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Episode 138 - So Which Came First?

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·57m 49s·analyzed·Apr 4, 2021
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TL;DR

Deep Root Pinball delays Raza to mid-May amid certification struggles; hosts debate manufacturing as pinball startup killer.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers Podcast Episode 138 discusses the Twippies awards results, a significant Deep Root Pinball update letter detailing manufacturing delays and certification challenges for the Raza machine, and plays a listener-submitted game about which came first between video game and pinball versions of the same franchises. The hosts emphasize Deep Root's ongoing production struggles despite having capital resources, and explore broader themes about manufacturing as the primary failure point for pinball startups.

Key Claims

  • Deep Root Pinball has been accepting pre-orders for five months without shipping Raza machines due to UL/CE certification delays

    high confidence · Letter from Robert J. Mueller dated April 1st stating 'We are coming up on five months now since we opened up orders' and detailing certification status

  • Deep Root will discontinue surplus Raza machines; only pre-ordered units will be manufactured

    high confidence · Letter states: 'now doesn't make any sense to make more Raza machines than orders' and 'there will not be any surplus machines'

  • Deep Root projects no significant updates for six weeks, with next communication in mid-May regarding financial relief options

    high confidence · Letter: 'there will not be any significant updates in the next six weeks. Our goal is to update in mid-May'

  • Manufacturing, not game design, has consistently been the primary failure point for pinball startups (Highway, Dutch Pinball, Skit-B)

    high confidence · Dennis: 'Where did Highway fail in the manufacturing? Where did Dutch Pinball struggle... It was on the production side... It's always the manufacturing delays'

  • Kerry Hardy published a YouTube video discussing Deep Root issues using the word 'scam'

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'The newest I've seen was was Kerry's latest video where I think he may have used the word scam. That's the first I've ever heard such aggressive language in public'

  • Deep Root originally announced plans to launch with five or six games ready at launch, now struggling with one machine

    high confidence · Tony: 'remember, originally Deep Root was saying that they were going to launch with five or six games ready to go at launch'

  • The Big Bang Bar reissue has damaged the pinball hobby by encouraging speculative collecting over gameplay enjoyment

    medium confidence · Tony: 'Big Bang Bar, the reproduction of it, I think has done more damage to the hobby of pinball than anything else in the entire history of this hobby'

Notable Quotes

  • “Despite the past, we don't want to be known as the company that customers can rely on for delays... we understand the importance of delivering on the promises made.”

    Robert J. Mueller, Deep Root Pinball @ Letter dated April 1st — Core acknowledgment of Deep Root's failure to meet self-imposed deadlines; signals awareness of reputational damage

  • “I just wonder how long, I mean, when is it not worth it anymore? When do you just go ahead and say, okay, it didn't work, we failed, let's give up?”

    Tony @ ~19:00 — Expresses skepticism about Deep Root's viability; questions company's long-term survival prospects

  • “Just because you like somebody doesn't mean that a they've made a good life choice b that their very existence with a company means that it's a good company... I don't judge those people for believing. I guess I judge a little bit.”

    Dennis @ ~26:00 — Critiques the logical fallacy of trusting companies based on designer reputation; warns against tribal defense of failing enterprises

  • “It's unfortunate in a lot of ways, but any new manufacturer is always going to have this greater degree of skepticism.”

    Dennis @ ~23:00 — Contextualizes structural challenge for new pinball manufacturers in market; notes systemic skepticism from operators and buyers

  • “The theme isn't attractive to anyone. And the return of J-Pop clearly isn't enough of a motivator to sell games, at least not for a brand new company.”

    Tony @ ~17:00 — Suggests Raza's poor pre-order performance may be due to IP/theme weakness rather than manufacturing alone

  • “What if in the course of those discussions I had learned something that made me think that the company might be in trouble? The NDA would have completely paralyzed my ability to report that.”

    Dennis @ ~24:30 — Explains rationale for refusing NDAs in pinball industry; highlights conflict between access and transparency

  • “I dare not predict anymore. I almost think just off of force of will that they're going to ship Raza at some point, if nothing else, just to tie a bow on that chapter.”

Entities

Deep Root PinballcompanyRobert J. MuellerpersonRetro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Raza)gameKerry HardypersonDennispersonTonypersonMatt RobertspersonBruce Nightingaleperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root discontinuing surplus machine production, limiting Raza to pre-ordered units only; suggests poor pre-order performance and/or inability to fulfill excess capacity

    high · Mueller letter: 'now doesn't make any sense to make more Raza machines than orders' and 'there will no longer be surplus machines'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern Pinball reports 5,000-unit backlog on GNR; production capacity constraints cited as primary operational challenge, not design

    medium · Dennis: 'CERN being behind by 5,000 games... they can't build them fast enough'

  • ?

    community_signal: Debate around Deep Root personnel as indicators of company stability; hosts reject logic that designer reputation guarantees company success; reference to Kevin Kulik/Skit-B as historical parallel

    high · Dennis: 'Just because you like somebody doesn't mean... that their very existence with a company means that it's a good company... I still remember when people had faith in Kevin Kulik with Skit B'

  • ?

    community_signal: The Twippies awards now publishing detailed voting breakdown for first time; represents shift toward transparency after historical hesitation

    high · Dennis: 'I did like when they put out their thing that said exactly how many votes everybody got... they've not done that before, as I recall'

  • ?

    community_signal: NDA practices in pinball industry create tension between access and transparency; Dennis and community members debate ethics of signing NDAs given constraints on reporting

    medium · Dennis: 'The NDA would have completely paralyzed my ability to report that' and reflection on Deep Six NDA situation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.173

