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Episode 87 - RAZA's Excellent Ray

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 17m·analyzed·May 6, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Deep Root's RAZA video release sparks discussion; Pinball Company crowdfunding fails.

Summary

Tony and Dennis discuss pinball news and community developments, including The Pinball Company's failed crowdfunding campaign and Deep Root Studios' mysterious YouTube video release for their game Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (RAZA). The hosts debate the significance of the video reveal, Deep Root's silence, and expectations for game announcements before year-end. They conclude with a discussion on mystery awards in pinball and their role in competitive vs. casual play.

Key Claims

  • The Pinball Company's crowdfunding campaign for their museum/retail expansion failed to meet minimum funding requirements

    high confidence · Listener email confirmed cancellation of investment transaction with notification that minimum funding requirements were not met

  • Deep Root Studios is not a garage project but has ~40 employees with pedigree from companies like Disney

    high confidence · Dennis directly states this during discussion of Deep Root's scale and operation

  • RAZA originally started as a garage project by John Papaduke (J-Pop) under Zidware, which failed to produce games

    high confidence · Tony explains Zidware history and its transition to Deep Root

  • Deep Root offered conversion agreements to Zidware pre-order customers with a June 30 deadline, triggering either game credit or cash compensation

    high confidence · Tony states: 'they offered agreements to people who had bought on Zidware games. I believe those deadlines are the end of June of this year'

  • Deep Root was supposed to reveal at Texas Pinball Festival but did not show as planned

    high confidence · Dennis: 'Deep Roots' name was on a number of things because they sponsored the tournament prizes and stuff. But they were not, quote-unquote, at the Texas Pinball.'

  • The RAZA YouTube video was uploaded to Deep Root's channel but not actively promoted, going unnoticed for approximately a month

    high confidence · Tony: 'This video wasn't found. It was put up on their site, and it wasn't noticed for a month'

  • The RAZA video appears to feature voice work by Jeff Teolis, though not officially confirmed by Deep Root

    medium confidence · Tony: 'a lot of people felt, sounded like Jeff Teolis. And I've seen some other information that makes me believe that it's been confirmed. Not by Deep Root, but others have confirmed this.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't play pinball for the story, because it's not a book. That's what movies are for.”

    Tony @ mid-episode — Expresses philosophy on story in pinball games vs. mechanics; contrasts with Dennis's view on narrative importance

  • “I think if they were at the point where they would have had a game that was showable and believable enough to have a release date before extremely late in the year or early next year they would have rolled something into tpf”

    Dennis @ late episode — Prediction that Deep Root won't have a public game reveal before late 2025, based on their Texas Pinball Festival no-show

  • “Pinball people are fickle... you release information early, you win that media cycle, but if your game's not ready to sell, they cancel their refundable deposits, and then they pivot.”

    Dennis @ late episode — Analysis of marketing risks with early reveals, citing Jersey Jack/Wonka as cautionary example

  • “I don't understand, other than the fact that it's such a slow news week, we have to have something to talk about.”

    Dennis @ mid-episode — Self-aware commentary on why community is excited about RAZA video reveal despite limited information

  • “they've kept their shop locked down hard enough that there's nothing really floating out there”

    Dennis @ late episode — Confirms Deep Root's secretive operation and lack of leaks, contrasting with Chicago Gaming's 2018 Monster Bash experience

Entities

Deep Root StudioscompanyThe Pinball CompanycompanyJohn PapadukepersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyChicago GamingcompanyZidwarecompanyJeff TeolispersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: The Pinball Company's crowdfunding campaign for museum/retail expansion failed to meet minimum funding threshold, signaling insufficient investor support for franchise-scale pinball retail expansion model

    high · Listener received cancellation notice from crowdfunding service; Dennis concludes 'I do not think that there is enough support to keep something like that going'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinball community over-reacting to RAZA video reveal with disproportionate excitement relative to actual game information available; hosts attribute this to information scarcity and Deep Root's extended silence

    high · Tony: 'I saw people getting super excited about the video. I have no idea why you would get it. If it's a video for pinball, other than you liked the video, I don't see how you can get excited. Where's the game?'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Deep Root positioning RAZA and overall business as disruptive to pinball industry comparable to Jersey Jack's market entry, aiming for 'big player' status rather than boutique alternative

    high · Dennis: Robert's statements suggest 'they aren't trying to come in like a Suncoast pinball or a Spooky pinball. but rather, more along the lines of a Jersey Jack pinball, wanting to actually be disruptive to the hobby. A big player, not a baby player.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root Studios prioritizing secrecy and vertical integration (animation, voice work, game design) in multi-disciplinary entertainment approach, contrasting with typical boutique pinball manufacturer transparency

    high · Dennis: 'they've kept their shop locked down hard enough that there's nothing really floating out there'; Deep Root panel discussion emphasized board games, video games, mobile games alongside pinball

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.234

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, May 5th. This is episode 87. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. I had to think about it for a second. I know. It must have been a rough two weeks. May the 5th be with you? No. It's Revenge of the 5th. Oh, Revenge of the 5th. Okay. I knew there was something. I've seen references. It's Revenge of the 5th. That's what it is. Okay, Tony. I'm going to have to say, you know, we do our intro. Normally, we'd be talking possibly about, or at least mentioning that we would have gone to the 403 Club for yesterday's pinball tournament. I went. I wasn't. Where were you? I went to an out. It was terrible. Okay.
0:59
Well, I, as you know, was sitting here with you getting ready to leave. And I get a panic call from my wife because our bedroom is apparently covered in termites. Termites. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. So I went home and, yeah, there's apparently a termite colony somewhere in our house that released into the bedroom a couple thousand winged termites. So they'd all shed their wings and covered our bed and pillows and floor and everything and wings. And then vanished into the walls. Yeah.
1:32
It is their way. Yeah. And it gets worse because our dryer broke. They ate the dryer? Yes, they ate the dryer. Our dryer broke the other day and we were going to order a new one and we just hadn't gotten around to it yet. So, luckily, I was able to get a hold of my dad and steal his truck and co-pick up a new dryer instead of having it delivered and then haul the old one off. I just went and bought it and threw it in the back of the truck. And so we, because otherwise we couldn't have done anything about all of our bedding being completely covered in termite filth. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a wonderful, joyful day. Well, you know, every day really is an adventure deep down. Oh, that day started with us waking up extra early so we could go out and spend five hours garage sailing. Because it was the citywide giant super garage sailing. Okay. I didn't remember what month that even happened in. I didn't know it was this early. Yeah. It's the first week of May. So that was, actually, that was pretty good. I found a couple of nice things.
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (RAZA)
game
Willy Wonkagame
Monster Bashgame
Magic Girlgame
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
$

market_signal: Deep Root Studios uploaded RAZA opening sequence video to YouTube without press release or promotional fanfare; video went unnoticed for ~1 month, suggesting either non-promoted test release or incidental asset publication

medium · Tony: 'It was put up on their site, and it wasn't noticed for a month'; 'it doesn't even say pinball, right?'; 'they didn't leak it in a press or to my knowledge...put it out in a press release'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeff Teolis appears to have been hired by Deep Root Studios, as evidenced by voice work on RAZA opening sequence (unconfirmed by Deep Root but corroborated by community sources)

    medium · Tony: 'a lot of people felt, sounded like Jeff Teolis. And I've seen some other information that makes me believe that it's been confirmed. Not by Deep Root, but others have confirmed this.'

