues with some flipper knockdown and stuff. And so I've been back and forth and, you know, trying to help troubleshoot some of that with Eric. And I think they got a lot of it figured out now But it didn make me enjoy the game any less It didn make me go online and go stay away from this game because the flippers feel slightly different you know and now they they feel totally great and i'm so glad i have that game yeah look i'm glad you said that i've been having this discussion with somebody who's umming and ahhing about getting a fathom revisited and they're like i just don't feel it's going to play exactly the same well oh have you ever played two fathoms that play the same. That was exactly my point last night. Yeah. So it's going to be close, but have you ever played a new in-box Fathom? Right. I haven't. Yeah. A lot will be soon. No, that's a good point. Back to what Ed was saying just about the negativity and what you see online and Pinside, and I know you've had to step away from things like that. I relate that to my radio days and being on air. Let's say you're the number one morning show, And I one time had a 30% share, which was never heard of in the market I was in. It's great. But you know what that said to me? That said, oh, 70% of the people don't listen to me or don't care or don't like me. I'm doing something wrong. And if they get a focus group of 16 people, the majority of people are not going to like it. So it was a very scary feeling. But what I had to get my head around, and it's the same in pinball, is not everything is for everyone. So you don't have to have everyone universally love that pinball machine. You don't have to universally, everyone has to love Barenaked Ladies or a radio show or Haggis or anything. You just have to find what that magic number is. And in the case of Haggis with the limited edition 250 Mermaid, I think that's a good safe bet. You know, we had Charlie Emery on last week and we talked about Rick and Morty and how quickly they sold out 750. Well, how do you feel when you see them on the used market? You probably could have sold a few more, and he knows he could have. But you have to kind of feel what that number is and what's comfortable. And again, there's an audience for everyone out there. You just have to look at what the numbers are and how this is going to benefit your company when you're manufacturing these games and make it profitable. Well, I'm just glad that in exchange for doing this interview that Martin has put aside a mermaid edition for me. I really appreciate that. in return i know i had no idea you were involved and i just want to say congratulations i i think it looks like an incredible package and i'm excited about it yeah thank you hope i get the opportunity to play one well you just gotta get your mate to buy one and there you go done yeah and i want to say ed thanks for listening my last episode of pinball profile where we explained that marty was part of it so thank you for your loyal listenership i appreciate that i missed i missed It's the odd episode. Yeah. Come on. I'm a busy man. He's just released a new single. You know, he's got people all over him. So, you know. Okay. So speaking of Detour to Force, the new album and Flip the New Single, you said there's certainly more than 12 songs on it. Did the song from the Reach Around Awards make the album? Because it's a fucking masterpiece.
    25:47
    Now, I got to back up and correct you. You're saying the same thing that I would say 85% of people who have interviewed me, I've been doing tons of press. It's just detour de force. What did I say? Detour de force. And that's what everybody is saying. And I think it's something about the de and the tour de force. It's making people mispronounce it, but it's about the detour of the pandemic. Okay, but it's a play on the words. Tour de Force, but it's a Detour de Force. All right. Detour de Force. There. I'm not going to go back and correct the old ones. I thought you were making a spoof of maybe Tour de France or something like that. Yeah. No, we love this record, and we thought it was a real Tour de Force, but the pandemic sidetracked everything and forced us to record a whole bunch of it remotely and be sending files back and forth, so that was the Detour de Force. Okay. I apologize. Anyway, did you ask me a question? Well, I was just going to follow up about, you know, with the first single flap.
    26:56
    It's fleep. No, the reach around song you gave us. I mean, to be there during a pandemic, the reach arounds to finally put a good version of Pinball Wizard together.
    27:18
    Most of them are horseshit. You end up getting bored. Some will give you trophies for all the work you do. But if you've got a checkbook, then we've got to reach around for you. Ed, that's your greatest song ever. It's a masterpiece. What can I say? It's an embarrassment, and I hope to never hear it again.
    27:41
    What you need to say is, I'm looking forward to next year's song. Right, Ed? Because you know we're knocking on that door. Yeah, well, the door is not even, the door is always open for you guys. So don't knock, just come in. But it came back so quick and I was just like, oh my God, how clever is this in such a short period of time? Then I remember we talked about it last time and I know that part of your concept is, you know, creating a song on the fly, right? So that's obviously what you can do is just create just like that. It's one of my few abilities.
    28:17
    it's uh yeah you know it's one thing to say that i've been lucky in my career and i certainly have but if you knew how incapable i would be of doing anything else it's like tenfold lucky because i have a weird mind and i'm able to link thoughts together and and make them rhyme and uh i've made a living out of that so yeah to write a silly fun little parody song i mean jeff could probably look into his uh text messages from when he asked me to do it to when i sent him the final version i don't think a lot of time allowed no that's what i'm saying it was very quick behind the curtain he came up with the first verse and i'm like that's great he goes yeah i'm having trouble the second verse so i start writing something by the time i sent it to him he said oh i've already got it done like i had nothing to do with that at all i i think originally i said ah do you want to do the ramble on song because of the zeppelin pinball machine stuff he's like i was thinking this and it was like holy shit that's way better absolutely thanks ed well glad you enjoyed it so in the last year have you changed your lineup of pinball machines uh yeah I have a lot of machines, but I'm a real player collector. And if I'm not playing something, then I move it. So I've sold a bunch. I've brought a bunch of machines. So I was saying I'm staying up at this lake house and have been for a year. So I have a dozen or so machines in the city in Toronto. So there's a bunch of stuff that I hadn't played in over a year. so I actually just brought my Elvira House of Horrors up here and I'm loving it it's actually the first game that's pulled me away from my Guns and Roses which I was playing almost exclusively since I got it and yeah then I hauled Elvira up here when I'd gone into the city for some reason and man I'm having a blast with it Can you explain to Jeff why Elvira is such a good game? Because he often shits on it, especially when I'm streaming it. I'll explain why later, but go ahead.
