Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Episode 104 - John Borg: The Man Who Doesn't F*&k Around

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 3m·held·Nov 3, 2025
View original

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Deep career retrospective on legendary Stern designer John Borg from Gottlieb through modern era.

Summary

This podcast episode is a career retrospective on John Borg, Stern Pinball longest-tenured designer, covering his 37+ year trajectory from Gottlieb through Data East, Sega, and Stern. The hosts discuss his mechanical engineering background, signature design philosophies (fast turnaround, no-nonsense efficiency), iconic games across multiple eras, and the evolution of his design style from complex multi-ramp titles to streamlined cost-cut era games. Key themes include his reputation for shipping games on tight deadlines, his influence on modern pinball design, and how he became indispensable to Stern during the company's cost-reduction period.

Key Claims

  • John Borg started at D. Gottlieb & Co. as a mechanical engineer and designed the System 3 pointy-boy flippers that the community widely dislikes.

    high confidence · Alan and Alex discuss D. Gottlieb & Co. career, with detailed explanation of the three-piece flipper construction and screw-top design decision for perceived premium appearance.

  • Star Wars (1992) earned $500 per week at 25 cents per play (2,000 plays/week) at a Rock and Roll McDonald's test location.

    high confidence · Alan cites John Borg own account of the game's performance, noting this was an extraordinarily high earning rate for the era and illustrating why 1990s games generated vastly more revenue than modern titles.

  • Star Wars was John Borg first game design credit and became Data East USA Inc.. highest-selling game ever at 10,400 units.

    high confidence · Hosts state this was Borg's first major design role immediately after joining Data East, contrasting with his previous mechanical engineering work at Gottlieb.

  • Last Action Hero was a design-by-committee game where all of Data East USA Inc.. designers (Borg, Ed Cebula, Joe Kaminkow, Tim Seckel) plus programmer Lyman F. Sheats Jr. received credits, and nobody wanted sole credit.

    high confidence · Alan references Pinball Expo career retrospective seminar, explaining the collaborative and potentially muddled creative process.

  • John Borg was laid off from Stern twice and spent seven years away before being rehired, with Indiana Jones as his first game back.

    medium confidence · Alan mentions Borg disclosed this during a personal conversation, noting Borg was rehired during a cost-cutting era when Stern needed efficient designers.

  • In 2010, John Borg was the only designer left at Stern and designed Big Buck Hunter, Iron Man, and Avatar back-to-back as the sole designer.

    high confidence · Hosts state this as fact, noting Stern had not renewed other designer contracts, making Borg the only active design resource.

  • John Borg was attacked by a mountain lion named Curtis while visiting Slash's house during Guns N' Roses pinball development.

Notable Quotes

  • “that's because I don't fuck around”

    John Borg @ N/A — Borg's signature phrase encapsulating his work ethic and efficiency; becomes the episode title and core theme of his professional identity.

  • “If you have a chance to go to a show and John Borg there, make sure you go up and talk to him. He will tell amazing stories.”

    Alan @ N/A — Establishes Borg as an accessible, storytelling industry figure; reinforces his status as a mentor and personality in the community.

  • “That game had to get played 2,000 times a week. You know how hard that is?”

    Alan @ N/A — Highlights the stark difference in earning potential between 1990s and modern pinball, contextualizing Data East Star Wars' extraordinary revenue.

  • “Data East is just like watching Williams being like, okay, Terminator, okay, so it's an Arnold thing, right? Like Arnold works, we'll get an Arnold.”

    Alex @ N/A — Humorous observation on Data East's pragmatic approach to licensing during the 1990s, showing how successful IP strategy drove competition with Williams.

  • “Curtis is such a great name...for a wild animal you should not keep as a pet.”

    Alan @ N/A — Comic relief moment during discussion of Borg's dangerous encounter with Slash's cougar, emphasizing the absurdity of the situation.

  • “Some people really hate this game...this is cost cut era.”

    Alex @ N/A — Explains the shift in Borg's design approach during Stern's financial constraints, introducing the context for his later single-ramp designs.

  • “this is why they bring Borgie back. You know, they're done fucking around with Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawlor.”

    Alex @ N/A — Characterizes Borg's rehire as a strategic business decision during cost-cutting, contrasting his efficiency with other designers' complexity.

  • “Well, and everyone listening, you will be that curmudgeon. Eventually, you will be like, no, these new games are shit.”

Entities

John BorgpersonAlanpersonAlexpersonGary SternpersonSteve RitcheypersonPat LawlorpersonEd Cebulaperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: John Borg's core design methodology centers on rapid game completion without sacrificing quality. He can ship games yearly while other designers take longer; attributed to pragmatic approach and 'not fucking around.'

    high · Multiple references to Borg's ability to consistently deliver games on tight deadlines, contrasted with Steve Ritchey and Pat Lawlor's more complex, time-consuming designs during cost-cut era.

  • ?

    historical_signal: System 3 pointy-boy flippers represent a failed design decision intended to appear premium but achieved opposite effect; became industry pariah and died with Gottlieb. Represents design choice driven by perceived market perception rather than functionality.

    high · Detailed discussion of three-piece construction with screws added late to appear more premium, contrasting with molded plastic Williams design that became the standard.

  • $

    market_signal: Data East Star Wars (1992) demonstrated extraordinary earning potential ($500/week = 2,000 plays/week at $0.25), establishing 1990s as fundamentally different revenue environment from modern pinball. No current games approach these earnings.

    high · Direct quote from John Borg's account of Star Wars test location performance; hosts emphasize nothing in modern era matches this revenue potential.

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern deliberately shifted to cost-cut game designs in early 2010s, bringing back John Borg as sole designer after laying him off; moved from multi-ramp complex games to single-ramp efficient designs.

    high · Hosts explicitly state Stern needed someone to 'crank them out' and had stopped renewing other designer contracts, making Borg the only active design resource.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.190

0:00
Gagin' in Shadding, Ainah, Don't worry at night. Got no time, busy, yes, I'm working on a charge. It seems to me I could live my life, I'm not better than I think I am, I guess it's why they call me, they call me a working man, they call me the working man, I guess that's what I am.
0:47
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedge Head Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, your host of the show as always in the basement studio of my co-host house. It is Alex, the water boy. How are you doing? I'm doing great, Alan. I'm doing particularly great because it's my turn to plug the coffee fundraiser. That's right. If you go to ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast, you can find a form where you can enter your credit card information and give us $5 or more. Or more. You know, you can be generous, be our best friends, you can buy our friendship. Yeah, we're raising money always for trips to go play pinball in other locations. And also, you know, it benefits you, gets you an invite to our private Discord server where you can come and hang out and ask us questions about how we feel about new Star Wars and stuff like that. I've been told by people in plenty of Discords that our Discord is extra chaotic and very, very active. Ours is very active. You want to chop it up with us and everyone else that listens to the show. Former guest of the show, Zoe Vrabel. She'll come in. She'll wag her finger at me for saying that I don't like Jurassic Park. Or Greg Dunlap, who thinks every game besides five games made in the 90s are all bad games. If you want to hear any content from those people, you got to come into the Discord. Good time. It's a good time. There's a lot of strong opinions in that Discord, I will say. But it stays friendly. That's the important part. We're all friends there. It does usually stay pretty positive and friendly. But on this episode, we're going to talk about Stern Pinball's longest tenured pinball designer, John Borg, and take a look at his career, go through some of his games, explore the different versions of Stern that he worked at, and discuss some of the hallmarks of his game designs in detail on this episode. In honor of the super short deadlines that Borgie is known to design his game under, I'm also going to cut this intro short and jump right into the episode. Let's stop fucking around and get to talking about the guy who doesn't fuck around. John Borg. Which he famously told me the first time I met him at Texas Pinball Festival. I told it on an earlier episode of the show, but I remember talking to him and this is for everybody. If you have a chance to go to a show and John Borg's there, make sure you go up and talk to him. He will tell amazing stories. Now, I don't know if he's allowed to tell all these stories, so I'm not going to repeat them or whatever, but go see him at a show. He's very friendly, loves to talk to people, and he tells amazing stories. And I'm going to link a couple classic John Borg interviews. He did a top cast interview with him. It's fantastic that I pulled some information for. And also he gave a seminar at the last year's Pinball Expo that I went to the 40th. He did a career retrospective. And I'll link that in the show notes, too, if you want to hear more from Borgie himself. This was after the time he was the only designer left at Stern. Then he still felt like he was getting a game out every year. And certain designers like Steve or Brian weren't able to get their games out once every year. And I remember I asked Borgie, I was like, you know, your games, you always seem to get a game out. You just be pumped out. And he goes, I was like, what's the deal? Like, what happens? He's like, that's because I don't fuck around.

medium confidence · Alan references Borg's own storytelling at shows, describing the incident where Curtis knocked Borg down and put its mouth on his throat while they were petting it.

