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Episode 115 - Jurassic Showdown!

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 27m·analyzed·May 16, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

CNET's Jeff Bacalar discusses his top 10 pinball machines and recent hobby involvement with hosts Dennis and Tony.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers Podcast episode featuring guest Jeff Bacalar (CNET editor, BeastCast host) discussing his 2019 top 10 pinball machines list. The conversation covers his pinball background, ownership of Willy Wonka (Jersey Jack loan), Funhouse, Deadpool, and Jurassic Park (Stern), competitive play considerations, and detailed analysis of games from his list including Batman (Data East), Whitewater, Dialed In! (Jersey Jack), and World Cup Soccer. News includes TWIP's new promoter database and Pinberg ReplayFX's cancellation.

Key Claims

  • Pinberg ReplayFX, the world's largest pinball tournament slated for over 1,000 players in early July, has been formally canceled

    high confidence · Dennis announcement during news segment; cited as response to pandemic emergency provisions

  • Ken Cromwell raised over fifty thousand dollars through a charity campaign for Project Pinball to place machines in children's hospitals

    high confidence · Dennis statement; described as 'the most successful charitable event I know of that's happened in pinball'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball loaned Willy Wonka to Jeff Bacalar for a CNET feature

    high confidence · Jeff's direct statement; noted excellent timing during lockdown

  • Jeff Bacalar currently owns four pinball machines: Willy Wonka (loaned from JJP), Funhouse, Stern Deadpool (Pro), and Stern Jurassic Park (Premium)

    high confidence · Jeff's detailed ownership disclosure

  • This Week in Pinball (TWIP) has released a new promoter database similar to iTunes reviews for podcasts, streamers, and YouTube channels

    high confidence · Dennis announcement; described as positive so far without turning into 'toxic wasteland'

  • Dennis owns eight pinball machines but has room for only seven

    high confidence · Dennis disclosure during personal collection discussion

  • Tony won a 'Build a Bank' game on episode 114 with 80% of the Facebook vote

    high confidence · Dennis announcement; noted Tony may have won with different game selections like Pirates of the Caribbean or Stars

Notable Quotes

  • “I do have that right now um i have a funhouse machine that through uh an amazingly generous beast cast uh listener was able to sort of uh you know put me into uh ownership of that and i also have a stern deadpool and a stern jurassic park pro models”

    Jeff Bacalar @ mid-episode — Documents guest's current pinball ownership and community support received

  • “i think with pinball it's such a different kind of medium because you're just not you just can't rent the game that everyone's talking about you just can't go and buy the game everyone's talking about”

    Jeff Bacalar @ game discussion — Key insight into pinball's unique market positioning relative to video games; explains personal/nostalgic nature of lists

  • “for me batman's here because i i grew up playing this game year after year in in ocean city new jersey and playing it once or twice a year you know over the course of 20 years”

    Jeff Bacalar @ Batman discussion — Illustrates deeply personal, nostalgia-driven nature of pinball preferences and long-term venue relationships

  • “I remember playing for the first time being like, I've never seen something like this in a pinball machine before”

    Jeff Bacalar @ Dialed In discussion — Documents impact of Jersey Jack's technological innovations in modern pinball design

  • “i think with dialed in you know there's something about uh i think this is a game and the way i look at a lot of jersey jack stuff is that there's a certain level of like you know modern technology that I think pinball machines kind of broke through in the last decade or so”

    Jeff Bacalar @ Dialed In analysis — Indicates JJP positioned as leader in modern pinball technology integration circa 2019

  • “for me personally I just find that game to just be hard and um the challenge here is something that i really really dig in the way that like a game like bloodborne you know would just have you relentlessly kind of coming back to”

    Jeff Bacalar @ Funhouse discussion — Draws parallel between pinball difficulty and video game design philosophy; indicates difficulty as core appeal

Entities

Jeff BacalarpersonDennispersonTonypersonKen CromwellpersonJack DangerpersonPat LawlorpersonDennis Nordmanperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Personnel move: Ken Cromwell transitioned from pinball podcast co-host role to Jersey Jack Pinball communication specialist position

    high · Dennis: 'I used to co-host over with ken cromwell who's now their communication specialist'; Jeff seeking outreach through Ken to Jersey Jack

  • ?

    community_signal: This Week in Pinball (TWIP) launched promoter database similar to iTunes reviews, allowing community to rate/review podcasts, streamers, and YouTube channels; early adoption positive

    high · Dennis: 'This Week in Pinball...have released a new promoter database...And so far, it hasn't turned into a toxic wasteland. It looks pretty positive to me.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Competitive player ecosystem at Stern includes multiple top-ranked tournament players on payroll (Keith Elwin, Zach Sharp, Tim Sexton); indicates talent consolidation strategy

    high · Dennis: 'Keith Elwin, I think, generally agreed upon as being the greatest player in the history of the entire game ever, works there for Stern now. Tim Sexton...he is a top-level player...Zach Sharp...has won Pinnberg'

  • ?

    community_signal: Ken Cromwell's charitable initiative (Project Pinball) raised $50,000+ placing machines in children's hospitals—largest documented pinball charity effort

    high · Dennis: 'Ken and ken's great he was a it's really unfortunate because of course he had to he had to hang up the microphone when he went to join with a with a manufacturer but he was a pillar for pinball hobbyists as podcaster he raised over fifty thousand dollars with a charity campaign for project pinball'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.262

0:00
Howdy folks, Generic Cowboy here, telling you that this episode of the Eclectic Gamers Podcast is brought to you by the Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia. Roanoke Pinball Museum, it's an interactive museum, it's sort of dedicated to the science and the history of pinball. It's mission is to cultivate curiosity in science, art, and history through pinball, but while preserving and honoring its role in American culture. The museum is open every day except Monday, and it houses over 65 machines with models ranging from 1932 to 2018. I sure hope to have a buckaroo. Roanoke Pinball Museum, your world of entertainment awaits.
0:52
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Friday, May 7th, 15th, 15th, and it's episode 115. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis, and we have a guest. We have a special guest. We have Jeff Bacalar, who is editor-at-large over with CNET, and he is a host on the podcast called Giant Beatscast, and we have him on because purportedly he's a pinball fan, but we're going to find that out. We'll put that name to the test, but welcome aboard, Jeff. thank you guys for having me it is true i am known to be a pinball enthusiast and uh hopefully i will not disappoint you but i i do that sometimes so just fair warning you disappoint me sometimes not you personally i don't know to disappoint people but look that's not what we're here to talk about no no and in fact i i reached out because i remember reading and we're going to talk about it in a little bit but i remember reading your top 10 pinball machines as a 2019 article that you had released back in December. Yes. And so that is what put you on my radar, though I found out after the fact that Tony is familiar with your podcast. Yeah. Oh, right on. Cool.
2:01
Yeah, both BeastCast and BombCast were some of my primary video game-related podcasts that I partake of. Oh, excellent. partook of when I had the chance to before I before I sat in an office and do meetings all day now now that I do that it's it's I don't have the time I used to but I always make sure yeah it's super weird because I feel like ever since uh we went into lockdown I feel like my podcast consumption I mean to my chagrin has like plummeted I just feel like now that I'm home 24-7 and I don't have a commute into Manhattan every day. I'm just sort of missing out on the podcast that I had so often gone through. It's a weird dynamic change for sure. It's not just you. In fact, I've noticed our listener numbers have fallen since the pandemic has started. And I actually host over with the Pinball Show, which is on the Pinball Network, and our numbers over there have fallen as well. And I don't think it's just my performance, though that may be maybe in part maybe in part the motivation this may sound i meant this could end up sounding really weird because it may be way off base but i'm really digging back into my memory tony is this beast cast bomb cast thing is this the ones that put out the video of the like the where they take like two weeks and debate best game of the year or whatever that you love to watch every second of oh my yeah okay all right that makes more sense yeah all right so thankfully I'm not personally involved in that element of what those guys do because if I was, I would lose my mind.