  • ?

    announcement: RAZA YouTube video reveals campy 1950s pulp sci-fi theme (Mars Attacks style) with opening narrative explaining Martian invasion at amusement park near defunct nuclear plant on abandoned graveyard

    high · Tony provides detailed description of video narrative: 'Martians were invading the Earth. They crash at an amusement park near a defunct nuclear power plant...probably the amusement park, was built upon an old abandoned grave'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root Studios missed Texas Pinball Festival reveal deadline despite prior sponsorship and announcement; no public game reveal or updated timeline provided

    high · Dennis: 'Deep Roots' name was on a number of things...But they were not, quote-unquote, at the Texas Pinball'; Tony: 'they've been really really quiet pretty much since saying that they wouldn't be able to make the tpf deadline'

    • 2:39
    No pinball machines? No. I sometimes see them pop up in listings for estate sales, usually one. And it's always like, I've never wanted enough to go and take the chance. I mean, it's like, are they bidding them or what? It's just one. It's usually not one I'm really keen on. One had a getaway once, though. I thought about that because that's fun. It's rough. It's hard to get the – as everyone complains about, it gets harder and harder to find deals. There are always deals, but it's getting rough even. I've rarely even seen EMs available under 500 anymore, which it used to be, even the working ones. If they weren't like a centigrade or something people really wanted, 500 wouldn't be asking for too much. It would be seen as fair. I think the last EM I sold, I sold for 500, but that was a couple years ago. Right, and now everything's like, hey, look, I've got this. It doesn't work. It's a grand. It's like, oh, hey, look, here's a 60s Williams game, 850. How about now? As Dr. Evil would say. How about now?
    3:48
    Well, I did the 403 thing, but other than that, I was traveling for work, so I didn't really do any streaming this last week up until this morning. I did some more Hollow Knight. That, in terms of video game update, I'm on, I think, the Lost Boss. I think I'm about to win. I've been trying for the good ending, so I had to do a lot of other stuff. I had to go through a big platforming section, but I'm almost there. But I'd already been going 90 minutes this morning, and so I tried the boss three times, and I was like, I'm going to wait because I got through him, and then another boss appeared, and I was like, okay.
    4:25
    Maybe next week. He's got three forms, right? Who knows? I don't know how many forms he has. I'm hoping that's it. I think he has three forms. That would be – it's such a stereotype. It is. But, I mean, I also think I recall from watching Speed Run that there were three forms to Speed Run. Okay, well, that would fit. Well, speaking of forms, we normally have two forms, a pinball segment and a video game segment. So I guess we can go ahead and transition over into the pinball segment now.
    4:54
    But before we do that, this is related to pinball, I need to issue a correction. Last episode, we were walking through our thoughts on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. I repeatedly, almost consistently, referred to the back box of Willy Wonka having a trans light. This is technically incorrect. They don't use the poster trans light. The JJP games use actual back glasses. So it was pointed out that I was wrong. All iterations of it have an actual back glass, not a trans light. So, correction noted.
    5:30
    Very good. Okay. Yeah. I can tell you care about as much as I did. So in terms of the news, here's a little interesting one that one of our listeners wrote in on. I won't name them because I wasn't sure if they wanted to be tied to this or not. But you may remember, Tony, way back. Like, gosh, it feels like at least half a year. We talked about the pinball company and how they were doing some crowdfunding.
    5:59
    Oh, to make like a physical store. and some other stuff. Yeah, like they were doing some museums where they would sell games, I think was the idea, and they were going to start in Chicago. Yeah, because that's what Chicago needed, was more pinball sellers. Right. And so they were crowdsourcing investors. They were using one of those. It's like a Kickstarter service, but it's actually designed to get investors. One of our listeners wrote in because he did send them like a couple hundred dollars through that system to support them. He received an email from that service which said that the, I guess it canceled his transaction saying that they did not meet the minimum funding requirements. So he didn't remember when he did that that there was a target amount that the site said had to be raised. But apparently there was some sort of threshold or the pinball company had a threshold in mind. They didn't get to it, and so they decided to pull out of selling equity in their company, and I don't know. So given all that, I mean, this was the first I'd heard of this. I haven't read it on any of the forums. Granted, I don't go around really looking for information explicitly on pinball company all that often, but I remember this was like a hot thing for all of a week where everyone found out about there were like a couple investing sites, I think that they were up at, I believe I heard a podcast. I don't recall which one. Yeah, it was a while ago. Yeah, where the pinball company was on and they were explaining what their plan was. I know they had a seminar at one of the shows before the investment stuff came out. And they talked about how they didn't need to do it this way, but they wanted to because pinball people wanted to be supportive and all that.
    7:46
    Do you think that they're moving forward at all? And they're just decided to drop the crowdfunding because the support level just wasn't there? or are they not doing the plan at all? Because they have this really ambitious plan where they're going to spread these museum shops all around the U.S. I don't think they go forward with the plan. I mean, I could be wrong. They say if they actually have the money, I just don't think there's the support to support. I do not think that there is enough support to keep something like that going. Unless I throw support four more times in that sense. Well, there are parts about the idea that I liked and there's parts that I don't. The shop side of it makes me think, does the nation really need another Aminis? And that's what it feels like to me. And the answer is no on that. However, the idea of building a pinball museum, this is an aside. This is a personal thing. I'm getting a little tired of everyone just calling things a museum when it's really just an arcade. Yeah. It's like if it's all new stuff, you're not running a museum, okay? Unless it's – okay. I have to hedge on that because there are museums of modern art, for example. So nonetheless, just saying I don't know what that means. Is it not an arcade if you make it a nonprofit and then it becomes a museum? Maybe that's all you need to do. But if you're trying to sell games through that mechanism, I'm not sure it's a museum. That said, the idea of an arcade where you go and can actually buy the stuff you're playing, I could see where there'd be merit in large metropolitan areas for where the traffic may be high enough for that. Yeah. So I could see it working. I don't know about this, like, I want to be the McDonald's of pinball. That's how, I mean, just spreading everywhere like pandemic. because as we know, there's no victory in that approach.
    9:45
    So I don't know. Yeah, it's not... My guess would be that they're not moving forward with the plan as originally envisioned, but there's probably still going to be some expansion effort of some sort. That's what I think. Without having to ask them, I don't care enough to. But I think it's interesting that the crowdfunding has officially failed or been discontinued in some capacity. It is crowdfunding. It is. At least it was returned and not just sat on the page. Oh, yeah, no, it was just a... I mean, in the world of Kickstarter, this would be... It's not a controversy when you don't meet your threshold and you don't get the money. That happens all the time. Right. It's just, we don't usually... It's more things like the Stern pinball book where it gets funded and then it's three years behind schedule.
    10:32
    That's the usual Kickstarter story we talk about. You know, we actually never talk about that Stern book. it comes up all the time. I never put it in our notes because I didn't buy in on it so I don't care what happens with that book. Granted, we cover things I don't really care about all the time either, but I'm not surprised that pinball people went in on a Kickstarter because they pre-order everything.
    10:58
    The lessons are never learned. Some people just never learn anything. Oh well, we can keep warning them. I don't feel like rubbing their face in on a $30 book, so whatever. It's not going to be a big deal. You can be upset about it as much as you want. They keep saying it's still coming out, so until we hear otherwise, that's all we have to say about that. I only have one other news item. This is the one that's been making the rounds on a lot of the other podcasts. I don't know if we're going to be the last to talk about it, but near enough. Close enough. Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. Oh, yes. Okay. For those that aren't aware, and we have a link to this in the show notes, a video was found on YouTube housed under Deep Root Studios.
    11:47
