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Episode 63 - A Jurassic Reveal!

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 1m·analyzed·Jul 30, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Stern reveals Jurassic Park pinball; hosts discuss design, licensing strategy, and rising designer generation.

Summary

Special When Lit Podcast Episode 63 features the official reveal of Stern Pinball's Jurassic Park machine, designed by Keith Elwin. The hosts discuss initial impressions of the game's playfield layout, animations, and mechanical features, comparing it favorably to the classic Data East version. Key industry updates include American Pinball's Oktoberfest updates and facility expansion, Spooky Pinball's security measures and upcoming licensed games, and Multimorphic's new backbox display option. The episode explores broader questions about licensing strategy, asset limitations, and the sophomore efforts of designers Keith Elwin, Eric Minier, and Scott Denissy.

Key Claims

  • Jurassic Park does not include any movie clips or assets from the original films.

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discussing Jurassic Park reveal on stream; Ken states 'it doesn't have any of the movie clips or assets from the real movie.'

  • American Pinball is moving to a new 35,000 square foot facility with three full production lines.

    high confidence · Brian Cosner, American Pinball correspondent, reports facility expansion details.

  • American Pinball's third game will not be Punisher.

    high confidence · Brian Cosner states: 'I do have confirmation that it will not be Punisher.'

  • Spooky Pinball manufactures most components in-house to prevent leaks.

    high confidence · Charlie (Spooky Pinball representative) explains leak prevention strategy to podcast correspondent.

  • Scott Denissy's next game is a few months away and involves a horror-related license.

    medium confidence · Spooky correspondent reports 'Scott's game is maybe a few months away yet' with 'something to do with horror' as a hint.

  • Multimorphic has added a new backbox display as an optional add-on for the P3 platform.

    high confidence · Ryan Claytor reports on Rory Cernuta's work: 'This new back box display is an add-on option that can replace the existing static translight for both new and existing customers.'

  • Keith Elwin's Jurassic Park features a multifunctional T-Rex mechanical that grabs and flings the ball.

    high confidence · Bill Webb notes 'you've got the T-Rex that's able to grab the ball and fling it around and drop it on a ramp.'

  • Black Knight Sword of Rage received a code update to version 1.0 before Jurassic Park's official release.

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell reports in Stern update: 'Black Knight Sword of Rage gets a code update. Tim Sexton and the crew bring that game to version 1.0 before the official release of Jurassic Park.'

Notable Quotes

  • “You can't have a game from the 90s not outdo your newest game. And I think this game really does live up to the hype.”

    Bill Webb @ Jurassic Park discussion section — Directly addresses the core tension of competing against the legendary 1994 Data East Jurassic Park machine; validates Stern's modern design against classic precedent.

  • “it doesn't have any of the movie clips or assets from the real movie. But how it is, I mean, you're kind of immersed in the island experience. So I kind of like that perspective of how they did it.”

    Bill Webb @ Jurassic Park animations discussion — Key insight into design philosophy around asset limitations and how creative animation can substitute for licensed content.

  • “If anything they outsource are the sculpts from Matt and he has a wonderful system that doesn't let anything leak out. The main problem, of course, is the license holder.”

    Spooky Pinball correspondent (Charlie) @ Spooky Pinball update section — Reveals industry insight about leak prevention and identifies licensing companies as the primary source of uncontrolled information.

  • “could you imagine like a back to the future pinball machine? No. But instead of having the movies being featured, it's just a new adventure with Marty McFly going back to the future with animations and the original music.”

    Ken Cromwell @ Licensing philosophy discussion — Explores future pinball licensing strategy and the pivot toward thematic licensing without asset-heavy content.

  • “Dude, that's a solid-looking game... Scott's game is going to be real solid... Eric, he's just so driven that I don't, you know, I could just see the bar, him setting the bar higher on himself.”

    Bill Webb @ Sophomore designer discussion — Assesses three rising designer stars and their individual approaches to follow-up games.

  • “I think all three will be the winners in their own perspective categories... Scott's game, because it will be not a big run, I think it's going to be a big hit... for like a boutique company.”

    Bill Webb @ Designer analysis section — Differentiates success metrics by company size and manufacturing philosophy, showing nuanced market understanding.

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonEric MinierpersonScott DenissypersonRory CernutapersonBill WebbpersonKen CromwellpersonRyan ClaytorpersonStern PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern Pinball officially revealed Jurassic Park via Jack Danger deadflip stream; machine streaming and available for viewing.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Jurassic Park is revealed today. It was revealed by Stern Pinball on the Jack Danger deadflip stream.'

  • ?

    code_update: Black Knight Sword of Rage updated to version 1.0 before Jurassic Park official release.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Black Knight Sword of Rage gets a code update. Tim Sexton and the crew bring that game to version 1.0 before the official release of Jurassic Park.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's Jurassic Park deliberately excludes movie assets/clips, relying on original animations and thematic elements instead; signals potential shift in licensed game philosophy.

    high · Bill Webb: 'it doesn't have any of the movie clips or assets from the real movie... the way that they implemented everything... you're kind of immersed in the island experience.'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: American Pinball expanding to new 35,000 sq ft facility with three full production lines, expanded labs, and R&D.

    high · Brian Cosner: 'American Pinball is also working on moving into their new 35,000 square foot facility that will have three full production lines, bigger labs, and R&D facilities.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Multimorphic introduces optional backbox display add-on for P3 platform; replaces static translight; new screen real estate for graphics.

    high · Ryan Claytor: 'This new back box display is an add-on option that can replace the existing static translight for both new and existing customers of the P3.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.186

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? Welcome. It's episode number 63 of the special When Lit Pinball Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ken Cromwell. I'm Bill Webb. And we've got a lot to cover today. Let's get right into the pinball news. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.
0:36
Hey, this is Kaz, your special and lit American Pinball correspondent. Team over at American Pinball has been hard at work on the update for Oktoberfest that has just been released. They've been working with operators and homeowners to update the audio and visuals and are continuously working on adding new callouts, music, and animations. spoke with the team about how they listened to customer feedback and they promised to keep refining their games. So there's still additional updates coming soon. And Oktoberfest has been shipping all over the world and has surprisingly been selling well in Brazil. American Pinball is also working on moving into their new 35,000 square foot facility that will have three full production lines, bigger labs, and R&D facilities. But you've been on Facebook lately? American Pinball's Facebook page has posted a few hints on their new title so you definitely need to check out those for those clues on game number 3 I do have confirmation that it will not be Punisher so look for more info to be released soon for American Pinball, this is Brian Cosner This week's spooky update I was chatting with Charlie about leaks and how to contain them. I asked Charlie how do you manage to maintain confidentiality in these day and age. Lucky for Spooky pretty much everything is in-house so playfields, cabinets, back glasses, translights are all printed at the Spooky factory. All the metal work, CNC, construction is all done at Spooky so they don't have to outsource as much where leaking can be a problem. If anything they outsource are the sculpts from Matt and he has a wonderful system that doesn't let anything leak out. The main problem, of course, is the license holder. If you're going to do license games, it only takes one person from the licensing company to get excited and mention to a friend that they have a pinball machine coming out and next thing you know, it is everywhere. So far, so good with Spooky, though. Scott's game is maybe a few months away yet, but no one knows what it is. And as for the other two or three license games on the board, mum's the word. my hint would be something to do with horror. Anyway, catch you next week. Bye.

  • “So is it safe to say that these three guys, as it stands right now, are the future of pinball as we know it?”

    Ken Cromwell @ Future of pinball discussion — Frames Keith Elwin, Eric Minier, and Scott Denissy as the next generation of designers shaping pinball direction.

