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Down the Pinball Rabbit Hole with IFPA President Josh Sharpe (Ep.61)

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·57m 40s·analyzed·Jul 26, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

IFPA President Sharpe on tournament return, aging player base, and competitive pinball fundamentals.

Summary

Josh Sharpe, IFPA president, discusses the return of tournament pinball sanctioning after a 16-month hiatus (March 2020–July 2021), addressing the massive backlog of tournament approvals and results processing. He reflects on competitive pinball's aging demographic, the challenge of attracting younger players (18–29 age bracket disappointing despite Stern Army efforts), the prestige vs. size distinction for major tournaments, and the competitive fundamentals that matter most—recovery skills, nudging technique, and situational play rather than encyclopedic rule knowledge.

Key Claims

  • IFPA tournament participation grew from 3,500 events (92,000 attendance) in 2016 to 7,600 events (174,000 attendance) in 2019—more than doubled.

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe, citing historical IFPA data directly from backend systems

  • There are currently 1,571 tournaments with results waiting for processing in the IFPA queue.

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe stating current backlog metrics

  • The IFPA World Championship entry fee is $250.

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe, in response to discussion about higher-fee tournaments

  • Competitive pinball's player base has aged significantly—shifting from 25–35 age group (10 years ago) to 35–40 today, with depressingly low representation in the 18–29 bracket despite five years of Stern Army barcade initiatives.

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe, citing IFPA demographic analysis and stats sent to Chicago Gaming and Stern

  • The Museum of Pinball closed less than a week before this podcast recording.

    high confidence · Podcast host referencing recent news; Josh does not directly confirm

  • IFPA World Championships were held at a working farm in London with livestock accessible between rounds (IFPA 6).

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe recounting historical tournament venue

Notable Quotes

  • “There's one guy in a dungeon up there in Canada that's approving... you're 489th in the queue.”

    Podcast host (referencing Josh's explanation of Adam Becker's role) @ ~10:00 — Illustrates the bottleneck in IFPA tournament approval infrastructure; Adam Becker is IFPA's sole volunteer tournament approver

  • “We had 3,500 events that year with total attendance of like 92,000 in 2019 it was 7,600 events with 174,000 of participation that's a lot like it's more than doubled”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~08:30 — Quantifies explosive growth of IFPA tournament infrastructure pre-pandemic

  • “I'd pay a thousand dollars for Pinbird because it would be the cheapest part of my trip you know between airfare and ubering and hotel and whatever”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~25:00 — Highlights how travel costs dwarf tournament entry fees for out-of-area players, reframing value proposition of high-stakes events

  • “I feel like nudging, if you can get somebody that's an aspiring player that wants to play competitive, I feel like that's the number one skill right there that will help you.”

    Podcast host, paraphrasing Josh's view @ ~55:00 — Articulates fundamental competitive skill hierarchy: nudging/recovery > rule knowledge for new tournament players

  • “You see they had me run some stats... there is very clearly a line of people that found pinball in that 90s boom... the demographic that is into competitive pinball is moving with age... I was a little disappointed... 18 to 29 was just way lower than I thought like depressingly lower than I thought”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~58:00 — Direct evidence of competitive pinball's aging crisis and failure of youth recruitment efforts despite Stern Army initiatives

  • “The big problem there is who going to maintain the game”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~65:00 — Identifies the core logistical barrier to on-campus pinball expansion—maintenance infrastructure, not just hardware donation

  • “esports is much easier to get into. To be able to get a PlayStation, a PC, or an Xbox in your room is a lot easier than this. It's not easy to get this regardless.”

Entities

Josh SharpepersonAdam BeckerpersonZach SharpepersonLyman SheetspersonCarl D'AngelopersonBob MatthewspersonJim Belsitoperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Esports has outpaced pinball in youth adoption despite similar competitive appeal. Barrier to entry (cost, space, maintenance) is significantly higher for pinball than digital platforms.

    medium · Podcast host: 'esports is much easier to get into... To be able to get a PlayStation, a PC, or an Xbox in your room is a lot easier than this'

  • ?

    community_signal: IFPA tournament processing backlog is severe: 1,571 tournaments awaiting results processing, with new event submissions continuously arriving. Single unpaid volunteer (Adam Becker) managing entire approval pipeline.

    high · Josh Sharpe: '1,571 tournaments waiting on results right now... where it just gets crazy' and 'one guy in a dungeon up there in Canada that's approving'

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern Pinball has invested in Stern Army campaign (5+ years) to place machines in barcades and recruit younger tournament players. Results underwhelming; strategy not yielding expected youth engagement.

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'we've done a lot of work with stern on the stern army campaign... trying to get you know these barcades like getting events in these barcades to try to lure new people'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Fundamental competitive pinball skill hierarchy: nudging/recovery and situational play rank above encyclopedic rule knowledge. Players can learn rule exploitation during tournament play; mechanical recovery skills are non-negotiable.

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'I feel like nudging, if you can get somebody that's an aspiring player that wants to play competitive, I feel like that's the number one skill right there'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.173

0:00
All right, on this episode of the podcast, we have Josh Sharp, the president of the IFPA, and he comes on here talking about tournament pinball now that we're having sanctions come back. We also talk about some things in the past, and we kind of talk about some other pinball related things, because of course, it's a pinball podcast. But I had a really fun conversation with him. He's always fun to talk to. So without further ado, Josh Sharp.
0:30
All right. Well, we're on, Josh. Welcome. You finally made it on after about a year of trying to get you on. My wife let me out of the basement. Yeah, I can tell. It seems that you're not at, what is it, IFPA headquarters. I mean, it's kind of like IFPA-lite headquarters. I mean, I offered you a replacement bottom part of your Oklahoma trophy. Would you like a top? We got those here. I had a feeling that you might actually bring that up so even though I didn't have it anywhere I still brought it right here just as a reminder but I tell you I love this thing amateur hour man I'm not going to lie I love this thing like everybody's like there were some people that contacted me they're saying why are you giving Josh Sharp so much shit like it's an honest mistake I forgot that I had previously offered to send you a corrective one when I contacted you the second time I saw it on one of your shows and I was like fuck I offered to send someone that fixed it because our art guy will run extras every year or whatever just as part of their setup but I was like I'll ask him again well the good thing is you did send the fix to it I just loved the original so damn much I was not going to fix it so technically I'm like the two and a half time state champion now because I got three plaques so I feel pretty accomplished. I feel no more guilt over our amateur hour. No, I wouldn't. That's probably I don't know. Maybe if pinball keeps getting bigger, I might put that up on eBay. That might be able to afford me some more pinball machines. That's how you think about sanctioning your tournament with IFPA. Check out their shoddy handiwork here.
2:16