    And it appears to be an opening sequence to Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. The video is in a really wide aspect ratio. Really wide aspect ratio. Have you seen the video? I watched the video. I saw the video. And so just as a quick summary, go and watch the video if you want to understand it. I would summarize it as it tells a little brief campy story that explains how Martians were invading the Earth. They crash at an amusement park near a defunct nuclear power plant.
    12:20
    And some part of it, probably the amusement park, was built upon an old abandoned grave. Well, not abandoned, but an old graveyard. An old abandoned graveyard. So basically it tries to, in a very silly way, which I think is the only way you could do this, try and explain why the name of this game is Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. And apparently they decided Martians were the way to get that in. And the retro of it is it's very like Mars Attacks, 1950s, aliens looking, you know, Martians. Kind of pulpy sci-fi. Yeah, pulp. There we go. Good description, pulp. so here's the thing this game commonly called Raza for short this isn't the first time we've heard about Raza now Deep Root, they had a panel at a show, their studios did where they talked about this multifaceted company and I think we all were aware of that in terms of maybe we didn't understand the scale like they're talking about making board games with these, not just pinball but board game side of it video game side of it, maybe mobile game side of it, things like that. So you take an IP and you release it across, you franchise it, kind of. So that's sort of what the Deep Root Studios, which has near on, I think, 40 employees, who have a pedigree with companies like Disney and such. So they're, I mean, they've got veterans. Yeah, they've got people. It's not like Frank and his three best friends in their garage. No, it ain't a garage project. Yeah. But apologies if your name is Frank and you've got three best friends who are working in a garage right now. Well, if you've got three best friends, maybe you need to try and pick an actual best and quit hedging. Oh. Hard take? Nah. They know. They know that that's a bunch of crap. You're not the Spice Girls. Frank, you're not the Spice Girls. Get over yourself. the uh Razzo did though start as a garage project with John Papaduke aka J-Pop who is a pinball designer now with Deep Root but this was one of the games that was planned and pre-ordered on with his company Zidware which failed to produce any games other than arguably Magic Girl which American Pinball built as a contract deal of some sort of arrangement with J-Pop but the game didn't really work when it flipped. They didn't have full functionality. That's probably a kind way to describe it, but an accurate way.
    14:55
    So here's what I thought. I mean, we can talk about the video if you want. I saw people getting super excited about the video. I have no idea why you would get it. If it's a video for pinball, other than you liked the video,
    15:09
    I don't see how you can get excited. Where's the game? that's what I would need to see to get excited I could draw a stick figure picture talking about a pinball game and I guarantee you there's 40 people in the hobby who are going to get hard odds over it and they'll probably be sending me money oh wow maybe you should start doing that maybe you should doodle I don't want to get sued, that's the problem that's a good point litigation is annoying Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing, obviously, is that it's been really quiet out of Deep Root for a while now.
    15:53
    And the issue with that is, you know, they were supposed to, originally, per their plan, they were going to have these five days of Deep Root. The fifth day was going to be at the Texas Pinball Festival. We were at the Texas Pinball Festival. Deep Roots' name was on a number of things because they sponsored the tournament prizes and stuff. But they were not, quote-unquote, at the Texas Pinball. There were some of their designers there, mostly signing things based off of their pedigree for being with Williams in the past, I believe. Well, it's not like – I mean, they made an announcement beforehand. No, no. It was all – but clearly things didn't go according to plan. Much like in the prior year, in 2018, Chicago Gaming was supposed to reveal Monster Bash remake at Texas. And you remember, it was half a year later before we saw it, and almost every piece of information that came out is they got really, really quiet, and then things started to leak. Now, with Deep Rooter, there haven't been leaks. This is the closest thing to a leak. This video wasn't found. It was put up on their site, and it wasn't noticed for a month. so not much of a it's not really a leak they chose to put it up on youtube the the thing that i where i'm going with this in a rambling sort of way is deep root's been really really quiet pretty much since saying that they wouldn't be able to make the tpf deadline they've been non-committal regarding new deadlines and so i think a lot of people are just really excited to see anything coming out of Deep Root, and as it being pinball, there's a degree of overreaction.
    17:36
    I mean, liking the video sequence, I enjoyed the sequence. I liked that it was campy. It reminded me of a 90s Valley Williams approach. All that said, I haven't seen a game, so it's not going to get me excited. I don't play pinball for the story, because it's not a book.
    17:56
    That's what movies are for. I want there to be a story. It's not a book. That's what movies are. Look, I'm bouncing out. Look as I sit in the video. That's a real horror. Oh, my gosh.
    18:08
    We're cutting all of this out. We're cutting all of this. They'll make it into a movie. I'm just trying to think of things where plot really, really matters. So that's books. That's movies. That's theater.
    18:25
    Some video games. Mechanics are still more important Even in a video game A game with terrible mechanics but a great story Is not a good game Yes but a game with great mechanics and a terrible story Isn't a good game either A game with great mechanics and no story Is a great game It depends upon the type of game An RPG with great mechanics and no story at all Is not you doing that I don't know But you'd enjoy playing it because the mechanics are so good See what I'm saying I don't know if I would Maybe not. Okay, we'll have to think on that. That might be an interesting discussion at some stage to do. The importance of balance in the RPG. I mean, because I guess you're saying mechanics good or fine for certain types of games. I don't need a story to know why my guys are beating the crap out of each other in a fighting game. Right. I don't need a story to know... But it's nice gravy. Yeah. A good story in pinball to me is nice gravy. Right. I don't care that I'm not being told a linear narrative when I play the Star Trek game It just throwing things at me to try and nostalgia out of the movies to keep me interested Whereas in another game maybe this maybe Raza perhaps the story is told in a linear fashion I don't know. That's possible. I don't know. But I don't really care in a strong sense about how they choose to incorporate story elements. I just don't. For pinball, I just don't. I just don't think it's. I don't care about a story in a painting either. There's probably a way you could do it. In panels. Yeah, they're called comics. Yeah, but they add words. That's true. Not all of them.
    20:01
    And the ones that don't. That's avant-garde. I don't know what those words mean. No one tell me. I want to keep the mystery.
    20:12
    All right, so back to Deep Root. What are your thoughts on this? What are your thoughts on Raza? What are your thoughts on Deep Root?
    20:19
    We interviewed Robert, the principal behind Deep Root, way back over a year ago. He did a few interviews since then. This Week in Pinball has had some information on it.
    20:31
    It's been a company that I've remained really interested in because of the statements that Robert has made. Suggests that they aren't trying to come in like a Suncoast pinball or a Spooky pinball. but rather, more along the lines of a Jersey Jack pinball, wanting to actually be disruptive to the hobby. A big player, not a baby player. Now, not all, I mean, we could discuss whether JJP actually became the big player they wanted to be. I think it's arguable that they're not even the number two manufacturer that Chicago Gaming is. I don't know. I don't have the numbers. But they're trying. They're trying, and there isn't really any debate that some of the things that Jersey Jack put into their pinball machines has clearly motivated others to follow that route. Oh, yeah. Namely, the LCD.
    21:24
    So, but Raza in and of itself, it wasn't ever, like, it's not a game theme. It sounds fine to me. I never, you know, it wasn't one of those. I wasn't in on the Zidware stuff. Like I wasn't really following it is what I mean by not in on it. Yeah, that predated my time of paying more attention to pinball than going, oh, look, quarter, flip, flip, flip, quarter, flip, flip. Well, the pricing out of the Zidware was so high I would never entertain going into it. But I'm just curious what you think at this stage regarding Deep Root and their relative level of silence. As a reminder, they offered agreements to people who had bought on Zidware games. I believe those deadlines are the end of June of this year, where they were offered Deep Root Games if they would sign away the right to litigate Zidware and J-Pop for failing to produce on Zidware. so there's a deadline here and if that doesn't happen it's been a while since I read I did read what those agreements were I believe cash compensation is what triggers if the games aren't ready so it's not like they have to meet the deadline right it just changes what they get but I would assume they would rather because a lot of those deals were credit towards the Deep Root game right so it'd be you know financially it's probably better to give them the credit towards the MSRP on your Deep Root game than it would be to just give them that in cash.