    30:35
    Well, I would say it's a really good game because it's fun. And as a contrast to Guns N' Roses, not that Guns N' Roses isn't fun, but if you want to get a good score on that game, it's a lot of work. And it can be quite frustrating to line up the patches that you want while simultaneously nailing all the booster multiballs that you want before you even start a song. And it's all kind of esoteric. Like, there's very little about Guns N' Roses that is intuitive. A lot of it is like, I think anyway, I think it's like a couple of layers deep in the pinball nerd world, which, of course, I love that world, so I'm loving it. But, you know, my 21-year-old son, who plays a lot of pinball with me, he was like, I have no idea what's going on. Like, I have no idea. And he's not a novice. Like, he competes with me on Avengers Infinity Quest and, you know, all the games I have here. And he was, like, totally turned off by Guns N' Roses. He was just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. and when I'm in a multiball, he was like, so am I supposed to shoot at the thing that's not lit? Like what the hell is happening right now? And I can see that. So then you go over to Elvira. It shoots like butter. It's such a simple, great layout. And the clips are all fun. And of course, I have a thing for Elvira. And that doesn't hurt either. I just think the game's a ton of fun. It's got boatloads of assets with, you know, 30 plus whatever it is, different B movies in it and tons of original call outs by Cassandra Peterson. And I just think, oh, and they got I can't remember the guy's name, but he did the original call outs and scared stiff. It's just a fun game. It's it's like classic pinball with a modern twist. Go ahead, Martin. Shit on me. Go ahead. No, I don't need to. I think Ed did that on my behalf. I will explain my only problem with Elvira. Okay. It's too fucking easy. It's the easiest game I've ever played in one of the newer games. And it is fun. It's everything Ed said. It's fun. The callouts are amazing. The shots are smooth. I've played it a few times, and I'm like, I could be playing this forever and ever and ever because that ramp is the easiest ramp I've ever seen. I can hit the locks. Well, here's what I would say. I'm going to cut you off because I know where you're going with this. Okay. And it's part of what we said earlier. And I'm not going to say, well, you haven't set up your Elvira because that's argument number one on Pinside. Wow, you should make it steeper and move the outlanes and blah, blah, blah. That to me doesn't make it any more fun. It just makes it more frustrating. What I would say, the simple answer is it's not for everyone, that game. And I like super hard games. And then sometimes, you know, it's almost like it's like a palate cleanser between the brutal games. You can play a game that's just fun. And, you know, well, I guess part of the difference, too, Jeff, is as a non-tournament player, I'm not looking to exploit the scoring opportunities of a game and going, well, that ramps easy. I can just nail it over and over and over again. I'm trying to work my way through the story. so I'm making a lot of the dangerous shots in the game and it doesn't play as long when you're trying to shoot everything in the game and I actually just recommended that game to good friends of mine who are just starting their pinball collection they have a great little yeah they will love it and they actually said to me we want something easier like they played everything in my collection you know from Walking Dead to Bram Stoker's Dracula to older games, Big Game, to Total Nuclear Annihilation, to Batman 66, to Iron Maiden. Like, all these games are games I had in my home. And do you know what game they wanted first for their brand new arcade? Beatles. Oh, okay. They loved it. And they said, like, Beatles is for sure. That's what we want. So they wanted two games to start their collection. They went with Beatles and Jungle Queen. Simple to learn, I would say, in both cases, which is what you want for a novice player. So they've got four games now, and when they have friends and family over, everybody gravitates to Beatles, and they love it. So they're like, well, we want another modern game, but they have a Ninja Turtles. And they're like, we don't know what we're doing in Ninja Turtles. It's too hard. Nobody can get anywhere on it. And so I actually just recommended Elvira because it's easier to know what you're supposed to do. The shots are wider and easier to make. And I was like, if you're okay with boobs, then Elvira, you're going to have a ton of fun with it. See, I don't think it's a bad game, Marty and Ed. I just don't think it's for me. But that doesn't make it a bad game. It would never make my collection because of what I'm looking for in a pinball machine. And Ed gave a good point about I'm trying to do different things, which makes it harder. That's a good point because I look at my Simpsons pinball party over here. If you're a tournament player, the easiest thing is hit the garage, go up top, do it again, over and over again. I don't like to play it that way. I like to do all the different shots to try to get to the wizard mode because there's a lot on there. It's not the right way to play, but it's the fun way to play. Right. But I would also, and this was my counter to you at the time where I said, yeah, the shots are relatively easy. They're not completely easy, but they are easier than most. But the rules aren't easy. So yes, you can make the shots, but you can't do the exact shot that you want to get a higher score. You've still got to nail your shots. I think your biggest criticism was that the shot up the middle is too easy. And you know what? You're absolutely right. That is a very basic shot. But everything else is as a higher difficulty level, but it's the rules that are difficult. Yeah, the right ramp actually feels quite tight. And I find it hard to make when I need to make it. Yeah, agreed. So, Ed, you mentioned a bunch of games that are in your collection. A lot of them were new. When a new title comes out, and it can be any company, what is it that tweaks your interest? Is it the theme? Is it the designer, the code, the art? What makes you go, I've got to put money down on that one? Or are you a guy who kind of samples everything, tries it out, and then moves it if not? Or do you go, no, that one doesn't do it for me? I think a lot of my friends think I just buy everything, and I totally don't. To me, it's got to be a combination of a theme I'm excited about, a layout that looks cool to me, and code is really big for me, generally speaking. But sometimes, you know, I would say some of my favorite games are I love The Walking Dead. Like, I think the bloodbath rule is just so cool. I don't know if anything like that had been done before. Maybe there's some pinball historian who could tell me that something like that had been done. But it's really difficult to explain bloodbath to a non-pinball person, to tell them, no, no, the targets don't represent the light that's in front of them. Like, the light is cycling, and you lock in, you know, you guys understand the bloodbath rules, and probably everyone who's listening does too. We do now. Or they wouldn't be listening to a pinball podcast. Thanks, Ed. This guy's good. But that, to me, was such a cool hook that actually kind of changed the layout of that game because it changed your focus of what you were shooting for. So interesting little mechanical hooks like that I find really cool. And the game's got to be fun. Bottom line, it's got to be fun. So then it's a topic that's come up a couple of times in the last week for me. And last night I went on a big rant about it on my stream. and it's to do with pros and premiums or premium LE and really which one of these machines is better, whether there's value in the premium and LE. And the discussion was really around when is a pro version, and we're really talking about Stern here, when is a pro version good enough? And we then started going through some of the machines where there are some differences. But I'm keen to know from you, Ed, whether you're somebody that instantly goes in as an L.A. and premium regardless, or whether you weigh up all three models to determine which one's best for you. Well, I hate the word value in terms of judging whether a pinball machine, whether the value is there. It's not there in any case. It's totally insane that anybody has one, let alone 20 or 50 pinball machines. It's ludicrous. We're not supposed to be collecting these things. So this discussion of value, it's what ruins the discussion of every pinball machine, is that is the value there? And if I get it and I don't like it, am I going to get my value out of it? Well, don't buy a $9,000 thing if you're worried about getting value out of it. Like it's so, that's what creates so much drama and anger in this hobby is the expectation that you should be able to buy something and then play it for 18 months and sell it for more than you paid for it.
