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4.27 Saturday Morning Spectacular Audio

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Apr 28, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Kaneda critiques pinball industry pricing, margins, and content creator ethics; teases John Wick details and JJP insider info.

Summary

Kaneda delivers a provocative Saturday Morning Spectacular episode critical of pinball industry practices, manufacturer pricing margins, and content creator accountability. He discusses upcoming Stern's John Wick game, Jersey Jack Pinball >50% margins, pricing dynamics across manufacturers, distributor markup practices, and promises revelations about Lloyd's departure from JJP and other behind-the-scenes industry drama pending star donations.

Key Claims

  • John Wick from Stern is coming out in May 2024, 2-3 weeks away, with a teaser possibly next week

    medium confidence · Kaneda stating he has insider information from Tim Sexton, 100% confident in timeline

  • John Wick's designer is a new, previously unannounced Stern employee being elevated to designer for first time; male, not female, not Mike Vinicore or Seth Davis

    medium confidence · Kaneda claims insider knowledge but acknowledges sources won't reveal name to protect 'coming out party'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball's margins on machines are over 50%, with Elton John CE/Platinum COGS around $5,000

    low confidence · Kaneda cites 'best source' but qualifies as rumor; calculates ~$7,000 margin on Platinum, ~$10,000 on CE

  • Stern Pro machines have ~50% margins with COGS around $3,000-$3,500, while LE margins subsidize lower Pro/Premium margins

    low confidence · Kaneda's estimation based on pricing analysis; speculative framework

  • Elton John CE uses leftover screens from Toy Story 4 that were miscalculated in demand planning

    low confidence · Kaneda's claim without attribution; plausible but unverified

  • Distributors add $2,000+ markup on games without corresponding warranty/service value compared to retail purchase

    medium confidence · Kaneda's structural critique of distributor model; analogy to auto dealership practices

  • John Wick will struggle commercially due to market saturation and high pricing ($10,000-$13,000 LE tier)

    medium confidence · Kaneda's prediction based on consumer fatigue with consecutive Stern LE releases

  • Music-themed pins like ABBA/Elton John perform better on location than code-heavy narrative machines like Jaws

    medium confidence · Kaneda's operational analysis; debate with 'John' on location appeal

  • Lloyd no longer works at JJP tech support due to reasons Kaneda claims to know but will only reveal at 10,000 stars

Notable Quotes

  • “When you see my face, I hope it gives you hell, people.”

    Kaneda @ 0:00-0:10 — Opening mantra establishing confrontational, truth-telling tone for episode

  • “This hobby has turned into a bunch of Irish mums...brushing everything under the rug.”

    Kaneda @ 2:30-3:00 — Criticism of content creators avoiding controversy; sets up promised candor

  • “You don't put pinball machines in front of windows...Your wives are disgusted with you.”

    Kaneda @ 4:00-5:30 — Humorous tangent on home display aesthetics; reflects Kaneda's personality and audience engagement style

  • “Three Stern LEs with toppers...are setting people back $50,000 or more.”

    Kaneda @ 18:00-18:30 — Quantifies cumulative pricing pain point for collectors; key economic concern

  • “The margins on a Jersey Jack machine are more than 50%...COGS on an Elton John is around five grand.”

    Kaneda @ 22:45-23:45 — Central claim about JJP profitability; challenges manufacturer justification for pricing

  • “Everybody plays a new game once. It's about how many play it more than once.”

    John (on-air guest) @ 15:30-16:00 — Location operator perspective on game appeal; contrasts with collector/code-depth priorities

  • “95% of the content creators are on the side of the companies and the manufacturers. I don't see many people being advocates for us getting more for the money.”

    Kaneda @ 28:00-29:00 — Meta-critique of pinball media ecosystem; positions Kaneda as contrarian voice

  • “I would absolutely love what they're doing [if I was a Stern shareholder].”