    23:00
    I'm sure the people who agreed would be happy either way, but nonetheless... Would they, though? Would they really?
    23:10
    I'm just rambling on this way too much. Let me be more pointed. Do you think Deep Root shows a game before July? No. I don't think so. I have trouble thinking so, either. I think if they were at a point where they would have a game showable... I think if they were at the point where they would have had a game that was showable and believable enough to have a release date before extremely late in the year or early next year they would have rolled something into tpf even if it wasn't a full everything even with robert repeatedly saying that he didn't want to reveal a game unless they could get him into a person's home within two weeks like stern that's why i don't think there's going to be anything until the end of this year at the earliest. But based off of those statements, he would have until mid-June to show us anything and then still be able to, if he wanted to, do that quick turnaround on the shipping. Provided they can do the quick turnaround on the shipping. Right, but because they've been so quiet, we don't know what their capabilities are. Right, and that's the thing. And they've kept their shop locked down hard enough that there's nothing really floating out there. So, I mean, because they've been quiet, and not committed to deadlines. That's why, in terms of coming out and saying, here's where we think we'll reveal. That's why I'm saying I don't think that they'll have a reveal before the end of June.
    24:33
    But that said, they haven't been leak prone. If they wanted to do it and they've got the capability to do it, they could definitely execute still. There's plenty of time. They wouldn't have to show us anything. Now, I've heard on some other podcasts, frustration, people wanting to see the game. I'm in the same boat of, I'd rather see a game and get excited than see the video for Raza and Excite. So I agree on that regard, but Deep Root isn't obligated to show us anything. So I don't really go to that. Yeah, I'm curious in that same baseline ability of on occasion that, oh yeah, I also want to know what goes into nitroglycerin. I'm curious. So I go to Wikipedia and look it up. That level of curious. Right. But not like I don't really need to know. Yeah, no. So. It's definitely one of those things where I'm not, it's not like I'm, you know, chomping at the bit trying, oh, what are they going to do? Oh, it's going to be so amazing. Oh, it's going to be this and scouring all the little patent this and that's for things. Nah. I don't.
    25:40
    When the game is ready, they'll show something. and it'll either be awesome, mediocre, or suck. Sure. And we're not going to know until then. And I don't understand, other than the fact that it's such a slow news week, we have to have something to talk about. Well, that's why we're discussing it, obviously. Well, because the video was seen as big news to pinball people. Here's the thing. The only thing is, I wouldn't have even let the video out if they're not close. I think they were being really smart on not showing anything I think especially because I don't want to come across as a hypocrite just on the last episode I was criticizing how I still think that Jersey Jack moved too soon revealing Wonka when it's over two months out they did and Deeper doesn't seem to be making that mistake so some video asset came out we haven't seen a picture of the shape of the game or anything, people have found some patent stuff regarding some ideas they had on play field removal, whatever. So they're keeping that quiet like they said they would. They're not obligated to humor me by showing a sneak peek on it. I've heard some people that think that they need to do this stuff, and I don't understand why. I don't know why. Because that's the stuff that people get mad at JJP for going, look at all this awesomeness that you can play the game in two years. Well, and then the interest goes away. And that's the thing. Pinball people are fickle. and this got to have the latest and greatest thing, it cuts both ways. So you release information early, you win that media cycle, but if your game's not ready to sell, they cancel their refundable deposits, and then they pivot. If Wonka isn't out by July and it got pushed back by another two months, they will lose sales to whatever that next Stern game is. And if Deep Root slips in there in between, they'll probably lose sales to Deep Root too. Yeah. So I can't, as I sit here, as a non-marketing person, but as a human being with a wallet, and I think about what would Deep Root gain by drip-feeding us elements of a reveal, I can't come up with anything that would help them. It would amuse me, but I can't think of why it would be smart business. I think that's one of those three things about how it was something that was put out there, but it was a video that wasn't pushed out there. There was no fanfare. They just kind of dropped it. And if somebody, it doesn't even say pinball, right? Maybe it does in the video at some point, but the, like the YouTube video doesn't call it a pinball video or anything, which is probably why no one noticed it. Right. But it was just something that was just kind of floated out there. And I'm sure that's just something that was done. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying they did it for a reason. I'm not saying, oh, we're just okay here. We're going to slide this one little thing out here. Just kind of. We'll see how long that takes to get traction or whatever. Just as something that we're going to float and see what the reactions are. Just enough to basically keep their name in it without it being. Yeah. But given that they didn't leak it in a press or to my knowledge, at least put it out in a press release or anything. I'm I don't even know that they thought about it from a marketing standpoint at all. It's just a little video that shows what their studio can do in terms of animation, voice work. Oh, now that's an interesting thing. It sounds like one of the voices, a lot of people felt, sounded like Jeff Teolis. And I've seen some other information that makes me believe that it's been confirmed. Not by Deep Root, but others have confirmed this. So when are you going to voice a pinball machine, Tony? Never. Not ever? I mean, sure, if somebody wants me to, I can voice whatever, but I don't have that. I don't have those velvety tones. You would if you were Canadian is what you're saying. Yes, I probably would if I was Canadian. I think that's one of those things that happens when you're born Canadian. They give you your passport that says sorry, and you're issued velvety tones. Well, that does make a lot of sense, as I think on that. Yeah. Okay, well, that was it for Pinball News. so because I knew there wouldn't be very much I wanted to put in a little bit of we haven't had like a discussion on a theoretical topic well theoretical is not the right word but just sort of a more high level conversation on a pinball thing in a really long time like over a year maybe it's been so much just raw news lately that we haven't had to We haven't had to do any. So I figured we could have a little one. And so here's what I want today's pinball discussion to be. I want it to be on mystery awards. So mystery awards. Not very common in the electromechanical area, but I can't say completely devoid of mystery awards because games like Fantastic with its rotating spinning wheel and the spinning targets that Gottlieb would do, Those sort of things basically were a randomized way to get points.
    30:59
    Obviously, in the solid state era, mystery awards became much more prominent. But they're also really controversial. Tournament people don't like them because one person shoots a scoop and gets an extra ball. Well, maybe that's not the best example in an IFPA tournament. One person shoots a scoop and gets 5,000 points on Silver Slugger. Another person shoots the kick out hole and gets a million points. That would be a good example. That's a very good example. I was just wondering, Tony, what do you think about mystery awards in general, really in the context of what do you think their place in pinball should be, not is. I mean, we could objectively say what their place is, but what do you think the role of the mystery award is in pinball today? Should there be mystery awards? If there should be, should they be different in the tournament setting? What do you think is the best way to control for that sort of scenario? Just anything you want to think about on mystery.
    31:59
