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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 67 - Squashing Rumors!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 23m·analyzed·Aug 30, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Harry Potter praised but polarizing; Jurassic Park and Kong design deep-dive.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball hosts discuss Harry Potter pinball in depth, with Tom praising it as potentially better than Rush and a top-ten game, while Travis critiques its overwhelming design with eight movies crammed into one game, lack of immersive storytelling, and difficult scoop shot. The hosts also review Jurassic Park and King Kong (Stern), discussing Keith Elwin design philosophy and recent code updates.

Key Claims

  • Harry Potter could be better than Rush

    high confidence · Tom states directly: 'It could be better than Rush' after owning it for a month plus

  • Tom considers Harry Potter a top-ten game

    high confidence · Tom explicitly says 'I think it's a top ten game' and later 'it's my favorite JJP game'

  • Harry Potter games at Atomic location took 80 minutes to complete

    high confidence · Travis reports 'the game between both of us, it took, like, 80 minutes just to play it' with one game reaching over a billion points

  • JJP games default to two tilt warnings per game instead of per ball

    high confidence · Joel explains: 'JJP games by default, they give you two warnings for the entire game. That's it. And then you tilt. While every other pinball machine ever, you get it per ball'

  • Harry Potter scoop is difficult to hit consistently

    high confidence · Travis reports hitting scoop 'one for eight' and struggling with it; Tom acknowledges the difficulty

  • Tom will stream IFPA World Championship at District 82 in June next year

    high confidence · Tom confirms: 'Yes. There you go. And when's that going to happen? In June of next year for the IFPA World Championship'

  • Jurassic Park now has co-op mode that significantly improves accessibility

    high confidence · Joel reports: 'We streamed it the other week, and it now has co-op mode. And co-op mode is so great'

  • King Kong code updates include three New York City modes and treasure map features

    high confidence · Tom explains NYC modes, treasure map mechanics, and recent code improvements to Kong

Notable Quotes

  • “It could be better than Rush.”

    Tom @ early in Harry Potter discussion — Surprising endorsement elevating Harry Potter above one of Tom's previously beloved games

  • “Harry Potter has definitely put in my eyes a good light on Jersey Jack pinball that I haven't had for a long time.”

    Tom @ after initial Harry Potter discussion — Positive sentiment shift toward JJP as a manufacturer; potential marketing value

  • “It took forever. I think our game, too... over a billion-point game. But anyways, so the game between both of us, it took, like, 80 minutes just to play it.”

    Travis @ Harry Potter gameplay discussion — Highlights game length and complexity as potential operational concern for venue play

  • “I just wish that there was a little bit more differentiation of me knowing that I'm in a scene, me knowing that I'm progressing something like in the movie.”

    Travis @ Harry Potter rules critique — Core design criticism: immersion and thematic connection lost in overwhelming ruleset

  • “I'm not on board with having any movie or anything that has that many modes or that many movies to go over just because you're either going to leave too much out or you're going to stuff too much in.”

    Travis @ design philosophy discussion — Articulates fundamental design limitation for multi-movie licenses in pinball

  • “I would have loved to seen it just split up into maybe like the first three movies or something like that. And then the next year they come out with another.”

    Travis @ hypothetical game redesign — Suggests alternative product strategy for multi-movie franchises

  • “You just heard it here. Joel does not like Harry Potter.”

    Tom @ after Jurassic Park praise — Clarifies Joel's preference for Jurassic Park over Harry Potter despite overall respect

  • “I've really grown in my overall respect for Jurassic Park.”

Entities

TompersonJoelpersonTravispersonJaredpersonHarry PottergameJurassic ParkgameKing Konggame

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Harry Potter games taking 80+ minutes to complete at venue locations raises operational concerns for bars and arcades; affects table turnover and casual player accessibility

    high · Travis reports 80-minute two-player session and 20-minute single-player session at Atomic venue; indicates potential venue profitability issue

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Scoop shot difficulty (1 for 8 success rate for Travis; acknowledged by Tom) creates frustration barrier for newer players; feeds back on accessibility concerns

    high · Travis explicitly states 'that scoop for me fucking hard i could not hit it' and reports 5-6 consecutive misses; Tom acknowledges difficulty

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Fast return speeds on Harry Potter left flipper create execution difficulty; casual players unable to catch returns at speed

    high · Travis describes returns as 'way different' and 'impossible timing, so fast'; observes casual players whiffing at 105+ mph ball speed

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Fundamental design limitation identified: cramming eight movies into single pinball game creates impossible trade-off between completeness and immersion

    high · Travis articulates: 'either going to leave too much out or you're going to stuff too much in... there's zero way to do it'; suggests splitting license across multiple games as alternative

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Tom's perception of Jersey Jack Pinball improving significantly due to Harry Potter; states game 'put in a good light on JJP that I haven't had for a long time'

    high · Direct quote: 'Harry Potter has definitely put in my eyes a good light on Jersey Jack pinball that I haven't had for a long time'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.429

0:00
We're, we're, we're, we're three guys who like the talking ball. Three guys. We're three guys who put the play out by name. By their name. We're going to track down the talking ball. The ball. We call ourselves the talking ball.
0:17
Why are you doing that? We're different. I'm already losing it. What are you doing, Joel? What do you mean? Like Tom and I are having fun, and you're just staring straight into the camera, all stoic, like it's a mugshot, like you're a mountain man mugshot. You don't see the video, and I was getting the buttons all aligned to make sure we're good to go. I got it. Don't worry. You're focused. You're professional. Somebody's got to drive the bus, and sorry that that person was concentrating about driving the bus.
0:51
No, we're going on the bus. Tom, we've got to do Joel impression. Okay, you ready? One, two, three, go. Hey guys He went visual Yeah yeah there we go That's a good one You did good Tom That's perfect we got it Alright Joel you can start now Tom and I will just be here Welcome back everybody It's been a while But we are here we were waiting I don't know Star Wars is coming That's the joy of when you podcast like once a month You podcast something and then there's always big news So we're like, eh, should we wait now? We wait long enough. Whatever.
1:30
We're here. Let's take 30 seconds to apologize for not podcasting. We usually do that a lot. Let's just do that. We do. We're a very apologetic podcast. That's what the listeners want to hear about. They just want to hear us grovel to them. We do. Oh, so sorry. Oh, thank you. Thank you for clicking on it.

Joel @ Jurassic Park tutorial discussion — Sentiment shift after deeper engagement with game mechanics

  • “There were a lot of people when Kong was announced. We heard from people inside CERN. We heard people that had played us.”

    Joel @ Kong community feedback discussion — References early community sentiment about Kong's layout compared to Elwin's other work

  • “I am genuinely missing King Kong. The more that they've added to the code, the more that I just really hope I have another opportunity to stream it.”

    Joel @ Kong code updates discussion — Expresses desire to revisit Kong due to code improvements; potential content signal

    • Jersey Jack Pinball
    company
    Sterncompany
    Keith Elwinperson
    District 82venue
    Atomicvenue
    Eric Minorperson
    Carl D'Angeloperson
    Bob Matthewsperson
    IFPAorganization
    Chicago Pinball Expoevent
    Rushgame
    Godzillagame
    Jawsgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Avengersgame
    Triple Drain Pinball Podcastorganization
    David Thielperson
  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Joel's respect for Jurassic Park increasing after deeper engagement (tutorials, co-op mode); game climbing in his personal rankings despite initial mixed reaction

    high · Joel: 'I've really grown in my overall respect for Jurassic Park'; credits co-op mode enabling better engagement and learning curve

  • ?

    code_update: King Kong receiving meaningful code updates: three NYC modes, treasure map mechanics, improved progression systems; driving renewed community interest

    high · Tom details treasure map with golden arrows and cave shot; NYC modes offering choice between multiball/flip mode/single ball; mentions Carl D'Angelo streaming impressive gameplay post-update

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jurassic Park co-op mode successfully lowering skill floor and enabling deeper engagement for moderately-skilled players

    high · Joel: 'co-op mode is so great. It's so great... to be able to play the game together and allow us to get deeper into the game. It's awesome'

  • ?

    content_signal: Tom confirming multiple upcoming streams: Papa (Multimorphic), SLAPS (St. Louis Area Pinball Championship), Chicago Pinball Expo; IFPA World Championship at District 82 June 2026

    high · Tom lists: 'Papa coming up... St. Louis Area Pinball Championship... Chicago Pinball Expo... June of next year for the IFPA World Championship'

  • ?

    industry_signal: JJP employing non-standard tilt mechanics (two warnings per game vs. per-ball standard) that require operator reconfiguration; indicates design choice tension with community expectations

    high · Joel explains JJP default 'two warnings for the entire game' vs. industry standard; both he and Tom customize this setting immediately on new JJP machines

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Harry Potter lessons/modes criticized for being too generous (timer-based progression with points even on failures); diminishes player agency and challenge

    high · Travis: 'the game basically grabbing me by the collar of my shirt and dragging me to the finish line... Even if you failed it, you got points. Even if you didn't hit a switch, it would just keep going'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Harry Potter's mechanical design and rules implementation fail to reinforce thematic immersion; overwhelming visual/audio stimulus prevents player sense of movie progression

    medium · Travis: 'it didn't feel like that I was in the Harry Potter universe at times... the immersion of it... didn't feel like I was living the scenes of the movie at all'

