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Episode 68 - Living In The Past? Nope.

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 11m·analyzed·Sep 3, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Playfield clear-coating debate: past vs. present manufacturing philosophy and industry accountability.

Summary

Ken and Bill of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast discuss the evolution of pinball playfield clear-coating issues by comparing current manufacturer responses to historical industry practices from the 1980s-2000s. They feature archival audio from the TopCast podcast (2007-2010) with legendary designers Python Angelo and Pat Lawler, who debated whether durable playfields (diamond plate, polycarbonate overlaminates) hurt the replacement parts business. The hosts argue that modern manufacturers are actively trying to solve clear-coating problems—unlike the past when durability was sometimes discouraged—and that the shift to home collectors makes poor playfield quality unsustainable.

Key Claims

  • Spooky Pinball has solved their playfield clear-coating issues and uses an in-house process they consider an industrial secret

    high confidence · Dr. John (correspondent) reporting on conversation with Charlie at Spooky; references YouTube episode showing million ball launches with no dimpling/chipping

  • Jersey Jack Pinball says the clear-coating issue affects a small number of games, not widespread

    high confidence · Jack's prepared statement to Pinball News/Pinball Magazine podcast; Ken and Bill summarize

  • Multimorphic's next unreleased game features unique video presentation with simultaneous video vignettes and stacking mode juggling

    high confidence · BJ Wilson (Multimorphic software engineer) quoted in Ryan Claytor correspondent segment about P3's fourth game

  • Ryan Claytor is stepping away from correspondent duties for Special When Lit after one or two more segments

    high confidence · Ken announces Ryan informed him a couple weeks prior; describes Ryan as professional/polished

  • Python Angelo worked on art/design for High Speed, Grand Lizard, Pinbot, Big Guns, Cyclone, Taxi, Police Force, Bugs Bunny, Bride of Pinbot, Hurricane, Fishtales, Popeye Saves the Earth, and unreleased Pinball Circus and Zingy Bingy

    high confidence · Ken lists Python's credits before playing 2007 TopCast interview

  • In the 1980s-90s, Williams/Bally deliberately kept playfields less durable because replacement sales were crucial to their business model

    high confidence · Python Angelo in 2007 TopCast: 'pinball market is a replacement market'; polycarbonate laminate playfields 'would have put us out of business'

  • Pat Lawler pioneered diamond plate clear coating on Williams games starting with Banzai Run in early 1990s

    high confidence · Pat Lawler in 2010 TopCast interview; Ron Baum from Sun Process introduced the process

  • Williams internally debated whether diamond plate playfields would hurt their replacement machine sales, but engineering convinced management quality/product longevity was better than planned obsolescence

Notable Quotes

  • “The problem with polycarbonate surfaces to the playfield is they would have put us out of business...the pinball market is a replacement market.”

    Python Angelo @ ~15:00 — Core argument about why durable playfields threatened Williams/Bally's business model in the 1980s-90s

  • “You can't just one day have a salesman come in and go, oh, there's this new stuff I can put on your playfield. Trust me, it will be great. And then you put it into production the next week...You can't afford to risk your company on untried processes.”

    Pat Lawler @ ~22:30 — Explains conservative approach to new playfield technologies; relevant to current manufacturer struggles

  • “We've got to be able to stand behind the products. We can't put something out there that's going to fail, that's going to delaminate, that we're going to have chipping.”

    Ken (paraphrasing Pat Lawler's philosophy) @ ~38:00 — Contrasts Pat Lawler's philosophy (which influenced Jersey Jack) with Python's business model concerns

  • “If you have a pinball machine...They lasted too long. Yeah, your own games were your biggest competition.”

    Python Angelo / Interviewer exchange @ ~14:00 — Describes the competitive cannibalization problem created by durable playfields

  • “The focus is on the home market. So for you to be able to have a process or a thought process of saying we're going to throw potentially disintegrating playfields into the home market or we're just going to let them buy new pinball machines every four years, that doesn't work.”

    Ken @ ~35:00 — Explains why modern manufacturers cannot use old business model; home collectors have different expectations

  • “I mean, if you don't make it right with those people, no one expects perfection. But, I mean, you do have to do right by people that are purchasing your products.”

    Bill @ ~40:00 — Sums up modern accountability standard for manufacturers

  • “Cal Ripken streak of pinball podcasting going right now...68 episodes...since July of last year without skipping a week.”

Entities

KenpersonBillpersonPython AngelopersonPat LawlerpersonCharliepersonRyan ClaytorpersonBJ WilsonpersonClay HarrellpersonRon Baumperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Multiple manufacturers (Jersey Jack, Spooky, others) experiencing playfield chipping, art adhesion, and clear-coating delamination issues; manufacturers actively investigating root causes

    high · Dr. John correspondent report; Jersey Jack's prepared statement; community discussion on social media and Pinside

  • ?

    design_innovation: Spooky Pinball has developed proprietary in-house clear-coating process solving playfield durability issues; Charlie tested with million ball launches showing no dimpling/chipping

    high · Dr. John's conversation with Charlie; reference to YouTube episode demonstrating process efficacy

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Current manufacturers shifting from past philosophy (planned obsolescence via weak playfields) to proactive durability testing and root cause analysis; conservative approach to new coating processes

    high · Pat Lawler's philosophy of testing before deployment; current manufacturer statements about responsible product development

  • ?

    machine_intel: Multimorphic P3's fourth game in development features unique video presentation with simultaneous vignettes and stacking mode video juggling; software coordination by BJ Wilson

    high · BJ Wilson quoted in Ryan Claytor correspondent segment: 'presentation of the video content is kind of unique...video vignettes that get played...simultaneously...particularly when you get to things like stacking modes'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ryan Claytor stepping away from Multimorphic correspondent duties for Special When Lit Pinball Podcast after 1-2 more segments

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.215

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? It's episode 68, special When Lit Pinball Podcast. My name's Ken. I am Bill. We're here to inform and entertain for the next 45 minutes or so on a pinball podcast. What is going on, Bill? How are you, man? Just enjoying the three-day weekend, man. How about you? Yeah, so it's Labor Day weekend here in the United States of America, and this being Monday, we're recording on Labor Day. That's a dedication we have as podcasters, Bill. There is no holiday in which we take off. Banks are off, schools are off, and yet we are still doing this. In fact, 68 episodes. We've been doing this since July of last year without skipping a week. So we've got the Cal Ripken streak of pinball podcasting going right now. I've impressed myself. Till we don't. Right, right. So that being said, next week, fully expect to have a week off. Anything happening with you, man? Anything going on? No, man. Just lining some stuff up hopefully sooner or later to acquire some other games that I want. And that's about it, man. You're the massive buyer and seller lately. Dude, because I know as soon as October 9th hits, man, it's game over. October 9th being the arrival of a little baby bill coming into the picture. If not a little sooner. Now, have you manipulated your way into getting to Expo for a day? Since Expo is like literally, what is it, eight days or seven days after the due date of your son, right? Seven. Seven days. Yeah. Okay. You know what? That's wrong. It's actually eight days. Eight days. Yeah. What are the odds? Train it or save it, Bill. You make it to Expo for one day. I don't know, man.
1:40
It's like you got to drain it or save it. I'm doing everything we can. I know. So yesterday I told her, I was like, I almost bought a game today and she didn't bat an eyelash. So that was kind of cool. Well, because she's been conditioned at this point. I'm not even batting an eyelash. You're buying so many games that I don't even think to ask. I'm just going to show up one day. and as a little side note i haven't been to your place in quite a long time so i've not seen all the new additions in their lineup so not to invite myself over but as your pinball podcasting partner you are welcome for the last you know over a year yeah let's let's try to set that up because i'd like to see how it's progressing i've been switching games in and out i haven't just been buying though in all fairness right well you know you're buying and selling and swapping and all that good stuff all right so uh i am uh right now finishing and i'm in the finishing moments of the garage project so i just i did this torch wall right so like i put all this ship lap and i torched it with this weed burner and i threw it up on the wall it looks pretty nice i like it uh and then good man yeah i appreciate it so i hope to have that garage done like beginning of october october 1st will be great and then we ordered all of the framework for our wireless streaming rigs so we're actually building three of those we're building uh one for myself one for the uh bill webb uh location because you're going to start streaming uh some stuff on special when lit studio w studio w and then uh we're doing another one for a friend that requested that we build three at a time so fun times in pinball for us and uh never a dull moment lots of streaming ahead lots of streaming ahead which is streaming ahead you know on a sidebar the wife actually said she would stream pinball with with me so you're gonna stream with jamie jamie wants to stream i mean this might be a little while stream right stream stream some does she know what that means she does okay i told Tell her I think you're streamlining your collection out of the basement. No, no, no, no, no, no. Tell her I'm like, listen, we can play some Baywatch. We can play some Wizard of Oz. Nothing says marital bliss like streaming Baywatch with the wife on Twitch. I, hey, you know what? I'm curious to see the feedback. We could have three people in there that'll be wholeheartedly entertained. So it's all good to me. It is what it is. So it's cool that she's willing to do that. You know, for those of you that haven't gotten into streaming or or watching streams, it was something that never appealed to me very much. But I encourage you, go to twitch.tv and type in pinball. Look at some of these streaming channels. There's a lot of people that are offering content, and it's a pretty fun community. Let's get into what's going on recently. Now, with the pinball news, let's check in with the correspondents first, and then let's follow up on our end. All right.

high confidence · Pat Lawler 2010 interview: 'huge discussion in-house about are we cutting our own throat'

  • Bill has a baby due October 9th and is considering attending Pinball Expo (8 days after due date) for at least one day

    high confidence · Personal discussion between Ken and Bill at episode start

  • Bill is building three wireless streaming rigs: one personal, one for Bill Webb location (Special When Lit Studio W), one for a friend

    high confidence · Ken mentions Bill's garage project and streaming infrastructure plans

    • Ken @ ~01:00 — Meta-commentary on show consistency and work ethic

  • “Nothing says marital bliss like streaming Baywatch with the wife on Twitch.”

