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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 58: We've Been Honeydicked

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 40m·analyzed·Dec 7, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Triple Drain debates X-Men code depth vs. accessibility while calling out delayed Pinball Cup launch.

Summary

Triple Drain podcast Episode 58 features three hosts (Travis, Joel, Tom) discussing recent pinball releases and community news. Key topics include their frustration with the delayed Pinball Cup announcement (promised December, still not launched as of December 5th), detailed analysis of X-Men's code depth and mechanical issues, Metallica (LE) superior design improvements over the original, and broader design philosophy around game depth vs. accessibility. The hosts also discuss sales of games from their collections (Game of Thrones LE, Elvira Premium, X-Men Pro) and tournament play preferences.

Key Claims

  • Stern is launching the Pinball Cup as a tiered competition event with challenges, points, and leaderboards, scheduled for December

    high confidence · Joel and Travis discuss Stern's official announcement of the Pinball Cup with t-shirts and challenges per game, but it hasn't launched as of December 5th recording

  • X-Men code is at version 0.88 and was rushed in production, with most planned features already visible on the playfield

    high confidence · Tom references George Gomez saying code was rushed; they discuss how the code outline shown at Pinball Expo shows most planned features already implemented in game

  • X-Men has mechanical issues including auto-plunge problems and lower left flipper hop, with Stern sending out correction kits

    high confidence · Tom states 'Stern is apparently sending out kits' for auto-plunge issues and mentions people working on mods for flipper hop

  • Metallica LE successfully improved upon the original game in art, sound (remastered in stereo), expression lighting, and code with new modes

    high confidence · Joel states 'Stern managed to do is they genuinely improved it in every single way' with specific examples of improvements

  • Tom sold Game of Thrones LE and Elvira Premium this week for room in his collection

    high confidence · Direct statement: 'I sold Game of Thrones LE to Conrad who does listen to the podcast. and uh i sold my Elvira premium'

  • Save the City mode in X-Men requires hitting all city shots equally leveled (3-6 times each) but gives no on-screen feedback about progress

    high confidence · Extended discussion of Save the City requirements and lack of LCD indication making it nearly impossible to understand without README

  • X-Men's code lacks side objectives or diversions compared to games like Deadpool which benefited from mech suit multiball addition

    high confidence · Tom criticizes lack of 'side modes side things side objectives' and contrasts with Deadpool's mech suit multiball as successful diversion

Notable Quotes

  • “I even went to pin side holy shit...I was legit ready like I was because it's exciting”

    Tom @ ~8:30 — Demonstrates community enthusiasm for Pinball Cup despite the delayed launch, showing emotional investment in Stern initiatives

  • “You would know this if you read the read me...To be honest with you. It's kind of convoluted if you don't realize it's there.”

    Travis @ ~27:00 — Critical point about X-Men's poor in-game documentation of mechanics, requiring external README file to understand gameplay

  • “Give me something to focus on. But yet I love the distractions...That's poetic.”

    Joel @ ~38:00 — Articulates design philosophy preference: core objectives with accessible side quests for varied gameplay experiences

  • “What I'm saying is like we talked about earlier. We're going to have to wait until summertime, really, to even revisit this pin. Give it a fair chance.”

    Travis @ ~35:00 — Suggests X-Men needs 4-5 months of code development before fair evaluation, acknowledging early-stage release

  • “Every single time I did it, it just happened to be lit after I got out of the future either the first or second time. Right. So I feel like there has to be some other limitation.”

    Joel @ ~30:00 — Points to confusing, undocumented mechanics that may have hidden dependencies not explained to players

  • “I cannot think of a reason why you would want to manually plunge X-Men...why did Stern not eliminate the plunger and put a button just like Monster Bash or Looney Tunes?”

    Travis @ ~33:00 — Design criticism suggesting auto-launch button would be superior to traditional plunger for X-Men gameplay

  • “Metallica LE...Stern managed to do is they genuinely improved it in every single way.”

    Joel @ ~45:00 — Strong endorsement of Metallica LE as successful remake/upgrade of classic game

  • “With Metallica, the game, to get to crank it up, you have to get 12 of all four...there's a nuance to the game where you can go one step further”

Entities

Pinball CupeventBen BennettpersonX-Men (Stern)gameMetallica LE (Stern)gameGeorge GomezpersonTravispersonJoelpersonTomperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball Cup designed as tiered leaderboard competition with per-game challenges and t-shirt merchandise; intended to drive engagement but execution delayed

    high · Joel: 'they have t-shirts. They have shirts for it. There's challenges for each game...They kind of explained it...they give an example using Deadpool...hard challenge easy challenge whatever challenge and it's worth so many points...and then depending on what you finish you tier up or down levels'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: X-Men experiencing rapid hype cycle: initial enthusiasm → mechanical issue discovery → code disappointment → player sell-offs within 3-4 weeks of release

    high · Travis: 'This roller coaster of hype about a game, the game's revealed. People are like, this game's incredible...and then people get it and they're like...there's some flipper hop...And then some people get super upset...And then all of a sudden they're like, man, there's some flipper hop...they're just kind of start twiddling their thumbs about code...No, I'm sick of waiting. Gone.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: X-Men lacks side objectives/diversions; core gameplay loop (play missions → go to future → repeat) insufficient to maintain engagement; missing accessible multi-ball generation like Deadpool

    high · Travis: 'they didn't say anything like that there was no like side modes side things side objectives...I want the other things to do if you get bored of doing the main storyline'; contrasts with Deadpool's mech suit multiball addition as successful diversion

  • ?

    design_philosophy: X-Men's Save the City mode requires leveling all four shots equally (3-6 times each) but provides no in-game indicator of progress; requires README documentation to understand

    high · Joel: 'You would know this if you read the readme'; Travis: 'until they add either something in the instant info information or they put something on the LCD to signal how many times or what you've hit, you're out of luck'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.301

0:00
the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right what are you uh you're scratching your chin there travis what are you looking for i just like how i'm the only one celebrating the festivities and the holiday season like i was told this is a christmas episode and i showed up those words nobody said it was anything we okay somebody did maybe it's me maybe i said it was last time we recorded i think was it was like the first or second week of november and i'm should i go change no never tom unless you're taking stuff off but um no it's uh i think i made the comment of like well we'll probably get an episode out before thanksgiving you know that way people have something and uh obviously that Yeah, wrong. So it's yeah. Sorry about that. What I've learned is, you know, we three guys, very different work schedules, very different, you know, family schedules. We could not get anything coordinated. We tried and it just didn't happen. Look, my only fans is taking off. I have to be there for them. You have to. You got it. It's been busy. I have a bunch of foosball tables to sell to Joel. It's like, yeah, bubble hockey, everything. Ski ball. These kind of foosball tables? Yeah, I love ping pong. I was told that the pinball market is just crashing and everything's like going to hell in a handbasket. So, you know. You look for a new job yet? Isn't it more popular than ever, though? Well, you know, if you read online, apparently nothing's selling. So, yeah, I guess. I just sold two games this week. We need to talk about that. We need to talk more about that. But, yeah, let's do it. I don't want to, Joel. I don't want to be three friends drinking Winter Jack and talking about how it's the holiday season.
1:55
And we can talk about pinball during that, too. We need to talk about the Whopper Chopper. Let's go through this list of things we need to talk about. We need to talk about Metallica thoughts. So we're going to have the production meeting now. Evil Dead. Evil Dead thoughts. I was going to mention Looney Tunes. Are you drinking like Travis and I? No. No, I'm... He's having a ginger ale or something. We're good. I think that's it. Is that good? I think we're good. I went with the yingling. We ready to go? Didn't you have a rush beer? I did, but... Sorry, Joel, we're distracting. I still want to save it. Go ahead and just roll the intro. It's okay. Joel's going to talk forever. Don't worry about it. We're three guys who like to talk and ball. So we came up with a club for a day. We're Joel and Travis, got my tongue involved And we call ourselves Triple Train We're Triple Train We did it. We did it. Great job, everybody. Tom, you said you sold two games. What games did you sell? Why are you selling them? Was it easy to sell them? Mainly for room, but I sold Game of Thrones LE to Conrad who does listen to the podcast. and uh i sold my alvira premium okay okay so two stern games why i remember i remember that was you wanted that game for a long time why did it why is it leaving the collection why isn't it sticking around why is it staying that's the question oh no reverse card joel yeah I can't answer that you should have kept it for the pinball cup you probably could have used that game oh wow I'll go find it somewhere the pinball cup you guys heard about that? the thing that they've been honey dicking us about thanks for getting that every week it's like coming in December now it's like coming soon like where is it I was so far. All your games because the pinball cup is coming. Do not hesitate. Joel, update all your game. What is the pinball cup, Joel? That's a great question. I don't know. I the problem is I know the guy responsible for it. I'm not I'm not trying to call him out in a negative way. But Ben, Ben Bennett Stern, who I know listens to this. Such an awesome dude. I know he's he's very much responsible for a lot of insider connected stuff. so I'm assuming you got a big part in this but they advertised it as some sort of competition here in December I'm assuming it's based on either score achievements points something I don't know I think I was really excited like December 1st came it was Monday we're like okay we're ready we're ready to like rock and then like out of bed ran down into the basement and turned on all your games i actually okay joel i was honeydicked i will admit as soon as i logged in did i look at my work email first thing in the morning no no i did not you know what i did i looked at the stern pinball facebook to see if they announced it i looked on the website to see what's going on i looked on reddit i looked everywhere i even went to pin side joel i even went to pin side holy shit yeah so yeah i was and then and then when i realized it wasn't going on next thing i did got on the text message with you guys just in all caps where's the pinball cup yep like i was legit ready like i was because it's exciting like the ideas that they have with it and it said coming in december so i was just assuming december 1st but you know maybe that's tom and tom and mine's fault maybe maybe it's not like coming no it's not our fault or second or in december i guarantee you there's 31 days in december yeah that's what i mean as soon as we get this podcast out it's probably even before tomorrow so we're recording this drop tomorrow recording this 10 p.m eastern time on december 5th so if this we already do that already yeah i'm not worried so what is the pinball cup it's like a tiered event right to where They kind of explained it. They have t-shirts. They have shirts for it.