  • Borg was known for being able to pump out games every year while other designers like Steve Ritchey and Brian could not, and attributed it to the fact that 'he doesn't fuck around.'

    high confidence · Alan recounts a direct quote from Borg himself at Texas Pinball Festival, framing his work ethic and efficiency as his defining professional characteristic.

  • Gary Stern is an avid motorcyclist and snowboarder who personally influences music licensing decisions for games, such as selecting Edgar Winter Group's 'Frankenstein' for the Frankenstein pinball game.

    medium confidence · Alex speculates on Gary Stern's involvement in licensing choices based on personal interests, though this is presented as inference rather than confirmed fact.

  • Borg's original Jurassic Park T-Rex design was significantly more complex than the final version, including articulated head movement and little arms that would throw balls.

    medium confidence · Alan cites Pinball Expo retrospective account, explaining that a modified version of this design ended up in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

  • Alan @ N/A — Meta-commentary on generational gaming preferences and how the podcast hosts themselves will eventually become dinosaurs, illustrating cyclical industry culture.

  • “Steven Spielberg doesn't fuck around. You know, he's John Borg. Some would say he's the John Borg of movies.”

    Alan @ N/A — Tongue-in-cheek comparison that extends Borg's 'no-nonsense efficiency' ethos to film directors, reinforcing the phrase as shorthand for effective professionalism.

  • “It's got like a cool kind of hard shot back into the, you know, the little falling fucking max suit guy.”

    Alex @ N/A — Casual description of Avatar's mechanical centerpiece, illustrating how Borg's late-era single-ramp designs still incorporated memorable mechanical gimmicks.

  • Joe Kaminkow
    person
    Tim Seckelperson
    Lonnie D. Roppperson
    Lyman F. Sheats Jr.person
    Elliot Eisminperson
    Slashperson
    D. Gottlieb & Co.company
    Data Eastcompany
    Segacompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Star Warsgame
    Indiana Jonesgame
    Metallicagame
    Avatargame
    Iron Mangame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Wedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization

    design_innovation: Borg's signature approach includes distinctive moving mechanical centerpieces (T-Rex, Frankenstein arms, Max suit). Lost World's dinosaur snagger was intended as a featured mechanic despite minimal movie presence.

    high · Multiple examples: Jurassic Park T-Rex evolved into Frankenstein mech, Lost World snagger, Avatar Max suit, Baywatch and Apollo 13 complex mechanics.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: John Borg was laid off from Stern twice and spent seven years away before rehire during cost-cut era; represents volatile employment pattern in pinball design despite his high status.

    medium · Alan's account of Borg's personal disclosure about two layoff periods and seven-year gap before Indiana Jones rehire.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Last Action Hero's collaborative design with all Data East designers sharing credit resulted in lack of clear vision; suggests that collective authorship without clear lead designer can dilute quality.

    medium · Borg's explanation via Pinball Expo seminar that nobody wanted sole credit, contrasting with Tales from the Crypt where Borg was sole designer and considered his 'real sophomore.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Borg's cost-cut era single-ramp games (Indiana Jones, Avatar) were initially poorly received but community opinions have improved over time; new players appreciate them while old-timers dismissed them at release.

    medium · Alan's anecdote of being told by curmudgeons to play Williams games instead of Stern games as a new player; now he and the hosts defend these games' merits; Alan notes Avatar opinion has changed.

  • ?

    business_signal: Gary Stern's personal aesthetic preferences influence music and media licensing decisions for games, selecting iconic songs (Edgar Winter's Frankenstein) alongside IP themes for gameplay appeal.

    medium · Speculation about Gary Stern's involvement in licensing choices for Frankenstein and other games, attributed to his personal interests in music and motorcycling.

  • ?

    product_concern: Baywatch is noted as having infamously complex mechanics that break frequently, despite being well-loved; represents trade-off between design ambition and maintenance burden.

    medium · Alex's comment that Baywatch is 'infamously annoying to shop' with parts that break, contrasted with acknowledgment that the game 'fucking rules.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Different designers have distinct specialties: Pat Lawlor's toppers and innovation, Borg's efficiency and mechanical centerpieces, Ritchey's complexity; competitive differentiation based on design approach.

    medium · Discussion of how Borg's Twister references Lawlor's Whirlwind topper; contrast between Ritchey's expensive designs and Borg's cost-cut efficiency.

  • ?

    community_signal: Alan and Alex discuss cyclical nature of game appreciation: new players disliked by old curmudgeons, but new curmudgeons emerge who defend them. Community opinions shift generationally.

    high · Extended philosophical discussion about how podcast hosts will become the curmudgeons dismissing future games, and how current games they defend will be old games future players hate.