Podcast host @ ~68:00 — Explains why esports has outpaced pinball in youth adoption despite similar competitive appeal

Bowen Kerins
person
Elwin Veederperson
Colin McAlpineperson
Daniele (player)person
Yorian (player)person
IFPAorganization
Stern Armyorganization
Stern Pinballcompany
Chicago Gamingcompany
Museum of Pinballlocation
Papa World Championshipsevent
Louisville Arcade Expoevent
Pinball at the Zooevent

market_signal: Prestige and participation size of major tournaments are decoupling. Small, elite formats (e.g., 64-player IFPA World Championship) can maintain prestige despite larger tournaments existing. Historical tournaments (Pinberg, early Papa) succeeded in modest venues; venue scale does not determine tournament importance.

medium · Josh Sharpe: 'I think there's a difference between a big tournament, you know, participation-wise, and, I guess, a prestigious tournament' and recounting IFPA 6 on working farm with livestock

  • ?

    event_signal: Museum of Pinball closure (less than one week before this episode) disrupts Pin Clash/Open tournament and other major events. Reflects broader venue instability for large tournaments post-pandemic.

    high · Podcast host: 'it was just less than a week ago now we found out that the museum of pinball is no more... that's where a major tournament's at with the open'

  • $

    market_signal: Competitive pinball player demographic has aged significantly with minimal youth recruitment success. 10 years ago: 25–35 age group; today: 35–40 age group. 18–29 bracket 'depressingly lower than expected' despite five years of Stern Army barcade initiatives.

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'I was a little disappointed... 18 to 29 was just way lower than I thought like depressingly lower than I thought... We've been doing this for like five years'

  • ?

    technology_signal: On-campus pinball expansion faces critical maintenance barrier. Hardware donation feasible, but ongoing machine maintenance logistics prevent college rollout despite potential player base access.

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'The big problem there is who going to maintain the game... the logistics of everything is just... Don't work, man'