Joel @ ~50:00 — Explains Metallica's layered design that provides both accessibility and strategic depth through stacking mechanics

Conrad
person
Ray (Metallica designer)person
Carlosperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Game of Thrones LE (Stern)game
Elvira Premium (Stern)game
Deadpool (Stern)game
Jaws (Stern)game
Godzilla (Stern)game
James Bond (Stern)game
Monster Bash (Williams)game
Looney Tunes (Stern)game
Rick and Morty (Stern)game
Pinball Expoevent
Pinsideorganization
Monicaperson
  • ?

    design_philosophy: X-Men uses outdated plunger design when auto-launch button would be superior and eliminate mechanical variance; Travis questions why Stern didn't adopt Monster Bash/Looney Tunes button design

    high · Travis: 'I cannot think of a reason why you would want to manually plunge X-Men...why did Stern not eliminate the plunger and put a button just like Monster Bash or Looney Tunes?'

  • $

    market_signal: Tom selling X-Men Pro, Game of Thrones LE, and Elvira Premium; citing collection space; X-Men mechanical/code issues appear to be accelerant for divestment

    medium · Tom: 'Mainly for room, but I sold Game of Thrones LE...and uh i sold my Elvira premium'; later selling X-Men Pro citing code completion and wanting to see future development before repurchase

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Cup announced with strong FOMO narrative ('coming in December') but vague details about mechanics; community over-interpreted December 1st launch based on limited information

    high · Joel: 'they advertised it as some sort of competition here in December'; Tom/Travis assumed December 1st despite vague messaging; hosts confirm multiple attempts to find details (Facebook, website, Reddit, Pinside)

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ray (designer name mentioned) credited with Metallica LE improvements; X-Men attributed to George Gomez under rushed production timeline

    medium · Joel references 'Ray did to metallica'; Travis: 'George kept saying that it, you know, it was rushed in production'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Pinball Cup announced for December but not launched as of December 5th recording; hosts describe aggressive FOMO marketing followed by missed deadline

    high · Tom: 'I was honeydicked...I even went to pin side...It was coming in December...where's the pinball cup?' Joel: 'they advertised it as some sort of competition here in December...maybe December 1st came it was Monday...and then like out of bed ran down into the basement'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Metallica LE successfully demonstrates how code improvements and design additions (modes, ladder system, stacking mechanics) create layered gameplay with both accessibility and depth

    high · Joel: 'Stern managed to do is they genuinely improved it in every single way...The sound package, they've remastered, obviously, all that. It's in stereo'; extensive discussion of grave marker/coffin/snake/sparky stacking mechanics providing strategic depth

  • ?

    product_concern: X-Men code at 0.88 appears mostly feature-complete with minimal roadmap beyond current implementation; insufficient depth for competitive players

    high · Joel: 'It's very clear...I bet there's going to be some sort of wizard mode...there's a Master Mold and Senator Kelly'; 'everything I'm seeing on that outline is already is already blocked into the game'; Travis: only 2 unimplemented inserts visible (Master Mold, Senator Kelly)

  • ?

    product_concern: X-Men shipped with mechanical defects (auto-plunge inconsistency, lower left flipper hop); Stern proactively distributing correction kits

    high · Tom: 'I'm glad they're fixing that' re: auto-plunge kits; 'There's already people working on mods to try to get rid of that flipper hop'; Travis criticizes plunger design as fundamentally flawed for this game

