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Episode 8: JJP and Family with Eric Meunier

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 21m·held·Apr 26, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

JJP designer Eric Meunier discusses Pirates, Wonka design philosophy, and future projects.

Summary

Eric Meunier, game designer and project manager at Jersey Jack Pinball for six years, discusses his role designing Pirates of the Caribbean and contributions to Wonka. He explains JJP's shift toward location-friendly games with shorter play times, his collaborative design philosophy, the importance of manufacturability and serviceability, and his experience directing Hollywood actor Jason McNally for Pirates voice work. Meunier emphasizes JJP's commitment to family-friendly themes and reveals he has a whitewood prototype in development for his next game.

Key Claims

  • Wonka is designed as a location pinball game with 3-minute game time and simplified rules to appeal to broader audiences

    high confidence · Eric Meunier directly stating JJP's design intent for Wonka

  • Eric Meunier wrote the script for Pirates of the Caribbean and directed actor Jason McNally in the recording studio

    high confidence · Eric Meunier direct account of working with McNally on ~25-30 recordings of Jackpot callouts

  • The Wonka Vador is a carryover ball lock that hasn't been prominently featured in recent games, designed to create visible tension on location

    high confidence · Eric Meunier explaining the Wonka Vador as a concept revival for location appeal

  • Eric Meunier has been an operator with hands-on experience repairing and maintaining pinball machines

    high confidence · Eric Meunier stating 'my experience being an operator' and direct discussion of repair challenges

  • Pirates of the Caribbean's complex mechanisms (three disc, opening/closing trunk) required significant tweaking to become production-ready and reliable

    high confidence · Eric Meunier discussing lessons learned from Pirates production challenges

  • Eric Meunier has a whitewood prototype in development for his next game, which feels different from Pirates

    high confidence · Eric Meunier stating he has 'been playing it for a couple months now and working on refining it'

  • Disney licensing for Pirates required coordination with 14 different Disney contacts on a weekly basis

    high confidence · Eric Meunier firsthand account of Pirates licensing process

  • JJP has rejected game themes in early discussion phases when team members lacked passion for them

    high confidence · Eric Meunier confirming theme rejection process occurs at conference table stage

Notable Quotes

  • “All pinball is good pinball, guys.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:01:30 — Establishes Eric's inclusive philosophy toward the pinball community

  • “This game is definitely a concept from Pat to bring location pinball, to get JJP games more in location pinball. Focusing on like a three minute game time and focusing on rules that are easy to approach.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:02:45 — Direct explanation of Wonka's strategic design purpose under Pat Lawlor's direction

  • “The entertainment factor that people are trading in their quarters or when they're having a game at home, trading in thousands of dollars for fun and for entertainment. So it's a facet of the industry that goes a little deeper than I anticipated.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:08:00 — Reflects on the unexpected emotional investment and entertainment value of pinball as industry

  • “I want every customer to be happy regardless of the game... all pinball is good pinball, and I want people to have fun playing their games.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:22:30 — Demonstrates customer service commitment and industry passion beyond job requirements

  • “The coolest mechanism in the world is cool on a prototype game, but might not work in production.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:35:15 — Key design lesson about constraints between whitewood innovation and manufacturing reality

  • “As a double degree holding engineer, something I never thought I would do in my life was direct a Hollywood actor.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:38:00 — Highlights unexpected creative challenges and opportunities in pinball game design

  • “I had 14 different people's contact info at Disney that I was working with on a weekly basis. I was doing all of the day-to-day work in the licensing with them.”

    Eric Meunier @ ~0:45:30 — Demonstrates the extensive licensing coordination required for major IP games

  • “Once they actually got a game in their hands and were able to see it and flip it, I got so many emails from people just say, I get it. I understand what you're doing.”

Entities

Eric MeunierpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyPirates of the CaribbeangameWonkagamePat LawlorpersonKeith Johnsonperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Eric Meunier and JJP deliberately designing Wonka for location venues with 3-minute games and accessible rules, contrasting with previous longer-form games like Pirates, Hobbit, Dialed In

    high · Direct statement: 'This game is definitely a concept from Pat to bring location pinball, to get JJP games more in location pinball. Focusing on like a three minute game time'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Carryover ball locks (Wonka Vador) being revived as a novel location mechanic after absence from recent games; designed to create visible tension and player motivation

    high · Eric explaining Wonka Vador as bringing back mechanism 'that hasn't been used in a while' with intentional FOMO design for location players

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Eric Meunier brings rare operator/maintenance background to designer role; explicitly considers serviceability and manufacturability constraints absent in some legacy designs

    high · Multiple statements: 'my experience being an operator has shown how difficult it can be to work on games' and emphasis on not using specialized tools/components

  • ?

    product_concern: Pirates of the Caribbean's innovative mechanisms (discs, trunk) required extensive tweaking between prototype and production; complex mechanisms slow factory output and hurt field reliability

    high · Eric: 'Those mechanisms functioned in a whitewood and they functioned in prototypes, but there was a lot of tweaking that had to happen... when you have a factory trying to screw together 20 games a day, those tweaks slow them down'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Disney licensing for Pirates required extensive coordination (14 contacts, weekly meetings, full-time licensing work by designer); Disney initially resistant to pinball scope but gained appreciation after hands-on experience

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.245

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loserkid Pinball Podcast. We are currently on episode number 8 and with me my co-captain as always. I'm Scott Larson. And Scott, we have someone special with us today. I want you to introduce him since you guys connect on a better level than I do. Well, we are blessed with having Eric Minear here, who has been the game designer and project manager at Jersey Jack Pinball, and he's been going on six years. You will know him from his latest release, which was Pirates of the Caribbean, and we'd like to welcome Eric. Eric, how are you doing? Doing great. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on the show.
0:45
For sure. Thanks for saying yes. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for slumming it with the low pinball fruit, not the highbrow crowd. All pinball is good pinball, guys. Yes. We just wanted to get y'all and ask you some questions. We know that you didn't necessarily do anything with Wonka, but whenever we see, at least when I see you, Eric, I see you kind of as the face of JJP.
1:08
Even at the stream with Buffalo, you were kind of there in your blazer and answering questions as they came on. So we figured you'd be one of the best men to sit down and talk with since everyone else got the spotlight, right? Pat Lawler's already had it and so did Keith or Joe Katz. So, so far, is there anything that you feel like hasn't been covered with Wonka that you'd like to bring to light? Um, this game is definitely a concept from Pat to bring location pinball, to get JJP games more in location pinball. Focusing on like a three minute game time and focusing on rules that are easy to approach, things that carry over from game to game like the Wonka Vader lock. It really has the appeal of faster games, harder games, whereas some of our older games like Waz and Hobbit and Dialed In and even Pirates had longer ball times. So it's one of the things that we've been fine-tuning here in the office, tweaking posts and moving things around on the outlines and at the bottom of the game to make it a harder-playing game. So Eric, when you're actually approaching a game, there are certainly ways of drawing from the past and implementing things in the future. You're walking that fine line of finding something that's innovative but familiar at the same time.