    • Hey, it happens. It happens. The thing is, though, IFPA's back, though, right? We're finally here after what has it been about 16 18 months march 17th man so yeah three yeah 16 16 months something like that that's yeah yeah just way too long but obviously i mean we don't have to get into it we all know why that was but the important thing is is it's back and you're obviously you know we talked about this off podcast you haven't lost any of your hair which is perfect it's whiter I'm getting closer there with you spending more time with my daughter the last 16 months isn't it the thing though that's the crazy part about kids man you love them so damn much and then when you have something like this happen you're around them 24 hours a day you're like okay I brought you into this world I'm dealing with it now we're going to figure it out from here I feel like 20 years from now it'll be a good memory of time like that year we spent every day together so yeah yeah at some point it'll be a positive not yet not yet that day isn't today but it makes it to where every day is like a staycation at least at first and then that staycation lasted about a year and it was no longer because it's one of those things it's not being a novelty after a year 14 where does the novelty yet i don't know like it scares me every time we go on vacation or we go to one of these pinball trips, I just know that it's going to be great the first like four days, five days, but you know how to go. It goes when you're around the same people, you start to get on each other's nerves. Your wife has taken, you know, your, your clothes that's missing. She's taking the covers. Maybe I'm just complaining about my, my wife too much, but a lot of similarities, man. A lot of similarities. Oh yeah. So basically take that five times, whatever it was that we were all at home. So there you go without the pinball tournament. So at least we're back. That's the important part. And so now, obviously, Adam Becker is the one that is approving all the tournaments, correct? Yeah. So then he's making his pay right now. Yeah, he's really. His $0 an hour, he's now amortizing over many more events per day. Yeah, it's funny because I always have people contact me, at least locally, that are putting in tournaments. And they're like, why is this not coming up immediately? Why is yours getting approved? Mine's not approved yet. And I'm, I tell them, I'm like, it's just, there's one guy in a dungeon up there in Canada. That's approving. I'm like, it'll take a little bit of time. Some dude sent an email, you know, following up to make sure we got it. And, and those are the, I get a lot of those. And, and I wrote him back and explained that, you know, a, I, cause I can pull open, you know, our backend and see that like, you know, search the director's name. And it's like, Oh, there it is. It's like, it's in the queue. Don't worry. you're 489th in the queue and he wrote back as soon as I hit send in my email I was talking with somebody else in my league and they explained to me I'm so sorry to even have asked blah blah blah and it's like yeah man there's a lot of I'm at a computer I forget how many I don't think people realize how many tournaments actually get put on and the actual amount of people that participate in tournaments it's much higher I believe than what people realize So, like, even Adam, when was, so Adam was an idiot in 2016 when we were, we had the Papa World Championships and then the IFPA World Championships back to back in Pittsburgh, which is a memory I'll never forget. It was a great week. and I think at some point during Papa was done and then we were running IFPA and and Adam was just bullshitting with me and Zach and was like hey man you know if you guys ever need any help because I was like approving some like in between IFPA rounds I was approving submissions because any free moment I was just like approve stuff to get my email count down and whatever he's like I'm happy to help you know I kind of have a pretty cushy job that like I can probably get most of it done during the day and it was like oh yeah man yeah you're hired whatever back then 2016 we had 3,500 events that year with total attendance of like 92,000 in 2019 it was 7,600 events with 174,000 of participation that's a lot like it's more than doubled and I you know there's I'm sure there's moments you got to have Adam on maybe he'll be candid with you about how close he's been to shoving it back i can't imagine he all of a sudden just decides to say f it and he doesn't tell anybody i'm out bro see ya it's like oh my gosh so anybody out there that is considering running tournaments keep that in mind it's it there is a considerable queue and especially right now i'm sure everybody's rushing to put up tournaments now and so i'm sure there's always is going to be a slight backlog that occurs naturally. And, I mean, it'll all get done. I mean, there's not going to be any instance where somebody puts one out and it just gets overlooked. Right now, fortunately, Adam hasn't had to deal with any results approvals, so it's all been calendar submissions. But, like, those calendar submissions shift, and we have 1,571 tournaments waiting on results right now. So at some point, it's like the cadence of people submitting new events doesn't stop but then this avalanche of like results come through and that's where like you know adam won't tell me not to talk to him that's where it just gets crazy well that's why i wonder is there people back from march still waiting to put in results i mean is that even worse people putting in results the most the thing the things that people like leagues especially right because tournaments are just they happen or they don't happen right leagues or seasons that last whatever some amount of time so a bunch of leagues decided to like hey we were through three out of seven sessions can we just submit our results from three sessions that through march of 2020 yeah and it was like sure yeah i'll change your end date to when was the last date of your last session you were able to play go in edit their tournament date then they can submit but there's been a bunch that are like, we're picking up, we have session four, August 7th. And it's like, okay, well, what's your new end date? And it's like, it's November 11th. And it's like, okay, so update their event, and now it's back to like an in-progress league. Really? Well, I didn't even consider that. I just figured some people would just go ahead and just say, okay. And others don't. Like our league just dumped the season. Our 2020 season will just. I think we were two sessions in because we started in January and we did not do March. and it was like we were talking about picking it up now but our season's normally january to july and it's like now we're starting in august and and we we end to avoid all the holidays at the tail end of the year and it's like we're just punting right right like that never happened yeah i think that's basically all anybody can really do right now but hey just like we're talking about it's great that tournament pinball is coming back but of course i'd be remiss not to mentioned that obviously it was just less than a week ago now we found out that the museum of pinball is no more which obviously that's where a major tournament's at with the open that's ran by carl d'angelo and bob matthews and jim belcido and lots of other people all around there so seeing kind of what's happening there and then also with what's happened with pinberg and then of course papa you're seeing these large tournaments that are either folding or InDesk obviously or the Open hasn't folded. They're still looking around, so it's still good to go. But obviously there's a little bit of upheaval and a little bit of changing of the landscape. I mean, what are your thoughts on that moving forward in terms of tournament pinball coming back and making sure that there's still enough big tournaments around to be considered majors moving forward? I think there's a difference between a big tournament, you know, participation-wise, and, I guess, a prestigious tournament. Right. Like, the whatever, the closed world championship we run is 64 players. There's many events around the world that are more than 64 players. But what it means to qualify for ours means something in the world. And I think, like, I have played before Papa came back in 2004,
    10:57