    Ken @ ~08:00 — Humorous aside about streaming culture and wife's willingness to participate in pinball content

    • Bill Webbperson
    Jackperson
    Dr. Johnperson
    Kazperson
    Danperson
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Williamscompany
    Ballycompany
    TopCastorganization
    Pinball Newsorganization
    Pinball Magazineorganization

    high · Ken announces Ryan informed him couple weeks prior; describes as professional/polished contributor

  • ?

    business_signal: Multimorphic gaining exposure through Dave & Buster's placement; fourth game release positioned as critical for company growth and market visibility

    high · Ken/Bill discussion: 'they've gotten themselves in the platform and Dave and Buster's...next game's got to be a blockbuster...this next game's got to be a blockbuster'

  • ?

    content_signal: Special When Lit building streaming infrastructure with three wireless rigs; expanding content production capacity; wife (Jamie) willing to participate in streaming content

    high · Ken mentions ordered framework for three wireless streaming rigs; Bill Webb location (Studio W) and friend recipient; Jamie willing to stream pinball

  • ?

    historical_signal: Archive audio from TopCast (2007-2010) interviews with Python Angelo and Pat Lawler documenting industry transition from replacement-parts-focused business model to durable playfield philosophy

    high · Detailed discussion of TopCast interviews; Python Angelo's candid statements about replacement market; Pat Lawler's philosophy of product responsibility

  • ?

    community_signal: Home collector market now dominant; different expectations than commercial operators; manufacturers cannot use old planned-obsolescence model due to collector expectations and direct accountability

    high · Ken/Bill discussion: 'focus is on the home market...can't afford to do that anymore...one gripe and you're done selling to that customer'

  • ?

    event_signal: IFPA tournament and Oktoberfest party at Logan Arcade on September 22nd (American Pinball event)

    high · Kaz American Pinball correspondent report

  • ?

    operational_signal: American Pinball team (Dan, Ferret, Rosh, Barry) praised for rapid customer interaction and issue resolution (response times in minutes to hours); positive reception of Oktoberfest code updates

    high · Kaz correspondent: 'they've been interacting with customers and operators...replies back to people within a few minutes few hours...most of those problems resolved'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: American Pinball releasing Oktoberfest with positive code update reception; Spooky Pinball upcoming title referenced (Alice Cooper implied)

    medium · Correspondent reports mention Oktoberfest code updates and upcoming Spooky title; no explicit IP name confirmed for Spooky