    • 1:47
    Thank you. We're busy. Life is busy, but whatever. Hey, thank you for, once again, thank you for all the Patriot supporters we have for sticking through. Thank you so much for that. We were kind of doing our pre-recording meeting, and our agenda is wide open. We're just going to talk a little bit about a lot. Do we have to talk? Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit. You know what? Let's just start with Tom. Let's just get him out of the way. Here we go.
    2:25
    I got nothing. Wow. Are you going to take that, Tom? I'm doing my best, Joel. I didn't mean to get him out of the way. I realized that. That's what you said. What do you mean?
    2:40
    I said, okay, so here we go. Tom promised two minutes. I know my worth on this podcast. Let's see if we can get to the two minutes. So Tom is the only one of us that has a Harry Potter. Travis doesn't have access to a Harry Potter frequently, but Tom does. It's in his basement, and I will tell you from the behind the scenes, he's playing the heck out of it. So, Tom, I want to hear the extended, what is it? You've owned it now a month plus. What's your overall extended view of ownership of Harry Potter, thoughts, feelings? Dope. It could be better than Rush.
    3:17
    What? Wow. What? That could be better. What? It could be better than Rush. It could be better. Okay. That was unexpected. You know how much I like Rush. Yeah. Well, apparently you don't love Rush anymore, but you like him. No, I love it. He's falling out of love with Rush, Joel. Okay, go ahead, Tom. Rush came out of the gate, though, being held back by one thing. Raymond Davidson. Besides that, it had the opportunity to play a demo machine. I thought it was the Rush music, but... No.
    3:50
    Okay, tell me more about Harry Potter. I mean, what do you want to know, Joel? How is it better than, how has this gotten to where it is in your list of great games?
    4:04
    Like, there's some magic there. Let's just put it that way. Like, I like the shots. I like the flow of it. Well, let's focus on that then, mechanically. mechanically you know a lot of there's a lot of people that don't buy games based on theme they buy it based on the layout or code so let's break those down layout wise the more you've played it what do you love about the layout maybe is there anything you don't like about the layout uh i i actually like how the bookcase changes your shots and the the uh center ramp like it's always something different but you know where it's going to come from based on the lights on the play field. So staircase spinning and all that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And then, um, what about the fact that you don't have wire forms that are just gently leading the ball back to your flipper? You know, do you like that speed of that outlaying type of feed? Uh, it's a little different. It takes some getting used to, but I do like it. And, and Joel, the, the scoop is not the hardest shot in pinball. I didn't say it was the hardest shot in pinball.
    5:20
    Yeah, I did not say it was the hardest shot in pinball. Okay, so let's transfer over to code. Code, I mean, it's been a while since I've played it. Have they changed? What have you seen code improvement-wise or changes over time or not much? Or where you have code? Little bits and things. some of the movie scenes are starting to come out a little bit more. Like you can hear the audio and stuff. But I mean, there's subtle changes. It's not like huge changes. It's more like bug fixes and things like that. but I will say it's refreshing to have a game that's like actually mostly finished. True, yeah. Compared to some other games. Yeah, that's fair.
    6:22
    Even when I was playing it, you know, like right out of the gate, I felt like the game felt pretty complete. Now I know, what is it, Deathly Hallows, which is once you get all the horcruxes, that's like one of the- Yeah, I was so close one night to starting that. Okay. And, like, it was flashing, and it was like, shoot, the scoop. Oh, so then the scoop was hard to hit. Is that? No, I just fumbled.
    6:52
    From what? Because it was hard? Because it was hard to hit? The pinball, Joel. He fumbled the pinball. Did it go down the middle? Where'd it go? Oh, no. It went right down the middle. Oh, no. So real quick question on JJP games. Do you change the setting from number of tilts to ball or to game? Do you leave it as tilts per game? To ball on every one. Yeah, I don't know. For those of you that don't know, JJP games by default, they give you two warnings for the entire game. That's it. And then you tilt. While every other pinball machine ever, you get it per ball. and so that's one of the first things I ever change if you disagree with that write in to triple drain of gmail dot com that's the better option but it's a JGP thing it's like P3 like a bunch of scoops come up or like you know that's an innovation that needs to die immediately the best thing they do about it though is the fact that there's now in pretty much every JGP game there's some light somewhere that indicates what danger you're on. So it actually like visually without having to go to Instant Info you can see how many dangers you've used or not used which is pretty cool. But like if I'm playing a game and like I'm trying to save a ball in the beginning of it because I want to progress further in the game and now I'm pretty much in jail. Although I guess you can like get awards to like get another tilt back or whatever, but I'm sure some people like you, Joel, love it, but I don't really care for it. I'd change it. You know what? I'll even admit this. I don't care. I'll admit it. If I'm getting a game from Zach and it's brand new and I have to set it up, I don't even put the tilt bob in. I've just embraced it at this point. That's fair.
    8:51
    That's one more thing to add. Honestly, I get enough heckling from people that watch our streams that I suck. So anything that can help me progress deeper in the game, show more of the game, I'm all for at this point. By the way, how is your audio doing? It sounds real good right now, but I see what you're doing there. We'll get to that, Tom. Any other comments on – any other thoughts on Harry Potter?
    9:20
    I would just say to people, check it out. I mean, there is a lot there, of course, but I think it's a fun game.
    9:28
    I think it's definitely a fun game. I paused it. I thought I heard a pause. No, you said it's a fun game. I'm so sorry. I thought that was a good transition, so I clicked the button and I jumped the gun. I'm not going to swear, everybody. You were saying, Tom, it's a good game. It's a top in what were you – do you think it's a top ten game? I think it's a top ten game.
    9:50
    And now is a good time? Top 10 game Top 10 game, Travis I feel like the middle child right now Trapped between older brother and little brother Just squabbling Trying to be a good team We're trying to work well together You're like the dad Just let him fight it out We'll figure it out Unless somebody has to go to the hospital I'll break it up Would you say It's your favorite JGP game then? Yes, for sure I think Elton John's a close second But you don't own it Which I understand I don't And that's more I guess because of cost Although I might pick one up used to be honest.
    10:51
    Harry Potter has definitely put in my eyes a good light on Jersey Jack pinball that I haven't had for a long time.
    11:01
    That's a quote. They should market that. They should. Let me not because then it says that they were bad. But they should be proud. That's a good statement.
    11:11
    I'm not being a shill. I hate Wizard of Oz. Let's be honest. So, like, now that I said that, like, it's going to show up at District 82.
    11:23
    Okay. I'm excited for you. You're confirming here as the owner of District 82. You're being a wazin'. Right.
    11:31
    Honestly, I'm – Harry Potter was here. Harry Potter has left, obviously, but I do think about that game. I miss the way that game shoots.
    11:41
    I really enjoyed my time on Harry Potter. But Travis played Harry Potter the other day. Wait, wait, wait. Before we go there, I just want to say something, Joel.
    11:54
    In his regards to District 82, so I was at the summer pinball class. Joel, you can take off your headphones if you want.
    12:04
    I had so many people come up to me and were like, why aren't you streaming? And I'm like, kind of like, where have you been in the last year? Yeah. I literally had somebody in my group berate me.
    12:22
    Berate me because I was not streaming. They were like, hey, look, I drove 11 hours to be here. And I was like, and I kind of politely said to him, like, I'm sorry.
    12:41
    But that is not my fault. At least you didn't give him an angry sorry. That's good. You're polite about it. I really held it back because, like, I was biting my tongue. You felt like a dancing monkey at that point? Like, let me throw some ones at your feet, go scream. Yeah. I mean, I literally, I at least had 25 to 30 people come up to me and, like, what the hell? You didn't redirect them to the person that made that decision? I did. Okay. But, you know, it's just not.
    13:18
    Here's the real question. Will we see Tom Graff stream at District 82 again? Yes. There you go. And when's that going to happen?
    13:30
    In June of next year for the IFPA World Championship. There you go. That's exciting. Thank you, Josh and the IFPA for allowing me to do that. That's awesome. And what else are you streaming coming up? Oh, we got Papa coming up. Yeah. We'll talk about that a little bit later. What else do you have streaming coming up?
    13:57
    Slaps. I don't know what slaps is. It's the St. Louis Area Pinball Championship. Oh, that's your thing. Slap C, Joel. Geez. Yeah. I know you're a huge tournament player, Joel. You took 89th once at Cleapen three years ago. I get it. And Joel, what else do I have coming up streaming?
    14:19
    You got a hot tub, right? No. You go to it every year. Oh, you're streaming Chicago Pinball Expo. That is correct. Yeah. And if you want, I mean, Jared and I are happy to sit down and talk through the mics. We will dust off the booth for you. Dust off the booth. Looking forward to it. We need to get you two with Bob Matthews in the video. No. Yes. I'm going to. Yeah, I'm going to. So here's my problem with Jared. We're going to get that to happen. Are you trying to eliminate my viewers?
    14:51
    Jared is starting to get a little bit of confidence in, like, his, you know, like, he has an opinion. His opinion is valid, you know. So it's like he's starting to get that little bit of confidence of, like, I know a little bit about what's going on. So before he was a little more cautious or, like, didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Now he's just like, nah, I'll step all over him. I don't care. That's why we need him and Bob Matthews in the booth together. I think it would be freaking hilarious. I'm all for the entertainment. Well, we have tournament talk to do. We will do that.
    15:22
    Just to wrap up Harry Potter, though, Travis, you ever play Harry Potter? I did. I played two games on it. And tell us, what was your experience? It took forever. I think our game, too. I played two-player game. I won't say their name out loud in case they don't want to be revealed. But they are a listener of the podcast, though. And they had, like, a fantastic game, the second game, where they made it all the way through to, I guess it was Deathly Hallows or Owl Multivolve, something else. Like, there's all this stuff going off. It was, like, over a billion-point game. But anyways, so the game between both of us, it took, like, 80 minutes just to play it. And this is on location at Atomic. The game took freaking forever. And the first game probably still took 20 minutes, and that was just us flipping around, figuring it out. So, I mean, it's a long player. I enjoy the layout overall. There's some parts to it that I'm kind of like, okay, I'm not sure why this is here, but there's other parts that I'm like, okay, yeah, this is pretty sweet. Like I want to hit the shot over and over again.
    16:28
    In terms of the rules, I don't know yet. Like, I'm not, me personally, and this is just my personal preference, so I don't want to sound like I'm just shitting all over the rules, because I had a fun time. But my personal preference is not to have the game basically grabbing me by the collar of my shirt and dragging me to the finish line, which is what it felt like with the lessons and everything, because there was just a timer that just kept going, right? And even if you failed it, you got points. Even if you didn't hit a switch, it would just keep going. So it wants you to get through it, but I don't know. It's like I felt like I was playing. So I've never read the books. I've watched all the movies multiple times, my kids and everything. It didn't feel like that I was in the Harry Potter universe at times, right? Like the immersion of it in terms of like if I got into a movie, like nothing about that felt like I was living the scenes of the movie at all. It just didn't. Now in terms of because there's just so much else going on. Sure. The overlap. Yeah. Right. Everything's on top of each other, so it's hard to differentiate that. And there's so much input coming in, right, with the lights, the sounds, call outs. I have, like, the Mark Silk pinball caddy in my ear going off. I can hear him talking. There's just so much going on. So I don't know. I think it might be to where I just need to play it more to try to isolate those things and understand what's going on a little bit more. but we generally just found that we could just mow through the game by doing multi-balls, just letting the thing sack as they do. Now, I will say the upper play field, I really enjoyed that. I love how the upper play field shoots to where it wraps around up top on the ramp, comes back around to the flipper. You can hit, like, the little short orbit. Like, I thought the way that they did the upper play field was really awesome. The diverter I liked for the most part. There was only a couple of times to where it felt like sometimes when that staircase diverter would take the ball to the upper flipper, the ball would sometimes spin away from my flipper. Like it happened like 50-50 on the copy that I played. I don't know why that is. And sometimes it'd have like ramp rejects too that would happen. But, I mean, it's pinball. It's not game breaking or anything like that, just observations. And I will say for me, the scoop, kiddos, we're, you know, like mute me right now. if you got kids i'm gonna say it right now that's scoop for me fucking hard i could not hit it i was like one for eight it just took i mean i got dialed in a couple times but there was a few spurts to where it was like five or six tries and i just was not hitting it i had an easier time hitting the under the flipper shot like that shot it's easy because that's like you know that's a normal shot if you played star trek or anything like that ninja turtles so that shot i felt a lot better one, but everything else just felt good. The returns were way different, though. It's like that return on the left flipper, the timing is just impossible. It's fast.
    19:36
    Good luck. I've watched a few people play it after me that obviously were just kind of super casual pinball players. Nobody listens to this podcast. There's no casuals that listen here. Let's get that right. Right. Reference to two years ago. Tom knows what I'm talking about. Anyways, so I did watch the super casuals play the game. And even after the first warning, because I think the game, the software lets you know that this is going to happen. Right. Yeah. Post comes up. Isn't that what happens? So after that, it was just a hilarity of watching like the ball just zip right past them like a hundred and five mile an hour fastball. They're just whiffing on. It just goes flying right past their flipper. And I think it's just, it just takes some time getting used to, right? Because no wire form, if you don't know where the ball path is, it's screaming back at you. But, you know, other than that. There's a mode, it's like a looping something. It's like the Phoenix mode or whatever, where it's just meant for you to hit that. And it's like after the second loop, that ball is whizzing down the left side so fast. Yeah. I don't, there's no way. It's so fast. But it's, I don't know, it's kind of, it's fun. And the Death Eater shot, I had a lot more fun with that than what I thought I would. Like with the target that pops up, and if you lock it in there, it comes screaming back at you. I thought that was well done, well integrated. So that felt good overall. But, I mean, yeah, I can see why people enjoy the game. I mean, if you're a Harry Potter fan, I don't see why you wouldn't like the game. I would just like to see, I mean, I know this isn't going to happen because it's just the direction that they're going with the code. I just wish that there was a little bit more differentiation of me knowing that I'm in a scene, me knowing that I'm progressing something like in the movie, and I feel that moment. But I just, for whatever reason, the rules and the actual layout of the pen, they just don't gel in that way. And, you know, it just kind of is what it is, but I guess it's just something to get used to. The other parts of the game are pretty sweet, though. There's clearly, you know, you said it's a long player, But if you're trying to essentially cram eight movies worth of stuff into a game, like, you don't want it to be brutal, right? Because then nobody's going to see anything. But at the same time, how do you put all that without it and yet have every moment be, I don't know, special? There's zero way to do it. Yeah, there's just zero way to do it. I think a lot of it comes down to what is your overall strategy as to what you envision the game to be, right, from a game development. because your whole idea is you want a certain loop to happen. And you need that game loop to happen. You need to seriously compress it down to, like, hooks, right, to the first 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, minute, five minutes, because not everybody's going to get up there and play for an hour. You know, it's just a reality. Some people are just going to have a five-minute game. So how do you show them several movies in five minutes? You just don't. Yeah, you can't. Yeah, there's no way to. So, you know, I don't know. I think this game, playing it and watching enough streams of it, watching enough people play it, it's kind of solidified for me that I'm not on board with having any movie or anything that has that many modes or that many movies to go over just because you're either going to leave too much out or you're going to stuff too much in. I don't see any balance that's possible in the game of pinball. I just don't think the physical game itself is designed around that, unless you're willing to put an infinite ball saver on and somebody knows that they're going to be flipping for 30 to 45 minutes. At the end of the day, do you feel that Harry Potter could have been better if it was just the first movie?