  • “Ken Cromwell who's now their communication specialist so okay ken i know you're listening and i know you skipped the video game segment but come on man”

    Dennis @ Jersey Jack discussion — Confirms Ken Cromwell's employment transition to Jersey Jack Pinball in communication role

  • “Pinberg is the world's largest pinball tournament. It was slated to have over 1,000 players in early July, and that has been canceled”

    Dennis @ News segment — Documents major industry event cancellation due to pandemic

    • John Papaduke
    person
    Keith Elwinperson
    Zach Sharpperson
    Tim Sextonperson
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    This Week in Pinballorganization
    Pinberg ReplayFXevent
    Silver Ball Museumorganization
    Game Vaultorganization
    Roanoke Pinball Museumorganization
    Project Pinballorganization
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Willy Wonkagame
    Dialed Ingame
    Whitewatergame
    World Cup Soccergame

    competitive_signal: John Papaduke game evaluation split: competitive players divided into two schools—World Cup Soccer ruleset vs. Circus Voltaire ruleset advocates; Theater of Magic/Tales of the Arabian Nights have problematic rulesets

    medium · Dennis: 'there pretty much are two schools of thought amongst competitive players there are those that think world cup soccer was the best game from john papaduke because of the rule set it got and then there are those that think circus voltaire is'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jersey Jack Pinball identified as technological innovator in modern pinball design; Dialed In cited as breakthrough game introducing unfamiliar technology/mechanics to the medium

    medium · Jeff: 'there's a certain level of like you know modern technology that I think pinball machines kind of broke through in the last decade or so...with Dialed In...I remember playing for the first time being like, I've never seen something like this in a pinball machine before'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinberg ReplayFX (world's largest pinball tournament with 1,000+ players) formally canceled; successfully negotiated contract exit using pandemic emergency provisions

    high · Dennis: 'Pinberg ReplayFX has been formally canceled...It was slated to have over 1,000 players in early July, and that has been canceled. They were successfully able to get out from their contract based under the provisions of the emergency.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball actively loaning machines to media for CNET feature work, indicating active PR/content partnership strategy with mainstream tech media outlets

    high · Jeff Bacalar: 'Willy Wonka was loaned to me by Jersey Jack because we were working on a feature for CNET'

  • ?

    community_signal: Jack Danger (Stern Pinball) actively recruiting players into competitive pinball scene at CES, indicating Stern's talent development/community-building strategy

    medium · Jeff: 'when i was at CES and i was hanging out with some of the Stern guys and they were saying, oh, man, you should totally play competitively...and Jack Danger was like, yeah, man, you should totally do it'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Jeff's re-evaluation of Theater of Magic and Attack from Mars—initially dismissed childhood biases now reversed through adult play; indicates vintage game reassessment trend

    medium · Jeff: 'Theater of Magic for whatever reason didn't attract me in the way that it does now...you don't realize it, but you have these biases as a child...but now that I play it in these retro arcades, I feel like such an idiot because of how much fun I'm having with it now'