    • 4:02
    Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz. Hello, everyone. I'm Dr. John with this week's spooky update. The issue du jour seems to be playfield, chipping, clear coat, art adhesion and all sorts of troublesome playfield issues that seem to be coming out of multiple manufacturers. This has been blamed variously on assembly methods or construction of playfield art or the clear coating itself. I had a chat to Charlie about the spooky playfields and important to note, Charlie makes all his own playfields as far as printing and clear coating. It's all done in-house, none are made by third-party manufacturers, and they did identify an issue a long time ago which has been sold. I remember a YouTube episode that came out showing a million ball launches onto an America's most haunted playfield with no evidence of dimpling or chipping. I asked Charlie if he was willing to share the secrets with me, but it is an industrial secret, and their process seems to be holding up well with no reported issues with Alice Cooper. so the future is looking good for Spooky and for the upcoming title catch you all next week Hey this is Kaz, your special and lit American Pinball correspondent Dan over at American Pinball has let me know that there is an Oktoberfest party at Logan Arcade it's going to be on September 22nd there's also going to be an IFPA tournament there as well so if you're in the area, go check that out and also just wanted to say thanks to the crew at American Pinball I've seen a lot of the guys there on Pinside Dan and Ferret, Rosh and Barry, they've been interacting with customers and operators for any kind of complaints and issues they've had with their machines and they usually have replies back to people within a few minutes a few hours and they can get most of those problems resolved so thanks guys for all the hard work you do and it seems like everybody's been enjoying the code updates on Oktoberfest so everybody have fun, go play some pinball Have a great day.
    6:39
    The first thing he wrote was Launcher, an app that allows you to select your game in the P3 environment. He followed that up with some constituent coding on Lexi Lightspeed, specifically regarding the interaction with the ball on the screen. After his involvement with Lexi, BJ's also been involved with a host of other essential coding duties for the P3, like writing the platform's personalized app store I mentioned a few episodes back, its online functionality, as well as the P3 diagnostic system. BJ is currently coordinating the software for the P3's yet-to-be-announced fourth game that will follow up Cosmic Kart Racing. And while we can't reveal much about this upcoming title, I asked if there's any part of his involvement with the game that he's particularly excited about. The presentation of the video content is kind of unique. There's a series of sort of video vignettes that get played, and the way that any one of them can kind of play at any given time. It's not just play video one and play video two and play video three. You can have a bunch of things happening simultaneously. and the juggling of that, particularly when you get to things like stacking modes, knowing exactly what to show people at the right time. I'm kind of pleased with how that's going. And that pretty much brings us up to speed on BJ Wilson's contributions to Multimorphic and the P3. Until next time, stay innovative. So I think if you don't mind, before we get into... Now listen, we're not going to get into major clear-coding discussion as far as what's going on with the manufacturers, because I think it's been covered pretty well in the news and on podcasts. and on pin side and whatnot. But I think there's some interesting bits of audio that I think everybody would like to hear so we can kind of compare the present versus the past. But before we do that, I wanted to take a quick second and Ryan of Multimorphic, or Ryan Claytor, who's been covering Multimorphic, done a great job with that company. Now he's discussing, you know, he's showcasing somebody that's working at the facility or working, you know, for Multimorphic. Yes. And he mentions the next game that's coming out, and they're talking about the next game that's coming out. I think that the next game that's released for Multimorphic is super important because I think they've gained additional exposure throughout different outlets. They've gotten themselves in the platform and Dave and Buster's, and you hope that that expands for the wellness of the company and maybe even for pinball.
    8:53
    But what I think is really going to be important is this next game's got to be a blockbuster. It's got to be something that's going to pull in people that normally wouldn't have looked. Absolutely. If that makes sense. It's not necessarily a game changer or a deal breaker, I should say, whereas if that game flops, the company flops. But I think now is a great time to take advantage of what's transpired over the last few weeks. And during that release, I really think it has to be hit hard. I also wanted to thank Ryan Claytor because he's been an important part of our correspondence that have been covering the manufacturers. And Ryan informed me a couple weeks ago that he's going to be stepping away from the correspondent segment for Multimorphic. And I believe he's got one or two more segments left, so he'll be signing off at some point. So for those of you – That's a great job. Yeah, outstanding job. I mean, Ryan's a polished guy. He's a professional guy. I mean, he's a professor. Yeah. And he's offered so many things within pinball. So it was an honor to have him aboard. And we'll send him – we'll give him the proper sign-off when he officially signs off. But for those of you that have been enjoying Ryan's Multimorphic segments, unfortunately, those will be coming to a close here in the next week or two. Now, Spooky Pinball John Cosson is Dr. John. He's like, listen, Spooky's figured out this clear coat thing and they're good to go. And they kind of have what might be considered as like an industry secret. And I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to share that secret. No, not without, you know, somebody paying for it. Not that Spooky's trying to compete at the level in which a Stern pinball or maybe a Jersey Jack pinball is putting out games, but to have a leg up on something that has become, or in my opinion, has always been pretty important, and that's the integrity of play field clear-coding. It's kind of nice to have that in your back pocket. Now, what I did want to do, if you don't mind, Bill, because we just heard recently, so Jersey Jack went on Pinball News, Pinball Magazine podcast, and he had a prepared statement, and he talked about the clear-coding issues. And to summarize, you've probably heard this statement, but he essentially said, look, I apologize for not responding sooner, but we've been working on this in-house. Night and day. And right now, I mean, we've been working diligently to see what's going on. And for those that are affected, those customers are going to be taken care of. We've always stood by our products. And we've mentioned in our prior podcasts that we've not known Jersey Jack not to stand behind their products.
    11:16
    And we were hoping that we would see some type of proactive movement for customers that are experiencing some severe issues and some customers that are concerned about moving forward. And it looks like we're starting to get statements. Now, you can't say that you have this thing fixed yet because I'm sure they're still trying to find the root of the problem. Jack suggested that it's not a widespread problem and it's something that's been reported on a small number of games. I don't know what number constitutes a small amount of games. I don't know how many games are coming out of Jersey Jack Pinball. I don't know how many games are affected. I don't know how many games are reported or anything like that. I get that. I think maybe your typical consumer is not going to notice something. And it's probably the more particular collector or buyer or seller or enthusiast that's going to be, you know, a little bit more on alert with something like this. And I'm in that camp. Oh, yeah, for sure. But what I wanted to do here is I wanted everybody to listen to this because I think this is important. And for those of you that appreciate pinball history and you appreciate how it's evolved into the present, I think this is going to be something that you're going to consider very, very interesting. I was contacted by a listener of the show. So he goes by Ziggy Sauer on Twitter. And he said, hey, listen, I've been listening to the show, and I appreciate it. I think you guys will enjoy this. You should give it a listen. So he sends me over to TopCast, which is like one of the original pinball podcasts. It might be the original pinball podcast. And it was done by a couple guys named Shaggy and Norm. And Top is this old pinball podcast. So it was TopCast is what the name of the pinball podcast was. Now, Ziggy is actually Clay Harrell, and Clay's been in pinball for a long time. Now, I'm starting to backlog some of these episodes, and there were a couple parts in these episodes that really rang loudly to me.
    13:09
    And it was a piece that was done, I think, in 2007 and another piece that was recorded in 2010. and I want to play these pieces for you because the piece that's in 2007 is an interview that Clay had done with Python Angela.
    13:29
    And another one that happened in 2010 was an interview with Pat Lawler. Now that was the time, like pinball was in a transitional phase, right? Yeah, we're still trying to make it out of the dark ages. Exactly. But what they talk about and what they address are the past day clear coding issues and different theories to approach protecting the play fields and the pros and cons of actually protecting the play fields. Now, before I play this, I think it's important to recognize that the reason I'm playing this is not because I think I found something out that nobody else knew, because I'm sure this is common knowledge, especially for those in the industry. But I think it's important to point out because now what you're going to hear that happened in the past that was maybe a mistake is it's a completely different game nowadays. And you're seeing the manufacturers that are actively trying to correct this issue because it's not an issue that they want to have. It's not an issue in which they want to have to deal with. They don't want the consumers to deal with. Now, back then, that wasn't the case. And I'm going to play the audio. And then if you don't mind, we'll go ahead and we'll discuss this. So first, let's go to the interview. And this took place in 2007 on TopCast. And this is Python Angelo. Now, Python Angelo, he worked animation for Disney. He worked in video games. He worked in pinball design and artwork for decades. And for those of you that don't know, if you own a High Speed, a Grand Lizard, a Pinbot, Big Guns, Cyclone, Taxi Jokers, Police Force, Bad Cats, Bugs Bunny, The Machine, Bride of Pinbot, Hurricane, Fishtails, Popeye Saves the Earth, Pinball Circus, which is a design that never came to fruition, Flipper Football, Zingy Bingy, another design that was unreleased. These are all machines that Python Angelo has his hands over, whether it be art or design or both. Yeah. Okay. So Python is not a guy that just was watering the plants over at Williams. Yeah. No, dude, he was deep into this. He was deep into this. So let's go ahead again. I'm setting the tone here. Let's listen to the approach of playfield clear coating in the past, in the Bally Williams days. The problem with polycarbonate surfaces to the playfield is they would have put us out of business. when I wanted to do a polycarbonate laminate, a transfer to the play field, some polycarbonate, the play field became indestructible,
    15:52