    23:27
    I feel like Harry Potter, and this is like, again, guys, I think the three of us know this. It's licensing. It runs in all different directions. So, you know, the image that we have in our heads, what it could be is probably not even realistic anyways, because our imaginations has no budget, has no limitations. But if there was no limitations, nothing, I would have loved to seen it just split up into maybe like the first three movies or something like that. And then the next year they come out with another, you know, the next three movies or something like that. if manufacturing and license wasn't any issue whatsoever. Just because you'd be able to experience more, I think Harry Potter fans would be perfectly fine with that as well. You know, I mean, it's kind of how things are designed with consumption anyways, right? It's not like somebody's going to say, okay, I'm going to binge watch the Harry Potter series by playing all eight movies at the exact same time. We're going to work this out together. But that's the limitations of pinball, though, right? I mean, it's not just Harry Potter. We've seen that in other games as well. So just my personal preference. I don't know. I just want to enjoy the movies, Joel. I don't want to play pinball. I want to watch the movie on a big screen on a pinball machine. Well, let's use this as a transition then. One game you cannot watch the movie on is Jurassic Park. There are no movie clips. It's in the world of Jurassic Park. So I'm borrowing right now. This is a premium Jurassic Park by Stern. Keith Elwin game, just right off the bat, where do you rank in the world of Elwin? Where do you two rank Jurassic Park?
    25:10
    Top. It's up there. I think it's at the top. You think it's his best game, Travis? I do. I mean, I don't have it here anymore because it's time to move on. I have access to a bunch of games. But, no, me personally, I think it's one of the top ones. I think it's a great example, too, of what you can do with the property by focusing on the key elements of the property. Sure. But if we're comparing, you know, Jurassic Park to Harry Potter, it is a little bit different because, honestly, outside of Nedry, you know, none of the other characters were more iconic than the dinosaurs themselves. Yeah. So I would say if Harry Potter did something like that, it would be more about having the three core characters of Harry Potter, right, the three kids. and then making some new adventure with them. To me, that's the equivalent of it. Yeah, we've talked about that. I don't think you can get away with that with Harry Potter. It would be rough. I mean, there's plenty of people that are still upset that Jurassic Park doesn't have clips for the movie. I mean, there's a whole version of movie code that people are throwing around the Internet to put on this. But, Tom, do you think this is his best game? Do you think it's, like, top one or two? Where do you put Jurassic Park? I think it's like one or two, yeah. Because I really like Iron Maiden. Fighting against what? Iron Maiden. Okay. Maybe Godzilla. I mean, Godzilla's great too.
    26:41
    So Jared and I, we streamed Jurassic Park before. And honestly, we didn't love it. We didn't love it. And the reason being, we just thought it was hard. We thought it was hard. We thought the layout was hard. And then it's one of his most linear games. And it's just, it was something. And what I mean, I don't, that was our thought at the time. But it was like, if the game was hard, it's like, what are we experiencing over and over again? T-Rex multiball in the first one or two paddocks. That was just, that was our experience with Jurassic Park, the first time we streamed it. We streamed it the other week, and it now has co-op mode. And co-op mode is so great. It's so great. I love it. at least with our skill level, to be able to play the game together and allow us to get deeper into the game. It's awesome.
    27:28
    But now that we've played it more and we've gotten better as players, I really enjoyed my time with Jurassic Park.
    27:39
    You just heard it here. Joel does not like Harry Potter. I really enjoyed. Jared and I had a lot of fun with Jurassic Park, and he even mentioned it a few days later. He's like, I'm annoyed because I'm thinking about Jurassic Park now and why it's like, because for a long time, it was Godzilla was the one to beat. And then we had Jaws. And Jared's like, Joel, I want you to have Jaws. I want you to sell your Godzilla and get Jaws. Jaws is better. But we had such a blast on Jurassic Park.
    28:09
    That layout, as challenging as it is, is fantastic. It's so much fun to shoot. And then I did a tutorial for Jurassic Park. So I had to really learn the game, and that's when you realize just how brilliant that game is. The way that you can conquer it and the paddocks and the modes and supply drop and the super missile shot. It's just, wow. Like I've really grown in my overall respect for Jurassic Park.
    28:40
    Do I – I don't know where I'd rate it at this point. I would definitely put it above Avengers. And I don't know. I think personally, I think I would own a Jurassic Park before I'd own Iron Maiden, but that's mostly based on theme. I really, really enjoyed Iron Maiden as well. But still, where I'm, you know, the top two in my mind are still Jaws and Godzilla.
    29:05
    But I'm missing King Kong. I am genuinely missing King Kong. The more that they've added to the code, the more that I just really hope I have another opportunity to stream it. So you guys both have access to Kong all the time. Tom, you've got one right behind you. Code updates or changes in the game. Has your enjoyment of Kong gone up, down? Is it still pretty neutral? Where are you at on the game overall file? We'll let Tim go first.
    29:35
    Tom was called Tim the other day, and we just love it. Because I didn't bring my streaming stuff. How dare you. That Tim guy didn't bring that. Tim guy's an able. Let me tell you. Yeah.
    29:49
    Dick. Sorry, what was the question? No, Kong. Yeah. No, I like the direction it's going. There's more of the New York City events. There's the treasure map now is making sense. I saw Carl D'Angelo just annihilate the game on IE Pinball. That was, like, super fun to watch. Carl doing Carl things, yep. I wouldn't be surprised if it's Nerf before Papa, but...
    30:30
    Can you explain the treasure map? What does that add to the game? It's just, like, a bunch of different modes. So, like, basically, you have these lit golden arrows every time you start it, and then you've got to shoot those and try to finish it at the, what is it, the cave shot. Okay.
    30:52
    And it gives you points, a reward, a perk, or what? Points and perks. Points and perks, okay. Yeah. Nice. So, still the main premise of it, or, like, when you step up to the game, I know you got your modes and then I know what I really enjoyed about the New York City modes, though, is there's always yellow shots lit at all time and you're working your way up the building. So the further you go, once you get far enough, you'll start a New York City mode. The New York City modes, there's now how many in the game? Three. There's three. And it's really cool because you can pick like you can play one as a multi ball. You can play one as like a flips mode, kind of like Soul Gem and Avengers or like Terra Mecha Godzilla. Okay. Godzilla.
    31:44
    Or you can play it as just a single ball, which I kind of like that. Like, oh, I can decide what I want to do in these like three things. Yeah. It gives you options. It's kind of neat, you know.
    31:58
    There were a lot of people when Kong was announced. We heard from people inside CERN. We heard people that had played us. A lot of people were saying they feel that Kong is Keith's best layout. Do you guys agree with that statement? And what's – I don't know. Do you feel like that?
    32:18
    I don't know if it's his best layout, but I think, like, for somebody like Travis or like Carl, I think it's maybe one of like an easier layout to get down kind of thing. Like it's definitely easier than, say, Jurassic Park if you're not used to shooting either game. Okay.
    32:45
    No, I agree with that. Personally, I think it's his best layout that he's done just because it has the callbacks that I like specifically, like the Quicksilver shots, right, with the drop targets. So if you're not familiar with that, just look up Quicksilver pinball, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. So something like that I really enjoy. And there's just, I don't know, I mean, all of his layouts are usually pretty spot on. I mean, we all know that. That's baked into the cake with the Nolan design. But this in particular, there's just certain nuances about it that I can really appreciate, Like being able to sweep targets and have that go all the way around through a spinner to an upper flipper shot. Right. And then you just whip it around that biplane side ramp. Like that's a cool sequence right there. And I really like how he's created just a little mini diverter type shot to where it feeds the upper flipper pretty much spot on every single time. I think every game moving forward for all companies should have that as the standard because not having the keyhole there, right, with the ball there, like, just making it spin. You're talking about the wire form itself. Right, yeah. Instead of it being dropped through a hole, it kind of deflects up. Yeah, off like a rubber pad or something like that. I still don't even know what we call that. I mean, I wish there was, like, an official name for it. There probably is, and I just don't know. But whatever that is, I need to know the official name for it because, I mean, it feeds the upper flipper perfect. Perfect. Like the majority of time, I would say for me, it's easily above 95 percent success rate. And I played on multiple versions of Kong pros and premiums at multiple locations just to see. So stuff like that, it's it's nuances like that to me that really shows the thoughtfulness in a design that you're actually thinking of. OK, not just how does this one shot shoot? It's how does completing this shot? How does it lead to the next thing? Right. And then design's not necessarily just that. It could also be, okay, what happens when I miss a shot? Where is the ball going to go? And that's what makes the upper left side so great. That's its own little mini ecosystem that has that mini left flipper up there that, from a design standpoint, I love this. Like, if I ever did a homebrew or something like this, this is exactly what I would do with a flipper, too. the fact that the way that it sets at the angle it does, it almost sets like at a horizontal angle to allow for a different type of shot at that left ramp, that mini flipper up top. So stuff like that, that's a little bit different. That's different nuances right there that I can really appreciate. And then with the bridge, with the lower, sorry, the longer bird. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that, I think is pretty cool too. That's controllable. You could decide just to trap up with that upper flipper and let it go down, or you can decide to hit a ramp, you can decide to try to hit the drop targets. Like, there's little things like that. When you can take a design and give yourself options at different parts of a playfield I think stuff like that it you know I think it great choices no matter who designing it So for the future stuff like that is just a lot more exciting. So if I had to compare it to something, just to give an example of something that may not be as exciting, it could be something like how the upper area works on Mandalorian, right? That's on the trail to where it just goes into that one little area, you have a flipper, and you're spanning everything there.
    36:12
    Yeah, it's like, so I get it. It could work on some, but that's just to give an example of the difference when you really confine an ecosystem to just one area of a play field, just to do one thing, compared to expanding it a little bit and letting you do multiple different things with that. So that's the type of design I personally enjoy, and I don't like, obviously it can't happen on every game, but if it could, sure it'd be pretty cool so do you like the upper left corner of kong more or the upper left corner of harry potter more they both i mean you've gone 100 kong yeah and the reason why is because on harry potter you can like i got to one point to where i was just spamming the upper ramp over and over again for like seven and a half or nine million a shot and i just did that like 10 15 times in a row, which, you know, I mean, that's more of a software thing allowing you to do that, too. Points, yeah. Yeah, but there's nothing about the upper left area of Kong in which I'm just going to spam the same thing over and over again. I have to get back. I have to get the ball back there somehow, right? Because if I hit the left ramp, it's going to the right side of the play field. Yep. If I hit the drop target. Yeah. Yeah, right. If I hit the drop target, it's out. You know, that's what I like about it. It's like its own little mini play field, but you're in and out of it. It's so well designed. And that was something I noticed when I had Harry Potter, which was there were games that I realized I wasn't – you can kind of ignore the left ramp. You can kind of ignore the upper play field unless you need it for a mode shot or unless you need – you're wanting to qualify the Quidditch multiball at that point. Otherwise, you can kind of ignore it. While Kong, like, because that upper little left ecosystem that you're calling it, it was still ingrained in the rest of the pinball machine. you're still shooting around that area, but whether or not you're diverting to the upper left flipper or what. Like, you're still hitting the left orbit. You're still hitting stuff over there on the left. Tom, I didn't let you answer. Which do you prefer, the Kong upper left or the Harry Potter upper left? I'd say Kong just because it's – I mean, they're both different. But, yeah, I mean, for basically the same reasons Travis said. It's just – That's a – Go ahead. No, it's just different. Yeah, I think your comparison to Mando Pro is actually really good because I think Mando Pro, all the shots feel like they're close, right? The main shots are closer. And then he kind of did something in the back with the Grogu area, which is just in lanes. And then they did the mini play field in the back right. But those are so, they feel like separate sections of a game, while essentially Elwin has the same thought. Everything's on the same play field, but yet it can be its own thing, but yet it also can just, you can shoot all around it and within it. Yeah, that's kind of, yeah, it's like, yeah, exactly. It's like, it's a design choice that is the, it's an extreme balance, right? Like every designer has to figure this out. Like how do I make a full-size play field and get somebody to want to engage with that entire game and get it to where things don't feel like a grind, right? Because you don't want things to feel like a grind close to the start button. If you want a game to get grindy, it happens. Like if you play it long enough, of course, any game could be grindy because you're going for wizard mode or you're having to play the same mode over and over again, get to the same spot. But you want that to happen late in the game, like mid-game to late game. So if you can get a design and rule set to where you entice the player to experience different parts of the play field and you get them in and out, to me, that's the mark of an excellent thought process and an excellent design. And every designer is capable of it. We see it in different parts. All you got to do is just look at a play field and imagine it in sections. Like you got your upper left section, your upper right, your middle, your lower middle, your lower left, lower right. Like every pinball machine has this. Sure. We could look at Harry Potter. Harry Potter is the same thing, right? You have the upper play field, right, your upper left area. Then you got the lower right area because you got a scoop. You got a spinner that kicks back around to the right. You got an upper flipper that you can hit underneath. So there's little things like that to where you have certain design choices that entices a player and makes a player want to go for it. And it's enjoyable to do. Like, that's just, that's the balance they try to find. Now, I don't want to sound like I'm just glazing Kong nonstop. I will tell you straight up, we talked about this before. Like, I'm not a fan of the spider, like, at all, you know. Like, hitting that shot, like, it's kind of whatever. Hitting, you know, some targets right there with the magnet. Like, we've seen that before. It's just the spider coming down and hitting the ball, you know. I don't know if I'm a big fan. Or that gong. Oh, gosh, the gong. You know you don't like the gong. Hey, I don't mind the gong. I just don't like it when the gong Fs me over. Exactly.
    41:19
    But there is a middle post right there. So that's more, I know, that's user error. I know, I know. That's a great example, though. If we're thinking ecosystems and comparing it, like different areas, look at Kong and Harry Potter. You could even do Evil Dead, Harry Potter, Kong, right? Let's compare it to Alice in Wonderland. Sure, we could do that as well. Look at the upper right or the area around there. So what, Harry Potter, you have like a ramp that's a diverter, like the staircase that goes all around, right? King Kong, you have a physical mech there that's a gong, right? Alice in Wonderland, you have whatever over there. I can't even think of it off the top of my head. I'm sure there's something over there. It's under the upper play field. Yeah, yeah, you just don't know what it is. Yeah, it's there. And then, you know, and then Evil Dead happens to be a ramp that's there. That might go up, might go down. It goes up or down, yeah. Right. So now when you look at that and you're analyzing a play field or you're thinking about what's fun, now you've got to decide, is the actual physical nature of that, just as a whitewood, you don't think about the code or anything like that, is it fun? Yeah. Right? So a staircase, moving all around, sending the ball over, probably fun. The gong for a lot of people, probably fun. Not you, though. Not me, though, because it just kicks my ass. Not me. No fun. No, no. No fun. Yeah, no fun gong. But I get it, right? And then you look at Evil Dead. Some people might like that a ramp flaps open, catch it. Some people might be like, okay, compared to everything else, it's not really that much, right? So that's the key part of it. Yeah, you're focusing on one section of the game. Right. There's a lot of other mechs in Evil Dead. Well, that's the point. Good. So point out one mech that's on Evil Dead since we're going to compare all three. Like what's the one mech? I mean, I can say the hand, but you don't like the hand. Well, no, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I like. This is like everybody. Everybody has an opinion. Okay, shotgun, right? The shotgun shells. Okay, upper left-hand side. So now that means we have probably, what, drop targets on Kong, the Death Eater on Harry Potter somewhere right around there, and like two shotgun shells that you hit in. Yep. So it's like which one's satisfying to do the most?