    the team, you know, Kevin and his team were running the old, It's confusing. They were running Pinberg, which is what they called their version of Papa from 99 to 03 before they took over the name. Like, we were playing in a hotel conference room. That was, like, you know, probably smaller than your setup over there. It was, like, 20 games down one wall, and that was it. But the importance of that event and the high-caliber players that showed up, like, that was the shit, man. Like that was the tournament to win. So I think, you know, Carl and Jim and Bob, like they'll figure out a solution. And, I mean, we have held IFPA in some weird-ass places. We held it on like a working farm in London that you literally could go like play with livestock in between rounds if you want. I've heard about that. What tournament was that? Because I've heard this mentioned. That was IFPA 6 in London. Really? So this is a world championship event. that is badass pinball has come a long ways although now it's kind of circled back to where you almost have to go back to that for the nostalgia right? I think in terms of competitive pinball if you get a group of the best players in the world and put them anywhere with a game in it, it's on so you know was the Pinberg stage nice? of course it was nice, it was unbelievable you know it's going to be really hard to replicate that because of the resources you need to do that but of course yeah you know i've joked when uh with i've joked with the papa guys a bunch like hey man you just let me know what the dates are and i'll reserve at the best western down the street where you guys used to hold this much smaller event like let's take it back to basics man i'll be there raise the entry fee let's get it let's get saucy let's go yeah and i mean i think you actually so what you just said right there, it's pretty interesting because I've had this conversation with a few other players that are world-class, much better than myself, that have actually won Tenberg events or other events. And one of the things about it that we've been talking back and forth about is we were wondering if there's potential out there for higher caliber tournaments in terms of either payouts, which would eventually mean that your entry fee has to be much higher than what we're used to. And I remember there was actually a conversation about this, I believe over on Tilt Forums. It was probably well over a year ago now to where people were trying to figure out what would the value be to get somebody to travel for. And so, I mean, what are your thoughts on potentially seeing tournaments out there that could be $250 entry fee or even $500 entry fee? I mean, our world championship is $250. And I think when you take into consideration all the travel costs associated with going i mean i told the papa crew like i'd pay a thousand dollars for pinbird because it would be the cheapest part of my trip you know between airfare and ubering and hotel and whatever like i i'm less concerned about that i think the local people are the people that are usually the vocal like what the fuck like that's so much money it's like yeah because you're sleeping in your house and you're like going home for meals so it's like it literally feels like $500 out of your pocket. And for me, it's like, and for most other people, it a vacation So it a vacation where I can have a good weekend and pay for it through my play which is you know most other vacations when i go to disney i have no opportunity to pay for that trip right there's no tournaments going off the credit card over and over again yeah but i think the uh you know the high stakes big prize pools you know the problem there is you need a bunch of people that aren't going to win to support that prize pool right so at some point like running the power 100 you know that i do and then it's only it's 100 bucks and you are the entry fee worked in a way where you could you could pay as much as 500 if you wanted to side pot bet up to 500 bucks and it's like well fuck man i don't want to do that because it's like there's ellen and there's raymond and it's like yeah man that you know it's not about like man if i just set up an event with a thousand dollars ahead it'd be huge and it's like would it because you got to be willing to lose it in order to to do it and the number of players like i'd be in but the number of players that i think would be into it you just as you raise the entry fee you get a smaller and smaller group that's like yeah i'm probably gonna lose and i don't really want to lose that much money yeah one of the formats that i think would go over really well would be almost like a heads up format where maybe you just have 16 people show up or 24 people, whatever you want to have. But if it's just heads up, whether it's five games, seven, or even go all the way up to nine, but I feel like something like that could potentially be a pretty big event with a larger fee. Cause I kind of think of it almost like world series of poker type, you know, to where you have different, different events and everything. So I almost feel like I always thought that some of these large stern pro circuit events would do well if they would hold something like that the day before where it's just like maybe it's an invite only for the players that are ranked a certain amount or maybe it's just open season but again who's like who's subsidizing it right if it's coming out of the players pockets i mean at some point you're probably you probably have some world class i mean people were coming to expo and avoiding my house for the power 100 because it was like, yeah, man, I mean, like, that sounds fun and all, but I like, I don't want to just throw out a hundred bucks because their confidence level against, you know, other people is just. Yeah. And see, that's like for me personally, cause I come from a baseball background. So the reason why I like to play pinball is it is fun, but it's competitive too. Like I love the competitive element for me that makes it even more fun because you can only, you can only go so far playing by yourself on a pin and then trying for a high score. Eventually you want to test yourself against other players that are either just as good or, quite frankly, better than you. Like, I want to be the worst one in the room and see, you know, how much better I can get. That's how I grew up, man. Man, after I stopped playing in juniors events in 95, like, I didn't win anything kind of important for, like, until, oh, I think I won Pinball at the Zoo in 01. It was, like, those six years of just getting my ass just pounded by Lyman and Elwin and all those guys. and it's like you know they would look at the bracket it's like oh nice i got a sharp brother time to like just kill him oh yeah i it's so funny story i kind of getting off the beat and i'll bring us back around i uh and of course i i was giving you shit before down in florida about the uh power 100 and all that because i want in on that and i just tanked myself and so luckily now it took a pandemic but now i have 18 months that just kind of wiped away from there but yeah because i would love to play in that tournament and just have a chance but funny story back with florida it was during i think it was during finals i won't name the name but we were playing and there was another game going on and somebody had made a comeback right well this player that was watching it it would directly affect whose group they were in and not in and so what it did it pulled that player they were visibly mad and i could hear him cussing and they're right next to me and i realized right off the bat they were mad because they weren't coming into my group the dead money group yeah exactly exactly so i was like huh yeah i was like i i got some work to do you know because obviously we all want to be that type of player that's like okay you know we're the shit everybody's going to avoid us but i realize i i can self-admit i realize i still have a ways to go to catch up to people. I mean, yeah, it's great being a local champion, whatever you want to say, but I thoroughly enjoy going out to these national level events and playing against competition like that because I feel like you're always learning something. Like, even something that you take as an absolute, like, this is how you play this game because I've seen a tutorial on YouTube or I've watched other people play it, and then you see one of these young kids come around and they do something totally different on a rule set that's existed for years now, and you just, you kind of see something different. You're like, huh, okay, that's the way I do it. So I think that's the most exciting part about tournaments coming back. I think a lot of us have been able to sit back and just either play a lot or be able to watch a lot of video, consume a lot of content, kind of see, you know, what's going on from there. For me, the rush has always been like, and I play a lot of golf. It's like just the competitiveness of needing to perform at a very specific time, like the anxiety that comes with that and the adrenaline management that comes with that like that's my jam man like i love i mean that's the biggest part of what i miss over the last year and a half like like i turned all my extra balls on at home and did some carl wizard mode chasing and and over over the last year like zach and i both got through what we needed to in our games and that was fun and it was a unique challenge for the time but like i'd way rather have zach come over and let's just play a best of five and like, I don't need a billion on Walking Dead. I need 35 million, but I need it right now on this last ball and I'm under 2 million. What do you do? Like, go. Yeah. That situational play, man, is what it's all about. Yeah, and you actually had one of the most unique situational play situations that happened, and this happened at the Louisville Arcade Expo in 2014. Oh, is this the