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The Pinball Show Ep 192 BONUS: What Each Pinball Manufacturer Needs To Do To Reach The Next Level

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·50m 12s·analyzed·May 5, 2026
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TL;DR

Pinball Show hosts critique each major manufacturer's path to growth in Q2 2026.

Summary

In this Q2 2026 Pinball Show bonus episode, hosts analyze what each major pinball manufacturer needs to do to reach the next level. Key recommendations include: Stern should elevate Limited Editions with luxury features and individualization rather than just quantity limits; Jersey Jack should embrace a single premium model with time-limited orders and focus on manufacturing efficiency; Spooky needs to grow production to meet demand or accept community backlash; Chicago Gaming Company must commit resources and speed up development cycles; and Barrels of Fun must prioritize code quality and build quality to avoid the stigma that damaged Spooky's early reputation.

Key Claims

  • Stern's Limited Editions don't feel luxury enough compared to competitors; they need features like custom toppers, individualized placards, and premium materials (gold screws, reactive finishes) that justify premium pricing.

    high confidence · Host (unnamed primary speaker) discussing Stern's LE strategy, specifically contrasting Batman 66's success with current approach

  • Jersey Jack Pinball should move to a single-model, time-limited production strategy at $15,000 per unit rather than multiple tiers, similar to the Williams manufacturing model.

    high confidence · Dennis discussing JJP's stratification problems and recommending consolidation around one premium model

  • Spooky Pinball's artificial scarcity (1,000 units) creates customer resentment that outweighs loyalty from early adopters; the company must grow production or accept negative community sentiment.

    high confidence · Primary speaker arguing that Spooky's refusal to scale will damage long-term brand perception

  • Barrels of Fun launched Dune with bare bones code, which was a significant mistake that almost led to production cessation; Winchester's success masked the underlying problem.

    high confidence · Dennis criticizing Barrels' code quality and suggesting Dune would have had ~20% lower sales without Winchester momentum

  • Chicago Gaming Company has slowed development cycles and lost competitive positioning; they once had a guaranteed 1,000-2,000 unit annual market but are losing to newer competitors.

    medium confidence · Primary speaker noting CGC's lost niche and slow output on Monster Bash, Cactus Canyon, and other projects

  • Stern's Costco home editions at ~$5,000-$6,000 represent successful market expansion below their standard Pro tier.

    medium confidence · Primary speaker mentioning Stern's dabbling in lower-priced home market segments

  • Batman 66 Limited Edition machines still sell for $20,000+ on secondary market because of exclusive toppers and individualized serial number placards that cannot be purchased as accessories.

    high confidence · Primary speaker citing Batman 66 as successful LE case study for Stern to replicate

Notable Quotes

  • “Why are you not – it can't just be to me. It shouldn't just be limited. Like you need to be able to point to something and be like, this is really expensive or this is handcrafted or this is something that's not in there that you only get with the LE.”

    Dennis @ ~12:30 — Core critique of Stern's LE strategy—suggests LEs must differentiate through luxury/craftsmanship, not just scarcity

  • “One model. Just one – so going to that barrel spooky kind of thing. One model. $15,000, one model.”

    Primary host @ ~28:45 — Proposes radical consolidation strategy for JJP to embrace single premium tier and eliminate mid-tier confusion

  • “You can't have licenses like this at prices that you're offering them for and then say it's a thousand units, guys. Sorry, I know there's four thousand units worth of demand, but we're spooky.”

    Primary host @ ~37:15 — Identifies core tension in Spooky's brand positioning—artificial scarcity creates customer frustration that can't be sustained

  • “Barrels of Fun launched Dune with bare bones code. That will not fly for an upstart. That was a huge mistake, and it really cost on Dune.”

    Dennis @ ~53:20 — Pinpoints critical vulnerability for new manufacturers—code quality standards are higher for newcomers than established players

  • “They have all this stuff that does well, and it seems like they're completely unimpressed by it. I don't get it. It's so weird to me.”

    Dennis @ ~44:30 — Characterizes Chicago Gaming Company as unmotivated despite strong product quality and established market position

  • “It would be Batman. Remember Batman each had its own placard. Yes. And well, the gadgets to the gadgets had their own badge and you got your individual gadget.”

    Primary host @ ~16:45 — Cites Batman 66's individualization strategy as model for Stern LEs—each unit has unique commemorative card/placard

  • “You can individuate, I don't even know if that's a word, you can make each one of them special... No matter if you got shark repellent or the shit Batman, the shittiest Batman one possible, you're the only one that got that.”

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyBarrels of FuncompanyDennispersonBatman 66game

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern Pinball's Limited Editions lack sufficient luxury/craftsmanship differentiation to justify premium pricing; recommendations include exclusive toppers, individualized serial cards, premium materials (gold screws, reactive finishes), and potential price increase to $14,999-$15,000 to fund enhanced bill of materials

    high · Sustained discussion of Batman 66's success with exclusive toppers, custom artwork, and Julie Newmar signatures vs. current LE approach; hosts argue current LEs feel 'industrial' and 'tacky' rather than luxury

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball's multi-tier product strategy (Standard/CE/LE) creates market confusion and fails to differentiate value; recommendation is to consolidate to single $15,000 premium model with time-limited order windows

    high · Dennis criticizes JJP's historical limitation strategy (5,000-unit 'limited' runs) as ineffective; primary host proposes single-model approach as solution

  • $

    market_signal: Spooky Pinball's artificial scarcity strategy (1,000 units per game) creates customer frustration and resentment despite strong demand signals; tension between company's stated customer-centric values (jump-in-line) and production constraints

    high · Primary host argues Spooky's refusal to grow disproportionately angers unmet demand vs. pleasing satisfied customers; net sentiment effect is negative community perception

  • ?