    Kaneda @ 25:30-25:45 — Acknowledges investor perspective vs. consumer perspective; frames pricing debate

  • “When you flip the hood open on an Elton John...it's got a third of what a game like Pirates has in it and then you charge me almost twice as much money.”

Entities

KanedapersonTim SextonpersonSeth DavispersonLloydpersonMike VinicorepersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: John Wick designer reveal imminent; new Stern employee being elevated to first designer role

    medium · Kaneda: 'someone who has never designed a game from Stern Pinball before, but it is someone who works at Stern. They are elevating someone within Stern Pinball to be a new designer.'

  • ?

    product_launch: John Wick launching in May 2024; teaser likely next week; game coming out in 2-3 weeks from episode date

    medium · Kaneda: 'The game is coming out in May, 100%. It is going to come out in the next two to three weeks. We might see a teaser next week.'

  • $

    market_signal: Market saturation at $10,000-$13,000 LE price point; consumer fatigue from consecutive Stern releases

    medium · Kaneda: 'I still think John Wick is going to struggle. I don't think Stern's pricing model works very well...three Stern LEs...are setting people back $50,000 or more'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Manufacturers use LE tier margins to subsidize lower Pro/Premium tier margins; pricing strategy favors collectors over operators

    medium · Kaneda: 'the margin on the pro is obviously the smallest margin they have, because I think they're OK with that because of the insane margin they're making on the LE's'

  • ?

    industry_signal: 95% of pinball content creators defend manufacturer pricing and practices rather than advocate for consumers

    medium · Kaneda: '95% of the content creators are on the side of the companies and the manufacturers. I don't see many people being advocates for us getting more for the money.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.256

0:00
It's over. When you see my face, I hope it gives you hell, people. We're talking Saturday morning. We're talking spectacular.
0:10
We're talking we're going to drop some truth bombs on this episode. It's going to make you all, even Billy B, throw some stars into the mix, people. It's not going to be pretty today. I just got back from the gym. We're a couple of days away from a new member of the Canada family. the baby is coming any minute now, any second now, and we're going to drop it like it's hot. We're going to get, look, we're going to get to a hundred people easily because once we start talking the way we're going to talk on this episode of, it's just going to be like, you got to go tune in now. He's saying stuff. Go get your sneakers ready, Marty. Go get Damien. Somebody wake up Damien. It's not going to be pretty. Somebody go tell Nitro when flipping out, He's going to start talking about distros. He's going to start talking about everything. We're going to drop it on this Saturday Morning Spectacular. A level of candidness. A level of truth that we just need to get out in the open because I feel like this hobby has turned into a bunch of Irish mums. Especially the content creators just brushing everything under the rug. I'm having great conversations with my boy Jason Knapp. You know, you guys, if you knew half of what goes on behind the scenes in this pinball hobby, it's going to be it's going to be eye opening. All right. No more excuses. No more BS. No more spin. No more shilling. No more guessing game. It's so clear now where we're at. All right. We're at a point now of inflection in this hobby where, you know, the clowns and the lies and the deception and the manipulation, we can see through it now. it's so obviously like you can't you can't miss it. You can't miss what's going on in this hobby. And look, we're going to talk about what's going on with all the manufacturers. But then we're going to just like get into the heart of what I really want to talk about, one of which and I'm just warning you right now, people, one of which is going to be pinball machines in front of windows. We're going to talk about it because some of you don't seem to understand that you don't put pinball machines in front of windows. I don't care if it's a basement window. I don't care. We're going to talk about it later. I'm not even going to get into it now. It's going to get me too upset. It's going to get me too upset. Your wives are disgusted with you. If you think your wives think that looks good, they know it doesn't look good. They have to put up with your pinball collection because you force them to. Women don't put pinball machines in front of windows because they have style. They have taste. They have feng shui. They know what a home should look like. It doesn't matter if you have a UV protector. And I'm not talking about next to a window. We're going to talk about it later. I'm not going to talk about it right now. I'm not going to talk about it right now. Okay. Big window here. See that? No pinball machine in front of it. No pinball machine in front of it, people. All right. If I had a pinball machine, it goes against that wall and that wall real easy chicos real easy don't be stupid hey a room is not how many pins can we possibly fit in it see you got me going already you got me going we're only like two three minutes in we're gonna let more people join we're gonna let more people get into the house go tell your tpn friends go tell don to stop making videos about installing mods. We don't care. Get Don over here. All right. Come on, Don. It's time to bury the hatchet. Nobody cares anymore. This silly feud. Come on, brother. You're making $360 a month. I want to congratulate you on the Patreon. It's good. It's good. We're only making over 10 times that. But look, what do I know? What do I know? You can put on the fake glasses, but when you put on the real glasses, then you're making 10 times more. And look, it's just a side hustle. It's just Anyone else? Four hours a week? Four hours a week for 50 grand? That's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad for time equals value equals money. But look, look, we're going to collect some stars. We got a goal of 10,000 stars. Let's show everybody. Let's show them how we can rally around Canada dropping truth bombs. And here's the thing. Here's the thing. If we get to a certain amount of stars, the more we get to, the more I'll give you. That's just the way it works. And we started this whole thing. We started it all. Remember when we started Patreon, Genghis? Remember when I said, I'm going to go behind the paywall? Remember when everyone made fun of me for two years? How dare you do that? He's a loser. He's not into pinball. He doesn't know what he's talking about. He will never do that. I mean, these people said, we'll never go behind the paywall.