Eric Meunier @ ~0:46:30 — Shows how Disney's understanding of pinball evolved after hands-on experience with Pirates

Joe Katz
person
Jason McNallyperson
Disneycompany
Scott Larsonperson
Christopher Meunierperson
Simpsons Pinball Partygame
Lord of the Ringsgame
Harlem Globetrottersgame
Trongame
Dialed In!game
Lloyd (JJP staff)person
Butch (JJP staff)person
The Hobbitgame
Banzai Rungame

high · Eric describing 14 Disney contacts, weekly coordination, and follow-up emails from Disney staff saying 'I get it' after playing the game

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Eric Meunier uses collaborative design process, presenting whitewood concepts to Keith Johnson and Joe Katz for feedback before proceeding; contrasts with some solo-designer approaches

    high · Eric: 'I will come up with concepts in a whitewood and I will bring in my teammates, Keith and Joe Katz, specifically and talk to them about the concepts'

  • ?

    community_signal: JJP intentionally avoiding objectifying female imagery and mature themes; all JJP games described as family-friendly and approachable across demographics

    high · Eric discussing Betty character in Dialed In as intentional design choice to show 'strong woman who can fix things' versus typical objectified imagery; noting all JJP themes are classy and family-appropriate

  • ?

    machine_intel: Eric Meunier has active whitewood prototype in development for next game; reportedly different feel from Pirates; been playtesting for couple months

    high · Eric: 'I do have a Whitewood. I've been playing it for a couple months now and working on refining it... it's definitely a different feel in the game than Pirates is'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Eric Meunier's design signature emphasizes deep rule complexity, technical skill expression, and ball control (e.g., Pirates' upper playfield with dual flippers enabling advanced trap techniques)

    high · Eric: 'I'm definitely a more advanced player. I prefer deep rule sets. I prefer complexity and strategy... two flippers up on upper playfield, three on main playfield' enabling advanced multiball techniques

  • ?

    business_signal: JJP evaluates potential game themes collaboratively at conference table stage; rejected themes occur early before significant development investment when team lacks passion

    medium · Eric: 'We haven't been far down the road on the theme and then rejected it. It's been more sitting around the conference table and say, all right, theme X is here... we all generally agree on what themes we think will make a good game'

  • ?

    content_signal: Kevin Jason McNally (Shakespeare's Globe actor) showed genuine enthusiasm for Pirates pinball project despite no prior pinball knowledge; requested updates and photos; completed 25-30+ takes of voice work with varied emphasis

    high · Eric: 'He was super into it' and 'asked me to email him pictures of the game and how this is going to be used and video clips and stuff like that' despite being on break from performing Macbeth

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Eric Meunier prioritizes operator/technician accessibility in design decisions; avoids specialized tools, layered systems, and proprietary components; learned from experience servicing Gottlieb/Williams machines

    high · Eric: 'trying not to use specialized components or things where you need a 90 degree drill bit... being able to get parts off without taking the entire game apart... most designers look at this after the fact. But not many have been operators'