    I think for the general user, the general player, the home player, the location player, mystery awards are fun little things that don't affect anything other than letting you enjoy your game more. And it helps amp up the energy when you're playing with friends. I mean, outside of a tournament setting, I've got no problem with mystery awards. As long as they're not something really bad like we saw at times where it's like, oh, swap score with player one. Yeah, stuff like that. But, I mean, just, oh, I lit, I got a special mystery award only multiball. Or I lit this. Or, oh, that was fun. That was an interesting little thing. Yeah, it's fine on that. I do think if you want to get serious about it in a tournament setting, putting a machine on tournament mode should either completely remove them or lock them down so that while it gives some variations, none of them are like, here's this really sucky one. Here's this amazing one. I mean, that's the bare bones of it. I mean, I think that would make sense from a fairness standpoint. I don't think mystery awards are breaking tournaments. There are people who are like, oh, I would have gone to this tournament, but they've got mystery award games, and I'm not going to play that. I don't recall the last time I heard somebody complain that I would have gotten first place in this tournament, but I missed the mystery award, but I got the bad mystery award. Yeah, I'm not sure I've actually heard that explicit complaint, but I remember hearing a complaint about one of the tournaments I was at once, not a monthly one, but someone really objected to the last game that they were put on and felt that it was a luck box game and didn't think it was appropriate as the final game. Granted, they lost, but they may be right. They could have been right. I don't remember what the elements were of the game. I wasn't the one playing on it, so it didn't matter to me. But broadly speaking, I agree with pretty much everything you said from a casual perspective. I think mystery awards are quite a bit of fun. They're obviously still used quite a bit today.
    34:22
    On the tournament, I don't know about completely – well, I assume by completely disabling, what you meant was that shot always gives you a set. Right. And there are some games – You get an extra ball. Instead of getting an extra ball, you get a set point. Right, right, right. Like, I think, I think, I believe Attack from Mars, when it's put in its tournament settings, the stroke of luck is always some point award value. It doesn't ever change. Right. I'm fine with that for tournaments. I'm also fine with the progressive ladder system, where the award from the mystery gets generally going from the weakest award to the best award in sequence. So if you keep activating and hitting it, you can get better and better awards. It's in the same order for the other person's playing as well, though. Yeah. So I like that approach. Yeah, that works too. But I do think that they should always be on. I don't think that that shot should all of a sudden become, say, unlit and not worth anything because then you're taking a shot out of the game that should. I just like the idea of all shots having value at some point. So I would just qualify it with that. in terms of yeah things like the Bugs Bunny ending I also hate rubber banding awards so I'm thinking like Police Force where see some of these aren't even mystery awards so things like with Police Force it ain't a mystery you like do these certain ramp shots on ball three and you get a catch up provision I mean that's one of the big complaints that a lot of people had with Premiere games was the mystery variance was so high that it felt they being Premiere were doing it to be like a catch-up feature.
    36:08
    Rubberbanding is a term that people who play video game racers are familiar with. The Mario Kart series is notorious for the AI having, well it's the items. The items are the rubberbanding tools. Some other games like some of the Need for Speeds were really notorious about the AI cars having rubberbanding capabilities to always catch right back. You could never blow them out of the water, no matter how good you were. Right. That sort of stuff. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of that. Yeah, score swapping. Here's one. We're getting a little away from the mystery war, but you brought it up with your concern about things like score swapping. What do you think of Jersey Jack's Pirates of the Caribbean and their plundering? You might remember when we were at Texas, I plundered our third-person opponent and took all of his points. And I won that game, and I wouldn't have had I not taken his points. and they also that plundering goes further they allow you to steal other people's balls so you can make someone only have a two ball game instead of a three ball game not really a mystery it's a plundering and so people know that can be turned off for tournaments right what do you think about something like that not mystery but that because you brought up the notion of the, like at the end of the Bugs Bunny it was a, do you want to open your present, yes or no? It wasn't a mystery award. You got to choose. Do you want to see what happens when you open this present? And it will be, I think it's always score swapping. Whereas like if you were in first place, you might want to say, no, I don't want to see what's in the present. But so like plundering though, it's still in that same vein of what some people will interpret as cheap, unfun things like mysteries are.
    37:57
    I hate it. You hate it? I hate it. Okay. What do you think of, here's another one, again, not a mystery, but people often complain about it in the tournament settings, in particular, lock stealing, like total nuclear annihilation, which does not let you turn it off in a tournament setting. Lock stealing is always on on TNA by deliberate choice. Yeah, I'm actually okay with lock stealing in those games for the specific reason because of how they're set up is that makes it a possible large reward for you to go for it, to go to get your locks and get the multi-ball started, but you have to believe in your ability to do it. Otherwise, you don't take the shots. Right. And I agree on that. It's a strategy thing. I agree on that perspective about, like, Grand Lizard, for example, was a game where I have locked balls and then I didn follow through But I chose to I made a choice That or I just flailed and got them which is probably more likely But the point being that I had the ability to not put myself in the position to lose the locks in the first place On the plundering, I'd probably like the idea more if you engaged in some sort of scoring strategy, which opened you up to being plundered, and you could avoid it. I'm not saying that would be a fun thing to try and implement in code. Right. But I could see that being like, do you wish to collect – like you go into a scoop, like a crank it up mode almost, and be like, okay, here, would you like to have 100,000 points? Warning, you will now be susceptible to plundering. You know, screen choice. Do you take the points or do you just take 10,000 points and you don't get opened up to plunder? I don't know. I kind of liked the plundering because, again, because the game allows – Because it lets you win. Well, yes, that helped. But that being said, they did incorporate the ability to disable the feature. And since it's disableable, I don't have a problem with it being in the game, I think. You might be able to complain that it wasn't prominent enough. But the game doesn't revolve around playing. Right. And that's the thing. If it's able to be shut off, then fine. You still sound like you don't really like the game. No. No, for me, that's not a strategy thing like it is with the ball locks, where I work towards this and I fail to complete it, so the other guy got to take it. This is, I played a good game, and the other guy managed to take all of my points. You know, kind of like a mystery award, though, where they kind of got to get to have more points with not any work. But if there's no way for you to prevent it, if there's no way for you to dodge it, It's just something you always have to be concerned for. Yeah, I think the issue there with the plundering is that because it inflicts damage on another person. It's not the same as you just getting more points. But that said, I could see, especially in a casual play setting, it being fun to just destroy your friends like that and make them sad.
    41:09
    It was fun for me. Yes, of course it was fun for you. It was a lot of fun for me. All right. Winning is always fun. It is. I learn nothing from winning other than that I learn how much fun it is, whereas you learn so much from failure.
    41:24
    Okay, well, that's all I had for that discussion. In VRAM, we, at the last episode, indicated that we would do another non-volatile RAM drawing for a pinball machine.
    41:36
    And so I conducted that. A deadline to turn everything in, and we announced this on the social media as well, was by quote-unquote close of business on Friday. I actually ran the drawing today. We had nine entrants.
    41:49
    So you see people, these things, you'd have another person that entered, you'd have a 10% chance of winning, which is pretty good odds.
    41:58
    We required them to submit their favorite four-flipper game, or, well, really, a four-flipper game. And so here's what we had. We got, just in terms of the games, We had two people submit F-14 Comcat, the System 11 game. We had two people submit Iron Maiden, which was the Twippy Game of the Year for 2018. We had one entrant say Game of Thrones Premium.
    42:24
    We had one entrant say Paragon, which I did expect at least one person to submit Paragon. That's my surprise was that there was only one. We had one person submit Radical, another System 11 game. Not a very common one. Someone submit Grand Lizard There should have been more than one Grand Lizard That game is amazing Grand Lizard sucks That game is amazing It sucks The jungle music pisses me off Oh that is the greatest I hate it That's like the third greatest music in pinball I hate the whole upper play field on Grand Lizard I've gotten better at it I've managed to straight face all of that Yeah Someone actually And in the email You can see it in the EGP email So they argued quite, well, I won't say forcefully, but they seemed to actually truly really like it. So they're the first one I ever met.
    43:19
    And then I thought I'd have more than one of these, but we had one Twilight Zone submitter. I see. I figured Paragon and Twilight Zone would have been the ones we saw the most of. Yeah, I didn't, you know, I forgot about F-14, quite frankly, about it having four flippers.