    40:39
    I think it's really ridiculous. Now, the other side of that is I think most pro models are awesome. They're incredibly fun pinball machines. And when I'm touring, I will go into any arcade I can find and I will play all the machines they have there. And I don't care if it's a pro or a premium or an LE. I like playing pinball, period. I don't care. When I'm buying a machine for myself, I almost always buy the premium unless the LE package is more aesthetically pleasing to me. So I have a Jurassic Park premium here, but I have an Avengers LE. And to me, it's a question of aesthetics. I don't think it's very rare that the LE offers, quote, value over the premium. It's an aesthetic choice for me. If I like the way it looks, then I'll get the LE over the premium. And I know that's a ridiculously fortunate position to be in, but I just think that the value discussion kills the fun of pinball. That's so funny that you should say that about the way it looks, because the LE that I purchased in Led Zeppelin, out of the three art packages, it's my least favorite of the three, but I wanted the code that the Premium and the LE offer. And I probably should have bought the Premium, but it's my dream team, so I said, okay, I've got to get the LE. But as far as the way it looks, I'm like, the other two are so much nicer, especially for a Zep fan. Yeah, actually, the Premium was my favorite package of those three. Oddly, I think I would have liked the Premium with the Pro Backglass would be my ideal Led Zeppelin. Nice. Get both. Yeah, get both, swap them out, sell the other. So you bring in new games, but at times, like you said, you're a player collector. If you're not playing it, it's gone. Yeah. To move it, Ed, what is that kind of, okay, I've had enough of this, I've done everything. Is it, I've completed the wizard mode, it's not as fun as I thought, I've heard all the call-outs. What makes you move a game? Yeah, sometimes it's just a case of not having a desire to play it anymore. I've played it for two years or whatever, and I just don't find myself going back to it. But sometimes, like, for example, Metallica. I stopped playing Metallica. Like, I just never went to it, but I knew I loved it, and I didn't want to sell it. So I moved it to my brother's place. My brother joked at one point, if you're ever looking for a place to store those machines, I got room. So I just delivered it to him. I knew I didn't want to sell it, but I knew I was not playing it right now. And I didn't want to just fold it and put it in a storage space. So my brother's loving it right now. He's got one pinball machine. It's a Metallica, and he couldn't be happier. Yeah, if you ever had to have just one pinball machine in your life, I would totally recommend Metallica. I'm saying this because I've said this so many times, Ed. Even though it's not my favourite machine, Star Trek is my favourite, Stern, I think Metallica is Stern's best machine they've ever made. Yeah, it just hit everything right. The modes, the layout, the Dirty Donnie's art, like, it's kind of the spirit of pinball. Yeah. But there are lots of games, you know, from that era and newer that I've played and loved and then just moved on because I have a finite amount of space and I don't want to be that guy that's just hoarding machines. So, you know, I'm lucky I used to travel for a living, but I travel all over the place. I because I'm, you know, known in in the community, I've wound up getting a lot of great deals on machines. both new and used and so i pass those deals on directly to all my pinball buddies here in southern ontario and so if i sell a game i'm never looking to make a dime on it i just want it to go to somebody who's gonna you know that it's gonna make them happy so i'm i'm tied into a pretty big group of guys and you know i'll just kind of float out there hey i'm gonna get rid of this game i I got it for this smoking price. Does anybody want it And it usually gone in a couple of hours So I been really fortunate hooked up with a good group of people and everybody really helpful with everybody else I've picked up games here locally at my cottage for a friend in Ottawa, and everybody helps out where they can. Yeah, everyone has only a finite space for sure. So with where you're living now and your home in the GTA, you must not have room for any new games. So you probably haven't purchased any new games at all in the last little while. That wouldn't necessarily be true. What?
    45:48
    Yeah. What? Like I don't know the answer is coming? Go on. As you know, because I helped with the logistics and paperwork to import a game for you, Mr. Teolis. um but yeah i did a group buy from the replay effects sale and uh yeah i imported 29 machines over the border only 10 of those were for me one was for jeff one was for my friend walt and 17 for my friend dave so uh yeah it was fun it was just fun to do a big buy like that and and work on all the logistics. And I sadly, I moved them all directly into a storage space in downtown Toronto because I actually have no room for them right now. But luckily, I'm a good pal of the guy who owns the storage facility. So I got a smoking deal on the storage room. And my plan is to slowly rotate the games into my collection and if i love them then something else has got to go if i don't love them then i'll pass them on to my friends here locally were you getting any sort of like grail pins in there or just some that you just like uh there was lots of things that were cool and i thought oh one day i'd like to own that for example golden eye i've always enjoyed Goldeneye when I found it on location. It's a really underrated pinball machine. Yeah, so I was excited to get that, as well as this is a bit of an odd duck, but I love Avatar. The pin. Not the movie. So does Marty. It's one of my favorite pins. Oh, I had no idea. Wow. I love it. It's so underrated. I agree with you, Ed. Yeah, great call-outs. Cool rules. yeah i like that game but i will say the games i was most excited to grab of that whole lot were uh catacomb and cheetah because the the early sterns are that's my grail era i just i love them you picked up an early stern for me didn't you i did alley it's uh it looks pretty nice and uh I wouldn't have even told you I got it if I didn't already have an Ali myself. I love that game. But yeah, as I look around my room here, I've got a Dragon Fist and a big game. And it's absolutely my favorite era. So I'm very excited to get Cheetah and Catacomb. Well, I've also got a bit of information for you, which is now going to greatly increase the value of your Catacomb. I have played that very machine. so you are now going to double your money on that now i can tell you wow so what you're saying is i'll i'll need to disinfect it before i bring it into the house ed you definitely will because i played that fucking machine too and i tilted on that and that's the only way l1 beat me in the stern pro circuit i'm sure there were other reasons too but in my mind because i tilted that's why uh you'll need to get a priest in to give it an exorcism is what you'll actually need The number of times that I've heard, if only I'd blank, I would have beaten Keith Elwin. Like, you think? The number of times I've heard Ed say, if only I played in a tournament, I could actually be considered a decent player. But I got to play, my friend. I played in a few tournaments, but it's not, you