    meaning our games would last in the field 30, 40 years. Right. And we would not have a replacement market. We'd be f***ed with the other business. You were around when Pat Lawler wanted to do that diamond plate thing, right? It was not Pat Lawler. It was Mike Moore.
    16:10
    It was Joe Joe's. Mike Moore was from some process. He's a chemist. They did the adhesives and the hard coat stuff.
    16:23
    Okay. So Pat Lawler didn't really have much to do with that? Pat Lawler has no clue about chemistry. It was Mike Moore. It was Ron Baum. I can't give you their numbers. You can talk to them. And do you feel that the diamond plate thing was a good or a bad thing?
    16:41
    It was bullshit. It would have put us out of business like my polycarbonate, laminated, printed full-color plate field.
    16:53
    Because the pinball market is a replacement market. If you have a pinball machine, and that was the problem with our machines from Williams from the 80s and early 90s. They put Williams Pimple out of business.
    17:09
    They lasted too long. Yeah, your own games were your biggest competition. Yeah. So completely interesting to hear from Python Angelo. The industry at the time, they counted on those playfields failing at some point so that the operator would replace the machine with a brand-new machine and not a playfield. Absolutely. Dude, it makes sense, though. So I mean it's a consumer-filled idea.
    17:37
    Now we're gonna go to Pat Lawler because Pat had comments on this. Again, the same TopCast podcast back in 2010 this time.
    17:45
    And I wanna let everybody know, I did reach out to Clay and I asked that it would be okay that I aired segments of the show on our show And he did give me the okay to do so So by regurgitating this I didn do it without asking permission So Special Inlet Pinball Podcast was given permission by Clay one of the creators of TopCast, and the man that's interviewing these gentlemen to replay this. So let's go ahead and listen to Pat Waller on Playfield Clear Coating and his comments from 2010. All right, now before we talk about Adam's family, we've got to talk about Playfield Coatings. You were kind of the pioneer in what became Williams Diamond Plate. And this started on your games. I mean, specifically with... There are diamond-plated play fields that are in Bonsai Run. Right, right, Bonsai Run. Now, what was... I mean, how did you make this happen? Why did it take so long to actually... You know, it was early 90s before this actually became, you know, called production, a standard feature. or why did it take so long, and what was the whole process? Diamond Plate was initiated by one of the vendors, Sun Process.
    19:00
    And the guy who was the sales guy for Sun Process at the time was a gentleman named Ron Baum. Ron would come in to the plant, and he had this process, and he was trying to get people interested in it. and nobody wanted to bite partly because it cost an extra $20 a play field.
    19:25
    And so we agreed. Larry said, you know, okay, Ron, why don't you do some of the sample play fields in Bonsai Run in diamond plate and we'll find out how good this stuff is. You also have to understand that you don't just do things like that. You don't just one day have a salesman come in and go, oh, there's this new stuff I can put on your play field. Trust me, it will be great. And then you put it into production the next week. And one of the reasons you don't do that is because what happens a year later when the play field hard coat starts delaminating from the play field and flaking off in giant chunks? you can't afford to risk your company on untried processes. You just can't. So you have to be conservative and you have to say, all right, we'll start out with samples, we'll put them into the real world, we'll try and keep track as best we can of some of these samples, and we'll find out what happens with the process.
    20:37
    And so we did that with Bonsai Run. We did more of them with Whirlwind, et cetera, et cetera. And so basically it got proved that there wasn't anything detrimental that was going to happen with the hard coat. It was proved that it truly gave the play fields more life. and at some point the company decided, okay, we'll go with it.
    21:09
    Now you have to understand that along with all of that, there was a huge discussion internally about, are we building play fields that will never wear out? Because one of the reasons that an operator would replace a game eventually was because the play fields wore out. If you look at the ballet games from the 60s and 70s and some of the Gottlieb games and the older games, the play fields wear out on your games that get played a lot. They would just wear out. The paint would go away. And so you sold product because that happened. And there was a huge discussion in-house about are we cutting our own throat by doing this? and the people in engineering convinced the people in management that it was far better to sell product based on how good your product was than on just plain old wearing out your old product. You know, it was kind of the old Detroit, new Detroit thing.
    22:23
    And that's how it happened. We started out using it as samples, and we went along. Ron was so grateful that I was willing to try it. I have whirlwind playfields in my possession that he had specially stenciled,
    22:43
    specially screen printed on the bottom that says, this playfield was specially made for Pat Lawler and is protected by diamond plate.
    22:54
    Looking back on it, though, I mean, when it became obvious that in the mid-'90s, the biggest competitor to Williams games was early-'90s games,
    23:09
    do you think that diamond plate was a mistake? Can't convince me of it. So there we have it, Clay talking to Pat Lawler. Now, we have two guys, right? First interview, Python Angelo, recorded in 2007. The next interview in 2010 and both of the replies and the storytelling and the recollection seems to match up. Yes. So I think at this point we've got two guys that were leaders in the industry that both are telling very similar stories. So it's not a he said she said type of a thing as far as that goes. Number two, I think it's interesting because you've got one guy that thought it was the demise of pinball. and that was with Python Angelo because selling the replacements, pinball was a replacement selling industry. If you didn't have those replacements to sell.
    23:57
    You were losing out on market share. I mean, dude, he looked at it as a consumable product. Your pinball machine was going to last just, you know, three, four years. That's right. You know, like your brakes on your car and you're going to have to replace it. Right. And essentially doing it, you know. So by putting that over laminate on the play field. The laminate plate on it. You didn't, you know, your brakes suddenly lasted three times longer. Right. So Python was talking about polycarbonate over laminate going over the playfield, making the playfield indestructible. You've got Pat Lawler who was talking about diamond plating the playfield, which was a certain method of clear coating.
    24:28
    And so Python really believes that they probably shouldn't have done that because it may have led to the demise of pinballing companies because they no longer had that income of the replacement machines because the playfields weren't going. The games lasted a lot longer. At the same time, when all that went down, though, I mean, arcades weren't doing well. Games were lasting longer. Do you think that the longevity of the games lasting longer was really the sole reason for the demise of the pinball machines? I couldn't tell you, but I can tell you that I wasn't working in pinball at that time, and I wasn't in the industry. So it sounds like it was a general concern, because when you listen to Pat Lawler, he says the same thing. He said there was a lot of internal conversation saying, is this the right step going forward? Now, Pat took a different approach, and Pat said, we've got to be able to stand behind the products. We can't put something out there that's going to fail, that's going to delaminate, that we're going to have chipping and that sort of thing. And unfortunately, Python passed, so he passed away, I think, in 2014, so he's no longer with us. Pat's still working at Pinball, and he's working at Jersey Jack. So you have the guy that believes in standing behind the product working at Jersey Jack Pinball, which I think is important. Not to say that Jersey Jack isn't going to stand behind the product because Pat Lawler wouldn't be there.
    25:44
    But I think the differences are, I mean, there's a few differences. One, you had location play where you were just kind of selling and flipping machines to operators that were able to profit on these games. And the stuff that we find wrong today is nothing compared to what they would gripe about back then. Nothing. Correct. Because right now, a lot of the focus is on the home market. So for you to be able to have a process or a thought process of saying we're going to throw potentially disintegrating play fields into the home market or we're just going to let them buy new pinball machines every four years, that doesn't work. Now, also, the home machines are not getting anywhere near the play that the commercial machines were getting at the time. So the reason that I thought it was important to play this is that I wanted everybody to see similar issues were concerns back in the day. And back in the day, they had a different thought process on protecting those play fields. It may not have been the right decision. Current day right now, there's it seems to be an active movement to make sure that we can get those play fields to be as indestructible as possible. Yeah, they are trying. An interesting point was brought up in those interviews, too, was that Pat says, listen, you can't just go in and throw a new product on a play field and just hope that it works. I mean, it's got to be tried and true. There's got to be some testing going on. Right. So you've got to make sure that there's this isn't something where they're just going to switch to a different vendor. Oh, yeah. Or switch to a different clear coat process that hasn't been used before. And they're going to be able to say, well, we we did it because no, because then at that point. Well, they're transitioning like the Titanic, dude. Very slow moving. to change. Oh, Titanic might not be the best metaphor. Like a big boat then. Like a barge or something. Yeah, they're not going to put all these brand new untested samples into a game back in the day. Right. Which made complete sense. But I mean, if you look at the industry back then, look at how many high speeds are worn out and beat the snot. And those are the ones that survived because they were decent enough to be saved.
    27:41
    Versus Adams families. Well, the Diamond Plate playfield, Again, I mean, I had Earthshaker prototype number three or number six or whatever it was, and that had seen a lot of play. But it was diamond plated, and the play field looked pretty impeccable. It did. So at this point, I mean, we have to find the current-day diamond plate. And, you know, whether that's going to be a polycarbonate over laminate like Python Angelo said could have been done back then, or whether it's finding a different method of clear coating to increase hardener and, you know, limiting dimples and pooling and cracking, I don't know. What I do know is that the effort right now, I believe, is being focused on eliminating the problem and not blowing it off in the hopes that a customer buys a machine again in a few years because that was part of the residual income or profit of buying pinball and selling pinball machines. It's a different world, but I think everybody should be able to appreciate that because with the home collector being so prominent, you can't afford to do that anymore. No, you only got one gripe, dude, and you're done selling to that customer.