  • 3:57
    So that's Borgie in a nutshell right there. He's that is the man in a nutshell. You got to get a game out the door. Give it to Borgie. Like, get that shit out the door. If you want something finished, John Borg's your man. Okay, a lot of us associate John Borg, and we know his long history of designing games for Gary Stern's various companies, but I think a lot of people don't know that he started at Gottlieb Premier. Yeah, he got his first job, and he started as a mechanical engineer, which is actually kind of the pathway for many, many, many pinball game designers. They start as mechanical engineers in some facet and then they become game designers. That has happened so many times over the years. It even happened recently with Elliot Eisman who designed John Wick. Yeah, they seem to become good game designers too. Looking at Elliot. It's a physical game. So, you know, like. You seem to get it. It's very interesting. But the first game he worked on was Victory, which is a very cool Gottlieb game. An interesting game with like photorealistic like F1 or Indy cars that then have like airbrushed guns and spikes on them. Yeah. It's really bizarre. Like you're like. Super weird layout. Very cool game. Yeah. A lot of mechanical engineering going on on that one. And then he also worked on Diamond Lady, TX Sector, Robo War, Bad Girls, Big House, Hot Shots, Bone Busters, Lights, Camera, Action, as well as the street level game Silver Slugger, Vegas, Deadly Weapon, and Title Fight. All as a mechanical engineer. Yeah, so he quickly was exposed to a lot of projects because Gottlieb was absolutely pumping games out in this period with not a lot of employees. Yes, he had to work on everything, everything's all hands on deck, and he also famously designed the System 3 pointy boy flippers that everyone fucking hates. This is still the funniest bit of John Borg lore is that right before he left Gottlieb, he was tasked with the interesting, you know, project of redesigning their flippers. And most people at this point had already moved on to a single piece molded plastic flipper that was press fit onto a metal bat. That's what basically everybody did, their contemporaries were doing, and everybody still does today. And Data East copied William's shape. Like, not only the same size, but the exact same shape. They're interchangeable parts. Yeah, but Gottlieb, who, they didn't have the budget to redo shit over there, but they decided they need to redo their bats because their old bats were, like, big, soft-looking, classic, chunky ones. A lot of people, old people in the hobby would call them Fatboy Flippers. Yeah, the Fatboys just do look dated, and I don't think they really work with the modern game design. And so he designed these new flippers that are like a three-piece construction. They're the most over-engineered modern era flippers for sure. Nothing else is like this, where it's like screwed the top plastic bit screws onto a base plate that is attached to the shaft. And you know what is that John Bork says that that wasn't part of the original design with the screw top, but because that was the old EM way, Someone at Gottlieb was concerned that they thought that the new flippers and the new system, the new extra power that they added to the flippers in the System 3 era, right, going up to 48 volts, that it wasn't going to appear premium. So they added screws. They added the screw down mech to look like the old one and to make it seem more premium. It has the astonishing opposite effect. It makes these games look so cheap compared to everything else. And that might just be a result of like looking back at them and now they're different and antiquated compared to everything else because the other again, their competition became the standard moving forward. It's funny how if you put out the best games, you become the standard. You know what I mean? It's true. Like it's funny how like if Gottlieb had got Brooks and Dune out and stayed in business and then like moving forward, everyone adopted these flipper bats. We'd probably be like, man, those piece of shit molded plastic Williams ones. As we know, unfortunately, they closed before their magnum opus, Brooks and Dunn, was able to get finished. And so Gottlieb folded in the late 90s, and these flippers died with them, fortunately.
    8:21
    But I do like to think of this as, like, John Borg's, like, final joke at Gottlieb. Because I'm just thinking, from my professional perspective, if I was, like, leaving a company I disliked jumping ship to a competitor, You kind of, you know, you're just like leaving like a steaming turd on your way out the door with these flippers, man. He doesn't speak about his time at premiere negatively at all. It's too professional to do that. I just want to put that on the episode now. We're having a good time. We're having a pinball podcast here. I don't want anyone to get the wrong ideas. But yeah, it is. You did it in tension. It is funny to think that he was working as some sort of saboteur. You know, some double agent. This was his last thing he did there. Like, he worked on a bunch of cool games, and then they're like, can you design some flippers? And he's like, yeah, I'll design you some flippers. It wasn't the last thing he did, because a lot of these games have these flippers, you know, but yeah, it was one of the things he did, for sure. Okay, so then he moves on to Data East. He's moving on up in the world to the big licensed world of Data East pinball. Yeah, his first mechanical lead was on Hook. That's a Tim Seckle game, and we covered it. I actually did a Die on this Hill with our buddy AJ in Colorado. It's episode number 40, Die on this Hill, Hook. That was the first game he worked on when he moved over to Data East, again, as a mechanical engineer role. And his first design job was actually Star Wars, Data East Star Wars, which quickly became Data East's highest selling game of their entire history at 10,400 units. and John Borg tells a story about creating the first test unit of that game and not having the molds ready and cutting a wiffle ball in half to make R2-D2 and doing all kinds of cool shit. And they took take that game and put it on a test location, which was a rock and roll McDonald's in the Chicagoland area. Yeah, of course, it's a rock and roll. We all know what a rock and roll McDonald's is. Now, he said that this game in 1992 was earning $500 a week at 25 cents a game. That's 2,000 plays a week in 1992. 2,000 a week in 1992. Absolutely absurd. The reason I thought it was great that John gave this, but it's also when I talked to Roger Gersharp, or when we say it on the show, we talk to a lot of operators. We talk about operating pinball machines. We talk about the viability of the industry. I always laugh whenever it's like, doesn't Godzilla earn like crazy? I was like, nothing earns like games used to earn. Yeah. It's not even fucking close. Nothing's hitting $500 a week. That's nuts. And that's at $92 or $93 or whatever. That's at $0.25 a play. That game had to get played 2,000 times a week. You know how hard that is? Dude, get that many people cycling on a game? Absurd. Only at Rock and Roll McDonald's. Yeah, dude. I also just want to say that it really speaks volumes to Data East and the operation they were running over there that they got the Star Wars license, which I know it's a long time from these movies actually premiering, but it's still a big deal at this point. Like, they were still running the toys actively and everything, and they gave the license to a brand new designer. First game out of the gate. They could see it, dude. They saw the vision. They trusted the man. He knew Borgie had the juice, dude. It worked out, but I'm just saying that's an insane thing. Nobody else would do that. Yeah, it is wild. It's like, hey, man, like, here, this is going to be our biggest, like, we got our biggest license yet, and, like, there's, like, the new dude that just made those horrible flippers for the competition, and we're going to just give it to him? Maybe that was the blood money, dude. That was like, hey, you get your giant job on Star Wars. Crash the Gautlieb ship, and we'll give you Star Wars. He's a made man. 10K units guaranteed. And it worked out. The game is still fun. Some say it's still the best Star Wars game made. Spoiler alert for later on in the episode. Some say. But his second design work credit was Jurassic Park. Jesus Christ, you gotta be kidding me with these licenses. So that game sold over 9,000 units. Ed Sabula and Joe Kamenkao also get design credits. And John sort of talks about he did some mechanics and he did help out and he's part of the team, but that's not his solo design work. So he considers his next game, his real sophomore is Tales from the Crypt because that's the game that he is the sole design credit for. He also worked in between on Last Action Hero and in his career retrospective at Pinball Expo, he said that basically Last Action Hero was the game that everyone worked on. So everyone got a credit, even Lyman Sheets, the programmer, got a design credit. But, you know, Borgi, Ed Sabula, Joe Kamikow, and Tim Suckle, basically all their designers all worked on parts of Last Action Hero. And he said, like, nobody really wanted full credit for it. So design by committee, I think, can really fall flat if people are too nice a lot of the time and no one wants to shoot somebody else's ideas down. And I think there's really something important to having a sole designer kind of like run the creative and have a clear vision for what they want the game to be. And that's generally speaking how you get the best games. But I will say sometimes like all hands on deck leads to good shit. Last Action Hero is a good Data East game. People really love this game. So it's well, I don't know how it was in the time, but it's well received now. I think it's sold pretty well. People still talk about this game as being like a really good Data East game. It also looks cool. Yeah, it's got Arnold. I mean, anything with Arnold is going to look cool, man. Again, Data East is just like watching Williams being like, okay, Terminator, okay, so it's an Arnold thing, right? Like Arnold works, we'll get an Arnold. We'll get ourselves an Arnold. Yeah, man, and it works. And it worked.