know, the biggest problem I have is I just have so little room for more awards and trophies. I'm, you know, the cabinet is pretty full and I just want to give you guys something to celebrate because would it be fair for a Hall of Famer, 10 time Juno award winning, 15 million records selling, World Music Award having like, do you really want me to take home the pinball awards too? Like, I just, it wouldn't feel right. It wouldn't feel right. On top of the fact that the one time I did enter Papa, I did not qualify in C division. So that may have something to do with it as well. That's fine, Ed. I don't need you to play in pinball tournaments. I'm going to give Kim Mitchell a call and see what he's doing for the next event. So I don't know if he's a pinball guy. Kim's a buddy. I know he is. I haven't ever talked pinball with him though. Kim's a Canadian music legend for those listening outside of our great white north country. And I know that Ed and you are friends. In fact, I know when Kim was with Max Webster, that was a big part of the kind of they were known as Little Rush here up north. And they toured a lot with Rush. But Barenaked Ladies did a Max Webster cover with Kim Mitchell. So that was kind of cool. Oh, it was a thrill. Like, you know, when I was 15, 16 years old, I was taping Kim Mitchell songs off the radio and listening to them on my cassette Walkman. And my mom sewed a Kim Mitchell patch onto the back of my jean jacket. You know, I wrote Kim Mitchell on my pencil case at school. Like, you cannot overstate what a massive fan I was. I saw him live a dozen times. And then to be called and asked to do a remake of a Max Webster song with him, it was incredible. He played on one of our records years ago, maybe 10 plus years ago. And I went to his studio and, quote, produced it. I couldn't even say anything. I was so beside myself to be in the room with him while he was playing guitar. And he's such a cool dude. He's so unassuming and super friendly. But, you know, I had his he was so to my jean jacket. I listened to him nonstop. My high school band played, you know, a dozen Kim Mitchell and Max Webster songs. So it's tough to lose that, you know, as I'm trying to describe what I'm looking for somewhere in the back of my head. I'm going, holy shit, I'm in a studio talking to Kim Mitchell right now. You know, I'm still a music fan, and it just takes me back to those early days of learning to play guitar, and he was just such a huge inspiration. Well, let's bring Marty and myself into the Kim Mitchell loop, if you will, because I got drum lessons from Max Webster's Jerry McCracken. No kidding. Yeah, I did. In fact, my first lesson, I'm like, can you please teach me when the levee breaks? I can't do those fucking triplets. Can you help me with my bloody foot? And I've seen you, by the way, play Whole Lotta Love on the skins and very, very good. I really enjoyed that. But Marty, when I went to Australia, Marty picks me and my wife Ann up at the airport. And whatever, let's say it was a half an hour drive, Marty made this unbelievable Canadian 80s music mix. And Marty, I still remember that. And Marty's a big fan.
    53:09
    Cool. Of who? Marty, you played, I remember Glass Tiger was on there. Of course it was Glass Tiger. Best Canadian band ever. Honeymoon Suite, I think. You pulled out some stuff I was like, wow. There might have been Obscure Men Without Sides. I think you played Blue Peter, Rest in Peace, to the lead singer who just passed away. I might have. There was Len, Still My Sunshine. Oh, just such a fantastic pop song.
    53:36
    Banger. Isn't it? Thank you. Jeff didn't know that they were Canadian. But yeah, no. I did too. Oh, my God. Echo Beach. Remember? Oh, Martha. You betcha. Not just Martha. And the muffins as well. And all her muffins, yeah.
    53:56
    Some good stuff there. Wow. Oh, boy. Okay, Ed, we've kept you on for a while, and we know you're a busy, busy man. I'm sure you've missed on buying a few pinball machines in this hour that you've been with us, so I apologize for that. Oh, no, I've been doing other stuff the whole time. I bought and sold several machines while we've been chatting. I heard the disinterest. Anyway, the point is, I was wondering, we have done these brackets on final round, and we just recently completed one. So that means we're on to a new bracket. And I have a bunch of different ideas. Ed, we're going to let you pick the first game to be included in our bracket of what pinball machine features the best wizard mode. Hmm. uh you know i'm gonna go with walking dead i think horde now i gotta specify on the premium and le with the color changing gi it's quite a bit more immersive so i'm gonna say a walking dead premium or le horde which i know is not the final wizard mode i guess last man standing is considered the final but horde is like would you consider that a wizard mode i do sure i it's The way I see Walking Dead, it's not like it's got mini wizard modes in the final wizard mode. I think it's got three wizard modes. Yeah. So I think Horde is the greatest wizard mode in all of pinball. Okay. And I'm a wizard mode freak. I'm always trying to get there. I'm always chasing it. I haven't. And I've gotten close on Jurassic Park. And, of course, you can play it directly on Jurassic Park. So I have done that. And it's a cool mode. But Horde is so exhilarating and so immersive. And the sound effects and the way you can build up the action button to add a ball. I just think they nailed it with that one. I think Horde is the best. I think that's a good selection. So we're going to be taking other selections over the next few weeks and come up with this huge best wizard mode bracket. It doesn't have to be the final wizard mode. Like you say, some of the games have several wizard modes, and that certainly is an unbelievable one, too. And like you said, too, what fascinates you about games, especially ones you purchased, it's the code. The code's got to be great, and I agree. I've never gotten tired of horde mode.
    56:21
    Walking Dead is one that's been in my collection since it first came out, and it's a game that I play a lot because it's super hard. You can have a $900 million-plus game on Walking Dead and then have a $7 million game right after it. And I love that. That just keeps getting me to press start and trying to line everything up for Horde. That's all I do every time I play the game. And every time I make it to Horde, I find it's just as exhilarating. So that gets my vote. Ed, thank you very much. Fingers crossed. the borders open up, everyone's getting their vaccines, we can go to concerts again and see great performers like Barenaked Ladies. And even 30 years later, still entertaining so many different people, new audiences, new generations. And I really hope that you get to play in front of these audience where you guys absolutely shine and people can request songs like Reach Around.
    57:23
    Well, thank you guys. Thank you for having me. It's nice to talk to you again. And I just encourage everybody out there get whatever shot you can get wear masks socially distance the only way out of this is if we all work together and if you just got a skeptical wry look on your face and thought well that guy's a part of the sheeple um you are down an echo chamber of internet filth and listen to science, listen to the experts. They went to university. They don't just have Google. WebMD, WebMD.