0:00
Welcome to the Collected Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, April 4th. This is episode 138. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. Oh, Tony, there's so much to do. But first, happy birthday. Thank you very much We're actually recording on my birthday We normally wouldn't do it But we all forgot I even forgot One of these days You old I'm younger than you That's true but I didn't forget my birthday But one of these days One of these days we will record a podcast On April Fool's Day and it'll be fun Oh yeah We've had so many great ideas on what we would do The stars have not yet aligned. Yeah. When they do, it's going to be epic.
1:04
It'll be amazing. Granted, we'll probably be like in our 90s, recording podcasts in a rocking chair. When we get back able to record in person again here soon, I think we should do a video one. It doesn't have to be in April Fool's, but I think we should do straight down the left outline. We basically do the straight down the middle pinball show, but we just do it better.
1:26
Oh, yeah. And we put it out on our YouTube. alright makes sense to me I think we do an entire episode of what I will call that or this where I'll say we'll go through like would you pick that pinball machine or this pinball machine and it will be better than theirs it'll just be better because we're better that's all and we'll throw it up on our YouTube and everyone will be like yay pinball version of FMK and everyone will be like yay and they'll be like where are the ads and it's like well our YouTube we don't have enough people on it to monetize it So there are no ads. There are no ads. Making us even better. It's ad free. Ad free. Delay free. Lighting free. Mod sponsor free.
2:08
You don't even need ad block. Free. Special effects free. Yeah, yeah. No, I ain't going to all that trouble. We ain't dropping all that work. So, what's been going on, Tony? Before your birthday, what's been going on? Before my birthday, what's been going on is I have, you know what? I've not even really played a ton of video games. I've played some, um, but I've mainly been reading. Uh, I've gotten with this whole, with the whole, you can't see people, yada, yada. Almost all of my birthday presents have come to me via mail and I got most of them like a week ago. So I've been reading books, uh, like actual physical books that I got for my birthday plus reading books just like on my Kindle, like I normally do. And I've just been kinda, I won't say offline I've played, but not like I normally do. So I, but you've been staying busy. Yeah. I've been staying busy though. Like I read, uh, I finished reading Mr. Mercedes, which, Hey, a Stephen King novel that has nothing, supernatural in it is amazingly interesting. It was a decent detective novel.

Stern Pinball cannot build GNR machines fast enough, being behind by 5,000 units

medium confidence · Dennis: 'When you think about what's the big problem with GNR right now, they can't build them fast enough. CERN being behind by 5,000 games'

Dennis @ ~27:00 — Expresses resignation about Deep Root's trajectory; suggests minimal expectation of future growth

  • “Supply chain disruptions... they've outsourced so much that they cannot... it doesn't matter if it's food truck or goonies or any other game... they can't build anything.”

    Tony @ ~16:30 — Identifies root cause of Deep Root's paralysis; notes that manufacturing bottleneck prevents any product launch

    • Papa Duke / J-Popperson
    Kevin Kulikperson
    Highway Pinballcompany
    Dutch Pinballcompany
    Skit-Bcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    The Twippiesevent
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Eclectic Gamers Podcastorganization
    Beatles Rock Bandgame
    Big Bang Bargame
    GNR (Guns N' Roses)game
  • ?

    product_concern: Parts availability and support infrastructure risk for Raza customers; discontinuing surplus machines means no parts buffer for mechanical failures post-release

    medium · Tony: 'are they going to be able to get replacement parts or... will there actually be some surplus of things... if a mech breaks are you just going to have to try and repair it?'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Historical pattern identified: manufacturing, not design, is consistent failure mode across multiple startups (Highway, Dutch, Skit-B); supply chain disruptions paralyze Deep Root despite having multiple game designs ready

    high · Dennis: 'It's always the manufacturing delays. It's not game development delays... Where did Highway fail? Where did Dutch Pinball struggle? It was on the production side'

  • $

    market_signal: Deep Root offering financial relief options (store credit, discounts, refunds with 'nominal interest') to pre-order customers in mid-May; indicates customer retention risk

    high · Mueller letter: 'to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the Rasa purchase, or allow customers to rescind Rasa purchases for a refund'

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market speculation and collectible-focused purchasing undermining gameplay enjoyment; Big Bang Bar reissue cited as catalyst for this behavior pattern

    medium · Tony: 'Big Bang Bar... has done more damage to the hobby of pinball than anything else... It made people believe in the dice throw'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root Pinball's Raza machine now five months into pre-orders with no shipping; UL/CE certifications still pending; next update not until mid-May (six weeks away)

    high · Letter from Robert J. Mueller: 'We are coming up on five months now since we opened up orders... there will not be any significant updates in the next six weeks'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community skepticism of Deep Root hardening; Kerry Hardy's YouTube video using aggressive language ('scam') marks first major public criticism from insider; contrasts with prior NDA silence

    medium · Dennis: 'The newest I've seen was was Kerry's latest video where I think he may have used the word scam. That's the first I've ever heard such aggressive language in public'