    • 2:36
    And so what are the things that you saw about Wonka that you thought, this is a great concept that we want to implement it, and this is the new twist that we're bringing to it? The Wonka Vator was a cool thing that made a comeback, right? A carryover ball lock hasn't been used in a while. I'm trying to think of the last game that had a carryover ball lock from player to player that wasn't rapid stealing like TNA, where that could happen from ball to ball. But this one is more of a further out goal where you have to qualify the Wonka Vader and then lock it in there. And there's just this concept of I see two balls in the Wonka Vader. I got to put in my money so that I can play the Wonka Vader multiball. I really think that was a fun concept to bring back, especially for location pinball, getting people to get anxious about having two balls in there and being able to cash it in and have a monster game. Totally. I think there is something to be said about seeing that physical ball lock that makes it so much more attractive than just having one or two balls locked. My first game that I ever bought was Simpsons Pinball Party, and so when I saw the Wonka Vader, I thought that reminds me a lot of the couch, and there is something about seeing the balls just waiting there on the couch that you just want to get up there and lock that in. And I can see that being certainly kind of an advertising things like, hey, the ball's right here, come get it. Yep, absolutely.
    4:19
    So going on with the Wonk Evader, the second question we have then is with the standard, it's a virtual lock. Does that still carry over from player to player as well or is that something different?
    4:31
    Right now I believe it's individual per game. I think it might carry from player to player, but don't hold me to that. That's something that's in software and I haven't dug around on the standard edition enough to give you a solid answer on that. But with that being the game that's going out on locations more often, I believe that's a feature we'll definitely want to make sure we have right. People want to know that that's going to happen there. Well, if I have a follow-up question under that is, if it's not going to be a physical lock, how are you going to, on location, show, and you might not know the answer to this, but how are you going to show that there is the two balls locked and Wanker Viggo is almost ready? Yeah, I'm not sure how that will be implemented. That'll be a question that we'll have to get Katz to answer in one of his sessions. All right, no worries. So my question about joining an industry where you have a history of it and you grew up, your family's been interrouting, and so you have that background into pinball. Then going away and kind of moving away, but after you're finishing your degree, you decide to jump back into the pinball world. How is it different working in the industry versus being a fan from the outside?
    6:06
    It's definitely different than I expected. One of the big things that didn't really come into my mind when I started working was how interested the fan base would be in what I do day to day. So having people, you know, when I go to a pinball league, everyone's able to talk about what they work on and what they do on their day jobs. And then the conversation comes to me and I just have to close my mouth and be like, yep, working on a game. That's all I can say. But the people are very interested.
    6:43
    Pinball being in the entertainment industry is kind of a concept that never really crossed my mind because I view it from an engineer's point of view, Where it's a craft that we make, that we design, do the math to make sure things work out. But there's this unmeasurable fun factor, this entertainment factor that people are trading in their quarters or when they're having a game at home, trading in thousands of dollars for fun and for entertainment. So it's a facet of the industry that goes a little deeper than I anticipated. So is pinball still fun for you when you're still working anywhere from 40 hours to 100 hours a week doing this day in and day out? When you leave, do you still want to go and play pinball at home or in league or on location? Because for me, I would think, man, that would be really difficult to still capture the fun and entertainment value for myself when I'm already doing it for my day job.
    7:48
    It is still fun for me. When I see games on location, I will still play them because I'm trying to do my small part to keep pinball alive on location. Supporting our local operators, supporting our local tournament directors, people who have these games out on route is what brings in non-pinball people. You know, you're not getting more players and more buyers of games by just having games in people's basements. I find myself not playing by myself all too often in my basement because I have two small kids. But when my 18-month-old says pinball, pinball and hits the basement door, you're damn right. I'm picking him up and we're going downstairs and he's standing on the chair in front of the game and I'm playing standing behind him and he's looking at the lights and trying to grab the ball through the glass and things like that. So it's definitely still entertaining for me. I had my pinball league last weekend and I love hanging out with those guys and girls and playing all the different games that people have in their collections. So, yeah, definitely still something I find fun and entertaining. That's awesome. That would be just a tragedy, in my opinion, if you were to grow up with it and then have it tarnished for working in the industry. No, I am completely opposite. Awesome. Cool. Well, the other question is, too, since you grew up in the industry and everything with that, how is it, because I assume that you play a lot of like Pat Lawler games and Keith Johnson games and stuff like that with Lord of the Rings, like you said, in one of your other interviews. How is it working with those industry professionals now?
    9:31
    It's great. Pat and Keith are very experienced in the industry. Pat has a lot of knowledge to share with what he did with games back in the 90s and early 2000s, getting games on location and making games fun to play. Pat has some of the most creative games ever made and having him here to bounce ideas off of and talk to is a very good resource.
    10:00
    Keith is an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to pinball. When I come up with a concept, I'm like, I really like to do X, Y, Z. And he says, oh yeah, just like on Harlem Globetrotters. I'm like, what do you mean? And I go look up Harlem Globetrotters on IPDB and like, ah, yes, exactly like on that game. Or some other abstract rule where I'm like, this would be really fun if we did this. Oh yeah, you know, just like on Embryon. No. Yes, exactly. Just like on Embryon. Damn it, Keith. So he has this encyclopedia of rules knowledge, more so than anyone I've ever met.
    10:35
    And just like knows every game out there. And I mean, that's probably why he was, he's a very skilled player. But that's probably what pushed him over the top as far as a great tournament player because he knows rules on every game. And probably what makes him a wonderful programmer and a huge asset to this company. He can come up with these rules and take a little bit from different games and modify them and come up with his own new unique fun things to do in a pinball machine. I will admit that I nerded out when I first started working here and I brought in my Lord of the Rings back glass and had my co-worker sign it.
    11:18
    So that absolutely happened. That is totally cool. Okay, now I know that you said one time that you made it to Valinor. Have you made it again?
    11:31
    I have only made it once and it wasn't even on my game, as sad as that is. I made it on my brother's game Christmas Eve one year when I was staying at his house and I started screaming. It was like midnight. I started the game at like 1045 and it was midnight when I got to Valinor.
    11:50
    He came out like wearing a bathrobe. He's like, what's on fire? What's happening? I'm like, I made Valinor. He's like, oh, cool. Watched it for a little bit. Like, all right, go to bed.
    12:00
    So in addition to Lord of the Rings, what else is in your home collection? Let's see here. I just took a picture of it so that I would have these to make sure I got them all right. I have Lord of the Rings. I have Bonsai Run prototype number seven with a diamond coat playfield, which is amazing. I have Stern Star Trek, I have Tron, Simpsons Pinball Party, and then a Wizard of Oz Yellow Brick Road, a Hobbit, a Dialed In, and Collector Edition number 001 of Pirates of the Caribbean. Of course.
    12:45
    And I just bought a Harlem Globetrotters actually and it's sitting in the office. It's got it today. Oh, nice. And set up here so that we can, you know, play dollar games.
    12:56
    How often do you turn over games? I actually don't get rid of games all that often. I've, I don't know, I've had probably 10 different games than the ones I've listed. But for the most part, my brother Christopher and I share a collection. So when a game starts to get stale for me, I'll say like, okay, you can have Black Knight 2000 for six months and I'll take Scared Stiff. And we'll just swap games like that. And that way we don't have to go through as many games like buying and selling out of our collections. We'll just switch with each other. That brings me to another question because you were talking about family earlier. Is there any pinball machines that aren't allowed in the house? My wife doesn't even know about most of the pinball games. There's games that I personally wouldn't bring into my house with my kids being so young. I have a four-year-old and an 18-month-old, and I just think something like Walking Dead would give them nightmares, so I wouldn't bring that in my house. It's a fun game. I like playing it, don't get me wrong. But it's not something that I would bring in or like a Playboy or, you know, games that are not necessarily family friendly.
    14:17
    I gotcha. Oh, come on. You're not saying that Playboy would be fun trying to show your four year old.
    14:23
    Maybe when he's like 10. Well, I can attest to, I took my son to the last tournament, the last group meetup we had, and they had a Walking Dead there. And he's eight, and he's like, Dad, I think I'm going to have nightmares tonight from this game. I'm like, okay, it's not coming into the collection then. Yeah, no, I certainly think that there's the one thing that I've really liked about the games that JJP has put out is I think every single one of them could be adapted to all locations. There's nothing that is taboo about any of them. And I've appreciated as a young father that I don't have any issues about selecting any of them to go into my collection. Has that been intentional by Jersi Jack or has that just been a byproduct of which games you've been working on?
    15:20