    • American Pinball
    company
    Multimorphiccompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Total Nuclear Annihilationgame
    Oktoberfestgame
    Black Knight Sword of Ragegame
    Data East Jurassic Parkgame
    Jack Dangerperson
    Tim Sextonperson
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Twippy Awardsevent
    Mattperson
  • ?

    design_innovation: Jurassic Park features advanced T-Rex mech that grabs, swallows, and flings ball; multifunctional rather than static bash toy.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'you've got the T-Rex that's able to grab the ball and fling it around and drop it on a ramp, and he picks it up with his mouth... it's a fully functioning, multifunctioning mech.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Rory Cernuta transitioning from main P3 game art work to focus on new backbox display graphics and programming.

    high · Ryan Claytor: 'Rory is stepping away from main game art for the P3's next title because... Now we have the back box display.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Jurassic Park features diverse animation scenes (car driving, computer hacking, missile launching, dinosaurs on playfield) showing significant animation variety and complexity.

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'You're looking at several different scenes where you're driving a car, where you're hacking a computer, where you're launching a missile... dinosaurs are walking around on the pinball play field.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Rising expectation that three sophomore designer efforts (Keith Elwin, Eric Minier, Scott Denissy) will shape pinball's future; community monitoring for 'sophomore slump' syndrome.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: 'Now we've got two more designers that are up next for their sophomore efforts... Do you think these guys have pressure on them... is the potential there for one of these guys to have a complete dud?'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Spooky Pinball uses in-house manufacturing to prevent leaks; identifies licensing companies as primary leak risk, not production partners.

    high · Spooky correspondent: 'If anything they outsource are the sculpts from Matt and he has a wonderful system that doesn't let anything leak out. The main problem, of course, is the license holder.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts explore potential industry shift: future licensed pinball games may not include asset-heavy movie content, instead focusing on thematic immersion and original creative directions.

    medium · Bill Webb and Ken Cromwell debate whether lack of movie assets is acceptable, with Ken questioning if this opens doors for previously unlicensable themes like Jaws.

  • ?

    venue_signal: Special When Lit considering acquiring Jurassic Park for studio/streaming when released; indicates strong confidence in game's appeal to casual venue players.

    medium · Ken Cromwell: 'Depending on how it shakes out, dude, I might try and actually attain the one that we get. So we'll be streaming that game when it's released.'