    • 3:32
    I guess this is a detective novel? I guess that's how it will qualify as. It's a trilogy. I'm reading the second one of that trilogy now. I read some other stuff. Some coffee table books and a couple non-fiction things. I got a novella that just dropped in the mail, so I need to read it.
    4:02
    Yeah. It's been real calm. What have you been up to? Well, I have... I actually continued reading in the Dune series yesterday, so I finally picked that back up. I hadn't probably read that in over two months. I had it right on my shelf and I just sit right beside me but I just hadn't been reading it. Which book are you on? I'm still on the fourth one.
    4:29
    I did that reread of the first one the other month or two ago now but I haven't gone any farther past the first one.
    4:39
    And I'm still working on Assassin's Creed Odyssey. I was playing that this morning. There's so many quests. I don't usually make a lot of progress during weekdays on it so I'm... That's what I play Friday through Sunday. Right. Anyway, so I've been pretty consistent with that. It's such a large game. It's just taking a long time. But I'm making good progress in that. So that's pretty much it.
    5:04
    So I think we can probably just get right into our topics. We can. So in pinball, just a couple of things. First, congratulations. The Twippies were held prior week, prior weekend. So congratulations to the winners of the Twippies. I don't think we need go over the results or anything, but I just wanted to go ahead and say that. I did like when they put out their thing that said exactly how many votes everybody got. Well, that only listed how many first place votes everyone got. Right. And then the percentages were the actual, like, what I'd quote-unquote real value. I think that confused a few people, but... I liked having that as something to look at. That's something I did like, yeah. because they've not done that before, as I recall. Jeff has released the results last year, he did, on PennSide. It wasn't on the website. No, it was just on PennSide. Well, that explains why I didn't see it. Maybe they did. Well, I apologize to Jeff if I'm incorrect. However, I do remember him releasing information on the breakdowns on PennSide. Historically, he didn't release the breakdowns on the favorite categories. I think he had some concerns, if I'm remembering correctly, about how people might react. Would it make people feel bad if they saw they got a really low percentage? But there was so much demand to know that in 2020, for the 2019 results, he did end up putting those out on the pinball forum. Right. And I think that it's fine to release that. If there's drama, and of course I think that there is, and I've weighed in on that, my opinion on that's pretty well known. But if you're going to do the drama comes from doing the favorites outright. So if you're going to do it, I don't really see much. I don't really see much in the way of additional harm of releasing what the breakdown is. I mean, most of the people are probably pretty pleased that they got nominated. I mean, you look at even if you were like 10th podcast, that's still higher than Eclectic Gamers was when we didn't even get nominated. So you see, it's like it's still good.
    7:10
    Yeah, yeah, it's still good. You got a good number of votes on your Italian bottom. Did I? I don't remember how it even placed. Somewhere in the kind of middle of the pack. Oh, yeah, my publication, yeah. Yeah, and the pinball show was in the top three on the podcast side. I actually wasn't surprised at that, but we hadn't solicited. We didn't ask anyone to vote for the show or anything. So it was nice that people enjoyed it. But anyway, I just wanted to note that that is now done, And I think that is pretty much the end of awards season. I'm not sure if there are any other pinball awards coming up. But if we hear about them, we will let people know. Yeah, because that's going to require somebody to create a new one. Well, and they might. I mean, there were the Reach Arounds this year. We had the Pinball Industry Awards. You have Pinball News always gives out a Game of the Year award.
    8:04
    Stuff like that. Some of those are more fun than others, I suppose. Like the Reach Arounds, they're a little more tongue-in-cheek, one would say. One might be able to judge that from the name of them.
    8:14
    But in darker news, I have a Deep Root update. No. Yes. So this is the latest fortnightly drama. So I have a link in the show notes to the letter, the purported letter. The link is to Pennside. And someone pasted this in. So I'm calling it the purported letter because I do not have the official documentation from Deep Root. So I cannot guarantee that this actually came from Deep Root. But my understanding is there have been multiple reports saying that this is what those who have purchased Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, who have pre-ordered it, or what we commonly refer to as Raza, have received. So I believe it's authentic, but I just have to note that it wasn't a screenshot. This was like someone typed in the text or pasted the text in. So anyway, just FYI, I'm going to go and read it, Tony, so that we all have the context of this. And obviously, for those that haven't been following the story, Raza has been missing deadlines in terms of when it was expected per the company Deep Roots own predictions as to when they were going to ship them. So here's what it says. Dear Raza customer, we hope all is well. As promised before, we want to provide a timely update about where things are now. As an aside, I believe this dropped on April 1st. Not the best day to drop news. No, probably not. That's not Deep Root's fault. April 1st is a terrible day. It's just a terrible day.
    9:52
    So I still remember, and I think every year, the IFPA, International Flipper Pinball Association, now always does a joke on April 1st because that was the day they announced the dollar fee and everyone thought it was a joke, but it wasn't. So now, anyway, just back to the letter.
    10:11
    The latest we have from the lab is the UL for the USA and Canada reports are being prepared. We have passed the SAA requirements and 95% of the CE requirements. While product safety have passed, the emissions and interference test metrics for a few of the CE countries require additional modifications. We are still being told that it will take four to five weeks for the final CE certification reports after our fixes pass the tests. The UL reports should be herein in the next few weeks, which will allow us to move forward on those machines. We continue to appreciate many of our vendors being able to timely get us quality parts to spec. Unfortunately, some vendors are still having issues with global and regional supply chain disruptions. We thank you again for your patience. Despite the past, we don't want to be known as the company that customers can rely on for delays. Our entire team is very cognizant of that and are working hard to be accountable for lead and timelines. We are coming up on five months now since we opened up orders. When our teams are confident that they could delivery by February to March, we definitely are frustrated at our inability to follow through and overcome internal and external obstacles. While some things are outside of our control, we understand the importance of delivering on the promises made. As such, it now doesn't make any sense to make more Rasa machines than orders. With current lead times on the certifications and parts, there will not be any significant updates in the next six weeks. Our