slide? Yeah, on a little game called Congo. Yeah. And you had one of the most craziest slide saves. It's not one of the most. De-bounce management, man. Oh, my gosh. So for those that have no idea what I'm talking about, just look up on, I think it's on pinballvideos.com. And you can find Josh Sharp. It's under Congo for 2014. And it was, I will just go ahead and say it's the most incredible save in pinball I've seen. I know some people see, I think it was Bowen's save on Adam's family up at Papa. But this is just insane. You took the damn pen, clear out a camera view nearly, held on to the ball. I put it back. Yeah, then you adjusted the camera. Always important for the kids, man. Yeah. So what was the adrenaline spike there? I mean, because it's an important game. You're saving the ball, and you do something like that, and you survive it. I mean, I don't know if you, like, subtle movement. I mean, it's just debounce work, right? Like the tilt, the tilt bob will only register, it'll register a warning, whether you barely touch the ring, or it fucking, you know, bashes around in there for some length of time. So if you're going to use I think, I don't know what podcast Colin McAlpine was talking about it where, you know, through nudging you can add balls in play and especially in competitive pinball where there's no extras. It's like, if you turn a three ball game into a four ball game, like, that's insane. You know, think about like, I don't know, you're like you're playing a baseball game. And it's like, hey, a home team, you guys get 12 innings today. Yeah, yeah, we do. This is the jam. Like, so, you know, being able and those Williams games are great. You know, you can do it on a lot of Williams games, depending on the programmer, but like, the debounce there gives a lot of room for it to go. one warning let me make sure that's clear before i give the second warning let me make sure that is clear before i give you know the tilt that that you can be aggressive at no warnings and ultimately be in a situation where like if i tilt it's fine like it's because you're evaluating like how much bonus would i have lost i don't like i think it was pretty early on in the ball that like you know, $10 million in bonus. It's like if I had, you know, $350 million waiting for me in bonus, you know, at that point I'm playing with fingertips and you're not going to see me slide anything anywhere. Right. So you're kind of managing that situation. What do you think then? Because definitely in this past year, there's actually been a lot more people entering pinball in terms of they're looking at playing in tournaments, they've gotten into the hobby, they're buying a lot more. What would you say for aspiring players that they're, I think a lot of people think you have to have just an encyclopedic-type knowledge of the rules, when I believe that in competition you really don't need to know that. You just need to know the basics. You need to know what to do with the basics. I like your 3M approach, man. It's pretty good. I wouldn't put it on a T-shirt, but I'd talk about it. Hey, we need to put it on a T-shirt. That's a great idea now.
    23:48
    But wouldn't you? That's how I feel. I haven't played anything new. I got an Avenger, so I know how to play that now. but if I had to go play a Zeppelin or turtles, like, and this is, I mean, growing up in the nineties, the big tournaments would always be the latest game that just came out. You would be learning what to do in the qualifying line, talking to other players. It's like, Hey man, what'd you learn? And it's like, I, you know, I learned if you do this and then do this, it'll stack. And it's like, Oh my God, really? Okay. I'll start doing that. Like that was part of the fun and enjoyment. Like I usually, it was a, it was a fun weekend when by the end, Zach and I would be like, all right, I know how to play that game now for future tournaments because I just spent this weekend learning. You know what to do. Yeah. It's a few things, man. And mostly it's about where are their pain points for game exploitation, right? Yep. That's a big part of it. And also, too, I tell a lot of people that, and that's why I was glad that you mentioned Colin because I even told him after I heard that. I was like, dude, this is like something that a lot of people need to know because I feel like people, they underestimate the value of actually nudging and moving a pin. It's intimidating. Yep. And I just feel like that right there, I know you hear a lot of people talk about the first skill you need to develop is don't flip, you know, learn to control this and that. But I feel like nudging, if you can get somebody that's an aspiring player that wants to play competitive, I feel like that's the number one skill right there. that will help you. If you can get your recovery skills down and you can do that, I feel like you can go a lot further than with any other skill early on. If you're not accurate like me, you need recovery skills or else you're going to fail. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But hey, if you never miss, you don't have to worry about it, right? I wish it was that easy for me, man. Who is the most accurate player that you've seen before? Like I've heard people, I could have swore I heard... Daniele, probably. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought I heard Robert Gagnos say that he thought Yorian, because I was watching a documentary just the other day, but I've never seen Yorian play in person. I've just seen the videos. Yeah. He's good. Where has he been? I thought he was supposed to be like... Him and I have joked he had some kids and his wife is a lot like my wife. Doesn't let him out a whole bunch anymore. Oh, gosh. Yep, no wonder. That'll do it. See, I guess I got lucky. As soon as I started having kids, my wife was begging me, like, we got to get out of here. We got to go to different places and see things.
    26:12
    That is not my life, brother. so then you know kind of touching base and leaning into this uh just competitive a little bit more what are your thoughts exactly on where competitive pinball is going to is going to go like say five years from now 10 years from now now that we've kind of talked about some of the majors that are coming and going and obviously lots of people are wanting to play competitive pinball now but what are your thoughts on the overall growth of that moving forward i think i was just running some stats for uh chicago gaming had some questions for me about like the ifpa's player base and age and i ended up sending it to zach on the stern side because it was kind of interesting but like it's not it's not great it's not great like you see they had me run some stats of like what was the player base 10 years ago what was the player base age demo five years ago what is it today and there is very clearly a line of people that found pinball in that 90s boom which i was a part of i was a teenager during that time but you can probably stretch down to i'm 41 now but so people were probably as young as you know mid if you're in the mid 30s you probably had some experience of that 90s arcade boom before that disappeared and you can see like 10 years ago that age group was 25 to 35 and then now it's 35 to 40 like the the demographic that is into competitive pinball is moving with age right and i have i was a little disappointed i was telling zach because you know we've done a lot of work with stern on the stern army campaign i'm trying to get you know these barcades like getting events in these barcades to try to lure new people and i would have expected that we have one of our age brackets was 18 to 29 and it was just way lower than i thought like well like like depressingly lower than i thought like i really like like i'm like this is what the stern army campaign's all about man we've been doing this for like five years so and then you you know filter out the numbers and it's like fuck like where are all the 18 to 29 year olds yeah yeah it's it's one of those things that i have a working theory that I feel like if some of these manufacturers would actually reach out to college campuses in terms of their student union and look at donating a pinball machine to large campuses that are around places that already have a larger player base like a Chicago or like somewhere out in California The big problem there is who going to maintain the game Travis Well, that's the key. That's the other part I was going to say. Like the logistics of everything is just... Don't work, man. No, no, it's incredibly tough. And that's the thing. That's why I've talked to several people about that. And that's the difference that a lot of people wonder how esports has boomed. But pinball hasn't kind of gone on that trajectory. And what I tell everybody is, well, esports is much easier to get into. To be able to get a PlayStation, a PC, or an Xbox in your room is a lot easier than this. It's not easy to get this regardless. I mean, for us that are already in pinball, we may think it's easy because we're used to it. But then we all remember the very first pinball machine we got. I mean, it's not the barrier of entry into pinball. And don't get me wrong. I was slightly disappointed at just that age demo, but the number of players by year, we're adding.