    product_concern: Barrels of Fun launched Dune Pinball with 'bare bones code' at launch, which is unacceptable for new manufacturers who lack Stern's market dominance and goodwill buffer; nearly caused production cessation

    high · Dennis criticizes bare bones code as 'huge mistake' and estimates Winchester success masked ~20% lower Dune sales; Barrels lacks brand resilience to recover from code issues

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.151

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. All right, viewer, you wanted to see it. You wanted to hear it. Here's Dennis and I giving our take as of currently, what are we in Q2 of 2026? What we think it would take for each manufacturer to take that next level, that next step up in their game. This is very loose, but also based on our own experience in the hobby and industry. And one that I think is pretty educated, to be honest with you. Let's start with Stern. We talked about it at the head of the show and I'll jump off here. I'll start off. To me, Stern Pinball, we showcased it in the show. What makes them different is that they have a manufacturing prowess that's bigger than anybody's. Arguably, maybe everybody's combined. So they've got that in spades. They also have this hybrid model where they create three editions of all of their normal Cornerstones, Pro Premium LE, and they can cater to the operator and those putting them in arcades better than anybody because they have that price. They have the lowest price in the business, and they build a hell of a game. They have a hobbyist premium, and then they do have the LE. So it's a hybrid in that they can sell as many as they want to whoever. Then they can sell a limited amount for the high end people. So they're trying to cover the entire game up there. They do that really well. And you talked about that, too, where I think we would. And they even dabbled in the little home additions at Costco for even five thousand dollars or six thousand, whatever they're selling for now. I think what would put Stern over the top because it's hard to put over the top. Somebody is already over the top. They're already doing the best, arguably, in the industry. But what would make them even more so, the little one caveat, the easy one is they got to do better titles overall, better themes overall. They do Pokemon. They did great. They get some of the big ones, but they did better in the past being the default, getting the biggest themes in the industry. But what I think they need to do is they need to find a way to make that LE just as enticing as their competitors are in that space.
2:38

  • Jersey Jack Pinball has struggled with unclear limitation tiers, such as calling a 5,000-unit production run 'limited' which undermines the concept.

    medium confidence · Dennis criticizing JJP's historical limitation strategy as ineffective and confusing

  • Spooky Pinball should hire a second engineer to drive mechanical innovation and layout diversification, as current games duplicate proven mechanics rather than introduce novel designs.

    medium confidence · Primary speaker suggesting Spooky recruit someone like 'Harrison Drake' to expand engineering capacity and creative scope

  • Barrels of Fun is experiencing build quality issues on Winchester and Dune games, with spaghetti wiring and multiple component failures reported by customers, risking the reputation damage Spooky faced early on.

    high confidence · Dennis describing Winchester launches with 'spaghetti wire everywhere' and multiple quality failures as 'amateur hour'

    • Primary host @ ~18:00 — Explains psychological/collector motivation behind individualized serial cards—collectibility persists even for 'lesser' variants

  • “Get good. So in the sense that like Labyrinth, you know, the game's ready, all that stuff came out great. But already as of sophomore and junior effort... they ain't stern. You don't be launching a game with bare bones code.”

    Dennis @ ~52:00 — Establishes higher standard for Barrels—cannot match Stern's market dominance and therefore cannot compromise on code quality at launch

  • “Just be faster. That's all I know... It happens and their quality is there. So in a way you feel like, well, the people building it seem to care, but the whole company seems like, eh, I guess Pinball is still a thing.”

    Dennis @ ~46:00 — Summarizes institutional malaise at Chicago Gaming Company—quality exists but company-wide motivation is absent

  • “They don't bank on, well, you know, it's almost like the Jersey Jack mentality. Like, well, we made Pirates of the Caribbean because I remember when I was a dealer, Stern sold a bunch of them Pirates of the Caribbean. That is not good decision making.”

    Primary host @ ~48:30 — Criticizes backward-looking decision-making in established manufacturers—mining past successes rather than identifying current trends

    • Pokemon
    game
    Harry Potter Pinballgame
    Labyrinthgame
    Dune Pinballgame
    Winchester Mystery Housegame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Elton Johngame
    Monster Bashgame
    Cactus Canyongame
    Evil Deadgame
    George Gomezperson
    Eric Menorperson
    Williamscompany
    Gadgetsgame
    Sonicgame
    Bob Marley Pinballgame
    Merlingame
    Pinball Showorganization
  • ?

    product_concern: Barrels of Fun experiencing multiple build quality issues on Winchester and Dune games including spaghetti wiring, component failures, and amateur-hour execution; risks early-stage reputation damage that difficult to reverse

    high · Dennis describes Winchester 'going out with spaghetti wire everywhere' and reports of customers needing 5+ fixes; compares to early Spooky reputation trap

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Chicago Gaming Company appears to have lost institutional motivation and market focus despite product quality; characterized as unimpressed with own success and unable to leverage established 1,000-2,000 unit annual niche

    high · Dennis observes CGC attitude is 'eh, I guess Pinball is still a thing' despite strong product reception when released; primary host notes CGC lost competitive positioning to newer companies

  • ?

    industry_signal: New manufacturers face higher quality standards than established players; bare bones code acceptable for Stern (market dominance, brand goodwill) but fatal for Barrels of Fun competing without safety margin

    high · Dennis explicitly states 'You can't be launching a game with bare bones code. That will not fly for an upstart' and contrasts with Stern's market position

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky Pinball games are praised for theme immersion but criticized for duplicative mechanical design lacking novelty; recommendation is to hire additional senior engineer to expand layout diversity and introduce genuinely novel mechanics

    medium · Primary host suggests Evil Dead duplicates proven mechanics (pop-up mechs, drop banks, drop targets) rather than introducing innovation; recommends hiring caliber of 'Harrison Drake' or 'Elliot' for engineering