    28:50
    There's so many different issues that have happened in the last couple of years. I mean, if you don't make it right with those people, no one expects perfection. But, I mean, you do have to do right by people that are purchasing your products. Right, right. I love Python Angelo because he's so candid, right? I mean, he's just like – Don't care. He's a wild, crazy guy, and he's just going to tell you how it is. And Pat Lawler is obviously a little more – Reserved. Reserved is a great word for that.
    29:13
    And again, my hopes by you all listening to that is just to get an idea of how pinball has evolved. And this is within the last 20, 25 years. And with play fields being so important, I think at this point we have to let the manufacturers figure it out, right? So I don't want to harp on it anymore. I will stand by what I said. I will see what every manufacturer does. How they help the people out that have purchased their product and go from there. I mean, there's nothing that we can do right now, dude. They're obviously working on stuff. Right. I doubt that they're just turning the light off and saying, you know, if it doesn't if we don't acknowledge it, the problem doesn't happen. I mean, you can see on social media right now. I mean, there's been threads that I've gone into where, you know, somebody was complaining about a play field. Manufacturer jumped in and said, hey, you know, now that we see this issue, you know, private message us and we can take care of it. So, I mean, they're not I don't think they're trying to turn a blind eye because obviously it's not good for marketing. But I mean, it will be interesting to see how it all gets handled. And the times now is way different than before with the VOCs and, you know, all these different chemicals. I mean, there's a lot of variables, right? Yeah. And we live in a country that's very loose on some of those standards, you know, especially with steel and screws and construction fasteners. Our standards of what flies here is very loose compared to, you know, overseas. Okay. So, I mean, there's a lot more dynamics into play here than people really think about. Screws that you can buy at Ace Hardware here. You can't sell in England because of codings that might be on them, like food regulations stricter in Europe than are here. I mean, there's so many different variables to this. You can't just jump and change things overnight. You can't, but there's got to be an answer. And like I said, I'm just going to actively look to see how issues are being handled and how the evolution of clear-coding or protecting play fields happens. Still going to buy and play pinball machines. I don't have a problem with that. But I won't buy from a company where I feel like I could be given a defective product and it won't be addressed. And I don't really care if that hurts anybody's feelings because I should not be hurt as the consumer. And I'm a pinball enthusiast, and I want to make sure that the company that I am supporting is going to support me. and if it's a one-way street, I'm going to park the car. I'm not going to drive down it. So that's just kind of where I'm standing on that. Yeah, lots of used games you could buy too. That's true. New, use the box, whatever it takes. We'll see what happens. But interesting. And for those of you that want more information, again, TopCast, some pretty solid content. I'm going back now and I'm listening to a lot of those and really kind of as a podcaster motivates me from just the history of pinball side. So I encourage you to check it out. And I reached out to Clay and hope to have him on the show here soon where he can kind of tell some of these stories because he had a lot of industry heavy hitters on that show. Hey, let's try out a new segment for the show, Bill, something that in a slow news week we'll implement right now. Shall we play a game? In a world full of questions. You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. The truth seekers come here. Surely you can't be serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley. Ask us anything.
    32:35
    All right, Bill, you ready to play Ask Us Anything? Brought to you by nobody because it's not a sponsored segment because I don't know if this will be a weekly segment or not. But again, on a slow news week in pinball, we're going to try this out. We opened up the call lines for people to call in. Area code 630-283-2888. You could have called. You could have asked a question, and we were going to answer it on the air. Now, we uploaded the information late, so we didn't get a lot of people that were able to call in, and most likely we'll have some that will miss the deadline. We had a handful of calls that came in initially, so I just took three of those calls, and we're going to play them here. So this is the rules. You ready? All right. You have to be brutally honest. There's no politically correct answer. No sugar on top. Now, obviously, don't put yourself in a bad position where you're going to be attacked on social media or anything like that, but you've got to be totally honest. Okay. Okay? And no question is too stupid. And now you're going to, from the calls that we had, some of the questions were really legitimate pinball questions. And some of the calls were so over the top. So I kind of, I took one. You kind of balanced it out. I balanced it out a little bit. Okay. Yeah, because we're not going to, you know, do a whole show on this. But let's take three calls. So we're going to go to caller number one. Hi, this is Skip Shickadance. And I was wondering what kind of underwear you gentlemen prefer. Ooh. All right. So that was from caller Chicken Dance. Billy wants to know what kind of underwear that we prefer. Now, I'm assuming it's the underwear that we prefer to wear and not the underwear that we just prefer in general. Okay. So did you want to start that off or did you want me to start that off? Because, again, it's ask us anything. Yeah, dude. I mean, they really took that anything and went balls to the walls with it. That's exactly right. Underwear, Bill, go. Because I'm going to learn this. Boxers. Boxers? Yeah. Like loose boxers. Good old boxers, man. Any particular brand that you support? Now, we might be able to get to the sponsorship. Now, there was a rumor that we were copying the Fanta sponsorship requests, which is not true because the actual Fanta sponsorship was in the works for quite a long time. So there was not a copycat effort on our part, but I can appreciate those. Well, we are original. We are. It's our original thought process. So what's underwear? So any brand? Just any boxers. You can go Fruit of the Loom. You can go Calvin Klein. Jockey. You can go Walmart. Jockey. Yeah. I can't believe I'm answering this freaking question on this show. Hey, Slow News Week. Okay. Slow News Week. So for those of you that want to send in a gift package for Bill Webb, it's the Jockey Boxers. And you can wear those on stream, Bill. And in all fairness, if anyone actually does do that, they probably would get banned from listening. I don't know that they would, because, hey, free boxers. Myself, I am a boxer brief guy, and I'm an Adidas brand guy right now. And I do like the moisture wicking technology going on there. So there we go. Let's take our second call. Hey, Ken and Bill, it's Orbital Albert here with the Pinball Nerds Podcast. I saw the Ask Us Anything line, and I thought, I've got to call and ask you guys something. If you were to win the lottery tomorrow, I'm not talking about like $20 or $100. I mean like millions of dollars, like you're super loaded, and you can buy any pinball machine on the planet. would you get a stern Jurassic Park pro or a Willy Wonka standard which one would you get that my question for you guys Hopefully you able to answer it I kind of like it the best when Ken goes one way and Bill goes the other way I'm not going to lie. Like when we're listening to Drain It or Save It, one of the best pinball segments on any podcast on the planet. I'll say that straight up. So I'm wondering which one would you guys choose to save, if either. All right, guys, take it easy. And until next time, remember to eat, sleep, and breathe. Jurassic Park pinball. Have a great night, guys. Hey, so that's our little Orbital Albert from Pinball Nerds Podcast. Thank you, Albert. Now, I like how he phrases the question, because evidently for us to buy a Jurassic Park Pro or a Willy Wonka Standard, we have to win millions. We're going to hit the lottery. Millions. So I totally appreciate it, man. Humble guy, truthful guy, and one of the most genuine guys that I've not met in pinball is Orby there. Nice dude. So, Bill, I think what the question comes down to, If funds are not an issue, are you buying a Jurassic Park Pro or are you buying a Willy Wonka Standard? Shooting from the hip because that's what I have to. Dude, I'm torn, man, because the evil side of me wants to see Willy Wonka next to my Wizard of Oz. Okay? Yeah. Theme-wise, I was like 12 when Jurassic Park came out, and I bought Jurassic Park. Back when they had real bad cinematography. Exactly. I mean, it was terrible, terrible crap back in the day. I love it. Yeah, go ahead. um you know it was like when they filmed airplane but uh i don't know man i filmed airplane kidding all right i'm kidding dude all right a little satire there i love it um i don't know man i'm surely you must be kidding i i'm not kidding i think stop calling me shirley i think because i've already made that choice yeah you did i'm gonna go with jurassic park i mean the money thing yeah you've made the decision without winning the lottery yes now Now, that said, though, I mean, I still will get a Willy Wonka at some point. Right. You know, it's one or the other. But Desert Island style, if you had to take that Jurassic Park Pro or that Willy Wonka Standard and you had to plug that game into a palm tree and play it every single day for a year, which game would you play? Now, I'm asking you anything. No, no, you're just elaborating. Well, I'm just trying to make it more final. Like, there can't be any candy-coated answer here. There can't be, well, I have this, but I totally want this. This is it, dude. One of these machines will never exist. How's that? Jurassic Park goes away forever like it never happened, or Willy Wonka goes away forever like it never happened. Oh, man, I just got sick in here. It did get sick in here. Whoa. The final. Albert, I'm sorry. I'm totally sabotaging your question, but this is helping me to get to know you better. Okay, all right. So full transparency, they did come out with another Jurassic Park in the 90s, so I would go with Willy Wonka. Whoa. Because I could still get a Jurassic Park. It just wouldn't be the one that I really want. So it's based on theme and not on, like, gameplay and put them to experience? I mean, the Stern Pro Jurassic Park's better than the Data East one, right? Oh, wait. Well, dude, it's way better. But you're still saying there's not a Willy Wonka. Yeah, exactly. Is Willy Wonka a huge theme for you? Like, are you in love with that theme? Because I really like it. Okay. Wow. I totally coughed me up. See, now that's a great question, Orby. Thank you. That's awesome. When you put it that way, yeah, that would be my final answer. Okay. And I appreciate the truthfulness. That's huge. All right. You ready to go to the next one? But it's only because I could still get a Jurassic Park, pin sound it, throw the color DMD in it. Yeah. You know. I got you. So I could still get my fix, but. Right. That's a crummy, crummy question right there, but okay. I love the question. I would go Willy Wonka. I would keep Willy Wonka. I would buy Willy Wonka. And Jurassic Park is a fantastic game. I am having so much fun playing Jurassic Park. And I'm upset that the one that we have here, you bought, because I think I would have tried to snag that one. Not to say that I can't get another one, but it's just convenient because it's