    29:52
    Five years ago, let's say 2014, we had 13,000 unique players that played in at least one sanctioned event. 2019 was 24,000 unique players. 2020, for the first three months, 11,000 unique players. So it's growing. it's just it's just i think it's still we're still reaching people that had a familiarity with pinball at some previous point in their lives we're not finding as many people like what is this big piece of wood what do these buttons do it's like you're bringing people that are like oh man i remember that you know i think i played like high speed in college or whatever whatever some version of that and it's like you can play i mean there's so many people that i know that were like i knew a pinball and i didn't know there were like tournaments and leagues and stuff that like you're just providing a different way for someone to enjoy a game they were already familiar with and that's fine like you know i'm happy to to grow the player base that way with a group of people that are familiar i think you know the the bigger growth would be you know sort of leaning on your esports angle is is people like zen studios and like farsight putting in a push for people to do it's a lot easier to get hey keith owen what do you think a video pinball. I think it's a piece of shit.
    31:10
    Zen's gaming got a million dollars to the person that wins this video pinball tournament. Where's my iPad? Let's go. I can play. What's it on? It's on their recreation of ACDC.
    31:22
    Okay. I know the game rules. I will learn how to play this device and make it work. I know plenty of people that have gotten into competitive pinball through playing the Farsight pinball arcade and then And I realized, like, I was playing Funhaus, and I Googled Funhaus, and it was a real game. Like, they didn't just make this up. It's, like, a real thing. And then, you know, you do your little deep dive, and then I meet someone who, like, you know, a year ago, I thought Funhaus was made by Farsight. And here they are a year later, and they traveled down the rabbit hole, man. Yeah, yeah. And then you come out of that, and all of a sudden you see there's several hundred different types of pinball machines out there. And the player retention is great. Once you fall in love with pinball and pinball as a sport, you very rarely fall out of it. I mean, the number of people that I know from the early 90s that I met when I started playing, most of them are still out there, man. Yeah, and that's the key part. And I know there's, of course, a lot of people out there that, I say a lot, there's some people out there that believe that pinball might, within 10, 15, 20 years, for whatever reason, might go by the wayside. But to me... No way. Yeah, I was just like, you know, I've got four kids and they're all involved in pinball. You've got kids. I'm sure they play a little bit. And just because they don't participate in tournaments or do anything like that, they're still playing. I mean, it's both my sons. They play sometimes, but they both have said we want pinball machines in the future in our house. So I feel like there's still a lot of people that are playing pinball. And there's a huge group of people out there that play pinball that don't participate in tournaments at all. I think a lot of people would be shocked how many people there are. I mean, probably at least 75% to 80% of the correspondence I get just from the YouTube channel, from the podcast, are people that don't even play in tournaments. They've never played in one. They just collect, and at least half of them are brand new, just as of 2020. And I think you weren't around in the early aughts when the 90s tournament scene was heavily, like, it was all new games because it was all manufacturer-supported, and then there were five, six manufacturers. Like, when the 2000s hit and everyone went out of business and Gary was putting out, you know, two or three new games a year, it was like all these tournaments that we played at was always the latest and greatest machines. There was no thought about, like, playing a Paragon in a tournament. It just didn't exist. Like, classic-type events and using old games really wasn't a thing. So I've always believed, and I know my dad has always believed, that even if new pinball didn't exist, pinball would still live on, just with the back catalog of equipment that's been made. There's some period post-new games where, you know, 100 years if there was no new games, would stuff die out? Like, yeah, sure. Everything's going to die. That's like the inevitable end of everything. Right. Like, we proved in the 2000s that leaning on collectors at shows and deciding that it didn't have to be just the latest and greatest games in a tournament environment. And it opened up a whole new world to be able to compete on stuff. It's like you competed on like a Monopoly when that came out. And then like the following year, it's like you never played Monopoly in tournament again because Roller Coaster Tycoon was out and that was the game to play. And, you know, I much prefer this version of competitive pinball where kind of all games are up for grabs. Yeah, that's for me, that's the most fun part is even if you have a classics tournament or a modern, I love the tournaments that mixes everything. There's different skill sets, man. It's awesome. That was part of our world championship design in 2006. And the Europeans tended to be people that if a game was made before high speed, you shouldn't even call it pinball. It's something else. I don't know what the word is, but it's not pinball. It's something. And we're big believers in like, instead of complaining that it's not pinball, maybe you should, I don't know, accumulate the skills that are required for those kind of games because they're really different. You know, learning to tap pass isn't something you need to worry about if you're playing high speed and newer. It's a nice skill to have in the toolbox if you're playing, you know, some older stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the funniest part about it is that I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that view classics. You hear it all the time about EMs being luck boxes. And, you know, facing facts, there are some EMs out there that do qualify under that. At least I would say they would. The two-and-a-half-inch flippers would just maybe some scoops out there or some saucers out there to where you might hit one, you might not. I'll tell you what. If you want to go up against L1 100 times, I'll put my money that somehow in this luck box he'll beat you 51 times. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. But the reality is is that when you get exceptional players on these pins, they will figure it out. There's a reason why you see those names. That's the key. Yeah, he's, it's funny. Keith is a, he's a unique character for sure. Like, it cracks me up. Every time I talk to him, you know, I might get a couple of word answers out of him. You know, but I can tell his mind is always, when you ask him a pinball question, though, I can tell immediately. It's like he just clicks over. And, I mean, it's like talking to the Terminator with pinball. He just knows. And that's why, to me, I was just telling him the other day that we are so damn lucky to have somebody like him in pinball that is designing the pins that he has coming out. I mean, can you imagine a situation in which we don't get Elwin pins or a situation to where even Stern isn't around the way that they are? I mean, it's just like you're talking about with all the newest games that were coming out at the clip that they were back in the 90s. I think a lot of people don't realize that that was the case back then compared to what it could be like it was in the early 2000s. You know, so to me, it's just I'm glad to see where pinball is going in terms of. Yeah, I think it is for sure. Now, a big part of me, I kind of want to see some I want to see somebody take a chance and do something more of the classical nature in terms of maybe more like the way a solid state would look. But unfortunately, I don't know if manufacturing capabilities would even allow that, if economies of scale would even allow that nowadays. I mean, whether it's comments like that or comments on theme, right? That's the other big thing that gets talked about is the dad rock. And why are these companies not trying things? And it's like, it's expensive to try things. You know, we've tried things at Raw Thrills that we've thrown in the garbage. And it's like, you know, it'd be nice as, I don't know, having that $2 million back in our bank account rather than having tried this. So it's like, what are we doing now? We're going to make our next driving game because that's what we do well. And it's like at some point, you know, you just need to evaluate where and all these businesses do, like where they are in their business that they can take a chance. And it's hard, man, because taking a chance and it not paying out, there's a long period of time to have