  • $

    market_signal: Individualization drives secondary market value retention; Batman 66 LEs with unique serial cards maintain $20,000+ pricing; Pokemon benefits from individuation strategy; collectibility persists even for 'lesser' variants of same game

    high · Primary host explains each Batman 66 placard creates one-of-one perception that sustains value; argues this is 'bullshit but our bullshit' in collector psychology

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball lacks manufacturing speed/efficiency to match Stern's quarterly output; JJP cannot support single-model strategy without achieving 50 units/day, 500 units/week production capacity to enable between-release re-runs

    high · Dennis recommends JJP pursue Stern-level manufacturing efficiency (50/day, 500/week) and ability to re-run catalog titles (Elton John, Pirates) every 2 years to sustain revenue

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Theme licensing quality is primary differentiator for boutique manufacturers; JJP and others cannot command premium pricing without securing marquee IP; concerns about Spooky/JJP licensing decision-making suggest insufficient rigor in vetting IP viability for pinball

    high · Dennis emphasizes JJP needs 'George Gomez figure' to vet licenses and creative direction; primary host criticizes Bob Marley rumors and emphasizes need for serious, thoughtful IP selection

  • $

    market_signal: Multi-tier pricing strategy (Pro/Premium/LE at Stern; Standard/CE/LE at JJP) fails when tiers are insufficiently differentiated; buyers trade up to next tier rather than choosing within tier based on feature/price trade-off

    medium · Primary host notes JJP $10,000 model doesn't differentiate from $12,000; buyers just spend extra $2,000; suggests testing $9,999 price point to undercut Stern if quality permits