    14:21
    But then, yeah, he made Tales from the Crypt, and that's why he considers his second game a game I also think is pretty fun. I think this game is a lot of fun. It got really, really, really good voice acting from the actor that played the Crypt Keeper from the show. This was a hot fucking show on HBO at the time. Tales from the Crypt was on HBO? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, dude. And it was crazy because it was big budget horror vignettes and just, I mean, Tom Hanks is on it. Like, big names, like big actors, big directors would star in these episodes. Huh. And it was a huge show and again a very contemporary cool license. It's a fun game. And then he also did after that he did the first Guns N' Roses game and he tells a great story that I want you guys to go listen to but he even got to visit Slash's house where he was attacked by Slash's pet mountain lion Curtis.
    15:15
    Is a cougar named Curtis? Yeah. That's insane dude that the funniest word about that is the name. Dude Curtis is such a great name. This is such a good name for a wild animal you should not keep as a pet. He was saying like he was just chilling with Curtis and he was like petting him. And then Curtis did the cat thing where he got on his back and he exposed his belly and he went to go scratch his belly. And then Curtis just slapped his giant paw, knocked him to the ground, and then put his mouth on his throat, on John's throat. Curtis no Bad Curtis Bad Curtis yeah God he spraying him with a big water bottle Dude that insane That a good story Guns N Roses though is one of probably for a long time it was one of the most valuable Data East games People really like that game And it kind of it cool It interesting Very cool how the ramps are a G and an R Yeah That cool More games should have ramps that spell things Yeah Well pinball so much about spelling Pinball is very much like a fucking trick to get us to all learn spell things. We spell an Iron Man for fast scoring. That'll come up later.
    16:25
    It's all spelling from the top down. But after this, we have a change in the company structure. Data East wants to get out of the pinball business. Another Japanese video game developer steps in and becomes Sega. Gary Stern's still running it. Joe Kamikau is still there, securing licensing, designing some games. But the first Sega game that John Borg was the lead designer on was Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, which was based on a Kenneth Branagh movie featuring Robert De Niro as Frankenstein's monster. And it's super serious. It's not campy at all. And it's very weird. Very weird movie. The movie, really serious. The game, hard to take serious. Well, it has an awesome monster mech that throws balls with his arms. His little arms. And he flings them at you. And the arms are back. They're like bent back in a very unnatural way where it grabs the balls. It's so goofy. It's very, I like this game. It's fun. Yeah, it's a fun game. And it also features, I'm sorry, who does the Frankenstein song? Edgar Wintergroup. Yeah, man, which is, that's like the perfect way to be like, wait, what? Is this based off of the movie? They're like, yeah, but it has this sick song. It has this song that was definitely not the movie soundtrack. Definitely not. It's so good. That song just fucked it. This is my favorite. This is like my favorite shit that Gary Stern would do. I love how he would, he'll just take a song and license it for a game. Like how they do CNC Music Factory for Lethal Weapon. Yep, and then the Godzilla Blue Oyster Cult, and you're like, yeah. Frankenstein. Nobody was asking for, but I feel like he's sitting, I feel like Gary himself has to be sitting in the boardroom, and he's like, what do we got for music in this thing? And they're like, oh, we got this original score, or whatever. He's like, we're making a Frankenstein game? Have you ever heard this song, this Edgar Wintergroups? It's bitchin'. That's what I imagine, that's very much how I imagine the discussion going, and they're like, sure, man, we can try to license it. But another thing is, I don't know if anyone knows this, but Gary Stern, avid motorcyclist, I think most people know that, but also avid snowboarder. Really? Gary Stern loves to snowboard, or at least he used to. I don't know if he still does. At this point, he's pretty old. He's older now, but he was on the knees. So Gary Stern's a pretty cool guy. He is a pretty cool guy. I can see him like an Edderwein group, Frankenstein, quite a bit. I can imagine that being his cell phone ringtone. The other interesting part was that John Borg basically was working on a mech that they ended up outsourcing and changing quite a bit. But his first version of the Jurassic Park T-Rex eating the ball was going to do way more than just bend over and eat the ball. It was going to move its head. It was going to have like little arms and stuff. Nice. And it was going to do this. So he basically said that this Frankenstein was just a modified version of his original design. Wow. That's what he was doing for the dinosaur for Jurassic Park. Can you imagine the dinosaur with little arms throwing the balls? Throwing the balls? Dude. Oh my god, man. They would have sold 20,000 units. Yeah, dude. That would have been insane. Speaking of mechanical engineering, he continued his work, just doing strictly mechanical stuff, on a couple insane titles, Baywatch and Apollo 13. Yep. Baywatch, fucking phenomenal. It's really one of my favorite Sega games, and it's jam-packed with stuff. Yeah, it's one of everyone's favorite, and we actually, Roti has one of these in storage that we need to just dust off and bring in. Yeah, I'm sure it'll just be a quick dust off on that fucking thing. It's not gonna be. It's like an infamously annoying one to shop, and I think a lot of shit breaks on it, but it is a very cool game. And Apollo 13 is another, it's got a famous 13-ball multi-ball and a ridiculous hyped rocket start to it. It's got a moon with a magnet. It's got a lot of cool shit. The start to that multiball is absolutely insane. So he helped make all that shit work. And that game fucking rules. Yeah, that stuff actually does work. Yeah. Which is crazy. But then he went back to design, and he designed Twister, Lost World Jurassic Park, and Lost in Space. Ooh. He also designed the first Stern game. You're just glossing over Lost in Space. Only Pinball machine with Joey from Friends in it, I'm pretty sure. I think so. Until we get a Friends machine, that's the only one, I can't remember that dude's actual name. He's in Ed, the movie. The Ed, and he's in Lost in Space. And that's it. Oh, Matt LeBlanc. Yeah, this is the only Matt LeBlanc game we have, so we should probably give it a little more time. That game's actually pretty fun. Lost World has another kind of insane, very Borg-y feeling mech. Now that I'm realizing kind of like his centerpiece moving ball lock mech that he likes to do in Lost World has a really the little like dinosaur trapper from the movie. It's interesting because I feel like I was playing that. I can't remember if I was playing with you and someone was like, is this thing even in the movie? And as a kid, I was obsessed with Lost World and I had an action figure like set with the snagger thing. So I'm like, yeah, I like remember that. It's barely in the movie, though. It was bigger in the script, but in the final cut of the movie, it's very short. That makes sense, because it's like, yeah, it's really not a prominent thing. I've seen the movie maybe once as an adult, and it's not a big deal, but I just remember because of the toy so vividly, and you're like, oh, but it's in the game. I remember this. This is some good Alan lore. If you don't know, I was born and raised in San Diego, California. The second half of Lost World, when they get off the island, the T-Rex is rampaging around. They're in San Diego. They're rampaging around San Diego. Interesting. I didn't remember that. It's a big deal. Like Anchorman and Lost World really like our claims to fame, you know, so. That's it. Nothing else. You don't got no baseball teams we're talking about.
    22:27
    And then Twister, you know, Twister's kind of fun. It has a knockoff of the best topper of all time. Yep. The whirlwind topper, a classic kind of Pat Lawler game, which, you know, we'll get to later on. But a lot of influences from Pat Lawlor particularly show up in John Borg's design career. Yep. But then he also designed the first Stern game because, again, this company switched again from Sega. Yeah, once Sega decided they wanted to get out of the coin-op game in America and they're selling off their American coin-op assets, and Gary was able to raise the funds and put his dad's name for him, not his own name. Yeah. He claims the company is not named after him. It's named after his dad. And he was able to put his name back on the company. And yeah, first production game. Harley Davidson. This is a not a well-loved game. Beloved is what I was going to say. This is not a beloved game. Cool Harley Davidson that kind of races up a little bit. Yeah, he like revs up, he opens up, he's a little scoop. Yeah, I'm surprised everyone hates this game. I think it's kind of fun, but I've not played it very much. I do think Harley's funny because it must have been more successful than they thought because they ran it. Like three different times with different art packages and stuff. There's like kind of like there's like the bad boy back glass and then there's like the nerd back glass where they have like big bright helmets on.
    23:48