    It's definitely been a combination of both. I remember when I was talking to some of the women in Bells and Chimes here in Chicago and how they personally thanked me, which I didn't have anything to do with it, but for Betty, the robot in Dialed In. Thank you for showing a woman with a wrench in her hand wearing overalls instead of like standing there with her with her like a large chested woman with her chest hanging out like hanging on stuff. Like that shows a strong woman who can fix things, who's a mechanic, which is so much better than what most pinball machines. You know, I think this was they were looking at a big juicy melons game, for example. Well, that was that was there in the tournament, you know, and how like it's just not the type of game that I would want to put my name on that I would want to put out there just because of how it demeans women. So the other games that we have all have art that is classy and keeps things pretty well in the scope of where it's approachable by everyone. Families, friends that aren't into pinball, and men and women try to make it so that it works for everyone. I guess I've never noticed that, but now that Scott and you have brought it up, I can definitely see that. It's pretty cool.
    16:50
    So when you're designing a pinball machine, is there a certain way that you design or is it kind of just free flow? What do you do when you come to that step? Um, generally for me, I try to design the major mechanisms and toys in a game before, like, those take priority to me, and then the shots go in around them. And then obviously there's a give and take back and forth, but to me the mechanisms that interact with the ball that make a game new and unique take priority, and then you make the shots work, I make the shots work around those. Do you have a preference for a two-flipper game or a three-flipper or four-flipper or even a five-flipper? What are some things that you think, you know what, this is in my wheelhouse? Because I think that every game tends to have a feel for a designer. A Loller game feels different than a Ritchie game, feels different than a Borg game. And they all kind of have a signature style. What is your signature style?
    18:00
    That's really hard to look at. I mean, I only have one game made out in production that people have played. From a technical point of view, I'm definitely a, personally, I'm a more advanced player. I prefer deep rule sets. I prefer complexity and strategy. I think that definitely shows in Pirates. As well as having good ball control and technical skills, being able to trap up balls in the lower playfield and then make a cannon shot with a ball in the upper playfield by only half pressing the flipper buttons in is something that I purposefully wanted to do. And that's why that game has two flippers up on the upper playfield, three on the main playfield. Being able to trap up in a multiball and still make shots with other flippers is something that can really show an advanced player and a skilled player what is possible in a multiball situation. You know, and honestly, that upper rocking play field blew me away when I first saw it. It's crazy to see. I know everyone was complaining about the discs and whatnot. I was like, that upper play field is very innovative. I don't think I've seen anything. Maybe Keith has. But that is just an awesome little mech. And it fits the theme perfectly. And it adds to an element that I don't think has ever been added to pinball in complexity as well. Right. Thank you.
    19:25
    So kind of talking about designing as well, are there any kind of constraints that you have to consider when you're designing pinball? Absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, Jersey Jack pinball is still a business. You know, games need to be made in a timely fashion and need to be assemblable by a factory worker, a line worker, who's not trained in mechanical engineering and not trained in electrical engineering. Someone who comes and is able to put screws together, screw down parts onto a playfield and not have to fine tune and adjust every single piece that goes into it. So the game has to be reliable and manufacturable.
    20:11
    And those are two extremely important constraints that I use. And also be serviceable That another big constraint that I want to work with and try to put into all of my games Just my experience being an operator has shown how difficult it can be to work on games You know, not everyone has all the tools that I have in my workshop in their repair bag. So, you know, trying not to use specialized components or things where you need a 90 degree drill bit or weird things like that. You know, being able to try to get parts off of a game without having to take the entire game apart, for example, is another thing that I think most designers look at and comprehend after the fact. But I don't know if there have been a lot of other designers who have been operators and have worked on that side of the business. So it feels like it's something that's really in the forefront of my head when I'm designing a game. Well, and I really appreciate that as a homeowner too because I own a World Cup Soccer 94 and I hate working on that game because it's ramps layered on top of ramps. And it's just hours of working on it when something should be as simple as replacing a lightbulb in a pop bumper. If that pop bumper is in the back under that ramp, all of a sudden you're tearing off two sets of ramps or trying to figure out how to get some specialized thing in there. And so I think that's one of the other things I really do appreciate about the direction that JJP is going because I don't want to spend – I want to play my game. I don't want to spend hours working on it. Yeah. Well, and I mentioned this on the past podcast, too, that the one thing I've been really impressed with is, at least the major companies, how involved they are in the maintenance and troubleshooting for the layperson. I would say that I've been under a playfield and I can find basic stuff wrong with it, but I'm not your typical hobbyist who knows how to get in and out of everything. And when I sent in a question about my upper playfield doors going into the castle, one of them is not opening.
    22:33
    And Lloyd sent back quickly, he said, well, these are the things you need to check for, boom, boom, boom. And I asked back, and even then Butch chimed in and said, well, check out, it's on this page in the manual, and this is how you take it apart. And I was really impressed that someone high up in the company would actually care about, you know, someone like me. I'm just I am one guy who has one game but was interested enough to say, yeah, we want to make sure that's working. Yeah, it's something that I have to limit myself from doing because I will, you know, I want every customer to be happy regardless of the game. I mean, I've gotten to know friends through pinball where they're like, hey, man, I'm having a problem with my Tron. They're like, all right, I have a Tron. Here's how to fix it. Let's make it work. Like I said, all pinball is good pinball, and I want people to have fun playing their games.
    23:31
    Yeah, well, I think that's a credit to the company. I had a question about designing. So when you're designing, there are different approaches that people can take. They can be the, hey, you're going into the room, you're the designer, you do your thing, and then come out and show us what you're doing with your whitewood. There are other things that are more of a collaborative process of a couple people working on it with one person as the lead.
    23:58
    What do you prefer and what do you foresee as advantages or disadvantages to different approaches? Um, I see the way I design is I will come up with concepts in a whitewood and I will bring in my teammates, um, Keith and Joe Katz, um, specifically and talk to them about the concepts that are in my head, um, after I've like drawn them out and make sure like those guys will think it's going to be fun. And make sure they think they're, you know, see what sort of sparks go off in their brain when they look at that concept when it comes to rules and programming and what would make a fun strategy. So I'm more collaborative in my design process as far as bringing other guys and talking to them about the ideas than other designers that I've worked with.
    24:56
    And I think there are great advantages of it. You know, it's these guys are all very passionate about pinball and they all want to make the best product. So I there I want them on my team and I want them their voices to be heard. And yes, I'm the one designing it and I'm the one who's drawing it and putting it together. But I absolutely want to hear their input every step of the way. So when it does come to designing some themes and whatnot, too, do you guys kind of get a say in what you design theme wise? Because I know that there has been talks recently of pinball machines have been scrapped because no one in the company really had a passion for it. And when you guys all seem very passionate about what you do, is there a theme where you can kind of reject and you're just like, it's just not for us kind of thing?
    25:43
    Absolutely. That's happened with different themes that have come along. You know, we haven't been far down the road on the theme and then rejected it. It's been more sitting around the conference table and say, all right, theme X is here. What do people think about it? Theme Y is over here. What do people think about it?
    26:04
    And we all generally agree on what themes we think will make a good game. So it's just it's something that having passion for the project definitely helps. And having interest in the project can really inspire a game designer and programmers to do some neat new stuff that's never been done before or apply their love of that license in a way that probably wouldn't be done in the same way from someone who doesn't care about the license or the product. So what are some of the lessons you learned from your first machine, which by all accounts, Pirates was shooting for the fences. You're going for a grand slam. There wasn't one gimmick in there. There were about five different things that people said, hey, that's never been in a machine. What are the things that you learned from that experience into integrating for your next Whitewood, your next game? Um, well, getting a game, getting a whitewood shooting and flipping and that sort of thing is relatively easy. Taking a whitewood to production is extremely difficult. It takes a mountain of people to make that happen. And so designing mechanisms that, I mean obviously people know about the three disc and the opening and closing trunk, like those mechanisms functioned in a whitewood and they functioned in prototypes, but there was a lot of tweaking that had to happen to make those happen. And when you have a factory that's trying to screw together 20 games a day, those sort of tweaks on overly complex mechanisms will slow them down and will make games not reliable in the field. So that's something that, you know, going to take with a grain of salt. The coolest mechanism in the world is cool on a prototype game, but might not work in production. Okay, I definitely see how that would work.
    28:22
    It seems like a lot of the, at least with Wonka anyway, it seems a little more streamlined. Like you said, it seems to be, hey, we're trying to get a machine that will work really well on location. And I think that Wonka will be a very recognizable game on location. What are the things that you're thinking of for your next game? And if you can tell me, how do you have a Whitewood that you're working on?