    • And what I think would do that are limited. They got to be careful with how many they make, because like Dennis has said, they always are going to be compared to having pro and premiums that you can play. And if you can play the same game, then people, it's going to be hard to miss out on an LE if they can still play the same game. I don't want you to change the game so much that it's a different game entirely, but you got to offer something that keeps people, those collectors that are willing to pay the big bucks, give them reason to spend those big bucks. I'm not saying you're not doing it now, but I think there's some pretty easy little things you could do to justify that limited run that you are doing. Because I don't even think it's horrible, Dennis, tell me if I'm wrong.
    3:26
    Everybody's like, they need to be under 1,000 units, it needs to be under 1,000 units. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think for things like Pokemon or big, big IPs, you could probably go a thousand units, but you really just need to give the LE buyer something different so that it holds that value. Because playing that game of trying to have it worth more than MSRP is going to be really hard to do when you make a premium or pro model. So that just means you have to do even more so to make it stand out. That would be my thing. I don't think the easy thing is like 500 units and we just still keep doing whatever we do. I don't necessarily think that's the answer. I think the next step for you is to give people a reason and not just the default of we'll just make 500 instead of 1,000. I think it's weak. I don't think that's the answer. I think the answer is let's up your game on those LEs and really make it to where even people who can't afford the LE, they don't want to afford it. And even they're like salivating like, damn, but I know Ellie's hold value. And I know that I get this with that Ellie and I'm not going to get it with a premium no matter what I pay.
    4:40
    And maybe we'll talk about what those things are. But what do you think, Dennis? Yeah, actually, maybe we should have consulted ahead of time because that was going to be my thing. I think the problem with Stern noting that they the big dog and they doing quite well is their top tier doesn feel very luxury to me And that the audience that it is like you you already you have the arcade market You have anyone who just wants to get into the game space like they've got competitively priced products. Their LEs are competitively priced. I feel like they're still trying to be like, oh, well, this is a high end Toyota instead of saying this is Lexus. It's like it ain't enough to just be like, oh, yeah, you're going to get a shaker motor. Do you even get that with it anymore? I don't know. And a back glass instead of a trans light, which anyone who's old enough in pinball will go. We used to always, always get back glasses. So like I'm thinking that, again, I'm big on limiting the quantity, but I wouldn't say the answer here for them is just to limit the quantity. It would be what can you do to elevate the experience? Because right now it feels like it's just a bunch of kind of tacky knickknacks and a signature. Like, I mean, we're talking things like take a page out of HEP. Doesn't he do like nickel plated screws? Like something that would be all throughout the game. OK, that's good. I agree with you. Don't change the gameplay. Same game, same rules. But why can't we do something like that? Do you know there are screws that are made out of gold? Hmm. Like so I'm talking about a world where they double the LE price. Oh, and maybe even limit the numbers further. Maybe not. But you got to put something in there that's just like this right now. The way it feels that Stern does it is the LE in their head is it's the premium. But for people that are obsessed with the theme and to me, the LE should be. No, this is a different class of buyer with way more money than you're leaving on the table here. But you've got to give them a premium experience. Right now, even the Elif's from Stern feel like an industrial product with a different art package and then you just get some glass with it. It's just not elevated enough. So like the other companies, sure, but I'm saying like more so. Why are you not – it can't just be to me. It shouldn't just be limited. Like you need to be able to point to something and be like, this is really expensive or this is handcrafted or this is something that's not in there that you only get with the LE. And the LE is targeted at a different audience than the premium is. Right now, it's the same audience. Yeah, I would, to piggyback off of that, if I'm Stern Pinball, I would consider the following. I would consider actually increasing my price from $12,999 on the LEs to $14,999 on the LEs. I would make a thousand units of each of them. And then with that extra bill of materials, I would I would do it. It's not like I'm blowing smoke out my ass here. What is one pinball machine that Stern has made that still holds its value significantly more? And just do that. It's Batman 66. They made an SLE. Hell, they may even made an LE. And those things are still selling for $20,000, $20,000 plus. And the reason being is because they gave people things like a dedicated topper at launch of the game that you cannot buy. You couldn't buy it as an accessory. That's an easy fix with that extra $2,000 that I said let's add to the price. That's an easy way to do it there. They also had some cabinet artwork. It was just gorgeous. It was so much different than the Pro and Premium counterpart. Different schemes and themes all together. It had this reactive type of finish to it as well. But things like that. I also think this is a free one for you, Stern.
    8:43
    Of the 1,000 units that you're doing, make each and every one of them special. Just like, wait a minute, where did you do that before? Batman. Remember Batman each had its own placard. Yes. And well, the gadgets to the gadgets had their own badge and you got your individual gadget. But on the apron arch itself, you had this nice plexi with the screw over this commemorative card and each card was different. Even on the Julie Newmar, the Catwoman edition, she signed every one of them. Just it's something like that. I distinguish, look at Pokemon and how much, those are going for more in MSRP. It's a big, huge IP, but some of it is because you can individuate, I don't even know if that's a word, you can make each one of them special. Stern, it does not take much. It does not take much to find 1,000 of something tied to an IP to put on a placard to put it on there. Because I tell you what, no matter if you got shark repellent or the shit Batman, the shittiest Batman one possible, you're the only one that got that. And it still holds some weight thereafter with collectability We can all agree it kind of bullshit but it our bullshit And it still kind of makes it special One of one if you will So if I'm doing this as a manufacturer, this is what I would be doing. I would be making because I'd be hesitant to do it in an SLE because then you kind of water down your alley. I would stay probably away from that unless there's crazy circumstances and something special. So my default would be let's do a thousand LEs, $15,000 a piece, if not more. I don't care what you do. But if you build it right, they will come. And so those are some of the things that I think you could really go above and beyond. I know some of the things don't make sense. Like people are like, well, do do your own code. That gets weird. Some people like change the artwork on the play field. You can ask JJP. That's pretty cumbersome and kind of expensive. You could do it if you're doing 1,000 units. I like the glitter idea. That's something special enough. Maybe some material differences, some reflective material stuff before you clear coat the play field. Maybe that. There's all kinds of easy little ways you can do it to make more money and to have the games worth more in the second-end market. I feel really strongly about that one, Dennis. Okay. Let's go to Jersey Jack Pinball. What in the hell could Jersey Jack Pinball do to take it up a notch? Well, we know they're kind of getting rid of the standard model. What do they need to do? Because their goal is probably to get even closer to rival Stern Pinball. I mean, for me, I think it's the biggest thing I've been frustrated with and they kind of stepped away with it from Harry Potter. So I don't necessarily want to use this as my only point, but they're they never did the limitation thing right, in my opinion. Having two tiers of limited and one is so not limited, but limited is to be a joke like they should have solved that years ago. That was stupid. I always say it was stupid to say that there's a limit of 5000. Wasn't in something of pinball. Absolutely ridiculous.