    43:40
    I don't know. Right? Out of those? Just have a shot. Maybe the Death Eater is the most interactive. I would take that over the Sweepable Drops on Kong. Yeah, so how would you rank those three then? I would probably put Death Eater first, and then I'd do the shells second, and I'd put the Sweepable Drops third. Yeah, so there you go. Tom, what would you rank? I don't know. Tom's like, I don't know.
    44:04
    I mean, but you've got to look at the sum of all the parts, right? That's what the pinball machine – I mean, maybe I'll ask this question, because this, I think, is a hard question right now. If Twippy Awards were, if we had to vote right now, right now, and we'll just go. Sure. There would be drama everywhere, and everybody would be like, yeah. Honestly, if you think of this year, you know, you got Evil Dead, Dune, Kong, and Harry Potter. Those four, I mean, there's other games. No offense to the other games. But I think those four games all are really good, are really good. Yeah. Well, yeah, and Dune's the prime example. Upper left is what? The sandworm. Upper left on Dune, sandworm. Yeah. No, there's some really good pinball right now. There are going to be riots and fighting over this year's Twippies. I guarantee it. Yeah. I think it's hilarious every time. I just think what a great problem, right? What a great problem if there's that much good pinball right now. Like, yeah, they're all so different. There's something for everybody. That's the most important thing. All right. Well, we'll keep moving along. Tom, John Wick. John Wick has had a few new updates overall. Good updates, bad updates. Oh, I forgot. No, sorry. This is a good segue before we get off on Elwynn pins. I got to squash the rumor. Oh, yeah.
    45:31
    Okay. Yeah. Wait, wait. Do I have a drum roll? Hold on. Elwynn's calves are fake. No, I mean, edits his photos. He's been injecting stuff. Yeah, yeah. All right. I'll go ahead and squash this now because I keep seeing this everywhere. I see it on Pennside, Facebook. I've heard content people talk about it. You've heard this from a very reliable source. A super reliable source. A super, super reliable source. This isn't sarcasm. No. Some would say the most reliable. Okay. Elwin is not, and I repeat, not finishing Jack's game. He's not. I'm not going to say, like, what the theme is or anything like that. We're not talking about that. But he's not finishing the game. So everybody can get off that train. Okay. So what we're saying is it is. No, we're not saying that.
    46:23
    Stern has announced Jack Danger has moved positions. I don't know if we talked about this or not, but he is now moving to, like, the director of community. So theoretically, Jack Danger is no longer part of the game design team. So the question is, what's happening to his current game, his third Quest on game? And he's saying that he's still going to be involved. Well, there's a lot of rumors going on. Well, I think the words Jack said himself, like he's still going to be involved to make that game as good as it can or something. But the vibe is that he's not. And then a lot of the rumors are somebody else is stepping in. and the rumors are Elwin stepping in, Gomez is stepping in, people are stepping in to complete, to follow. And the only thing we're squashing here, all that rumor, I don't know. But what we are squashing is, no, Elwin is not stepping in to complete Jack Danger's third game. Correct. That's the rumor we are squashing. What he is doing is stepping in and completing everybody's game. We're going to get to Elwin the year now. So, yeah, there you go. Run off with that rumor. Put that on Facebook. So, Elwin did step in to finish John Wick. So, let's talk about John Wick.
    47:32
    John Wick Code, Tom. John Wick Code. What are your thoughts on it? Mostly good. I hate the fact that they took away. So, I was literally playing. I obviously hadn't played the new code. It was, like, just released. I'm playing it in a tournament. and I'm like, I'm going to, yeah, Joel, that's what I do. Okay.
    48:00
    You stream at home and I stream tournaments. No, you don't. Okay. You don't stream tournaments. I do stream tournaments. You just watch them. No. Okay. I was making a District 82 joke. I was just, I know. I was just at Pinberg. I was just at the beach. I know. I'm just no-showing it. I put my life on pause. I know you do. For two weeks. Mm-hmm. Oh, you did do Pinburg, didn't you? Yeah. At the same time. You didn't go home. Traveling the country.
    48:30
    Anyways, back to John Wick. So I'm playing the game, okay? Doesn't matter where I was playing it. I was playing the game. And literally, I'm like in multiball, and I'm like, what are you doing multiball? You try to add a ball, right? So I'm trying to hit these targets, and they're not lighting. they're not like I hit all three targets and I'm like what the shit is going on but but but imagine my frustration yeah yeah yeah and I'm like I can't add a ball what is going on so they changed that you can't add a ball or they there's no no there so the new add a ball is one of the modes which I can't think of right now. I think it's Taskacrew, right? I think. See, here's the other problem. I'm pretty sure it's Taskacrew. Yeah. What is Taskacrew? Is that the green one? The orange one. Okay. The far right, tied to the Tarasov family.
    49:41
    Right, which is the Tarasov family, which is labeled on the play field as Tarasov family. Yeah, but it's Taskacrew. If you're in competition, I think. Which is Tasker Crew. Where does it say Tasker Crew on the play field?
    49:57
    Well, Tom, it's on the LCD, which is also part of the 4K clips. You should be looking up there. 4K clips, Tom. Right.
    50:07
    Because when I'm playing pinball on a fast, flowy machine, I'm always looking at the LCD while the ball is in the corner. Did you not watch all the movie clips on the Harry Potter pinball machine? That's what you do. You know, you're supposed to be able to, you play and you look up at this thing, and you play and you look down, yeah. I don't know why you do this, but yeah. I look for the red and yellow inserts that are flashing. Yeah, the Gryffindor inserts for your essence. There's no modern pinball that's just modern pinballed out completely. So did you find your edible? I'm looking through the readme, and I'm going like, what is assassination? What is Tasker Crew? You know, anyways, so I went home and I looked at my game and I figured it all out. Anyways, but yeah, so there's actually, like Travis said, we'll just call it the orange mode to make it a little more simple. So the mode that has the orange insert, if you complete that mode, you get a add a ball. During one of the multi balls, each ball. so you can only use it once each ball okay so you use it like you hit the button or how do you get the ball you hit the button I don't know think like Star Wars yeah yeah yeah you gotta you know and here's the real question Tom is there any point to getting the add-a-ball on John Wick as it is right now with the way that the rules are is there any Beyond anything else, is there any point to prioritizing a mode just to get that perk? Not really. No. There's zero. No. Zero, Joel. I'm telling you. I wish that they would have the add-a-ball back onto the stand-ups. That makes a lot more sense to me. Did you tell Keith so he can change it? I did, yeah. But now all the modes, like, actually have not only a perk, but you have to hit, like, a certain number of shots and then go to the left scoop to complete it to get that perk. Okay. So, in essence, like, there's a point to this stuff, I guess. So, Munch's back, right? Does that make sense? The problem is, is it balance? is the question. For tournament players or for people that like score, we're ignoring Joel right now who just wanted to experience the world. Right. I would say no. It's a little unbalanced. I would agree. I think it's... What's the... Should we say it before Papa? Should we actually tell people? I mean... Well, it can be. What do I want to reveal publicly? I mean, kind of. So this is known. This part's known because Escher did this, right? I thought it was Wee Man. At Northwest Pinball Classic. I mean, he probably did, too. Like, this one's been known for a while. But so since each faction or each job is tied to a perk, right? A mode, right? Right. So the perk with Gather Intel, which is a ramps mode, The perk is that you add on 20 seconds to your lights out. Now, what is lights out, you may ask, Joel? That's a different mode. No, it's not. Shit. Okay. Lights out, is it lights out in one of the modes? You have to be in his house? Or it's a location? No. Joel, it lights out. It's been a long time. Just ask me what lights out is, Joel.
    53:51
    Tom's doing something. It's 2X Playfield. 2X Playfield, yes, yes. So it gives you 20. But how do you start it?
    53:59
    Now I'm all blurry. Thanks, Joel. So you start it by spelling Yaga. So that's on like the in lanes and out lanes. Right. But it acts like barricades where as long as you have the top insert lit, which is Baba, right? Because Baba Yaga is John Wick's character. If you have that B lit, which is the top insert on the right in lane, you can just keep feeding the crate. and that buck will kick it up, take it right back to your right end lane, which case, as long as that top insert's lit, then your bottom insert will lit. You use the left flipper to keep rotating that insert over. So you can light jog it pretty easy. Yeah, you just ski jump over, spam crate, come back. Now, here's the other kicker. You hit the crate a couple of times. What does it do to your mode, Tom? It does... It increases the time. Oh, increases the timer. Yeah, because we already started it. So it increases the timer to the mode. Right. So now you're taking the mode, you're increasing the time, and you're getting your 2X ready to go, your lights out. So from there, you hit the button, right, the action button. All the lights go out. It's supposed to be more difficult to know where the shots are because the lights are out. There's even a perk to have motion sensor to where you find where the shots are. The problem is on Gather Intel, you know where every ramp's lit. Like, you know the ramps are lit. so you just ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp, ramp. So you don't need the arrows to tell you the shots are lit. No. You just know the arrows are lit. Yeah, and the ball returns back to the flipper, and it's a 2X combo anyway, so you just keep spamming. So that's how you blow up the game. Oh, well, I mean, it's, yeah. Like, I've had games like over 500 million just in that mode alone, just doing that back and forth. Now, you have to hit the shots if you messed up, yeah. But the key is, too, if you want to get out of it quick, you finish, you know, gather intel, you get out, and then you could play whatever other mode you want, and then you're just going to be in lights out in perpetuity because it lasts 50 seconds. And you can't stack them on each other, but you can get three of the lights lit, leave the other one unlit for as long as possible, you know, if you can, and then you just keep rotating them through. And there's the motion sensor perch. Right, right. So if you want to grab that. So ideally, plus two, now the enemies, they will multiply your shot. so instead of blocking your shot, which it's helped you for, right, so now it's just like multiplier, multiplier, more multiplier combos. Travis, I have a question for you in regards to Wick. All right, let's do it. How the heck do you hit the gold targets?
    56:36
    Just pray. Are you talking about the one by the right ramp? Yes. At the side? There's two of them, actually. But there's no direct shot to it. Yeah, you just got to kind of hit it off something and it just ricochets on. But that's Wick. So this whole strategy we talked about in a premium, you can't do it. Pro, yeah, you could do it the whole time. Premium because that crate stays down. So you can't spam it as much. But the whole game basically is Cactus Canyon, like Joel pointed out. Joel is the first one to really point this out. It's basically the Cactus Canyon layout with some bash mechs on it. Like if you look at it and you lay them over each other, you're like, oh, shit. So if you ever are playing John Wick, you're like, this layout's hard. I don't know. It's too fast, this and that. And then you look over at Cactus Canyon, you're like, oh, I could play that all day long. Then just put the layouts on top of each other, and you'll be shocked how similar they are. And you're like, oh, okay, there's the shots. It's not as bad now. But I do think the code has made the game better. But like you're alluding to, you know, maybe the...
    57:42
    I think they're on the right track. The 2X is too achievable. It's too achievable, and I like how it's thematically it makes sense. But, yeah, when it's that achievable and you can just spam it the whole time, right? Right. I mean, I know people are saying it's like, let's just don't do it. But, you know, you've got to say you'll need the points. The inlanes are lit during lights out, right?
    58:09
    Yes. I'm pretty sure they are. But you can't stack them, though. What happens is if you have motion sensor and you complete Yaga, that's what will give you a motion sensor to where you can hit the button again during lights out. And that shows you like a area of shots or one shot. So you have an idea of what to hit. It shows you everything. Right. Oh, is it do that now? Like a couple seconds. Okay. So then there you go. So it's, you know, I think that the rule set's on the right track just from generally not having enemies block stuff. Because that part I've never understood. Because it's John Wick. Killing progression. Yeah, it's John Wick. Like, I'm going to kick enemies' asses anyways. Like, you look on the LCD screen, he's just murking everybody in sight. Yet the only thing getting murked is your score because you're not making any progress. So that part just never made any sense to me. So Joel's... I think it's on the right track. Joel's been attacking me this whole show I just want everyone to know this Joel, what?
    59:11
    attacking you? you did say we're going to get through Tom I missed I apologize Joel if we said that to our wives, my god Joel hey let me tell you about work, well let's just get through it no no no Joel, there's been a code update for X-Men It sounds like a great transition. Yes, you need to explain it. It's been updated.
    59:37
    X-Men, well, my question for Wick was, are you glad you've kept it? Are you glad you've kept it? Like, are you? Because there was a – I enjoy the game. X-Men were in a similar spot of people were dumping them. They thought the games were dead, but you've stuck through it. Are you happy you've stuck through the ownership of Wick? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I like how the game shoots. So that's a big part of it for me. And, I mean, I kind of figured eventually they're going to make the game rules better. So, you know, yeah, I'm fairly happy with it. I mean, like Travis said, I think there's some little tweaks they need to do at this point. But, I mean, and, you know, there's still, like, there's still no wizard mode or, like, any wizard mode, you know. But hopefully they'll get to that point. But the code's at .97 right now. Yeah. So I would assume that's, like, the next thing on the docket. Yeah. Well, maybe, I don't know, Tom, what you think about this. Joel, have you played the new WIT code at all? I have not played WIT. Okay. No. So then maybe Tom can answer this then. I just, me personally, I feel like the game still needs an identity when it comes to the rules, right? It's like, I don't feel. I think it's gotten better, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's gotten better. But what I'm saying is, like, it doesn't feel like, even through the different modes, like gathering intel and tasking your crew and stuff like that, because the game does play so fast, it's not necessarily that I feel like I'm actually, like, in a WIC action scene, like in any specific one. Sure. Right? It kind of just feels like it still all meshes together and it just has like a different light. So what you're saying, it feels like Harry Potter.
    61:25
    In a way. Yeah. In a way it does. Like it's just and it's hard to do. Like when a game plays so fast and it needs to return the ball back to you, it's not an easy thing to do. But it kind of feels like I don't know what the game wants to be yet. I don't know if it wants you to be in the John Wick world or if it wants you to really just focus on perks. Right. Because like they added in the perks. Obviously, they dangled these things for you to go after them to add on to the future part of the game. True. Problem is, is that because the game plays fast, it's like, how are those perks going to be beneficial to me at all? Like, that's why it leads to the unbalance, because then you want, you know, you're only going to go for the perks that gives you the best bang for your buck. up front, which is always going to be 2x playfield. I think the game's in a tough position because you had a coder on it that had one vision and he left and now you have another coder kind of coming into it. You know what I'm saying. What about adversaries being lit from the get-go and you get to choose your adversary that you fight? Why not bring that closer to the start button and then let you actually choose who you want to battle against. And maybe instead of perks from the factions, maybe it's something you could bring into that fight with the adversary. Like, Wick might have additional, like his health bar might be higher, or he might have additional weapons with him to fight something. I don't know. In the code as it is in the present state, do you think there's anybody out there that can get through all the modes and all the adversaries in one game? No. I don't either. I think it would take a world-class player. Do you think Carl could do it?
    63:23