    43:34
    It's because you hate the game. It's just I don't hate it. But it's too fast. It's too fast for me. It's almost like Mustang's sort of too fast for me. I feel like I'm not following the ball because of all those coils firing. As you roll up there and slide your walker to the side. Yes, yes. Well, look.
    43:52
    Thankfully, I only know one person with one, so I don't have to play it that much. So anyway, I went to random.org this morning to draw the name. Tony can actually see. I took the screen cap of the drawing. Actually, I already wrote to the winner and heard back from him. Otherwise, we'd just go down the list if I needed to, to give it to someone else. Somehow their email address disappeared and they had fallen into a river and floated away downstream. It happens to pinballers, I've found. They're very prone to water accidents.
    44:24
    Water damage. Yeah, water damage. So congratulations to Dee Farrell. He is the winner. He was one of the two people who submitted Iron Maiden As a good choice It is So congratulations to him And as I noted, I've already emailed him He's already told me what chip type he wants And I don't know when we'll do the next drawing Maybe next episode, but not this time You gotta wait We have to cool off You gotta hope for it That's right Speaking of cooling off, Tony Are you ready to play some 20 questions? Yes For those that don't remember 20 questions is the hit pinball segment that we sometimes do, most of the time do, where a series of yes or no questions will be asked. The questions will be about a flipper pinball machine that the person asking the questions has played at least one ball on. And for the first 15 questions, they cannot use any outside help. But for the final five questions, they may use internet resources to help narrow down and find the answer. We have never had anyone fail to get the pinball machine before question 20. This is the easiest game that could ever have been created, and I wish I had made it a lot harder when I came up with it originally. Well, I'm screwed now. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think so. In fact, many of my picks are very fair in my assessment. but when Tony is ready he will ask his first question and I will keep track of the question count is it world champion soccer no I didn't know you'd ever played world challenge soccer is that your world challenge yeah I did say that didn't I yeah I have to add beeps oh well that was a good try It's funny.
    46:26
    All right. Would you like to guess something else for your second question? Besides World Challenge Soccer? Soccer. Which is, I saw one finally. That's the game I've been looking for. That's the one. But I've never played it. Right. And so I assumed you hadn't played it. No, I haven't. No, the one I was thinking of was the one that you tried to foist on me so much at.
    46:47
    Because I did so well on it at Texas. But you don't remember the name of it. you don't have to name it what are the odds that is it striker extreme no oh I was so close to doing it this time I'm so glad I didn't I thought no he won't try it again now that I've learned two terrible questions no the second one at least was possible the first one was not that was the one that you're looking for for your own, like, I'm curious. I'm curious. It's my nitroglycerin game. I'm just curious about it. So, it's your nitroglycerin game? Earlier I talked about looking up things that I didn't really care about but with Wikipedia. Oh, okay. Like, how to make nitroglycerin was something I looked up once I saw something and I thought, how do you make that? Okay, it's a nice throwback. Yeah. Good. Very nice.
    47:51
    Is it an EM? No. Does it have an LCD? No. Is it a DMD? No. That's question five. Is it a Williams? Yes. Is it 1980 or newer? Yes. Is it 80 to 85? No. So it's newer than 85.
    48:21
    Williams. no DMD. Is it an 86? No. Williams, non-DMD, newer than 86. Is it sci-fi themed? As in straight science fiction, not fantasy. No.
    48:41
    That was question 10. If I was smart, one of these days I'd sit down and start memorizing pinball machines, apparently.
    48:49
    I don't know. It would make this stuff easier Would it? But would it really? You seem to do a better job about it It really just depends Both on the game chosen And what games currently Are just sort of in my head Like last time It was helpful that you went with a game from TPF Because those were all really fresh Right Whereas if you had gone with a game from Pizza West Three years ago I probably would have struggled But I also have written about a number of the things that relate to some of these games, so it's helpful for me because I had to look them up before. All right. Is it 87? No. 88? No.
    49:33
    89? No. Holy s**t. There's another cuss word for you to get rid of. Sorry. Let's see. 13 questions so far, and I've got two yeses.
    49:46
    But every no gets you closer. Yeah. Every game that comes to my mind, I'm sitting here thinking of it. It's like, well, no, that's got a DMD.
    49:56
    Well, maybe you just need to narrow them down through some other means. Now, is it sports themed? No. Is it fantasy themed?
    50:08
    No. That's question 15. You may start using Internet tools. This is going to be a bad one. This one's going to hurt. I haven't really had to dig deep for stuff lately.
    50:22
    Is it sad that I've got IPDB so it auto finishes? No! It shows your dedication. It shows your commitment to science. Pinball science. Pinball science! Science!
    50:36
    I'd ask you the question I always ask you. Is this one of those, the second I see it, am I going to start bashing my penis? I don't know. I don't know this time. because I'm doing really bad this time. I think this is the worst I've ever done. What? No, you've turned to resources before.
    50:55
    Normally by the time I've turned to resources, I've had more than two yeses. Yeah, the worst you've ever done was get it on the 18th question. You've done that twice. So you got plenty of guesses before that still.
    51:09
    Let's see. Games I've played. so you sit here with all this space to cut out because i'm doing a horrible run of it is it roller games no that was 15 that was your 16th question 16 was it diner no was it harley davidson no oh man so this is my worst i might fail That was 18, wasn't it? Or was that 19? No, that was 18. You got two guesses left. Was it Whirlwind? No. Okay, Tony. You get one more try. One more failure. Hmm.
    52:02
    Well, going with the last one that I can possibly think of, because it's literally the last one I have a chance for, was it Game Show? No. I fail. It was Dr. Dude. That's a science fiction theme. Nope, it's listed as celebrity fictional. Really? That's why I hesitated when you asked me sci-fi. I wrote that off because it's all about, because to me that screams science fiction. That's why I paused and that's why I couldn't say if you would kick yourself or not on it. Because it's got some sort, something in it I would classify as sort of sci-fi-esque because I guess his excellent rate makes him a cool dude. But when you wanted it to be hard sci-fi, then it's mostly like a high school game. But that's not even what IPDB calls it. It just says that it's some sort of fictional, where you're just trying to be a cool dude. No, I can understand it. I just literally, that was the one I wrote off because of, but I don't know. And I wondered, but then you asked sports, and then you still guessed Roller Games, so then I thought, okay, well. Well, Roller Games would have been sports and sci-fi. That was a panic pick.
    53:19
    I was channeling my inner Jonak. Yeah, this is where theme guesses get a little. Right. So I went ahead and went with the official designation on it. No, that was smart. Though Roller Games on IPDB is listed as sports, roller derby, roller skating, and licensed theme. Right. So they wouldn't have counted it as sci-fi. It was actually based off of a show. Right. And I never saw the show. So I would have said no on sci-fi on that, too. Yeah, but it would have been sports. So. And I guessed it anyway. So anyway, I deferred to the database's genre assignment. But that's why I hedged on. It's also why I hedged on fantasy. Because, again, it's not really an excellent ray that will turn you into, you know, it's fantastical.
    54:07
    Right. It's not enough that they classify it as a true fantasy game. Even if Game of Thrones didn't say fantasy, I would have said fantasy on it. Because it's so strong on it. But that was my logic on it. Nope, that's perfectly sound logic.
    54:28
    I actually worried... Well, worried's not the right word. But I wondered if because it was branded as Bally, if you hadn't sorted with WMS, you would have missed that that was owned by Williams. But you apparently. I said it by Williams all. Yeah. So it's like. So if you had said Bally or Williams or Bally Williams, I would have said yes to all of them. Yeah. Because it had the trade name Bally. Also, if you said Midway, I would have given that. Yeah. I'd say yes. Because technically they manufactured the Midway brand with the Bally trademark under Williams Manufacturing. I searched, I did William Well no, you did that part right When you started guessing System 11's I figured you had So for those that don't know The answer Was Dr. Dude and his most Excellent, and his excellent right Not his most excellent right It's one of the three often referred to As the party game series Dennis Nordman Did the design, it's a two flipper game With a ramp, it's got a two ball multi ball A couple of vertical up kickers spinner, habitrail, magnet. The toys include the Excellent Ray. So you could think of that as a sci-fi-esque device. There's also the Big Shot and then the Mixmaster, which was, I guess, supposed to be a blender to make drinks. I don't really know. But other than I knew that you'd played it a lot. I have played it a lot. It was one of those ones, I even looked at it, but I kind of took it out of my head like I should have done roller games, but... But, okay, well, maybe the game is hard enough as it is. I don't know.