    12:08
    What I honestly think that would be best for them because if they want to lean into this, we're the Cadillac of pinball. We're going to have a pricey product, but it's going to be worth it. We're going to have the quality. We're going to have the integration of the theme. We're going to have the bill of materials. One model. The CE model becomes the one model and it's time limited. One model. One model. You put your best art on it. They know which art it is. It's what they put on the CEs already. Put your best art on it and you kind of do it old school, what they've been saying with Harry Potter, the old Williams method of, you know, we do a run on a game. This is actually a criticism where I think with Stern, given what it targets with the premiums and pros, does it better than Williams. Williams never, other than very rare exceptions, went back and did another run. There was one run and they moved on. They never exploited the market the way they could have. With JJP, though, go back to that because you're the Cadillac of Pinball. Here's the model. We're only going to accept orders for a certain period of time. We'll make as many as – and that period of time can be a couple months. That's fine. But once it's done, we close the books. We build our caddies. Everyone gets a Cadillac. That's the JJP way. We don't cheap out. Would you sell the LEs? You would still have the LEs too? Nope. One model. Just one – so going to that barrel spooky kind of thing. One model. $15,000, one model.
    13:31
    I've never thought about that. And it might not be the right answer, but given all the decisions they do when they try and stratify, it just doesn't work with the way they want to do it. All their stuff is already too expensive. It's already limited because it's so expensive.
    13:46
    You know that the arcade editions struggle completely. Just embrace that you're a $15,000 machine maker and just run with that and quit letting the number be in the way. They didn't with Harry Potter and it's worked out. The trick is licenses got to be like Harry Potter. You got to keep in. If it's like if Sonic's like that, too. I mean, you got it. You got to step it up. You can't be having these rumors swirling that you're going to do a Bob Marley pin like you got to. We're serious now. You got to have big time licenses. But at fifteen thousand dollars to pop, there's no reason you can't afford it. So, yeah, let's see. I wouldn't I wouldn't expect that one. I'm not saying it couldn't work, though. It might be. You probably have a different idea. My initial thought was a lot of assumptions. Let's assume they continue getting great licenses. Let's assume. Because if we're not assuming that, then I think that's where they need to focus. Make sure that when you're inking the deal that you have somebody there or a group of people that are really good at knowing what people want. And they don allow you to make a deal on a shit ass license because you too far removed from knowing whether it a good license for pinball or not
    15:05
    I'm not saying them in particular are the only ones guilty of that, but that's what I worry about with every manufacturer. So assuming they continue to know what good licenses, great licenses are, that's a big assumption. But assuming then we'll continue to assume that they put a lot in their games. They load them down.
    15:27
    I think the focus areas that I would have for JJP, Jersey Jack Pinball to take that next level, that next step to be closer to a Stern is find a way to increase the speed and quality of manufacturing. If you want to play this game where you're not going to limit stuff and you're just going to build as many as you can, then you need to find a way to be more efficient with running things. You need to, when you announce a game, you need to have games online ready to go like Stern Pinball. You need to be making, you need to be making 50 a day. You need to be cranking out 500 a week. And then you need to be ready for that next game in the, you know, in development to keep moving. Then you need to focus on cataloging games so that in the in between your game releases, maybe you pull back and you run another 250 Elton Johns or you run another Pirates of the Caribbean 500 run to every two years or so. So building upon that, I think you just got to find a way to make it more efficient and build them faster and better. That's what I would focus on if I was JJP in that situation. But you could also say the reason that $10,000 game doesn't work, a model doesn't work, is because it doesn't differentiate itself that much from a $12,000 model. And if people are already going to be spending more on a pinball machine than pretty much every other manufacturer, they might as well just spend the extra $2,000. But if you wanted to, look into that $59.99 pinball machine. See what you can build. See what that looks like to still make a profit. Then see if that works. Maybe try to beat Stern at the try to bottom out. I don't know if it's possible, but I don't know if it's possible because I'm not in that situation. And they may be already put the big X on that on that box. But until I knew, that's all I can suggest, because I don't know if it can be done or if it just they don't want it to be done. But and then the last thing for J.J.P., I would really love to see and maybe maybe Eric Menor's that one. I don't know who it is. I would love to see more of a George Gomez figure.
    17:42
    In the in the development, the creative process on their products. I would love to see somebody that just really knows. Again, it goes back to this theme. I want that one person at JJP that can bat 98% on saying, yeah, that thing's going to work whenever the owners come to them. Hey, we can get this license. We can get this. Or the creative officer going to them and saying, here's 20 themes that we need to focus on trying to get. And oh, by the way, whenever we're developing this Harry Potter Pinball machine, Eric, you're doing a great job here. Here's two things we have to make sure to get in this game here that what you're developing right now, that's not going to work. People are not going to. It's cool because you're a pinball player and you like that, but that's not that's not what we want to. We want to see something else. I think they need a chief creative officer, not one with just a name label, but one is fucking great. And they're hard to come by, but there are really smart people out there that would be able to point you in the right direction. What about Spooky Pinball?
    18:52
    What does Spooky need to do? Yeah. Spooky – it's what they've tried to do in the past. Spooky needs to be willing to grow.
    19:01
    Like it's – it is incongruous to say that you care about what your customers think. Go to the effort of putting in things like jump in the line and then work so hard to stop them from being able to buy your product.
    19:19
    You can't have licenses like this at prices that you're offering them for and then say it's a thousand units, guys. Sorry, I know there's four thousand units worth of demand, but we're spooky. We're the little guy and we just we want to stay in Benton and we don't want to grow. And we you know, it's like you can't have it both ways. People will not like you if you keep doing this. It's not going to work. So the two solutions are the one that the consumers are going to hate would be you raise your prices more and more in order to cut down on the number of people who wanted to buy it but didn't get the opportunity. Now they just can't afford to, which has its own host of problems. Yeah. You recognize, no, Pinball has an inherent value. We can't price it up that high. We can't price it above JJP unless we put more than JJP in it, for example, and be willing to expand. I know it didn't work out the first time around. They felt like they lost control over the QC and stuff. But maybe this means opening up a second manufacturing hub in Chicago and having, you know, accessing that temp worker pool that goes around and rotates through however they do it with all these various pinball manufacturers and just gives you the number of people that you need, the workforce size that you can access to do this. But they, they, that's what I think they need to do. They just, they need to grow again. It's, I get that they're not money motivated and that's fine, but the problem is they're, they're, Hitting way too many home runs to be this small. It's just going to lead to more people being pissed than not. And you can try and comfort yourself by saying, well, those thousand people who got this great value proposition thing that's worth, you know, 3X on the secondhand market are happy with me. But if you've got more people mad at you than happy with you, you still net lost on the be popular model. And since they seem completely beholden to wanting people to like them, that's what you need to do. You got to grow or they're going to hate you.