    • 3:40
    Every December. He had me watch one and I was like, whoa, this is long. It's like a prison sentence. I don't even understand how they do it. When they come back from San Francisco, these guys are like the walking dead. It is unbelievable. I can't imagine because I watch it at like two times speed to watch them And even then, it takes me longer to watch them than how rapidly they put them out for how long it takes with every day. It's just – but it is definitely the best roundup of the year. For sure. And like as much as they lament it, they do love it. It's just like they know what they're getting themselves into. It's just like this necessary evil. It is such a pillar of that business, of that franchise. but they look like they're going into war the week before. They have to fly out to San Francisco to record that whole thing. But it's awesome. And the amount of feedback and how many people just hang their hats on that staple of a thing, it's kind of amazing. So here in the intro, normally Tony and I go over what we did the last couple of weeks because that's how often we record the podcast. But as a guest host, the floor is yours if you want to maybe talk about just sort of your general interest in pinball or maybe how that started you take it wherever you want to go uh yeah i mean you know for as long as i can remember i've always been fascinated with pinball uh growing up i was a huge uh video game player which is probably very obvious but i had always loved um the sort of like physicality and i was fascinated with like rube goldberg stuff and i think that i was introduced to that at a very young age my um my grandfather had worked for the ideal toy company and whenever i would go to their house or apartment in queens he would have all these like gadgets that he put together and he would have all these like you know strange prototypes from the toy factory and I would just like you know immerse myself in all the kind of junk that he had laying around and it led to me being introduced to pinball at a pretty young age and I just never really shook it it was always a thing that I was super into but I think as I grew up it was sort of just in the back of my head that like this is only a thing I can do when I go to an arcade. This is a novelty that is left for, you know, being, you know, growing up it was like the bowling alleys had them and, you know, all these sort of like specialty places. And when arcades used to be a much bigger thing than sort of like what they are now, I mean, I guess you could argue that the retro revolution has sort of brought that back into the limelight a little bit. But it was always a thing that was like, oh, I'll, you know, I'll get around to playing a machine, you know, when I run into one.
    6:48
    And as I grew up, you know, and got into my 30s, I realized like, oh, this, you know, there's a specialty here. And there's a sort of curation that's starting to happen with pinball museums. You know, we have the one here in Asbury Park, the Silver Ball Museum. and I kind of had never left the interest of pinball, but it came back to me in a way that in the last five, ten years that I really can't describe. Not to mention all the time I spend on the Jersey Shore with the amount of pinball that's there for consumption is definitely on the higher end compared to probably anywhere else in the country.
    7:30
    Yeah, it's always been a thing for me. And now that I'm a grown ass man and can do what the hell I want with my time and money, you know, it's definitely been a way for me to kind of explore it. And now, you know, streaming it and getting online and really falling in with the community. It's it's it's been a really awesome experience. So do you stream on Twitch? So I just started doing that since the lockdown started. Yeah, I started streaming Willy Wonka, and I was doing – I think we did six streams of that, and I think this weekend I'm going to start streaming Funhaus. So we'll see how that goes. So you own games. How many? I do. Right now I have four.
    8:16
    I have – so Willy Wonka was loaned to me by Jersey Jack because we were working on a feature for CNET. and let me tell you it's a good time to get quarantined with a pinball machine loaner this is we couldn't have asked for a better timing in that regard um so i do have that right now um i have a funhouse machine that through uh an amazingly generous beast cast uh listener was able to sort of uh you know put me into uh ownership of that and i also have a stern deadpool and a stern jurassic park pro models uh deadpool's a pro and and jp's premium okay nice jersey jack's never loaned us games tony i know what you think so i could put in a call well you think at this point i mean all right now you may know some people but i i used to co-host over with ken cromwell who's now their communication specialist so okay ken i know you're listening and i know you skipped the video game segment but come on man you got don't make me go through flipping out pinball and be one of their one of those distributing shills i can't i can't say to that my reputation is on the line here i can reach out to me too i think i think we're going to try and work together in the future too but yeah they're good people over there at jersey jack for sure ken and ken's great he was a it's really unfortunate because of course he had to he had to hang up the microphone when he went to join with a with a manufacturer but he was a pillar for pinball hobbyists as podcaster he raised over fifty thousand dollars with a charity campaign for project pinball to place pinball machines in children's hospitals so that's awesome yeah It's the most successful charitable event I know of that's happened in pinball. So, yeah, if Ken wants it, his will becomes reality.
    10:14
    It's scary. So, Tony, now, to be fair, Tony, you did end up with a pinball machine thanks to your podcasting. So it's kind of like the Funhouse thing. It is. Thanks to Nick and the Roanoke Pinball Museum, I got my grail pin, Campus Queen. and it has been getting some decent play in this year, lockdown time, except for it keeps freaking the dogs out. Yeah, back when I had my dog, he couldn't stand EM games too loud. Yep, we have to balance. It's like we can play for a certain amount of time and then we have to let the dogs calm down before their hearts explode. Yes, yes.
    10:55
    And I have eight games currently. I have room for seven, but you know how it is. Mistakes are made because I like to do projects. But I normally do those with my dad. And with the quarantine and isolation happening right now, we do not get together and work on games. My mom's immunocompromised, so we stay away from each other. But I don't have any project right now, so it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, you just got to make do. And speaking of making do, we're going to make our way right on into that pinball segment. Now, there will be no video game segment this time. I figured Jeff talks about video games enough. There is no reason to subject him to it here on some low-rent, like, D-list podcast. But in the world of pinball, we're a B-list podcast, so we're much higher. So I think before going into some, we do have a couple of news items. But before going into that, I just want to quickly announce that back on the last episode, 114, we did play a new game, Tony and I, called Build a Bank, where we used a combination of Pinside top one, well, top everything list, and then randomly had a pool of games we each got to pick from, and we alternated who got to pick what. We built banks of six games, and then we let the audience vote on Facebook in terms of whose bank did they like more. I did win with 80% of the vote. Really? No kidding. But had Tony taken Jersey Jacks, Pirates of the Caribbean, he may have won it all. That's what I was told. I keep being told that if I'd taken that or Stars, I would have won it all. Stars. But what can you do? You'll always have Daddy's Star Trek. I chose games that I have experience with and that I enjoy. I didn't just go with what I know is the meta of games. I made my list very personal. Now, to be fair, you know I have wanted a Lord of the Rings for years. So that one. Oh, yeah, that's true. Okay. That one. Personally, I think Lord of the Rings won it for me, but what do I know? So anyways, we're not going to play that today because the way the Facebook polling works. We're going to play a different game at the end of the show. But we will bring Bill the Bank back, though, Tony, because the feedback, as you probably saw, was immensely positive. Yeah, I enjoyed it. That was way better than our normal game. Yeah, you like it, but normally we play 20 questions, which Tony gets mad about.
    13:17
    So only a couple news items. First thing, This Week in Pinball Commonly known as TWIP They have released a new promoter database So if you go over to This Week in Pinball You may now go It's kind of like iTunes reviews Except it's for all sorts of creative media content So podcasts are in there obviously But so are streamers So are YouTube channels And so you can go You can rate out of five stars And you can leave reviews And a lot of people have been plugging reviews in So I know a lot of people turned to TWIP to catch up on weekly updates about what's going on in the hobby. So it makes sense for them to host the database. And so far, it hasn't turned into a toxic wasteland. It looks pretty positive to me. I say it a little bit. So far. So yeah, I've liked it. I've tried to give some decent reviews so far when I've had time. And then the other big news, and this is big news, and we're not, I don't think, surprised, Tony, but Pinberg ReplayFX has been formally canceled. For those that don't know, Pinberg is the world's largest pinball tournament. It was slated to have over 1,000 players in early July, and that has been canceled. They were successfully able to get out from their contract based under the provisions of the emergency. But obviously that has disappointed a lot of people. Jeff, do you play competitively?
    14:35
    So this has been something that has begun to sort of come into my headspace in a way that I kind of had not considered it seriously until I was at CES and I was hanging out with some of the Stern guys and they were saying, oh, man, you should totally play competitively. And I'm just like, but you don't know if I'm good or not. Like, what are you trying to get me into here? Is this like, am I being hustled right now? Like, is this, you know, and Jack Danger was like, yeah, man, you should totally do it. And I'm like, dude, are you trying to take my money somehow? Like, what's going on? um i have never done it um i you know i've i've started to think about it after i was you know asked about it um where i live i live pretty close to uh morristown new jersey and there's a place called game vault that i know does um some events and i was actually so it's funny because like my head doesn't always you know the first thing i think is i don't go oh i should do this tournament My first thought is I should cover this or I should make a video about this. So that's kind of where my head went, where I had been in touch with the Game Ball people and I was saying, hey, the next event I would love to maybe do a short little documentary about it.
    15:58