goal is to update in mid-May, and at that time, if games are not imminently ready to start shipping, to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the Rasa purchase, or allow customers to rescind Rasa purchases for a refund with nominal interest. To those on this mail list that are not Rasa customers but are waiting for surplus machines, we are so sorry that there will no longer be surplus machines. However, if some Rasa customers decide to rescind their contracts, we will offer those first-come, first-served machines to the list for the original prices. Please do not contact us about this yet. We will only be able to provide an idea of availability closer to the end of May once purchasers decide if they want to rescind their purchase. Best, Robert J. Mueller, Principal, Deep Root Pinball. okay so that's the end of the letter it seemed to be fairly rapidly written like where I tried to say I didn't make modifications so where it sounded like I said the wrong words I believe that's because they were written wrong so there were a few minor issues in the write up but Tony okay so we're going to wait another six weeks for the next news update um this obviously was out on and is being discussed on pin side i had more than one person contact me that uh carrie hardy had a youtube video talking about this he was one of the deep six those are the six people that went down and got to tour the facility many months ago um and and find out what was going on with the with the development of raza and deep root pinball as a whole company and so i figured we should probably we've noted a few of the delays being you know delays being announced all throughout this year, 2021. But we haven't spent a significant amount of time since the start of the new year talking about this. In a way, I'm not too surprised. When they announced that they were going for the UL and CE certifications, I felt that their projected timelines were really aggressive. I didn't understand how they really could get their approvals in as quickly as they seemed to think they could. And this was sort of echoed by Bruce Nightingale, who is one of the hosts over at the Slam Tilt podcast, talking about how long UL certification normally takes. So I may have been basing some of my own predictions off of what he was specifying. But I mean, regardless, they're very behind. As was noted in the in the email this letter indicates that they had come up on five months since the orders were open And remember before all of this even though there were a lot of delays versus their own self deadlines they hadn taken anyone money but they have people money now So what are your thoughts?
    14:37
    I think that they expected just a massive outpouring of pre-orders that didn't happen. I think that's why they are not doing any extra machines.
    14:55
    And I think that just the very fact that they are still struggling to get any of this stuff put together after, like you said, they've already taken people's money, is an indication of what we can expect from them for however much longer they last.
    15:21
    Yeah, I mean, I get this decision to not do the surplus machine. Rasa is essentially, I think, a failed product. It pre-ordered incredibly poorly, at least based off of what I would have assumed I would have wanted if I were a company. and I mean we're talking even with the what was that what was the number of machines they were planning to build around 130 ish I don't remember it was like less than America's Most Haunted though and that was with the surplus if I remember correctly so that's like so you're dropping all of that I think this is going to raise some red flags raises red flags I imagine some of the pre-order folks are going to be concerned now about when things go wrong on their games are they going to be able to get replacement parts or is that like they don't want to deal with trying to get the parts for the for the surplus game so there's not going to be any stock like if some if a mech breaks are you just going to have to try and repair it or or will there actually be some surplus of things to be able to contact the company and get things fixed i i would guess probably not, or if there is a surplus, it's going to be super minor.
    16:38
    There's no way that there's going to be an easy fix, just throw a new one in type thing for most of these parts if they're making so few. I mean, this is how far we've come from, remember, originally Deep Root was saying that they were going to launch with five or six games ready to go at launch. yes that was so long ago it seems because it was so long ago yes and now they're bumbling through getting one machine out well and this is this is they are stumbling where i think most people in the hobby thought they would stumble the manufacturing and i don't think it was because the hobbyists have any sort of great degree of foresight it's just we've seen this same routine time and time again. Where did Highway fail in the manufacturing? Where did Dutch Pinball struggle for years and only now start to get back and be able to do Big Lebowski? It was on the production side. Same thing with the manufacturing delays. It's always the manufacturing delays. It's not game development delays. I mean, we've seen some instances like with Stern Pinball, for example, where they release sort of code incomplete. But when you think about what's the big problem with GNR right now, they can't build them fast enough. CERN being behind by 5,000 games. It's not games that haven't been announced yet. It's stuff they just can't build them fast enough. Right. And that kind of brings up an idea or a concern. I won't say a concern, but you would think that with how long they've been pushing Raza and how many people they have or had, I'm not actually sure of their current number of employees, that they should have another game ready. If manufacturing is the only holdup and they have so many designers on board designing games, they should have another game that's at the end of the design phase. And I think they do. but if the same supply chain disruptions would would impact that it's sort of a well what good is it what good is it if barry's food truck is ready to go if they can't get pin bars built yeah because it got stuck i mean they're just waiting i mean if i were deep root part of me would be like where i think this letter suggests that they're going is all right sigh. Raza is a failure. We have to pull the plug. We're going to ship out the ones to the people that bought them. But we need to just move past Raza. We spent way too long on Raza. The theme isn't attractive to anyone. And the return of J-Pop clearly isn't enough of a motivator to sell games, at least not for a brand new company. So we need to move to something else. We need to get new excitement. but if all of this is true and i don't see any reason to think it's not that they really do have supply chain disruption challenges they're stuck they've outsourced so much that they cannot they can't build anything they couldn't build it doesn't matter if it's food truck or goonies or any other any other game any other design they i i think robert has five or so i think they have five designs ready to go. I think they do. But what's the point? It's not, it's no good. I can't build any of them. Right. And at what point are they, how long can they continue to pour out this kind of money with no product?
    20:25
    I don't know. It depends. I mean, the, the one thing that deep roots always had versus a lot of the other startups, any of the other startups I can think of is they seem to have a large of capital that they've been able to access.