    I think he could eventually. I think there's less than five players in the world that would do it. I 100% agree with that. So it's like, how are you going to experience stuff? So that's the key. It's like how do you want your end user to experience it? If it's a tougher play field. Yeah. I'm not talking about like, you know, your local bar that doesn't put a tilt bob in it and you can throw it at your feet. I'm talking like an actual setup game. Yeah. I don't know. Because I think some of the adversary stuff is interesting. The timer to me, though, is just hilariously too long. I think it's like, it feels like it's three minutes with like a 90 second ball saver. It's like, it takes forever. And I agree with the old code, but with the new code where you can actually shoot the shot to finish it, I think the timer's fine. Yeah. Are you talking about how you can just exit quickly? Yeah. I mean, you exit quickly, you get your perk. Yeah, that's true. Like the game wants you to play for a long time, but I don't know. I think the adversaries, they feel a lot more different than the jobs do at this point. So it's like I want to play adversaries. I enjoy those a lot more than I do the jobs right now.
    64:41
    100%. It's like, how do I do that? I want Wick to fight. Got to get those enemies. Hit the gold target. Yeah, exactly. So it's like maybe I want enemies that are wrong. Like, don't you have to hit the gold targets to add your enemies? I don't even know anymore. I thought it was that, but I think there's, like, an enemy that pops up on your ball one, and then ball two there's more enemies. I think it has something to do with, like, the more jobs that you play, like, more enemies show up. Because then once you play Tasker Crew, it gets hilariously, like, overpowered, at least it was before, because enemies would show up, and they were designed to block your shot then. So that hasn't changed yet, but I haven't played. I've only played one game on the news code, so maybe it's changed since then. We just have to ask the kids.
    65:31
    Well, there was a bug in there that led to billions of points, and I don't know if it's being addressed. Is WIC going to be at Papa? It is. I wanted to mention, I think this is the most we've talked about WIC. Tune in, Jules. Tune in. Yeah, I'm glad. You're going to see a lot of ramping out. That's what you're going to see because it's the safest shot, safest return. You don't have to worry about anything else. Yeah. I mean, you're going to see a lot of that. Okay. So X-Men. I'm glad. I'm glad that Wix is heading in a good direction. X-Men is – I am a happy X-Men owner is what I will say.
    66:09
    I've said it many times. X-Men is one of my top themes. Tom said he loved the way Wix shoots. I really enjoy the way X-Men shoots. Just playing X-Men, shooting the shots, I really have a lot of fun. Now, people have had mechanical issues with the way that their X-Men set up. I've done all the Stern official fixes. So there's a Stern plunge fix kit. I've put that in. The left flipper feed, it's like a metal rail. I've put that in. And then I have the Raiden mod for the plunge as well in the back. And between those fixes, I'm actually very happy with how it shoots.
    66:52
    Sure, there are still times where the plunge doesn't. I mean, I'm probably at 90-plus percent success rate on the plunge. But there are times it fails. And then there are times the midtown shot, the shot right up the middle, feels clunkier than it should, which is odd.
    67:08
    I do, you guys are going to scoff, but I actually got a set of precision flippers. I haven't put them on the game yet. I'm curious what doing that would do to the game, if it would, just that little bit of extra power would help it. But even if I don't, I'm really happy with the way the game shoots currently. If you're happy with the way the game shoots, why are you changing your flippers, Joel? Because you have that whole thing of what I don't like. You just got to put those one-inch ones in there. What I don't like is fantastic. Guess what I'm going to do? Change the flippers. Seriously.
    67:43
    My midtown shot. Easiest shot in the game. Right. I've heard from a lot of people that they can hit that with the left flipper. I cannot. On mine, it's just underpowered. It's copy dependent. I talked to somebody last night at League. They own an X-Men. They actually love the game. They enjoy it. And they have a pro, and they said they cannot hit that shot from their left flipper to save their life. It just rejects all the time on them. Now, the one I have at our warehouse, I can hit it from the left ramp, and everybody else can too. So I think it's just copy dependent. Exactly. Or precision flipper dependent in your case. Well, no. What I can hit it, and it's clean, it just starts up the ramp, and it's just like it needs that little tiny bit of extra oomph to completely start. Like I'm hitting it clean. It needs a performance pill to get it up, get it going. It needs that little extra bit of power, so that's where I'm curious. But I might play around with it. Yeah, I mean, why not? That's the only way you know. You can get it through all the way. You've got to play around with it. Code-wise, I'm enjoying the direction the code is heading.
    68:49
    I'm glad to see these little – I still think we're in a spot where they're almost kind of cleaning up what code was there or redefining the fundamentals of the code, the base of the code that's there. Where do you think it's going?
    69:03
    Well, I do think they're flushing up – they're making the modes a little more fun. I know future, currently there's only one future mode I know there's going to be multiple future modes There is? Yes It's not going to be the same future? It's not going to be the same future every time Like Nimrod's not in the game They certainly need to do that for the future I think that's my biggest gripe Right now in the new code The loop feels like Groundhog Day Over and over again I think Joel's going to be depressed though when it happens Well, I will say He's going to slap his new flippers on there and he's going to be pleased with punch. I don't know why I say, why I admit or say anything, you know. We're supporting you, Joel. It feels so supportive. We're supporting you changing your flippers on your game that shoots just fine. It's just here, Travis. He can do anything he wants. Exactly. I'm just curious. He can have it at five-degree pitch. He can have it leaning to the left. He can have the legs on backwards. He can do everything. Well, this leaning to the left, crap. All right. We'll talk about. I don't think it's leaning. I haven't put the level on it yet, but what they're saying, my Cactus Candy I streamed the other night. For the record, it wasn't us. It wasn't us. It was Carl Diesel. Are you a Carl fan? I'm just going to hate Mel. This isn't us. It's so just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do we, you know, you put yourself out there, right? Have you talked to Dry yet about your audio? Have you talked that out yet? We're getting to Cactus Candy. We're an hour and ten. Let's just finish that. everybody's having a great time. Everybody's having a great time, right? Everybody's having a good time.
    70:41
    I'm enjoying X-Men. I just, I do think I'm happy I jumped in when I jumped in. And I think, I do think the game is heading in the right direction. I do think the game is going to be enjoyed more. It is unfortunate to have a game that needs so much tweaking. I mean, I'm spoiled in a way where, you know, I get these brand new games, I unbox them, and I really have had to do very little tweaking to brand new games. to just get them to play really well. Like, they just play. They just play well. But this is a game that it's like, okay, the game plays, but if you really want your version of your game to play well, you're probably going to have to dive in there and tweak it a little bit. I'm going to have to step out for a minute. He's got to get his microwave installed. Yeah. He does. Now, most people would think, why does a dentist need somebody to install a microwave for them It above an oven It really intricate No it not coming to set it on your counter and plug it in No, no, no, no, no. I actually did that exact install for my parents a few weeks ago, and it's not easy. Yeah, go tend to that tomcrab. We'll be right here. We'll hold it down. We'll talk about X-Men while you're gone. Yeah. I wasn't talking anyways. It's fine. Well, we got him out of the way, right? We got him out of the way early. Have you noticed something, Joel? I'm making a pattern here. Every time we podcast. Yeah, bug guy. Yeah, he has something going on in his house. He's a busy man. It's like the freaking village people over there. To Tom's credit, he takes Fridays off because he works hard. He takes Fridays off. Of course, he would schedule the things on Friday. That makes sense. Do you do that? Do you schedule things to happen at your house on your day off? No. Because I work five days a week, but I work from home. So really, they can just come whenever. Yeah, that's what I do too. Yeah, you work, right. I mean, you know.
    72:38
    X-Men, I'm really happy with X-Men. Did you play it last night? I did. The new code, they've changed the multiballs. They've made the multiballs a little easier to understand what's going on.
    72:48
    I'd heard that they changed the UI. Did you notice that? They did. I guess for Save the City or something like that. No, that's what's funny is remember when Save the City originally came out, Save the City is all about hitting every shot in the game three times. When Save the City came out, there was nothing telling you you were doing anything, and then all of a sudden the middle shot was lit yellow. They changed that by adding the six shots that are needed in the upper right, but it was either gray, as in you haven't hit it three times, or green, you have hit it three times. There was no in between. They've now changed it where every time you hit the shot, it's like a progress bar. So it's like, oh, I've hit it once, I've hit it twice, oh, I've hit it three times. Perfect. So that's what I'm saying. Little things, little things that are making it better and better and better. But it's just, it's one of those things where it's very clear to me just to step up to a game and enjoy the way a game shoots. That's where, like, that's what I miss about, like, I miss shooting Kong. I miss shooting Harry Potter. Those are the things that I, like, that's the experience that I enjoy. Yeah, I mean, the games have to have a hook there somehow, right? It's got to either have an actual layout design hook, or it's got to have some type of software hook, right? Like just through Auditory or a live show, everything. Just because we're going down the line, my random side comment about Godzilla, I got my final Stumbler mod. I got my final Stumbler mod for behind. Is that a building? What am I looking at here? This is the building that goes behind the main building. Um, so now, yeah, this is the one that, uh, the, the ball shoots up through, not the main building that goes up and down. It's like, it goes on the back box, not the back box, the back panel. Oh, it does like a landscape. Yeah. It's a whole new, these things are incredibly well-made and beautiful. And this is the last one. So this is the, this is his, uh, the third building that goes in the back. So it's like, it's like a freaking dial. No, I don't think I could ever sell this one. $200, people. It's a beautiful, beautiful mod.
    74:57
    Okay, so I'm just very happy with where my games are at the moment. And one of the main reasons of that is Cactus Canyon. I got the Cactus Canyon upgrade kit. Huge shout-out to Josh Sharp.
    75:11
    Josh Sharp had two kits made. They're in production right now, but he had two kits made, delivered to him. He shipped me one, and then he's keeping the second kit to put in the game at Papa.
    75:24
    So with the kit, you get the saloon door mech, which has an attached new spinner to the left, and then you get a new little sign for the railroad lock sign. So now when you're locking balls in Golden Mine Multiball, you know how many you have locked based on what lights are lit. So it seems very simple. It's like, oh, you just add these mechs. But what I underestimated was how much additional code they added to the game. They tweaked some of the modes. They've added hurry-up modes. They've just added a lot. I mean, well, if you look at that little brochure, 10 new modes, 2 enhanced modes. There's way more animations. There's new call-outs. And it's crazy to me to have a game that I already felt was good, and then they just like fleshed it out even more and made it that much better.
    76:19
    How long did it take you? And now we're talking about the Lyman Sheets complete upgrade kit. The Lyman Sheets, yeah. Correct. That was finished by Josh Sharp. And I think, wasn't there one other person that was helping him with it too? I thought. Well, Josh Sharp didn't program it. He didn't do the actual. Right. That's what I'm saying. There's a whole team behind it. Well, there's somebody else named Sam. I can't remember the last name. Sorry. Starts with a Z. Yes. Zier. Z-H-E-R. Z-E-H-R. Yeah. He's, yes, I'm talking to him. The reason I'm talking to him is I found a bug. He's the main programmer. Like, he's the main guy behind the project. But Lyman wrote all the foundation. Lyman and Josh wrote the foundation of all the rules, what they want to change. And it's a lot. Like, they took a game. That's what I think is crazy. The Cactus Canyon was originally made, and the game was essentially delivered or sold incomplete. and I know that because the original code, you can play the original code in the game, and you realize how barren that original code is. I think it is kind of funny, though. Like, this day and age, it's like, yeah, Cactus Canyon released to incomplete code, and it's kind of like, I feel like that's what everybody says about every game. That's a big deal. I was like, I'm normalized now. But that was it. It was incomplete code, and it was not completed until CGC remade them, and then they completed the code. And what I mean, like, there weren't modes in that. There weren't, like, not every shot had a mode written. Yeah, it wasn't traditional, yeah. Now it's all there. But this, it, like, took it even further. And that's what I'm really happy with. The Saloon Door mech, what I love about it is I remember when I bought a Cactus Canyon, I mean, some of the feedback you talked about it, it's like, well, it's like, well, do you like Cactus Canyon? You're like, no, I don't want to just sit there and shoot part all day. Like, that was your vibe of the game was it was just hit Bart, wait for the ball to come back. Hit Bart, wait for the ball to come back. Over and over again. Not now. That's what this Lundor mech, the Bart shot was essentially a scoop that you were a trough that you were hitting the ball into, and then you had to wait for an animation, and then it would spit the ball back out. Now with this Lundor mech, the door stays shut. So it's now like you're just hitting, it feels like a stand-up target almost. You're just hitting a target, and so the game stays fast. The ball keeps moving, and then once you've hit the shot enough, the door goes up, and then you hit the trough and you get your animations. But you've accomplished something. And so I'm amazed at how changing that one mech, how much it's changed the overall vibe of the game. The game feels faster. It feels like you can do more. There's so many different things you can do at any time. Am I focusing on Barts? Am I focusing on the mode? Oh, I got saloon fight hurry-up going. Do I want to build that up and then cash out? Do I want to, you know, I got my combos. I got my, oh, quick draw is lit. Let me hit my quick draw shot. Like, I don't know. I'm just, I'm really happy with where the game's at and really excited to own this game. And I just, to me, I think Cactus Canyon is an undervalued game. There are so many out there right now for sale that are steals, in my opinion. And I'm not just trying to shill, but it's just, I've always thought it's been a good game. it's the one CGC game I'm surprised is cheaper than you know when you compare it to Medieval Madness and Attack of the Wild but it's the value of what you get I just there's some really good mechs in the game I'm such a sucker for the four drops that pop up that you have to use for gunfight and quick draw and now they use those drops in martial multiball and some other modes to kind of block your shots like I'll tell you right now if I ever designed the game. It'll never happen. But if I did, there would be drops in front of ramps or there would be drops in the play field. I just love that. The targets pop up, you've got to hit it, and then it goes out of the way. Just like the fin on Jaws.
    80:18
    I just love it. I love how they've changed it. It's like three drop targets on Halloween. No. Is that your inspiration? No.
    80:28
    How long did it take you to install the kit? A lot of people have asked that. It's supposed to be two hours is the estimated time. No, I would say for you it would probably be four or five. But for most people, Monica, I think Monica could knock it out in an hour. Honestly, it's not that bad. It's really not that bad. It just depends on how meticulous you are or, like, how – but honestly, I think it took me a little over an hour, but I was also filming it. I filmed myself through the entire install. So if I wouldn't have had to worry about lights and camera angles and all that and I could have just focused, I confidently think I could have done the whole thing in under an hour. Really? It's not that bad.
    81:09