    I mean maybe playing in that event too would sort of add a special angle to that kind of project. But I'm open to it. I have no expectations. just I know I would need to set the bar very, very low. I feel like my five-year-old would maybe have a better chance of doing some damage at one of these. But yeah, long story short, I've never been in a tournament, but I feel like maybe once things cool down a little bit, it's something that I would definitely consider for sure. As somebody who has been beaten by a very young child, there's still a lot of fun i bet yeah and i yeah i've been i've been thoroughly trance trounced by young people and it's still fun they're great uh socially uh is where i enjoy most of it because i'm not that great of a player but it's still a good time i um yeah you could have just said no and saved us like four minutes there but but you didn't which is probably good because it gives us something to discuss uh i've never played in pinberg i do play competitively locally and yes they were probably hustling you jack danger is a machine he is a yeah no that and the thing is a number of stern employees rank higher than he does it's like it's like crazy yeah so now jack loves to get people into pinball they that's his whole thing you know that's what his whole channel's arranged about. So, yeah, he is an incredible player. Anyone who watches the stream can see that. You know, their media guy, Zach Sharp, guy has won Pinnberg, won it. I mean, Keith Elwin, I think, generally agreed upon as being the greatest player in the history of the entire game ever, works there for Stern now. Tim Sexton, the programmer behind Black Knight Sword of Rage, he is a top-level player. That's what he was known for back before Stern scooped him up as a programmer. So, yeah, they have got a lot of talent. I got destroyed repeatedly at local tournaments for, I don't even remember when I won my first round. I think I had played almost half a year. Yeah, it's been fun. And, you know, as you work at it, you get better at it. And what I like about local tournaments is most of the time it's not too competitive. Like, oh, everyone wants to win. They want that money and they want that trophy. Mostly they want the money. But they're cool about it. It's really social. people and even at the more competitive things a lot of people are great with if you just go up to someone say i don't know how to play this game they'll tell you like this and this and this i've had people ask me how like it's a game i own and they'll be how do i play that east jurassic park and i'll be like i'll tell you everything here's the entire strategy i'm going to use to try and destroy you and you can try and do it or maybe not and let me win up to you let's go ahead and transition now to the top 10 pinball machines that you discussed in your article and i have a link I have a link to BeastCast, I have a link to CNET And I also have a link to the article itself In the show notes for people So they can follow up with you On the things that you've covered in the hobby And yell at me, right? Yeah And so I'm just going to run through What you listed real quick And then we can talk about any of these games So your picks And granted these were as of 2019 As you noted in the headline of your article Your number 10 was Batman the Daddy East version from 91 which incidentally I believe is the only game on your list I have not played okay Tony have you played Batman DE Batman the one with based off of Keaton I don't think I've ever seen it I haven't okay well it's not it's number 10 in Jeff's world so that's the thing right like that's what I love about I think that's I think the thing about pinball for me is like you know obviously I'm very much affluent you know video game person and you know opinions definitely seem to kind of flow with momentum in similar sort of path right where like people agree like yes the last of us is a fantastic game and and you will find very few people who sort of maybe veer off of that opinion which is and again you know everyone's opinion is great and everyone should be heard i think with pinball it's such a different kind of medium because you're just not you just can't rent the game that everyone's talking about you just can't go and buy the game everyone's talking about so for me batman's here because i i grew up playing this game year after year in in ocean city new jersey and playing it once or twice a year you know over the course of 20 years you know and and the the amazing like a shape that this owner kept it in all these years i could see like how much better i was doing over time and and that's you know you can't like detach that nostalgia of this game for me so yeah i mean i think that's what i kind of love the most about pinball okay so you'd say batman is your sort of your touchstone game then more than perhaps any other game i think so i think that and And a couple other games that aren't on this list that I just have these nostalgic childhood attachments to. But yeah, this one for sure, especially on a personal level. Well, I can't evaluate your pick because I've never played the game, so I haven't. It may very well be the 10th best game of all time. I don't know. It's funny because I have not met a lot of people who have played this game either. It is a kind of overly simplified, objective kind of base game. It there not a lot going on there but I think it does It hits all the right notes for me with the theme and the call There something about it that just gets me going I don't know. If you got Jack Nicholson's Joker in a game, odds are I'm going to pay attention. So number nine on your list. Now, this is a game Tony and I are familiar with. That would be Williams' 1993 hit classic Whitewater. Dennis Nordman design. I take some flack on Whitewater because I actually don't love it to the degree that a lot of people think it's Nordman's best game and I would say it's one of his better games but I've never been particularly drawn to his design style so what is it about Whitewater that you like? because I know a lot of people do love it it's considered an A-list title from that era yeah I think for me there's a bit of nostalgia here too because I remember at a young age being super attracted to this game just because of the amount of ramps and just the amount of traffic and sort of stuff that's going on in the play field here. For me, that was always the big draw because when you play pinball when you're super young, you don't really know a lot. For me at least, my kid now knows how to combo every dead pool and how to collect all the kids in Willy Wonka and all that. But when I was growing up, it was just like, don't let the ball go down the drain, right? Like that's all you got to do. So for me, all of the stuff, all of the toys that are going on in this game is something that I always found super attractive. And now that I can play this kind of regularly around the corner from my office, there's a vendor that has this and I'm in there a bunch playing it. To understand just how cleverly designed everything is and the multiple levels going on, I just always find myself coming back to it. Awesome. Tony, what are your thoughts on Whitewater? I like Whitewater.
    23:47
    It's definitely – I'm one of those people who considers it one of the A-list games from that time period. It's one of my favorites. Well, I'll just sit outside looking in from the rain peering through the window glass there. Now here's one I think we're all three probably going to agree on. Number seven, Dialed In, Jersey Jack Pinball 2017.
    24:07
    Personally, I know we're – now, spoilers. There will be a touch on this later. This, in my view, is Jersey Jack's best game. I also think it's Pat Lawler's best game that he ever did. So I really like Dialed In. I really do.
    24:22
    And I guess, Tony, what are your thoughts on Dialed In? Because I know we've talked about it off and on before. Oh, yeah. No, Dialed In is definitely a great game, and I'm with you. It's my favorite Jersey Jack game. Is it your favorite Pat Lawler game? Probably. Hmm. Okay. I thought it'd be Roadshow.
    24:39
    No. Roadshow's up there, but I think it's probably going to be Dialed In on top. All right. Jeff, why is it number seven on your list whilst you have other JJP games and other Lawler games higher up?
    24:57
    in fact i'm going to spoil a little bit and say looking at your list you look like a bit of a fan boy yeah it's funny because i did not know about a lot of designers and stuff until i got much more into the hobby so you know kind of realizing that maybe i was sort of you know drawn to a certain designer has been a sort of eye-opening thing of like oh maybe i really like how this pat lawler dude like designs pinball machines yeah nevertheless like uh i think with dialed in you know there's something about uh i think this is a game and the way i look at a lot of jersey jack stuff is that there's a certain level of like you know modern technology that I think pinball machines kind of broke through in the last decade or so that I'm sort of drawn to, especially with Dialed In as being maybe the first. I guess you could include Wizard of Oz because that was their first sort of entry. But there's something about Dialed In that I remember playing for the first time being like, I've never seen something like this in a pinball machine before. and for me that made a lasting effect that kind of I was never really able to shake and going down to Silver Ball Museum and really spending a lot of time with this game and understanding just how smart it is really just you know and not to mention just how difficult I think it is too you know that's kind of why I love Faunhaus so much is like for me personally I just find that game to just be hard and um the challenge here is something that i really really dig in the way that like a game like bloodborne you know would just have you relentlessly kind of coming back to um and you know there's something weird about this theme i mean i i know a lot of like hardcore pinball players don't care about themes but there's something about this wacky like dystopian technology theme that I really kind of dig and yeah I'm I'm all about it yeah it does have a very uh I mean when I first played through it I thought this feels like it wanted to be SimCity with all disasters turned on and I'm just dropping in I'm just dropping in tornadoes and earthquakes and uh memories okay so uh next up number six on your list uh we did skip eight did Did we skip eight on purpose? Oh, my gosh. No.
    27:34
    Good thing you caught it because it's the W's. The W's in my one note are blending together. So number eight on the list, which I did skip, and we are not going to cut and edit it back into place. So we just have to have it out of order, would be Bally or WMS 94 game World Cup Soccer. That's a John Papaduke design.
    27:52
    Personally, World Cup Soccer is, I think, his best game. So I, while it wouldn't be in my overall top 10, it would be my number one from J-pop in terms of what I think on that. And that's not always been the case. I've kind of fluctuated on which J-pop game I think is the best.
    28:09
    Tony, what are your thoughts? I mean, we've played World Cup a lot. Oh, yeah. We've played it. It's always on location. Yeah. And so we've seen it in a lot of tournaments. Much like you, I do think it is J-pop's funnest game. I don't think it's his prettiest game, but I think it's the one that I have the most fun playing.
    28:28
    Okay, so Jeff, do you think it's his prettiest game? Well, I mean, again, and I feel like what's happening with this podcast is you guys just being like, oh, man, we are schooling this dude because he's just not. Oh, no, not at all. Oh, my taste is so terrible. I think it's more of just like my – the fluency of like what I know about designers and whatnot. I'm always trying to learn more, so this is definitely a more educational experience than anything else.
    29:01
    But yeah, what else has this guy done that I would – Our sense of humor can be a little odd, so don't be too shocked. Nothing is meant to be malicious or anything. We're not trying to be like, hey, look, make it look like an idiot. That's never the goal. So glad you pointed it out because we're not trying to do that. So John Papaduke is a designer who's now over with a startup company called Deep Root. He only had a few games, Tales of the Arabian Nights, Circus Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, Star Wars Episode I, the Pinball 2000 game, and Theater of Magic. So he didn't have very many games, and most of those are known for their art. So I was being cheeky with the thing about Prettiest on World Cup Soccer because generally everyone agrees that aside from Star Wars Episode I, World Cup Soccer's art is not very interesting, whereas Theater of Magic, Tales of the Arabian Nights, and Circus Voltaire are beautiful games. Yeah, it's weird. Growing up, I didn't play – Theater of Magic for whatever reason didn't attract me in the way that it does now. And that's like a whole other conversation we could have about like games that I remember from my childhood that I just for whatever reason was like, I'm not going to play this one because it's about a thing I don't like or whatever it is. And you don't realize it, but you have these biases as a child where you're just like, I'm not playing the gun game or I'm not going to play the X or Y game. But for whatever reason, theater magic never appealed to me. And now that I play it in these retro arcades, I feel like such an idiot because of how much fun I'm having with it now. Same with like, you know, something like Attack from Mars. But yes, without a doubt, I would – I mean I don't agree about it being pretty. I think Theater Magic has a much more going for it. But – oh, and you brought up Circus Voltaire, right? Yeah, yeah. That's one of his. What – so I have a friend who's obsessed with this game. I've never played it. I know it only ran in a very limited kind of run. there is something like that game is somehow like a unicorn game what is it can you explain it to me like what is it about that game that