to recover from that before you get back on the highway. And you're like, all right, we're back on the highway. We're back doing 75 and everything's great. But like, yeah, man, we like we felt the ditch back there and got a tow out and replaced two tires. And, you know, it's all that costs real money. And there's always someone at the top paying the bills, man. Yeah, and that's actually what one of my business mentors told me a long time ago, that you have to earn the chance to take a chance. Like you have to earn that because it's almost one of those weird things to where early on you will take chances if you're at the very beginning because you have to build that nut up. You have to get something going. You have to get that snowball going downhill. But then eventually, if what you know is working and what you know is consistent, then it almost becomes difficult to get away from what's consistent to go into the unknown. And like you said, you could crash and burn going into the unknown. And then you're left with, well, what was the point of doing that when I could have been consistent with X, Y, Z? And paying attention, you know, if you're talking to 500 people about pinball, it's important to recognize, like, there's the age demographic of those who play, and there's the age demographic of those who buy. And for everyone, you know, you read on Pinside, and it's like, fuck, man, I'm not buying that thing. And it's like nine times out of 10, they weren't buying it anyway. so it doesn't like it doesn't stop them from complaining that like somehow stern did x with this or jjp did y with this and now it's like and now for that reason i'm out it's like okay shark tank guy you were out like you weren't you weren't trying to find a reason to be in you were just vocalizing some particular reason why you were out so you know i think all the manufacturers are are doing what they can to sell games and i think if you see someone like where i think it's exciting in like the hobby part of the industry is you see someone like scott you know build tna from nothing and it's like and see you know whether it's like ryan mcquade with sonic like the what hobbyists are able to do now is like it's insane man they like they could build up something that's like genuinely like a real thing and and if there's a way to harness that energy and make something that you could kind of test with the world, would there be interest and get enough pre-sales to make it worth someone's time? I think that's how you can sneak in some of this change. And you see something like a TNA come out and it's like, will there be a company that makes a TNA-like game, single level game? Maybe, maybe. It could. Yeah. Well, it's funny. The way that I buy pinball machines is probably much different than the normal person. It's like I have my themes that I love. Obviously, I love Avengers, love Walking Dead, but I've purchased other pinball machines before just because for me, pinball's fun. If the layout looks fun or if the rule set looks fun, I want to play it regardless of the theme. I just want a chance to flip it, and then obviously if I can move it, if I can sell it, that's fine with me, but I got a feeling. I could as well, I've heard you say on another podcast before that theme really doesn't play too much into your own buying decisions. I'm not a big I mean I have what do I have like I have a Dracula and don't really I mean that movie is fine I have I don't like Iron Maiden the band I don't like Metallica the band I learned I didn't like ACDC but now I really do from the game I you know I've learned to appreciate their music but like yeah man for me it's like did Elwin make it is Lyman on it like those two guys it's like they kind of know how to make stuff that is fun for me so regardless of the thing. So when Elwyn makes Golden Girls, man, I'm in. Yeah, and that's one of the funniest parts with how good Elwyn is at doing what he does. It's almost as if Stern doesn't have to necessarily worry too much about the theme that he's on in terms of getting whatever sells that they want to get out there. Now, obviously, if you're putting pins on location, not too many people are going to know who the designer or who the rule set person is. They just see the theme. I would dare say there's a business argument to that of like, you give him the worst, like, he's kind of shit out of luck, man. Sorry, dude, you're the brand. So therefore you get all of these shit licenses because we need the games that are objectively worse to have better themes so we can move products Yep that the debate we were having And I almost i actually agree with that i know if he listens back to this he gonna be like oh no like if that like there's no way sorry keith you're getting shit forever don't work for me i won't give you any licenses that you want i feel like he's one of those he's one of the few people in pinball that could do something unlicensed and it would still compete pound for pound with sales with most of the titles that are out today. I think it could. You get the Elwynn fanboys and fangirls, no problem, but they're still... Do you think there would be a thousand Elwynn fanboys out there that would pay $15,000 for Super L-E, L-Win pin? No.
    44:07
    You think there'd be 2,000 then? No. See, I'm just going to go higher. You never know. See, I used to think that there wouldn't be that many people out there for that, but then when I see pinball prices going where they're going, it's making me wonder, is this just the same small pond that are increasing these prices, or is it new people that just don't know any better? Like, is there just a bunch of rich people out there just spending money like it doesn't mean anything?
    44:37
    It's a little bit of everything, isn't it? Yeah, man. There is a particular collector group that is hitting an age in their life with disposable income, you know, call it mid-40s to mid-50s right now, that have more often than not that demographic is geekier in nature. If you're a games person, that you probably don't have a strong like drug or alcohol problem or something or other vices that are using that disposable income. That if you're smart and have a decent job and have some money to spend, it's not that expensive of a toy for someone who it's like that's their only vice right like right it's like it's like what's your car i drive a corolla it's like well dude you have like 200 grand worth of games in your basement it's like yeah no i know it's like what's your house worth about 175 so you're telling me your games are worth more than your house yeah no that's right see it's hilarious you're saying that because i know several of those people around it's it's almost it's it's surreal when you go into a house and I've done this before to where I've gone places with, with friends. Cause they're like, Oh, so-and-so has just this bad-ass, you know, collection and we're going to a place. And I'm like, are we going to get robbed getting out of our car? Where are we? Then all of a sudden there's $200,000 worth of pinball machines just sitting there. I mean, that's what amazes me about Tom Graff's place. Now he doesn't live in the ghetto or anything like that. He lives in a nice place. He's going to listen to better prepare for your next triple drain, man. Oh yeah. No, for you. Oh gosh. Yeah. Tom is a superstar on there. Let me tell you. But yeah, he has one of the most amazing collections that I've ever seen just because it's like L.E., L.E., and then he has all the badass old school games like Creature, Addams Family, Frontier. I mean, so stuff like that. The guys who do it right, and I'm pretty terrible at this, although I did just sell like six games during the pandemic, is if you're able to turn it over, like, I mean, I was selling games that I had bought in like the two thousands for whatever pennies on the dollar. Now that like, you know, I, I bought a fishtails from an operator that was beat to shit for 500 bucks and like sold it for three grand. Like if you're turning that over, like I have a pretty nice collection that I kind of don't have any real money into because I've sold 60 games over the last, whatever, however many years. And it's like, it's the little, the little profit wins where you sell, you know, five games and you just afforded, you know, your walking dead is now free, you know, based off of turning those other five games over. So, yeah, that, that would be nice. I mean, unfortunately when I got into pinball, there was no late man. Yeah. There's back in the day, man, the Craigslist huntings, there was some good stuff out there. Oh, I saw somebody post, um, on Facebook, it was a page from an amusement coin book or something like that. Did you see that? There was some game on there. I think it was like T3 was worth more than or was priced higher than a Circus Voltaire or than like a Lord of the Rings. I can remember in college the Williams was closing out No Good Gophers and Circus Voltaire and I had one of my buddies down there was like looking for a game for his apartment and like Twilight Zone was his favorite. So he had talked with a local operator there and they had a twilight in stock and it