    • 2:59
    Hello again, Special When Listening. I'm Ryan Claytor, your Multimorphic Correspondent. Today I'm going to introduce you to another Multimorphic team member, and today it's going to be... Rory Cernuta. My role at Multimorphic is game art and whatever we do in the Unity game engine. So for those of you not familiar with Unity, essentially... If it relates to the screen, the interactive artwork on the play field, chances are I've either worked on all of it or helped on it. He began volunteering for Multimorphic in late 2012 after seeing a P3 prototype at that year's Pacific Pinball Expo. At the same time, he... Got to start working on Lexi with Dennis. Rory's work ultimately led to a greater demand of his time. He was like, we gotta have you work in more hours. and was offered a full-time position the following year in 2013. To date, he's produced art assets on Lexi Lightspeed, Cannon Lagoon, Hedza, Barnyard, and CCR, essentially all the P3 titles. Currently, Rory is stepping away from main game art for the P3's next title because... Now we have the back box display, so now we're able to feed graphics into that screen as well. This new back box display is an add-on option that can replace the existing static translight for both new and existing customers of the P3. Of course, with that new screen real estate, there's a new need to fill and program it. Regardless of whether P3 owners choose to opt into the new back box display or not, gameplay will not be affected. So that's what Rory's currently working on, and we look forward to seeing what else he has in store for us. I'm Ryan Claytor, your Multimorphic Correspondent. Stay innovative. And myself, Ken Cromwell, your Stern Correspondent for Special Unlit. Jurassic Park is revealed today. It was revealed by Stern Pinball on the Jack Danger deadflip stream. We'll talk more about that later. And Black Knight Sword of Rage gets a code update. Tim Sexton and the crew bring that game to version 1.0 before the official release of Jurassic Park. Very nice. Yeah, very nice. So we've got Jurassic Park. Now, finally, we've seen the pinball machine, and we've seen it streamed. It's actually streaming right now. Bill, let me ask you, Jurassic Park, first impressions? I like it a lot, man. I think they did a lot with the game. I like how the play field's kind of a throwback to the Data East version. Okay, how so? The island.
    5:19
    Yeah. It just feels very reminiscent of the original Jurassic Park that I've been working on lately and the dinosaur.
    5:28
    The dinosaur? The dinosaur in the Jurassic Park? Oh, man, long day. So, sorry, people. It's a good thing they put a dinosaur in there. I'll bump my quality into this. I'll give you a hard time. No, but the T-Rex in the back that swallows the ball, I really like that. Because I think if they would not have put that in, that would have been kind of a deal breaker. Okay. You can't have a game from the 90s not outdo your newest game. And I think this game really does live up to the hype. I really like it so far. I think that was a very important statement that you just made because my concern was, yeah, Stern competing against a game that's a couple decades old, they couldn't put forth their best effort and still have it shown up by a game that's a couple decades old. It just wouldn't have come across as evolution of pinball or progress being made. You don't want to be taking a step back. the elwynn layout that we're looking at right now looks like there's a lot of shots a lot to shoot for and it looks like it's i mean you hear the term a lot of fun but the game just looks like it's a lot of fun to shoot it does um it looks like it uh flows really well i really like the playfield artwork i mean that really draws me in and then honestly seeing it with the animations today i have not done a whole lot on pin side because i wanted my own impressions to be my impressions good for you do a whole lot of uh yeah um listening to other people's gripes i'm the same way i've stayed off pin side a lot lately and again because you don't want to be influenced without realizing you're being influenced by other opinions i don't want things to be brought to the forefront that i normally wouldn't notice or care about so i've been doing the exact same thing and you said that you like the playfield artwork so the artwork in general gets your approval i mean what about the cabinet artwork i don't all right so because i have the original sitting at my house right now the original jurassic park that i'm working on data yeah data east uh i the only thing i don't like about the artwork is i wish the sides were the original black sides with like an embossed t-rex on the side okay chrome or something okay um not that the artwork on the side is bad that's just my personal preference sure and i it wouldn't make sense for them to do that with this going on locations and stuff like that so and i could see them taking on the chin for doing something like that people be like oh they're cheapening out on the side artwork and blah blah blah blah but i mean if i got this game that would probably be some one of the mods that i would do is find a way to get some embossed t-rex logos and re-decal the cabinet to my so you would reskin it yeah if you if you were to to to purchase the machine okay now that's interesting i i also i associate with jurassic park with the typical blacks reds yellows you You know what I mean? That's kind of what I'm used to. So the approach to the artwork was something that's different. Now, we also are noticing that the – what about animations on this game? Now, we've been watching the stream for maybe 30 minutes, and we haven't been able to give it our full attention in regards to, like, listening to the audio and dissecting the code. But right now, we've just kind of been taking it in visually. What do you think about the animations? Because I think they're incredible. I'm going to stop you there. I mean, honestly, the way that they implemented everything, it doesn't have any of the movie clips or assets from the real movie.
    8:38
    But how it is, I mean, you're kind of immersed in the island experience. So I kind of like that perspective of how they did it.
    8:46
    Hats off. I mean, Chuck, I think Chuck and that whole team did a great job. I mean, watching the computer segments, then Mr. DNA and the ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Yeah. I mean, I think they did a really good job of incorporating all those assets that they could, you know, or things from the movies. Is it like, yeah, being creative with the limited amount of assets they had? Correct, correct. Right. And with what they did, I think they did a stellar job. And honestly, I think the biggest gripe that I have right now, and I realize you and I have not played it yet. We will be shortly, though. That's true. We have not played the game, so. um you know other than playability factor you know from just first glance in the limited streaming that we've watched i really like it i mean my biggest gripe would just be i would rather see you know my and and my personal vote might not be the popular one because people love the hand-drawn artwork and um the kitchen scene on the uh the premiums and whatnot i would just love to have one in black with a like an embossed logo and just what you're used to with jurassic park what you associate with Jurassic Park. A couple things I noticed on the game. One, it seems that Stern is really up to their game when it comes to the mechs in the game. So, I mean, you've got the T-Rex that's able to grab the ball and fling it around and drop it on a ramp, and he picks it up with his mouth. I mean, I think a few years ago, that T-Rex might have just been a bash toy. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's a fully functioning, multifunctioning mech, and I think that's so important to see something like that on these machines. The other thing I noticed with the animations is that there's such an amount of variety within the animations. You're not just looking at something that kind of is templated and then you're adding to that template. You're looking at several different scenes where you're driving a car, where you're hacking a computer, where you're launching a missile. The gates. There was even a cool animation where the dinosaurs are walking around on the pinball play field I thought was pretty interesting. So for a lot of people that say that the animations aren't important, I think the animations are going to be hugely important, And especially because we know that there are no movie assets or no movie clips that will be involved in this pinball machine. So you've got to kind of be creative on the fly with the animations. And from what my initial impressions are that the animations are absolutely interesting and captivating. And I like so far what I've seen. Oh, yeah. Now, let me ask you this. The limitations of what we're talking about of the assets for the original movie. OK, now, this is not taking you through the original movie. This is not walking you through a movie that you've seen. This is a brand new experience in the world of Jurassic Park. It's like its own chapter, so to speak. Do you think that that's going to matter to the public on their purchasing decision? And does that matter to you personally that the Jurassic Park pinball machine that is now available is Jurassic Park themed and it's not the story of an existing Jurassic Park? All right, so I was thinking about this when the game was rumored to come out. And the video quality that came out when this movie came out was not the greatest. Even if you have Jurassic Park on Blu-ray. The video quality was pretty good. At the time. At the time, it was phenomenal. It was the greatest thing. When you say video quality, are you talking about CGI, like graphics? Yeah. I think it's killer.
    12:06