low confidence · Kaneda teases knowledge of Lloyd's departure; gatekeeping reveal behind donation threshold

  • Seth Davis is responsible for modern pinball pricing escalation and design mediocrity ('shreds your money')

    low confidence · Kaneda's opinion; ad hominem critique without specific game analysis

    • Kaneda @ 31:45-32:15 — Specific value-for-money comparison; underpins complaints about content-to-price ratio

  • “You held back your inventory and you played the market...that's the issue I have.”

    Kaneda @ 42:00-42:30 — Accuses distributor of market manipulation; critiques opacity of secondary market dynamics

    • John Wick
    game
    Elton Johngame
    Jawsgame
    ABBAgame
    James Bondgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Toy Story 4game
    Godzillagame
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Spike Threeproduct
    Canadian Pinball Podcastmedia
    Saturday Morning Spectacularmedia
    Pinsidemedia
    Thunderbirdsgame
    Barbecue Challengegame
    Fishtalesgame
  • ?

    operational_signal: Location operators and casual players prefer music-themed pins (ABBA, Elton John) over code-heavy narrative machines (Jaws, John Wick) due to reduced complexity and auditory cues

    medium · Kaneda: 'It's way more fun to play Elton John on location than Jaws. Because with Elton John, I don't need to be paying attention...When you play Jaws on location, you can't really hear it'

  • ?

    community_signal: Kaneda using star/donation threshold to gate release of alleged Lloyd-JJP departure details; monetizing insider industry gossip

    high · Kaneda: 'I'm going to tell you why...but maybe only if we get to 10,000 stars...when you hear the truth of it it's actually really interesting'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community speculating Mike Vinicore/MKV designing John Wick; Kaneda explicitly denies claim

    low · Kaneda: 'It is not Mike Vinicore. And there's no such person as Mike Vinicore...1,000% here to tell you it is not Mike V or MKV...I guarantee you it is not him'

  • ?

    product_concern: Elton John criticized for having one-third the playfield content of Pirates while costing nearly double; content-to-price ratio declining across modern games

    medium · Kaneda: 'When you flip the hood open on an Elton John...it's got a third of what a game like Pirates has in it and then you charge me almost twice as much money'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Elton John CE uses leftover screens from Toy Story 4 due to demand miscalculation; JJP produced 2000+ screens for toppers from Toy Story inventory

    low · Kaneda: 'That topper...is using leftover screens that didn't get put into Toy Story 4...they had all those parts left over. Because think about it...that's 2000 screens they need to make those toppers'