seems to be like so many people's you know grail or or or you know this sort of like you know lost treasure can you explain that to me probably not i i just don't have the same fondness for it that so many people see it seem to i i can't what i can tell you is that like and a lot of times when it comes to rule evaluation i look to the competitive scene because they're so particular about wanting really balanced rules and and i like really balanced rules as well for from a scoring perspective so what i can say is there pretty much are two schools of thought amongst competitive players there are those that think world cup soccer was the best game from john papaduke because of the rule set it got and then there are those that think circus voltaire is because of the rule set it got and then everything else has a bad rule set that he worked on he wasn't the programmer it's just that's how it was so like i can't competitively i'll play i mean i don't mind playing it but i don't like theater of magic because the rule it's too easy of a game to break and tales of the arabian knights used to be my favorite game of his because i really like the layout but then when you find out that the rule is lamp all day it becomes boring from a competitive standpoint and then and no one likes star wars so you just throw that one out so so i think it's a combination of the art's really cool on it uh it's it's a fun thing to try and go for the ringmaster which is kind of the uh bash toy but you have to get him to raise up from the bottom of the playfield before you can bash him and then the ball will balance on the top of the the hat for a multi-ball and then it's got all these magnets on the diverters and the ramps which world cup does as well for like the ball lock so it's just got a lot of cool toys and a lot of diversion to it and it is a very weird layout and so yes whereas theater of magic is a traditional fan layout uh and world cup's unique but holy crap circus voltaire just feels weird i think it feels really weird and some people like that because it's different yeah with world cup for me the attraction is definitely the idea of the toys. And for me, again, the theme is definitely implemented in a way that just feels real good. It has a rule set that I dig, that I can wrap my head around quick enough to not kind of feel lost. I think it's one of the more accessible games when it comes to rule set for a lot of people. And that definitely scores points with me. Yeah, makes sense. Well, we did number seven, so we'll move to number six. Another one that I think a lot of people out there are going to agree with you completely on. That would be Stern's 2018 hit and Twippy Game of the Year winner, Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast, which is the first design, a published design, produced design by Keith Elwin. And Keith does his own rules too. So he also handled the rule set for Iron Maiden. We played that quite a bit on location, Tony and I did. It was at one of our major tournament locations for quite a while. I liked the game. I didn't love it to the degree, I really respect the rules, and the layout's fun. So I don't know. It never clicked with me in the same way it has with a lot of people, but I really appreciate how well-balanced that game is and how it feels like any shot will make you progress towards something.
    34:34
    And that's really appealing because you may struggle with some of the geometry otherwise. So I guess that's kind of like the high points I would say about Iron Maiden. It's not a theme I'm familiar with. I never was into Iron Maiden, so I don't really know the theme. So why is it kind of in the middle of your list though, Jeff? Yeah, I mean I definitely agree. There's a certain level of satisfaction with the kind of juggling that goes on there. I kind of relate it to like plate spinning where you're just constantly almost like an RPG where you're kind of like managing a lot of progression systems in the background. I feel like Maiden is able to give you that sense of accomplishment like you talked about. in a way that feels productive. So personally, I'm not the biggest Maiden fan, but I'm very familiar with the theme and obviously the music and dig how that's been implemented. I also love the – that was the first game I saw that did a really interesting – that plunger shot where it sort of crosses the play field and enters that second ramp. to me that was the first time I'd really seen something like that you know for me it's like oh how is this innovating how is this different how is this moving the needle and pushing it forward and for me all those sort of things come together in a way that had me hooked kind of from the first time I ever played it this game is like I said with a lot of other these games on the list super readily available to me fortunately enough where I'm at in the city back when we used to go into offices but having this around the corner does not hurt a game's chances of me playing it probably more than I should be. Tony, what are your thoughts on Iron Man? I don't know if we've ever really talked a whole lot about it. I'm sure maybe back when it came out. Yeah, I can't really add anything because I agree with both of you completely. It's a game that is fun, and the theme's not necessarily a huge thing to me, but it's still kind of in my wheelhouse. It's just fun to play. I think I voted for it for that Game of the Year award, the Twippies, which is a People's Choice style award. So I think I did. Yeah, I did as well. It was a good game for that year. It's a good game for any year, really. Now, this one's going to be more controversial, Jeff, though I got your back on it. And that's Funhouse, a Williams 1990 game. That is a Pat Lawler design. It's also one of the Pat Lawler games that's high on my list. I'd never own it because the face is too creepy for me, but I do like to play it on location. Tony, what do you think about Funhaus? I know you've played it a lot. I've played it a fairly large amount. It's a fun game. It's definitely not a game that I'm going to walk away from if it's there to play. It's not like one of those games where it's like, there's another game I'd rather go play. I'll play it. I enjoy it quite a lot. So it's definitely on my list of games.
    37:39
    Now, Jeff, I'd like to know what your thoughts are about why it's here right in the middle of the pack for you. And also, I know that you have been doing a lot of work on one, so I'd like to hear a little bit about that as well. Yeah, so I have a complicated relationship with Funhaus. You know, when I first saw this one that's in my house, it was in rough, rough shape. It had spent, I think, three years in a garage in rural Connecticut with no, you know, conditioned air and humidity. And I came to find out that this is one of those diamond plate play fields as well. So it's it just didn't have any love. And when I cracked this, you know, I finally got it in the house and we turned it on. It was like that cartoon, like real near. It was just – I had – and keep in mind like the – I had been a pinball fan for decades. I had not been familiar in any way, shape or form with how one of these things works and functions. and the crash course that I embarked on from October of last year until present day has just been a whirlwind of soldering and wiring and understanding electricity in a way that I never thought I would. And it really is all thanks to this game and a lot of help from the Giant Bomb community. Um, so there is a very special place that this game has just because it was the game that got me a into pinball ownership and be into the maintenance and upkeep and repairing of pinball.
    39:33
    So obviously that's a bond that is tough to break. um now that aside you know the game itself um i like i said before i find it infuriatingly difficult um maybe that's because i replaced all the rubbers inside and it's like rocket powered now and maybe i i you know maybe i just cranked it up to 11 and i and i just can't get a hold of the thing but um i find it super difficult um and and just has these evil angles to it that for whatever reason just don't want to play well with me maybe i waxed it too much i don't know this game hates me it's it's a it's a hard game most of lawler's stuff especially his early stuff i think is just really hard really hard and it's like he favored shots in different spots on a flipper than any other designer i can think of so i always have trouble like finding the ball lock shot up there to the left of the head and stuff like i'm always like all i keep getting is get yourself a hot dog i'm like i don't want any more hot dogs i want i want to be able to do multi-ball i want to be able to feed him i want to be able to hit the trap door and i and on no matter what copy i play they all are cruel they're all so cruel it's cool you know that that loop shot you know with the trap door i mean finding that groove is so hard uh you know finding that back and forth of that game is so difficult to really lock it in and you know where that game spits balls out where it where that scoop pops out it's just wrong like it's just not nice uh I never can catch it reliably the same way the same time.
    41:24
    My son goes back and forth with this. He'll go a month and not play this game and then play it nonstop for an entire weekend and just be like, I'm going to figure out a way to turn off the clock. It's tough. It's a love-hate relationship for sure. but at the end of the day it's always a game that I never get sick of and I think a lot of that is thanks to that challenge and just how much this game puts you through punishment it makes a lot of sense to me and you followed it up with another I think incredibly brutal game which is the Addams Family from 92 so why do you rank the Addams Family above Funhaus I guess would be how I'd phrase it So for me, it's all about – it's my childhood just coming roaring back to me. I own four pinball machines currently and I still have more playtime on Adam's Family if you were to count it all just because of how much I played this game in arcades growing up.
    42:33
    And there's something about this game too that – and I wrote about it in the list. like this is a game that i've found in the weirdest of places through my travels on this planet like like i found this in weird like lobbies basements uh you know i i found one like at a strange ski lodge that was like literally surrounded by nothing but lockers like these they pop up i know it's like the most produced game of all time but they pop up in the strangest of places uh i am a die-hard you know fan of this movie franchise as well uh that's a big part of my childhood so i think you know and not to mention i just i i love the game i love everything about it uh the call outs the theme is is is as close to perfect i think as you can get um and i'm really good at this game this is a game that i am i i am straight up going to say I good at this one And I think that really what it comes down to I think it is the most identifiable pinball machine out there I think and this is like this is the one I have to own one day This is the one that I will figure out a way to own. There's no doubt in my mind. I've heard a lot of rumors that this is going to be the next game from the Chicago company. I don't know. But however it gets to me, I'm going to have this game at some point. I don't want to spend $10,000 on it, but we'll figure it out. It'll happen. But I mean I'm helpless. If this game shows up, if I go somewhere and this game just happens to be in the lobby of a hotel or happens to be – I'm gone for 90 minutes. You're just not going to see me. I'm going to play this game. I just can't help myself. I am inexplicably drawn to it. Tony, are you great at Adam's Family? No. I'm okay at Adam's Family.
    44:39
    No. No, you've won some tournaments, or you've won some rounds on some tournaments. I've won some rounds on it. It's one of those games where I have kind of hot and cold streaks, where I might have a game or two where I'm just blowing it up, and then for the next, like, 37 times I play that game, it looks like I've never touched it before. so but no it's an enjoyable game that's a I think Adam's Family is a great pick to be on anybody's list that's just a fun game period it is well loved when I first started playing competitively and I didn't actually have a history with Adam's Family I hated this game hated it it was too hard I didn't like the geometry why is the power coming on why is the magnet screwing with me why is there no ball save I hated everything about this game other than the theme, which I thought was excellent in terms of integration. Over time, I'll never love it. I don't think I'm capable of love.