    Okay, so you compare that to what's great. I think right now the T-Rex scene of it chasing the Jeep holds up on anything that I've seen currently. I mean, that's just me. I think it was so beyond. Yes, but video quality is not what it was today. So part of me was a little nervous on how they would actually incorporate some of that video quality into the new monitor. I don't think it would have looked as good as you would have thought, Ken. I don't know if I'm following you, though. Are you talking about HD graphics? The graphics? The actual movie. Okay. So if you were to take the movie clips from the movie and put them on the monitor, I don't think the resolution would have been great, and I think it could have looked kind of sketchy. Because I own Blu-ray Jurassic Park, and I don't think, I mean, especially the dinosaur scene, it looks really good. I don't think it's as crystal clear as some of the newer movies, and I was nervous that that might not actually look right. But the LCD is so small from a distance, I don't even know that you would need anything HD. I think something could be converted. I thought I was confusing that you were talking about, like, the ability to show special effects wouldn't hold up today, unless that's what you are also saying. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. You're talking about the video quality issues? From 94. Oh, okay. Yeah. It was just a different time. Now, at the time, it was, you know, top-notch, greatest thing we'd ever had. I don't know, man. You look at Wizard of Oz in remastered, it looks pretty incredible to me. And that movie's tons and tons of years. 70 or 80 years old now? Right, right. So honestly, I'm kind of relieved that they don't have a lot of those movie clips in there because I could see them kind of being diluted as far as their quality goes just because of the time that they were produced. Okay.
    13:48
    I'm really happy at the animations and how they've done that. Like that computer screen, the car driving, I actually really, really like that. But do you think that the fake animations would be better than the original produced movie? I kind of almost think it would be. Really?
    14:09
    Watch Jurassic Park and tell me if I'm wrong. On Blu-ray, I'll let you borrow it. No, I haven't. Maybe I have a crappy TV. That could be true, too. Yeah, I don't know. I'll definitely double-check. The T-Rex scene looks awesome in that movie, even by today's standards. Okay, that part I agree with. But the dinosaurs walking, it's not as clear as I would like it to be. Maybe you need a faster refresh rate on your TV. That could be, too. If it's getting a little skippy and stuttery. Not stuttery, just... Just not where you want it. Yeah. So I could see that kind of impacting the gameplay. And I wouldn't want to see that in there, in all honesty. Okay.
    14:47
    Personally, I would love to have seen all that in there, just because that movie was such a big deal for me, special effects-wise. Oh, dude, absolutely. Yeah, I would love to have seen it. The movie was The Matrix after that, in my eyes. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I mean, it was just such a great movie. That being said, you know, with what I'm seeing right now tonight, it absolutely looks like it's going to hold up and it's fun. But again, so, I mean, those people, for instance, when people were, you know, disappointed that there were a lack of assets in another pin recently, potentially, and that was Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, right? So there was a big discussion on that. So do you think that Stern or pinball companies are forced into going into a direction where they can acquire licenses for themes but they not able to fully acquire all of the assets So now, instead of getting a movie and its actors and voiceovers and its clips, you're now just playing a game in the spirit of the theme in which you've acquired. And for instance, would it now be safe for Stern to say, or any pinball company, say, you know what, now we're going to acquire Jaws because this Jurassic Park title is kind of testing the waters to see if we can launch a successful pin without any of the movie assets at all. so now you could take Jaws and you would get the shark and you would get the iconic theme music but you wouldn't get any of the actors, you wouldn't get any of the movie clips but then you could do like a shark attack themed game around Jaws well yeah, you being the ball, you're trying to get away from Jaws and I could see that kind of selling is that a direction that you want to see pinball going into because now you've got to ask yourself is it better to have no movie assets or is it better to have limited movie assets and I suppose you could take that on a theme by theme and a case by case basis but do you want to see something that's a watered-down version of a licensed theme, or do you want to see something that is a licensed theme in which you've got to get creative making your own new chapter within that theme? I think in this case with Jurassic Park it worked well. And you know what? I might be in a way different scenario than a lot of other people, literally just because the T-Rex on my game, I'm going to give you a little back story here, was not working. And, dude, I spent a couple hours fixing that thing. and having to restart the game to see if the Jaws would eat the ball. So if I literally hear that guy say, Welcome to Jurassic Park one more time, I'm going to say, Welcome to the Curb, because I am done hearing it, so I'm kind of refreshed. I might not have the best opinion on this, and I'm kind of skewed right now. I think with certain assets, I don't think it would be a good thing, though. Jaws, I would probably prefer to see the actual movie clips in there. I mean, that's some grainy stuff in it. You're back to the original movie footage quality a little bit. Because you don't have a control room, these gates, and all this other kind of stuff. Yeah, but let's back up.
    17:45
    I would have asked you this question two weeks ago if I said, hey, there's a Jurassic Park pin that's coming out. Would you rather see a whole new adventure taking place within Jurassic Park on a pinball machine, or would you rather see the original movie incorporated into the pinball machine? What do you think you would have said? before that me having this jurassic park i would have said i would love to see all the movie assets okay you know but i but now having gone through what i've gone through with the game that i've been working on i'm kind of glad some of that's not there and it's a different perspective you're i mean you're like the ball trying to get off the island in this game right i mean or just make it through um so i kind of like that you know in all honesty i kind of might be in on this game Oh, no, I understand. I just I'm wondering if it's if right now we're seeing a pivotal part in pinball licensing where now we are not going to expect really anything on a themed or licensed game, except the original concept or like a revision or a new experience within that theme. Like, could you imagine like a back to the future pinball machine? No. But instead of having the movies being featured, it's just a new adventure with Marty McFly going back to the future with animations and the original music. But it's all new concept. Like, no, it's just it's just the theme, but it's not licensing assets. I don't want to see them in 1925, you know, back to the future. No, I don't want to see that. So you would still I would see that. I think with some movies it works to the benefit.
    19:19
    But as far as a whole, yeah, no, I'd probably still rather see the movie clips. Because this could almost be Jurassic Park, could almost be its own original theme of a dinosaur theme. But because you do have the Jurassic Park branding and you do have that music, it ties, you know, it tugs on the heartstrings of those that really want another Jurassic Park pin. And I just, again, I just think it's an interesting conversation to have because as we move forward, does this pinball machine open up new doors for companies to explore on themes that they normally would not have tried to acquire because now they know that it's possible. Go in original IP instead of unlicensed IP? Well, yeah, have their own original concept that's going to be implemented within the licensed theme. So I don't know. Here, let me throw you this question. So you see Black Knight and you see Jurassic Park sitting right next to each other. which one do you go to well i i jurassic park i think everybody goes because you've got the recognition of that license all right that theme now let me flip this on you so you walk up instead of it being jurassic park it's still a dinosaur theme it's bally escape from the lost world 3.0 same better music you know they basically did with black knight to this dinosaur game which one do you play between uh a black knight or an original ip kind of bally lost world at that point i would probably look at both games and see what appealed to me more what playfield looked busier what animations look cooler what our package appealed to me more but i mean the pinball purist that's in the black knight's obviously going to want to go to black knight uh you know sort of rage versus a brand new dinosaur theme i would assume um it just it's literally just what calls to you that's it um so i mean on recognition alone this game is going to sell period yeah Yeah, no, I agree. Gone in 60 seconds or Fast and Furious. Guess what? I would be out if they didn't include those movie assets, at least something.
    21:13
    Okay. You know. Yeah, but I mean, everything that we're seeing, and again, we always recommend not to judge a pinball machine by the stream because the stream is just kind of extra footage of a game that you kind of hope to play. But from what I'm seeing on the stream, the game looks absolutely solid. So, you know, congratulations to Keith Elwin and the team at Stern Pinball. Bang up job. For what looks to be potentially a very successful release of the newest installment of Jurassic Park. Oh, yeah. I really like this game. And like I said, depending on how it shakes out, dude, I might try and actually attain the one that we get.
    21:48
    So we'll be streaming that game when it's released. So we'll have one here in the studio and we'll get that online. Now, this is Keith Elwin's second effort. His first pinball machine was Iron Maiden, which went over largely well within the pinball community. In fact, it was the winner of a Twippy last year for Best Layout, right? Best Pinball Design. He won a few, I think. Or Best Pinball Machine. Yeah. So when we think of Keith Elwin, this is his sophomore effort. Now we've got two more designers that are up next for their sophomore efforts, and that's going to be Eric Minier, who's over at Jersey Jack Pinball. His first effort on his own was Pirates of the Caribbean. And when I say on his own, he was the lead designer on that game. And then secondly, we have Scott Denise, his first effort, really completely on his own for the most part. I mean, he had help in getting it all together. But Total Nuclear Annihilation was his first, and he's currently working on his second game. Now, you hear the term sophomore slump a lot in sports, whereas somebody has some initial immediate success, but it's very hard to kind of live up to what you've done your first year or your first effort. and the follow-up a lot of times can be lackluster. Now, you know, we can't make a final decision on Keith Elwin or a comparison yet because we haven't flipped the game, but it looks to be a solid second effort. With Eric and Scott up next, do you think these guys have pressure on them where they are now looking at Keith's game and they're like, all right, I really got to bring my A game? Do you think that there's a fear of a sophomore slump? Do you think that these guys have the little bit of an ego and confidence where it doesn't faze them, they're just ready to get their game out in the wild? How does a sophomore effort affect these game designers? Yes to all. So there's pressure for game number two. There's definitely pressure for game number two because this is a follow-up, man. It's like doing a sequel to a movie. Most times they're not great, but from what it looks like so far, Keith's game looks great. Keith's game does look nice.