    21:20
    OK. I don't fully agree with that. I think they could probably stick around with what they're doing now for the thousand years. Oh, the last. Yeah. The last is the villains. And I don't I don't I think theoretically I can see that argument. But the problem is that I've learned that people have such short memories. You know, they feel slighted, but as long as they have a chance to get the next, whatever, they forget. Like, you could, I could offer the best service possible, and somebody else, I could lose money because I'm so fucking great at helping out a customer. And then all of a sudden, somebody dangles a carrot six months down the line, and they forget everything that I've done for them, and vice versa. I've seen dealers do the shittiest jobs possible and make everything a nightmare. And that person will go right back to them because they have what they want. So I wish it were that way, but I've lost a lot of my faith in us humans in general in that respect. So for me, I think Spooky Pinball, because they could do that even if they want to do a thousand. Maybe they just tweak around the pricing or I don't. But if they want to stick it at 1,000, they can stick it at 1,500. Maybe they edge it up a little bit. Maybe they make it a long-term go. But in the short term, what I would love to see Spooky Pinball to take it to the next level for me personally, I think this would be a tough ask because they have a tight-knit group. But I would love to see them continue getting those themes if you want to continue to be talked about. The themes are where it's at and what all you're putting in the game, artwork, topper, all that stuff. So make sure you're hitting on all sellers there. But I think it would be advantageous to really pull in a dynamite engineer to join your group. And that dynamite engineer would not necessarily be the designer. You guys do so much team based stuff anyway to have another set of hands and genius to help develop some of these mechs that you're wanting to. And you're wanting to load these games down and you've got all these other things. I'd love to see you continuing to be and you're you're being innovative. But to have another engineer to help with that innovation, to help with some of the layouts, some of the materials, angles and different things like that. I think it would be awesome for you to extend yourself to have that extra set of hands that can help just bring all of your stuff over the top. Because I would love to see some diversification with some layouts and taking some chances. They've packed a lot of games. Take Evil Dead, for instance. They packed a lot of games, but they're duplicating a lot of stuff that's been done before. The mechs that pop up, the little play field, the drop bank that drops down, the drop target that looks like shotgun casing. That's a clever thing. But a lot of it has been done. They're not trying to do anything that is just we've never seen anything like that before, in my opinion. So maybe, you know, trying to find that Harrison Drake of the world or the Elliot, you know, trying to find that that just that killer engineer would be interesting to see.
    24:52
    What about Chicago Gaming Company I start this one Just build some games Figure out what you want to be Do you want to be a pinball company You want to sell your company to me Call me We talk What do you want to be You had a good thing going there But there's only so many remakes that can be done. And because you weren't as efficient and maximizing as you could be, some of your eggs got stolen by the foxes around that industry. And they didn't make as good omelets as you could have made. You're the rooster. Protect your hands, baby. You had a good thing. So I would say figure out what you want to be. If you're wanting to be a pinball manufacturing company, dump in the resources and the time to make yourself that. You had your own niche guaranteed 1,000 to 2,000 units a year.
    25:53
    And other people are stealing your thunder because you're not putting enough into that. That's what I'd like to see from Chicago Gaming Company.
    26:07
    What about you, Dennis? Yeah, I was going to say the build speed was mine. I mean, there's probably a good argument on the development cycle as well, but the thing about CGC, but I think they're starting to lose it, was they had this reputation of being the best at building, that they built a tape of a game, better quality than anyone else in the industry. But when you don't ever get anything out, it's just it's everything. It feels like it's gotten more and more tedious, like as it's gone along, like there were all sorts of weird delays with Monster Bash, which didn't make a lot of sense from the outside. And then Cactus Canyon was even worse. Terrible, terrible communication, terrible. You know, once they got the games out, then there was a whole mess with the Lyman code and how long that whole thing took. And, you know, but all the games, like when people get them in their hands, they like them. They like Pulp Fiction. They like the remakes. They have such an opportunity. If they could just be, I'm not even going to say fast, just act like you care. Just like be mediocre. But instead, it feels it feels like nobody gives a shit. It's just sort of like it happens and their quality is there. So in a way you feel like, well, the people building it seem to care, but the whole company seems like, eh, I guess Pinball is still a thing. Eh, we know how to do stuff in it. Eh, okay, let's turn out some new Merlins finally. I don't get it. It's so weird to me. They have all this stuff that does well, and it seems like they're completely unimpressed by it. I don't know. So yeah, just be faster. That's all I know. Some of these companies are kind of stuck in yesteryears as well. They overvalue things that mattered in the 90s, but that's why I think we're seeing Spooky and even Barrels. These newer companies take this uptrend pretty quick because they're identifying in real time what people want and they produce that. They don't bank on, well, you know, it's almost like the Jersey Jack mentality. Like, well, we made Pirates of the Caribbean because I remember when I was a dealer, Stern sold a bunch of them Pirates of the Caribbean. That is not good decision making. That's not like that's being stuck in yesteryears. You got to advance with what's happening now. I'd like to see them take that into the 21st century here in CGC. Barrels of fun.
    28:43
    In video games, there's an expression when you're like doing really bad, you're losing all the time. Let's say you're playing like a Dark Souls game and the response for a lot of people will be get good. You just need to get good.
    28:57
    I'm going to say for barrels, what they need to do is launch good. So in the sense that like Labyrinth, you know, the game's ready, all that stuff came out great. But already as of sophomore and junior effort, when we include Winchester, few things are concerned to me with barrels. One, they ain't stern. You don't be launching a game with bare bones code. That will not fly for an upstart. That was a huge mistake, and it really cost on Dune. They're lucky that that Dune rebounded because of the excitement of Winchester, because otherwise I think they would have ceased production, and it wouldn't have shocked me if they were 20% lower sales than they ended up with. And I think that was mostly Winchester that got people looking at their company again. The other thing is build quality. A lot of complaints I'm seeing on build quality on those Winchesters and on those Dunes. Uh uh you don be like how spooky was when they started You do not want that rep because that is a really hard stigma to shake off So they need to buckle down and as good as it is to be like having 50 games ready to go when you announce I love it I respect it They getting good themes They know theme immersion really well but you got to have some quality Again back to our main episode you not Ferrari You can get away with having trash quality because you don have that recognition You don command that premium So get good That's some tough love there, Dennis Kriesel. I like that. I like their stuff, but there are just way too many people who love them who are saying, eh, I've had to have like five things, like this stuff ain't working right. Winchester's going out with spaghetti wire everywhere, just like amateur hour stuff. Guys, I know that you're new, but I'm saying it, like that's the thing to fix. Yeah, their heart is definitely in the right place. Their brain's in the right spot. That's why they've made such a move coming out as the new company here. They've done a lot right. Yeah, I would say for barrels, my thing would be they're so fresh and new, though. They're just young Padawan. And they really are just is it even fair that they're in this fight? I mean, it's not. But if my if my words of advice in this segment are to, you know, about enduring and having victory, the Sith don't care that they don't know how to fight. Sorry, pick up the lightsaber and fight. That's your role. I'm sorry that you didn't get to train. But this is the reality that we are in. So I have to out of fairness, I have to I have to say it that way. Because I as I know that company and stuff, they they really do care and they're really trying with every might that they have.