    28:52
    I do have a Whitewood. I've been playing it for a couple months now and working on refining it and getting it to production ready status. So working on, you know, fun, interesting, fast gameplay. Pirates is very fast and interesting to play, and I think this game will feel different than Pirates. I don't know how much more I can say about it, but it's definitely a different feel in the game than Pirates is. Awesome. Well, we don't want to be asking you what your next title is and all that jazz. We've learned from Franchi we're not supposed to do that, so we're not going to be doing that here.
    29:42
    So what has been your favorite thing about working at JJP so far? What has been the, wow, this is amazing? Um, probably the most surreal aspect. I've told this story a couple of times. I don't know if I've done it on interviews or not, but working. So as a double degree holding engineer, something I never thought I would do in my life was direct a Hollywood actor. So for Pirates of the Caribbean, when we hired Kevin McNally to do the script, it was a script that I wrote, me personally. I wrote the script and then in the studio I directed Mr. McNally on how to say jackpot and multiball and things like that. Mr. McNally, thank you for taking the time out of performing at Shakespeare's Globe Theatre, which he came into the recording studio on his day off from doing, I think it was Macbeth, at the Globe Theatre. Holy crap, real actor here. Can you please emphasize Jackpot with a little more growl in it? You know, and it was just completely out of this world. You know, something that never in my in my head as an engineer in school would have thought I would be directing a Hollywood actor.
    30:59
    Well, I don't know if you can say anything to this or not, but was it with working with him? Was there times he just kind of rolled his eyes at you when you're like, you got it sounded great, but you should do this a little differently. Nope, he was completely on board with everything. I mean, we did probably 25 or 30 different recordings of Jackpot, and he just kept interjecting with new ones and different ones and different emphasis, and he was amazing to work with. Really was passionate about the project, even though he wasn't into pinball. He was just excited about it and asked me to email him pictures of the game and how this is going to be used and video clips and stuff like that. So he was super into it. That's way awesome.
    31:47
    Like you said with the actor, sometimes they come in and they're not into pinball. Has there ever been a time where you guys have been like, this is our project, and they got into it and they're like, holy crap, this is awesome. And then they wanted to be a part of it as in like they wanted a machine and to get more involved or is it pretty much kind of just business as usual?
    32:08
    It definitely happened in Pirates for sure. Working with Disney and getting the licensing taken care of with them was difficult. I'll leave it there. I mean, I had 14 different people's contact info at Disney that I was working with on a weekly basis. I was doing all of the day-to-day work in the licensing with them, trying to get things approved and such. Once they actually got a game in their hands and were able to see it and flip it, I got so many emails from people just say, I get it. I understand what you're doing and why you're asking for so much because they're used to licensing a lunchbox or a plush toy that has like three sound calls in it. And I was asking for thousands of video clips and stills of actors and, you know, trying to get the hand-drawn look for all the actors and they push back on stuff like that. Like, well, we'll have to go and get this approved by all the different actors. I'm like, yeah, you will. And I'm going to ask, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire to make you do that because this is what makes a pinball look good. We want to have as much hand-drawn art and show that we're passionate about this project. And this is what people love to see. So they, the emails I got from them saying we get it after getting their hands on the game was really fulfilling that they understood and finally saw the passion that went into the project. Yeah, I think by far, now this is me projecting, I've never had to deal with a license, but I can assume that the bigger the license, the more that the licensor has at risk because they've already put in thousands to millions of dollars in building this brand and they want to make sure that whatever you're doing is going to tell the story that they want to tell. Which is why I'm sure that dealing with some of these bigger licenses, it can be very challenging for a pinball designer because they're saying, well, we would like to do this, we'd like to do that. And that's why the big licenses like the Star Wars, the Pirates, all these type of licenses that have made billions of dollars for Disney or any other company, that they're pretty jealous about how they're going to present their product. And I'm sure it's the same way with even a classic license, something like Wonka, that they're trying to say, well, because another movie is not coming out anytime soon, we want to make sure whatever you're selling is going to be in keeping with our vision of the brand, the product placement, etc. Is that a fair assessment of how to look at it? That is absolutely correct. And looking at it from the license holders point of view. So Disney, for example, with pirates, I wanted and I think most of the pinball community wanted.
    35:22
    He's a pirate, the theme song for Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. And I asked and I and I presented a case and I pleaded for it. And Disney music holders, which was the group that I had to work with there, said, we're sorry, our hands are tied. Jerry Bruckheimer does not want this to be used in a game. Like, well, why does he get to choose that? He doesn't he doesn't own the music. You know, it's owned by Hans Zimmer. But then taking a step back and realizing that I, from a pinball, you know, a pinball license is a drop in the bucket of the money that Jerry Bruckheimer brings to Disney. They're like, no, we're just not going to ruffle feathers and try to convince Jerry Bruckheimer that, you know, he needs to give up his music or his decision here. So he personally didn't want the music in the game, and that's kind of where it stopped. And I asked a couple more times, and I was told no again. Well, I can appreciate it from their standpoint, is saying that this is not a big enough deal for Disney if they said it's already been addressed and they've kind of moved on. That's why they have style guides and everything like that in a theme. And yeah, I will say that I actually don't have the JJP one yet, but I do have the Stern one. And I actually have a friend who made a custom sound package. So I actually have that music.
    36:59
    Nice. But I look forward to having right now I have Black Rose and I have the Stern Pirates. And I look forward to at some point in the future getting the JJP one so I can have an all pirates area. That would be fun. So we know that JJP has taken Pirates off the line or is taking it off the line and you guys have the license for the next three years. Are you guys looking at putting it back on the line at some point? Because we've heard that there's still plenty of demand for it, but we just didn't. We wanted to, I guess, clear some of that up. Right. Officially, the company has not stated that we will never make Pirates again. So I'll leave it at that. It makes sense to me that if there is still demand that we would run the game again, but that is not my decision. You know, the decision was that Wonka was ready to go. Let's get that on the line and we'll probably see where we are after Wonka has sold thousands of units. Yeah, I have a feeling that it's nice to actually mix things up. We know how many releases Wizard of Oz has gone through. And being able to go back and say, hey, there's more demand, let's make more. I would be shocked if at some point, Jersy Jack doesn't do the same thing. It's like, okay, we've made tons of Wonkas, now let's go back and make a few of these other ones so we can sell them too. Because there are a lot of these games that are kind of a slow growth game where people, they get it and they don't realize how much of demand there will be until they've kind of moved on. And that's the beauty of modern manufacturing techniques that you can actually go back and do a quick run of 100, 200, 300 to fulfill the demand. So I'm sure that this is me talking, not you, but I would be shocked if we didn't see another 500 run of Pirates in the next year. So I guess that pretty much wraps it up for the questions that we had for you, Eric. Is there anything else you want to talk about or is there another question that you had, Scott?
    39:10
    Nothing else that comes to mind that I need to get off my chest. So, Scott, if you have another question, I'm still open. Let's see. Let me take a second. Okay, here's a question. Have you ever been to Over the Rainbow?
    39:24
    Oh, yes. I have not legitimately been to Over the Rainbow. I helped, you know, when we were playtesting it, when we made the program, programmed it so that when you hit one button, it started somewhere with a rainbow. That was fun. But the closest I've gotten to on my personal game at home was six of the jewels. So have you been to Pure Imagination then yet? Well, that's not in the game yet, so not yet. Okay. He's been there in his mind. He has been there. Right. Actually, while we're talking right now, the programmers, basically there's six programmers that are working on the game, and five of them are doing their own wizard modes or wizard mode-esque concepts. So that stuff is coming together right now as we're recording it. And yesterday I got to play one, which was a whole lot of fun.
    40:18
    And there's two others that are active and playable in the game. So I'm excited for the next software release. You know, when we start the production, it'll have those wizard modes in it, and it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, cool. I think that's all the questions we had. So we really appreciate having you on Eric and taking time out of your busy schedule to sit down with us and answer these us little guys questions that we had for you Yeah No we really appreciate it We know that this is your job This is our hobby but we appreciate that you actually are taking time off valuable time to actually talk to us on our hobby And I certainly look forward to meeting you at some point in the future and getting you to sign my Pirates Translite when I pick it up. Nice. I will absolutely do that. Actually, I carry Playfield decal, apron decals, generally with me at every show. And if I meet someone who has a Pirates, I'm more than happy to sign an apron decal for them and they can put it on their game when they get home. Just because I'm not in the factory every day, so I'm not able to sign games as easily. But this is sort of a way that from my Chicago office and at shows and stuff, I can still sign people's games for them. So it's awesome. Life of a rock star, right?
    41:38