    It's kind of like funny if you see the different variations, you're like, what's this one? And you're like, it's all the same game. They only made one Harley, but they made a bunch of different art packages. Well, and then he also did some mechanical engineering work and finish up design work on games like Sharky Shootout and High Roller Casino. You know, both of which have been Die on this Hill episodes. Yeah. Back into the archives and listen to those. John Norris kind of project. John Norris and John Borg. A lot of Johns, man. A lot of Johns. And then he made Austin Powers. This is officially credited. He's officially credited for mechanics and concept. And actually, the credited designer for this game is longtime Data East Sega Stern programmer Lonnie Ropp. He's the game designer. Huh. For Austin Powers, which I thought was interesting as I was looking at this. You're like, Lonnie, what were you doing, man? I mean, clearly John was there and Lonnie was a programmer, but they both get concept. But it seems like Lonnie had more to do with Austin than he typically does as the lead programmer. Yeah, it's always interesting. I never know who, you know, because we're always like basing this stuff off of like IPDB or the Pinside credits, and I don't know where that stuff. It's usually whenever they talk at a show. Yeah, someone goes and fills it out. But that is interesting. You're like, why would Lonnie Rupp get design credit? He must have been involved with it. And it's an easy one to, I don't care for that game. So, yeah, it wasn't our John Borg. Well, John also got laid off for the first time at Stern. He told me it actually happened twice, which I wasn't aware of. And seven years go by, and then he is actually rehired. And his first game back was Indiana Jones. Stern Indy. Stindy. Stindy as the kids call it. That game's pretty fun. Okay, so this is another game where it's like, this game's divisive. Some people really hate this game. It's getting into an interesting era of single ramp John Borg games. Because this is cost cut era. Yeah. This is cost cut Stern era where they're having to save money, design games on it. This is why they bring Borgie back. You know, this is. Yeah, they need some of those no nonsense. They're done fucking around with Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawler. They're making goddamn games that cost probably more to make than to sell. Like NASCAR has so much goddamn shit in it. And they're like, we need someone that just gets to the point. Yep. John Borg's here. Mr. Borg back. Yeah. Indiana Jones has a great Ark of the Covenant eight ball multiball start. Yeah. Fantastic. Like insane start. Overwhelming. The first time you see that multiball start, you're like, what is going on? This is badass. It's cool. It's just like, hey, what if we dumped a whole bunch of balls all at once? And it does it, and it's great. Funny enough, this is one of those games that when I first started playing pinball, this game was new, so I played it a lot around town. It was one of the first games, like a lot of these board games that we're going to talk about coming right up right after this, where I remember being on location playing these games, having a good time, and being told by old curmudgeons that they're not any good, and that I should be playing the Williams games instead. See, this is you now with modern games. Yeah, it's the circle of life. Yeah, you now are the curmudgeon. Well, and everyone listening, you will be that curmudgeon. Eventually, you will be like, no, these new games are shit. 20 years from now, you will have a Discord in your own pinball podcast, and you'll be saying things. And then people are like, no, man, Keith Elwin's the greatest of all time. These are the best games ever made. And then newbies will be like, those games suck. Keith Elwin is a hack. They're going to say these things to you. And what's funny is times change, man. People's change change. Like, but you're going to stay. You're going to like the stuff that got you into it always. And you'll probably broaden your horizons. But what I think is funny is I remember these games were kind of hated at the time, but I had a good time. And it started with Indiana Jones. I'm a big Indiana Jones fan in general, just of the theme of the movies. Wow. I didn't know that. Just like the treasure hunting. What about what appeals Harrison Ford's just a bad motherfucker? He's like just beating Nazis ass like I just love that shit. It's pretty cool. What about the part where they like fly out of the plane in the boat?
    28:05
    Yeah, in the inflatable correct. Yeah, dude, it's good shit. The movies are a good time. Steven Spielberg. The movies are. Steven Spielberg kind of knows what he's doing. Steven Spielberg doesn't fuck around. You know, he's John Borg. Some would say he's the John Borg of movies. That's what I would wait to do. And then from here, he kind of has like a string of these like kind of cost cut, like crank them out, keep starting business games, right? And he's the only designer left at this time. The other contracts aren't renewed. He's the only one standing there working as a design team. So he makes these games. He makes Big Buck Hunter, Iron Man and Avatar back to back to back all in 2010 as the only designer. Wait, Big Buck Hunter, Iron Man and Avatar? Yeah, right in a row. Dude, just three instant classics. Bangers. Bangers, I'd describe them. Really, though, Iron Man, widely loved. Big Buck Hunter, not so much, although in some circles we do seem to, we kind of like it. I like it a lot. I think it's fun. It's actually Big Buck Hunter. It's kind of fucking hard. It's kind of great. Like it is, yeah. It's kind of fun. When it's all working right, it has like this little flipper diverter working and the buck's actually moving around and shit. Yeah, and registers hits. Yeah, it's pretty fun. And then Avatar, I think, is a game that for a long time people just kind of like shit on Avatar. The opinions kind of changed on it, I feel like, since I've been in the hobby. But that game is actually like legitimately for one of his, it's my, probably my favorite single ramp board game. It's a cool one. It's got like a cool kind of hard shot back into the, you know, the little falling fucking max suit guy. Max suit guy. Yeah. It's got cool rules on it. I actually like Avatar quite a bit, but as you know, I'm a big fan of the Avatar movie franchise. Well, specifically the sequel, The Way of Water. I like water.
    29:57
    As the water boy. Everybody, that's one thing. If you know anything about me, you know how much I love the Avatar movies.
    30:04
    But then he made Tron, X-Men, Metallica, Walking Dead, and Kiss from 2011 to 2015. This whole era, you know, from 2010 to 2015, I think is like kind of Borgi's peak. Yeah, dude, it's hard to argue against. I'm like, really, if you don't like how any of those games are, I'm like, okay, I guess we have like a fundamental different taste in pinball. Because I'm like, those are like Tron's fucking good. X-Men's pretty fucking good. Yeah, it's pretty fun. Metallica kind of changed people's like opinion. Like that was like a big turning point for the pin side haters. Like all those guys you were saying that were like, no man, like when you were liking Iron Man, and they're like, nah, this game's shit compared to a Bally Williams. Metallica started getting the old guys on Pinside to be like, oh, these games are good now. And part of that was that it had a unique art package that looked a lot different than like the Photoshop bullshit they were pulling before that. But a lot of that is the fucking, it's just up. And it was loaded. It is a fucking loaded game with cool little mechs and cool shit going on, especially the premium. Has a lot of stuff going on on the premium. It's got cool rules. They're still really not intuitive. No, but it's a Lyman Sheets game. It's a Lyman Sheets game. So they're cool and balanced. They're fun to play. Not intuitive. I will just die on that because people always are like, what? Like this game. And you're like, how the fuck are you supposed to know that you shoot a shot once and then you're supposed to shoot the other three shots? And then you've got to shoot the original shot again. I'm like, what? How is that communicated in any way? Yeah it not well communicated Once you get it it simple It just it kind of like Venom you know where I like the concept simple it just not communicated well in the game which is understandable Anyway that a good game And then Walking Dead, fucking great game. Yeah, hard as shit. That's a good one, though. Brutal game. Yeah, and then Kiss, you know, and this is all his DMD kind of peak era, and then we move into the Spike LCD era, the modern era of Stern Pinball, the modern era of Pinball in general. He kicks it off with Aerosmith, then he makes Guardians, Monsters. Aerosmith, the first LCD cornerstone game. Batman 66, right, was the first Spike 2 LCD game. Aerosmith was his first cornerstone. They perfectly utilized this new technology by securing some kind of gently gyrating 2D animated Steven Tyler assets to just kind of put up there like a fucking screensaver. However, it is hilariously bad animations that really make you wonder what the fuck they were thinking. And also it's Aerosmith, which like if you don't like, you know, like. The problem with band themes in general is if you don't like the bands. This has probably, you know, gone after an underage girl or two in his day. Steven Tyler definitely did. So that's problematic. The music you've maybe heard a little bit much for your taste. So that's annoying. But the game itself, Aerosmith is fucking fun. Aerosmith, this is a game that Alex and I will die on the hill on. It's like, this game is fun. I love games where you can keep locking balls forever. Yeah. You can fuck yourself so bad by being like, I need six ball multi-ball. I cannot stop at five ball multi-ball. And then you drain ball three and you're like, oh, I'm a fucking idiot, aren't I? It's so fun. It throws the ball into the jack-in-the-box. That's cool. It's very cool. It is actually legitimately Aerosmith, criminally underrated game in my opinion. And then, you know, we got Guardians, which is one of my favorite Spike 2 games that have ever been made. Horrible audio on it again. Like, a lot of his games kind of get, like, haunted by something, and that's why I keep bringing it up. Because I'm like, that's not, it's not John Borg's fault that they have, like, really bad knockoff voice actors on Guardians. And that's what people complain about the game. It also shipped with very bare bones code that people were upset about. Well, that's. Got finished much later. But Guardians, good fucking game. Monsters, another criminally underrated game, dude. People love telling you about how there's not enough to do in Monsters, and then they go up there and they do one quarter of the shit in the game. And you're like, tell me again how there's not enough to do? One, you're not getting Monsters Madness every game. And two, there's actually, you have to do it twice. There's a second stage of Monsters Madness. So until you can do that shit, I hear that from people all the time when we had our Monsters Premium on the floor for a long time. One, casuals really like it because it's got that gimmick of the lower playfield, which casuals love. There's nothing that casual players love more than a little tiny pinball. They think it's so cute. They love it in Shrek and Family Guy. They love that shit.