    31:49
    But they're still so new. It's just tough to get that ball rolling. Who says pinball is easy other than everyone who used to say pinball is easy? Yeah, and they are continually trying, but I don't envy. They're the reason I do not envy being a pinball manufacturer, because even with all the best intentions, there's still things that make it so much more difficult than an established system that's been going for 10 to 20 years, like a Stern or JJP or anything. So what I would tell them is keep building, keep building strong, build your foundation. You need a good foundation for anything in the future. So do not overextend yourself.
    32:41
    Do what you do to the best of your ability and just one of the best out there. And if I just don't want to see any company that like has to, well, we got to keep up with this wheel, this hamster wheel, or else there's not going to be any power to run the wheel anymore. It's like, well, I would hate to see them run faster than their feet will allow, more so than just jogging and making sure your strides are the best they can be.
    33:19
    And they'd be like, well, maybe that doesn't mean I can finish the race. Maybe it means you can't finish the race.
    33:26
    But I don't, I'm trying to think of something, another way to say it. But just make sure your shit is great. Make sure you're making great decisions and pivot where you need to build a manufacturing company.
    33:48
    I don't know what that takes because I couldn't imagine trying to hire and train and have all these people. I couldn't imagine. But maybe that means you've got to pull in another person that has a ton of experience. With some of this stuff. But then that's tricky, too, because those people oftentimes are set in their ways, too. So it it is really tough. But I know that it must be tough on top over there from the top down just because of so many decisions that have to be made. So many and practical, fast decision making you have to do. I would say, you know, to go up the next level, don't try to over extend yourself. Focus on what you're doing now and making it great. And anytime you do come out with something, because you know the situation you're in and how difficult it's going to be, make sure you just nail the easy shit. Don't get overly emotional. Don't let your emotion dictate your decisions. Logic logic run it by people who care who are invested financially in caring Focus on those people more than people that are going to give you emotional feedback That shit don pay the bills Focus on structuring and building the foundation and moving forward and that being enough to grow your company for the next five decades
    35:17
    Hopefully that makes sense. American Pinball, the newcomers but not? What would you tell Brian and Ron and crew over there?
    35:29
    I personally would suggest that they don't rely too much on this remake path that they seem to be going down. Really? Okay. I worry that I think there's a fatigue to that space.
    35:45
    It was different when you had CGC barely turning anything out over the years, But now it seems like everybody has jumped on the remake bandwagon. Haggis was trying to do remakes. We had the whole thing with the Funhouse and Pedretti and all that. It's like everyone's turning to this. And I think this is good for them to rebuild some trust. And I think it's fine to do a run of six. But I really think they need to have an eye to the future. And that is doing what we're seeing that's working with Spooky and working with Barrels. Get yourself some licenses. Ideally licenses that have never seen a pinball machine. All like when we heard they had He-Man and exercise some creative muscle there because I think that's going to be the long-term success. I don't – maybe – I mean maybe they can ek out a living as a remake player if the quality is there that they could. But I don't – my guess is that's not what he wants ultimately out of the company. I think he wants it to have its own identity. Being a remake company is not an identity.
    36:44
    So that would be my suggestion is still keep an eye on the idea of actually doing what – We told American Pinball for years to do. Guys, get some licenses. These galactic tank forces and stuff are not going to move. And they barely did it other than Hot Wheels. They just couldn't bring themselves to really do it. They could maybe get an IP or a theme, but it wasn't a commercial IP that anyone cared about. It was just like, that's what I think. Yeah, I think it's great advice, I think, to move to that next level, American Pinball, I'm right with you. I think you've got a blank slate. So in a lot of ways it's really difficult, but a lot of ways you're starting new. And there's nothing to say that you can't – you can do whatever you want to do. There's so many little areas of this industry that aren't really being just dominated. So maybe lean into one of those. Maybe lean into the – I love the idea of the theming stuff. Lean into not only are we going to get some themes, but we're going to get some quirky stuff, some cult classic stuff, because maybe we only want to make 500 to 1,000 units, but we're going to get all the assets to them, and we're going to be unique. We're going to try some different things in these games, and we're going to load them down, but then maybe try to dominate in the customer service build quality arena, Because we know that this industry is very close-knit, obsessive type of niche hobby. And these people will support anyone. They will get behind anyone who they feel like is one of us. So if you can get into – and you've already started that by who you're adding, like the electric pinball, electric playground people. You've got some inside people that are already in the hobby. So I think you can really go a long way by getting some quirky little themes, loading games down, and just being the ultimate like we're going to take care of it. We're going to take care of it. You don't have to worry about anything that happens this game. We're going to take care of it. Be the initial American Pinball that we become accustomed to with Houdini. Houdini's weird, but they make a damn solid game. Oktoberfest is a weird-ass theme, but they make a damn solid game. So you can be that, but then add IP on top of it. Just like Dennis said, we've all been saying that you can succeed by just doing that. There's nothing wrong with that and grow from there. But if you come out with a product and it's shit, you set yourself back the next two or three products. So good luck coming out of that hole. And that's what I would say to, you know, to sell all these manufacturers. You're only as good as your last product. Your next product, no matter how great that thing is, it's going to live or die to a certain degree by what you did before, whether it's initially with sales or whether it's long-term with quality. So American Pinball, you've got the world is your oyster here.
    39:50
    Do with it what you want, but you only have a little window. You've got a little bitty window. So whatever you're doing in that little – this is your grace period right here – You can play around all you want with that little grace period, but this is going to determine this over here.
    40:08