    58:05
    Now, since we're all over the age of a certain age, anyway, a milestone age, let's just say, I actually got my first vaccine. I'm proud to announce that. I was so fucking excited. I walked in with my pants down. They said, no, no, no, we do it in the arm. And I was just like, oh, okay, just give me the shot. I don't care. But I'm glad to have got my shot anyway. So everyone get your shot. I cannot tell you the relief I felt after getting my first shot. I didn't realize the kind of low grade stress I'd been carrying around. Not because I didn't think if I got COVID that I was going to die, but I thought maybe I'd have some lung problems and I can't have lung problems. As a singer, no. If I can't sing anymore. So that was my biggest fear. And I didn't realize how much it was weighing on me until I noticed how relieved I was after getting the first shot. And I was like, oh, I've actually been really worried about this for a long time. Ed, some of us haven't cut our hair in 14, 15 months. We look like the worst midlife crisis person ever. It's brutal. Hey, I've been cutting my own like every two weeks. I've gotten pretty good at it. Well, that's your self-evaluation. Let's be honest. I mean, yeah, sure. No, it's great. Ed, again, thanks for coming on. I'm glad that we're talking to you here in the spring because in the winter, you were rolling the dice. And I've mentioned it before. Ed would send me these videos of him walking on his frozen lake and the lake maybe cracking or him jumping in the lake. And it's my worst phobia ever. and I'm just glad you're alive because you are fucking rolling the dice, man. You know what, Jeff? We are going to get you over that eventually. Never. When we get through this pandemic, I'm going to have you up here in the winter sometime and we're going to work through this. And not in a silly, like, you know, try and scare you way. In a, like, let you see the beauty of standing out on a frozen lake that you know is three feet thick, and to have that vast field of white all around you on all sides and the trees, like it really is stunning. The light is different out there. It's absolutely beautiful. I don't do it to be a stuntman. I did a few things to tease you, but I would love to get you over that fear because it is truly a glorious thing. Marty, my legs right now are like shaking. You know like when you watch a video of a guy getting kicked in the nuts and you feel it too? That's exactly what I'm going through right now. Ed just describing this. He'd send me the videos and I'd be like, oh, my heart would stop. I'm like, please stop.
    61:00
    Well, I'm going to take you right out into the center of the lake and I'm going to kick you in the nuts.
    61:07
    Sounds like a date. You won't be worried about the ice anymore. I'll be sitting on the ice to protect those Anyway Ed thank you very much It's always a pleasure Alright guys take care Ed Robertson always a great person to speak to But what did we learn Jeff? You know you can take out ads in Rolling Stone magazine Or ads on social media But if you want to promote a new album You come right here to Final Round That's how you spread the word That's how you get album sales Ed top notch well done with Am I going to fuck it up again? Detour to Force it's not detour de force detour de force i thought it was detour de force i gotta listen back i can't remember not detour i think that's what he was saying is that you're saying it's the tour and it's like no detour he's saying we're detouring apparently i have problems speaking so by the way he's canadian did he speak uh quote unquote canadian could you hear his accent you know a A little bit. Not as much as you. A little bit. I'm that thick. Yeah. Wow.
    62:14
    Arguably. I'm not going there. But he's the number one thing that we've learned. I have been a, I would say I'm an appreciator of Barenaked Ladies. Whenever I hear their songs, I love the joy that they have in their music. flip is in my fucking head i cannot get that song out of my head literally it is such a good song i'm i'm so pleased with it it is amazing when you've been writing songs for 30 years to still kind of come up with something that's relevant and quite honestly like you say very catchy and the trick and i know nothing because i've written zero songs in my lifetime i know shocker but that chorus, that catchy chorus, that thing that makes you sing along. Fuck, does he ever nail it with Flip, with the Fake Nudes album before that? And I mean, just great little hooks. That's the first thing I text him when I heard the new song is like, what a catchy hook. And he did it. I'm sure there's plenty of other songs on the album, unfortunately not Reach Around, but still the rest of the album, I'm sure it's going to be fine.
    63:20
    Imagine if they did that next album is released and it's actually called Reach Around. That would be kind of cool. I'd sue his fucking ass, I'll tell you that right now.
    63:31
    I better be nice. Wait a minute, he's got one of my pinball machines. I'm Ed, I wouldn't sue you. Of course, we're buddies, hey. And there's no way in hell I'm ever going to his cottage and stepping on that frozen water. No way ever. No way, no. Never. He's hell-bent to get me to go, but I just... It's not that I don't trust him, I do. And vehicles drive on this lake. So I, as chubby as I am, I don't weigh as much as a vehicle, but I'm still chicken shit. I just, like I said about my knees and my legs giving way, can't do it. Okay, I've admitted my fear. I'm human. I have flaws. What's your biggest fear?
    64:10
    I've got going outside without a belt on. Oh, my God. People would make fun. That used to be a fear of mine in high school. Actually, I'm joking, but it's true. No, I don't really have, not that fear that I can go, oh, it's this. I have a phobia, though. I guess you could call it a fear of having a sharp object rammed under my fingernails. Oh, my God. Yeah. It just, oh, my God. It just freaks me out. So people, don't do that when you meet me, please. Don't you remember that character in Lost? I've never seen Lost. Well, there was this one character, he was a soldier and he used to have to torture people and he had to do it on Lost and he put bamboo under the guy's fingernail. Oh, God, no.
    65:02
    That's awful. Oh, just, no, my skin crawls. What about a bad paper cut? Nah, you know, we could have a deep dive on paper cuts if we like. But the biggest thing about paper cuts is they kind of sting. And people look at you and go, this is a paper cut. It stings. I know the visual doesn't match the pain I'm feeling, but I can assure you this paper cut hurts. This is a good segue in case our sponsor of the week is Band-Aids. Oh, shit, it's not. Oh, well, we tried. So no point doing the sponsor right now since it's not Band-Aids. We should talk about the last two weeks. We talked about it right off the top that, my goodness, this is the Marty Robbins show. I'm just here to edit and do whatever your bidding is. You've had one hell of a two-week run, my friend. I have had a very, very significant two weeks because, obviously, I've bought a new house. Okay, dude, I didn't even know that. See, stupid, stupid. You should not have mentioned that. I was going to go on and on about, please buy a haggis fathom because Marty needs a place to live. And if you don't, he's going to be out in the streets. Now you just blew it. Oh, missed opportunity. Literally confirmed 15 minutes ago. Seriously? Seriously. 15 minutes ago, it was confirmed. We made an offer, but it needed to be subject to a building inspection because it's not a new house. And 15 minutes ago, it came back with the all clear. So it is official. And the best part of it, room for eight pinball machines. I have doubled my capacity. Is it the house you showed me? Yes. Holy shit. everybody there's a new taj mahal and it's in melbourne and martin robbins just bought it wow dude i'm so i as you can tell i do not know this is the first i'm hearing of it you showed me pictures you told me this is the one you wanted to get and i went really like that's that's available yeah i think i think the bit you like the most is that it actually has a self-contained unit underneath or flat or apartment whatever you guys call it with its own kitchen so when you and ann come over you've got that whole floor to yourself there's that but i mean let's be honest ann's gonna clue in sooner or later i'm gonna need a place to live she's gonna be like what am i doing wasting my life with you and i'm gonna get turfed marty i'm coming knocking on the door all right with rent in hand okay so yeah so that happened obviously what you're really referring to is the announcement of Haggis Pimble doing Fathom Revisited.