    34:43
    They love that shit. They eat that shit up. But it's a surprisingly kind of sneaky, hard game. It is. It's not that easy. It's not that easy of a shooter, and it's kind of like mean reject. It's a nice, it fits in both. It's not like you clunk constant. It's like if you fuck up your shots, you get punished on it, and you do fuck up your shots on that game. Like it's not, it is kind of hard. I always tell people when they were like, I hate this game, and I go, until you go break a hundred mil on it, you don't even get to have a fucking opinion. Because you haven't played the game. So you can shut up and go over, because a hundred million, not a huge game on that, but also surprisingly hard to do sometimes. Yeah, if you're having a hard time with it, you're going to have a hard time with 100 mil. It also features my favorite of the little extra challenge mini game modes. Yeah, the couch potato. The couch potato challenge. So if anyone's unaware, a lot of these Spike 2 games, you can hold in the flippers if they're on free play or whatever. You hold in the flippers and you can cycle over to alternate game modes. You can do impossible mode, co-op, or whatever. And then they have challenge modes. And a lot of the challenge modes are just the wizard mode. You just skip to the wizard mode and it'll be like speed running the wizard mode. But Monsters has a unique challenge mode, the couch potato challenge, where you just constantly have to like alternate between hitting standups and then hitting ramps. Yep. And it's so, it's a very addicting and fun little mini game. Yeah. And it's fucking good. And it's hard. Yeah. It's fun. Fun. Yeah, it's very fun. It smells couch potato challenge at you. It's good, man. And from there, he's got Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Rush and Metallica Remastered and of course the brand new Stern game at the time of this recording and release which is a return to Star Wars and they're calling it Fate of the Empire. Fote, yeah. Fote as you'll see. Yeah, Fote. Yeah, I mean he's still designing games, he's still working at Stern to this day. People are still begging for remakes of his games. Everyone would love to see a remaster after they opened the floodgates with the Metallica Remastered and everyone immediately was like, We need Tron remastered. We need fucking Walking Dead remastered. And first of all, you don't. You can go buy those games, although they're both fairly valuable games for the era and everything. So I would not mind seeing a remaster, but for the record, Spike 2 doesn't necessarily make the games. Or, you know, having Insider Connect doesn't really make the games better. You can just go play the old games. But people really are clamoring for remasters of these games because they're fucking good, man. Yeah, they are good games. and you know I just want to spend the last bit of this episode sort of discussing John Borg as a designer and I wrote down a lot of the hallmarks that I see in his games and then I want to kind of go through these bullet points and just discuss them. The first thing that people are going to say particularly about his modern era is that John Borg does this two ramp center bash fan layout. Borgi's haters seem to bring this up because apparently Guardians, Metallica, and Munsters are frequently cited as him recycling the exact same layout. I think you could also possibly include Walking Dead and Iron Man in this group. Walking Dead's a hard sell. Iron Man, you can kind of see is the start of this, although it's very different because it has the dynamic bash toy. I would say the Guardians, Metallica, Munsters is the, yeah, I guess Metallica would be what launched that. But, and, yeah, I guess. It's like, yeah, it's really, really easy to be like, well, boy, they sure got a ramp on the left and a ramp on the right and a bash toy in the middle. And you're like, yeah, but they play totally different. It's like when we got into the fan layout, when we did the fan layout episode, and you're like, yeah, man, I, like, it's real clever to fucking point out that a game's a fan. You're like, that makes people online feel really smart to identify something that's immediately obvious to anyone that's been in the hobby for five years. Yeah. You know, five days or whatever. You're like, yes, Guardians of Metallica at a quick glance look like they have some shots in the same place. They play very, very different for a variety of reasons. Yeah. But and they're and they're both fun. Yeah. They're both. You know, I think I think all these they appeal to different people. The rule sets are totally different. There's a place for both of them. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I agree. You know, like when somebody makes something and people like it, I don't blame a designer ever for trying to give Somebody else a similar thing. Pinball, at the end of the day, if we want to talk about having variety in pinball machines, we can go fucking further back when they actually used to change real shit. Yeah, like lowers. Like Alex and I talk about on the show all the time. It's like classic games used to change the size of the flippers and where they were placed and they'd stack them on top of each other. You could scissor between them. You put a pop bumper below the flipper. They did all sorts of crazy shit that they will not ever do again. And, you know, so it's like if you start talking about these games, you go, yeah, but that's what you guys want. I know. Like, you don't want them to change any of that shit. When Jack Danger does X-Men, everyone's like, boo-hoo, wah-wah, I don't like this. Like, it's too different. Like, that's the problem is, like, you guys want the same type of shit that you expect a pinball machine to have. It's either the game's either good or it's not good, you know? I think people love saying that they want things different, but they just want it to look different. They want it to play the same. And these board games look the same, but they play different, and that breaks people's, like, people can't handle that. Yeah. And I don't know, man. They're very different to me. If you put a Metallica on the floor and you put a Monsters on the floor, I'll walk up to them at different points. You know, it's not like, oh, I already played that game today. You're like, no, it's a different game. I think there was a point not that long ago where we had Metallica remastered, Monsters Premium, and we had Guardians on the floor at the same time. Yeah, you did. I'll have all three of them. And we had Tron, and we had Iron Man. So we had a crazy heavy Borg lineup. You like Borg games, so it checks out.
    40:41
    The other thing I notice a lot is double inlanes on one side, which is something Pat Lawler was most known for, even if I think Harry Williams really started that trend on his solid state games like Wildfire, Galaxy, and Flight 2K. Yep. Pat removed the little rubber donuts and made the center divider between the two inlanes a metal staple, And Borg has since used on so many games that when a ball actually hits the metal divider, bounces into the outlane, players refer to this as getting Borg. Yep. No one says I got padded.
    41:16
    I'm getting padded down right now. But Pat Lawler was very miffed about this in his old TopCast interview where he describes how some designers try and steal his layout bottom geometry, but they don't quite get it right. He doesn't mention Borg by name. Doesn't he specifically, he's like the often imitated but never replicated or whatever. He doesn't mention Borg by name, but it's very obvious when you look at a lot of Borg's games, this is who Pat was sneak dissing. This was sneak dissing right here. Also, like, dude, it's pinball. Like, okay, Pat, then fucking give the multiball back to Steve Ritchie. Like, you know what I mean? Everybody copies everything from everybody. He took a lot from Harry Williams himself. Exactly. And so you're like, I don't think you can hold that against Borg. And Borg's outlanes for some reason seem meaner. I'd have to go look at the geometry and see if the inner staple is higher or equal with the outer level or something. There's something about Borg's outlanes. Maybe it's just because they're on modern sterns that play way faster. It could just be where the ball paths enter that area or at a different trajectory. I get so much more frustrated from his double inlens fucking me than I ever. Like, Pats, when it happens, it feels like, okay, that's like a fair thing. And on Borgs, you're like, goddammit. I think you're proving Pat's point, which is like, nobody else does it like me. Yeah, no one, well, it's true. But like, they feel unique. So another Borgie mainstay is scoops. Oh. This man loves the scoop almost as much as Pat Lawler did. And just like Pat, he would often place multiple scoops on the same playfield. He would often place them on the same places that Pat placed them. Exactly. So like like maybe a shot through the pops, perhaps with scoops at the entrance. Yeah. So you do see a lot of that scoop there. Pat is a legendary pinball designer. He was very successful. If you're not stealing from Pat Lawlor, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. Do you not want to sell games, especially when you look at it like coming into this and you're like Borg was like a brand new designer that kind of just got like launched to this era with the biggest licenses imaginable and everything. So you're