    What does it involve? Do you have to actually lift up the play field? You do. Or do you have to unscrew a bunch of stuff off the top? Or is it a mix of both? It's a mix of both. You start on the top of the play field. You basically remove two rails. You have to cut out a switch. You actually have to cut two wires to remove a switch that was originally in front of Bart. Yeah, you cut that off. You cap them off. And you kind of just shove it under a ramp. And then you, like, thread some stuff under a ramp. The hardest thing is you've got to thread these cables down through a hole. You've got to thread all the cables down. That's some of them. They go up into the back box. You thread it up, and then you've got to line up the new saloon mech just right. And once you get it all lined up, you screw down four screws, and then you're basically done at the top. You lift the play field. You plug one thing in. Then you slide the play field forward, and everything else runs up into the back box, and you plug a few things in. And then you just kind of clean it up. use it diet or do it in clips and piece of cake. So honestly, it's not that bad. So here's my question to you, because I think you've been wanting, and didn't you mention you want a medieval madness? I'm going to, yes. Are you getting one? I'm planning on buying one, yes. Okay. So now that you've played both and you've played Cactus Canyon with the kit, which one do you think you would have more fun with over a full year? If you have them both side by side. By a mile. Yeah. I've heard that from a couple of people. And it goes to show you it's kind of amazing how if you just get the right rules on a game, the right feel on a game, and you just tweak something, right, that totally changes the complete complexion of a game. The topper, too. They've added more in the topper. Like the topper's utilized more. There's lights at the bottom of the topper, So there's different times where the lights will show a timer or your progression of shots. I mean, I just think they took a game that was already in A and they took it to another level. But I will tell you right now, yes, I am planning on getting a Medieval Madness Merlin Edition just because I was like, I really think for the friends and family, right, you know, I just think that game is going to be well enjoyed or loved. But my initial thought was like, I have Cactus Canyon. I will enjoy the code. and then when it's time to get Medieval Madness, if I decide Medieval Madness is the game I want, I'll sell Cactus Canyon. But I'm really, and maybe I'm just in the honeymoon phase, but I just really don't see myself selling Cactus Canyon at this point. Like, it's really just a great game. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. There's a lot of games out there right now because I think that, like, I'm looking at the kit right now. I mean, yeah, it's what, like 10 modes? and extra modes attached to it and everything? Well, the best way to look at it is now on the plunge. The plunge has changed into the hurry-up mode that you can do. Bella Bart, when it comes to the Barts, there were only four in the game. Bella was always on the back glass. Bella is now in the game. She herself doesn't really change. It's just different call-outs, different art. Saloon Fight is a really cool hurry-up that you get based on the spinner. So it's really for points. If you're looking for progression, you don't have to do anything with Saloon Fight. But it's just another distraction. as in it's like, oh, I have that going. Should I stop what I'm doing right now and focus on building up that jackpot and then cashing out? Gunfight, the logic behind gunfight has totally changed. Previously, you could promote from, like, sheriff to deputy or deputy to whatever. The goal was always to get the marshal. In the original code, I don't think it never did anything. But now there's marshal multiball. There's a marshal. Once you've progressed to marshal, you can start it again, and there's a mode, and if you get through that mode, you get to a multi-ball. So it's another essentially kind of mini-wizard mode that's built into the game that's really fun. And so there are times that I play and that's all I'm focusing on is progressing up to Marshall. I'm not worried about modes or Barts or anything. Well, I say that to have the ability to upgrade, to be promoted, you have to win a gunfight. To qualify gunfight, you either have to complete a mode or beat one of the Bart bros. So it's like you still have to do that. But then you see gunfights lit, and it's like, sweet, here's my opportunity to be promoted. Gunfight is also where a lot of the points are. Gunfight will bring in the points of whatever you did to qualify gunfight. All gunfight is is it holds the ball, it puts up one of the four drops, and you have to hit it. So it's kind of a one-shot. So that's what I'm excited from a PAPA standpoint. There's a lot of pressure to hit that shot. and you can build the value of your gunfight by, let's say you complete two modes and a BART before you play gunfight, well, the value of both of those two modes and BART have been brought into gunfight. And now that one shot is going to be worth all that.
    86:04
    And that risk-reward is awesome. There's a new video mode, the Shootout 2 video mode. Showdown, that mini-wizard mode has changed, which is a lot of fun now. showdown happens once you've done all the quick draws. There's a gunfight ball save on the left. Once you've been promoted to deputy, that'll be lit. That's a fun another situation of, oh, I drained out the left side. Boom, it pops up. All four drops, one of them is green. If you hit the green one, your ball is saved. Otherwise, if you hit any of the other ones, flippers die, your ball's over.
    86:36
    Frank and beans has been added. Drunken multi-ball has been added. That uses the beer target, the beer sign target, which was really underutilized in all the other versions. But now the more you hit that, you can get to those modes.
    86:48
    Saloon Party's there. Once you beat all the Bart Bros, Martial Mode was added. And then High Noon, the final, final Wizard Mode, they fleshed it out. That before was kind of a joke. Right. So, so much more. So much more in the game. It sounds like because, what, it's like at a price point of $12.49 or $12.50, something like that. Oh, if you have Cactus Canyon, in my opinion, it's a no-brainer. Yeah. Like, it's a no-brainer. I know it's still $1,200, but it's a no-brainer. Well, no, it still sounds like, because you can find an SE around for like $6,000. They're out there. So, I mean, realistically, considering that you could, if you're in the right spot, right time, you could pretty much have this kit and an SE with not too many plays on it for less than $7,500. For the cost of a Stern Pro. Yeah, it sounds like that's a pretty good deal. There's so much more in it than a Stern Pro. Are you talking about just mech-wise? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mechs, I really like the build quality of it, but mechs, I mean, yeah, there's a lot in this game. I think it's a fantastic game. I've always been a fan of it once I got it. This was one of the games that I remember when I streamed it originally. I was just like, oh, I'll give it a shot, and then we just really loved it. And it's made Jared and I, we've had a lot of conversations. Like, honestly, with all the new artwork that's in the game, we've talked about this so many times. And I just, that artwork makes me happy. The DMD tot style artwork. Yeah. It just makes me happy. And I can't say that about really any of the LCD artwork out there. And maybe it's because it feels different. It feels different than a video game or something that we look at every single day. Yeah. I think really what you're describing, I go through this too, to where, like, pinball is still pinball, but then sometimes pinball doesn't feel like pinball when you're looking at the totality of everything. Like, so for me, no matter what, it's like looking at an LCD screen, it's kind of, it's modern pinball. But then of course, you know, in my game room, I have a bunch of EMs and solid states and I love playing the Valley Williams game. So yeah, I'm super partial to that. And I don't mind like the enhanced DMD, like the super DMD or whatever you want to call it. Like something like that, I'm fine with. But yeah, it's, I think too, if you're, it's just interesting to see where Cactus Canyon has gone. because it came out, what, 1998? Yeah. It was like a little over 900 units released. It didn't really do that great. It got shut down early, like I said, incomplete code, all that. And then the remake was, what, August, I think, of 2021? So it's been out for four years. It's been a long time. And now this kit is just now getting out. I know. It is wild to see, like, just the trajectory of everything, like where everything's gone. And I kind of, I mean, obviously there are certain circumstances to where this got delayed with, you know, with Lyman's untimely passing. But it just makes me wonder that if something like this would have been attached to the project from the get-go. Because remember, when it was first announced, they announced the rule set changes and all that coming. Like, I don't remember if they had it exactly as advertised as, like, just the kit itself. But I remember that they said there was going to be enhancements coming. Yeah. Well, when you put Lyman's name on it, we know. And that's, I remember a long time ago, Tom, I remember saying, Tom, like, hey, Tom, are you thinking about getting a Cactus Canyon? Because I wasn't on board when the game was announced. I played it. I just, and Tom was like, if I got it, it would be because Lyman. Like, because there was immediate faith in Lyman, Josh Sharp, that if these two are going to attach their name to a project, the code is really going to be fleshed out in a way that's going to be really fun. It's going to be tournament friendly. and it's just really stuck to me that's where to me listening to you guys talk about John Wick I love it that you guys are that passionate about code and scoring and the way to blow up a game and tackle a game I just don't, that's not the way my brain works, I just don't care I don't care about who has play field I like just pinball is two ways And I think a lot of it is like, and we talked about this before. To me, a large part of my enjoyment of pinball, too, is exploring. I like getting to wizard mode. So getting to wizard modes means you have to do a lot of tasks to get there. The score, in general, does not matter at that point. So that's a lot of fun. Like Attack from Mars, getting to rule the universe. You've got to do all these different tasks.
    91:21
    So even Jurassic Park has something similar to that, to where it has five different wizard modes, I think, with it. But you've got to do certain things to get each wizard mode, right? Play so many control rooms or beat so many paddocks. And it's just more task-based. So I think, you know, there's a lot of ways to approach pinball play, and I think that's what makes it most exciting to see, you know, if you want to break down a game like you do a game of chess to where you're like, I'm going to hit these first five shots or it's going to lead to these next ten shots, you could totally do that. every game you could map out the exact shot sequence you need to do to get to the exact score you want. You can absolutely a thousand percent do that. Does everyone do that? No, that's probably less than 1% of all players that actually do that. And probably less than 5% of players even think about that. You could even do that. Right. Cause a lot of times it's just hit a shot that feels good and there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely. And I think, I think having games that, and that's why I talk a lot about exploring a play field. Like you need a rule set that gives you a reason to explore the entire play field. Because a rule set, there's two things really that will totally guide a player through a game. It's either going to be your rule set because you have a light flashing, you got to hit this shot, or you got to do this task. Or it's going to be a shot that's just simply fun to hit. the key is just meshing those two things together that's i mean that's really the key yeah you know not not everybody plays for score i would say less people in pinball play for score than the people that do oh i mean i yeah i think that's the way it is well i even just on this podcast i know there are people that glaze over when tournament talks start happening or like it's just it's or just yeah how do you blow up this or that a lot of people i mean the way that i view things is even the tutorials I film, it's all just progression. How do I progress through the game? Task-based games that show me to get to this, you have to do X, Y, and Z. I really latch onto that.
    93:27
    It's needed because the majority of people I talk to, the majority that I talk to, I cannot stress this enough, cannot, and this is no knock against them, this is like what they experience, what they tell me. They cannot get through the first five minutes of pretty much any game. Like getting to the second mode and finishing the second mode of a game is super foreign to them. Getting two multiballs in one game, super foreign to them. So the idea of lining up all these stacks, that's a zero starter. That just won't happen. I don't care about, oh, you don't want to start that mode until you bring this in. It's like, no, I don't. I'm going to start the mode. But I just, I don't know, Cactus Canyon, once again, I mean, I've met people that just, they love, they're super passionate about pinball, but it's almost like they don't care about modern pinball. They just love the Bally Williams era of pinball. That level of complexity or simplicity, how you look at it, is right where they want to live. And I will say, I mean, the way my brain works, I like some of these super complex rule sets and realizing the thought process behind all those. I have a ton of fun playing those games, but when I just come down and want to just play pinball, most of the time I like my brain being off. So what keeps you moving forward? Satisfying shots, kinetic satisfaction, or just the simplicity behind certain games. I mean, honestly, one of the games that I miss is Monster Bash. Like, Monster Bash, that's a game I've had. I streamed, and I've beaten it. I've beaten the game. And yet, that's a game that it was just fun to step up and just play. Step up and play. Simple to understand. That's what I like about Total Nuclear Annihilation. You don't have to overthink anything. You just play the game. But with that said, I got Godzilla on the other side. Super complex. If you want it to be. It doesn't have to be. You can just play the game and fight some guys and rip some spinners. And I don't know. That's what's fun about pinball, right? You can approach the game any way you want, right? It's kind of like, I think if you have a super deep slash complex rule set, it does give them some, I guess, lateral chance to be able to have somebody just play it at a surface level, and it'll be fine. Whereas if you put out something that's super shallow and everybody gets through it, then you're risking the longevity of the game. People can accept that on an EM or a solid state. They can accept a shallow rule set then. But for whatever reason, if you put a modern game, you put an LCE on there,
    96:09
    God help you if you have a shallow rule set. That happened to Munsters, right? Everybody went nuts about that. Which I get, but I don't know. Pulp Fiction isn't super deep. It's not.
    96:22
    It's mostly a single level and a half, right? I really had a lot of fun with that game. But it was task-based. It was task-based. You had five tasks or whatever. So it's what do you want to focus on? What do you want to do? And Josh said it. He said that was something he learned from Lyman, that if, like, to get to high noon, you have to complete five tasks. But Lyman said you only have to make one of those tasks hard. The other four, make them achievable. You only have to make one of them hard. And I know in, I think it was in Pulp Fiction, to get to the final, final wizard mode, it was like you had to get a super jackpot in briefcase multiball or whatever. or whatever it was, or you had to get to a certain level. That was the hard one. All the other ones, like, you should theoretically over time get to, and that's what excites me about Cactus Canyon, that dangling that carrot. The hard one in this now is Showdown.
    97:12
    Showdown, to play Showdown, you have to complete all four quick draw events. Once you've done that, you start Showdown. Showdown, the way it plays is it starts as a two-ball, multi-ball. All four drops pop up. You have to hit all four drops, and then all the shots are lit for a jackpot shot, and you have to hit one of those. Once you've hit one of them, it'll kick out another ball, but you have to keep at least two balls in play. So you have to keep a two-ball, multi-ball going. But I think you can get up to, like, three or four balls, but then all four drops pop up again. Once you complete all four drops, then all the jackpot shots, except for the one you hit, are lit. So it's like you end up having to hit every single main shot after completing the drops, and then once you've done that, then you have to hit Bart to kill him. Um, that's the hard one. That's the hard one now. And I beat it, which is crazy to me. I think it was crazy to Josh. Josh Sharp was watching. That was crazy to me that I beat it on stream. But the fact that I beat it gives me that feeling of like, I beat that one. So now that I've done it once, now I just need to get that perfect game where I get all the modes beat. I get all Bart's beat. I get my 10 combos and I hit mother load during all. And if I can do that, yeah, high noon. I use right there. And that's like energizing to me that it's possible.
    98:30
    Yeah. And it's important to see rule sets going that way as well, because I think that puts you on a solid ground to build up and to get players to want to engage in that. Right. You can have it super shallow at the very beginning. Make it easily understandable. You got your bozo multiball that you can get too quick. You want action to happen quick. Right. You're pushing it quick. Sure. And then you can get more depth later on as you go. You can make things a little bit more complicated. That's why I've always been a big fan over, like, level one, level two modes to where it might get a little bit tougher or you could have some sort of risk-reward. I think, and I'm not saying, like, Keith is the first one to do this. That's just the one off the top of my head. I like how, like, King Kong, the New York City modes, they have the multi- or not the multipliers, the modifiers now. We talked about that a little bit earlier. So something like that, I think, works really well to where it's kind of this is the super extreme balancing act we talked about. Like, how do you weigh out getting an earned perk by the player compared to something that the player can just have a choice to use at the very beginning? Right. So imagine like those modifiers. Yeah, the player has to earn those modifiers in order to apply it. And that's kind of what Avengers Infinity Quest was. You had to earn the gems. You had to beat it. Earn the gem and where do you want to put it? Right. And that's where people's minds just exploded. They got in their own head like, I don't know what's going on. I don't want to put it on the wrong spot. That was the worry, right? Like, I just don't want to put it in the wrong spot. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of, yeah. And that was the exact opposite to where you had to earn it and then you could decide. Like, in theory, that should be an excellent mechanic. But then what you find in practice, when you have players that may not be elite level flipper skills or even average flipper skills, which is perfectly fine, that means that their choice in doing that, it's going to be very hard to earn that. Compared to like New York City, you earn getting to the New York City modes and then you can just decide right off the bat, how do you want to do this? How do you want to modify something? And I think that I find that very fascinating with a rule set. If people can start implementing that more, I think that that adds on to a lot of replay value as well. Oh, 100%. Yeah, if you have a mode tree and you're like, yeah, I can turn this into a two-ball multi-ball or I can turn this into a time flipper mode or something like that. Like, I don't know. I don't know how hard that is to program in software-wise, but it's fun. That balance, and we've talked about this so many times, the balance of replayability, but yet so that means you need to have complexity but yet you can't be too complex because then you overwhelm you know i know my brother's initial impression of harry potter was too much it's too much he just couldn't it's like where do you even start where do you even start you're drinking from a fire hose but once you realize oh there's actually a lot of logic there so it's you got to have that yeah but you don't you also don't want to have a game where it's like well clearly the the only way to play it is to do this the and then all of a sudden you have a game that that, sure, it may have a ton of options, but if you ignore all of them and you're only following one path, then all of a sudden the game feels really shallow or it feels just like lazy. And the way you eliminate that completely is to have task-based wizard modes. Like that's the easiest way to eliminate that because then you give a reason to do everything. Yeah. Like that eliminates that. With Cactus Canyon, it's like, oh, shoot, I'm one Bart away from Bionic Bart. Like, yeah, I'm going to focus on that all of a sudden. Or, hey, I'm only one shot away from starting my last mode. That takes me to Stampede. Like, I'm going to focus on that. Or it's like, man, I just played Stampede. I drained. Let's start up another game. Okay, instead of focusing on modes this time, I'm going to focus on just progressing towards martial multiball. Like, that to me, I love it. I'm just – this isn't new. I've owned Cactus Canyon for a while. I loved it before. The kit has added even more to love, and I'm just – I'm really enjoying where it's at. Now, with all that said, there is a problem.