    • 6:29
    There's challenges for each game, is my understanding. Yeah. Like you have to complete certain tasks. I think it's kind of like what they did with the John Wick contracts, which disappeared. Right. So, yeah. Well, it's I think the way that they put it on the website, too. It's like the first like they give an example using Deadpool. so it's like um like hard challenge easy challenge whatever challenge and it's worth so many points and i guess you have like so many challenges per game and then depending on what you finish you tier up or down levels and you go against other people in leaderboards i think there's no need to play because i'm fucking winning it all okay that's all i know noted yeah you don't even have to try everybody i give yeah do you have retiring i know tomorrow tom you're you mentioned tomorrow you're getting your metallica le it's coming uh it's going to be dropped out tomorrow so that'll be a great thing to take into the weekend yeah yeah um do you still have your x-men pro it's right here oh well it's okay i see is it for sale still or no sale still for sale all right why are you here that dropping the price okay why are you selling it yeah I think that's a good question. Because I've already completed the future. I've already beaten the game. He's already seen it. He's been there. Did you see that Pinball Company tutorial? You know, just keep ripping. That's how I did it. Really? Drop it like it's hot, man. Yep. You guys can't leave. Yeah, you've got to watch Travis's video. Asap. And then I was just like, what if I do the opposite of what Joel told me? That's exactly what I thought. How long can I stay in the future? And I was like, oh, shit. That's what I don't understand with the new code, okay? So, like, you actually have to have the readme file to understand what all the characters do in the future, correct? Yes. As of right now. As of the current code, yes. Okay. I don't think it shows up. It doesn't show up on the LCD screen. Yeah. I don't think so. You just whip it out, you know? It's like nobody knows what Gambit does or Bishop or anything, except for you, if you read the readme. so yeah when you're ready to drop the hammer you just trap up you just stare into their soul like just turn around look at them just be like i read the fucking read me and then you just let it rip that's what you do yeah established dominance uh yeah drop the hammer that's like peeing on the game joel just this is mine now this is mine now because i read the file i committed to the eula or whatever it is and I got that readme file. Have you ever done that, Joel? No.
    9:12
    Gotta try it sometime. Invite me over sometime and I'll make it happen. I can only imagine. That's what Tom does with his LEs when he sets them up. You're mine now. All my buyers now are like, oh. Why does your coin box smell of piss? Now I know why he's selling. That Game of Thrones is coming back on your doorstep. Really quick now. Oh, man. I've never peed in any of my... Sorry, Conrad. Do you have a flood in your basement? No. No, it's just Tom. Well, okay, so Metallica... No, it's just male dominance. No, let's finish X-Men. X-Men, I will... We already did finish X-Men. Both Tom and I did. You finished the code, and I understand the code right now... Did you finish it? No, I have not finished it. How close have you gotten to beating the future? I don't have any more. My goal... I don't even know if it's like... When I had it... Is that not X-Men behind you? What is that? What do you got? Looney Tunes? Is that Looney Tunes? I don't know. I mean, that's kind of like X-Men. Let me look.
    10:12
    They have balls. Okay, yeah. I see it now. There's balls. No, X-Men, what I will – okay, I've had a lot of people reach out because it's weird. This roller coaster of hype about a game, the game's revealed. People are like, this game's incredible. Oh, my gosh, it's going to be so good. And then people get it and they're like, oh, I love the way this shoots. and then all of a sudden they're like, man, there's some flipper hop with the lower left flipper. Oh, man, my plunge isn't 100%. And then some people get super upset about that, about mechanical issues. And then they're just kind of start twiddling their thumbs about code. They're like, okay, the code's fine, but where is it? Is there more? And then all of a sudden people are like, no, I'm sick of waiting. Gone. And it's just this roller coaster over the course of like three, four weeks. And it's crazy. This hobby's crazy. that's pinball like that's pinball that's that's i mean that's what it's been right i like the game if i mean if nobody's gonna buy i i've had some people reach out you know there you go sell the shit out of this game basically there we go you know tire kickers yeah but give me that piss so ready for it are they like trying to like say something like um i'll give you 5500 The first question is always, why are you selling it? Yeah. And the real answer is, why do you want to buy it?
    11:35
    I should. Yeah, that's what I do all the time. If somebody asks me why I'm selling a pen, I'm like, why do you want to buy it?
    11:43
    I'm going to start doing it. I'm going to start leading with that. I mean, I'm not talking about with my actual company I work for. I'm talking about personal. That's going to work real well with you. I mean, if somebody literally calls this up with my actual company I work for, why are you selling the pen? I'm like, I don't know, to make a living? Like, what do you want me to say? Is this the pinball company? I want one of the pinballs. Why are you buying one? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I will say, so X-Men, personally, I miss it. I really loved the way it shot. Like, I had a lot of fun with the game. But I also, when it left the house, I was like, I'm looking forward to playing this again in six months. You know, like, I want to see where this code develops to. um unfortunately since it's left the house um you know i there was a presentation with uh pinball expo and they showed like an outline of the code of what they're planning on doing with the code and there wasn't a ton in that outline that isn't already in the game so i'm very curious what like big you know it's like big pieces big structural pieces of the code inserts that uh are above that like, I don't know, tic-tac-toe, bingo thing? Yeah, I'm trying to remember. It's not Namor. It's like... I'll look at it right now. Oh, yeah, please. Senator Kelly. Nimrod. Nimrod's in the game now. So it wasn't when I had it. But it's very clear. It's like, okay, I bet there's going to be some sort of wizard mode when you complete all the missions. There's a Senator Kelly and then there's a Master Hold with like a Sentinel? Master Mold. That would be the... That's old. Excuse me. I can't read. And even the meta has kind of changed a little bit now, Joel. So ever since they put Nimrod in it, now the way that I approach it, I don't think there's any other videos out about it except for maybe Carlos when he had an 86-hour stream on the game or whatever. It's still going right now. Yeah, it's still going to this day. But, yeah, so the way that I approached it was just to do a couple of challenging modes or missions to get to the future. And then never leave the future. Stay there for as long as possible. Access Nimrod. Keep playing the shots. Keep going. Don't leave. Yep. That's how I approached it. This is the problem. And I realize the three of us are very different. You two are more similar than me. That's for sure. And what I mean is. While you're listening, I want it to be on the record. This is Joel saying this is the problem. Not me. I'm not saying it's a problem. It's very clear. how different we approach the ball machines and like what what gets you excited because i want a game that's that's broad not deep i like broad and the reason it's just because my i can't keep the ball above the flippers long enough to experience deep and and that's something where um you know not like godzilla is a perfect example and not in a bad way but it's like I know some of those final modes I'm never going to see. Like I'm happy when I get to a tier two battle. I've gotten to Planet X one time. You know, it's like. I think this game is very like beginner to mid level. Like you're saying. Yes. Yeah. But that's the thing. Even my skill level, I've seen everything in the game. And so that's why I'm looking for give me more things that are close to the start button. And what I mean by that is like like Deadpool made a huge there was a huge change when mech suit multiball was added, because now all of a sudden there's something that you can kind of divert your focus to or like you can kind of chip away at that at any moment. And that was what bothered me when I saw the the layout of the of the diagram of the code. they didn't say anything like that there was no like side modes side things side objectives that they were going to start sprinkling in to the core structure of the code of you know play the missions go to the future play the missions go to the future like i i that's what i want i want the other things to do if you get bored of doing the main storyline what you want is to know how to start save the city well yes i've done it i've done it and i know i know it involves hitting every shot but it doesn't choreograph it very well and you don't yes yes i yeah there's a lot of people that get tripped up on how to actually do it yeah like a lot of us are like how do we actually tell people how to do it tom or just let it stay a secret i still don't know you still don't know no no are you saying i'm like the only one here that you might be the only one you hit all the city shots i don't know if carl knows you hit all the city shots but the challenge is the fact that the the uh x jet shot and the mansion shot don't count as one shot those count as two separate shots two separate shots that you also need to level up yeah which is near impossible to do how do you hit the mansion shot without hitting what the hell is the mansion shot so you hit the XJET, which goes up and whoop on the side. On the danger room. Danger room ramp is also. So the ramp that's coming towards you into the danger room, that's called the mansion shot. How do you hit that without hitting the XJET shot? How do you do that?
    17:11
    You have to fall in there. Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that the ramp that comes around. Isn't that the mansion shot? The mansion.
    17:18
    What do you think it is? I thought they were just going ahead and just counting it as the danger room ramp. And we were just getting our verbiage. Either way. I mean, the way it's described is you have to hit all the city shots, and then you're supposed to level them up equally. And that's the other challenge. Honestly, I've been to Save the City a handful of times. Every single time I did it, it just happened to be lit after I got out of the future either the first or second time. Right. So I feel like there has to be some other limitation of like it doesn't even – Like you have to visit the future first? Yeah, until you do something. Just think of it this way. It acts like a total annihilation. It's very hard to pick up, but if you envision it like that, that's the way it is. So you have to hit three shots on everyone? Three of everything, yeah. There you go. I just hope they add you. But it has to be equal, though, because I think if you go above it, right? I think you can go all the way up to five or six shots, and if you happen to go above it, then the other one has to catch up, I think. Like, I'm not 100% positive, but yeah. Either way, it's nothing. It's just complete ambiguity. Like, you have no idea what's going on, and all of a sudden, boom, that center ramp or that center shot is blinking yellow, and the same city insert is blinking yellow. So until they add either something in the instant info information or they put something on the LCD to signal how many times or what you've hit, you're out of luck. Yeah, they have like the level up indication in the lower right hand side or towards the right hand side of LCD. But it happens. It happens so fast that there's no way for you to catch it while you're playing. I thought the level up was the beast lab. I thought it was has nothing to do with Save the City. No, it's a separate thing. It's a separate thing. You can also level up your your shots, too, which is part of Save the City. Well, maybe this is. You would know this if you read the read me. I don't think it's on there. To be honest with you. It's kind of convoluted if you don't realize it's there.
    19:21
    To me, it's like I think I'm good on CERN for addressing the auto-plunge issues. They're apparently sending out kits. Hopefully that fixes most of it. My main takeaway from the auto-plunge thing was I cannot think of a reason why you would want to manually plunge X-Men. There's only a few places the ball would come out. Like I don't even as a tournament player, I don't see it being advantageous to short plunge. Like, no, I just get the ball to your right flipper. So if 100 percent of the time you want that ball to fully complete the path, in my opinion, it's like, why was it not a button then? Why was it? Why did Stern not eliminate the plunger and put a button just like Monster Bash or Looney Tunes or anything? Rick and Morty, just like an auto launch. Boop, hit the button and go. And I understand I have faith that they could design one that would still fit within their current standard cabinet.
    20:19
    But that, like, to me, when I had the game, I never manually plunged. I was always using the action button to auto plunge.
    20:27
    And so I feel like that would make a designer's job easier, too, because you're only having to account for, hopefully, a very controlled launch. But just a thought. So I'm glad they're fixing that. the lower left flipper bounce, some people are talking about moving that wire form. There's already people working on mods to try to get rid of that flipper hop. But I just, I really hope they don't give up on the code. I hope the code continues to progress, and I don't know if that's something, if there's any way they could just sprinkle a little more in there, just fill it out a little more. I mean, it's still super early, though. I mean, Gomez said over and over again. Yeah, it's only .88 code. Well, not only that, but George kept saying that it, you know, it was rushed in production. So naturally, naturally, everything else is going to be a little bit further behind. So it's almost like for this game. I mean, I know, man, the next game is probably going to be like one point three code. Yeah, it's just one of those things. Like, I know I got to watch my words carefully here. So somebody's not like, well, you're just shilling it now. But I'm just you know, the reality is, is like we talked about earlier. We're going to have to wait until summertime, really, to even revisit this pin. Give it a fair chance. Yeah, when we're looking at it from a co-op perspective. But I get it because they put it out like this. They're taking money, MSRP money that's the same amount as like Jaws and Godzilla and just games that are completely fleshed out. So I get it, like, fully. What the price is going to be more than? What scares me, though, is. Do you hear this? Yes, you're doing something crazy. What is going on here? I don't know. It's called technology.