    56:12
    Well, that was awesome. Okay, video games! Oh, okay, video games. Unless there was something else I missed in the OneNote. Nope.
    56:22
    No. Okay, video games. So, the only reason I was pausing was in case you had a game you wanted to ask me on. I didn't put anything together. I've been dealing with so much stuff. We bypassed almost all week. There's no obligation. I haven't. They, the listeners, are plenty amused already. Yes. Please write into EclecticGamersPodcastAds, gmail.com, if you feel I cheated Tony by not confirming science fiction on a game with light science fiction elements. I don't. I think it's fine.
    56:55
    I think I'm being picky. I could see where, again, that's why I hesitated, because my mind would have thought, I don't, I mean, the Ray. Also, if you feel the right in, if you were screaming at me at the answer, I would have done it. No, they don't. I've heard that from multiple people before. No, they didn't. They were probably, Game Show is a really good one to throw out there. You could have thrown out the, what, the Riverboat Gambler would have been another one. See, that's the thing is, even looking at the backlist of Riverboat Gambler, it's like, I think I might have played this. Todd has it. Yeah. Well, I guess I don't know if I've ever seen you play it, so I have to be careful. Just because Todd has it doesn't mean that I've played it. Police Force. Again, does that count as fantasy because it's furry cops? It's really just a cop game. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't looked that one up, so I don't know. So starting with the video game news, we talked about Zachary of Pinball fairly recently. I'm going to mention them here again. That's a virtual pinball platform with the old Zacharia tables. They have released a new update on Steam. It included a new remake to an actual game called Fire Mountain, which already was in the program. But the update also added some higher resolution to the back glasses. So if you didn't like how muddy the back glasses used to look, they're sharper now. And they also added some performance optimization. Also on social media, they did announce that they have reached 75% completion on the development of the new mobile versions of the game. And for those who have listened before may recall Google because of the nipples on Farfalla pulled Zocaria prior mobile app They were already in the process of making a new one though So they are three-fourths of the way there per their development timeline. So that's all I had on that. And then you had a couple, two or three games, I think, for us to go over. Oh, yeah, and there's actually a couple things that I added that's not actually in the system. I've just pulled it up while. Okay. It's not in the notebook. But let's open with the game that we still joke about talking about a lot, but we barely ever talk about it anymore. I know because of all the criticism. I know. So we're going to open with Overwatch. Because Overwatch has actually had some fairly hefty changes coming forward and with rumor mills of even bigger changes coming.
    59:12
    Probably the biggest change that won't affect actual competitive play, but it is a very large change, is Overwatch has added what they're calling the Overwatch Workshop. It is, I believe, still just on the PTR. I don't think it's gone live yet. I think you're right. But basically it is a scripting system, a simplified scripting system, that will allow people to make very custom game types that you can play. And it's so customizable to the point where you could even take the in-game assets and change the rules and change some settings and create entirely new heroes with the customization, with the abilities that they give you and such.
    60:02
    Even on the PTR, they've already turned out a lot of the different game modes, including some that should be fairly obvious.
    60:09
    Somebody quickly turned out a Battle Royale game mode. You've got to have a Battle Royale. Gun game, which is, for people who don't know, it's from Counter-Strike, and it's a game mode where everybody starts with the exact same gun and every time you get a kill, you change guns. Oh, okay. And once you go through all the guns and then get your final kill with the knife, whoever does that first is the winner. Oh, okay. In the gun game version I've seen for Overwatch, it's the same thing. Everybody starts as one hero. When they get a kill, they convert to a different hero and it goes all the way on and the final kill is a Torb Hammer kill. So. Shameful. It's shameful. To die that way, not to get the kill. It's great glory if you get the kill.
    60:58
    They've made, some people made joke ones. Some people are like, this is Spartamod, which is everybody's Zenyatta, and the only thing that works is the kick. But when you kick people, they go flying backwards, and there's a pit that has a little magnetic suction to it. So you try and kick people into the pit, and you can charge your kick up to kick them farther.
    61:23
    There is a Bastion spaceship mod where it's just Bastion, and he can fly, and he's in tank mode all the time. So you just fly around the map shooting at each other.
    61:34
    Some people have made a version. They basically made it 2D. So it's a top-down. So it's just a straight top-down view. Like a twin stick. Yeah, like a twin stick type mode. It's got issues because of the camera that they can do, but it's interesting. Somebody made a 2D volleyball game with it.
    62:04
    For those people who despise the fact that nobody will get on the payload, there's somebody who made a version that had a magnetic payload that pulls people in until at least one person from the team is on the payload then the magnet turns off otherwise it pulls people in and you can run away from it but the longer there's nobody on the payload the stronger the magnet pulls as it pulls everybody to the payload yeah I've seen some other quality of life ones that are designed to try and make people force them to cooperate more than they sometimes do in what we call ladder, which is when you're playing solo in the ranked in particular. Yeah. So there's a bunch of things like that. And who knows who else, I mean, what else we're going to see, especially once it goes live. I think it's a very good quality of life thing for people looking for something a little different than the normal modes that are already there. Yeah. So they also made some changes to Grandmaster, to Grandmaster level. So nothing that either of us have to worry about. No. You got moved up a lot. I've been in Plat once. I'm back in. I'm still doing my new season qualifying, but I'll probably be placed in mid-gold based off of where I ended last year. Yeah. My guess is I should be in wood. Yeah. So I haven't actually finished a competitive qualifier since like season three.
    63:34
    Well, you should be well-seasoned for Mystery Heroes. Yeah, because that's about all I play anymore. All I play is Mystery Heroes, and when it comes up, Mayhem. And some Capture the Flag. I like Capture the Flag. But for Grandmasters, they are now being locked down. They're only allowed to solo and duo queue. They're not allowed to queue larger than that. Right. Which is, from everything I've heard, is substantially reducing wait times. As it should, because they try and match the number of people grouped together, even in the lower tiers. Right. And it's also making, from some reports, a more enjoyable, less curb-stompy thing at high levels. Yeah. What's interesting to me is Grandmasters are only allowed to duo at solo or duo levels, but Owl team members are still allowed to go up to trios. Right. But if they're a Grandmaster, then... Right. And I don't think they all are, but I have only ever read that most Owl members are Grandmasters. Yeah, they aren't all. So, yeah, that's interesting. Though this does remind me, I did also see, it's not really an update, but it kind of is. There was a forum, apparently on the Blizzard forums, Jeff Kaplan weighed in. He hates Mayhem Mode and wishes he could take it out of arcade. Really? Yes. It was his creation, and he thinks it's so lopsided that it should only be – someone had asked why it only comes up every now and again, whereas Mystery Hero is always available. And he weighed in, and he said, well, I made that mode, and it's not a good mode. It's not a fun mode. It's not well-balanced. It should be a custom game only in his view. However, it's been in the game so long, for legacy reasons, they keep it. But he doesn't like that they choose to do that. but he thinks the fan outcry would be too high for him to pull up. Probably, because sometimes people like to play it just for insanity reasons, which is why I play it. It's not like it's the only thing I play when it's up, but I'll play it once or twice. I haven't played it since I had a 15-minute battle with the payload not moving in Noombani, and I lost. And I never played it again. I was like, this was stupid. I could have cleared three more games in this time.
    65:51