    45:43
    But I respect it. I respect how well integrated it is. I respect what innovations it brought to the table at the time. I respect its brutality. And I respect when it ends up in tournaments. And I also get that operators love this game because it makes bank to this day. It is so popular. And that is those quarters are coming in on nostalgia, and it all makes sense. It was – there's a reason why they sold over 20,000 of those things.
    46:10
    And so while it is not and never will be a top game for me, I have to respect everything that it's done because it's just that iconic of a title.
    46:20
    A couple of summers ago, I was up in Lake George in New York for a wedding, and I was in the wedding party. and lo and behold this thing shows up guys this machine was in it was underground so they had stairs that led down to like an underground pool on like the basement floor and for whatever reason this was in the corridor between the pool the the the route the the huge indoor pool they had and the parking garage okay picture that in your mind like this is where this machine was so there i am in a tuxedo okay i had to be there at 6 p.m it's like 6 25 and my friend and i are in our tuxedos still playing this game ignoring texts from the groom saying we'll be there we'll be there don't worry don't worry so that perfectly uh yeah it made no sense but for a brief for a brief moment i just knew you were going to say and i was at this wedding and the It was in the cake. We cut open this cake. There's a pinball machine. Of course, it's an Addams Family, but there's a pinball machine in the cake. And I'm like, yeah, Addams Family would find a way because it's everywhere. So now your last three games are all very, very modern. So number three, a game you noted at the start that you own and a game that I really enjoy quite a bit, Deadpool from Stern 2018 title. I love how I mean I guess I'll go ahead and just start really quick and say that I just I really love how you Look at it and you think you're going to have like a traditional Fan layout with just the two flippers down Down at the bottom but the Design's so weird the sword Ramp is so satisfying to hit and so difficult To get it the snick shot is awesome I love the modes I love the 16-bit fighting you know it brings me back To my days When Tony and I had an apartment when we first Went to college and we didn't have cable We didn't have any package of anything We just played Street Fighter 2, that's all we could do So it just brings it all back For me with that, and I really think George Gomez, the designer on it Did a really good job, and Tanyo Kleiss Has really made the rules something Something special, I think it's an Excellent location pin in particular Because I think it's pretty approachable And not too confusing So I really, I mean, Deadpool Might very well be on my top ten list as well As I think about it, but I love Deadpool Jeff, why is it here? Because I'm right and you agree with me? Yeah, 100 percent, because you are right. I mean, Dennis, you put it perfectly. When you first approached this game, when I first saw this game, I won't lie. I saw it and I was like, oh, that's cute. They have a little Deadpool machine. That's cute. This looks like this is fine with its two flippers. For me, I am drawn to the tech of a game. where I want to see something I've never seen before. But I don't think there is a more satisfying game loop in a pinball machine that I've experienced in a while. This just does it.
    49:26
    It is so well balanced and such a really satisfying rule set. And the fact that it does so much with, I want to say seemingly, kind of so little because it isn't necessarily the game with the biggest toys and the biggest sort of over-the-top presentation,
    49:45
    it is so much fun. And that's it. And yeah, I like the theme Deadpool, sure. I feel like you're not really going to find too many people who are just like, all right, but that's done really well.
    50:03
    And you know what? I think the cool thing with the battling, there is a video game-ish kind of feel here obviously you know you can look beyond the the you know the the pixel graphics and whatnot but it there is something super satisfying that you know that sense of progress and that sense of like oh uh you know i i got juggernaut mystique and and all you know i want to get that sarong multi-ball and you know it's it's there that progression and the ultra satisfying shots in this game i mean that katana blade i mean come on like you're just not hitting that hitting three of those in a row that that ninja apocalypse shot where you hit the orbit and then the i mean come on like this is where it's at and i actually just had to do a couple repairs online and i missed it it was out of commission for a week and a half and I missed it.
    51:02
    That's when I knew hey, this one isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I love it and my kid loves it too. Cool. Tony, what are your thoughts? I have nothing to add about talking about the game because you guys are once again completely right on it. I will say I remember when this game first came out and we originally talked about it. There was a lot of people who were upset because it wasn't based off the movie and after having played it and seen it on location and everything, I'm fully convinced that this game would not have done as well based off the movie as it is now. It wouldn't have the same amount of draw, I don't think. That's a really good point. I mean, yeah, there's something really special about it honoring the more comic book-y version of Deadpool, for sure. And it really nails it. And video game fans recognize the voice work in that pinball machine. A lot of pinheads are like, well, I only know Ryan Reynolds. I'm like, yeah, well, you old. You old. I'm old, too, but at least I fake it.
    52:05
    Tony, I'll let you, actually, I want your thoughts first on his number two game, because Jeff mentioned here on Deadpool how normally he goes for the games with more kind of, well, I will use the word bling, more stuff in them, you know, more features. And this one's got it in spades, and that's Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, which was the release from JJP last year. yeah Willy Wonka is a very good game with fun shots it is my number two JJP game with only dialed in being the only game that I like better and they're close there is nothing wrong with Willy Wonka other than the art I'm not a fan of the art cut and paste Mr. Wonka really? I'm not a huge fan of the art but I actually really enjoy playing the game so yeah And I agree broadly with Tony. It is also my number two game next to Dialed In. And for those that don't know, Willy Wonka is also a Pat Lawler design, as was Dialed In. I like Dialed In's shots a little bit more. I understand the rules going on in Dialed In moderately more than I've ever been able to really understand on Wonka. And the art doesn't bug me too much on Willy Wonka, but the sound package does. I don't like the sound effects in it. And so it always drags it down. Like, I want it turned down. I don't like how it sounds like a slot machine. So that always kind of irks me. I usually play it in a bar where I can't hear it. So that's not so it's not a big deal. But so but Jeff, you've put it quite a bit higher than dialed in. So you must love it a great deal more. Yeah. I mean, it definitely doesn't hurt that I wake up most days and play it. You know, I think, you know, this this game I when I first played and the first time I did play, it was at Silver Ball Museum. And my first takeaway was, I don't think I like this.
    53:58
    But the more I came to understand the rule set and really began to appreciate the layering and the stacking that's going on in this game,
    54:10
    you know, there really, for me, isn't anything going on in a game or at least is not presented this way for me. And I think that ties in with not just the rule set, but also how the visual representation of everything you're doing kind of comes together. And when you talk about the LCD in the backless, it is just like this wild sort of like choreographed relationship between what you're doing and what's on screen. and I know that's a very kind of like geeky kind of like tech angle to look at at this machine through but there's something about it that I just find so ultra satisfying now that kind of get comes you know you can talk about that as a fault as well because I think for a lot of people this game is too complicated and I think a lot of these rules for a lot of people especially when you get into the multi-ball modes like the kid multi-ball the slug worth what like Those intersect and those midair collisions can be super confusing and ultimately not very satisfying because you're really trying to juggle everything. With a lot of games where you're just sort of spinning all these plates together, you kind of lose track of what you're really going for. I think I, even to this day, have that problem with this game.
    55:33
    I think it's a gorgeous game. I think the RGB LEDs kind of dance together in a way that I don't think any game has really pulled off to kind of look as well as it does in this version of it. I agree in every sense of the word with some of the sound in this game. I think the kind of narrator voice is just straight up bad. Oh, yeah. Want to be grandpa. Yeah, that's true. Not to mention everybody hates Grandpa Joe as it is. Because he stayed in bed his whole life. Because he's such a garbage human. So, you know, kind of like celebrating him and romanticizing this awful person is just a bad look for this game. What tier are you, Gramps? I'm garbage tier. Now let me go back to bed. He is so garbage.
    56:24
    Dude, there's a point in that movie where he's like, Charlie, you're going to get all five tickets. It's not only the first – oh, my God. Grandpa Joe, what are you telling this poor kid?
    56:37
    There's an amazing subreddit that just dunks on Grandpa Joe. I forgot so much about this movie. Oh, my. And the beauty of it is my kid – so imagine being five years old and your first understanding of what Willy Wonka is is through this pinball machine, okay? You see the Gene Wilder thing. you see all this like kind of old school you know art you're like what is this he then watched the movie after the fact and just sort of like knew everything in the movie from the game i'm not sure anyone else on earth has had that sort of like work weird what we've done to our child but nevertheless uh it's really the only movie he'll watch through and through over and over again uh That aside, the theme for me, they really do do a good job in kind of nailing it.
    57:33
    It's just a smart adaptation. The shots are really good. There's so much going on. I love the implementation of the screen. I do kind of wish sometimes that the game didn't rely so much on that one WonkaVision shot. The game does kind of really revolve around that computer award, which is that right lane in the TV shot. Other than that, though, I mean, this is a game that you will just go down a different path each time you play it. And I just, you know, there's nothing better than just stacking those modes and really the chaos that ensues here. You know, if there's if there's another thing I can knock on it, whether it's the awful Grandpa Joe and maybe sometimes the overly complicated situations you find yourself in, you know, they they just maybe don't do the best job of kind of giving you a chance to just take a step back and say, OK, what what's next? right like you're kind of always presented with you know things that unlock in in this sort of like order that you're just like i'm not sure i've discovered this on purpose or by accident and and i realize you know the complexity of this game kind of lends itself to having that difficulty but overall uh i i really just have so much fun with this game and uh yeah uh it's it really you know stands by itself i i don't know if you guys have played this enough to under to like really appreciate like how those slingshots uh behave have you noticed that like jersey jacks i don't know if it's maybe just exclusive to this one i can't obviously draw the other ones maybe from memory as specifically but there is some sort of like maybe lightness to the to the slingshot kind of behavior in this game that is just so much different from playing a stern game or at least a modern stern game i don't know is that something you guys like kind of take away from it i it doesn't click with me i know it's been it's been commonly pointed out especially in high power draw situations so a lot of people know that shows that uh the jersey jack pins and it is more than just wonka but really all of them do seem to respond really notably when there are low power situations so if you're if you plugged into all one bank uh and the electricity may be not quite up to what It's supposed to be that things like the flippers start to feel kind of sluggish. And either you go into your settings and you crank those up, or if you didn't, then things kind of seem weak and sort of spongy. So that's been a common complaint that most people talk about in show settings, but usually in home settings people don't notice it.