already here in the studio. Yeah. That being said, when Willy Wonka came out, it had such an impression on me, and I kind of relayed my original thoughts on that game as I was still on this emotional high about it. And the thing is this, man, I haven't really backed down or retracted on anything that I originally said. I still love the game. I don't mind where the code's at. The sound is what was asked of Vikas Deo. So the sound isn't ideal for what we're used to in pinball. I still think that it does its job as far as drawing attention to the machine. The more I've played it, the more I've kind of appreciated some of those sounds. It's an experience. It's a pinball experience, man. I'm loving Willy Wonka. I love it. the experience you get from playing that game is awesome okay now i think i i i don't know i mean they both shoot really really well i i'm so torn on that you know i'm gonna stay i'm gonna shut up dude because part of me wants to change my answer and go back to jurassic park now you can because we're gonna go to question number three if you want to switch it this is your last chance i am going to stay willy wonka but i'm loving the heck out of jurassic park it'd be tough uh but for me It would be to keep Willy Wonka. You know, it's honestly that damn intro music. Do, do, do, do, do, do, you know, from Willy Wonka. Right when you hit start? Dude, you just feel immersed into that. Oh, yeah, you do. You know? I think you feel immersed playing JP a little more, though. Yeah, it's, I feel what? I think as far as the game. Immersed? I think you feel more immersed in Jurassic Park throughout the game than you do. I don't know if I do. Because it's not – I guess in the park in general, I guess, suppose. I mean, because it's not a movie-based pin. No. Wonka is a movie-based pin, and I do feel like I'm in part of the movie, but I do feel like I'm in the chocolate factory. So do I feel like I'm more in the chocolate factory than I feel that I am in Jurassic Park? I don't know. I never thought about it that way. But that's not the decision that I'm making on the pinball machine. I'm talking about the overall pinball experience. They're both out of the park. I would not be disappointed on either, but if I had to make that decision, I would select to play Willy Wonka for a year versus Jurassic Park. Here's the pisser of this one, dude. I feel like I'm trying to choose between two kids. Which one do you love more? Yeah, that's true. Your oldest or youngest, man. Yeah. No good. And you'll be doing that pretty soon. Let's go to call number three. Yeah, my name is Zach Minney. I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller. Thanks for taking my message, as if it was really that much work for you guys. I've got a couple questions for you. Number one, Bill, Bill, Bill. You have a lot of famous saying and quips, if you will, one of them being, you know, this isn't a kidney or a liver. Now, what happens, Bill, if it was a kidney or it was a liver? What do you use then? Also, Bill, you always say you can't buy that kind of passion. I've heard that before. You just can't buy that kind of passion. Well, Bill, let's say you could. Hypothetically, let's say you could buy that kind of passion. How much would it go for? $1,000? $20,000? If it's not a liver or kidney, how much would it cost me to buy that type of passion? In all seriousness, a question I have for you guys. You guys are my favorite pinball stream channel. I'm not biased, right? So, Ken, Bill, who would be your dream guest, if you will, on the Flippin' Out pinball streaming channel? I'm going to hang up. Oh, last one. Ken, you really get Bill fired up. You get him giving you that stink eye that only Bill Webb can. Can you name some of the things that really set Bill Webb off? I'm going to hang up and let you know. Thanks, guys. Bye. Oh, so there's Zach Menny, the host of This Week in Pinball, straight down the middle of Pinball Show, YouTube, and owner of Flippin' Out Pinball. Keeps it real with his questions. He's opening up a little bit of interesting information there. So he wants to know about the liver, the kidney, how much it costs to buy that kind of passion. Do you have any comments on those early in the call? Liver, kidney?
    43:59
    No, I don't. I really don't. That's fine. Those are life-altering things versus non-life-altering things. Is there a price on passion?
    44:08
    I don't think there is. How can you put a price on passion? You can't because you can't buy it or being out of love. You can't buy someone's love, right? Right. You know, when someone says you can't buy happiness, well, that's, you know, kind of bullshit. You're saying no amount of money can trigger an emotion for some people. Not for a work ethic on something like this. I get it. Can you buy happiness? Absolutely, dude. You can buy a jet dragster, stick somebody in the seat and see a big old smile. Well, if you're clinically depressed, no amount of money would necessarily pull you out of depression. so i mean like i can see where there's the final it's like my passion's got to come from the heart not from the wallet right money can't buy happiness right but it can buy a boat it can buy a jet ski sure as hell can buy a round world trip uh you know so you can buy some some happiness with that gotcha gotcha passion to do some of this stuff no man yeah that's true you can't buy somebody's motivation sometimes uh he now he did ask us with the pinball streaming who would be our ideal guests or our dream guests to have on a pinball stream with us. And what do you think about that? So I'm going to ask you this question, but I'm going to flip it. Okay. We're going to make this a two-part question. Okay. Either the person, you can choose a person that's alive. Okay. Or someone that is no longer here. Oh, wow. Well, okay. Okay. Interesting. All right. So I would probably want to, somebody alive or dead? Yes. I didn't even think that far ahead about somebody that's dead. I guess I'd like to stream pinball with Scott Weiland of Stone Temple Pilots, but he's not been answering my calls. He's not been answering anyone's calls, man. Don't feel like you're off the island or anything. So that'd be kind of cool. But you can go back to history. I mean, I could stream with anybody. I mean, that would be pretty remarkable. I could stream with a past president of the United States. um i could stream with a former rock star or or a tv uh sensation and idol or i mean that could be anything from a pinball standpoint though and and i'll you know ask the question your way also for me like maybe a dream stream right now and this is somebody that we've already had on the podcast uh it would be streaming with brian eddie and it would be streaming like off of his attack from Mars or off of his medieval madness.
    46:27
    I know he's working on something right now that's supposed to be coming out at some point. I don't know what it is. And that would be fun to stream that, too. But I think having streaming Brian Eddy and like on his original machine that he says that he has the photo machine, the machine they use for the promo photos that he says is pristine. And he says that he still has the attack from Mars mothership that originally would come out and go back and forth around and hover on the play field. I mean, that would be a dream stream to stream with Brian on his original machine. I think that would be really, really cool. As far as somebody that's alive or dead, I haven't given it that much thought, but I would just go short term. Somebody that I always wanted to meet and met two weeks before he died, it was Scott Weiland, and I don't know. I'd probably would. I'd like to just stream something. He probably doesn't even know what the hell pinball is, but I'd stream a little Scott Weiland pinball. What about you, Bill? Dream stream and dream stream with somebody that might be alive or dead. All right. So dream stream with somebody that's not present. I would love to stream something like a medieval madness with Harry Williams. Okay. What is it about Harry Williams that appeals to you? Dude, he started an empire. Right. Dude, he started with the game Contact.
    47:42
    Yeah. Dude, just to be able to stream that game with him and let people ask him questions. It's a wealth of knowledge, dude. Like, you know, you started this in a bad time and you left the company to start this business. Right. You know, how do you feel knowing that, you know, I mean, honestly, this company is still alive today. They're just doing different things. Right. It's just it's evolved into so many different companies, but the product is still there. Yeah, correct. I mean, companies would buy and sell. And what machine would you stream with him? Attack from Mars, you said? No. Medieval Madness. All right. So let me ask you this. Two dreams, dreams. And you've got to be real careful with the answer. Okay. Because it's got to be honest. Harry Williams on Medieval Madness on stream or Jamie Webb streaming Wizard of Oz your wife out of the basement? Harry Williams. Really? Yeah.
    48:27
    I don't have to stream. I was given an opportunity there. Every once in a while we will. Hey, and my wife. We'll go downstairs and play Wizard of Oz. Okay. That's fine.
    48:37
    Yeah, no, man. I'm just curious. Yeah, dude. There's one that will happen and there's one that could never happen. So, yeah. So, Harry Williams is not with us anymore. So, what about somebody that's with us? Who would you like to stream with?
    48:46
    Um, probably Roger Sharp, man. Yeah, Roger Sharp would be awesome to stream pinball with. But it has to be a game that he got the license for. So you couldn't do, like, Medieval Madness or Attack from Mars. Those games weren't licensed. But I'm pretty sure he did get the license for Wizard of Oz, which would be pretty awesome to play that game with him. Or Terminator 2. Something like that. What if he streamed Cyclops, a game that he designed with Roger Sharp? That would be pretty cool, too. And I think, consequently, that is the favorite game of the Sharp brothers.
    49:16
    is Cyclops, the game that their dad created. I wasn't even thinking that, but that's a great point. Dude, honestly, streaming anything with him would be fine. Yeah, he's such a good conversationalist, and he's such a well-rounded individual in general. You just feel better about yourself for being around the guy. Well, dude, we had dinner with him, and we were thinking, you know, maybe an hour or two. It was like three and a half hours we were sitting down talking about everything from the past to, you know, shot heard around the pinball world anyways, to, you know, modern-day stuff and what he likes and dislikes. And he's just got a way about him that, Even if he thinks you're completely wrong, it's just his wording is so brilliant on stuff. I could see that stream being a six-hour stream if we let it run its course. I would love it. I would love to have Roger Sharp on a little after hours where he could sit down and take the call-in segments, and that would be kind of fun, too. Oh, absolutely. That's Roger Sharp. Now, the other question is what makes you tick, essentially? And what makes you give that look? Now, you've got the look about you. Now, we've known each other for, I don't know what, two or three years, right? Yeah. And there always comes a time where I see this look that shoots out of your face, and it always takes me by surprise because I'm not used to seeing the look. And about half the times it's because of something that I say on the podcast, and the other half the times it's something that happens with somebody else in general, but I'm able to catch the glare and I understand. I know a couple things. Bill does not like his name being called while he's playing pinball. That upsets him. He does not like that. We've seen that on stream where if he's playing and somebody says Bill, it gets him a little bit upset. And then other than that, though, I'm trying to think of anything that occasionally I'll put you on the spot about something or I'll call something out like, for instance, the video quality of Jurassic Park on the original game. I know that probably annoys you a little bit. No, I don't think you catch my evil eye on that deal. I think when we catch somebody in a bold-faced lie and you just see me look at them staring into their soul like you're such a tool bag. The look is awesome. I would try to capture it on camera, but it's like one of those things where you just really can't. It's like trying to get Bigfoot or a UFO on camera. That was one of the funniest things I think you had ever told me. Ken and I were in a situation. We were around somebody, and I know they were kind of just bold-faced lying, and I had this look on me, I guess. And Ken the next morning was like, dude, the look on your face is priceless when you just want to stab somebody.