    22:08
    Is it your phone? His phone started. What's it playing? Are you your Ripper X DVD or something? I don't know. I guess it thought it said, hey, Siri, I played it. Oh, shit.
    22:21
    You just set that off on every single listener. So that's listening to this. Edit that out. Sorry, phone didn't react. Okay. How about Metallica? That's what we need to talk about. My last statement, what I was going to say is – If we're going to stay on X-Men, I'm pouring myself another drink. All I'm saying is like James Bond. James Bond came out and it was super shallow code. There was nothing in it. But there was a gazillion inserts on the play field that made it very clear how much more they were going to put in that game. Right. There was so – but that's the only thing that scares me a little bit about X-Men. As far as I know, there's only like two inserts that don't have something right now. And it's what Tom pointed out, Master Mold and Senator Kelly. And then for them at Expo to show the outline of the code and not to have like, oh, we have a whole nother page, but we're going to keep that a secret or something. It's like everything I'm seeing on that outline is already is already blocked into the game. So I'm just I'm very curious. I'm honestly just from a personal standpoint, it's a it's a theme that I love. I really enjoyed the way it shot I really loved the way it looked but the code is the biggest hesitation I would have for that to ever enter my collection and you know I got time I'm happy to wait you don't have one Joel what? you don't have an X-Men I do not but I'm saying I'm happy to wait to even consider buying one I mean if you want an X-Men I know who has one for sale I know a guy I know a guy. Does he smell like piss?
    24:00
    No, it's a pro, so it has not been pissed on. Only the LEs get pissed on. He only asserts dominance on the LEs. Got it. He's looking at himself in the back glass while he does it.
    24:10
    Damn straight. He just takes his pants down and rubs his ass on the pros at the... That's what he does. All right. We just lost all our listeners. I was just thinking a lot about code. If they still listen to us, Tom, after Joel talked about his nuts like two episodes ago, We're fine. We're home free. I've already apologized for that. I don't know if we went down in listens, but thanks for everybody sticking. What kind of incision do they make, Joel? What do you... It's a star. What do you think they carve in? Do they spread the twig and berries, or how did they do this? I was numb, Travis. I wasn't staring at it. I wasn't watching. I figured, did they have stirrups? No, there's no stirrups. Was your legs just dangling off the end of the table? No, I was laying on a table. Yes. Oh, so your legs were there. Okay. Yeah. Did you hear another patient screaming in the room next door before the procedure None of that luckily Did your wife drive you to the procedure My wife drove me to and from the procedure yes That was nice of her Did you get a milkshake? Considering she was the one who wanted it. I didn't have tooth surgery. No, I did no milkshake. Did you get a milkshake? I always get a milkshake after any surgery. Like, why not? You go to the doctor and get like a lollipop and a milkshake. Did they snip the red wire, the blue wire? They snipped both wires, Tom. They sent them both.
    25:33
    Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about code. I know we talk a lot about code, and we've talked a lot about what makes games challenging to be appealing to so many different players. And in my opinion, there's only a handful of games that truly have done it right.
    25:52
    And Metallica. Metallica, that game was here. Metallica LE. What an amazingly beautiful game. And it's just one of those things where if you have an original Metallica, you know the game's great. You know the game's awesome. There's a reason it's been in your collection for a gazillion years.
    26:12
    But what Stern managed to do is they genuinely improved it in every single way. Thank you. How so? What did you get? Monica brought me brownies. No, go ahead. That's really kind. Hi, Monica. Hey, did you bring a napkin? Oh, wow. I mean, at least he started with a thank you. He's going to get frosting everywhere. Eat it like a savage, I guess. Okay, go ahead, Joel. Every single way. I felt like the Snap Your Flippers is incredible.
    26:48
    It's incredible, but it also speeds up the game. The art is amazing. The sound package, they've remastered, obviously, all that. It's in stereo, so the sound is fantastic. the addition of the expression lighting michelle make me some damn bro that did come out incredible um yeah your wife come on she needs uh mine where's mine yeah what the good line hey this is what happens when you're a trophy husband guys i tell you this all the time yeah you earned those brownies yeah let me tell you i'm like the house husband gotta make dinner um raymond's listening raymond's listening to this right now and he's like shut up guys just keep telling me why metallica is great okay okay so joel what were you talking about yeah what what ray did to metallica i mean we gave a crap that he just copy pasted but honestly i mean he had to kind of rebuild the whole game but then even the modes that he added um it's just that game is so much fun. And once coming back to that, like, give me, give me something to focus on. But yet I love the distractions as in, okay, if in my head, I'm thinking, okay, I want to get this multi ball going. And then all of a sudden I look down and I'm like, oh, I'm one hardwired shot away from starting hardwired. I might as well, might as well hit that shot. And then you just locked up my brain there. You say, give me something to focus on, but I love the distractions. What I'm saying is poetic. It's, it's, Every game, right, has some core goal. Some core, like, usually it's modes. You're just work your way through. Oh, okay. So you're meaning, like, you have your core thing, but then you have, like, your side quests. So the core thing in Metallica would be crank it up, right? That's the, you are trying to get to crank it up. Hopefully the multi-balls help you. Don't think about points. I don't think about points. Don't think about points. Like, in my goal. Don't think about points. Okay. Don't think about points. I know that's hard for you. But I'm saying, like, when I step up to Metallica, I'm thinking, okay, crank it up is the goal. But if I can start a multiball, it's going to help me get to crank it up faster. But the fact that they added in that almost like that ladder system in the way where it's like, okay, the blue arrow is on the left ramp. Oh, I've already hit Snake. I've already hit Sparky. Let me just grab a grave marker. That way it'll complete. Get that update, Tom. Yep. That way it'll complete. Is the pinball cup going now? Yeah, right now. Just launched. I'm worried my jaws is broken now my jaws is now for sale everybody I'm sure I'm sorry Joel you're going to get through your talk here we're good imagine getting interrupted while you're talking I have no idea what that is no idea what where were we? sorry Joel everybody's going to be mad at me arrows to the right ramp Where are we on right now? I'm lost. I would love to get into it. I'm muting myself right now. Just shove that brownie in your face. Oh, they're already gone. Both are gone.
    30:00
    Okay. With Metallica, the game, to get to crank it up, you have to get 12 of all four. You have to get 12 grave markers, coffins, sparkies, and snakes, and then crank it up as lit. And you could hit each one of those shots individually, but that's a lot of shots. But there's a nuance to the game where you can go one step further, where you can essentially place shots on the other main shots so that you're kind of getting double or triple your value per shot. And there's a whole nother layer to that where if you put a snake, a grave marker and a sparky all on one shot, then you can hit the shot again. It'll start to hurry up. You hit the coffin and then you've locked in that shot. So that shot for the rest of the game or until you get to seek and destroy, that shot is giving you the best bang for your buck you can ask for. And it's just what I'm saying, though, is at least for me and the way that I play, I love how I have an objective. But then all of a sudden I'm just seeing other things where it's like, let me do this real quick. Let me do that real quick. And it just adds this nuance, this constant decision making in my head of what do I want to do right now in this moment? Oh, I'm only a few shots away from that multi-ball. Let me save it. Let me work on this. And it just, in my opinion, it made it feel like every time I stepped up to the game, it gave me a different or a very unique playing experience compared to some games, which it's just like, do this mode, do this mode, do this mode, mini wizard mode, do another mode, do another mode, mini wizard mode. Like, oh, and I've realized these modes I can do better than others. So even though there's 10 modes in the game, I'm going to play these three almost every time. Like, there's something about that that I really, I really loved. And I just, I don't know, I had a ton of fun with Metallica. Even though there's no modes in the game, like, it's not a mode-based game, but yet it still drew me in.
    32:01
    And everything I explained, it took me a few times to explain it because it's kind of complicated. But yet my dad steps up to the game. My dad likes Metallica music. And all he needed was Sparky. That's all he needed in that game was Sparky. He streamed with my brother and I the other night. And for two hours, every single time he hit start, it's very clear his only goal was to get Sparky Multiball going and survive. And he was having a blast. He was having a blast. So the fact that that game was designed at a level where you can have one mech that's that engaging for an average player that they keep wanting to play, but yet also has this crazy nuance for intermediate to advanced players to want to attack it in many different ways. But then to go one step further for you tournament nuts, you know, I had Preston over. He streamed it with me. Super skilled tournament player. To see him set up a four-way jackpot and then to get to crank it out, you know, build it up and then hit the 2X to cash out. Like, to have the nuances there for you guys to keep you coming back for more. Just brilliant. Like, it's such a well-done game.
    33:15
    And I don't know. I don't know how, I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's like, that secret sauce, why is that secret sauce so impossible?
    33:23
    Why is it not, like, I think it feels impossible. Why every game can't somehow be that nuanced, that varied, that engaging for so many different audiences. You've got to remember who was the original software encoder on it. Lyman. Yeah. There's a reason why he's considered one of the best, if not the best one to do it. He was always about stuff like that, just building up the perfect risk reward and just kind of knowing how to get you to explore the entire play field. Yeah, that's the biggest thing. And that's the way Metallica really is. And that's what's so exciting about the new release of Metallica. Right. Yeah, because Raymond's been able to add on to that and also polish up a lot of stuff that people don't realize is even polished up. you know, such as how the end of the line jackpots work, you know, and there's other things that could have been exploitable or might have been some scoring those little wonky that's been drawn back a little bit. So, yeah, it's I mean, plus two, it's got what a topper multiball with it now as well. So there's there's a lot of bells and whistles to it. It's I can only imagine it's probably a very fun experience. I've only played like two games on it so far, three games. But, yeah, I think I have not heard of anybody getting the game and being disappointed by the package that that it is, because, I mean, you get the L.E. It has what the expression lights on it. Oh, so nice. Yeah. I mean, beautiful. Yeah. It's it's the one L.E. that I was very tempted to get recently because I was just like, you know, this is this is the whole package. And not only that, you realize you're getting a game that's fully fleshed out, too. Oh, that's the most exciting part, too. It's fully fleshed out pretty much from the get-go. And I'm sure Raymond's going to keep polishing it up a little bit as he sees fit. But for all intents and purposes, it's like it's ready to go. And it's a fun experience for everybody that plays it. A hundred percent. It's not, I mean, yes, I think it's blackened multiball, which is that multiball is going to happen once you've played the four main multiballs. Once you do that, that should be blackened. I don't know if it's a wizard mode or a multiball, but that is not in the game. the one i was talking about is uh what is it injustice for all yeah with the top multiple yeah yeah yeah and i haven't got a chance to see that yet i just know it's there and then i know what it's they got the 72 seasons that's something to do with the stand-ups yeah and switches and you know what teach you what that is if you want to i mean if you care eventually if you can eventually not right now joel i can't i can't do a tutorial right now because eventually we got to get on and talk about Looney Tunes at some point, right? Sure do. Um, but so that's what, I don't know. I just, that, that challenge for a software designer of making code, um, that's the thing and not trying to, I'm not trying to dog on X-Men, but it's just like, you know, when I look at where X-Men code is right now, it's just, it's just so clear. It's like, what are you doing? You're playing missions go in the future. And then you, there's a multi-ball here or there if you need it. Like I just that's I just need I need all the other stuff. And so I compared to Jaws and maybe this is, you know, Tom, you've you've had. So if we look at this year alone, you have X-Men in your house. You had you had John Wick in your house. Yes. You obviously have Jaws. You bought that one.