like, yeah, he's kind of like playing it safe with some of his early stuff for sure. It's amazing because I look through all of Borky's games. It's really hard to find games without scoops. There's like three or four of them. To be fair, though, it's hard to find it. Like most games have scoops. A lot of them do, but you'd be surprised at how many of them don't. That's true. Trying to think now. He loves magnets in general on his games, like lots of magnets, like lots of magnet features, catching the ball, randomizing the ball. Yep. Again. Pat Atluance. Pat did it in Adam's Family, which is kind of the first time it's really used in the modern era, although Harry Williams did it way back in the 30s or whatever. So, you know, like everything, but also some cool Borg mechs that I think make it on multiple games are the kickback shot on Iron Man and Guardians. Yep. Where you shoot it and it just fires the ball right back at you. Gagoff, kickback, what I think Steve was the first to do that right on F-14, the first to put a kickback aiming directly back at the player. It's so sick. It's so good. I love that feeling and I love that feature. Yep, and I love it's used very well in Iron Man and Guardians. There's also the kind of fork lock captive ball that he used on X-Men, Avatar, and then Jack Danger used on Foo Fighters. Yep. So you can, you know, you throw a ball in there, the forks come up, and then it acts as like a captive ball so you can bash the ball around. Yep, there's kind of a variation of that on Dune now too. Yep, exactly. And then the spinning disc that has a magnet in the center that can catch hold and fling balls around. He uses this on Twister, Lost in Space, and then Stern's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Killer way to start a multiball. It's really cool in Turtles, I gotta say. The way it feeds them off that upper flipper, it's really cute. So how it like locks them all on there and then starts spinning them around. It's just it's fun. It does lose a little bit of its effect on a modern game where you have like a ball save and everything, you know? Yeah, totally. It would be cooler if it was like, you got to catch these. Yeah. But I mean, that would be insane. Can't really do that now. Especially on how hard TMNT is considered by folks. Already considered. Yeah, exactly. But he also loves to have ramps travel behind the back wall of the cabinet. He does this in his games Iron Man, Rush, Walking Dead, Guardians, Monsters, the new Star Wars, Fate of the Empire, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Kiss. They all have at least one ramp, if not both, that go through the back box and come back around. Which I love. I love that shit. I don't know why. It's a really simple thing, and I'm always just happy when ramps wrap back around there. It's cool. It always just feels cool. It makes the ball feel like it's moving faster than it is or something. There's something about it that I'm like, oh, that's cool. I guess because the momentum is changing because when the ball comes back at you, it's flying back. I just like that feeling. You also put in here that he loves a center ramp as evidenced in both of his Star Wars games and in games like Aerosmith Kiss and Rush, which is interesting. I would never have thought of him as a center ramp guy. This really shows the range of this man, how people really pigeonhole him into this ramp ramp bash toy, and you're like, what about the center ramp stuff? Yeah, what about his whole center ramp career? Yeah, you're forgetting his center ramp phase. I think that is one thing that people just underestimate how many fucking games John Borg has made. Yeah. So, of course, there's going to be – it's the same thing because Richie gets the same thing where people love being like, well, this design is the same as that design. And it's like, dude, the guy's made so many goddamn games. Of course, shit starts feeling this – like, there's going to be similarities. That's their design hallmarks. That's why I wanted to talk about them. And these are what make these games feel like when someone's like that's a board game. These are some of the things that make a board game a board game. Even if we're talking about things that like Pat Lawler used to do, they feel different when Borgie does them. Yeah. His games don't feel like Pat Lawler games. No they feel like mean dude I mean Pat and Pat Lawler games are mean but like Borg games like like punish you Yeah I would say Pat games are harder shots in friendlier recovery in Borg games are generally speaking friendlier shots and harder recovery Yeah, which is leans more towards my taste. It's more the Steve Ritchie side. It's like it's kind of it's Pat Lawler inspired design with Steve Ritchie inspired feeling. He's definitely the king of the band pins. You can listen to episode 68 to hear more about band pins. He loves fucking, he just loves classic rock stuff, right? And he loves to sing karaoke.
    48:01
    Dude, he'll sing karaoke and ride his BMX bike, take his boat out on the lake. Borg likes to have fucking fun. And he makes fun games too. I think there's something to be said about his personality bleeding into, in the same way that Steve Ritchie's personality bleeds into, to the games he makes. I think a lot of designers' personality bleeds into the game. Or at least that's how it's sold to us. Because it's kind of how it's like, yeah, Pat Lawlor gives off fun uncle energy and so do his games, you know? Yeah. And he's friendly. He's like an old man that would be running a toy shop. And Steve Ritchie's like an old man that would be fucking like, I don't know, selling you cigarettes. Yeah. And both these guys weren't old their whole lives. They had that same energy. Yeah, it's like, you want to go ride dirt bikes? Sme is very much a Willy Wonka type, and Steve's very much the no-fear dirt bike guy. And it's like, yeah, you see that. And Borg is like, yeah, he's into a wide variety of shit, I would say. But it's all just kind of like cool, fun stuff. And he's the guy that you put on a project if you have a short deadline, and he will get it into production. I think he learned this all the way back at the beginning from Ray Tanzer, John Norris, and John Trudeau, when he started at Gottlieb as an engineer and those guys were just fucking cranking out games. Yeah, the Gottlieb team knew how to get games out without a ton of resources and Jon seems to have picked that up. And it's even that way to this day, you know, you have a short deadline, they slot Borgian. Yeah, he doesn't seem to have an ego on him at all. He'll just, he like will work and get his shit done. And he's not a diva at all. Doesn't seem like it. Yeah, I guess maybe somebody else could. Like, it's not like I've worked with the guy personally, but just how he comes across is very, very down to earth. And it's just like, yeah, this is a job. I'm going to get this stuff done. And he executes well. And, you know, like Alex hinted a couple of times, his games are typically perceived as hard or harder than the other contemporary designers are whenever he's designing games. The average board game is sort of viewed by the general public as harder than such and such. The Keith Elwin game or the Brian Eddy game or whatever. I would say, I don't know if his early games necessarily are, but post his return and whatever the economic downfall of 2007 or 2008 and he came back to Stern. Post that era, his games are definitely harder than the contemporaries. Yes. Which makes them good location games. A lot of his games are like operator sweethearts. Like they're games that like actually make money. Well, I think that they're really good for especially like competitive play. Yeah. You know, because it keeps the ball times out, keeps the shit moving along. They're harder to control, you know, because missed shots are punishing. It's also why I have a soft spot for these games. I want a game to be hard. And Borgi feels like he's of the modern designers. He's the one that's going to give me a hard game. Yeah, the guy's working still. It feels like he's one of the few that's not afraid to make a game. Because we're at the point in pinball where it's like you get a lot of vocal feedback that you wouldn't have gotten in the 90s or anything now. It's like every time a game comes out, there's a wave of feedback. And the number one way to make people not like a game right off the bat is just to make something hard. So it's like if you're trying to please the crowds right away, placate the fucking masses, You just give them something easy. Yep. And easy games suck long term. Easy games you get bored of quick. Yep. Hard games entertain you longer. The depth of the rule set doesn't matter because you're still just knocking a ball around the same board at the end of the day. So if it's super fucking easy to do whatever you want on that board, it's going to get dry quicker. In my opinion. That's how both of us feel. And that's why we like looking forward to hard games. That's why we're always asking for more hard games. That's why we fucking love John Wick. We're excited for Elliot, you know, the little John Borg Jr. Yeah. The little mechanical engineer. He worked with John. And John, when I, you know, went to Expo and got to talk to Elliot, and I wanted to thank him personally. Again, this is Expo last year, not the one that just happened. You know, John Wick was coming out, and people were giving it a bunch of shit. And I wanted to seek out Elliot. I wanted to be like, hey, man, like, fuck that noise. This game rips. And there are people that like this because I know that in this day and age, every time you make a game that's hard, you're going to get heat for it. Especially right off the bat. And then people do, like right now, I would say the public opinion has turned around on John Wick quite a bit. It's not like every single person loves it, but it's certainly found its audience and I would, I definitely, at least in our circles, and granted we run in younger, more location-based circles or whatever, I'm not necessarily spending a ton of time on Pinside. But it's like if you go into the Pinball subreddit and you're like, what do you guys think of John Wick? You'll get a lot of