    51:35
    Literally looked at you, wanted to grab a shank and take something down. Absolutely. I was thinking about sharpening a toothbrush and everything. It was a good time. I had to put away all the unused Popsicle sticks down here in the basement in the studio. What the hell studio is this? I had to put all the Popsicle sticks away in the studio that day. So that's going to wrap it up. A little Ask Us Anything again. It's not necessarily going to be a reoccurring segment, but if you have any questions for myself and Bill, whether they're pinball-related or not, please go ahead, call on the line, 630-283-2888. Leave that voicemail, and you may hear your question on a future show.
    52:12
    So, Bill, before we kind of get to the back end of the show here, I wanted to give everybody a quick update because we've gotten a lot of user email about the frozen pizza bracket that we talked about two episodes back.
    52:24
    And so what we've decided to do with this frozen pizza bracket, based on the emails that we've received and based on sales demographics over the last several years, we're going to go ahead. we're going to compile a field of 32 and we are going to allow you the listener, the opportunity to kind of pick and choose your bracket champion. And then we're going to, we're going to go ahead and we're going to hail one frozen pizza as a, as a frozen pizza tournament champion of 2019 with the, and then we're going to take one winner who selected the actual winner. And we're going to give you a special one, lip pinball podcast, t-shirt a little bit of a swag bag. and we are going to give you a one-month supply of that frozen pizza.
    53:06
    Pretty impressive, isn't it? How many comes in one month supply? I hope party pizza wins because that's like a buck. So the frozen pizza, it's going to come to two frozen pizzas a week for 4.3 weeks. So that's what you're going to receive. Okay. And what we'll actually end up doing is I've got a way to be able to get those pizzas to you without any type of food poisoning going. But it's going to be fun, so I encourage you to hang tight. when we list the bracket go ahead and enter and if you want to share it with somebody else you can it's not a big deal uh but we'll be able to track those that have that have entered or their uh selections and then we'll we'll go ahead and we're listen and this we're not going to do this is just me and this is nothing against any other other pinball podcast but like when you break down a bracket whether it be for pinball this or like i don hearing all I don like walking through the bracket So it just going to be like listen these are the last four that were selected and this is the champion. I mean, that's it. We're going to cover that in like three minutes. We're going to draw a winner. You'll get the pinball podcast T-shirt. You will get the pinball podcast swag bag, and then we will give you the one-month supply of the frozen pizza that had won because in order to qualify and actually win, you have to be able to pick the winner that everybody else had kind of picked. But I encourage you to be truthful. And where else are you going to win pizza? Then a pinball podcast, right? Yeah. See, now this is nice because when we were sponsored by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, we could not ship beer. No. I mean, we could have, but it's generally frowned upon within the U.S. Postal Service. But if I frowned upon, probably illegal. With pizzas and dry ice and all that stuff now, we're able to figure that out. And we might be able to do something a little bit different, too. Or maybe we'll be able to send out some Lou Malnati's. So if you're outside of the Chicago area, maybe we send you a Lou Malnati's pizza.
    55:00
    That would be kind of cool, too. Yeah. We could set it up where you get your choice. Yeah, months apply if you're frozen because it'll probably end up costing the same. It will. Or we'll ship you a Chicago Deep Dish Luminati. That's like $100 to ship that pizza. Yeah, good deal. All right, so we'll figure that out, but we're going to send out a prize pack for that. Let's play a little Drain It or Save It. You ready for that? Let's do it. All right.
    55:24
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. So, Bill, one of our favorite segments, Orbital Albert's favorite segment, or one of his favorite segments in pinball podcasting, is the Drain It or Save It. So we appreciate that. And we're going to start off today with pin golfs, Bill. Drain It or Save It pin golfs. For those of you that don't know what a pin golf is, you can go to pinballlife.com. Not a sponsor of the show. And you can order a pin golf. And essentially, it's a cup holder that screws on to the leg bolts of the left or the right of your machine to hold your favorite beverage. So the Drain It or Save It is this, Bill. So pin golfs must be installed on the right side and not the left side of your pinball machine. Save it. Save it on the right side. Why? Because that's where all mine are. But why are they there? Because I'm right-handed, dude, so I'm typically holding my drink with my right hand anyway. Okay. But you're not holding your drink while you're playing pinball? No. I mean, it could be on the left. I prefer the right. Unless you're playing Oktoberfest.
    56:29
    Yes. Ooh. Yeah. Then that could be crazy. Go back and watch that stream. Right. But, yeah, honestly, I like it on the right. All your machines are on the right? Every single one. Okay. So once you pick a side, you kind of go with the side. Yes. I got a left-handed side one from a game that I purchased. Dude, that's literally on the Terminator that I have at work for people to play because I can't. It's like your beater pin golf. It would get thrown away otherwise. All right. So you're saving it. Pin golfs are installed on the right side. Yes. I'm going to drain this, Bill. Okay. Because you know why? They have to go on the left side. And I'm going to tell you exactly why they've got to go on the left. Because on the right-hand side, guess what's also on the right-hand side of that pinball machine? I know, the shooter. The shooter, the plunger. Yeah. And after a couple beers, I've got some buddies that, by trying to put that beer down in that freaking cup holder, will hit that plunger. I guarantee it. I might even be able to do it. But the left side's free and clear. I go ahead. The only thing I'm going to hit is a start button. And if I'm starting another game, I'm happy to do so because I've got a beer in my hand anyway. So all my cup holders go on the left-hand side. So where you're going to save the right side, I'm going to drain the right side. You're going to drain your friends. I'm going to drain them. Oh, you know what? My friends aren't going to be banging up my shooters and spilling beer all over my pinball machines.
    57:40
    Whatever, man. Right. Where's my dirty look for those people? Don't spill beer on my machines. I can't like it. Yeah. As my daughter would say, I can't like it. You know what, man? I haven't had that problem at my house. All right. How about this? Number two. We're going to see Elvira 3 from Stern Pinball revealed at Pinball Expo this October. Drain it. Drain it? Why? Bill! What are we in now? We just entered into September. Jurassic Park came out last month. So we've got September, October, middle October. We're not due for a little semi-teaser reveal from Star Pinball. We won't see a thing before Expo. Well, at Expo, though. I am going off of history. Dude, the last game they showed at an Expo was Batman 66. Yes, it was. And it wasn't quite ready. During the anniversary. It didn't flip. It wasn't, but it was behind the red ropes, and it sold decently. I'm not saying it didn't, but, dude, they haven't done that since, man. It's always been like the first week of November. But Zavira, I mean, it's a pretty big deal. It's Dennis Norman and Greg Freres. I would love to be wrong on this, but I'm going off of history and saying drain it. So you're going to drain it? All right, I'm going to drain it too. And it's because you're absolutely right. History has shown us that Stern Pinball has not revealed a game at Expo as much as it kills me, man. Because this is the thing. I know Stern doesn't have to rely on a pinball show in order to reveal a game. We get it. You know what I mean? You can reveal it at Comic-Con or you can reveal it at Filene's basement opening in Pennsylvania. And you're going to sell as many games as you can because of social media and because of IGN.com with those uploads. But listen, I'm pleading with Stern here. I'm not pleading with Stern. I'm just telling you this as somebody that lives locally. And Pinball Expo, with it being at one time the leading industry show, it's where all the industry would gather. And not necessarily all the pinball fanatics. The industry would go there. and they would show off what they had for those that were buying the distributors and some of the consumers. I would love to see a reveal at Expo from Stern, and I would love for them to be able to do that at their hometown Expo where they're 30 minutes away. And whether or not it happens, I don't know. I'm going to drain it. I don't think Elvira 3 gets revealed at Expo, and if it does, I couldn't be more happy to be incorrect on what I think is going to happen. But I do hope that some point down the road that Stern is able to kind of give us something at Expo because I think it's such an important show, and I think that that show is revitalizing itself as something that's more important than maybe it has been with the exception of last year. I thought it was a nice little rebound. Let's see Expo on fire. Let's see Stern pinball. Jersey Jack has revealed games there. Let's see Spooky here. Come on, Spooky pinball. I mean, you guys are local, and I know you've got MGC, which is like your Wisconsin show, but please bring us something over to Expo. Let's see American Pinball. They did Oktoberfest here. So, I mean, we've got manufacturers that are revealing at Expo, but let's have all the manufacturers, maybe not every single year, but let's not make a conscious effort not to reveal something at Expo because it is an Expo. Stern doesn't reveal anything at any Expos. The one last time Stern even revealed at TPS. Right, that's what I'm saying. They don't reveal anything at any Expos. I know they don't need to I just don't understand Why you wouldn't consider doing that For the fans For the fanfare For the enthusiasts That come out to these shows To see these reveals I think the last Expo Or reveal That we saw at a show To your point Was probably Batman 66 Yeah And that was years ago So I don't know Just as an enthusiast And I go to these shows I like to see the manufacturers Bringing out new stuff Hey And if you can't bring a machine How about we bring out The Star Wars topper To Expo this year And let's have those for sale There you go You know Park those behind the bench and let's get those going. Something new and exciting. Anyways. Or like 10 Ghostbusters toppers. One that says Bill