    60:22
    So it's not ever been something that's really stood out to me regarding the slings themselves. And I have played all of their games a decent amount. Other than Woz, I think I've probably played less than 20 times. The magnets in this game are brutal. They are just relentless, and it is really frustrating at times. And there's also that, to the left of the gobstopper, if you get a bad kind of eject from the bumpers up there, from those pop bumpers up there, there's almost this special kind of domino effect that you're almost guaranteed to drain out. Yeah. And it's just super frustrating. But other than that, I mean, I am just not sick of this game at all. Yet, you rate Jurassic Park by Stern your number one, not Wonka. Why? It's a great question, Dennis. All my questions are great, Jeff. You'll learn this. It's, you know, I think Jurassic Park just edges it out. Because I think there's just a little bit, and this might sound crazy, but there's just a little bit more variety.
    61:37
    Like I said, there is that computer shot in Wonka that is just, the game just leans into so much. Whereas Jurassic Park feels much more fluid and much more, you know, kind of buried in what that game wants you to try and do. I think it has some of the most clever shots that I've seen. I mean, you know, that right upper flipper shot into that scoop is just so rad. I mean, I just think that's like I know it sounds super simple, but it's just like, man, that shot is so satisfying. It never gets old.
    62:13
    I think the gameplay loop jumping from paddock to paddock, making your way through the park, rescuing workers, you know, trapping dinosaurs. Whereas that loop for me is super, super satisfying.
    62:30
    That sense of agency you get moving the truck and deciding your path through the park and also realizing like certain paddocks have certain perks and really kind of getting to know, you know, what you're, you know, kind of like the game is going to decide half of it. But you really do have that agency where you can kind of dictate the way you want a certain game to go. I just love it. It is my most played game by far out of the ones I own.
    62:59
    And yeah, I mean, you could knock it for the sort of like half license that it has and the kind of like backing into that.
    63:10
    For me, there's really nothing that I want to play more than just getting into that zone and really making some progress. I also think it's super hard. I think it's a really hard game that, you know, like you're talking about, Tony, with having Adam's family sometimes just appear like this foreign language, right? Like sometimes that's how it goes with me in Jurassic Park. Like sometimes I'll just barely get through a paddock.
    63:41
    I love that variety that I get out of this one, and it's by far my favorite one right now without a doubt. Cool. Tony, what are your thoughts on? the old JP? I think it's an awesome game.
    63:55
    That's why when I was in Chicago, I spent so much time playing it up at Logan Arcade. That game was pretty new at that point, too, and it's just it presses all of the buttons, is the way I put it. It just kind of makes you happy to play. The shots are fun. The saving people is fun. It's just everything about moving through the game just makes you want to continue. So, yeah, no, I can't disagree. That game deserves to be up there at the top. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, I mean, of your entire list, I'd probably place it at number one as well, and I remember, you know, and it was tough last year when trying to pick kind of favorite games and stuff because Wonka was so good, but to me, basically everything you said, Jeff, it's like Jurassic Park was just a little bit better in pretty much every category other than light show really that i can come up with i like the rules better i think it's easier to understand and i agree with you about the variety i think it's a harder game than iron maiden in terms of layout which i liked i thought iron maiden was a bit of a long player which kind of frustrated me a little bit and i so again playing on location i like the ball times not to be too too excessively long so i like that some of the narration in Jurassic Park is kind of bad, but it's not grandpa bad. So again, Jurassic Park kind of, you know, it wins the fail contest slightly in that regard. And I think because they didn get very much in the way of assets it feels to me a lot more immersive So while there a lot of cool stuff that goes on on the Wonka screen in Jurassic Park I think they did a really good job making you feel like you're actually capturing dinosaurs and you're actually trying to rescue these workers. And I don't really feel that I'm doing anything in the chocolate. I feel like I'm trying to start Kid Multivol. So in that regard, yeah, I just think it just was a little bit better for me in every single category aside from Light Show. So, yeah, Wonka's light show is stellar. I mean, I don't know what could rival it. Maybe Total Nuclear Annihilation from Spooky. That's about it. So we got through your list. I thought it was a pretty good list. Well, thanks. That's why I want to talk about it. Right on. Yeah, I mean, you know, I feel like we'd be maybe doing a disservice not talking about a couple of, like, the maybe hang-ups with Jurassic Park. But, yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes that plunger shot doesn't always work out the way you want it to. And I think the reliability there is a bit of an issue. I was telling you I have the premium version so that T-Rex does have its issues sometimes. I definitely had to, like, you know, open up that guy's mouth and, like, understand what the hell is going on in there to really, like, you know, make it a more reliable kind of toy in there. But, yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate you saying that. that coming from people who know a lot more about pinball than I do, that definitely means a lot, so I appreciate that. Well, we only play like we know more on the radio. Yes. That's all we're doing. It's all very fluid and subjective, and people argue about this stuff in the hobby all the time, which is the fun of it, and that's why we get snarky and jokey because it's all for fun, guys. Oh, believe me. I work in video games. I'm Willow. No, no. Video games are never toxic. It's a happy place full of joy. We all wish we were in video games We all wish So I was going to do a little portion on What makes for a good pinball machine But I think we really touched on a lot of that When going through your list And we're going to be able to touch on it more Through the Stern Showdown So I'm going to jump right into that To keep us on our time task And so, Tony, are you familiar with the Stern Showdown? I don't know if you've seen it No, I haven't Because it's been pretty much just shared On Stern Pinball's Facebook page For weeks now they've been running a This is the standard bracket tournament Where they pit their stern games against other stern games to determine which stern reigns supreme. Probably not supreme the supreme game. I don't think it's in the list, so I don't think that one will be eligible. So most of the other pinball podcasts, Tony, have actually already played through this, but I did not because of two reasons. One, I'm lazy, and two, I didn't want to do what most of the other two host systems have had to do, which is like do a coin flip or something to decide ties. but we have Jeff. There will be no ties. Right on. Exactly. So now I know Jeff had told me a couple days ago that he wasn't familiar with all of the games in the Stern Showdown and that's fine. Just say when you don't know about one and we can describe it really quick because I think Tony and I have played all of these. So we should be okay. We should be good to go. So it's going to be really easy and I've got the bracket all here so I'll read it all aloud so don't worry. You don't have to look anything up. So the first matchup is Lord of the Rings versus Mustang. So, Jeff, are you familiar with both of those?
    68:51
    Not Mustang, but Lord of the Rings, of course, yeah. Okay. Mustang is a two-flipper layout. It's a John Trudeau design. I actually really think Mustang is an underrated game. I think it's a lot of fun, but they didn't sell a whole lot of them because the theme was Mustang. I mean, I don't know. Maybe a lot of people are Corvette fans. So, anyway, it just didn't do all that well. but competitively I think it's a really good it's a very hard game though it's got drops kind of in the middle sort of like Deadpool but on the opposite side and it just it plays really really fast in fact to me it's the fastest playing game aside from F14 Tomcat so for me I'm going to vote Lord of the Rings because I just think it's a much better I like the deep rule set it's a journey and I am a Lord of the Rings fanboy so what can I say Jeff, I don't know if I did Mustang justice but do you have a pick? It's funny because as you talked about it I was looking it up on Pinside but yes, it looks interesting but I can't not vote for Lord of the Rings It's definitely worth a play I'd be amazed if very many people would pick it over Lord of the Rings because Lord of the Rings is just kind of a classic game Will you pick it over Lord of the Rings, Tony? No, I won't. Okay, well, all right. Lord of the Rings gets to move on. Juckpot 3. Sorry, that's my best John Rhys-Davies. We didn't get him on this episode, so he can't do it for us. All right, next matchup. John Borg's Guardians of the Galaxy versus George Gomez's Batman 66.
    70:30
    Tony, rotate through. Actually, I started last time, so I'll rotate to Jeff. Jeff, are you familiar with both of these? Yeah. I feel like that's a that's like a five and six seed right like that's not a yeah yeah no this one this is not like Mustang and Lord of the Rings no these poor little one of these I don't know which one's going to fare through this I haven't actually picked yet that's why Jeff gets to go first I've played Guardians of the Galaxy a lot more but the times that I've played Batman 66 I've been I was really impressed I this is tough I gotta say I would say Guardians of the Galaxy by a hair. I mean, theme-wise, I am definitely much more into the Batman, the Batman 66 thing, but I know deep down that Guardians of the Galaxy is probably pound for pound the better game. All right. Tony. I'm going to go the same way, but it's so close. This is a coin flip right here. I mean, you could roll a die or flip a coin and choose between these, and it's not going to be a wrong answer. They're both a lot of fun. And I think now if this had been like original rule set, I would go the other way. But with how the rules have come up in Guardians, there's no. Yeah, it's got to be Guardians. But it's just just by a hair. Yeah, it goes to overtime for sure. Yeah. Well, my vote doesn't matter. But I would have I would have picked Guardians as well. I agree. They're both fun. It would have been close. Batman has better rules, but Guardians has good rules. They both actually started with garbage rules. So Batman had to be completely rebuilt, but they did rush that, I think, because of Adam West. Since he was dying of cancer, they were trying to get the game out, I think, for him to do all the LE signatures and everything and the custom voice work. So anyway, so Guardians will move on. I love the layout of Guardians. Hard game. All right, next matchup, Game of Thrones. That's a Steve Ritchie design. And then Kiss, another John Borg design. So let me ask first, Jeff, are you familiar with both? definitely more with Game of Thrones I've played them both I'm pretty sure Kiss is in one of the boardwalk arcades that I frequent I don't have necessarily strong opinions about either of them though well Tony will start us off this time so maybe he'll help guide you guide us Tony I'm going to go with Kiss on this one I enjoy both games I just think I don't think it's as tight as Guardians and Batman 66 is but it's still definitely not the kind of blowout that Lord of the Rings and Mustang would be but I think I enjoyed the shots in Kiss just a little bit more and I enjoy the overall play of the game just a tiny bit more okay well unfortunately Jeff I'm not going to make it easy on you because I'm picking Game of Thrones I like the layout of KISS I'm not a huge fan of the rules I think they're okay Game of Thrones I know has had a code update and I've not played the latest code update which further enhanced the rules but I really like the choosing of the house to determine your strategic approach to how you want to try and score points and even under the old code it wasn't just like well this is the one right answer well some of the houses were inferior there were two to three houses that were actually worth picking depending on your play strengths and so because of that and I'm really going Game of Thrones Pro I don't like the premium, I don't like the upper playfield but you go Pro with that high Steve Ritchie flow I love it more so I'm going Game of Thrones Alright Jeff, it's all on you You know, I don't have anything against either franchise I'm not going to let this be decided by franchise loyalty they're both just sort of not at the top of my list, but I don't know. The memories I do have of Game of Thrones, I must have played the premium for that upper left little play field, and I am a bit of a sucker for additional toys, so I think I am going to go Game of Thrones. Okay. Two to one, Game of Thrones will advance. All right. Next matchup in the four groupings in the Northwest bracket is Family Guy versus Walking Dead. I'll check in again, Jeff. have you played both of these? I have. Okay. Yeah. Am I voting first? No, I mean, if we're going to do the rotation, I guess it's my turn again. This is easy, Walking Dead. I own it for a reason. It's better in every way, other than the call-outs, unfortunately. But you can't win them all. So I'm going Walking Dead. All right, Jeff, you're up.