    67:48
    My goodness, Fathom. And then just to see the videos, which I believe, is it safe to say that you were kind of responsible for putting these teaser videos out and the video of the incredible cabinet? I don't even know what you call it, but just kind of the glow in the dark. I mean, that just must light up a room. Yeah, it does. I was involved in the creation of the videos and I guess the teaser campaign, if you will. we have been working on this for a very very very long time and COVID was obviously a terrible situation and it still is for a lot of people my heart obviously goes out to India we spoke about that with Ed but COVID allowed the team of I think there's six of us now to take the time to really revisit, if you will, Fathom, and also other titles. We really did do a lot of analysis around the machines that we wanted to make, and this was, I think, the first one for us to do, for a number of reasons. It's one of my absolute favourites. The art is spectacular, and we knew that we could really enhance it with the Mermaid Edition, and also it lends itself to new rules, which I've done. They're going to be selling 250 Mermaid editions. And in fact, I think you only have less than two weeks to purchase that. So get on board right now. And certainly if you're a Clan Haggis member, that is always a great thing, especially when it comes to future titles. But really, I'm seeing some people post on Facebook and social media that are making this purchase because who doesn't like these classic machines? And now with a new code, you're getting two machines in one. You can just play the classic Fathom that you and I both love, But now you've got all these modes. You kind of explained it a little bit with Dr. John on the pinball show. There's a lot to do and there's a lot more in that cab. Yeah, and look, I don't want to go too much into it. It's obviously on the pinball show. And you said it's the Marty show. It's not. It's the Damien show. This is Damien from Haggis. It's his business. It's his vision. It's his plan. We are just part of the team that's making that happen. But what I really wanted to do with the rule set was create a new experience whilst it's still being a nod to the past, to the roots of 1981. That's been an interesting challenge because obviously you'd want to just do so much. But we wanted it to be a link to the past, not just this completely new unfamiliar rule set, if that makes sense. It's a great team there at Haggis. I wasn't referring to the Marty Robbins show as what's going on at Haggis. I was referring to final round. No one's listening to Teolas. I mean, I know that from pinball profile. Nobody's listening. I mean, a few friends and family at best, but now they're listening in to hear this force, this guy who's now inside the pinball industry, and I couldn't be happier for you. Yeah, well, thank you very much. And thanks to everybody that's reached out as well. I've had just so many messages of support and messages of support from people that have bought the machine as well. So that does fill me with joy. Obviously, there's pressure now. I've got to deliver on a new rule set, but I think people will enjoy it. I know Dr. John mentioned that he's purchased number one, just as he did with the Keltz machine. And he texted me about the build of the machine. For those that haven't played a Haggis pinball machine or Keltz or maybe seen it at the show, even if you saw it at a show, let's be honest. That machine is way different than what you saw at Expo, at TPF. I played the new Playfield when I was there in Australia, and it is something to play. And I love that Ed, who was on earlier, was talking about, you know, a Stern machine plays different than a Jersey Jack, than a Gottlieb. And a Haggis, does it play different than everything else that you're used to? If you're only playing Sterns, yeah, it's going to feel different. But does it feel like pinball? It's pinball. It feels great. The shots are good. The build is spectacular. And you know what? I mean, code, you work on it, you do code, and code can always be updated. I mean, if you've got a good build, that's the basis of a good pinball machine, and code will always get there. You and I talked about this, my God, for years. Guardians of the Galaxy, when that game first came out, what a turd that was code-wise. It didn't matter. It shot great. Yeah. And you knew code would come, and it did come. so again with kelts with with haggis this classic edition with the mermaid edition with the classic for fathom i mean you're gonna have a lot of happy customers yeah and i've i've seen it so i've seen it i've played it i know what it is i know the value that it that it's gonna be i'm really keen for people to see it when uh it does actually get out there i have a feeling we're gonna hear more about these games and I know Damien's going to be doing some runs on some other podcasts so please make sure you listen to those because it's fascinating what they're doing at Haggis and really to me Haggis always made a good machine with Celts this put them in a whole new level as I've heard other people say Haggis is now a player and a force and I think it's a really good second machine for Haggis as well because they've obviously done Celts which is you know a single level play field even though ramps aren't necessarily a second level so it's a really good way for them to take everything that they learned through creating kelts into this with a layout that's already there everything has had to be re-engineered i guess we'll talk about the big topic that everyone's talking about and that's the price and i think that i think that people think that you know everything's just always been available and you just hit print and out comes a new machine with no development cost. We've been working on this for nearly a year. So that's because CAD drawings weren't available, artwork's not available, CAD diagrams for all the mechs, and you can't buy them. So everything has had to be re-engineered. So that's kind of where the price is. It's not like Hagos have said, you know, what's this maximum amount of money that we can, you know, sell this machine for? They literally said, what is a price that we can make this game for? I just wanted to clarify that. I have no concerns about the price because it is what it is, especially with the bill of materials and the cost of everything going up, especially since the pandemic. And, you know, there's the shipping to North America as well you have to consider, and there's a lot of factors. And it's just, I loved how Ed just kind of made fun of it. I figured out the bill of materials of this, and the parts would only cost this. Well, there's the factory, there's the employees, there's the labor, there's the shipping, there's this, this, this, marketing, Marty's new house. All those things are…
    74:46