    All right. We're getting close to the last of it here. Pinball Brothers slash Pedretti. We're going to put them under the whole Euro Pinball. We know that Pedretti Gaming does remakes. I would say just quality. If you're going to do the remakes, you can live by these remakes things. I would say if you're going to do a remake for anybody doing remakes, do a remake people want. Create something that people actually want. Give them a reason. They want a remake because it's like what it was in the past, but they have all new materials and it's a new game with some upgrades. Do that in quality, especially if you're selling me anything from overseas. This is all the overseas people. If you're going to sell any product and the majority of your concentration consumer base is in the states, give there a reason for us people in the states to want to keep you in business. Because otherwise, we've got everybody that we need already here in the states. So you're going to have to find a way to have the best damn built machines, the best support. You're going to have to find a reason for there to even be a fucking pinball company outside of the United States. I hate to be harsh, but I feel strongly about that. We fucking perfected it. Figure out a way to keep up at least with that. Or if not, if you're going to make it difficult, then you're just blowing through whatever money you've already had before this industry.
    41:39
    Yes, it's tough with them. I think the easy right answer I would tell them is don't focus on the U.S. at all. You need to just target the European market and let us go because you're not going to succeed here. It's just – it's too hard. How would they succeed there? They don't – at least they don't have the shipping cost issue. Like the problem is you have to pay a premium. You have to pay a premium on their games and there's no – they're already behind the eight ball because you know you're going to get the same – like let's just say it's like coffee and decaffeinated coffee. Of course the decaf, if you want to charge the same price, it's going to taste like crap because you blew up the coffee bean. And I don't even drink coffee and I know that. So in this instance, if you're putting in the same BOM as Stern, but you already have a smaller economy of scale. So your game 8 and Stern 7 Oh but now your game 9 because you had to ship it to the U I don think that the reason people aren buying their games I don think it the main reason but the value proposition is a problem So the short easy answer is quit focusing on the U and only focus on Europe and build your bones there perfecting all the things you said quality and stuff You want my better answer? My better answer is change your strategy. I'm really thinking of Pinball Brothers in particular, but Pedretti as the manufacturing arm. The problem with Pinball Brothers is they don't seem to have any good ideas on design. Because the primary focus is the U.S. market and they don't have people making decisions for U.S. market. They have been living forever on Highways Alien. That's been the only thing that had high success. Here's what I think. There has been, and we talked about this years ago with American Pinball, there is an opening for someone to take and manufacture the ideas and designs of others. Nobody's really doing it. Stern's not going to do it at all at this point. Maybe that's a space you can go in where then there's going to be an expectation of higher costs because of a low volume. But people coming in and saying, hey, I have an idea. I've got 100 buyers for something. Let's talk about you making this come to reality. I think there's a space there that they could do as long as the quality is acceptable enough. But even then, you don't have to have great quality. It just has to be acceptable enough. I think there's a business opportunity there, and that might be the easiest way for them to survive, but I don't think they're along for this world. So the Turner Pinball quick and easy for me would be you've got to where you've got for a reason. Figure out why you're still around making your third game. Continue doing that and very quickly identify why you're not growing faster and fix that. That's all you've got to do is find five brilliant people in this industry and ask them all. And all of them are going to tell you some similar stuff and then focus on that. I would say for Turner, get some license themes. You're walking into the same trap. Yes, 100%. You're walking into the same trap that American Pinball had. Here's the problem with Turner Pinball, in my view. It feels like they bought the deep root assets and they're drip feeding them out now to recoup the investment. You can reuse the designs, but change the themes. Launch the Gladiator game, but theme it on Russell Crowe's Gladiator And get the license to it That what you need to do And you get the sales Yeah Good decision making too Sure If you know you not a marketer find the people you can trust to help you in that way That's Stern Pinball. And then I guess last but not least, Multimorphic.
    45:24
    Focus more on video game themes and less on trying to promote innovation. I think we saw Portal resonated really, really well. That platform and the screen stuff, because video game people are already used to video screen stuff, it already kind of has a natural angle to it. And there's a huge appetite, I think, for video games to be turned into pinball playing machine experiences. They should really be leaning into that. And I mentioned the innovation side. Like I love new innovation and they've done a ton of it and they've won a number of awards for the innovations. But it kind of has gotten to the point where it feels like they're responding to YouTube comments that are negative and they just put that stuff in the next game. So it's like on Portal, oh, now we have ramps that go down on the screen side because people said it was not possible. Like it feels like they're always responding to some criticism and it's like take the ego out of it. Quit just responding to every negative comment. You're never going to please everyone. It's impossible. And the platform, quite frankly, is long in the tooth at this point. So quit. I just wouldn't be talking like the you as part of the selling experience, saying there are modules and you can put more games in. Absolutely. But it's not about the tech anymore. This tech is old. Instead, it needs to be about the themes and the licenses. And they have an opportunity to play in the video game space better than anyone else does. So just lean right into that and fill that void because the Sterns of the world have been way too slow to adapt to it.
    46:58
    I would, if I'm multimorphic or what I think would take that next level, that next step for them is, as Dennis was saying about being long the tooth a little bit, they're going on longer than 10 years for this platform. I would look into your next iteration of it, and I would put all my eggs in that basic, the P4, whatever it may be. I would love to see everything redone. I would love to see an entirely new cabinet. I would love to see new display. I would love to see some re mechs to make them even stronger even better I would love to see a new operating system in general that is still backwards compatible to the modules that you done in the past
    47:48
    I would love to see all of that. And then on top of that, if you really want extra points, if you love the whole innovative thing, do something innovative with that new cabinet that you know your competitors are not going to do. And without getting into details of what that may look like, make it stand out. Make that system stand out because you're doing great with the licenses and you're doing great with now what you're putting into these games physically.
    48:17
    So to rebrand this thing to some extent, redo it all, have some, you don't have to feel too bad about the people in the past that have the old system and they're, they're going to buy every new fucking Stern. So, no, they'll jump over. If you just make the modules backwards compatible, I think they'll be pretty happy with that. So, give us a new system. Give us 8K. Give us whatever it takes to make this thing sleek, sexy. And I don't know. This sounds a little crazy. But I wonder if I wonder if they couldn't put a take the back module out, put another screen back there to make the entire thing a screen and then contract with like Zen Studios or somebody to sell virtual pin.
    49:08
    Things that are built into the I mean, it's all there. Why not start selling virtual pin stuff on top of the catalog that you already have? Is that crazy? Take the back module out, add another. They do this on automobile displays now. They're adding all kinds of screens, so it's like one screen. Just that back module is another LCD screen that looks like one solid screen.
    49:33
    And partner up, license out with Zen or whoever's doing the fucking virtual pinball shit now. And to have a big pack that you can buy. I don't know. That's what I would do with multimorphing. I think there's still a lot that can be done with that company.
    49:50
    All right. That was good. That was fun. I was interested in that. Well, where the listeners leave a Patreon comment and let us know if you liked this. Let us know in the private-ish Discord if we're right or if we're wrong. Yeah. I was wrong on a couple of them, I think. Maybe I was too. I don't know. Bye, guys. See you.