    102:36
    If you watch my stream, there's an audio issue. We don't know yet. And I say we as in I'm working with CGC. I'm talking back and forth with them. I don't know what it is. You read Pinside, and there's plenty of people that think they got it figured out, but I don't know what it is. And what I mean by that is there's a crackling, or it seems like there's a clipping of there's like a max volume situation. And so we got a lot of grief on the stream because of the audio. I understand.
    103:09
    It's not the speakers. What I mean by that is I'm doing direct capture. Whether or not I do direct capture straight off the PCB for the audio or whether or not it goes to the speakers, the cracker is still there. It's not volume specific. If I'm at volume one or volume 10, it's still there. It comes through both the back box speakers and the cabinet speaker. So I really do think it's software related. I'm talking to the main programmer of the game. I've sent him a bunch of stuff. He's on it. He just, we do think essentially every audio clip has, when you save the audio clip, you set it at a standard volume, and then those audio clips may overlap. And so does the combined audio clip possibly peak or be more than the onboard amplifier? Maybe. I don't know. But my view is there's some people that are pissed because they think this means that the Cactus Canyon kids are going to be delayed even more until this is solved. That may be true. I don't know. But that's the way it is. You waited four years. What's another year? Just wait again. It's fine. Don't come out. At this point, I would rather people get the game and it'd be great. And the other thing is it could be maybe my board is blown or something. Maybe the amplifier part of my board, I don't know. But I'm working with them. We're trying to figure that out. The other bit of grief that I was waiting for Tom to get back on, but Carl, what pissed me off was Travis was like, I'm watching your stream now, and Travis, you immediately go, something's up with your left flipper. And I was like, there's nothing up with my left flipper. I've played this game for hours. There's nothing wrong with my left flipper.
    104:41
    And? I looked at my flippers last night, and on the play field itself, there are two holes to show you how to align the flippers. my left flipper is not aligned at the same spot as the right one.
    104:57
    And it just really makes me mad that you were right, and I don't know how to feel about it. So I do need to adjust it. I don't think the – I haven't looked at the bushing yet. You think the bushing may be cracked too. If it does, I just don't even know anymore. Here's the great news, though. Nobody else watching even noticed. Yeah, but you noticed immediately. Because I pay attention to pinball, Joel. I would claim that game for hours. And it shoots great. And apparently it's just a millimeter or two lower. And it's like, oh, God. So dropping that down a little bit will probably make hitting the right ramp a little easier, which is the hardest shot in the game for me. So it's annoying, but I can swallow my pride. I can say, Travis, you were right. Good job. You just got to put on precision flippers. No, no. It'll be fine. Let's do that. Game shoot's great. I don't know.
    105:53
    Maybe it's because I streamed in 1440p. That's what it is. It was the high res of the pixels, and you could see the flipper.
    106:00
    But, yeah. But things are good there. I was still waiting on Tom. You know, we're an hour and 45 minutes in. Well, we've got to talk about one thing before Tom gets back. We've got to talk about Star Wars. Yeah, there's a new game coming out. That's what I was waiting on, Tom. Fall of the Empire.
    106:14
    I've heard some people say that you could take that one of two ways. Fall of the Empire. Like somebody, oh, look at that. Oh, look at that timing. Wow. Here he comes. Wow. That's all we had to do. He was like standing up to the guy. No, no.
    106:31
    We just said, we're like, hey, we've been waiting on Tom, but we just got to get into it. We talked a lot about Cactus Canyon. That's what you missed. But here we are. Star Wars. There's a new Star Wars game announced. Yes. Fall of the Empire.
    106:45
    Do you care? do I care there's a new game or that it's both yeah true we want to hear your true unfiltered thoughts I mean wait time out first off how's your microwave is it great uh it's okay it didn't it didn't exactly it fits in the hole but the trim didn't exactly fit so we had to use the old trim just send me videos and I let you know about the alignment yeah it like such a pain in the ass but anyways Tom he was right about my cactus canyon flipper It was misaligned
    107:25
    That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to tell anybody. I'm sure Carl's right about your level, too. If I... Okay, enjoy your crappy trim on your microwave, Tom. Thanks for being back.
    107:39
    How's the audio? Audio's good. Audio's great. Fall of the Empire. With Spike 3, because that didn't confuse everybody seeing that on the teaser trailer. Right. For those that know, they care. For those that don't, they go, hmm? But nobody knows what Spike 3 is entailing. So, like, it's just kind of like Spike 2 is. Exactly.
    108:06
    Yeah, yeah. All the Empire. As a casual, as Travis would put it, do you think a casual cares about Spike 3? No. Not at all. Like, I had to answer so many questions. Only people watching this podcast care. I am pumped. I personally, I'll go out on a limb and say right now. You just brought that HDMI out, don't you? What I'm saying right now, I am more excited about just Spike 3 than I am Fall of the Empire. Okay, but what are you excited about? I think we need to ban Spike 3 from, like, talking about it. That's what I think. I don't know. It's the same situation of... But Joel doesn't even know what's in Spike 3. But that's what I'm excited about. I'm more eager to see what Spike 3 is. I want to see what the screen is. I want to see what is new to the game. I'm more excited about that than I am whatever the layout of Fall of the Empire is. People are, like, going nuts over this, and I guarantee you, they're taking it somewhere in their heads. They're going to build it up so much There's going to be three LCDs There's going to be a riot Keith Owen has taken over Keith Owen's taken over all of the Spike 3 games I heard a rumor He's going to make the game amazing He obviously made Spike 3 Yeah, for sure He's already working on Spike 4 Here's one thing I don't understand about Some pinball people Like, you're Some people like their imaginations just run wild. Like, I want to see the ball explode. I'm like, what the hell are you thinking?
    109:47
    They're going to have different color balls. Dude, Tom, I had somebody text me and they were irate about the teaser. And I couldn't understand why. I'm like, it's just a teaser. It's fine, bro. And he said, I cannot believe that they're not using the main characters from Star Wars and they're adding somebody named Spike 3 to it. Oh, no. No way.
    110:11
    No way. So you know what I did? I was like, I know. I don't know why they're doing that. It's crazy. Yeah, obviously we have no idea, but we know it's called Fall of the Empire. Yes. We're assuming that they're going to take this to, like, an original.
    110:30
    I think it is. I think we have a. We think, but we don't know. But I assume by having a different title than all nine Star Wars movies that this is going to be something different. The animations and the cartoons and all the stuff that's out there. There's no video game named Fall of the Empire. There's no other cartoon or TV show named Fall of the Empire. This is the problem with trailers because I just saw Ralph just go like absolutely ballistic. Oh, did he get mad about it or was he happy? I hadn't seen it yet. No, he was kind of like, what's going on here? Oh, yeah. I mean, you've got to be careful with your teasers because people are going to dissect it. And if you don't send them the right, like, all marketing is is pushing somebody's eyeballs a certain way and pushing their thoughts a certain direction where you want them to. Right. So, if I look at the teaser trailer, it tells me, like, if I see Fall of Empire, Spike 3, as somebody in pinball, I understand what they're wanting to get. As somebody out of pinball, right? Right. I don't know what all that means. I just know it's Star Wars. But if I'm not in pinball, I assume that it does have to do with the main character of Star Wars. If I'm not in pinball, I assume that. Who's the main character of Star Wars anymore?
    111:55
    Fucking Jar Jar. I don't know anymore. There's too much. But still, like, you know, it's just it depends who your avatar is that you're speaking to. Now, all of us as pinball people, we already know Star Wars exists in 2017. We know that game exists. Everybody knows that game exists. So we know in our minds what it should be according to what we've seen. so it's easy to come up to the conclusion that this is like something totally different because we get no hints whatsoever of main characters or anything like that which there could be there could not be we'll find out and you could say the same thing with Harry Potter I mean it's such like it's such a huge theme that it's really hard to please everybody with the game. It's impossible. Yeah, honestly, if we go back and we look at Stern's last Star Wars game, I think Dwight did a fantastic job from a code standpoint. I think there's movie clips, there's moments, there's really, really good, but yet everybody hates the layout because they just think it's barren or it's just like there were so many people, there's like Star Wars, why would I not buy it? It's Star Wars. It's Star Wars. why would I not buy Star Wars but unfortunately it's not the game that everybody owns I think it's a really difficult task, obviously they did Mando just a few years back which once again they had a ton of movie clips they had voice actors I think Mando is a great game but it's still some people don't love it because of the layout and what not so it's a tough uphill battle right out of the gate I just, when I read Fall of the Empire, to me this is, I think it's going to be like Jurassic Park. It's going to be in the world of Star Wars, but maybe you're a Jedi. Maybe you're, who are we? Is there going to be, instead of just Nedry, the one character? Now, let me ask you this. Do we have Jar Jar? Do we have somebody, one character in Star Wars holding our hand? Let me ask you this, like going off what you're saying here, Joel. Okay. would you guys be on board with, and again, this is just me speculating. I don't want anybody to be like, oh, he knows exactly what's going on. It's me speculating. Would you guys be on board with this game being in the world of Star Wars to where you have all the main characters but you, yourself as the player, are playing a brand new character? And this happens to be some side stuff that goes on during main parts like huge battles. You could actually have some interaction.
    114:40
    Possibly. You could have been one of the Jawas that pulled Boba Fett out of the pit. I mean. I want to be an Ewok. Yeah. It's really hard. You could be thin now. You could be like the little ball that like rolls around. BB-8. It all depends on the presentation, I guess. You know. Yeah. I'd be curious. I think. I mean, something like that could be cool. Well. I mean, it works for the video games. You say predestination. It does.
    115:12
    We kind of elaborated with that with Harry Potter, like the whole Hogwarts game, where you're a wizard and you're in a wizarding world. And I don't personally know if I would have liked that if they took it in that direction. Right. So what do you think? Yeah, I mean, what if you're like a stormtrooper and you're helping their rebellion all of a sudden? Okay, if you do anything like that. What if you're an Ewok? Ooh. What if you're an Ewok? It could be that. If they're not going to be pulling movie clips, then let's look at Stern's animation styles, right? You have Avengers, which is not good, which is basically they were given a whole bunch of 2D graphics that they just kind of did motion animation with. Not good. That's on one end. And then you have, like, the Turtles stuff where it's like, okay, we'll 3D animate everything, but their quality of 3D animation in Turtles wasn't the best. So I don't want to see – I mean, they're pretty good. They don't 3D animate humans really anymore because you get a weird Uncanny Valley.
    116:19
    So I don't think – Are you saying you're a Wookiee? Maybe that's it. No, yeah, it's just all aliens. I don't know. I just – I don't know if they're going to do 3D animation. Then you have Foo Fighters, which was all like hand-drawn animation, which was really great. But I don't think that fits this type of thing. Yeah, I just. So what? I don't know what. I don't know what material they're going to be bringing into this. For me, personally, and I don't know if that's what Joel is alluding to, but I don't like a lot of the games where it's like, choose your character and then experience the game.
    116:53
    You don't like? I mean. Yeah, I get you. Why do you not like that? Like, I don't know. I don't want to talk against that, but I want to know why you don't like that or why you don't enjoy it as much. I just don't like, I feel like it's, you're like, I don't know how to describe it. Is it like if everything's a circle and then you have a square and you're constantly trying to fit it into a triangle type situation? Kind of. Yeah. No, Joel, what that means is because you're picking from like four different things. Yeah. Like, we're talking about the modifiers. The modifiers are cool. We talked about this a little bit earlier. Like, it really works for Turtles. Like, I don't mind if it's Turtles. Turtles, Game of Thrones.
    117:39
    Game of Thrones, you got to. Yeah, you pick the house. You pick your house, I guess. I mean. D&D, you pick your character. Well, think of, like, Pirates of the Caribbean, Jersey Jack. Yeah. All 20 characters.
    117:52
    You pick one of two or something. Yeah. I mean, do you think, oh, what if they do that for this game? No. What if they do that for Star Wars? That's what I'm wondering. You could finally shoot first as Greedo or whatever his name is. Well, okay. Hey, let's take a step back, though, and remember when we were there for D&D Day and they talked about, like, how many artists. You add characters, you're adding artwork. You're adding so much more custom scenes and displays and whatnot like that. I mean, we've heard from many people that D&D, the amount of art that was needed to complete that game is more than a lot of other games. And I don't think they're ever going to do that again. So I just, let's, you know, let's set realistic expectations on. Oh my God, Joel, 15 characters then. No, I, no, no. Okay. I think if they do any characters, I think you're looking at like four, four below. I think I would think if you put out a star Wars product, You're putting it out because you want to reach retail. There's certain themes that transcend things, right? This is the way it works. Like Harry Potter should be one of those for Jersey Jack. And so Star Wars should be that for Stern.
    119:08
    Star Wars, I know you talked about it a little bit earlier, Joel, about the sales of Star Wars. I guarantee you it did well. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been on the line for several years. It did very well. Yeah, it came out in 2017. When they hold it, when they put it in the vault, everybody is going, all the distributors are going, why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? Now it makes sense. Because there's a new Star Wars game. Now it makes sense because there's a new show. So what I'm getting at is I think it will do well out of the gate. Now the real question is the longevity of it is, is this an actual Star Wars game? Are you in the world of Star Wars? Do you interact with the actual main characters of that world? That's the most important part. I think we are definitely in the world of Star Wars. Yeah, right. So John Borg showed Jabba the Hutt on one of the streams. He showed it. It's like it's going to be on there somewhere in the game. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he showed it. Like it was on their socials and everything. Like during one of the Deadflip streams that he did, he held it up. It was like a Jabba the Hutt. It's like a skull. I don't think it was a mech. It was like a skull. It was a skull. Okay. Yeah. So that right there tells you there is a character. We're in the world. Yeah. And we know the timeline about, right? So, you know. So are we a bounty hunter? Is that it? I mean, what if it's just, I mean, what if it's just a pin in which they go the exact opposite from what I was talking about earlier? Because you put too much in, like too many movies. But what if it's something that allows, it's like the history of Star Wars from like episodes one through six or something like that. to where they really key in on the Skywalker saga, and they just totally ignore the last three movies that have come out. And they might not have Rogue One involved in that, or maybe they do. Maybe they do something like that. But that's the thing, though. I think if we were tapping into any movie, it should have been in the trailer. It should have been the teaser. But, hey, it's a tease. And we're supposed to get a trailer on Tuesday, So if you're listening to this podcast, any time after next week, you're going to laugh at us, right? Because we don't know. We really don't know. But what do we know? We do know John Borg is on design. Where do you guys – is John Borg on design? Is that exciting? Is that middle of the road? Is that disappointing? I'm not trying to say anything against John Borg, but John Borg – like, all designers have a flavor, if you will. I like John Borg games. Yeah. I enjoy Walking Dead, Tron, Rush. I probably enjoy Rush more than Tom does now, I think.