    Thank you. Yeah. Well, again, thanks again. We really appreciate everything you're doing for it. And I am ecstatic that we have new blood going into the industry that is really pushing pinball forward. And certainly appreciate what the the legends, the legendary designers have done up to this point. And I think it's time to pass the baton in a figurative way to the new guys and say, now let's work together and see when you guys take a new design, let's see what the old guys can do. And then back and forth. I love this back and forth that you guys have that will give us more things that we haven't seen yet in pinball. Yeah, man. Totally.
    42:24
    Well, awesome. Thanks again, Eric. We appreciate it. Yeah, thanks, guys. It was a pleasure. Thanks. All right, Scott, now that we've wrapped up that interview, what were some of the takeaways that you had with it? I think the takeaway is that the people involved in the pinball industry are just as passionate about it and probably even more so than even us casual fans or even rabid fans. I think that it shows that there are certainly business aspects that go along and this is the challenge with a lot of times what happens is when we look at something, we're looking at it from how it affects us or a certain fan population. But really there are so many components to just running a business and to trying to stay afloat that it's so challenging for them to walk that line. But I think that in the end, they're trying to put out the best product and they want to stand behind it. You can hear by his voice how excited he is to be part of pinball, which is really challenging if it's your hobby and also your job because eventually at some point your hobby becomes work. And that's a really challenging thing to maintain. What did you think? I agree. I think that between, well, not only that, but we kind of talked about family and being able to balance that and still be able to enjoy the hobby. You know, I'm always afraid if someone gets into this hobby as a profession and you're behind the curtain and whatever happens behind there that we don't know kind of puts a bitter taste in your mouth. But it sounds like, like you said, a lot of these people, it's a passion and it's just amplified through it. And so it was kind of cool to see that. It sounds like they have some more operated, focused ambitions, which is kind of cool because I feel like no one really competes with Stern in that market. So it will be good to see what happens with Wonka. Yeah, so I would say that certainly there are aspects of it. It did sound like they were trying to push to be a little less boutique type pinball and trying to be a little more mass marketing. I'm not sure that it's going to be a radical change from what their path is, but you're right. I think they are certainly trying to capture the location aspect of Pinball that really Stern has dominated forever.
    45:03
    Because for the last five years, when Wizard of Oz jumped into the market with Jersey Jack Pinball, location Pinball was almost non-existent. It really had just evaporated to the point where it was a home collection market. But I think that we've seen at least a resurgence of location pinball, and I think that they are wisely adapting to market trends.
    45:33
    I agree. You know, and after everything that I've heard, you know, just to recap, if you guys didn't know, we were on Head to Head Pinball podcast last week. We got to talk about Wonka, but the problem was we kind of was talking about it as it was being revealed. And so we didn't get to see everything that was thrown at the production of this. I mean, it was amazing that Special Winlet did the panel discussion live. Buffalo did the live stream, which was amazing. And Straight Down the Middle had all the fantastic behind-the-scenes footage. But we were trying to cram to record the show because we recorded it, what, an hour and a half after the stream had started? And so I think some of it kind of fell loose in translation, so to speak. And so a lot of the things... Well, we were doing it mid-reveal and mid-gameplay. And so this was really a gut first impression, which is what a lot of people lock in their decision on, on how they like a game. And it takes a lot to really change their entrenched position. So I still stand by my initial first take on Wonka. I think it'll be a great game. I think if you're a Lawler fan, I think it will still sell tons of units. And I think this could be another evergreen title they can go back to. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if they are able to put out a new machine and manufacture that for four to five months and then the other seven months go back and pick some of these evergreen titles, work on Wizard of Oz, probably do some more Pirates because I know Pirates were underproduced compared to the demand. And at some point I wouldn't be surprised if, hey, Dialed In gets another role because, hey, it's a great game. Yeah. So the thing I was going to say was, you know, some of the complaints that have been coming out is artwork. And the artwork is the same on the play field across all of them. And so I didn't really get it until I saw the side artwork. Really on the standards, I know that they're focusing it towards an operator market. So it's not that big of an issue if there's not really artwork on it because when you go to see pinball machines or play them on location, they're usually in between each other. And so you're not really going to see the side stuff. And from what I'm listening to is a lot of people that like this title are going to go with either the LE or the collector's edition. So it doesn't really matter on the side artwork on that stuff because it's going to be in your home. And so that's going to be nicer compared to the SE. And so I think they're smart with what they're doing. They're not really taken away from the gameplay. The key, and I think Jack knows this, I think everyone down there knows this, the key to this is just hitting those markers like they said. They want to do the 60 days between the showing of the game to out the door. And I really hope that they can keep to that. I really think that's one of the secrets to competing in this market on a Stern level. I agree. And side art is, of all the art that I care about, side art is the last factor. Yes, it's interesting, it's cool, but all of my pins are lined up next to each other. The only one I actually see is Attack from Mars remake because that's the first thing I see when I walk down the stairs. But all the other ones, I never see the side art. And so really I care about playfield art and backglass. But ultimately that is the first impression. And then once you start playing the game, a lot of that stuff kind of disappears. If it's fun, if it brings you in, but ultimately it is how the game plays. And if it's fun enough and it brings you into that experience, whatever you're looking for. I agree. And honestly, I think between me and you and Martin, we were kind of the adage, not a home title yet, but getting our hands on it is what's going to determine this. I like the theme. I know that you and Martin weren't so hip on it, but I really think that this is a game that if it plays as buttery smooth as everyone's claiming, it could be quite the fun game to have. And there's nothing wrong with saying that the game is not for my home collection. No, not at all. I will still put $20, $50 in this game over time just on location if it's there or go to someone's house and play. I know two people. I know one person who actually is getting the collector's edition or planning on it and one person who's getting the LE.
    50:24
    So I'll definitely get my hands on it. And I think that that is part of looking at the market and saying you can't buy every game. If you did, Stern has four games a year. Let's just assume JJP is going to stick to one game a year. So that's five. Spooky every 18 months or so, that's six. And then there's going to be other players in the market that are going to be doing things, Chicago Gaming Company. And so I can't buy six or seven games a year. Yeah. So you have to pick what you identify with, what draws to you, and that's the reason why they do different themes. And so, hey, that speaks to me, that one doesn't, okay, move on. Yep. Well, speaking of moving on, maybe we should move on to news. I think everyone's heard enough about Wonka, we're just excited to now finally get our hands on it. But moving on to the news, have you checked this out, the new Deep Root Raza teaser trailer? I did, and I think that it's certainly possible that this will be hilarious.
    51:35
    I think that in pinball, a lot of things that have gone right for Stern in trying to go for music pins, trying to go for movie franchises, trying to throw in the occasional oddball, But for the most part, and what you have Mustang in there, you could probably throw Black Knight in there. But it's they're all pretty mainstream themes, which are completely different than the approach of Williams in the 90s. Yeah. Williams in the 90s had a lot of these campy tongue in cheek. Hey, we're just having fun and we're not taking ourselves too seriously themes. And if it's done right, then the humor can be fun. If it's done wrong and it falls flat, we've all been to that movie that thought it was hilarious and it's just painful when you're trying – when you can tell they're trying to be funny but it lands flat. Yep. So I think that there's certainly that potential here. However, I think it looks great. I think it looks fun. I like the quirkiness of J-pop.
    52:48
    And let's just throw out his bad business adventure on the side. If you look at his playfield designs, they're fun. Oh, yeah. And they're certainly innovative. My friend has a Circus Volterra, which is absolutely beautiful. And I told him that you can never sell that game because you'll never find another one that is in that great condition. And I asked him, he has the best of Valley Williams of the 90s. And I asked him, hey, what games do people play the most? And he said, they come over and they always play two games the most. They play Whitewater and they play Circus Voltaire. Yeah. And it's something's different and distinct about those two games. And I think if they can capture that, I think there is a market for that. And if Deep Root is able to resurrect some of that Bally Williams campiness and the fun in pinball, I think that is an underserved and untapped market right now. Yep. Well, and looking at the video itself, the artwork looks really good. And so I hope that translates into the game as well. I hope that we can see these as LCD animations and that everything else follows right in suit. Honestly, to wrap this all up on Deeper, I'm just ready. I'm ready to see something. I like the teaser trailer. We've been hearing this for a year and a half now, I think, and I'm ready to see behind the curtain.
    54:18
    They've got a star-studded cast. They've got games that everyone sounds like they're going to enjoy. It's time. So, that's my hope for them. I hope so. I certainly hope they're able to do something. And really, even if they come into the market, and I know they're talking as if they're going to outproduce Stern, I think if they are able to do something that JJP is doing, maybe somewhere between JJP and Stern, because it sounds like Deep Root is going to try to be more of a volume distributor, I think that will certainly go a long way. Hopefully it will open up the market a little bit. I agree.