    20:37
    But it's like, I just wonder how long, I mean, when is it not worth it anymore? When do you just go ahead and say, okay, it didn't work, we failed, let's give up? I think that's the question. And are they there yet? I don't know.
    20:53
    I've got a track record of being really bad about assuming when somebody's going to completely fail in pinball because there are several companies that I thought were going to close the doors and they're still somehow hanging on with torn and bloody fingernails. But I think if they can't get another game out, well, if they can't get Raza out, if they can't sit down and get the hundred and some odd games built and out, why would you expect them to be able to get the next round of games out for whatever the next theme is, if it's the meme-tastic food truck or Goonies or any of the other things that they have teased?
    21:46
    Well, this is the challenge I think that any new manufacturer faces in the hobby. I still remember when we had one of our at the time area operators who was talking to me about how he had played Dialed In and Houdini. And he preferred Houdini. But American Pinball was new, and he was really concerned what would happen if he bought the game, and they went out of business, and then there was a parts issue. And so he routed Dialed In instead.
    22:18
    And so this is something that any... It's unfortunate in a lot of ways, but any new manufacturer is always going to have this greater degree of skepticism. skepticism you know this is i think you know most of us except for those who and obviously the hobby is bringing in new people all the time so there are people that don't know the lessons of the past that like you and i were in the hobby we were we remember when highway folded yeah but not everyone does and you know i've seen some people discussing whether or not have we been were we warned about deeper most of us who were around and saw what happened with skit b and highway and Dutch are familiar with knowing that you have to be skeptical with any new startup in this hobby. It's just the manufacturing has tripped up so many that you know to be prepared for that. Even those that have been successful have struggled with the manufacturing.
    23:12
    I suppose some people could have done a better job about warning us. I mean, and we, you know, we had a discussion at the time when the, you know, the deep six going out there and then they had all agreed to NDAs. So it was like, well, what good are you to us if you can't tell us the truth? But even after they were released from the NDAs, I found very few of them were willing to be very public about high level criticism. The newest I've seen was was Kerry's latest video where I think he may have used the word scam. That's the first I've ever heard such aggressive language in public. I had I had someone who was one of the deep six warned me privately that they had serious concerns, but I'd never seen them say anything publicly. And, you know, you and I, we've had, you know, we've had this, because it's a catch-22. You wouldn't know at all if you didn't go and sign the NDA. But when you go and you sign an NDA, you no longer speak for the people anymore. Yeah. You've given that up. You've burned that bridge, one might say, because you've taken, and this is, I'm sorry, I'm segueing a little bit, but I think it's interesting for those of us who do this, do the commentary side of the hobby because it's a question of do you want access or do you want to talk to the people? Sort of thing. And I just think it's something that everyone needs to... There's not a right answer. We might feel we have what's the right answer for us. Your stance, Tony, on NDAs is very well known, that you don't agree to NDAs. Not at all. And I'll give a... And generally, I suppose I could think of a scenario where I would probably feel an NDA was justifiable that I would consent to, but I haven't run into it yet. I'll give the closest I've come. This was months ago, but I had an established manufacturer approach me and ask me if I would sign an NDA so that I could discuss licensed video game concepts to bring to pinball. And I turned it down, even though I thought it would have been a really fun thing to do. because my concern was, even though there weren't any red flags to make me worry about this, what if in the course of those discussions I had learned something that made me think that the company might be in trouble? Right. The NDA would have completely paralyzed my ability to report that. So I just couldn't do it. I mean, I have signed NDAs in the past, but it's always been when I've been part of the larger beta testing of a game type thing.
    25:44
    Sure. Where they have a known end date and it's not a huge, it's not the same level deal as what these types of NDAs would be. Right, because in that case, that's where you have to evaluate them in context. And I think a lot for the Deep Six, I think their assumption was they were going to go get to see the facility and the NDA was just going to be for a few days. And ultimately it did get lifted. I believe that I recall Robert pulling the NDA. It took a while, but eventually everyone was sort of relieved from that burden. But at the time, we remember how weird it was because all these people went down there and then there was no news. And then there was a leak. And then Twip put out a piece after the leak happened, which was the official kind of thing. and everyone was just sort of reading, everyone who went was just sort of reading that article to us on all the interviews or shows that they did. You know, it was just, it was just, everything with Deep Root is, in a way, it's playing out kind of how we've seen it play out with other entities before. The difference is they have these financial resources, so they've been able to survive better than most of the other ones that have struggled to have. But I just, I just don't know. I just don't see a, I don't see a happy end game here. and I will say this and I really respect a lot of the people who work at Deep Root but I am getting a little tired of people saying because so-and-so works at Deep Root I have faith in them I do not the it would be like if I worked at Deep Root and let's say some of you liked me why would you think that me being there somehow meant that the company was stable but what do I know that would make you think that that like somehow i have that degree of sophistication that i'm just like the barometer of of pinball manufacturing success like tony look at how many predictions i've had wrong i mean it's just one of those things just because you like somebody doesn't mean that a they've made a good life choice b that their very existence with a company means that it's a good company. I mean, how many halfway decent people worked for, you know, Enron? How many good people have gotten pulled into the, what do you call them, the pyramid schemes over the years?
    28:12
    How many halfway decent people have you suddenly gotten a message from wanting to talk to you about They're essential oils, and then you have to delete them as friends. I mean, I still remember on the forums when people had faith in Kevin Kulik with Skit B and were defending him because they believed in him. They believed he was serious. They believed he was honest. And it just didn't work out. And we get it wrong. People get it wrong. I don't judge those people for believing. I guess I judge a little bit. but I understand how I not saying they should have known better it just you need to understand just because that they designers at Deep Root that you like that doesn mean that that means the company is going to succeed And we've seen that time and again. So anyway, it's unfortunate. I guess we'll find out in mid-May what the status of all this is.