    75:21
    Yeah, I'm going Walking Dead also. I like Family Guy. I think that's a good game. I don't really have much against it But from just a pure Love for How a game's flow Can dictate how good a game is I mean you really can't Beat Walking Dead Tony it doesn't matter but what would you have picked Oh yeah it's Walking Dead There's no question Alright Now we're in the southwest region And Jeff you will go first this time Jurassic Park vs. WWE.
    75:58
    Which Jurassic Park? It's the one you own, the Stern Jurassic Park. It's not going to be the one they didn't make, right? Well, technically it was the same company. They traced their lineage all the way back to Data East.
    76:11
    Yeah, going to go with a long shot call here. Jurassic Park is going to have to take it. Tony, are you going to buck the trend? No, no, no. Okay, well.
    76:23
    WWE is like literally one of the worst games I've ever played in my life. No, that's just got to be bottom tier of all this. It's really bad. So, yeah, Jurassic Park, easy. All right, next matchup, Tony, you'll pick first here. X-Men versus Elvira's House of Horrors. X-Men. X-Men, really? Interesting. I think so. Okay. I'm going to put it, I enjoy everything I've played and everything about Elvira, but I think that could change if I played it more but I've got a lot more X-Men time and I enjoy it I think they're both good games I always get a little frustrated with how tight the shot layout is on X-Men so I'm going to go Elvira and split it here so Jeff you get to decide when I played Elvira I was super surprised with that game, it's really good I've got to go with Elvira alright, Elvira moves on I was shocked, too. I was amazed at how much I liked Elvira. I just thought it was going to be another fan layout.
    77:24
    All right, next matchup, I guess. Oh, I go first this time. It'll be Iron Man versus Stranger Things. Iron Man, it's brutal. I love the rules. I don't like the Demogorgon shot on Stranger Things, so I'm voting Iron Man. Jeff? Yeah, I think Stranger Things has maybe a way to go.
    77:42
    But, yeah, I think you can't really argue with it. Right now, everyone I talk to is just not a fan of that shot, and it's just not scratching the itch. I've got to go with Iron Man. All right. Tony, do you want to say what your opinion was? I'm going to argue with you completely. Iron Man is definitely the better game.
    78:05
    Sorry, Zach, many a flipping out pinball. I know you hate Iron Man and love Stranger Things. Oh, Iron Man is so brutal. I mean, I love the – yeah, that game, I enjoy it. Oh, right. Quite a lot. Jeff, you get to go first on this one. It's Ripley's Believe It or Not versus Metallica. So I don't think I've played Ripley's, but I've definitely played a lot of Metallica. Yeah, Ripley's is a very early Stern game, like 2003 or so. It's a lawler, I believe. Odd layout. It's got this weird Bagatelle upper play field. It's got a vary target that protects a scoop, if I remember correctly.
    78:48
    I mostly know it from Pinball Arcade and playing it virtually, but I have played it in person. We had it on location for a while. Yeah, check out the play field. I mean, I'm into what I'm seeing here with the play field. I do have a lot of experience with Metallica, so I'm just going to have to choose Metallica just because I'm so familiar with that game. Makes sense.
    79:08
    But, yeah, I am definitely intrigued by what I'm looking at here. All right. Tony. Which of the two? I'm going to go with Metallica because I think Metallica is just a classic. But Ripley's is a fun game. It's enjoyable. Yeah, I enjoy Ripley's, but I agree with you guys. Metallica is a superior pin. So I'm going to go with that. All right. Let's see. We've got six minutes. Don't worry. We're going to keep flying here. Northeast bracket. Tony, you're first. ACDC versus Transformers. ACDC. All right. He says ACDC. I agree. I think Transformers is a turd, actually. Not WWE bad, but bad. No, I hate that game. Okay. Oh, wow. I'm normally – I'm not a big Lawler fan, so I didn't think you and I are going to see eye to eye on a lot, Jeff. But so far, we actually are syncing up pretty well. All right. I'm first. Next is going to be the Beatles versus Star Trek. That's easy for me. I own Star Trek for a reason. I do really like Beatles, but I just think Star Trek is Steve Ritchie's best flow game he ever designed. Jeff, your pick.
    80:05
    I did not like Beatles. Oh, okay. I played it. I probably gave it like a good 40 minutes the first time I laid eyes on it. And, yeah, Star Trek for me is much more of a classic. Yeah. Okay. Tony, any thoughts? No arguments. Star Trek on top easily. All right, Jeff, you're first this time. Munsters versus Spider-Man. Oh, gosh. This is, again, the one versus the 16. Spider-Man for sure. Tony? Spider-Man. Yeah, it's unanimous. Oh, poor Munsters. How did we end up with a Guardians? I don't know. Some of the rest of these matchups are just insane. All right, Tony, you're first this time. Stern's Pirates of the Caribbean versus Stern's The Simpsons Pinball Party. Both older titles. I'm going to go with Pirates of the Caribbean, but I like both games pretty much about the same. I just like some of the shots in Pirates a little better. I'm also going with Pirates. I actually hate Simpsons and think it is a terrible layout. Absolutely terrible. Wow. I hate it. Okay. Jeff, what was your thought? I was actually going to go with Simpsons. I have a fondness for that game. I really dig it. It's really popular. I am a terrible abomination of an anomaly.
    81:25
    That's the way it is. All right. Final section bracket. Let's see. I'll go first. Deadpool versus Avengers. That's easy. Deadpool. I heard Jeff say yep Tony Alright Jeff you're first now Tron vs Black Knight Sword of Rage I did not like The Black Knight game So Tron by default will have to win Okay Tony I'm going to go the other way I'm going to go Black Knight I agree with Tony Black Knight's better Tron's a good game but to me it's not as good as Iron Man And I always compare the two But a beautiful fun game But between the two I'm going Black Knight Pro, though. I'm not doing the premium. Again, I want it to be flowy.
    82:09
    All right. Tony, you're first. Ghostbusters versus Star Wars. It's noted to be the comic edition, but the only difference there is the art.
    82:17
    Ghostbusters. Okay, Tony's Ghostbusters. I'm Ghostbusters as well. I just can't get into Star Wars. Yeah, me neither. I have a lot of issues with Ghostbusters, but for me, that matchup is Ghostbusters for sure. All right. And Jeff, you're first on this one. Aerosmith versus Iron Maiden. for me Maiden for sure but I feel like I've had a lot of good times with Aerosmith so I don't want that to just fall by the wayside Tony what are your thoughts I'm gonna go with Maiden but this is another one of those close ones yeah I really like Aerosmith but I agree that Maiden's the better game alright round two now we've already discussed the games a little bit so we can probably tear through it relatively quick Lord of the Rings vs. Guardians of the Galaxy Tony, you're up first. Lord of the Rings. I agree with you. Jeff? I might have gone Galaxy. All right. Well, two to one. Lord lives on. All right. I'm first now. Game of Thrones versus Walking Dead. Jeff? Walking Dead. Tony? Definitely. Okay. Walking Dead moves on. Jeff, you're up first. Jurassic Park versus Elvira. JP. All right. Tony? Yep. JP. I agree as well. Unanimous. All right, Tony, Iron Man versus Metallica. Iron Man. I agree. Jeff? Metallica. Sorry, Jeff. Metallica's dead. My vote doesn't matter. No, it's nothing. All right, I'll go first this time. ACDC versus Star Trek. I'm going to vote Star Trek. Jeff? Yeah, Star Trek. Tony? Definitely. Okay. All right, Jeff, you're up first. Spider-Man versus Pirates. Spider-Man. Tony? Agreed. I agree as well. All right, Spider-Man. Tony, you're first. Deadpool vs. Black Knight Sword of Rage. Deadpool. I agree. Jeff? Of course. Yeah, because you hated Black Knight.
    84:10
    Deadpool was the right answer anyway. I'm up first, I think, at this point. Ghostbusters vs. Iron Maiden. Jeff? Maiden. Maiden. All right, Tony.
    84:21
    Next round. Lord of the Rings vs. Walking Dead. Jeff, you're first. I'm going to go Walking Dead. All right, Tony? Same. I have to say so as well. I still want a Lord of the Rings, but Walking Dead is so good, guys. It's so fun. It's so good. All right. Tony, you're first. Jurassic Park versus Iron Man. Jurassic Park. I agree. Jeff? Yep, JP. All right. I'm first now. Star Trek versus Spider-Man. Well, they're basically the same game. But I actually like the flow better on Star Trek, so I'm going to go Star Trek. Jeff? Yeah. I think I'm there with you, man. All right, Tony. Same. All right. And Jeff, Deadpool versus Iron Maiden.
    85:06
    Yeah, that's a tough one, but I got to go with home court advantage. I'm going Deadpool. Tony? Yeah, I think so. Deadpool. I agree. All right, unanimous. All right, so let's see. Final four.
    85:22
    Let's see. I guess I'm first now. No, Tony, you're first. Walking Dead versus Star Trek. Oh, man. These are the two sterns I own. It's so sad. I'm going to go Walking Dead. Jeff, you get to decide it. I'm going to go Walking Dead. Okay. And let's see. I've got Jurassic Park versus Deadpool. I'm going Jurassic Park. Jeff? Yeah, just by a point or two, Jurassic Park. All right. And Tony, what was your opinion on it? Same. Okay. So it's Walking Dead versus Jurassic Park. Tony you go first I'm gonna go with Jurassic Park I'm gonna go Walking Dead So it comes all down to Jeff I mean it's number one on my list For a reason No It's gotta be JP Alright well I don't think the world's really Going to object too strongly It is perhaps the greatest Stern game ever made So for a reason We're at the end of the show Jeff, Mr. Bacalar Thank you so much for coming on and talking pinball with a couple of nobodies and putting up with our weird humor and strange opinions about pinball machines. Is there anything you'd like to plug here at the end? I really appreciate it. This was seriously a pleasure. Thank you for allowing me into your show. That's really awesome. Yeah, if you want to check out my podcast, it's called The Giant Beast Cast. It comes out every Friday. You can check that out wherever you get your podcast. And if you want to keep up with what I'm doing, follow me on Twitter. I'm at JeffBaccalar. alright and for those who want to reach out to Tony and me you can always email us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com we're also at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast on twitch twitter and instagram is eclectic underscore gamers and Tony and I will be back in two weeks probably doing another build a bank and talking about nothing else because there is no news because no one's making any machines until next time I'm Dennis I'm Tony and that's Jeff so goodbye everybody