    55:01
    So today I was listening to the Slap Save Pinball podcast and it sounds like they've got a new segment on here. Have you heard this new segment with Christopher Franchi? You know, I haven't, so fill me in. So it is around the play field with Christopher Franchi and his dog Barlow. But no, it sounded really good. Franchi went off. It was edited really well. I don't know if Franchi's doing all the little movie clips that went in with it, but it sounded really good. It was really fun, and I thought he did an awesome job playing off of his dog with all the barking and whatnot and the gruffing. If you haven't listened to it, I don't want to spoil any of it. Go to Slap Save Pinball Podcast, check it out. Good episode, not only for Franchi, but Slap Save themselves. I know that Chris has walked away and now they have Matt on there with Jason and it sounds good. I think they're trying to find some of their footing. It's a little different to go from one host to another or co-host. And so it's starting to flow really well. And so congratulations, guys. Sounds good. Yeah, I think it's good. Chris obviously is one of the most vocal, passionate, opinionated guys out there. And I think that's good. You can bring that to the pinball marketplace and people like seeing that. Everybody brings their personality. Chris brings a personality. Lyman Sheets has his own personality. It's not that vocal. He's kind of that programmer in the corner who is willing to just do his job and not be the over-the-top personality guy. And then there's John Borg who's the skateboarder guy. So, hey, it's always good to see a little more about these people that we've grown to be fans of and their work. If they're able to put out podcast content that allows people to see them more, God bless. And speaking of people putting out podcast content that is kind of pinball celebrity, Raymond Davidson put out his own pinball podcast. He's on episode three right now. He is the number one ranked IFPA player in the whole world and his points aren't even close to the second place. He's like 1100 plus and the next guy's like 930. So he decided to make his own pinball podcast about tournaments and strategy. It's really good. If you're into that kind of stuff, check it out. Might get some tips, might get some pointers on how to help with your next competition. Now, if you think about this, this is pretty amazing. I don't know of any other competitive environment where the top players readily give away advice. They're telling you how you can beat them if you're willing to listen to them. Now, they're also confident in their abilities and they say, look, I'm still going to beat you even if you have all my knowledge. But that's kind of an amazing thing when you think about how transparent the top players are. And Bone's been doing his tutorials for years. Raymond Now is doing his own thing and he's going to be telling you, hey, here's the tips of the trade and this is the way I approach a game. I mean, that's really unheard of in any other competitive setting. I can't think of anything else that would really come close. What do you think? I totally agree. It's unheard of on any sport level. So it's very awesome that people want to win based off of their skill and not necessarily knowing a shortcut. Yeah. Basically, they're not taking the easy way out. They're going to say, look. Correct. We're all playing by the same rules. And certainly knowing the rule set certainly plays to your advantage. And I'm one of those guys where I have not put in the time to learn a lot of these rule sets. I'm like marching from head to head that way. I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to really blow up a game if I'm playing against someone who knows what they're doing. So next we have a Black Knight sighting in Salt Lake City at our local bar slash arcade that we have. We have a Black Knight Pro. I haven't had a chance to play it personally. Have you been able to go out, Josh, and see it? I haven't, but our former champion, state champion, Stephen Strom, as soon as he found out I was there, he lives in Elko, Nevada, which is what, is it a two-hour drive, three-hour drive?
    59:57
    Yeah, it's between two and three hours. He just was like, I'm going to be there. And the funny part is he travels out to Salt Lake for various reasons, and he just was out here. So he's like, gosh, dang it, I got to come out and play it. And next thing I know on Facebook, he's taking pictures and posting and saying, this game is amazing. And so there was plenty of comments on the Black Knight, and they all seem to be positive.
    60:26
    Not to say that's a bad, like, not shock or anything. It's a Steve Ritchie, so it's definitely going to be killer. But one of the general themes that keeps coming back from the pro is, I'm going to try to do this in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger voice. You ready for this? Go ahead. It's totally brutal.
    60:45
    That was terrible. But everyone's loving it. They say that it's got a lot of good gameplay there, but it's also kicking your butt because you've got to decide what you're going to hit. But it's also got the flow, so you don't want to stop.
    61:03
    Do you know what it feels like Huh It feels like Mortal Kombat No I serious It feels like that what they going for You going for a brutal game You going for this high octane high energy game And yes it going to be fast And yes it going to be brutal But it has that feel of Mortal Kombat. And so I think they certainly got the tone right. I can't imagine a different way of doing the Black Knight. And so they captured exactly what people like about the Black Knight. I agree. And I think it looks, like I said, you know, there was a lot of talk from the streams that looked like it was a right flipper dominated game. I wasn't getting that from the comments either. It looks like it's pretty well rounded in what you can do with both flippers. Well, again, this is a game that you need to have very similar elements to Black Knight and Black Knight 2000. So they have to at least make it fit the theme. And so if they did a radical change of the playfield, it really wouldn't be the Black Knight. You wouldn't feel that same connection. And the people who really are into this game or excited about this game, they played the Black Knight. They played Black Knight 2000. And now they are excited to have the next release.
    62:40
    I agree. Well, and I just, like I said, I can't wait to get my hands on it. We'll have to do something here soon. I'll have to get my butt up there and we'll have to play it. Yeah, so I did just Google how long it would take to get from Elko, Nevada to Kido's Brewing and it's 3 hours 27 minutes. Nice. Thank you for making the travel, Steven. Yes. Now, that is commitment, my friend. That's the reason why he's the state champ, because it would take me about 40 minutes to get to Kido's and I still haven't been up there.
    63:11
    And it's a three-hour and small drive for me as well, but I haven't run out there yet, so I guess I can't make that same.
    63:19
    So, do you follow the strictly custom pinballs that Jake Danzing has put on Facebook? I have done some custom pinballs, re-themes. There are some of them that I think are amazing looking and it certainly – I love a re-theme, especially when it's a passion project. When you usually have the LCD or the color DMD, it's a little more difficult because there's some programming issues that don't just readily translate to a re-theme. But I certainly appreciate the passion project of someone if they say, look, I want to make this machine. Well, this last week in that group, the Strictly Custom Pinball machines, it has been blowing up with a new homebrew. So Brian Soares along with professional wrestler Matt Hardy's wife Jessica Hardy took a Stern Mustang and they rethemed the whole game from top to bottom, code everything into Matt Hardy's expedition for gold. And it's really cool because they surprised him with it. But we'll put the video in the show notes. But this game has been done more professionally than some of the other manufacturers that are putting games out there right now. And I'm not going to pick on anyone. But it's crazy because the way that he did this game is it's got blacklight integrated with a lot of greens and purples. And so there's a part where it kind of shuts off the lights and does kind of blacklight.
    64:54
    And it's just the code's all there. It's all Matt Hardy. You're working on instead of collecting the Mustangs, you're collecting the different titles from the different wrestling groups out there. I'm sorry I don't follow wrestling very much, so I don't fully understand everything behind it, but the artwork's all custom. I mean, this thing is beautiful, and it's just crazy, the love and effort that went into it. And even more cool is how much Matt Hardy appreciated it from his family. And so a couple of videos on there between gameplay and showing off Matt being surprised with it. Fantastic. Absolutely cool. I would love to see Tommy Skinner get his hand on this game because he is so into professional wrestling. He loves it. He is a great pinball player, and I would love to see how he feels about it. And what you're saying about a custom game, that's not too surprising to say that, hey, a one-off game, someone can throw the kitchen sink at it. They can do a billion things to it that look higher end than your standard run-of-the-mill release. And that's because they're not – this is what custom car people do is they take a car and then they put $50,000 into it. And they could probably sell it for $45. So they're never going to make their money off it because they're like, no, I want this. I want the chrome. I want the laser. I want the bubble machine. I want the monkey on the chain. All these kind of crazy things that you just wouldn't be able to do if you're doing a mass production game. And so that doesn't surprise me, but yes, it does look fantastic. It is certainly high polish and high gloss. And if this is someone's passion project, then hey, I think it's amazing. I love seeing these type of things. Well, that wraps it up for our news notes that we have. I wanted to do a couple more things before we shut it down. I want to do a quick shout out to Randy Bowman. He reached out to us after last episode and said that he listens to podcasts on Player FM and he knows that we weren't on there and he enjoys our podcast. He'd been just listening via SoundCloud. And so he asked to help us out and he got us on Player FM. So we really appreciate that, Randy, for doing that. And he also wanted to know that he appreciates that we keep it family friendly. Well, there you go.
    67:33
    No, I appreciate that. And you know what? The thing is with all these podcasts is you just have to find out. There's so many options out there. And there are so many, you know, just think of it as tables at a cafeteria and you can find your group, like which group you identify with, which group you gel with and you like their take. And that's the beautiful part of having podcasts is that there are so many just you can find your thing. This is our thing. And so I love that there are at least a few people at our table and, you know, also shop around. There's lots of awesome tables out there that I appreciate what they do.