  • ?

    business_signal: Distributors restricted from discounting below MSRP but free to markup above; model prevents price discovery and market transparency; $2,000+ margin per machine questioned vs. warranty/service value

    medium · Kaneda: 'why do they make $2,000 on that transaction?...they're not allowed to publicly bargain with the customer...they can't lower the price...every conversation has to be private'

    • 5:06
    Everybody now, everybody. Oh yeah, here's half my show. The other half you have to go pay to listen to. I mean, think about how annoying that is. Who thought that was good marketing? It's not working. It's not working. How can you have 6,000 listeners, 6,000 listeners, and only 90 sign up? That's a terrible conversion ratio. Terrible. It's terrible.
    5:33
    Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. Take it all behind. Take it all behind. You know what it is? is people don't want to lose their influence because it's all just a sales channel, right? It's all just advertising. Everyone throwing ads for everybody. You know where there's no ads? Canadian Spinball Podcast. I'm not advertising a distributor. I'm not advertising like some lighting system. I'm not advertising, you know, games I sell and then ragging on companies I don't sell, right? You see that? You notice that? You know, you notice that? Like, did anyone get their paywall polo? Nobody. Nobody got their paywall polo. Nobody went on the show as a guest because they spent $100 a month. So you can create all these tiers. We're going to do this. We're going to do this. And then you never deliver on it. That's what happens. Because this hobby allows people to say stuff and then not follow through. When Canada's Pinball Podcast says, I'm going to give you shows every single week, do I deliver? When I say I'm going to go live every Saturday morning. Do I deliver? Hell yeah. And here we are. 61 people. It's not much, like pretty much nothing. 1,500 people will watch us in the end, but we're going to have a juicy one today, people. So strap in, John. Strap in, Jengis. Strap in, Mark Henry. We're going to start by going around the horn a little bit. I need to get warmed up. I'm already warmed up. All right. I need to get warmed up and then we're going to get into it. We're going to get into how I feel about Haggis Pinball right now and this whole non-refundable deposit scenario. And I am going to say stuff on this live that every single pinball content creator should be saying. I'm going to say stuff on this live that every member of this community should be saying. And I'm tired. I'm tired, ladies and gentlemen, of hearing people tell their stories of how they're getting ripped off in real time. And this community doesn't have their back. And I'm tired of listening to smug ass Marty do a podcast in which he doesn't even address the issues with his own company. and I'm tired of it. Guys, it's over on this episode. This is the place where I don't care. Like you can't hide. You can't run. We're going to hit you head on with what we're all feeling. And we are going to hear it. Marty, Damien, y'all, y'all better like y'all better get some popcorn ready because you're not going to be able to hide behind the corner, hide behind the curtain. and we can see your shoes popping out with your no words BS because you're about to hear a lot of words that you should be hearing every day until you come out from behind your cowardly hiding act. You're like, it's just, I'm not going to go yet. We're going to wait. We're only like seven, eight minutes in. It's too early, but you better ring those alarm bells in Australia because this stuff is about to pop. We're going to talk about John Wick. We're going to talk about Jersey Jack. I got information that you don't know. I got information on what the margins are on a Jersey Jack machine.
    9:12
    Do you think they want you to know this? Do you think they want you to know it? Like, what is the margin on a game?
    9:21
    And when you start to understand, see, watch, we're going to climb up to 100 as Canada starts to drop this fire, because right now the phone hooks are ringing off and TPN, they're like, he's going. He said he wasn't gonna do this, but he's going. You know why I'm going now? Baby number two is coming any day now. And you might not see me as much, but you're gonna hear from me as much. But you might not see me as much, but I'm still gonna do my weekly podcasts and I'm still gonna do my best to get you guys this show every Saturday morning. But we're reaching a point now in the pinball hobby where we're just going to have to put the truth on the table. Because if you think you're being ripped off by these modern pin prices, guess what? You are.