was like 1200 bucks and i was like dude you're crazy because i my dad called and was like hey do you do you or zach or anyone i can get circuses and gophers 800 bucks new in the box do you want one and i'm like no no what do i do with those things like no 800 bucks like no what do you pay dad when you get you pay like a hundred dollars you have to pay you a delivery fee they're free 800 bucks is terrible and uh but i asked my friend it's like hey gophers was whatever a pat lawler game and it's like hey man do you want a new his new game at the time it was his new game do you want his new game for 800 bucks like my dad can just get it for you and it's like no you know i'll take this busted ass routed twilight for 1200 instead it's like man good luck to you bro and it's like i probably still has it but it's like you know back then the pricing what pricing is now is is insane yeah and it's funny it's kind of hard unless you know somebody that was around that era it's kind of hard just to to describe it because just like what you described there i'm sure i i've heard it from several other people to where they're finding stuff at garage sales back then for less than 500 or 250 first game was a cybernaut for 50 bucks in 2000 whatever and it was like gosh not working it was and it was a fuse it was like one fuse and it powered up and he had his first game for 50 bucks see we've only ran into that one time ever i have a i have a big hit i think it's got leave downstairs that my wife picked up for a hundred dollars and the guy was like yeah it doesn't work and it's not doing anything and it was literally just one fuse and it was good apple deluxe was like that i've had a couple where it was like, it was just a fuse.
    49:51
    I don't know if we can get those lines anymore. It's always just a fuse, but sometimes it actually is. Sometimes it is. Other times when you go visit somebody to where you see the pictures and then you show up and it looks nothing like the pictures. It's like you're getting catfished, but with pinball. Yeah, that's so glorious. All right, well, I got a couple more questions real quick. I know I told you before. I wasn't going to do an interview, but I had to get these out because I need to know. So I think you mentioned before IFBA, the World Championships, are going to be next May, correct? Sounds right. So we're just getting our timeline back here because I know a lot of people want to know. So my T-shirt that I received just as the pandemic hit, it'll be pretty close to only having one number that's incorrect on it. The 2020, it'll be 2022. Well, there you go. Hey, that'll be a collector's edition. That's right. That's all that matters, right? so okay so then if if 17 is going to be in may that means if the 18 would be the following may right we're yeah the following right we usually our kind of golden rule has always been to try to team it up with an event wherever wherever if is being held can we make it a weekend after some other big event in wherever we're going. And so we haven't talked about that with, I mean, we haven't talked to the German group in a while, but they ran IFPA 10 for us. It's the same group. So I always try to lobby for making EPC the weekend before IFPA. So I will probably be lobbying pretty hard to my country director friends of like, why don't you guys have Germany host the EPC in 2023? Because I'd love to go. We did that in London. We did EPC and IFPA back-to-back weekends, and a bunch of Americans got to play in an EPC, see London, and then play in IFPA and head home. See, that would be pretty cool. Yeah. And so then I would assume, so qualifying for that then would run through, what would it be, like December 31st? Of 22. Of 22, okay. Just making sure, and that's like, I'm asking for me, because I want to go. There's a lot of people asking for you, man. I know. This is why I have to get my District 82 on because I'm not running shit if I'm not playing in it. You think I'm going to go fly to Germany to sit in a chair all weekend? You're out of your mind. I think you'll be good. You're ranked, what, like 44th right now? You're usually top 30. Aren't you pretty consistent? There's kind of a level. I mean, pre-kids there was a level. Then there was kind of a post-kids plateauing.
    52:26
    Yeah, it'd be nice. I can remember when I dropped off the front page, and that was a sad day. It'd be nice to chase back up there a little bit. I think you'll get back up there before Teolos gets up there the first time. Oh, well, that's for sure, man. Yeah, you'll be good. You'll be fine. So then we got IFBA out of the way. When do you expect SPC tournaments to start back up? Just next year, 2022? 2022, qualifying, and then the next Oklahoma state championship will be January of 23. Okay. This is all making sense. Then the SPC, I believe it would have been the 2020 Circuit Championship. What does that move to now? We haven't played the 2019 final yet. Yeah, the 2019. That final, those 20 people are done.
    53:18
    We just haven't played it yet. We are figuring that out now. Hopefully before the end of the calendar year, we will find a way to get those 20 people in a room, get this thing done with and get it over. The 2020 season has now become the 2020 slash 2021 slash 2022 season. And our rule is if the event has already happened, it counts. So that would be the Open at InDisc and Pinmasters are the only two that count because Texas just missed. that's when the world ended right tpf got canceled right so those two are done the other 18 events or what's left of them let me pour some out for pinbird so yeah they uh so the other 17 events that now remain will be held in 2022 and that includes even for events that can be held in 2021 so like Expo, for example, like Expo will be held in October of this year, that will not count for the circuit. Expo's 22 events will count towards the circuit. Okay, but the Open and Masters count. And so when those get run next year in 2022, neither of those will count for the circuit because the 2020 events already did. Okay, so that's actually... No double dipping there. I know Carl wasn't pleased with that decision, but too bad. Yeah, well, I will tell you right now, I'll just kiss your ass and say I think it's a great decision because I did halfway decent. There you go. Me too, man. Why do you think we made the decision we made? I played all right. Here are your points, man. Okay, so now for all the listeners out there, now you guys know if you played in the Open back in 2020, January 2020, or Pinmasters of March 2020, those points do carry over and do count for this upcoming season's Stern Pro Circuit, which is starting in 2022. Correct. It's a mouthful, but hey, we got it all out. You know what? It's going to work, and five years from now, it will be something that we dealt with five years ago, and it will be done. Exactly. You just got to get through it now and get these tournaments going, and it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Well, Josh, I appreciate your time, man. I'm glad to finally get you on here after about a year of going back and forth and trying to find a good time. But I say a good time. It's totally my fault. You were great. You definitely were very accessible, much better than Tom Graff, who's not accessible at all. So thank you. I appreciate it. And we'll have to have you come on our podcast at some point. You'll have to ask him about the tournament ruling that caused him to quit being a state rep. Oh, he's told me that story. I don't know if you guys have talked about that on air, but that'd be a fun one. We haven't talked about it on air. We might wait until you come on and then we'll talk about it. Tom will be sick that day or doing someone's filling at work. Sorry, guys, can't make it. You're doing a filling at like 10 at night? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, that's Tom Graff for you. Well, I appreciate it. Do you have anything you want to plug? I don't know if you have anything to plug. I mean, IPA? No. All Thrills?
    56:35
    No. No, you're good. We're good, man. We're good. Do you have anything to say to Teolis before we go off air? No. he's not worth words although I'm sure he's going to be like he probably he called me earlier this week and I was like oh yeah he wants to have me on before August 1st and I'm like he usually tells me if I have anything planned and we didn't even get to that but I was going to be like yeah we can do a show before August 1st I'm going on with Travis later this week and I'm sure he'd be like mute get the scoop Exactly, get in the scoop. Hey, we got done what we needed to get done. All the information's out there, and everybody can... You did Jeff's job. You saved me a Jeff conversation, man. I'm just going to divert him to like, oh, just go listen to the pod, man. It's all there. That's what I'm here for. Just record your pinball profile as our conversation that we're just having now, and just air that on his channel. Cross-marketing. You can get all of his listeners for you. I'm sure he'll love that. Him and his mullet. So, yeah.
    57:37
    All right. Take care, Josh. I appreciate it, brother. Have a good one.