    36:50
    What other new I mean, you had Godfather, but that was that was last year. What other new games have you owned?
    37:01
    Because what I'm trying to get at is Jaws the only new game. What are you trying to get at, Joel? What I'm getting at is Jaws the only new game. The better question is what game have you not owned recently?
    37:10
    He's owned a lot of these newer games. Exactly. That's why that's a better question. What game have you not owned, Tom? But what I'm saying is the games that he has owned are either for sale or gone. So, yeah, so you still have Jaws. so that's what something there was something about jaws that has kept it there and i know that to me is a game that i feel like i want or almost need to own because of everything i just said it's there's so many different directions you can take that game and they're all done so well it doesn't feel like anything else i mean that's the cool like like like metallica okay yeah the shots are similar to games that that john borg has done but the rule set is completely different than anything else and there's nothing like it okay that's how jaws is and those are those are the games i like where there's just differences in code um i like different play field layouts but Like when games feel, I don't know, when I can turn my brain off and play a game, like I just lose interest, I guess.
    38:23
    Oh, so you want to stay like that mentally, staying mentally engaged or stimulated in that sense is key. Because to me, it's funny that... Like I have my early solid state games where I can turn my brain off sometimes. Ah, okay. Yeah, because there are some times that I like, maybe this is the transition or bringing Looney Tunes, but I feel like Looney Tunes is a game I don't have to overthink it. Just buckle up and have a good time. Just play the game. And sometimes when I come down here, I only have time for one game or I only have time for 10 minutes. I just want to step up to a game, almost find it relaxing, but yet also engaging.
    39:05
    But yet not, I don't want to stress while I'm playing. I just want to have fun for 10 minutes. Like right now, Cactus Canyon, I don't have to overthink anything. Just play the game and have a good time. I mean, it just depends on what you get. Like how do you define fun in pinball? A lot of people define it different ways. Right. It could be an old school solid state such as like Harlem Globetrotters. People just love ripping a spin. Right, exactly. It could be like any old EM like Argosy. We hear that a lot. Like people like that game or, you know, whatever it could be. Right. And then you got others that are rules nuts. Like I know I'm like this. I enjoy getting a game and breaking it down and figuring out, OK, how can I totally break this code? All right. How can I piece this together? If I do this, what is the three to five things that could happen? Sure. And what else could I add on to? That's what I get. Like I get my fun out of pinball, not just the layout, but the idea of what the game is and what the coder and what the software people want me to do based on what the lights are guiding me to based off what the scoring is based off what the shots are returning back to me, like how the designer was like. That's how my brain works. So, you know, not everybody thinks on that level in terms of wanting to worry about the rules. Like sometimes the level people are on is the bright lights, the mech that does something crazy. And that's fine. Like nothing's better than the other. It's just I mean, that's realistic. So it's kind of like you look back at X-Men, right? Yeah. When X-Men got released, nobody was saying, oh, look at the awesome hand mech of the Sentinel. Right. Like there wasn't really that many people talking about that. It was more or less like, oh, look at the unique layout that has the danger room at the side and the offset flippers. Like that was something different that people hadn't seen. You know, if you're newer to pinball, you haven't seen that at all. But if you've been around pinball for years, you might have seen it with Gold Wings or some or whatever that game was called a long time ago. So, yeah, people just get they get their fun in different ways. And that's, you know, that's that's perfectly fine. And I think that's what makes Jaws so unique that when you look at it, like I know the three of us have talked to Elizabeth Gieske a lot and she her mind is sharp. Like she knows what she's doing. I've talked about rules with her and in theory, game theory, dealing with it. And she is sharp. And so there's a reason why when you get that type of brain on it combined with Elwin and you're bouncing off ideas, of course, you're going to you're going to like bake something that's awesome like that, you know, and that's that's really what it boils down to. So, yeah, a lot of it just depends on what is the vision of the designer? What's the vision of the software? Is that cohesive? Does it make sense? Who wins out? Does it go the direction that suits the design, right? Because sometimes we've seen it before. Certain rules and certain decisions, it doesn't seem like it matches up with the actual design of the pen. Like I could think of one off the top of my head, GNR. You know, I've always thought that with the amount of multiballs that would pour out and just the layout didn't feel like that's what should have been happening because there's just total chaos in the bottom third the whole entire time. So it just, you know, it's just really dependent. Like, how does that work? It's very hard to make that cohesive in pinball. I, I totally get it. And it just, I can, I feel like my overall experience in pinball, I'm just continually challenged by what I find fun, what I find engaging. You know, I, I'm, I very much so care about seeing what I, my friends and family find fun, what they find engaging. And what do you, what do you find fun and engaging though? Since you're the one playing, what do you find that's fun to you? Like, what are you drawn to right now? Okay, so first off, the game, if the layout is frustrating to me, like if I feel like there's some shots that are clunky or bricky or just not smooth, like. So every layout you ever play. Wow. No, it's. I get what you're saying. So an example would be Alien. I actually, there was a lot about Alien pinball I liked, but I did not enjoy the way it shot. like I just there was some layout where it's just like okay that hyper uh the cryovac chamber or whatever uh in the upper left like to get that you have to hit it with an upper flipper but the shot to set up the upper flipper is challenging not to mention the shot from the upper flipper is challenging it was just like that that was like it left a bad taste in my mouth I didn't enjoy that aspect of it so to me it's like nope can't own the game because I if I'm not gonna to have if I can't physically enjoy the shots um the heck with that and but yet there's other games where the physical like I really enjoy the shots of x-men that was something that drew me back in it's just shooting the game felt fun um but what am I finding fun it's yeah I like um I like story modes I like modes that that um it's not just do the it's not a super simple thing I like maybe it's stages if that like rush story basically yeah there was no modes in rush that i enjoyed unfortunately the rush that i had it was a while ago and it kicked my butt and i felt like ray actually designed some really amazing things that i never got to see in that game because i was just getting destroyed so this was john borg's fault that's what that's what that's not what i'm saying That's what you're saying. Yeah.
    44:41
    But so that makes sense. I get what you're saying. It makes sense right now. Every single mode in that game is is an episode. You're playing an episode of the cartoon and it's not just like hit seven shots. It's like, you know, it's it's it's more like you got to do this. And then the scene is changing and it's oh, now the bull's following you and you got to do this. And once you do this and it's like changing and I just feel like it's bringing me along. You're saying you feel like you're doing something meaningful is what you're saying. Yeah. Or, you know, Godzilla, when you're attacking these things, maybe it's just the combination of the music and the lighting effects. And you actually feel like you're fighting these creatures. It's these pinball moments kind of thing. While some other modes. He said it, Tom. He said the thing. You got to pay Kinead five bucks. It's a world under glass. some other games though the modes just are just kind of lifeless you know and it's just you just feel like you're just kind of chopping wood or just kind of grinding through it there's some shitting modes out there we can call a spade a spade 2012 sure oh yeah you well you experienced that recently didn't you tom at free play i loved it oh but i'm gonna hit this shot 16 times I'm not trying to poo-poo on things, but like John Wick. Like John Wick, to me, I understand it was early code. But like to me, when I had that game, I cannot tell you any difference between any of the modes. It has a mind of its own, Joel. They're all just, you know, it's just a different color with a different song. But I didn't, like, there was no, it didn't rope me in. It didn't pull me in. I actually played Mando the other night.
    46:35
    Oh, no, Tom. I actually enjoyed that game. I actually have fun with that game. Mando's fine. I like the music to it. The music is fantastic. So what we did was I was over at my buddy's house, and the three of us, we decided to play a co-op game. We're like, we should be able to beat this game. Let's get to This is the Way. Let's do that. And so we actually got very close. We did not. But we were able to see all three wizard modes before the final wizard mode. So we saw every mode. We saw every multiball. The encounters are kind of a grind.
    47:13
    But getting up there and falling down and getting up there and falling down. It used to be even worse. It used to be very grindy. But it's like actually being able to see what's all in that game. It's like, you know what? These modes are fun. They do feel unique. the video clips they got and the sound package in this and the energy. It's like, this really is fun. I do like the Foundry. The Foundry does. That was something that I realized. Ryan's like, hey, dude, get in there, cash out, buy an extra ball. Do you still have yours, Tom? No, I have the LE, but I think if I could find a pro pretty cheap, I'd probably pick one up. There was, I know, So Flippin' Out had one for sale used. It was a used premium, and I think it was like six grand. Dude, somebody put up an LE. Flippin' Out has been having some killer sales. There was an LE at $7,700 as of two days ago. I don't know if it's still out there, but yeah. The market's been pretty crazy.
    48:18
    That's what I don't understand. It's like Mando is way better than that. I don't know. I encourage you to pull the trigger on it. It's just, and maybe it's because the layout, it is a fan layout and all the shots are so forward that it can feel somewhat brutal. But you can, once you find the shots, like the actual code in that game, I had a lot of fun with it. And so, I don't know. It's just, I am constantly battling in my head what's the next game I want to play or what are the games that when I borrow them from Zach, what are the games that I actually find myself coming back down here and playing frequently. Jaws. And Jaws is a game I miss. Duh, duh. and x-men that was the jaws that was the jaws thing what about elton john you miss i that was i was gonna say that metallica that's a fun game yeah elton john i miss and labyrinth i miss those are all games labyrinth labyrinth labyrinth what i will say is the biggest talk a lot about labyrinth i you know it's i don't have a lot of experience on it but it it's not from what i've played it's it's pretty good game well kind of weird it's been out for over a year now yeah yeah like that's a i i lost i remember because i lost to joel on that somehow that's right i don't know how what happened was i scored i scored i never played it travis that was what you had the actual rules person in your ear saying hit this shot it was it was just natural ability i just got the double barreled middle finger when i came up no barrel do you save that for the transition to I think Bowen actually, yeah, that was pretty sweet, wasn't it? I think Bowen helped me through it a little bit, if I can remember right. He didn't help enough. But what Labyrinth did well, and Carl, our good friend Carl, he loves his Labyrinth. What Labyrinth does really well is the modes that are in that game all feel they story modes their stages or whatever They all feel so very unique They so very different And but yet there's stuff sprinkled throughout the code along the way. You know, a little mode here, a little mode there. There's this whole friend multiball. You can build this like they give you all these other things that you can you can mess with on top of these really fun modes. But I guess good legit question. OK, because you just it just clued up. So I apologize for interrupting here. But Tom could probably answer this since he has an X-Men also. X-Men, if you look at the missions, they are kind of story based. And it is about rescuing the X-Men and, you know, making sure you're changing the future and bringing them out. Like, why is that not appealing to you right now on that level? Because they are kind of like that. Like Juggernaut. Juggernaut's what, like three shots? Like there's no story there. Oh, my God. Tom, have we reached the point where Joel's like, yeah, it's too easy, man. Joel's too good. Man, Joel. He's done it. If you want to tell me a story like that, it's over. Like that story is boom, boom, boom, you're out of the boat. What you're saying is Juggernaut is a big pussy. Jugger bitch.
    51:23