    29:13
    I dare not predict anymore. I almost think just off of force of will that they're going to ship Raza at some point, if nothing else, just to tie a bow on that chapter, even if they decide to go out of business after it. But at this point, they're making so few of them who really cares. Right. And I am deeply interested to see how many customers rescind their contracts.
    29:43
    Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Because now also with the no surplus and stuff, you're getting into that realm where people are going to want to roll the dice because could this end up being a game that sells for two or three times the amount that it retailed for because it's rare and collectible? Lebowski effect, alien effect, grossly overpriced games well beyond what their actual playability would warrant. That's where I thought a lot of the stuff like with Skippy and stuff and Dutch, where that came from was everyone wanted the next Big Bang Bar. That's what that was. Big Bang Bar, the reproduction of it, I think has done more damage to the hobby of pinball than anything else in the entire history of this hobby. Because it made people believe in the dice throw. And I don't understand the mindset of the people who that's their big goal when they buy a game. is it's just about, it's like the people who, you know, it's the expensive version of getting the collectible Beanie Babies. That's what it is.
    30:50
    It's the same thing. Anything when you pick it up, less about your personal enjoyment and more about what it can get you on the back end. I just have a harder time understanding that. Not that there's anything wrong with doing, if that's how you collect and that's how you hobby. For me, it's just strange. I think it is for most, but some people, I guess, approach it more like an investment. So that's sort of the angle they come from with it.
    31:16
    I can see that, I guess. Well, that's our only real news topic to news our news about. News our news? Yeah, I know. That didn't make any sense. But what will make sense is I have a transition topic to move us into video games. And this comes from one of our listeners, Matt Roberts. He wants us to play a game. And so Matt wrote in and he said, I was just thinking that 20 questions has been missing from the show. And that led me to come up with this new game. So which came first, the video game or the pinball machine? So he sent a separate email with the answers. And I haven't opened that email up yet to our EGP account, which, by the way, you can always write in to us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com, which is what Matt did. And so he sent us sort of the same sort of thematic games. One's a video game and one is pinball machine. And we need to decide which one came first. So I actually printed out his list and I'll make notes as we go through these and then on what we've picked. And then I'll load up the answers and we'll score them and we'll see the results in real time. Tony, does it make sense? Yes, it does. This is kind of an interesting idea. Yes. So here we go. So the first one is which came first, the Beatles rock band or the Beatles gold edition pinball machine by Stern? well that's the rock band I agree with you so let me put our initials under that one alright next one Arkham Asylum or Stern's Batman the Dark Knight I agree with you as well alright Guitar Hero Metallica or Stern's Metallica ooh um see I never played Guitar Hero I only played rock band I'm going to go with Guitar Hero Metallica But I am unsure I'm going with Stern Metallica But it's a blind guess Alright ACDC Live Rock Band Or Track Pack The ACDC Live Rock Band Track Pack That's very specific Matt Or ACDC by Stern I agree Alright Star Trek Online or Stern Pinball Star Trek Online. I'm going to say Stern Star Trek. But you said that so confidently, I think I'm wrong. All right. Lego the Hobbit or JJP's The Hobbit? Hmm.
    33:42
    I'm going with Lego the Hobbit for reasons. I'm going with that one as well. All right. Lego Pirates of the Caribbean or Stern's Pirates of the Caribbean? Not JJP's, Stern's. Stern's Pirates of the Caribbean. I agree with you.
    33:58
    All right. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order or Stern Star Wars? Pinball. Stern Star Wars Pinball. I think you're right.
    34:10
    Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic or Williams Star Wars Episode I? Oh, man. Oh, Matt, this is so mean. Oh, man. This is so far back. Oh, God. I'm going to go with Star Wars Episode I by Williams. I'll tell you what I've written, because I wrote it down in my ink pen. I'm trying to... I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to go with Star Wars Episode I by Williams. Okay.
    34:41
    NBA Jam, the arcade cabinet version, or Bally's NBA Fast Break Pinball? Fast Break. Okay. I'm going to go with NBA Jam. All right. Jurassic World Evolution or Stern's Jurassic Park?
    34:58
    Evolution. That's what I will pick as well. All right. The Lord of the Rings Online or Stern's Lord of the Rings?
    35:08
    Stern's Lord of the Rings. I agree with you. All right. Fester's Quest or Bally's The Addams Family? Wow.
    35:18
    Wow. I've heard of Fester's Quest, but I think it's fine. I've played Fester's Quest. I'm going to go with Fester's Quest. I'm going to go with Bally's Addams Family.
    35:31
    All right. Revolution X or Stern's Aerosmith? I don't even know what a Revolution X is. I'm going to go with Revolution X. I'm going to go with Revolution X as well. Okay.
    35:45
    Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb or Williams' Indiana Jones the Pinball Adventure? Emperor's Tomb. I think you're right. So I'm going to agree with you there. All right. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade cabinet or Data East's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pinball? I'm going to go with the arcade cabinet. I will go with the pin. Because that's, oh, man, that's tough. Yeah. All right. Tron Evolution or Stern's Tron Legacy? Tron Legacy. Okay. I'm going to go with Tron Evolution.
    36:16
    All right. The Walking Dead, the Telltale definitive series or Stern's Walking Dead? Telltale. Gosh, I played it. I'm just, when did it come out? Well. I'm going to go with the pen. Well, I was going to say. Because it says definitive series. It's definitive series. If it's definitive series, I'll go with the pen. Okay, I'll change your result. Yeah. Let me scratch it out. Sorry, that's just one of those things. If it was chapter one, I'm almost positive chapter one was before the pen. But definitive series implies that it's all of it. Alien Isolation or Highway Pinball's Alien? Alien Isolation. I'm going with that as well. But you know what? I bet Alien by Highway was announced before Alien Isolation came out. That's where I think I'm struggling.
    37:06
    All right. Super Mario Bros. 3 or Gottlieb's Super Mario Bros. Mushroom World? Mario Bros. 3. I think you're right.
    37:17
    X-Men Legends or Stern's X-Men? Ooh. That's tough. You know, one of these is going to be one of the ones where we're going to go, that's tough, and then there's going to be like a 10-year difference between them. Yeah, and they'll be like, no, it wasn't tough at all. We're just bad. I'm going to go with X-Men Legends.
    37:40
    Yeah, I think I agree with you. Okay. Terminator Resistance or Williams Terminator 2 Judgment Day Pinball?