    121:44
    Metallica? I like that layout. So, I mean, we can sit here and guess all day long, right? But it's, you know, I don't know. It could be whatever.
    121:54
    I just have nothing. It could be John Borg has two Flipper games. He has three Flipper games. He's got fan layout games. He's got some that aren't fan layout. So he's been around a long time. So this layout could be a lot. I would ask, because I haven't looked, what is the general perception of people? Because you mentioned Ralph had a reaction to the trailer. What's been the perception of people that are paying attention to this type of stuff? Are they excited about it? Are they more excited about the Spike 3?
    122:24
    Are they like, another pin? It's like fatigue. I don't know how people are truly reacting to it. I don't know either. I didn't listen to Ralph's thing.
    122:38
    I just think, I mean, if we talk about Scott from Loser Kids, he's a huge Star Wars fan. But he's like, you can tell he's almost like bitter or not like annoyed that the old Star Wars, in his mind, isn't good enough to own. And he owns a lot of games. So I think there are people that are huge Star Wars fans out there that they're like, here's another shot. We have another chance. Hopefully this one's better. and right out the gate coming out with The Fall of the Empire, which seems to be an unlicensed, or not unlicensed, but an unthemed type of thing, it already feels like we're like, oh, this may not be what we want. It's almost like a Disney ride instead of pinball. Yeah. That's what it kind of feels like. So we're probably going to have some unique characters here, or this may be completely, you know, we worked with Lucas Films to, no, Lucas sold to Disney. We worked with Disney to write a new story that fits within the Star Wars universe. you're a bounty hunter and you are working with blah, blah, blah. I don't know. We're going to have to wait and see. But that's where I'm saying because of that, I like John Borg. I have turtles. But most of the time his layouts, like I'm not expecting, no offense, John, not that he listens, but I'm not expecting to see some crazy revolutionary layout. Like Elwyn usually comes in with some crazy. What do you think it will look like? I want to compare this when it comes out. It'll probably be three flipper.
    124:04
    And I don't know. Are we doing another, you know, we got different mirrors, whether it's X-Men or Tron or Rush or Turtles. It's just like kind of the same, just flipping it back and forth. I'm guessing we're going to have some loops. I don't know. I just think we're going to find out in September. That's all I know. Yeah. I do assume from a level up standpoint, I have to assume that there's going to be some type of leveling system for, like, Jedi that goes beyond just hitting stand-up targets. Because in the 2017 one, it's just hitting the stand-ups, right? Become, like, a Padawan and a young lady and all this. I feel like I've set my expectations for this game not low, but I don't have – like, Harry Potter. Harry Potter was rumored for so long, and you said, you know, so many people on the Internet, their minds ran wild about everything that Harry Potter could be. And that was Jack doing, too. Because Jack was like, don't buy anything else. I know. After the Avatar thing. He's like, don't buy anything. Wait till this. But this is more just like, I'm not setting really any expectations. I'm excited to see what it is. But that's where, like, I have set expectations for Spike 3. I have set goals on what, or like, my mind is wondering a whole lot more. What do you think that's going to be? Like, what do you truly think it's going to be? We know the screen has changed. And what I'm hearing is the change, there will be people that love it, and there will be people that won't. So, if the screen has changed, right now we have a whatever size LCD screen is on a normal stern. If it's not that, did they make it smaller? Highly doubt it. So did we go JJP, now 27-inch, boom, most of your back box is screen? I don't think that's going to happen. I would be surprised. My hope is give me this screen. Give me a stretched screen. Give me something that's different, something you give me a stretched screen. That's what I want. Now, I'll tell you right now, Stern says, hey, we're going to DMD Animations. everything's dots from here on out, that way they can get over licensing and they don't have to deal with that. It's not going to happen, but I would love it. I don't know if there's a company out there that's ballsy enough to revert back from LCD to that. But it's so beautiful. It's good art. Anyways, okay, so let's just say it's happening. Star Wars is happening. It's coming. But I don't know. Spike 3 is kind of happening. Spike 3, not all Spike 3 apparently is on this game, but some of Spike 3. But it's in the trailer, so it's like, I don't know. I hope somebody explains to me when it comes out, like, oh, what's missing? My guess is that something probably, I'm guessing kind of expression lighting will, there's probably a new version of Expression Lights, but it's unfortunately not going to be in every game. So it won't be in Star Wars, but maybe whatever the next game is, if it's a music pin or a game that does work with the Expression Light system, that's what we'll see going forward. That's my guess. But I'm expecting to see something different with the back box, different video or different display, different speakers, different something. That's what I want to see. So other things we can mention real quick.
    127:47
    Predator. What? Yep. Predator is there. We got some weird tariff stuff going on. We got some weird sales stuff. None of us are planning on buying it. Let's wait and see. I'll probably stream it if that gets won. That's Predator. Alice in Wonderland. Alice in Wonderland is here. we have heard some people of that have played it and the feedback let me just read it I won't say who it's from but it is somebody that we do appreciate and respect the words they said do do do do do do do it's worth it let me just let me it was come on where's it okay The words that were said were, what a shit game. That was it. That was all. That was all that was said. Are we talking about which house are we talking about? That is feedback right there. That was it. Are we talking about the Kickstarter one, or are we talking about the Dutch one? The Dutch one. Yeah. That was the feedback that we got. I played it a few times. It was at Electric Playground. It's still there. It was at a women's launch party. And then also played it at Expo and everything. And it's something. Well, there's outlaying spinners that you activate with your flipper.
    129:23
    And that was the only other bit of official. The outlaying saves do nothing but push the ball to the outlaying.
    129:31
    Yeah. So it is. Maybe that player. He's not a very good player, though. That's probably what it is. It's probably a lack of skill. You guys not love the left shot?
    129:42
    Do you know what the left shot does? I've never, like, orbit this on an orbit. It just kind of loops. Isn't it just like a little loop? It just loops back and dribbles back to your flipper.
    129:50
    I don't know. I played it against a friend last year. No, you do know, Joel. You do know. It was, yeah. This one you do know. Did you have fun playing on it? No. In my opinion, it's very clear. If you buy, and I'm sorry to anybody that this offends, but at the same time, I feel like people that are buying Alice are buying it as an art piece. They're buying it because of what it looks like. I don't think anybody has realistic expectations of like, ooh, the code in this game is just really what draws you in. Or, ooh, the kinetic satisfaction of hitting this and this and this and this is just, I just can't get enough of hitting these shots. I just, I don't think we're going to hear that out of Alice. Alice in Wonderland. I think it's for the collectors that love the way it looks and love the mechs and the 3D sculpts and everything. And they love John Papaduke. Maybe. Yep. I don't know. I don't know. I really have nothing besides that. I know P3, we're kind of just waiting for Portal to be made, and those aren't out yet. There's Tariff still, haven't you heard? Sure have, yep. We all enjoyed portal at tpf so it's uh yeah i'm excited my shout out to chris one of my local friends who he dove in on the p3 and he's it's uh he owns almost every module at this point he's like princess bride he has princess bride he has wonka uh not wonka um weird al yeah willie wonka p3 he just got um he just got final resistance and it's that's the joy or the perk of the p3 right it's like you have it, so what's two grand more for another game? What's three grand more for another game? It's just... He's loving it. He's absolutely loving it. Super easy. Barely an inconvenience. Yeah. I don't know. That's all I got. We are running out of time. We said we were going to do tournament talk. We did do tournament talk. We have plugs. We got Papa coming up. Papa's exciting. We got world championships to win, Joel.
    131:51
    Okay, explain this to me. Explain this. You said world championships. Yeah, so if you win, you're a world champion. That's how it works. But that's what I don't understand. Didn't we have, wasn't there a tournament over in Europe just a few months ago that was worlds? There's multiple world championships. That's what I'm saying. There's multiple majors. Have you ever watched sports at all? Or tennis?
    132:15
    There is one Super Bowl. Ping Pong? There is one Super Bowl. There is one in the series. There's a Pro Bowl. There's one NBA finals. That's what I'm saying. But you're saying majors like golf. Okay. There's multiple majors, right? Okay. I understand what you're saying now. Yes. Okay. I understand. Okay. Carl Indus, it's not a major. Sorry, buddy. And what's the other one? Step up your game. Ifba? Okay. Josh, Ifba's not a major anymore. Sorry. Okay. What about Pembroke?
    132:48
    No. It's just Papa now. European football championship. Can you at least acknowledge Sorry all the Europeans Everybody listens in Germany We love you guys We just went over and grew up to play in Worlds Seems like that's the word Worlds There is a movement in pinball A movement Joel is one of the The forefront runners of this. They just hate tournaments. They hate tournaments. They're on the front page. They won't put me on the front page anymore. Let's put Joel on the front page and his tournament-hating ass.
    133:41
    Unbelievable. I did apply to Twitch. If you were going to win, if you could only win one tournament next year, you could only win one tournament, which tournament is the one that you want? Like, what's the one you're most, that's what I'm saying. Because if there isn't a top, if there isn't a, like, is there one that's considered the top tournament to win? Or is it just you want to win one of these majors? I can't go to IFPA anymore because I'm not ranked high enough. So that's out.
    134:16
    So then it would be Pinberg, Indus, EPC, or Papa. And since I'm streaming Papa next, I'm going to pick Papa.
    134:29
    Good choice. This tournament in a week? Is that right? Yeah. September 4th through the 7th. Okay. When I got into the hobby, that's when Pinberg was still happening in Pinberg. Like in Pennsylvania, right? And that was the one. That, to me, the vibe that I got that was Pinberg, that was the top. That was the top one. So for Elwin to win it, what, two, three years in a row? Like that was a big deal. But the more that I've gotten into this, realizing it's like, no, there's worlds. And to qualify that, you have to win, you have to be ranked certain amounts. And then I know in the U.S., it's like to play in certain tournaments, you have to be the winner of your state tournament. Yeah, I play nationals and all that, yeah. I mean, I would say in the past, the most impressive one would have been Pinnberg. In the past, just because it's 1,000 plus players. Yeah, you're playing every era of game. You have to be a true all-around pinball player. I would have said that that's the top one in the past. Now, to me, personally, I think it's a tie between InDisc and IFBA. Because IFBA, you've got to be a certain rank. You have to play against the best players in the world the whole entire time. You get no easy games. And then on top of that, even though I don't like the format, it's heads up, which is the most purest, let's see who the best player is format on the game that you're choosing. And you've got to choose different eras again. Heads up is 1v1. You versus me. And it could be. You prefer to play four-player games. Right. It could just be a few games. It could be up to nine games. It just depends. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that. And just, you know, for InDesk, it's just because it's card format, and it's incredibly difficult to do, to put five games in a row. And even though it's 40 in finals, I mean, that's nerve-wracking. You know, you've got to play great games, and you've got to have a lot of breaks go your way as well. So why is Papa going to be good? Why is this one? Why is Papa going to be good? Because we're going to dethrone Raymond Davidson, Joel. That's who won last year? That's who won last year, yeah. Isn't it? It's at Interium, right? So it's like his own turf. So he just knows all the games and he cheats, right?
    136:47
    No, he well earned it. He had a hard group last year. Tom's kid was in it. And then you had, I think it was ZMAC and Escher was in it. So, yeah, I mean, it's tough. I think what's interesting about Papa, it's not, and I say this, and I probably won't qualify now, it's not so much that the qualifying is hard. It's the grind of finals because it's like 72 or something like that. Top 72. Yeah, it's so many people in finals. And that makes, if you don't get a bye, that is a super long day. But it's cool because it reminds me of like the NCAA tournament. So you're going to see some like upsets and things like that, you know.
    137:32
    There's more opportunities there than anywhere else to get into the finals. Oh, yeah, that's awesome, 100%. But granted, there's, you know, 270-plus players signed up. So, you know. So anybody could sign up? There was no qualifying? Joe, you could sign up right now. Your qualifying is how big is your bank account? Like, you got to pay the entry fee, and then you're good to go.
    137:57
    You should show up, Joe. You should play. $20. $20 cards. Five, five. You know, if I was a single man. But it is limited to three. There's so much more pinball I would do. Really?
    138:12
    Oh, yeah. I would play in tournaments. Would you? I think if I was single, I wouldn't play as much pinball. I think I'd be the opposite. I'd go to this with family. That's my problem. My kids are too young to play competitively, and my wife is not interested. What about you, Tom? If you were single, would you do more pinball? I am. Or a family dinosaur? No, just kidding. He's like, he's a world-class player. He's got all the boys. I mean, I already play a lot of pinball being married, so I kind of got the best of both worlds. He's figured it out.
    138:49
    True. I don't think I could ever be single, though. I'd be in trouble. Nothing would work in your house. I would not be able to adult. Everything would be broken. It would be a shit show. You'd have no toothpaste. You would have run out and never got a new one. I'd be like Kevin off Home Alone, just like going to the store and trying to figure out how this all works and probably should be falling through the bag. I did want to say for Papa, it is dedicated to the memory of Lyman Cheats. And we have the 988 National Suicide Prevention hotline that we basically donations go to that. So that's a big thing. Yeah. Especially, you know, I'm in the career of the number one suicide rate. So, you know, it speaks volumes. So it's a good cause. You said that's the 988? Yep. Lifeline, right? Correct. On our stream, we're going to have a link, basically, where you can donate to that if you're watching.
    140:15
    Nice. Very cool. And I know Penny's very involved in this whole thing. Absolutely. And they're doing a raffle, too, and all that as well. There's a ton of giveaways. Yeah, I think they're even doing, like, two pinball machines. But I don't know if that's for people that are there or if people online can do that, too. I think that part's just for people that are there that are signed up for the tournament. Correct. Yeah. That's really neat.
    140:39
    Well, we have gone two hours and 20 minutes. Oh, yeah. Not me. And we've only gone for an hour and 45 minutes. We had no agenda going into this. The agenda was hanging out, Joel. Yeah. I hope it was good. The agenda was Joel calling me Tim.
    140:58
    You logged in as Tim. I did. Let's plug it up. Tom Graff, go ahead and start with the plugs. I am going to be streaming on Fox Cities Pinball on Twitch. We're going to be doing Papa. We're going to be doing Slaps. We're going to be doing Expo. We're going to be doing Atomic Pinball in December. We've got a lot of stuff coming up. So if you like tournament pinball and you're not Joel, you'll enjoy it. check out his swag on silverbowlswag.com. You can get Fox City swag there. You can also get Triple Drain swag. I'm the one. I'm wearing a Purdue sweatshirt. They are rocking the Triple Drain. Well done, guys. Well done. You can check out that. So, silverbowlswag.com. If you want, I think we still have a Zazzle store. If you want a Triple Drain lunchbox, I think we sold, like, six of those. But it was worth it. Make it seven. Let's go. It was worth it.
    142:01
    But, yeah. All right. Travis, plug away. You guys can find me right here on Triple Drain. The YouTube channel is Triple Drain, I think, right? That sounds right. It's one of those. Okay, yeah. Or you guys can find me over at my other job, the Pinball Company YouTube channel, where I chill out there and do all things pinball, some things not pinball, sometimes make fun of Joel, sometimes don't, but we still love Joel. I don't think you've made fun of me on that channel yet. I think I've made reference to you once. Oh, great.
    142:32
    Yeah. All right. And I'm Joel. Obviously, I'm here on Triple Drain. And then I do the Flippin' Out Pinball stream every Wednesday night with my brother, Jared. We have Survivor on Super Bowl Survivor as well. Check out our YouTube for tutorials and our live streams. We just streamed Cactus Canyon with the upgrade kit. Had a lot of fun with that.
    142:49
    And, yeah, that's all I got. So, with all that said, Tom, you get the last words. Play more pinball.