    That's what Tom's trying to say. Maybe that's the fleshing out of, you know, they put the mode in, but maybe they can add that. We had talked about what if they make stages. What about the Tier 2? Yeah, Tier 2 version. What about the Tier 2 challenges? Or what about the challenging ones? You just start all the Tier 2. Yeah, because, I mean, you can raid the Sentinel facility. I mean, they have them on a conveyor belt, so that's kind of thematic, right? But what's changing? While you're playing that mode, what's changing? Nothing is changing. All it's doing is a shot scrolling from back and forth. Because it's a conveyor belt. But the whole time you're playing that mode. Travis killed X-Men for everybody. He did. He ruined it. you're saying, oh, if you start it right, you can just keep hitting the middle and it'll fall on it every time. Those launch parties aren't about following a narrative. They're about winning the damn game, Joel. That's why they're there. Score the points. Let me tell you, everybody, I came in second and third in all my launch parties for X-Men, so it didn't work. Well, I say all this because I like these story-based modes or these stages where it's like you're focused on one shot and then now you have to focus in another area and then you have to do this and you feel like you're actually working your way through something. I really like that. So if I really like that. Do you feel like Jaws is story-based? Why am I playing with my hat like this? I don't know. It's just in my hand. I have a napkin, so you can wipe that brownie goo on something. But is Jaws story-based, though? I mean, they have the encounters, but does it actually feel like you're in that scene?
    52:54
    It scars a little bit. I see. I see. Like, honestly, it doesn't feel like you're actually in the scene, but the shots and the sequences are what's fun about it. You know, so it's kind of like it's kind of. So you're saying it needs some pinball moments. I know it's good enough because you got the whole thing and all that. No, it's fine. I'm just pointing out like a lot of those modes without that, you know, a lot of the Jaws modes you're working. And then all of a sudden, like towards the end, the fin is popping up. So now all of a sudden you're doing something different or unique. And I'm talking about the modes that I really like, but I realize like Godzilla, there's nothing fancy about Gigan. Gigan is literally, it's eight ramps. Like that's not a fancy mode. Are you calling Keith lazy? Is that what you're saying right now? I'm not saying anything, but for some odd reason, I'm okay with that mode because it's totally different than how Ebra feels. It's accessible, yeah. Yeah. And then you get to the tier two battles. You all said you phoned it in. The tier two battles actually have a lot more variety and depth. So there's some balance there. Like that's what with X-Men, I really don't like that they actually unlock the challenging modes right from the get go. I preferred. I could agree to that. I preferred give me the easy four modes, give me to the future, then unlock the challenging modes. I will say the caveat is, though, if those modes were gated or those missions were gated, then everybody would be playing the same exact two or three. I think even though right now kind of everybody still is for the challenging ones, maybe there just has to be some way that they can try to differentiate it. Godzilla, those tier two battles are gated. You're playing the same four battles every time. But you have all the side quests with Godzilla, such as Jet Fighter, such as Saucer, such as Rampage, such as Heat Ray, such as Loops, such as Mecha Godzilla, such as Godzilla Multiball. that's my dead talk I get it another thing I miss is Pulp Fiction I think the modes in that game feel very unique I'm about to put mine up for sale if you want one I only like games that I've been pissed on that's the only games I want to buy I want to spell the musk with somebody else so I can destroy their score I will tell you like the pulse is that what it's called the when you get is it the pulse the it's something with the heart it's um it's when you get through the five uh when you get through the five um main modes in the game it unlocks this it's when you're injecting the you're nearly there the steroids into their heart yep i know i know what you're talking about i can't think of the mode off top of my head but i know what you're talking about that mode's insane that mode's so great. And what a... That's an actual mode? What a great pinball moment. Yes. Yeah, you gotta play through all the scenes. Yeah.
    56:01
    It's great. It's an awesome mode. But each scene is, I mean, it's making you focus on something different. Maybe that's it. I just, I really hate modes where the mode is just all the shots are lit. I don't want to focus on the whole game. I want to focus on kind of I don't know, make me focus on something I don't, don't just tell me I hit everything It's called the shot, that's what it's called The shot, okay, there we go Thank you Tilt Forums, whoever did that Yeah, so to me it's like Once getting back To Metallica, what I love now is The challenge modes, all the crank it up modes You can do as challenge modes And so I played that with my brother and dad and I And so of the four challenge modes in there All four feel very different And that's great that's great. Like I like that make, I don't know. Just, is this how you think about pinball too, Tom? Yes.
    56:57
    There you go, Joel, you're on the right. I'm getting there. I'm growing up. Um, so I just, that to me is what I, the layout has to be good for me to want to buy or own a game, but the code really it's the code is the thing that keeps me coming back. And then that one weird caveat is, but I also need something in the game that Joe Schmo can step up to the game and have fun with. And that's the medieval madness castle. That's the building in Godzilla. That's sparky multiball. Like you got it. I think that's the ultimate goal for any pinball machine. Like you, you have to, it has to, you know, the, the beginner level, everybody from beginner to elite has to enjoy it. and then there's got to be enough juice to squeeze out for the elite players. Oh, yeah. And that's – I will say when Jaws was here, both my wife and my mother-in-law at separate times, they played it by themselves and then came over to me and they're like, what, that fin popping up? Like somehow they had fumbled their way through getting to that point to that first multi ball where the ball was held. The screen screaming at you, shoot it, shoot it. Now they see this thing pop up and they know it's not shoot it. Now it's kill it, kill it now. But that both of them were able to experience that moment. And that was enough of a moment that they wanted to play it again because they didn't hit the fin. and then wanted to immediately come tell me how cool that moment was. Like that, obviously as a designer, that's the goal, right? That is the goal to put in the other quarter or to talk about it. Did you see the fin? Did you get to this? The goal is to keep hitting the start button. Yeah. To get something that resonates with the player. I mean, that's the thing too is it obviously resonated with them emotionally too. Oh, yeah. I mean, because that's really what it is, and it's very hard. Like if you make one shot like that and it was just a white wood, right. There's only a select few people that would get super excited about it. Right. It is, but you have to like truly bring everything together, which goes with the shot, the sound, the light show. Right. And just any assets that you can bring in with it. And that is a unique pinball moment in, in, in the game, obviously. So, you know, I don't know. That's my – this is just me rambling about my thoughts. But we've – I've heard. No. I've heard.
    59:38
    For the record, everybody listening, we get these text messages from Joel all the time, like 10-minute long voice messages, just rambling. Well, he's in his golf cart, no less. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    59:50
    Yes. Well, you actually write it all out. Your rambles are like paragraphs. I just go. And if I realize if I'm going to write more than one sentence, I'm just going to do a voice record. That's true. Record my voice. I need to start doing that. I need to buy myself a golf cart, get in there, get my iPhone to my face and just go. Yeah.
    60:10
    Okay. So I will actually keep this real short. What I want to say about Looney Tunes is it's almost like I feel like I need to apologize. What I mean is, honestly, this is me just being honest and truthful. If I ever looked on Pinside, if I ever saw one of the threads I watch is like, show me your game room. If I ever saw somebody had a Looney Tunes in their game room, I would think less of them. Or I would think like, yes, that's what I mean by that. This is me apologizing. You just pissed off the four listeners that have a Looney Tunes with us. What I mean by that. Do you feel the same about Texas Chainsaw people? No. Which one sold more, Looney Tunes or Texas Chainsaw? I don't know, actually. I don't know if they ship that. I thought when I made that comment, I was just making a joke that I thought it was Texas Chainsaw. Can you make an image of Joel as the Grim Reaper killing Looney Tunes? No. I'm totally going to kick you in the nuts next time he sees you. My God. Let me explain. My experience with Looney Tunes was only at shows, and the game never shot that well.
    61:25
    Almost, I think every time I played it, there was something mechanically wrong with it. I think when we played it initially at TPF, it reset on us. There was like, it just wasn't, you couldn't hear the game. So the game just kind of felt a little lifeless. So to me, it's like, I felt like Looney Tunes was one of those things of, oh, if somebody owns this game is because they pulled the trigger day one before they saw it before they had a chance to buy it and probably just haven't sold it because they they feel like they're just going to lose too much money like in my mind i was thinking like nobody nobody really loves this game right because this is just me being negative but i just i hadn't really heard anybody gush over this game i know my personal experience playing this game wasn't great i know from you you're not necessarily you guys directly but like it's not like tournament players are raving about this game nobody's streaming it like it's just the demand for it isn't huge so i just didn't have positive thoughts about looney tunes so when zach was like hey i'm gonna have you stream looney tunes i was like all right whatever like i'll stream whatever he wants uh whatever he wants to drop off zach yeah all right let me slog through this but in my head i was like i just want i don't want to i don't want a gtf stream i don't want there to be mechanical issues i don't want there to be software issues i don't want to be battling this pin for two hours small side note the game did crash one time but it was luckily it was one time i like that transition besides that one time besides that one time you know we would have won but i fucking defense stopped us i watched the stream it looked like you and jared were having a good time We were having a, like genuinely having a great time. The game shot so much better than it's done. It's shot at a show like the game, the flippers actually felt snappy. The ramps, because of that, didn't feel near, they didn't feel clunky. Like they actually, the game float. There was a few times where, I mean, every ramp feeds a flipper. Like I comboed like three or four ramps in a row. And it's just when you get in that that Zen state where it's just like you're just flying like connecting shots. It's like this is actually this design is actually pretty good. And then you build in the actual like the fact that the modes feel very unique. They're funny because it's freaking Looney Tunes and the sound, even though it's like classical music and whatnot, but they've got good call outs. it's just it it was a it was such a pleasant surprise with genuinely how much fun we had playing that game i was prepared to ask the question to jared if if if the goal was to put a kid-friendly pinball machine at my parents house would would i rather my parents own looney tunes or toy story that was the question that i was going to propose to jared and luckily somebody and chat proposed it like halfway through and jared's like looney tunes by a mile and that really surprised me like toy story's pat lawler right like the game shoots great but i mean travis has sold his toy story i mean his feelings on toy story i'll just be honest i played his daughter's still crying about yeah she's still salty but i put i played both and I had more fun on Looney Tunes. Yeah. Just flat out honest. Yeah. But that's like Toy Story, 27-inch screen, Travis. Hot Rails. It's got all the bells. Like, it's a beautiful, Toy Story is such a beautiful game. They put Forky in the game, Joel.
    65:06
    I had fun. I didn't want Forky. The Duke Kaboom ramp is fantastic. Okay, it is a cool shot. I'll give him that. There are some really good things about Toy Story. But this game just totally surprised me. Where's your Toy Story at? I never bought one. Did you get an Elton John, Tom? I did not.
    65:25
    I did miss Elton John. So let me get this straight. You got a GNR. You got a Godfather. But you did not get an Elton John. Correct.
    65:37
    I got so many questions. But Joel, go ahead. We'll come back to that question. That's a good. This is. If you want. I'm just trying to figure out why Tom didn't get Elton John.
    65:49
    I played the shit out of that game at TTF. Oh, John Spencer. It's a fun game. It's good. I just – It's like Steve Ritchie's greatest hits on all the shots. So, like, the theme didn't grab me.
    66:03
    And then, like, I don't know. I didn't want to lose, like, four grand when I bought it. To use Tom's earlier words, it is a – the layout is not unique. Like, it is a Steve Ritchie's greatest hits. and then the code i feel like the code in elton john is not a one-off experience like the code is good i enjoy the game i enjoy the game but if you want i don't i don't play it and i'm like oh this is amazing it's just like yeah it's fun i mean i i like shooting it but like yeah i just like i'm happy just going over to lumberjack johnny's that's like five minutes down the road and go play it there. That's fair.
    66:49