    Yeah, look, there really is one thing that is a variable that just cannot be changed, and that is labor. Labor is the biggest cost in all of it, and that's just the amount of time it takes to make and assemble these things. It was a good reveal. It was really well done. I like the videos and got a lot of people talking about Haggis. But was it the best possible reveal? Sorry to say, Marty, there might have been another option. It's our sponsor of the week. Gender reveal parties. Is there anything more stupid? Pink and blue stereotypes, pyrotechnics, careless forest fires. Not to mention zero consideration for transgender or non-binary people. It has to be the dumbest fad since the Pet Rock, Pogs, Fidget Spinners and the Macarena. Agreed. I'm glad you didn't say Gangnam Style, by the way, or you and I would be having some words. But seriously, isn't a baby shower enough? I'm glad the spectacle that was a gender reveal party is gone. Or is it? Let your friends know what your next machine purchase is with the new Pimble Reveal Party. Why just post a picture of a game at your home? Or a selfie of a machine in the back of your van? Your friends will be guessing as they gather around for the big reveal. Is it a movie theme? Is it a classic rock band? Is it a remake? And with the Pinball Reveal Party, you get a special bonus with new in-box titles, like your very own Jack Cartwheel in your living room for a new JJP game, or Charlie Emery hiding in your closet to scare the shit out of you for your new spooky purchase. Hey, is that a new Stern? How did you know? Because Gary's over there drinking all my fucking vodka. It's the Pinball Reveal Party. Get yours today from Flippin' Out. so jeff we need to cover off the overrated pinball battle royale battle 2 boy people like these little battles i guess it's the only thing going on in pinball there's no competitions at least as far as ifpa is concerned uh so you know here at the marty robbins show aka final round 2.0 the um you know we're having fun on social media and we're basically letting you not only vote who's the winner but really pick the candidates and we'll get to our new one but we do have to wrap up like you said the most overrated who was it in the finals so it came down to the final four of tales of the rabian knights simpsons pinball party scared stiff and big bang bar so you haven't looked at the results so who do you think would have run out of those four i remember when we were talking two weeks ago and i heard that big bang bar advanced because of the likely few amount of people that have played that game and the very few number of games that were made and therefore the cost associated one of the big factors for me for most overrated is how much it resells for and based on that and really there's not a lot there i mean it's a fine game there's nothing wrong with it balls get stuck a lot on that left tube i'm gonna go big bang bar yeah well it came down to simpsons pinball party and big bang bar in the final and big bang bar won with 53 of the votes So it was actually quite close. Yeah, it's such a love-hate for Simpsons Pinball. I really don't know anybody lukewarm. I know people that absolutely love it, myself included, and people that despise that game. And it goes for a lot of money. So again, the same qualification I was looking for is it's not worth that much. Well, to me it is, and it never leaves my home. I added a colored DMD to it. Yeah, I get the love for it. I'm on the other side. I just do not enjoy playing it at all. Well, I mean, I said I think Lord of the Rings is overrated. People thought I had two heads. It's kind of like what you were saying about Elvira House of Horrors earlier. I don't despise the game at all. I think it is a good game. I just don't think it's for me. And Lord of the Rings, I think, is a fun, fun, fun game way ahead of its time. I just think it's not the greatest game ever. But is it one of the top 10? Yeah. So, you know, it's hard for me to say it's overrated. It's not the most overrated. I think it's overrated. It's not the most overrated, but it's, to me, not the greatest game ever. And you mentioned it. Metallica, I think that's the best stirring game ever. Walking Dead is close second. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, one-two, punch right there. So we kind of hinted with Ed kind of our new battle royale that we're going to do. And I think we can probably do 16. I don't know if we need to do 32. Definitely we're not doing 64. But we're looking for input from you, our fine listeners here. And I want to know what the best wizard mode is. Ed said he liked Horrid on Walking Dead. Can't disagree with that. Now, there are other wizard modes. You would say maybe Bloodbath. You would say Last Man Standing. So we'll definitely include that, and we're going to look at some of the people that give us feedback over the next two weeks on our social media, which includes Facebook. We have a Facebook group there we hope you can join. We're on Instagram, FinalRoundPinball. We're on Twitter, FinalRoundPin. And, of course, you can always email us, FinalRoundPinball at gmail.com. So we're looking for your submissions to let us know what you think is the best wizard mode, and we'll whittle that down. I like Ed's selection. Do you have a selection? I mean, maybe it's a game you've owned. Is there something that stands out for you for best wizard mode?
    79:57
    No. No, I think the challenge is going to be this. It's like, how many wizard modes have I got to? So I will say that, obviously, Iron Throne is a great wizard mode, just because I got it twice in one game. In one ball. Yeah, I did. That was actually a good guess. So I'm going to let the listeners dictate the wizard modes this time. And I will comment on them, but I don't want to add mine. I do have one that I do quite like, but let other people take the slots first. Does it rhyme with live mirror mission? I've never been to five-year mission to know. I'm sure it's a great wizard mode. But are we going to count mini wizard modes? Yes, yes, I think we should. Because again, you're right. Again, I talked about that Simpsons pinball party. I've never been to the wizard mode. I can't complete it. I've been to the mini wizard modes, which are alien invasion, let's say, and that's a lot of fun. I wouldn't put that in my category, but best wizard mode? For me, I'll throw in a vote. I'm not afraid to put my thoughts out there, unlike some people I know. And again, I never saw it until the pandemic. But I am still in love and a renewed love for ACDC because of the Encore Wizard Mode. It's spectacular and it took me years to finally see it. But what a payoff. What a huge payoff. You know, we talked about Metallica being one of the greatest games. End of the Line is huge, but even before that, Crank It Up, great. Yeah, so you would call Crank It Up a mini Wizard Mode? This is just for our listeners when they're thinking about what they're going to nominate, whether that's the level that you would go to that says, well, that's a mini wizard mode. I'd like some feedback on that. I don't know because in the original code, I would have definitely considered Crank It Up a mini wizard mode. But because they've reduced the number of shots to start Crank It Up, I would say it's not a wizard mode. How do you feel? Yeah, I wouldn't say that's a wizard mode. Okay. I'm curious to see. I'm sure there are 16 out there, and we do need your feedback too because obviously Marty's afraid to put his opinion down here.