positive feedback on there. When that game came out, people did not like it. People didn't like how it was shot. They're hung up on stupid little bullshit, like the guns or whatever. And it's like, yeah. So the easiest way to avoid all of that is to make an easy game. John Borg does not do that. John Borg seems to just do whatever the fuck he wants. And what he wants to do is make hard games. and I appreciate that as a player sometimes you know it's like I want a challenge you know and I want to be challenged and I want the ball to move. I like a game coming out and me like walking up to it and getting my ass kicked because you shouldn't be good at a game the first you know shouldn't be good at a game the first time. If you play a game for the first time and you're really good at it and I know a lot of people go to shows and the people like you know the vendors at shows like setting games up easy because they want people to feel good about the game that they're playing for the first time. If I go to a game and play it for the first time and I do great, all I know is I'm going to get bored of that game fucking quick. That's a bad sign if you're immediately good at a game. And it's rare that I walk up to a John Borg game and play it for the first time and I'm like, ooh, that's a little too easy. Got this shit all figured out. The Star Wars kicked my, like, new Fate of the Empire kicked my ass for the first, like, 20 games. Dude, it was so funny to watch you just struggle with that game. Not fine shots. And this is probably one of his, it's a pretty approachable, forgiving game because it's supposed to be, you know, Star Wars, supposed to be kind of like a neutral thing. But it's still pretty hard. Like, it's still harder than like Kong or any, you know, any Elwin or anything. It's interesting. So I want to talk about our favorite games at the end of this episode, our favorite John Borg games. You know, I'll start off with longtime listeners of the show or members of our Discord community already know this, But I think that Iron Man's a perfect game. I got to tell John that at multiple shows. I love this fucking game. It's one of my favorite games. And aside from a dog shit art package, this game is fast and furious, high risk, high reward, fun. And it just has the ultimate one more game quality to it because it's fucking hard because the ball times are short because you want to stack things on the same ball. It's just perfect. And the ramps are fucking so much fun to combo and start bogey chase. It's a left right ramp center bash toy thing. But because it's that dynamic raising bash toy, he can put it so mean and close to the numbers. And so it like really congests your multiballs and really leads to short multiball times, which is great. It's so good because there's three multiballs in it. Every game needs to work on, like, every designer needs to be like, how can I make multiballs shorter? Yes. That would be the one thing. I'm like, if I could just give one note, I'm like, please, less time in multiballs. Like, multiballs, if you have multiball the whole game, it doesn't feel special. And that's what, like, a lot of games can, it feels like you can milk multiballs on modern games. And you're like, this is a good way to handle that. Yeah. It's just a perfect game. I love that fucking game. It just, Iron Man to me is what pinball should be. Steve Ritchie famously has a quote that says, you know, pinball should feel like a fight. You know, and Iron Man will fight you and it will beat your ass. Like, it's not just going to fight you. It's going to beat your ass. And for a modern game, like Alex was saying, this is increasingly more and more hard to find. Yeah. In a game. Like, they don't. It's hard to find any DMD that's, like, as straightforward and mean as Iron Man, though. Even from, like, going back, like, 35 years. It's hard to find any that are, like, this is what you got to do. It's, like, none of the shots are that hard on, you know. On their own. It's just like when you start trying to bring it together, it's hard. Yeah, it makes you shoot dangerous shots. Yeah. And you're always on your toes. And from the first time I played that game when it was brand new and I was new to pinball, I love that game. And I still love that game. It's still my favorite Stern game of any era of that company. It's still my favorite Stern game. So, yeah, easy to see why. It's a good, good game. And then the other one I want to shout out is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. We talked about it earlier in the episode, but I just think this game is fun as hell. And the Edgar Winter Group's Frankenstein, song in the game, and Frankenstein's monster, he throws balls at you. It just makes me laugh, and it makes me smile every time I play it. I will always play it when I see one. When I go out to the next level, I play it every single time. It is fun, and it's genuinely funny. Yeah. And it's like, it's just a good, like, campy, I like the overall package. It's a fun game. And I would also say, you know, like, for Spike 2, probably Guardians. Yeah, Guardians is a good game. Guardians would probably be my Spike 2 Borgie, if I get one from each of his arrows there. I get a little annoyed on it, because I'm just constantly fucking running out of time when I'm trying to get my modes done. That's a struggle you have, you know, when you're a skill player like me. Not so much. Yeah, it's because I'm constantly getting balls, getting balls, getting balls, and the timer's still running. I'm like, come on, come on! But I really like Guardians. I just like how you're basically just playing through different modes, but the modes all do feel very, like, unique and different to me. Yeah. But they're also, like, all fairly straightforward. Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's still just shoot the arrows, but... Sometimes you shoot circles. Yeah, that's true. Sometimes it's a little stand-ups, you know. Sometimes the arrows are moving. Yeah. You know, I like that. I like that one a lot. I'd say my personal favorites, I really like Tron Legacy. Yeah. I just really like that layout, really like the combination of the rule set on it, and it's cool, cool theme, even though it's kind of an ugly execution of the theme. That's a cool one. It's the wrong era, you know, for stern art, you know. Yeah, it's hard to find a game. But of that era, I think it's a good-looking overall package because it's nice and blue. And then modern games, I really like Munsters. I kind of, like, talked about it, already explained why I liked it so much. But it's just like good straightforward rules. Just try to like burn through like the like five things you got to do and get into the like kind of insane wizard mode. I'm not sold. I'm not sure if I prefer the premium or the pro. I kind of like the pro without the playfield, which you can pick up really cheap, even though they're really rare because they just didn't sell. I mean, they didn't sell fucking mini monsters in general, I think. That game's actually legitimately rare. And I love the premium black and white art package. and I like the mini playfield during Monser Madness. It's just like chaos. Because you gotta flip both at the same time. Yeah, you're trying to hit down there too. But just overall, sometimes you just get a little too much Monser, you know, Grandpa's Lab or whatever. But you just try to avoid that shot if you're sick of going down there. You've already got it. So it is what it is. And then yeah, Iron Man's phenomenal. There's a lot, as we were going through this, I was like, I do really like Walking Dead. I do really like Metallica, especially the original Metallica. Let me fuck with Borg Heavy here, dude. Yeah. I'm like, I always want to play more of his games because I'm not good at a lot of them. That's what it is to me, is I can play a lot of these games like Iron Man or Tron or Aerosmith. Yeah. Or just get my ass whooped on one of his games and I go, damn, I want to play this again. That's what I think. That's what makes me like games. If I'm bad at them, but I still have to have some level of fun. You can't just have like the most mean game in the entire world and just be like, yeah, fuck this thing. I don't want to play it anymore. But it's like as long as you're having like some level of fun and you feel like you want to get better at it, that's what makes the game good. And that's one thing that Borg nails. It's like his games are addicting in that way. And so I don't know. I always want to play more of these, like looking at the list. I'm like, I just want to play more board games. And I want to give a shout out to, you know, one of our regulars in the Portland area, listener, supporter of the show. Ben, you know who you are. I know you're a Borg monster too. You love John Borg Games. So we wanted to do this episode for you. I love talking about John Borg Games. Another friend of mine, Jake Wilson, listener of the show. Good friend, good regular. Also John Borg man and our friend Mitch Mann Funkatron from the East Coast loves John Borg as well. So we out here. Good taste. We out here. John Borg's got the fans, man. When I went to the Texas Pinball Fest in 2018, what was funny is that his line for autographs was by far the longest. This was sort of before Keith had sort of established himself. He had just had the one game. Interesting. It's interesting to see how, like, you know, he had this peak of everyone liked him. And now some people are like, I don't like this about a board game. Shut up. Get better. Play better. That's almost always what it comes down to with board complaints. You're like, eh, maybe you should have to play better. Play better. So we want you, after listening to this episode, go out and find a John Board game to play. They're everywhere. He had a long career, he's made a lot of games, and he's still making games today. So use the BIM on Map, go to your local location, support your local operators, and play some John Board games. If you want to talk more about them, join us in our Discord. Discord and we would love to talk to you about your favorite John Borgames in that Discord. And until next time, good luck. Don't suck.
    62:56
    Gagin' on the show.