    23:38
    Eric's not going to go silently into the night, man, especially with what he brought on Pirates. Ridiculous game on Pirates. And he's just got that attitude about him where it's like, okay, you think you're going to tell me no? I really look forward to seeing what he brings out of the gate next.
    23:53
    And Scott, I've seen some of the stuff that he was working on, dude, and I look forward to actually getting to see what the theme was and going from there. Yeah, I mean, his original pinball machine, which was total annihilation, was changed to total nuclear annihilation because of, again, like IP and licensing and whatnot, was a groundbreaking pinball machine that changed the pinball landscape in a certain way, which opened up doors for manufacturers to do certain things. So was Archer. Yeah, right, exactly. Well, and Archer ended up being Iron Maiden, which was a completely different layout than what we were used to seeing, especially coming out of Stern Pinball. So when we think of these three guys, does anything jump out or does any one individual jump out at you as being somebody that might take the forefront over the remaining two? If you had to put your money on a Keith Elwin or an Eric Minier or a Scott Denisey on who will have the most successful follow-up to their first game, where do you put your money?
    24:51
    You know what? I wouldn't even take that question that way because, you know, I mean, that's so dependent. It's very objective, right? Yeah. I mean, here, let's just go off of this. So taking themes all out of it and sticking Whitewoods next to each other, I think then it's a better comparison. Okay. Because theme alone could just sell the game.
    25:10
    Well, yeah, we realize that themes alone can sell games, but the longevity of a game as far as within a pinball player or a collector usually is going to come down to some gameplay and design and code and that sort of thing. So you don't think that there's anyone between the three that might be the favorite to come out? I like all three, so I'm not even going to... If I had to put a gun to your head?
    25:34
    Better get a gun. Okay, fair enough. Honestly, you know what? Here, let's look at the... Yeah, I mean, so far we've seen Key's second game. Dude, that's a solid-looking game. Yeah, it is. Scott's game is going to be real solid.
    25:47
    Eric, he's just so driven that I don't, you know, I could just see the bar, him setting the bar higher on himself. Yeah. You know, and all three of these guys seem like they are feeling that kind of pressure and aren't just going to, you know, be content with designing something similar, this, that, and the other. So, I mean. let me ask this a different way that might not be as difficult for you to make a decision instead of asking like who you know of the three who will be the one that comes out ahead who will be the worst bill i'm kidding man i'm just i'm totally i'm busting your chops man that's look on your face where you're like dude where are you going with this it was it was kind of priceless as long as you enjoyed it you got some value put a little smile on my face there i think Here's a better statement for you that I can answer. I think all three will be the winners in their own perspective categories.
    26:42
    What does that mean? I think Scott's game, because it will be not a big run, I think it's going to be a big hit. Okay, for like a boutique company. For a boutique company, I see them making good money on that game. Scott doesn't, he'll sit there and put the hours in. Yeah. Keith Elwin. I mean, it's not a wide body. Right. But it looks like a genuinely good game. Lots of shots. Lots of shots. Lots of great animations now that lots of. Yeah. We're not as used to seeing recently. Yeah. Fancy toys. Yes. Spinning heap forward or whatever. You know, George Gomez, a little design Jeep. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And I think that Eric, I mean, they have a longer, I think they have a little bit longer of a duration of a development cycle. So, I mean, all these different things come into play. So I think literally in their own right, dude, they will all be good. So is it safe to say that these three guys, as it stands right now, are the future of pinball as we know it? I think so. Yeah, so I mean, I do agree that these guys are the future of pinball. Now let me ask you this. What happens if – is the potential there for one of these guys to have a complete dud that would have them contemplate walking away from pinball? At that point, pinball is not as important for them as far – from a designing standpoint. You know, I don't think that one bad game would stop any one of these guys. Okay. Dude, not everything is going to be a hit. You can't – you know, they all can't be winners. Right. From what Billy Bob Thornton and Bad Santa says, they can't all be winners, kid, when the chocolate's all missing from the Advent calendar. Sure. That said, I think that these guys have enough passion that they would come back even harder and put more time into what they're doing. Yeah, I know two of these guys on a personal level, that being Scott Denisey and Eric Minier. I don't know Keith at all, really. We've exchanged words over lunch a while back when he first had come to Stern Pinball. But from the two guys that I am confident saying that I know personally, those guys are tenacious. They wouldn't let something like that get them down, and they absolutely have the drive to want to come out swinging. And there's friendly competition between all three of those guys, I'm certain of it. Oh, yeah. Friendly competition. And I think they all push each other to want to excel and go further. So I think that's important, too. It's kind of back in the heyday, right, where you had like a Steve Ritchie and a Pat Lawler, and you had those guys going head-to-head. Those guys didn't want another guy's machine to outsell the other. But I'm sure there was mutual respect there, but I'm sure there was competitive rivalry. Whether it was friendly or not, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you hear stories about Pat Lawler and Steve Ritchie battling out over T2 and Adam's Family and Getaway and Twilight Zone and Star Trek Next Gen and throw Mark Ritchie with Indiana Jones in the mix. Yeah, Mark Ritchie, yep. At a time where 5,000 games was successful and they were blowing out the doors at 15,000 and 20,000 units on some of those. And even 10,000 on Star Trek and Indiana Jones was close to 9,000, I think. Yeah, I mean, it's a great time for pinball. And we are potentially seeing three rising stars, Hall of Famers, potentially come up right in front of our eyes. And maybe 15 years ago, you only thought that you would be looking at the guys that carried the torch for all these years. coming up with games and we've got some fresh blood. So it's, it's always nice to see now Scott Denise. He's going to come in on Wednesday, which is the 31st. So if you're listening to this today, it's we're releasing this on Tuesday, the 30th, but on Wednesday at seven o'clock, Scott's going to come in to the studios here, the special one, let pinball podcast studios with the total nuclear annihilation. Whitewood. It's actually here right now. I'm looking at it. This is an iconic game. This is a game changer. This, this changed partial landscape and pinball. Yeah, we're going to stream the game on the Flippin' Out Pinball channel on Twitch. And if you want to follow us on that channel, we'll let you know whenever we go live. It's Flip the Letter N Out Pinball on the Twitch channel. So go to Twitch and search that. So we'll have our mics live. You can call and ask questions. I sure Scott ready to field some questions about the game he currently working on You know what he chooses to disclose or not is completely up to him But I know he probably prepped for that But it be fun to kind of revisit this because this was such an iconic and pivotal game I thought not only for pinball but for Spooky for Scott himself. So it'll be fun to kind of revisit that. It hasn't gotten airtime in quite a while. So TNA Whitewood, Wednesday, 7 p.m. Central time. Are you ready to play a little Drain It or Save It? Let's play some Drain It or Save It. it's time for this week's edition of drain it or save it drain it or save it's brought to you by lermods.com offering you custom quality mods and lighting for your pinball machine l-e-r-m-o-d-s visit lermods.com today and the first side muffler discussion on drain it or save it for those of you new to the show if we agree with something we want to save it and if we disagree with something we want to drain it bill i'm going to ask you this to start off original themes can outsell a licensed theme in the future drain it or save it i'm gonna drain that okay so no original themes no i mean think about uh you know here let's just say jurassic park kind of sucked which i don't think it does i think it's actually a really good game but let's just take the uh play field and throw it in the garbage and come up you know throw uh water world or something in there you know anything that's not like a top 200 play field in there, people are still going to buy it, and still people are going to put money into it on location. But I think the operators are going to make a killing on that game, whether it's great or not. So I don't think originals will ever outsell. Yeah, I'm going to agree with you. I think original themes can absolutely still be produced and manufactured, and they can still be successful, but I think the power of the licensed theme with the built-in audience that can follow that theme for the most part, will prevail. So I'm also going to drain original themes, outselling licensed themes. Number two, how about this, Bill? Gambling, okay, placing wagers, can increase the popularity of pinball. Drain it or save it. I think it will increase the popularity of pinball.
    32:57