    82:04
    I mean, ask the next time you do Melbourne Silver Ball because I was watching you last weekend. You were at Oz Erick's. Hey, Erick. And you were playing Tron. And your first game, you were on Sea of Simulation, and I think you later on got pretty close to Portal. That's another fun one. Yeah, I was a few shots away from Portal, which was disappointing. I've never been to Portal, believe it or not. So that's just because Tron is such a brutal game. But yeah, I'd love to get there so I could then vote for it. This could be good research for you, Marty, because I know that the new Haggis 2.0 Mermaid Edition will have a wizard mode. You've got modes, basically. Yeah. And I'm sure you've already got it all plotted out, but what are the things that people like in wizard modes? What I love about, and again, it's not a wizard mode, but what I love about Crank It Up in Metallica, unlike other wizard modes, is it's single ball and it's huge risk and reward. When are you going to cash it out? I played an ICR. I've got to tell you about this. I played an ICR competition. I have to tell you because you didn't ask me what's going on the last two weeks and I felt, you know. No, I didn't ask for a reason, obviously. Nothing compares to obviously what you've done. I mean, saved a small baby from a burning house, but that doesn't matter against what you did with Haggis. It doesn't matter. I played an ICR match against an incredible player, a 15-year-old kid, and there's nothing more humiliating than getting smoked by kids, which happens all the time because they're so damn good, especially when it comes to rules knowledge. Shout out to South Carolina's Nate Grant, who I've never met. Him and his dad can, I guess, operate a bunch of games in and around, including Bang Back Cafe. Well, we figured out what common games we had, and it came down to ACDC Pro. So we kind of alternate balls. On his first ball, he had like $1.5 million. I'm like, okay, my first ball, $30 million. Feeling pretty good, Marty. his second ball 271 million he hit three 3x jackpots like this kid was so dialed into the bell just bing bing bing bing non-stop in multi-ball waited till it was 3x then he completed his lanes to get the cannon ready boom 82 million 82 like just i was like oh my so then i had to play i got close like 180 but still compared to 270 respectable that was some ball too so i still got a ball left i think he kind of fumbled ball three i got to 206 and lost 206 million losers yeah i got lucky the next two games but my god i mean this kid is so good and uh again just the risk reward there right yeah absolutely classic classic risk reward rule set and the advantage I think was, even though I lost the first game, I had the advantage because I got to see what he put up. So there's no point in me just starting a multi-ball and just kind of grinding. I have to do what he does. I have to go 3x jackpot. And obviously he did not. But my God, I love that kind of competition. And ICR has been giving it to me. I know Raymond Davidson just did a Do or Die podcast of his experience up at District 82. And we're seeing a lot of competitions kind of happen. I guess in Melbourne there, there's been a few. I know Ryan C's been doing some. Yeah, I mean, the Bayside Pinball Club is back operating. Ryan's got his one at Moondog Brewery as well. So, yeah, it's all happening. I ask because later on this year, are you going to be running your tournament again? I don't know. And thank you, Zach, for reaching out to me. I still don't know. But, I mean, look, we're talking December. It's now just clocked May. We've still got some time to work it out. I would hope in the next four weeks, I will be able to get a clear view through my crystal ball as to what December is going to look like. Are the factors, the IFPA, your move, your work with Haggis, is it all of those things? No, and none of that actually matters. So I would still put the tournament on even if there was no IFPA sanctioning. It would really depend on whether this show itself, which is flip out whether that goes ahead. Yeah, I'm curious because here in Canada, we're still in a lockdown for another few weeks. Borders are closed, even within the province too. You can't drive. I'm in Ontario. I can't drive to Manitoba to the west. I can't drive to Quebec to the east. I certainly can't cross the US border. Did you hear all those Americans just cheer right there? Fuck them. Hey, I'm trying to get there.
    86:36
    Anyway, I don't know when that'll change. You know, the federal government here, they keep extending the border closings by four weeks, by four weeks, by four weeks. They've done that for 14 months. I'm hoping, as I see things open up in the States and vaccines happening, yes, yay, I got my first one. And please, everybody, get yours. I mean, like Ed says, trust the science. Trust the science. More people are getting them in the States, so I don't know what's going to happen as far as will this open up, maybe August, maybe September. There's a couple of events I'm looking at. I'm looking at Pinball at the Zoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan. It's in September. And then there's also Klee Pin in Cleveland, just outside Cleveland, Independence, Ohio. Those are big. And then I'm planning to go to Florida for a couple of weeks. There's Free Play Florida. There's the World Championships if those happen. Of course, Expo in October.
    87:27
    People are jonesing like me for pinball. So you might get a lot of people knocking on the door for your Melbourne Silver Bowl. Yeah, I would say so. The good thing is that even the local monthly tournaments are getting really good numbers at the moment, like stronger numbers than they've ever had. So it's a sign, and with a lot of new people as well. So it's a sign that people are really wanting to get out and play competitive pinball. So it's a good sign. I think it's not only competitive pinball, but how many machines that have come out in the last 14, 15 months have you played? How many of these new titles? I still haven't flipped Rick and Morty, and I'm dying to flip that. I haven't played Heist. I want to play that. I still haven't played Hot Wheels, and I still haven't played Led Zeppelin. I believe if it wasn't last week, maybe the week before, our Led Zeppelin pros arrived in the country. So I'm looking forward to going on location at Pixel Alley and having a play of that. Fingers crossed. I get my new play field this week, so we'll see. I'll give you the update on how that works, but I know a couple of others that got their play fields too. So, yeah, I haven't played that game in six, seven weeks. There's been like three code updates I haven't even seen. So I'm excited watching the stream. So I'll be just as excited to flip myself. But I think that's enough for one fortnight, don't you? Absolutely. Thank you, everybody, for listening again. Thanks again for your support to me directly and indirectly to Jeff. As in, Jeff, can you please tell Marty I'm happy? Yeah, I get it. exactly that thanks very much ed robertson always a pleasure to talk to you and check out flip on the new bare naked ladies album detour de force you said it best marty all right we'll talk to you in a couple weeks thanks very much again check us out on facebook we're also on twitter final round pin so instagram is final round pinball podcast and email us at finalrampinball at gmail.com. You sure? I'm looking at it right now.
    89:29
    No wonder no one talks to us. I saw an email. Oh, my God, who was it? It was our number one fan, Joe Fox. He sent something on Instagram, and I look at it, and I'm like, that was sent in January. And so I apologize. Say, Joe, thanks very much. I'm like, I'm just seeing this for the first time, And he sent us like a home brew, not pinball machine, but like a home brewery kind of a microbrewer, I guess you would call it, of a beer called Reach Around. Oh, no way. Missed opportunity. Yeah. Damn it. Oh, well. We should give our mailing addresses because we're never going to see this social media stuff.
    90:09
    All right. That's enough. Thanks a lot. Thanks, everyone. Bye now.
    90:18
    Take a little trip See another side of the same ship This is the church This is the steeple Turn up the lights See all my people