    That's all I wanted to say about Looney Tunes. If you're a Looney Tunes owner, I apologize to you. I'm sorry for any negative thoughts I've had for you because I actually think it's really fun. I was just being honest. I mean, Tom. If I was a Looney Tunes owner right now, I'd want to kick you all in the balls. Probably just crying somewhere being like, that mother effer. No, I'm telling you, I get it now. I understand. I understand now why. But that's pinball. I mean, everybody has different tastes. You know, nobody has the, well, okay, maybe some people like me and Travis have the same tastes in games, but like there's Joel and he's got a different taste. There's Joel. No, honestly, I've shot Looney Tunes and I think it shoots really good. Yeah. I mean, the code's fine. I have a problem with it. I think the code for a player at both of your caliber, I feel like you could probably blow through the game. I don't know. I don't know from a scoring standpoint. I don't know if what Travis said earlier where he likes to build up things and can I do this and this and this and boom. I don't know if that type of thought or complexity is in the game. We tried to do that. You were there, Joel, for that on Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Yeah. At TPF. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. Yep. but this is the same layout same layout but different totally different uh code and game design but i just it's a fun game i'm having a good time with it um and i'll i was i thought you know once again it was when he dropped it off i was like ah we can probably give it one week but if it's boring or it's just not you know one stream's good but like we finished the stream and jared's like that was awesome he's like i'm looking i would i am looking forward to doing that again and so it's like all right let's let's run it back let's do it again next week um because Because it's just to me, it's one of those. What if Zach takes the game back, though? Maybe he will. Then I'll miss it. But to me, I think it's just it's easy to look at pictures or video and make very strong opinions on whether or not a game is good or not. Or even maybe you can play it once or twice at a show and have a very strong opinion on whether or not a game is good or not. I had that. I had that opinion. And now that it's actually here and I can play it and listen to it and focus on it, I just did a complete 180 on it. And now I need to apologize for my very strong negative opinions on the game. The game is great. So when is that bringing Evil Dead? Great question.
    69:21
    Luckily, last night on stream. And will your wife allow it in the house? I am pretty confident that if Evil Dead. And when are you going to shit on this game? uh i'm pretty sure i don't know i i hope we have a chance to stream evil dead um we normally don't stream spooky games because they're all sold out they're all sold out so obviously um if zach buys one for his own personal collection then that's when i have a chance to stream one early otherwise like the extras that he orders are at the end of the run um so this i streamed looney tunes obviously we're at the end of the run of looney tunes now but this is zach's personal game uh didn't you play a texas chainsaw massacre a few months ago not on stream i played it at expo i could i thought you had that in your house i could have swore you did nope um i'm tripping apologies evil dead i hope i get a chance to stream it i hope i get a chance to play it um and i hope the code i hope they i mean spooky i had a lot of fun with rick and morty so rick and Morty had very similar story-based, stage-based modes. I thought the modes in Rick and Morty felt fun and very unique. Who's on the code for Evil Dead? Isn't it? Who's doing the rules? Rules is Hilton, right?
    70:38
    Hilton Jones. I don't know. That's all I'm asking. From Madison, Wisconsin. Hilton, I think, is on rules, but the actual code, the person doing the code, is I think the same guy that did Luke Peters. Is that right? I think that's the guy who did the – That's right. The code for Looney Tunes. So I think there's a chance that it could be a lot of fun. So you're saying there's a chance. Yes. Well, first and foremost, I think we can all agree. There's a chance Joel won't hate your ass for owning this pen. I feel like you and I, Travis, are shills, and Joel is the real, like.
    71:18
    Joel gets away with it. He's so lovable with that beard. He could shit on any pin. Nobody will even care. Halloween is still not recovered. There is still, okay, every pinball. Halloween is Joel's fault. That is Joel's fault. I think almost every pinball machine is fun, but if I'm struggling to have fun in a game. You haven't played Thunderbirds before, brother. I haven't. I can show you a pin that's objectively not fun. So Evil Dead, I think we can all agree it visually looks incredible. The art package, Chris Franchi crushed it. I think we can all agree on that. That's not a surprise, right?
    71:55
    It's okay. He did okay. No, of course he did good. It's like 11 out of 10. It's gorgeous. Yeah, it's pretty good. Absolutely gorgeous. Of course, it's awesome. I also, you know, a lot of the rumors or a lot of what we heard before the game was revealed was basically what I kept hearing is I have no idea how they packed so much into the game. But what I'm so pleasantly surprised by is it's not packed in the way where it just feels like there's ramp upon ramp and wire form upon – like the game feels cluttered. I don't think that at all. I think this is a very – it's essentially it looks like a big kind of fan layout, but yet they have so many different sculpts and very unique different – you know the shotgun shells loading those the double bear shotgun on the right the lower play field the the heads popping up out of the play field like there's so many cool little yeah there's like literally like three heads isn't there there's like the two on the side and the main one yeah yeah moving hand on the left one of my favorite things about uh monster bash was drac i'm like why don't we have more of this and obviously we have the shark fin and jaws but Like, why do we not have more of this thing coming out that moves? So moving hand, Mac, that's pretty sick. I think the game looks great. I'm surprised they didn't do either any of Army of Darkness or, like, base the game on Army of Darkness.
    73:23
    Because is that – this is a franchise I'm not – I know the names, but I've never seen it. Sure. I'm not familiar with it. Have you watched the first movie before? I have not seen any of them. I will watch them. I'm not going to lie because I've seen it a few times, unfortunately. I'm just not a fan of the first movie at all. But Army of Darkness is pretty sweet. I like the second and the third movie. Yeah. The first movie, I'm just like, eh. But yeah, it gets better, I think. Okay. So in your world, you feel like... is more it's horror but it's like more comedy horror it's more funny there's more like special effects going on the first one's like i need like like who dropped acid and made this film that's the way the first one feels like i don't i don't get it at all like i've tried watching it several times i don't even think i've seen the first one to be honest i think i've gotten through it once and then i've fallen asleep three times in a row trying to like actually watch or just generally losing interest. But Army of Darkness, though, I've seen that a couple times. And that's a cool movie. The third one. Yeah.
    74:31
    Have you seen Fast and Furious like 80 times or something? What's the movie that just keeps you... The movie that I watch?
    74:41
    It's Age of Ultron, isn't it? No, no. That one's alright. I've watched Infinity War. I've seen Christmas Vacation. Okay, there we go. I'm not even lying. I have seen Christmas Vacation. I actually know how many times. Oh, boy. Can you guess how many times I've seen this movie? 30 times. Let's go with 44.
    75:03
    You're super close. 47 times. Why do you know that? It's Christmas Vacation, Joel. Oh so you watch it every year I watch it every year at least like apparently 1 times I don know Margo every year it so cool it's a great movie well I don't know so Evil Dead I just right now I feel like I'm not I don't have a super strong opinion on it because the game I just really haven't seen any real gameplay yet I am very I am cautious about the lower right sling because it isn't a sling it's a flipper Yeah, that's kind of strange too, isn't it? Because it's almost like a dead area, and then the left side is like super active. But there's a flipper there, right? There's a flipper there, but the fact that it's not – you're so used to the slings being slings.
    76:00
    The fact that that's just going to be dead. Like active-passive. Active-passive. Yeah, that's going to be weird. I think that's – but I'm very curious. That's just a thought, but maybe the first time you play it, it's really not a big deal. or it's not, it's actually super fun to use. Dono, I don't know. But I just think visually they crushed it. You know, they got call outs from Bruce Campbell. They've got all the video footage. I mean, it looks like on paper, they got everything in line to knock this game out of the park. But we'll just have to wait and see how fun it is, how fun the code is. And yeah, hopefully I'll get a chance to shoot it. If you're in on one, if you're buying one, I'm excited for you. I think this game could be really, really neat.
    76:45
    He likes you guys already more than if he bought Looney Tunes. I'm not. So that was the other thing is I as much as Bug and Luke made it seem like that Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre were designed in an equal proportion. Right. I didn't ever believe that. Like you're telling like I feel like, you know, the rocket ship on Looney Tunes is the meat grinder on on on Texas. like the worm screw that's used to lock the balls, it's like there is no reason that should be on a rocket ship. Like it's very clearly that mech was designed for Texas, and then they had to retrofit it to get it into Looney Tunes. Yeah, that happens. And I get it. That's fine. But it's like, you know, the door is the crate. I just feel like it really – I feel like they mostly focused on – it seemed like it was more heavier towards Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and then Looney Tunes was kind of, well, we can tweak it enough. You mean seeing the Tasmanian devil move like this? Turn around. It didn't give you an indication? Yeah, he's waking up. But with all that said, though, that was my negative thoughts of just like, meh, meh, meh. But now that I've played it last night, I was like, this game's fun. This game's fun. I'm having a lot of fun with this.
    78:00
    Yeah, it's great. It's a lot of fun. I'm trying to think. There was another game that I remember being surprised by. I got to remember what that was, but I borrowed one preparing to not like, oh, GTF was that. Yeah. GTF showed up in the first. I was like, this game is actually incredible looking like it really stands out. And then I and then I played and then you started playing it. And then I remember that stream. That was epic. It was. It was something. It was a fun one. Yeah.
    78:28
    Those were our two topics. Those were. I want to know. So that that leads me to my next question. of Tom. Like, just going back to the Elton John thing, too.
    78:39
    So, Tom, have you ever gotten a game that you were just like, shit, why did I get this? And you were just like Joel, and you were like, you played it a couple times, and you were like, I can't do it anymore, and you needed a palate cleanser. You don't have the name of the game, but has that happened to you?
    79:00
    He's thinking. I don't think so. I'm trying to think no I don't think I never happened to you before okay I take that back yes it has it been recent no as in like within the past four years how's that sound possibly does the lead designer coder's name or not lead but does the software coder's name rhyme with uh shmayman shmaymanson oh yeah no not rush no well i was gonna my follow-up was no rush was like euphoria for me what is your palate cleanser if you if you have a do you have a go-to game in your collection of like you just got rocked on something you're like i just want to i just want to feel good Probably Iron Maiden. I was literally going to say Iron Maiden. Or Guardians. One of those two. Guardians. Iron Maiden, 100%. That should feel good. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the palate cleanser. Yeah. I don't know if it feels good because I might get my ass kicked on that too, but it's still a palate cleanser.
    80:20
    What's yours, Joel? Is it Cactus Canyon? You're going to say Cactus Canyon, aren't you? I mean, I will be honest. Because of the situation I'm in with borrowing games, I would easily, 90 plus percent of all pinball I play is just whatever game I'm borrowing. Because I just, in my head, it's like I only have it for two weeks. So I would always spend time playing anything else. But I will say yes. It's typically, yeah, I would say a palate cleanser, just step up and have a good time. It's usually I go Cactus Canyon. So then, so here's a good question then. Tom, why is it Guardians? I wasn't expecting that. like guardians is a fun game i've owned it a couple times i i love guardians it's just i don't know it's because it is a metallic next do you have the music on it like the custom code so you have like the stern like the original stern code on it yeah really so it's just a theme and it shoots well anything else breezing through the modes trying to get the cherry bomb and i do like how the modes work on that yeah how you can how you can play through one and then the the tier two or the level two whatever it's called starts automatically yeah and only lasts for that ball i think that's a cool nuance to yeah to build upon and it kind of i think lani did the same thing though with aerosmith also right i'm pretty sure yeah it's similar yeah the upgrades i think it might be better done on Aerosmith, to be honest. Aerosmith's like low-key fun with some of the rules. I think I've played it like one time.
    81:56
    Aerosmith? It's a good game. Yeah. Tell Zach to bring you an Aerosmith. I don't think he has one. Maybe you should get one. Come on, Zach. You should tell him. Just kidding. Tom, you had a... What was it? It was Whopper something you wanted. Whopper Chopper. It was like a Thumper or something. Oh, my God. Thumper. Yeah. What was it? What is this? And what do you need to talk? What do you say about it? Okay. So the Whopper Chopper is a tournament that is going to be held at Lumberjack Johnny's at the end of February. So February 27th to March 2nd. and it is based off of the new hybrid format, which the IFPA is coming out. Now, Joel, I'll explain this to you, okay? Please do. Yes, I'm ready. So in that tournament, we're going to have a main tournament, and there's 12 machines.
    83:00