    Doesn't mean I'm happy for it, but, you know, yeah. So we'll have to save that. Yeah, I'm going to save it too. I was actually, I was discussing this on This Week in Pinball, this week with Zach, and we were talking about Jeff Teels had done an interview with Mr. Bookie, who is now taking wagers offshore on pinball tournaments. And I think the exposure that pinball can get from placing wagers can increase the exposure. And that's simply because it makes it more interesting for people that may not have watched pinball or paid attention to pinball. You know, as unfortunate as some people might think that that is, I think that wagering on pinball can increase its exposure and potentially get it televised on TV or get it televised in some fashion. Well, if you've got 1,000 people that are betting on pinball, which, I mean, is probably an outrageous number, but maybe it's not. Maybe now it is, but maybe a year from now that's not. No. You know? But, okay, let's just say it jumped up, you know, to 5,000. Some of those people might be like, you know, I didn't even think about this, but maybe I want to put a machine in my home. Right. Which is going to drive values up more. Could you imagine 5,000 people tuning into a pinball stream for a tournament because they want to see how it turns out because they're wagering money? You know, the network gets into that. People put the giant blow-up screen in their backyard and they're watching the pinball streams. So we're both going to save that. Gambling can increase the popularity of pinball. Finally, on Drain It or Save It, brought to you by Lermonts.com, an autographed apron card is always better than an autographed play field. Drain it or save it. Drain that. Drain it. Yeah. Okay. Unless it's autographed by who? Can we throw that? Just in general. Autographed. Yeah, I'm going to drain it then. Okay. I am going to save this, and it's specifically because of what you hinted at. It depends on who signed that play field, because if somebody signs a play field and that's cleared over, you can never get that signature off of there. But if you have a signed play field or a signed apron card, and it turns out that you're not a fan of that person anymore, you pop that card out, and you put something else in its place. but it's harder to do that on a play field. So I'm going to actually save that. An apron card autographed is better than an autographed play field. And you've been in that predicament, though, before. I have been in that predicament before. You have a little more emotional attachment to that. Right. Where I'm not, you know, as a... Yeah. Yeah, I haven't been in that predicament yet, so... Let's go ahead and recap on drain it or save it. Original themes can outsell licensed themes. Myself and Bill Webb, we both drained that. Gambling can increase the popularity of pinball. Myself and Bill, we both agreed that we were going to save that. And an autographed apron card is better than an autographed play field. Bill drains it, and I save it, and that's going to wrap up. Drain it or save it. So here's something interesting that I saw on Pinside, Bill, and it was a post that was made by Jeff's Pinball Palace. And I thought this was a fun one because we always talk about what we think are our favorite machines and how they correlate to other collectors and what's popular in pinball, et cetera, et cetera. And that is the topic was game outside of the top 100 you enjoy playing the most. And again, that was by Pinside user Jeff's Pinball Palace. For those of you that aren't familiar with Pinside, Pinside's an online forum group for pinball enthusiasts, collectors, buyers, sellers, et cetera. You go to pinside.com and it opens up a whole new door of pinball for you to take in over the internet. The question I have for you, Bill, if you could pick one pinball machine outside of that top 100 that's on pin side, what machine would it be to keep in your home, and why would you pick it? All right, so I'm going to kind of go with the default answer on this one. Okay, what's that? Honestly, I have two of them that are below the top 100. They're in the 100 to 200 category. Sure. I would still jump on Baywatch. Baywatch for me, too. That's what I was going to pick. I think that is the most underrated. We've been pumping Baywatch for, ever since we've got on this podcast, but we appreciated it before the podcast. And I think right now on the Pinside top 400 or whatever, it's like 106 or something like that. I was just looking at that the other day, so that's why I'm kind of versed in this. Now, I'm not one to pioneer an effort to get a game in the top 100, because in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it makes a difference. But I think the game is worthy of a top 100 recognition. So if you are somebody that has rated games on Pinside and you've played Baywatch, whether you've liked it or not, I encourage you to go in and give it its proper rating and see where that game ultimately ends up because I think that's an unsung hero. It's a lot of bang for your buck. Now, the value isn't there as much as it used to be, but it's still a pretty good value game. I think it is. In my opinion, and that's a Joe Balser game. Yeah. Sega. Dude, with the lock for the tower, that's an awesome mech. The shark flipper, the animations that are in there for the time I think are just incredible. It's a simple layout. On Saturday, we had a neighborhood party, so I had some of the neighbors come in and we were playing pinball. you know, for a half hour or whatever. And they thought you were like a pervert because you had the Baywatch pin in your basement, and they were asking your wife, why is that in here? Why don't you just get a Playboy? Did they make that, Bill? Well, there were a couple neighbors that had some drinks, and they were like, do you realize? Well, they saw the yard on the side of the cabin. Oh, yeah. Dude, you realize she has, you know, some toe fungus going on here? Hey, hey. And I'm like, well, I'm just trying to keep it family friendly. Where did she go? You just kind of ruined it for me. Whatever. Toe fungus?
    38:30
    That's what you have. Okay, what should I call that, okay? How would you describe the questionable artwork on the side? I would call that tight frontal bikiniage.
    38:46
    Yeah. I don't know this. Or the fupa on the game. I wouldn't call it toe fungus. That's the worst It totally turned me off of even looking at the cabinet And if there's fungus down there I'm sure there's not The point is that he pointed out He's like this game is great because of this He liked it because of the He's like dude I gotta bring this home man He's like my wife will absolutely hate this And I'm like that's a great reason to do it But besides the questionable Side art on that game Had nothing to do with how the game flipped He just wants to aggravate his wife He got like $700 million being kind of inebriated playing that game. Wow. I was like, dude, that's actually a good score from somebody that doesn't play pinball. It is. Well, he was motivated. Yeah, dude. He was like, this game is... He had to have loved some of the DMD animations in that game. Yeah, the suntan... Well, they promote good tanning habits with the suntan lotion. I don't know what's going on. There's some really surprising animations on the DMD that can be taken a lot of different ways on that game. They took some risks on that game. They did. But that is a great undervalued game in my eyes. Dude, you've got all the ramps. You've got the side shot that's a pain in the butt to hit, the shark flipper. Yeah, but it's so satisfying, man. It is.
    40:03
    It's not the most fun game to shop either because I've done two topside teardowns on that. And if you don't get the sequence of events correct on taking that thing down, it's not fun. And I also think that I'm going to throw one more in here that I still like. Yeah, please. Demoman. I think Demoman is kind of underrated for what it is.
    40:25
    I mean, here, as far as the gameplay goes, the translate in the back is kind of terrible. But other than that, the gameplay itself is pretty solid, and the music is kind of terrible too. But for what it is, I think it is a good value pin. There were actually a couple games that were outside of the top 200 that I just kind of was glancing at today. and one of them was or how about this at 252 now i know i realize that i'm in the minority of liking this game but i've owned a couple of them and i enjoy it and i enjoy the theme and it's a little bit more difficult to shoot than your more typical uh game of that era but that is the x files um that i love playing x files and i you know there's nothing terribly great about it but there's nothing horrendous about it no but it's a satisfying game for me it is for me it is well Now, I'm not recommending everybody go out and buy an X-Files. No, it's not everyone's cup of tea. Jump on one and flip one because it's pretty cool. But you had it here, dude, and I thought it was a great shooting pin. Up until I played it, I probably would have been in the camp of this game has to suck. It's kind of like the Houdini of its time with some tight shots where once you get the shots down, it opens up a little bit and it's easier. But for somebody that's just kind of walking up and approaching that pin for the first time and trying to flip it, it's not as inviting as it could potentially be as far as the shot flow. But there's a lot going on. A lot of people call that kind of like the poor man's theater of magic. And you can still get a good deal on that. Now, one other game I wanted to mention that's outside of the top 100, and this is number 351. Bugs funny, huh? No. But I know it's real close to that. And that is Williams Millionaire, System 11. I cannot stand that game, and I'm shocked it's already up to 351 because that game should be lower. then uh i'm just not a fan of it i owned i owned that that was like the second system 11 pin that i ever purchased after earth shaker that's one of those pins that's great to turn into something else that's you need to retheme it or and and this is what had happened like when i when i brought it home because i had not flipped it i just got a super deal it was a really nice shape one that i got like i plunged the first ball and i was like oh my gosh there's got to be more than this and And the second ball I plunged, and I was like, I never completed a game on it. I knew right then and there it wasn't for me. And I already started figuring out how I was going to offload this to somebody. And luckily for me, I had a neighbor that was looking for a small project pin. And I literally gave it to him for what I had into it, which was a good deal. And he was happy. And he took care of some problems, and he ended up selling it. But nothing against anybody involved in the design concept of Millionaire. But for me personally, it's one of those pins where if somebody asked me, would you like to borrow this game and you can have it indefinitely and I will give you $100 for taking it down, I would turn away the $100. Well, that Lethal Weapon 3. And I would turn away the Millionaire. You would turn down a Lethal Weapon 3 too. I wouldn't. You know what? I don't know that I would turn down a Lethal Weapon 3. It's not one of my favorite games. But again, I saw that one at TPF and it was all blinged out. And I was like, you know what? I could own that Lethal Weapon 3. Yeah, and Penn Sound. There's something about that Data East artwork of the time where everything kind of looked really comic-y, like Tales from the Crypt and even like Baywatch. Star Trek. Yeah, Star Trek.