    37:49
    Terminator 2 Judgment. day. I'll agree with you. I don't remember Resistance. Transformers, Rise of the Darkspark, or Stern Transformers?
    37:59
    I never put a Darkspark. I might have. I've heard of it. I've heard of it. I'm going with the pinball machine. War of Cybertron and the other and the straight Transformers beat-em-up thing and I will go with the pinball machine. The Simpsons Arcade Cabinet Or Data East The Simpsons Pinball The Arcade Cabinet I agree A Nightmare on Elm Street By LJN Or Freddy A Nightmare on Elm Street Gottlieb's Pinball Machine LJN I'm going to go with the pen I don't remember LJN GoldenEye 007 For the Nintendo 64 Or Sega's GoldenEye Pinball Machine GoldenEye on N64 I'm going to go with the pen Spider-Man for the Atari 2600 Or the Amazing Spider-Man by Gottlieb Oh my god Matt this is so mean This is evil I don't remember Spider-Man for the Atari I'm going to go with the pinball Yeah I am too Junior Pac-Man Arcade Cabinet or the pinball machine Baby Pac-Man?
    39:18
    I'm going to go with the pin, Baby Pac-Man. I'll go with the cabinet. Okay. All right, that's it. That's all of them. I think there are like 20 here. That was rough. Holy crap. All right, so let me load up his answer email. All right. Answer is marked in green, and years have been added.
    39:37
    All right. Good, so we don't know when the ones where we think it's really hard, it should have been like, oh. You made this really easy. Wow. This is much We've had so many game submissions For the pinball show And it's like Zach could never interpret the rules Because I think they were all In the same email So Matt made this simple Alright So let's see Beatles Rock Band Is older than Beatles Pinball Machine Rock Band was 2009 The pin was 2018 You and I both got that right Yeah that one That one Not a surprise No it was not So let me put an hash mark Okay Batman the Dark Knight Was The pin was older by one year. It's 2008 versus Arkham Asylum, which is 2009. So we both got that one right. Nice.
    40:20
    Let's see. Guitar Hero Metallica is 2009. It is older than Metallica the pin, which is 2013. So you get a point there and I do not.
    40:29
    The ACDC Live Rock Band Track Pack was from 2008 and the pin is 2012. So we both got that one wrong.
    40:37
    Oh man, was Rock Band Live that long ago? I thought it was You did get Star Trek Online correct. That was 2010 and the pin was 2013. So I was. Yeah, I started. I remember that because I was I played Star Trek Online pretty much immediately after it. You said it so confidently. It was really stupid of me, especially since I picked second. But I still I still did. All right. Lego the Hobbit was 2014 and the pin was 2016. So we both got that one right and marked yet. All right. So next Let's see Lego's Pirate of the Caribbean was 2011 And the pinball machine from Stern was 2006 So we both got that one right Nice I thought it felt like I thought the Lego game was a lot later The Star Wars Pinball machine was 2017 and Fallen Order was 2019 Yep I was pretty sure about that So we both got that one right Knights of the Old Republic was 2003 but episode one was 1999, so we both got that right. I knew episode one was 99. I didn't know when Knights was, but I thought it was in the 2000s.
    41:47
    Let's see. NBA Jam Arcade Cabinet was 1993, and Fast Break was 97, so I got that one right, and you did not.
    41:58
    Jurassic World Evolution was 2018, and the Pinball Machine was 2019, so we both got that one right. Lord of the Rings Online was 2007 but the pin was 2003 so we both got that one right Fester's Quest was 89 and the pin was 92 so you got that one right and I did not Revolution X was 1994 Aerosmith the pin was 2017 so we both got that one right Revolution X Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb was 2003 but the pin was 93. So we both got that one wrong.
    42:39
    Toadles arcade cabinet was 89 and the pin was 91. So you got that one right and I did not. I remember, see, because I remember playing that arcade cabinet like in middle school at the bowling alley. Tron Evolution was 2010 and the pin was 2011. So I got that one right and you did not.
    43:01
    Telltale Definitive Series was 2019. So Walking Dead pinball was 2014, so it was good that you changed your vote. So we both got that one right. Oh, that's what got me when I thought back to the definitive. It's like, well, wait a minute. Definitive is definitive It very definitive Alien Isolation was 2014 and Highway released their pin in 2017 so we both got that one right
    43:29
    Super Mario Bros. 3 was released in North America in 1990. Mushroom World by Gottlieb was 92, so we both got that one right.
    43:40
    X-Men Legends was 2004, the pin was 2012, so we both got that one right. Terminator Resistance was 2019. The Pinball Machine was 1991. So we both got that one right. That one would have felt real bad.
    43:56
    Rise of the Dark Spark Transformers video game was 2014. The pin was 2011. So we both got that one right.
    44:05
    Simpsons Arcade Cabinet was 91. But the pin was 90. So we both got that one wrong. Really? Jiminy. Nightmare on Elm Street by LJN was 1990 The Pinball Machine by Gottlieb was 1994 so you got that one right and I got it wrong Goldknife 007 was 97 for the Nintendo 64 The Pinball was 96 so you got that one wrong and I got that one right Spider-Man for the Atari 2600 came out in 82 and The Pinball Machine by Gottlieb came out in 80 so we both got that one right.
    44:45
    And Junior Pac-Man came out in 83, but Baby Pac-Man Pinball came out in 82, so you got that one wrong and I got that one right, and you beat me by one.
    44:56
    Why did you have to switch the telltale? We could have been tied. We could have been friends. It was the wording. I had to think about the wording.
    45:07
    That was actually really well done and a lot of fun. I like that. Yeah. That was harder than I expected. Oh, he did send – I didn't read the answer to this one. I didn't write it down because it wasn't in the base email. But he said, here's one for bonus. Not that you need it, but I guess we could see what we could tie. I should probably write it down. All right. Which was older, Temco Super Bowl for the Nes or Data East Monday Night Football?
    45:36
    Super Bowl for the Nes. Excuse me, Tecmo Super Bowl. Yeah, Tecmo. That's what you think is older? Yeah So do I But let's see where he put that one in Or did he?
    45:49
    Where's the answer? I don't know the answer Let's look it up Google I choose you Tecmo Super Bowl December 91
    46:06
    Data East Monday Night Football. 89. Okay, we were wrong. But we both picked the same answers anyway. I thought Tetmo was earlier than that, honestly. I did too because it was a NES game, so I just thought, whatever. All right, well, good job, Tony. You won. Woo-hoo, I won something. You won this. You won this video versus pen. I thought I was going to lose by more. I was doing so bad at first.
    46:33
    Okay, well, thank you, Matt, for that game. And, Tony, I think you're now well-prepped to take us into the video game segment. Hold on just one second. That's where we got...
    46:44
    Tecmo Bowl and Tecmo Super Bowl are two different games. Tecmo Bowl was 87. Tecmo Super Bowl was 91. Okay.
    46:57
    We were both thinking of the older game. I didn't know there were two. You know, I don't know if I ever played Tecmo. I've heard of it. I've played Tecmo. Of course you have. You've played everything.
    47:13