    So did you not have fun because you weren't having fun while you were playing, or did you not have fun because it took too long? It was just, it was both, I mean, because it was just like, everyone was playing these long, it's just not, it's not a well-designed game. Oh, it's not well-designed, it's not well-balanced at all. And so they, at that point, they had such a they still had the respawn advantage, and you couldn't out-class them, really, so it was all just, everyone had these huge hit points, I don't know, it just, overall, I was just like, why can't, I mean, I didn't want to throw and give up, but I also just wanted it to end. It was okay before then, when people had to run more, but it was not. I never went back. I hate it more than Capture the Flag, and I rarely touch that. I play Capture the Flag every once in a while, but I mainly play, like I said, Mystery Heroes. I'll do some quick plays now and then, but mainly Mystery Heroes.
    66:45
    Another thing, speaking of the Overwatch League, They had their first homestand last weekend. And from all initial reports, it went really, really well. Other than the blackout. Which wasn't their fault. It wasn't just something in there that blacked out. Apparently, like, the whole block lost power for some reason. I heard it confirmed it. It has set the current season two Twitch viewership record. Yeah. With, I believe, an average level of 165,000 people watching. Nice. Yeah. So, Overwatch is thriving. All you Apex Legends people can't kill it. Apex Legends has dropped off hard. Battle Royales do. This is how it is.
    67:35
    Yeah, no, but I think the homestand went really well for them. It was a lot of fun to watch. It was a lot of fun to see what paid actors they could find in Texas to fill up a stadium. Yep.
    67:46
    So, I think, I don't know, maybe them moving to their home cities next year, which is the plan last I heard, will work. I still thought that was a little early. I thought season three would have been a little early for it. I'm not concerned about them getting crowds. I'm concerned about what it will do to the players. Right. Because the travel schedule. This isn't like the NFL or MLB. This is cross-continent travel, I mean. Yeah, it is. From Seoul to Philadelphia, it's just, I just don't, to Paris, it's just not, I just don't think, they have to be very careful about how they logistically plan it out for the traveler, or else people are going to be living on planes. Yeah, they're going to have to set it up so it is not a, they get on the plane, they fly, they play in Philly, then they fly to Seoul and they play in Seoul, then they fly back to London to play in London. Yeah, stuff like that's not going to work. So we're going to segue from that to just a little interesting tidbit. This year is the 10-year anniversary of Minecraft.
    68:52
    It's actually kind of hard for me to believe it's been a full 10 years. I know. The game looks like it's 20 years old. I know. But that's what people love, and it's still hugely popular. Sure. The interesting thing is they're having a big press event on the 17th of May for the 10-year anniversary. Notch isn't going to be there. No. Which isn't a surprise if anybody's heard or seen him since he became the billionaire for Microsoft paying $2.5 billion for Minecraft. But he has not made himself well-liked online and on the social medias. He has turned into kind of a... PewDiePie? Yeah.
    69:32
    Well, there's something about those gamers. I guess if you have $2.5 billion, you don't really care. I suppose. A couple little snippets here.
    69:44
    Nothing that would really be too surprising to anybody. There's a new, the second DLC for Battletech is coming out on June 4th. This one will let you fight in cities and hide behind buildings. Okay. So it's adding. You should stream that. I should. I definitely should. I actually should lose my train of thought. You were talking about hiding behind buildings, and I just thought I'd throw that in. But yes, I should definitely try it. I got some pretty good numbers when I was streaming Battletech before. It wasn't bad.
    70:17
    Also, one of my favorite spreadsheet games that we've talked about, Rule the Waves, its sequel is coming out on the 17th of May. This one adds aircraft carriers and airplanes, so it basically creates a whole new flow and dynamic for the game.
    70:35
    That's the last of the notes that Dennis can actually see in the notes, because I added the others here real quick. Just an interesting tidbit thing that I saw.
    70:46
    Speaking of Kickstarters, earlier we talked about, and that's what reminded me of it, video game Kickstarters used to be a huge thing, and they're not anymore. They've massively dropped off. Okay. And the ones that do happen, they don't make the kind of money they used to,
    71:03
    except for this one, which is a porno game. No wonder you left it on the notes. One of the biggest Kickstarter's video game numbers. They have made over $2 million.
    71:20
    It's from a company that's never made a video game before. What they're known for is making animated porn videos. And they're making a video game now that is basically a knockoff of Mass Effect and XCOM. Okay. and it's got, you know, naked women and stuff in it. They made $2 million.
    71:47
    Okay, well, I mean, at least it's not like the digital remastering of Custer's Revenge. That's what I was really worried. It's like, you can have, yes, it's not only adult, it's also deeply racist. No, no, no, no. I mean, no, it's just, it's one of those things. It's just like, how is it that some of this stuff, you can't get any support for something, and then something like this goes enormous? It's just... And it's on Steam, thanks to Steam's new thing of allowing actual straight-up porno games on their platform now. How much do you want to bet that Epic poaches this? That would be hilarious. it would be hilarious. Oh, then it gets review bombed. It's so sad. But, uh... That does bring up a question.
    72:46
    How well, I wonder, how well do all of these, like, visual novel dating sim porno games do on Steam? Seeing as if you own a game, and you're friends with anybody on Steam, they know that you own the game and they know when you're playing the game yeah and I was just thinking about that with if you have discord installed discord doesn't say what websites you're at but it says whatever you're playing in steam it says sorry they're busy with this right now yeah so that's a whole little bit of just interesting of there are a lot well I guess the developers philosophy is probably that's on the player figure out.
    73:33
    Guess you're going into offline mode. Except when people still know you have the game. It's like, huh, Dennis has 565 hours in this cloud game. I just left it running.
    73:49
    I got called into work. I left it up. It was in the background. It was on the sixth monitor. I didn't know.
    73:58
    But you full cleared it. You have every achievement. Well, you know, I'm a completionist. I had to get all the endings.
    74:10
    It's an OCD thing. I gotta have all the endings. Yes, all the endings. The best one's the happy one. The best.
    74:20
    I'm sorry. That's all I really had. I didn't have anything new. I do have a non-pinball, non-video game segment. Oh. A throwback thing. A throwback segment.
    74:37
    Board game. Okay. Specifically, just an announcement to let people know and let people get an eye open and start looking out for it. International Tabletop Day is coming up. It's much later than it has been the last few years. it is on June 1st this year. As opposed to the last couple years when it's been like in April.
    75:05
    So if you go to tabletopday.com you can look up events happening in your local area. Yep. It's a big thing. Yep. I might actually attend one this year. Maybe. When's June 1st? Am I on call? It's all I ever seem to do anymore is work June 1st is a Saturday We'd normally have 4-3 Hey, I'm not on call that week I don't go on call for a couple weeks And then I'm on a call for most of June Hmm, okay So, yay! I'm living the best life The best life is a life that makes money Yep Monza Bonkaw and termites and broken dryers. Yeah. Oh, I forgot. I almost cut my fingertip off pulling the old dryer out. Wow. I was reached around, and I grabbed it, and one of their little vent fan rib things on the back was, like, razor sharp, and as my finger came across it, I sliced it deep, and I sliced all three of them. I was like, ow? And I was bleeding everywhere. So that was excitement. Yeah. Our intro was so short, I added it here in the end. That's fine. They really appreciate it. It's an extra. Most people aren't listening. It's an outro. It's an outro bite. Yeah, an outro. I don't know. Some do. Some say they really like the – especially as it's – the suggestion – they're always too nice to use the word – is improved. So I think they like the video game research elements that you're sticking in very deliberately now. I've had multiple people praise it. Sometimes they write in to me directly because...
    76:53
    Instead of just me just going, here's the video games I've been playing lately, and here's the this and that. Yeah. They like to hear about stuff other than what we've been playing, which I've been more and more just sticking in the intros. Yeah. Video and pinball. It's like, what have I been playing? Yeah. It's like, what did I last play? I played Sharky Shootout. You can go check it out on Twitch. Other than someone came in and said that my sound sync was off, and so then I turned off the delay on my audio, and then I went back and looked. No, I got worse. Then my mouth was way off. I need to have a delay on the microphone. 300 milliseconds may be a little too much, but it's pretty close. At zero, it's just like you're hearing everything before you see it. Yeah. It's weird.
    77:33
    Well, in two weeks, we'll be back. As a reminder, though, you can always reach out to us, Eclectic Gamers Podcast at gmail.com or visit us, facebook.com slash Eclectic Gamers podcast. We're available on Instagram, Twitter, and Twitch as Eclectic underscore Gamers. And that's it. I'm Dennis. I'm Tony. I'll talk to y'all next time. See ya.