    43:49
    I'm not a fan of that art style. So right away when I look at it, it just kind of looks like everything's melting off people's faces. I don't really like it.
    43:58
    Again, it's just me. It's just one of those things. I can't like everything. Well, this is all opinion. And there's guys out there that love their day to East that think the Williams people are insane. Yeah. Well, my class of 1812, that's outside of the top 100. That's a terrible game, but it's cool.
    44:16
    For whatever reason, I think it's a terrible game, but I still think it's cool. But yeah, that class of 1812, I mean, that's on that 100 to 200 ranking list. It's not a great game, but it's fulfilling because of the stupid music and the shots. Yeah. Yeah, it's not – see, but I always wonder because I've been looking for the 1812. And thank you to a lot of the listeners who have referred me to 1812s. I think because of you guys, I've actually been in dealings with three of them, and I haven't been able to close on either. But it's one of those games where I think it's fun because I can go play it at Steve Beattie's house, and I want to have it in my house. But then my fear is it will no longer be fun once I have it in my house because I'll always have accessibility to it. And I think it'll potentially get annoying for me really fast. You bring up a great point, dude. You know how they say never meet your heroes? I think that's a true case with some of the pinball machines. There's some that I've met, and it was like... I like that. And that would make an interesting segment, never meet your heroes, and it's about a game that you have fun when you can casually visit or you can watch from a distance but you don't want to get too close to because it'll ruin it for you. Or you have, and it was like you started dating your friend, and she turned out to be psycho. Right. Yeah. No good. No, it's not good. Interesting. We should think of something about that going forward. So finally, a nice busy week in pinball and lots to talk about. Now, before we let everybody go, why don't we bring everybody up to speed with what's happening with us personally? And let's start with a little Bill's Corner. What's up, Bill? What's going on with you? You know what? It's weird because we're back in the studio, so I feel like we have a little bit more time to talk and we're not as rushed. We're not trying to stream tonight, which is nice, too. We're back in Studio A. Now, typically what we've been doing the last few weeks is we've been streaming from Studio B, which is our buddy's house, Steve Beattie. We go right from our podcast, which we record over the course of about an hour. We've got a small 15, 20-minute break, and then we go right into the stream, which goes three hours plus sometimes. So it's been daunting. We're back at Studio A tonight. We're recording on Monday, which is tonight, because we're able to watch that Jurassic Park reveal. Now we are smart enough to realize that it probably not in our best interest to stream pinball while Jurassic Park is being revealed over on Deadflip channel So out of respect for him and ourselves we moved our stream to Wednesday because it just makes better sense for pinball We want everybody to come and drop in and visit us on that Wednesday night And no reason to go up against a new pinball machine reveal. It doesn't make sense. No. But anyways, as I digress, because I totally cut you off there on your corner. No, you're good. You're good. Bill's Corner. It wouldn't be a podcast if I didn't cut you off, Bill. Heck no, it wouldn't. So on Friday, Whirlwind is finally leaving. So the famous Whirlwind, the game that we saw from a young baby grow up into the world and is actually now leaving the house. See, I like to think of it as we found a crack-addicted teenager and brought her to rehab and got her clean.
    47:10
    There's so many times where – That thing had needles on it. When you were building that, I'm like, you're going to sell it? You're going to sell it? And you're like, I honestly – I think I might keep this one. And then it was interesting as you kind of tail the end of the rebuild, because it wasn't really a restoration. You rebuilt the whole thing.
    47:29
    I could tell that interest in keeping it was waning. And it was interesting because it was a lot of the same excuses or reasoning that I had for not wanting to keep a high-end pin in my house at the time. I would love to own one that I could play and not feel guilty if it gets destroyed. This one's just not that game. It's too nice to start really, you know. I can't justify keeping it. So what comes in its place? Because if there's one thing I know about you, Bill, it's like when a pin leaves, that means there's one or two coming in.
    47:58
    Unless your wife's listening to this. I don't think it's going to happen. No, she knows what's going on. So Monster or Whirlwind is leaving. Munsters is coming in. Munsters Pro. Love the artwork. I like. No lower play field. That's the version I would want, too. Dude, I love that. Pro is the way to go Don't you know If you don't know Now you know Shout out to our buddy Steve And honestly after that I think Honestly after watching the Jurassic Park stream I still want to flip it But I still think I might be in on the next Jurassic Park I really like that So we'll see I'm going to have to offload the other Jurassic Park Or the original So if anyone is listening looking for a data east uh jurassic park let me know bills classified yeah but we'll bills classified on this episode um classified and one other topic i wanted to kind of wanted to jump into and discuss um because we haven't had time recently is a couple weeks ago there was a gentleman looking for a transformers um le combo and i said hey you know a brand new one and i'm like hey you know marco's got some because i know i've seen them on their website and he you know kindly thanked me for saying that and said you know they've been played blah blah blah but they're $6,000 plus and I don't want to spend that. And I'm like, well, what are you looking to spend? He goes, well, when they came out, they were $5,200 new.
    49:22
    Okay. But that was eight years ago. Even at 2% inflation at $104 a year, that's $804 more, so you're $6,000 plus. So the guy thought because the machine was never opened that it just retained its original price. He wanted to try and find someone. It was a time capsule. that had literally sat on it and expected not to make any money on it. Great concept. It is a pretty great concept. If you could find it and make it happen. Because I'll tell you what, I want to buy every Bally Williams 90s pin new in box at the price that they were released when they were new in box. Okay, so if Adam's family was $4,000 new, I would gladly pay the 2% interest. We'll even go like 90s interest at like 3.5% compounded yearly. I will pay that for a brand new in box pin. If Twilight Zone came out and it was $4,000, I will also pay the $4,000 new in box plus the 2% for the inflation. You don't got to call. Just show up with the box. Cost of living. Sure, sure. Ken will have money. So did you talk to this individual? Because, I mean, you've got two Transformers pins right now, right? Well, I told him, I go, listen, I have a used one that's been routed. It wasn't in terrible shape.
    50:37
    It actually was in pretty decent shape. It had a little wear. in front of the one scoop. But other than that, you know, I mean, it had some cabin. Yeah, I know. But it was in overall decent shape. Yeah. Had Penn Stadiums. And he's like, well, I only want to get, you know, he's like, I don't even want to offer. I'm like, okay, well, what do you think? And he goes, I don't know, man, maybe mid threes. And I'm like, okay. Mid threes, huh? Yeah. Okay. So obviously you've been dipping somewhere. Well, because the new in box is $5,200. Yeah. So he wanted to pay. You know, a routed pin from that long ago. For $3,500. Yeah. $3,500. So, you know, I just thought that was insane. I mean, even Ripley's. Ripley's came out in, like, 05-06, and that game still commanded $35,000 to $4,000. Yeah, Ripley's is one of those games where it might be a little diamond in the rough, too, a little unsung hero. I think so. For those that haven't jumped on Ripley's. A little deeper code, a lot of shots. Yeah. Earlier, well, not earlier Stern, because it wasn't an early solid state or anything like that. Mid-thousands. Yeah.
    51:32