Webb. Oh, there you go. There you go. Some topper vault additions for you, right? Absolutely. Let's go to the third one. And that is this, Bill. American Pinball will contract manufacturer for another party in 2020. Drain it or save it. American Pinball will be a contract manufacturer for another company sometime in the year 2020. I know where you're leading this, but I'm going to drain it. I don't think it will happen this year. Oh, I don't know that I was leading it, though. What am I leading? Maybe Big Lebowski's getting made. No, I don't think that's going to happen. Although I think that makes the most sense. I don't think that's going to happen. That's why I thought you might be watching this question, too. No, so you're draining it? I'm going to drain that. I don't think they are. Okay. I'm going to say that I think that you will see some type of contract manufacturing out of American Pinball in 2020. And maybe it's a homebrew. Or maybe it's just, maybe it is like somebody that's coming in with Big Lebowski's or Predators that has an agreement in place. and they're looking. This is the thing, Bill. We heard about this transition to this new huge facility over at American Pinball, and they're working on their next game, and I get it. But if you've got three lines and one is open to contract manufacturing, how do you not utilize the line? So if somebody has an approach to American Pinball to do this, I think American Pinball has to actively go into the community and find what makes the most sense for not only the person that owns that original IP, but for themselves and always have a line going. I agree with you, but here's the thing that I kind of run with in my head why I'm banking on no. So let's just say that they actually moved into that building by January. I know it's supposed to be sooner, but let's just give a hard deadline, January 1, they're in the new building. And you're going to start making airplane pins from the homebird. Oh, yeah, okay. Let's say that. How about the Nightmare Before Christmas? Because I've heard that discussed. Okay, there you go. Nightmare Before Christmas. How long is it going to take you to get to playfields? how long is it going to take to get all those parts. Exactly my point, though. So you could be anywhere from three months to nine months out on parts alone. Right. Maybe this has already been happening behind the lines, and that would allow us to see something being manufactured. Now, I'm not saying something's released in 2020, but do we see that line going for contract manufacturing in 2020? Because I don't think anything would happen for the first nine months, I'm going to bank on no. Okay. Well, I mean, but we're still a few months out of 2020, and then we've got 12 more months to go. Yeah. September, October, November, December. So you're not going to see that lineup for contract manufacturing in the next 16 months? Dude, I think we should start a new thing in the new podcast studio starting in October. A fourth line of contract manufacturing. Whenever you and I have a disagreement, we place a dollar on a pin on the wall and write a date on there and what the dollar's for. Okay. And then at the end of the year, we use that dollar to give away the crown for the frozen pizza tournament bracket champion. No, whoever, you know, if I was right on contract manufacturing. Oh. Dude, we've had lots of burrito bets that we've stopped keeping track of. Some of these are more predictions than they are personal feelings. But this is kind of like a personal feeling slash prediction. So, yeah, I can see that. So we can, yeah, we'll do that. I think that's a cool idea. All right. Like a dollar for the kangaroo court. We'll keep track. And then at the end of the year, we'll see who was right and who was wrong. And whoever gets the $32. That's hanging on the ceiling. Which is more bragging rights than anything else. So, all right, let's go ahead and recap. We had pin golfs always have to be on the right side of your machine. Bill saves it. I drained it. Elvira 3 is going to be revealed at Pinball Expo in October of this year. We both drained it. And American Pinball will contract manufacturer, and we'll see that line running in 2020. Bill drains it, and I save it, and that's going to wrap up. Drain it or save it by LearnMods.com. So, Bill, outside of the news here as we get ready to kind of wrap up this episode, it's a fun episode, right? It's a little bit different. Yeah, good time, man. I know ideally we'd like to have a lot of hot topics that we can kind of play off each other on. I think we're kind of wrapping up on clear-coding because, frankly – Until there's something to report, there's not a whole lot to say right now. We've said what we've said, and in no way have we tried to hinder a pinball company. In no way have we told anybody not to buy a pinball machine. I'm just personally saying my dollars will go to the company that I feel stands behind their product the most. And guess what? It is what it is. I still don't regret my decision for buying JP. No, no. And this JP right here is going to be transferred out of your house because on the Flippin' On Streaming Network, we've been streaming. Pinball, listen, you guys know this. Go to twitch.tv slash flip letter N out pinball.com. Follow us there because when we go live, it's a live podcast and it's a live pinball stream. So you can go ahead. You'll get a notification if you follow us when we go live. So you can kind of click on it. And then you can actually interject with us in chat, or you can interact with us in chat, and we can have a conversation, or you can call in because we've got that after-hours show where we actually take calls and all that kind of stuff. It's pretty fun. But you can find us also on Facebook, Special When Lit Pinball Podcast, or you can find us via email. Oh, yeah, Instagram. What's up with Instagram? Special When Lit Pinball. That's been rocking. Special When Lit Pinball. Yep. Wildly popular Instagram run by Bill Wynn. You know what, honestly, dude, every couple hours I'm getting pings on it. Follows? Yeah. Damn, that's good. It was funny because I got solicited for another distributor trying to solicit pinball machines to me. You know, hey, who do you use for your pinball needs? That's somebody that does not listen to our show, obviously. Doesn't listen to the show. You know, tried walking them into, like, you know, hey, you know, we already stream. Is it a well-known distributor? I'm not going to say it online because I'm not going to. Oh, okay. We'll talk off. Drain it or save it. That was a well-known distributor. Yeah. OK. OK. Well, I don't know. Hey, whatever they got to do to drum up business, man. So we every so often we talk about how surprised we are about the show and about the the when I say popularity, I mean, probably more of the appreciation of the show. And we have continuously seen some nice increase in listenership. I don't think I'd like to let the show go by without asking everybody that's kind of gotten aboard this family. Thanks for joining and thanks for coming along for the ride. And for those that have been here from the beginning, thanks for being longtime supporters. Because this is it, man. We've got a podcast that we're doing for ourselves, but we're doing it for everybody else that listens. It's not myself and Bill's show. It's our show. So everybody that's here and that listens plays a part. We've got a very active community in regards to emails and Facebook and that sort of thing. And that drives so much of the show, too. It totally is. User content is pretty big for us. Yeah. And that's kind of what we aspire to do. We're not the number one news covering podcast. I mean, Twip's got that covered with Zach and Dennis. Those guys do a great job of that. But it's fun to pluck a story from there every so often that interests us on a level in which we want to discuss. And then obviously we've got our own content. So it is what it is, and it's fun, and we're really having fun doing this. Absolutely. So thank you. yeah without you guys uh listening i don't you know the show wouldn't be what it is and especially with what you contribute so thank you as well now it's funny now as we say that i went back and uh i was looking at i feel like i'm gonna sneeze here or something because i like i've got a bad allergy day going on and i normally don't have allergies but for some reason today i've got some allergies but i was online last night and i clicked on something pinball and on google right i typed something pinball and special when lit pinball podcast came up and i'm like oh that's kind of crazy that like this google search brought special one lit up and when i clicked on it it was our itunes reviews for itunes i don't want i don't know if i want to hear this but okay i so in all fairness i hadn't looked at the itunes reviews for our show in a long time now when we first started the show like itunes was something that we wanted to make sure that we were on it was a platform for our show and of course it was important that we had good reviews i think at this point like we're secure enough and what we're doing as a show and collectively and with our listeners that i I mean, if there are bad reviews, it doesn't affect us as personally as it probably would have early on. I'd agree. But there's one guy on there, and it's great because we have like one or two one-star reviews. And one of the guys that gave us a one-star review, I think our overall review was like 4.7 out of five stars. Okay. I'll take it, right? But the guy's like, this podcast has no backbone, complete waste of time, no thanks. And I'm like, wow, man, that's totally harsh. And he just left this in July. so like i'm trying to think what was going on in july we're like we had no backbone because if anything i think we've grown as a podcast whereas we're still pinball enthusiasts we're a lot more liberal with our feelings than we initially were absolutely but i mean we're not as concerned about offending somebody because the way in which we express our thoughts are not in my opinion shouldn't be considered offensive uh we we try to do this in a professional way in a respectful manner so it's just called a disagreement it's not called being disrespectful but when i saw this it It was funny, and for the life of me, I can't figure out what it was. I have a feeling I know what this was. What was it? Is that the guy that I said, you know, you don't enjoy Star Wars? What did you program? Was it that guy? No, no, no, no. It wasn't this guy. It wasn't. But then so I went to a couple other podcasts, and this guy was saying the same thing about some other shows. But then there were some shows where he was saying the opposite. It was great. Oh, great backbone. This is the show to listen to. So it was just interesting to see how one person looks at Pinball Podcasts. He appreciates somebody that's a little bit more outspoken and in your face. And I can totally appreciate that. Versus somebody like myself and yourself where we've got our feelings, but we're not going to blow it down somebody's... We try and be careful in how we approach things. Respectful, more so than careful. Because we said this before, if we can't be true to ourselves, how can we be true to you guys? And literally, I mean, why would we do a podcast if we can't tell the truth? Because if I'm just going to launch a show and lie and shill for people, it just doesn't make any sense. So I don't know. I don't even know why I went into that story. We were talking about Apple reviews. So, yeah. So, hey, if you're listening to us on iTunes, please consider giving us a review, good, bad, or ugly. And if you have a sense of humor, please put in there, this show does have a backbone. Yeah, right. The biggest backbone of pinball podcasting. So it's good times. But it is what it is, man. And, again, thanks to everybody for coming along for the ride. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. Happy Labor Day, everybody.