    I haven't played everything. Hashtag sad. I just remember specifically playing a lot of techno back in the day. That was the football game that first, the first one I really recall playing.
    47:29
    Well, do you plan to play a lot of Lego Star Wars Skywalker Saga? Not anytime soon. Why not? because they decided that it's not ready yet, and it'll be ready when it's ready.
    47:44
    They didn't go so far as to actually say that. The developer did put out a thing. They were planning for a spring launch for the Skywalker saga, and they put out a note that it's not ready. It will not make the planned spring launch, but they did not give a window for the actual launch. So it is just an indefinite delay at this point. what's going to be interesting is it will include all nine films. And so far there have only been seven Lego Star Wars games made. It's going to include the original. It's going to include all the old Lego Star Wars for the, for the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.
    48:30
    Plus the force awakens Lego Star Wars that was put out, but they never did one for the last two movies. So those will be completely new. Hmm. Well, I'm glad they didn't give a release date. Yeah. I'm getting tired of cyberpunk. Yeah. I'm getting tired of people giving release dates and then pushing back and pushing back and pushing back. I miss the old days when companies were willing to say it'll be done when it's done.
    49:00
    The only problem with some of those companies, those games never actually got done. Or by the time they did get done, they weren't worth playing. Duke Nukem. Forever.
    49:11
    I will say, I'm a big fan of the LEGO games. Not just LEGO Star Wars, but all of the LEGO games have been pretty fun.
    49:20
    I know I played the crud out of the LEGO Marvel Avengers game, and LEGO Jurassic Park was fun. I've played the first the original and prequel trilogy Lego Star Wars games that are a lot of fun the Lego Lord of the Rings game I mean those are good fun games yeah the Lord of the Rings might have been the last one I played it's been a long time for me so in addition to that last episode we talked about Outriders was supposed to be coming out, and it released. Yay! And they had some server issues on day one, just like every new online game has. And they've been having some issues with connectivity, with people sitting in the title screen waiting to connect to the server, or with people who are actively playing losing server connection and being kicked off, even when they're solo and not in open PvP areas, so there's no need for them to be online. But that's the kind of thing you expect with an online-only game like that.
    50:37
    The initial reports from the couple people I've talked to who've actually played it is that it's really enjoyable.
    50:46
    I will be interested to see if that holds. my new meter stick for games like this is is uh avengers so we'll see how it does compared to that if it continues to have uh ongoing players or if it has that rapid drop off that tends to happen um but we'll just have to see in addition to all of that uh again kind of referencing what we talked about on the last episode where we were talking about games being abandoned the game that a lot of these people, these companies that are not abandoning their games they're trying to pull together with and match up to No Man's Sky has put out another update that basically lets you do an amazing race-style expedition where new players are all dropped in the same place, and then they're given a chart that lets them go and hit milestones to complete along the way as they race towards the finish line. Oh, they've really done a ton of support to that game. I'm amazed at the amount of support. And here's the thing is, I haven't put a ton of time in it, but the last time I put a decent amount of time in it was like two or three major updates ago. And that game had actually come along to being fun compared to what it was when it launched. Because it has gone from being the whole meme, joke, terrible launch to something that's at least decently playable. so I don't think it's ever going to pull this kind of numbers or desires or hopes for what it was originally but it's still being supported and it's still being fairly well not still it's now being fairly well looked at and reviewed compared to what it was when it launched yeah everyone that I know of that's gone back and played it or has played it after the significant updates hit have indicated generally positive to highly positive statements. I haven't heard anyone be negative about what it is now. Yeah. So it is, I think, it's just kind of that dream example of what a failed launch could be. Right. Because it's so rare to see someone, I mean, what other examples really are there? The only thing that really jumps to my mind is Square Enix kind of completely redoing Final Fantasy XIV and relaunching it. Right.
    53:46
    And that was a very successful relaunch. It's still out there and pretty popular. Mm-hmm. Yep. For that type of game. Right, because that is an MMO. Right. And what used to be such a large and powerful group of games at this point is basically just Final Fantasy XIV and World of Warcraft. Yeah. Pretty much everybody else has died or gone to the free-to-play style. So with the I just don't think that MMO format Is something that's I think it had it's time I mean there's still some games Out there that have Some Similarities to it Eve Online Which is a game I would totally play If I didn't have you know A family, a life and a job Um Or I know a lot of people are playing ESO now, but as I recall, ESO is free to play at this point.
    55:07
    I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you, though. MMOs had their time. I think most developers have found that there's more profit in free-to-play and doing things to land whales than to have these subscription services where people are very demanding in terms of how many updates you constantly need to put out to justify doing the subscription fee.
    55:31
    Yeah, ESO is a buy-to-play model. so you purchase the game and then there's microtransactions to maintain the game or there's microtransactions within the game so yeah that's like I said I've not played a lot of games and I've just not recently so I will next episode let the players know about this brand new game I'm getting ready to play.
    56:09
    It's cutting edge. It's top of the line. Probably never heard of it before. Age of Empires 2. No, I didn't download it from LimeWire.
    56:23
    Game pass hype. Game poos, which I thought I'd turned off, but apparently I didn't when I noticed it on my credit card bill. So, I was like, Oh, well, I'll go ahead and use it since it's active.
    56:37
    That'll be something for us to cover next time. That'll be something for us to cover, what the actual definitive edition of that game looks like. Because that was a game, I don't know about you, I know I put stupid amounts of hours into that game. I did a lot of Age of Empires, just back in my RTS days. Yeah. That was one of those RTSs that I played a lot. That and Total Annihilation. Mm-hmm.
    57:10
    So. Well, if people... Blah, blah. Oh, go ahead. You go. Oh, okay. I was just going to say, if people would like to reach out to us before the next episode, they can email us at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and contact us there. And I was going to say that we are available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as Eclectic underscore Gamers. And I was going to say we will be back in two weeks. And I was going to say two weeks. And I was going to say goodbye, everybody. And I was going to say see ya.