    68:16
    Well, and we received an email this week, so I kind of gave you the heads up on it, but I didn't really tell you what was in it. So shall I read it to you and see what your thoughts are? So lay it on me. Okay. This is from Steven Haberman. He said, I heard you on Head to Head. Would love to hear more about your thoughts on games coming into your home that aren't family friendly. I have a faith-based life, and though my wife would not fight me on any games coming in, I have a four-year-old daughter, and she scares easily. I would prefer devil or demon themes not to be in the home, and I've been in the hobby for three years, Though I can only fit three to four games, I have swapped through about 14 at this point. Just wanted to know if you keep scary games out of the house, and or, if not, do the kids play them?
    69:05
    Okay, so you and I both have a kid around the same age. My oldest is eight. How old's your oldest? Eight. Yeah, so same age. We've got them together and they both play together. You know what? Here's the challenge with kids playing games is that they will play them occasionally.
    69:31
    But for the most part, they're going to be playing, you know, if you're down there and you're playing a game, they may come down. And as they get older, they will probably start understanding more if you're into the games. And they'll start saying, oh, maybe I want to play this. Maybe I want to be able to spend some time with that on this on this weird hobby that is most people don't even know exists anymore. Yeah. So when it comes to themes, the way I look at it, there's so many games out there that I would absolutely play and I would love. I have said it before. I grew up with Iron Maiden. My first concert was an Iron Maiden concert when I was 13 and I snuck out and I told my parents I was going to watch movies at my friend's house.
    70:18
    So went to that concert. It was a crazy story and I would love to have an Iron Maiden pinball machine. And that being said, I look at that and say, yeah, I've got an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and a four-year-old, and I think it's going to be a little too intense for them. So it's not one that I would put in the house at this time. I understand that as we get older, we kind of see either the camp of it or just be able to have fun with it. But there are also themes that I wouldn't put in my house because like The Walking Dead, I think The Walking Dead is a fantastic game. But man, that color DMD, coloring of that, it's a little cringeworthy at times. And A, it completely fits the theme of the game. But it's just too much for me. And so when I'm selecting games, I try to select games that anybody who comes through the door is going to be comfortable. Now, everybody chooses their own way of setting up their game room. There are certainly a lot of alternative translates that are very risque. And I'm sure that there are tons of people who have those type of things. And that's just how they set up their game room. So I think it's just your personal approach. Your personal approach is, hey, what works for me and my family? You certainly don't want to pick a game that will cause friction with your family. I agree. And I know people who have sold games, they bought a game, and even if it's just campy or maybe a little bit, kind of raise your eyebrow.
    72:19
    But the one thing is this is stereotypically one person who has a passion and then the partner or spouse usually tolerates it. And if you find something that your partner or spouse is not really into, that's just one more thing that makes it more challenging to own this expensive box of lights that you put in your house that you could put a down payment on a car on. Yeah. So that's my take on it. I have really selected things. The most risque theme I have is Black Rose. And for the most part, it really is very, I would say G slash PG. What is your approach when you're picking out games? So my approach is that I actually sit down with my wife and we kind of go through the possible candidates of pinball machines that come into our house. And we talk about, I actually go and kind of study the pinball machine. We talked about The Walking Dead, but after Carter went and saw it at one of the local competitions and he did say that it would probably give him nightmares, we decided best not to bring that one in. The only other one that has been kind of risque that we thought about not bringing in was ACDC. And the reason for that one was is there's some imagery in there that, like you said, at first they might not get it. But I'm afraid keeping it in the home over time, like she shook me all night long with women getting into the car and shaking the car along with the lady.
    74:01
    Oh, crap. It's one of the song modes. It's going to drive me nuts. And someone's probably going to message us and say what it is, but it's the one where it has the giant inflatable doll. And every time you hit the pop bumper, her boobs jiggle up and down. And so those are two that we've decided against. I've never had an urge to have like a go-gar in the house. And so it's never been an issue for me. But for the most part, we just try to keep it something that our children can enjoy as well. So I've noticed that like with when we have Revenge for Mars, Carter loved the Mars needs women mode. And it was kind of weird because he would gravitate to that a lot.
    74:43
    And I just thought it was kind of kooky. Not saying it's a terrible mode and you shouldn't have in your home because of it. But when an alien is massaging a naked woman and she says, oh, that feels good. And he's like, tell me more, baby. And she freaks out. You know, I don't know. It just we decide that's why I kind of one of the reasons kind of upgraded to Attack from Mars. And like I said earlier in the interview, the only other one was High Roller Casino. And yeah, I wasn't planning on keeping it. So it wasn't a big issue when my wife's like, we probably shouldn't have this here if Carter thinks to the women on her naked. Yeah. Well, I think this is interesting. You don't realize how many – what word am I searching for? Things that aren't kid-friendly until you have kids or you start watching them with kids. Yep. If you're watching – The Indy Winandos and stuff like that. If you're watching any 80s film, a lot of times you pick up on, wow, I don't remember there's this much swearing in it, or wow, I didn't realize how much innuendo is in there. And I think that that's pretty common. There's a reason why there is a family-friendly comedian out there. There are family-friendly movies out there because it does get a little awkward when you have that. And again, you have to pick your lane. I know someone who I talked to and they said they watch Game of Thrones with their entire family. We're talking parents. We're talking she watches it with her spouse and she has her kids. And when it's a crazy scene, she's like, OK, under the blanket. And so that's how they do it. Yeah, that's not that's not for me. And that's the again, it's the beautiful part in pinball is that you get to choose your lane, what you're comfortable with, what you're not comfortable with, and you find that happy spot. I think the best thing is kind of look at all those things that are if you're if you're making your own collection, take your family. Hey, what do you think of this game? Do you like this game? Do you like the theme? So if you look at mine, mine is very family friendly. I have Simpsons, I have Tron, I have X-Men, I have Pirates of the Caribbean, I have Shrek. You know, this is all those things that would really fit in fine with most families. Maybe there are some things about – you could argue that X-Men, the characters on there are dressed a little risque because it's that retro 80s, 90s comic book style where they took some liberties with some costumes. I'll put it that way.
    77:48
    Yeah. But I don't really notice that and my family hasn't said that so I'm okay with it. Yeah. Well like I was saying before too just sit down with your wife and go through some of the aspects. There's some things that you're probably listening to and like holy crap like they don't allow anything in their houses and there's some of you like yeah that makes sense why you're not doing that. But every household is different. And one recommendation I would make too is pick games that aren't – like pick themes that aren't going to make your kids then want to watch whatever it is. So like you said, Game of Thrones, if I brought a Game of Thrones into my home and then my 8-year-old started loving the game, he then in turn wants to know what the theme is about. So then he'd want to watch Game of Thrones and it would become a fight because then it's like, well, I don't understand this game's in our house, but we can't watch the show. So there are some interesting conversations I've had with some of the games that have come in the house. Not saying any of them were terrible or anything like that, but it's like The Simpsons.
    78:53
    You know, depending on which household you come from, it's either people love The Simpsons and all their kids can watch it and some families don't like it and they don't want their kids to watch it. So when I brought in Simpsons, my son wanted to watch Simpsons. It was a fight for a while. And we ended up, we didn't, I didn't ever let him watch it just because I feel like he's a little young for some of the humor. But, but yeah, that would be my suggestion. So you sold Simpsons and bought a family guy, right?
    79:22
    Yes, exactly. Because I wanted Sperm Multiball. Yeah. But I, and this is, this is so great that you just, everybody gets to choose their own lane. And guess what? You're buying the machine, so you get to make the choice. Yep, exactly. I just think that as long as you're finding things that the family can accept, it certainly makes your life easier. So I actually think when I look at Gorgar, Lost World or something, I look at that and I think, you know what? That reminds me of those fantasy books from the 70s or 80s. And so I would be okay with it, but I know my wife wouldn't. The women are a little too scantily clad for her taste, and that's fine.
    80:12
    There are so many games out there that it's not a big deal for me. Well, let's wrap this up. We've been going for quite some time now. I hope you guys are enjoying your Friday. It's Wednesday for us, but by the time this releases, it'll be Friday. Just a couple more shout-outs. We talked about a bunch of pinball podcasts last week or two weeks ago, and there is one that we missed. And I feel terrible because this man is a legend amongst the pinball community. I think he doesn't get enough recognition for what he does, and he never goes around touting that he isn't the top. But in my book, he is what professionalism is when it comes to pinball podcasting. So I just wanted to give a shout out to Jeff Teolis, man. You do a great job. Jeff certainly does his best impression of being the awesome radio promoter. He's a pro. Yep. So other than that, I think that pretty much does it for us, Scott. You got anything else for me? No, I think we're good. I'm going to wrap up here and try to get to Keto's this weekend. Awesome. Sounds good to me. Hopefully I can join you.
    81:27
    All right. Sounds good. All right. Later, man.