    And the way the hybrid works is for every machine that's in the tournament, you get four entries total. on each machine but let me explain so you get actually 12 times four is 48 entries a lot of people think that you play you have to play four entries on each machine that's not how it works so you have to play at least one entry on the 12 machines okay and then the rest of them are basically up for grabs. So it's basically a best game format where you have to play all the machines, but you have a limited number of entries set by the number of machines in the tournament. Okay. If that makes sense. So you're saying minimum 12 entries because you have to play one per game. Minimum 48 entries. so a total of 48 entries but you have to play a minimum of of one on each of the games and there's 12 games correct so if elwyn shows up or escher they could they could play 12 games and be like i'm good probably yeah but instead of it being a pump a dump which is unlimited as long as you're paying for it, the max that you're going to be able to play is technically 48. Correct.
    84:35
    But here's the caveat. Here's the caveat. The entry fee is $150. Okay. By playing in the tournament, you have a chance to win a new in-box stern pinball machine. Dang. Okay. Yeah. Who's sponsoring that? It's basically part of the tournament fund. So the tournament's funding it. But we're getting it through the Kingpin Games. How many people are you expecting to be injured? What's the goal? At this point, we're limiting it to 100 players.
    85:16
    Nice. Okay. So the goal is to get 100 players. If we get a total of 60 players, we will definitely have a new in-box pinball machine to be raffled off. But here's the thing. You can also buy entries if you're in the tournament. I think it's $100. I think it's $100 for one entry, and then you get six for $500. So you can actually buy more entries to try to get more chances at the game. And that goes into the prize pool. 100% of that.
    85:55
    And then you can also get entries by getting the high score on one of the games, making playoffs, yada, yada, yada. Oh, cool. So there's a lot of chances to basically try to get a new unboxed pinball machine. um we just decided we didn't want necessarily the winner to get it um but they also have chances of doing that based on you know if they win the tournament they're going to have some more entries yeah you know and vice versa so the winner gets the whoppers but somebody in the tournament is getting a game. Correct. Nice. I like that. And prize money too. So if we have 100 people, the winner's going to get over $2,500.
    87:02
    Okay. I like that payday. Not at all. And you're streaming this, right? I'm streaming it, of course. Sweet. Tom Graf streams. And you're streaming next week, too, as well, right? I never stop streaming. No, just kidding. I haven't streamed in a while. He's got to leave the camera on.
    87:21
    Yes, I'll be at Atomic Pinball for the Winter Bash, which is a Stern Pro Circuit event. There's a lot of big names that are signed up. there's Travis Murie, Tom Graff and Joel Engelbert. No, just kidding. Joel's not coming. I don't think Neal's going to play, is he? What's that? Neal's not playing, is he? No, he has finals. He's too busy watching our past Flippin' Out streams. I know he loves them.
    87:55
    I love that comment. But I think, isn't Keith signed up? Keith Owen? Yeah, as far as I know. Jason Zoller, I thought? Yeah, I think Galler signed up.
    88:07
    Andy Bagwell. Greg Kennedy, Luke Nahorniak. I think Jared August is showing up. So I think you're going to want to watch that, Joel, and learn how to play some pinball.
    88:20
    Yeah, those flipper skills. It's kind of like the old school District 82 tournaments is what it feels like. You know, like there's a lot of solid players showing up for this. So, yeah, that'll be interesting for sure. it was just it was because people heard i was streaming it had nothing to do with anything else yeah thousand percent um it is so we said at the beginning it's december 5th so um we're hoping to record another episode before the end of the year i think we can do it so that we can think we could pull it off we can like do a year-end review yes but obviously we did not do that for Thanksgiving. We hope it can happen. The end of the year episode is always a fun one to do.
    89:08
    Who would you give the turkey leg to, Jill? If you were like John Madden, who would you give the turkey leg to? Monica with those brownies. You know?
    89:19
    But yeah, she keeps it, you know, she sets realistic expectations by not bringing the napkin. You know?
    89:27
    That's like the biggest F you right there. It does feel like a bunch of chocolate. It's all gooey. No napkins. Like, figure it out. You're going to be on camera. Deal with this. Right. I still do not have my brownies.
    89:41
    Did she not hear you? Did she not know? I guarantee you she's been in bed for the last, since probably before we started recording. Yeah, mine's either asleep or charting. So she's not making brownies right now.
    89:54
    No, hopefully we can do a year in review. But if we don't, this has been another fun year. Obviously, thank you so much for the people that listen or click on the YouTube video.
    90:05
    Thank you for all of our Patreon supporters. We've been to a lot of shows and people that have come up to us saying they love the podcast. It's surprising every single time. People that have bought merch. You actually listen to those things. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, there are people around the world that have bought merch for this, and it's crazy. A lot of people when I was at the UK Open came up to me and like, I love your podcast. It's awesome. Yeah, it's. And I'm like, what about my stream? Oh, no.
    90:35
    Oh, OK. Yeah. Well, it's yeah, it's it's humbling because we're we talk about this all the time. And legitimately, it's like we we screw around a lot on this podcast. But we also realize we're three idiots with a microphone that just like hanging out and having fun. And it's yeah, it's definitely it's humbling to hurt anybody's feelings like Joel. yeah exactly we all have our own goals okay for this so oh yeah I remember I was told that I'm only trying to shill Stern because I asked you too many questions about Avatar and then Stern people it was in our notes you don't remember we will shill anybody but Jersey Jack Pinball because we do not invite Travis and I Oh, that was a little weird. When I say Stern people, I mean like Stern fans. I heard from them that I talked about Avatar too much. And I'm like, everybody pick a lane. Pick a lane. We are all going to start talking about Haggis or Home Pin or something. I know. Everybody's mad I asked Joel questions. Today it'll be spooky. You talked about spooky too much. I know. Everybody will be like, Travis, why did he just shit on Looney Tunes? I'll be like, what did I do? What did I do now? When in doubt. The email is tripledrain.gmail.com. What I will guarantee you is Travis will not read your email. He has access. He doesn't know how to do it. Tom and I read all the emails. We try to respond to all the emails. That's true.
    92:11
    I appreciate it. It goes through a filter. Joel reads it and Tom reads it and then they save my feelings for myself. They're like, oh yeah, everything was great. Nobody's shitting on you at all we should probably tell them what our email address is triple drain at gmail.com the problem is once i realize some of the words are longer than about five or six letters i realize you're not you're gonna struggle travis so i guess that is true yeah that is very fair yeah that's not even a low blow that's like fact so yeah i agree oh man i'll just read them out loud to you that's what i'll start sending you voice memos of travis's the email let me read it to you dear travis i'll be able to listen to yeah why do you hate no we appreciate everybody even the people that that take the time to listen we appreciate it and the people that end up sending us messages even if it's like critical even if it's disagreeing with us like that's totally cool yeah you know i'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with us because i mean hell i live with it like monica disagrees with everything i do and it's perfectly fine but i love it yeah oh Oh, yeah. Phil, you should see it. I'm treated so bad, Joel. So bad. Yeah, so bad. I don't know how anybody could do this, but I survived. Glooms behind the curtain. Travis sent us a picture over the weekend of him hanging three TVs. He goes, this is what I'm doing today. And what's funny is everybody in that text thread realizes there is zero chance Travis is hanging these TVs. That was his job. That was his task. But it was like two, three hours later. What did we get? We got a picture of Monica hanging the TVs. He gave up. He realized, nope. Dude, bro, I didn't even start. I just sat there with a beer on the couch. Monica knows by now. We've been married for nearly 20 years. We all know, Travis. It's not a secret. She has seen me frick up enough stuff. She's like, it's fine. I got it. It's not a secret. It's not even strategic incompetence. I just simply can't do it. And it's fine. I know my lane. I can just see the conversation. Travis on the couch with a beer. So Monica, the power tools are over there. If you could just hang that TV a little bit to the right. You know, it's more like she's like a Saturday. Tom, what are she's like? Travis, what are your plans today? Because she's probably because I got to do this and this and this. And he's like, I'm going to hang those TVs. And she hears that going. Well, it looks like I'm hanging TVs. I will tell you a story, Tom, real quick. I've never told anybody this. So hopefully nobody else is listening to this. But let me shut it off. So this this happened a few years ago. And I say a few is like 15 years ago. Right. And at this point, like I was still trying to I was still trying to like do, you know, like do the maintenance stuff and all that. And it wasn't even like I would always F it up, but I would try. Yeah. Right. I would give it an effort. And so I was just chilling out and Monica started working on something. And so I started being like, are you sure it's not like this? And she literally I kid you not, just stops what she's doing. I'm behind her. She stops what she's doing. She turns around and she just looks at me. She's, she's like, I love you to death. I need you just to shut the fuck up right now and get a beer and just watch me do this. And I said, okay, can I get that in writing? Can I get that in writing so I could laminate it and keep it in my wallet? I'm doing my job. I was married to the right woman. I'm over here. I've got my beer. I'm letting you do you. She knew it. She was like, go get you a beer she talked my love language immediately so i knew it was fine what's the opposite so one of the love languages is acts of service so what's the opposite like you're you're giving the love language of no acts of service like i'm showing you my love by by not interrupting your acts of service yeah it's support support i don't think that's one of the love languages i I forget what it was. I think it's just called participation. Yeah. It's your present. Yeah, just being there. Yes, right? Because I could be drinking a beer somewhere else. Now, the real question is if somebody walks into your house and sees those TVs, does she say, and they're like, oh, those look great. Does Monica then say, I hung those up? Or she goes, yeah, Travis did that. Or does she say, we did that? No, there's no we. No. Anybody that's in my personal circle, they know immediately. I'm just incompetent. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, I'm not even going to front. That's the way it is. I mean, it's not even like, who do you think levels these pens behind me, Joel? You think it's me? It's not me. I'll tell you that right now. It's not me.
    96:50
    It's like the same way. Everybody thinks for the pinball company, I do the tech work. It's not me. It's Carrie Wing. She does what she's doing. They made a good hire. 2024, hire of the year right there. I know, right there. Hopefully she gets a twippy for rookie of the year next year or something. Well, did you pick out that hat, Travis? I mean, did you pick out the one you're wearing? This? Yeah. Yes. Okay, good. I did. Good. Did I buy it? No, but I did pick it out to wear tonight. Yes. That looks great. Thank you. All right. It's a Christmas episode. Very sexy. Thank you. Let's plug it up. Tom, you go first.
    97:29
    I forgot what I knew. Fox City Spinball. I'm on Twitch, YouTube. Only fans. Whopper Chopper. Sign up now before they're all gone. Win a new in-box pinball machine. Play pinball. Have fun.
    97:49
    Nailed it. Plugged it well. I thought it. What do you got, Travis? I got nothing. That's typical. Pinball company. Yeah, I'm on triple drain and all that. But yeah, it's whatever. Yeah. I'm having fun. I appreciate you too. Even Joel. even Joel and all the listeners out there even when he crafts on Looney Tunes I started it I'm talking about how I changed I'm a changed man I want to see how this goes it was a train wreck I can't wait for the pin side threads just like absolutely shit on you Joel I cannot wait it's so exciting it's coming and I'm Joel I'm the guy to shit on and And I do the flip it out pinball stream. So check us out on YouTube. We just passed 5,000 subscribers. I was really proud of that. That was a goal of mine to see if we could get there. And we did. So I was really happy with that. And yeah, really appreciate all the support there. Obviously enjoyed doing that stream with my brother.
    98:53
    And super appreciative. You guys do a fine job. Even if Neil Graff doesn't think so, I think you do an excellent job. It's fine. I mean, only his opinion matters to me, but that's fine. That's fine. No, we will never. We will never reveal this. Wasn't that his words? Who watches this? I was supposed to say we'll never reveal what he said, but now we have to. Who watches this? Yeah.
    99:18
    That's valid. He's not the first. He won't be the last person. That's a sub-20 elite player saying that. So, yeah.
    99:25
    They're in another world. Yeah. So far, the sub 20 comments I've heard is who's watching this and Escher saying, if you're looking to Joel for rules, then you're hosed.
    99:36
    That's the current feedback I've gotten from those sub 20 players. So, so far, I'm doing real good. The kids are all right. I know my audience. The kids are all right. Yeah, they're just like my actual kids. They have no filter. They're just freaking brutal. If you're not ready for it, they'll just make you fucking cry. but yeah they're like dad why'd you sell toy story dad why don't you do something is that is that no it's like they just like the young 20 somethings just look at me like why are you so old oh yeah yeah what happens man yeah part of it all right i think we're good uh tom like always you get the last words shit i wasn't ready