    But, you know, yeah, so he just said that. And I'm like, you know, I respectfully decline, no problem. But, yeah, I mean, just his take on trying to find, you know, that new in box that's eight years old. And you and I were talking, there was one in Rockford, Illinois, up until last year that was listed forever at $6,500. Well, we know the person that purchased it. Yep. And, you know, he gladly paid that money. So I don't think. Did he open it? Oh, yeah, he opened it and played it and sold it already. Hmm. Okay. You know, I just thought that was an interesting perspective. So he lost money on the new in-box at that point because he opened it. He did, but he wanted to play it. So to him it wasn't that big a deal. And I'm sure he got close to what he paid for out of it. Because right now Transformers, they might have been $5,200 eight years ago, but they're in the mid-fives if you go on pin side right now. Okay. People really didn't lose money on them. They've kind of held their value. Right, so they rebounded a little bit. Yeah. And honestly, I can't really look up the price on a brand-new Transformers combo from 2012. and I was just told that it was $5,200. Maybe that was MSRP. Maybe that was distributor cost. Whatever it might be. Either way. But you'll have a couple Transformers for sale here coming up or one or two. One. You're going to keep the other one? Well, no. I sold one already. Oh, that's right. So you got the Hurricane Edition. I got the Hurricane Sandy Edition. At that point, if the original new boxes were $6,500, I'm curious to see what my Hurricane Edition would be worth. You know what I've been getting lately is like as more and more people that are around me realize that like – and it's not so much family because some of my family knows I'm into pinball. Some of them don't, but it's like friends of friends, they're like, oh, you're the arcade guy or you're the pinball guy. And it's like, yeah, I collect a little bit, and I like to do some refurbishing and some minor restoration work and that sort of thing. And the follow-up question is, yeah, I want to get a pinball machine, man. Like how much does a pinball machine cost? And I hate that question because a pinball machine can literally cost $200 to $30,000. All right, so you're a little different, man. I always start off with, well, you can buy the collectors at Edition Willy Wonka for $12,500. I always get the snot out of them. So they look at you like, no, $12,500. I'm like, yeah, right. I'm like, brand new in box is going to be $55 to $12,500 if you want something brand new. But then my follow-up question is always like, well, what kind of themes are you looking for? I don't know. What's cool? It's like, man. So you have no personality. No. Well, I mean, they've got personalities, but it's like I think they think there's like nine pinball machines that are out. Yeah. And it's like what's of the nine? Which one? So it's always like a real hard situation for me to try to figure out how to take the time to explain that there's thousands of options that go into pinball machines. Well, you're educating the buyer. Yeah. That's the problem. But then the other thing is you do all the education of the buyer, then what am I going to do? Am I supposed to go broker a deal for somebody? And I don't mind doing that for somebody that's getting new into the hobby, taking them out on location and showing them different games, maybe take them, bring them to my house, show them how to lift the play field, all that kind of stuff. But it's just, man, it's a lot of work just trying to figure out what somebody really wants and what they'll value. And I'm going to edit all this out. I wouldn't. I would leave this all in, dude. I mean, I literally had that same question last week. There was a guy at work, because I actually have a Terminator 2 pinball machine at work for people to play, because I didn't have the room for it at my house. And brought it in. Everyone loves to play it.
    55:04
    Don't go up front a whole lot, so I don't talk with people. But I know I can read the counter on how many plays it's got. Yeah, right. And it's like 1,500 now or something like that since March or April. And one of the guys was like, dude, I'm thinking about buying a pinball machine. Great. What are you looking for? He goes, I don't know. I'm like, well, how much do you want to spend? He goes, well, what should I spend? And I gave him that same scenario. This literally happened just last week. Okay. And I'm like, you know, if you want to start small because you don't know if it's going to be just a piece of furniture, you're actually going to play it, go buy a Lethal Weapon 3. $2,000? Yeah, right. You can't go wrong.
    55:42
    That's a great value pin. You've got your DMD. It's recognizable. Great pin. I'm like, do you have a favorite movie or anything like that? Because, I mean, nowadays, anything that's been iconic has almost been, in some iteration, been transformed into a pinball machine. So, I mean, I'm just trying to get, you know, do you like movies? Do you like music? I'm going to have to come up with like a – A default list? Yeah, right, where I can just kind of like a computer program where you just start answering questions, and then it just narrows it down to your best 20 choices based on popularity. It would be kind of interesting. For the most part, these people that we get these questions from, though, they're not looking to spend $8,000 on a Twilight Zone. Right. You know, you tell them, you know. No, somebody that's just getting in most likely doesn't want to do that. But I think people that are just getting in think like a pinball machine is like $750, and you can get one for $750. But like somebody that comes over, and this has happened before, where somebody comes over and they look at my collection. And, you know, at the time maybe I had Twilight Zone and I had a Scared Stiff and whatever here. Yeah, and they're like, oh, that's awesome. How much do one of these cost? And whenever I tell them, they think I'm either crazy or that I'm kidding because I always ask, well, how much do you think it's worth? oh eight nine hundred dollars you know or a thousand dollars and i'm just thinking to myself you are so wrong you're so wrong just a bit outside i could totally see why they think that because i mean there are so many different situations i could be in where i'm asked the value on something i'd be way off because you just you don't know don't know yeah and you know what i mean it's a i've literally been in that same situation when i had the party uh recently yeah you know call people are like well dude what would this game run actually the neighbor that was you know, indulging in drinks. Do you feel insecure telling them or do you feel proud that you want to be like, you have no idea what these are worth, so I'm going to show you and you're going to think I'm pretty cool? Or is it like you have no idea what these are worth and I'm going to show you and you're going to think that I'm a loser? It's like, which one is it? Out of my mind. Out of your mind. Yeah. And the follow-up question is, does your wife know how much you bought these machines for? That is always the follow-up question. Yeah. In all honesty, that is the default question they have. Right. After you tell somebody. Normally, dude, if they're not pinball people, I really don't go into numbers.
    57:53
    No, no, unless it's ass. I don't say, hey, here's my collection. Guess how much it's worth. I don't do that either. Oh, no, no, no, no. But I mean, though, if they say, here, my neighbor asked me how much a Baywatch was, and I'm like, dude, $2,600 to $2,800.
    58:06
    And he's like, that's a... Good old days. Well, yeah, now they're creeping to three. But he was like, so I'm going to spend $3,000 on this game? And I'm like, well, if you want it. Right, and then you're going to have to learn how to work on it and how to repair it and how to replace everything and how to maintain it. Yeah. Yeah, right. You've got a $3,000 headache for yourself. Yeah. But you're going to feel better after you get to know how to do all that. Yeah, so if they ask one or two machines, you know, because they're curious about buying one, I'll kind of go into it. But other than that, I mean, if they're curious, go on eBay. That's why, you know, thank goodness for location pinball because for somebody that doesn't want to put forth the finances to fund their own machines or maintain those machines, you've got the location. So thank you to all the operators out there that are keeping the hobby alive for those that don't want to get into the ownership aspect. And those of us that have rows of pinball machines, that's it. We're out of our freaking minds. But those pinball machines are there because there were operators that maintained them for the most part. So if you're doing a good job and you're maintaining your games on location and you're keeping the hobby thriving, thank you for your efforts. Thank you for your service, literally. Thank you for the good news. Because it's huge. It's still around that I got. Yeah, absolutely, man. So pinball is fun. I wanted to do one quick little shout-out, and that's to our buddy Jason Fowler over at Slap State Pinball Podcast. Jason had a little scare recently where he had a combination of the flu and combination – or he had a combination of the flu bug that didn't sit well with another condition that he has, which is diabetes. He's been vocal on that. So we wanted to say, Jason, glad that you're back in action. We heard your podcast uploaded today. For those that haven't listened to the Slap State Pinball podcast, co-hosted by Jason Fowler and Matt Kanin, give them a listen. Hopefully by the time he hears this, he's 95%. Yeah, he was at 80% today, so hopefully he's at 95%. But he spent some time in the hospital, and it's scary. I think it puts some things in perspective for him. And, you know, we're just glad that – I'm just glad that he's feeling better. He's out of the hospital, and, you know, he'll make the necessary – It wasn't a long-term thing. Yeah, he'll make the necessary steps to keep himself healthy. And one thing I know about him is he's a very respectful guy and respectable guy, but he's an intelligent guy. He's not an idiot. And he isn't a quitter either, dude. This wouldn't hold him down, man. No, no. I do understand, though, about getting burned out with doing this stuff. I don't think he's getting burnt out doing it. I just think he's just overwhelmed. Yeah, I think there's a lot going on. I mean, he's got a career, and he's doing this extra pinball content stuff to provide on the side. And a family. And he's got his family. Yeah. So it's, I mean, just like anybody else that's out there, we all have a lot of responsibilities. And I think the most important things that you have to really consider at the end of the day is going to be, you know, your family and your personal health. Yeah. And because without those two things, I mean, what does anything else really work, right? And honestly, I mean, the pinball's fun and it's great and all, but I mean, I think you said it best in the one post that you put, you know, it's about the friends that you made along the way. Yeah, the pinball is so much about the people, and they're like an extended family for the most part. That's perfect. I wanted to thank our correspondents for all their efforts, especially when lit. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Couldn't do the show without you. I want to thank Lermonts.com for sponsoring the show. It's always good to have Rob and Kim on our side. And if you're looking for a pinball mod, go to Lermonts.com. We've got a coupon code for you. And that coupon code is SWL10.
    61:29
    SWL10. Put it in at checkout. Get 10% off your order. because Special Win Lit sent you. Got anything else, Bill? No, man. Just Monday, the game came out. Looking forward to playing. Life is good. And I can't wait to stream a retro game on Wednesday with Scott Denisey at the Flippin' Out Pinball channel on Twitch. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball so long, everybody.