    10:04
    But now you're going to have a little bit more information. And if you think Jersey Jack's margins are good, guess whose margins are even better? Can you take a guess? It starts with an S. It ends with an N. And all of a sudden, this stuff matters. When you start to realize the margins on these machines, and the prices of these machines, it makes you think twice. What am I spending this much for? Where's this money going? Is it going to R&D? Is it going to innovation? Or are we absolutely getting destroyed by the modern pinball pricing? You're all believing a lie.
    10:43
    You've believed this lie that somehow throughout COVID, everything became so expensive. Yeah, it did. Everything became more expensive, but they've made efficiencies in making these games.
    10:56
    And if you don't think so, all you got to do is lift up a Lord of the Rings and look underneath it and lift up a Jaws and look underneath it. And, you know, I know that everybody would love you to believe that like, oh, well, you know, shots are the new toys. And it's just if it's fun, who cares if it's fun? Who cares? I'll pay anything if it's fun. It doesn't matter. That's what we want everyone to focus on. Focus on the fun. Don't make them think about the fact that a topper that is flat plastic is $2,000, right? Sturm makes those toppers in-house. Okay, cool. You think they're making those molds in-house? No, those molds are not made in-house at Sturm, Campbell. You can make those molds for nothing. They are simply screwing together plastic, and they charge you $2,000. And by the time I get going today, people, we're going to be at 100 people. They're all getting, they all have to wake up now. He's going. It's one of those Saturday mornings where Chris is not going to hold back the controversial Chris Colores from New York City. That's my favorite part is when they say, hey, we're not going to call them Canada. We're going to call him Chris Colores. Yeah, I'm not hiding who I am. Lift me up on LinkedIn, boys. You can see all my work. You can come check it out. We're confident. We're not worried about any of it. And I hope when you see my face, it gives you hell. All right. It gives you hell. Had a great work week, working on Jameson, working on, what else are we doing right now? We're doing political ideas. We're doing a lot of fun stuff. Now I'm about to stop working because I'm about to go on paternity leave, but that's not going to stop me from checking in on what's going on in pinball. All right. The other thing I'm going to tell you guys, I'm going to tell you this that I don't know it would be kind of funny to hold this back unless we get a certain amount of stars because this it's it's you'll you'll understand why when we get to the topic but I know now the mystery have you ever wondered what's the mystery behind Lloyd no longer working at Jersey Jack Pinball, right? I was so like, this story's been like permeating for like years. Why doesn't Lloyd have a job anymore with JJP as tech support? He's a great guy. He does all this stuff. And it was always like, well, why would they cut him loose? If the community loves him and he does all this great work, well, Kaneda knows why. and I'm going to tell you why on this episode of Kaneda's Saturday Morning Spectacular but maybe only if we get to 10,000 stars and you'll understand why I want to throw money into the mix to talk about this story when we get there so look I'm just saying when you hear the truth of it it's actually really interesting because it's like I feel like Lloyd's been parading around Pinside like he's the victim. And I think when you hear this story, you're going to realize Lloyd's not the victim on this one, right? And it's not like a terrible thing, but I'm just, I'm going to tell you, I don't really need to know, Joseph. It doesn't matter if you need to know, you're going to know. You know why? Because this story has been all throughout Pinside for a couple of years. And the truth is just going to set everybody free. It'll set Lloyd free. It'll set me free. It'll set you free. It'll set Pinside free. It's not slander. It's nothing. It's just like, it just is what it is. It just is what it is. And I don't know, is it wrong to tell the truth? And look, this is not going to get anybody hurt.
    14:43
    These podcasters put half their show behind the paywall. Yeah, I love it. I love it, Ari. Look, you know, the thing is with the paywalls, you can't go half behind. You know, you can't be half pregnant. Like you either got to go all in on it or it doesn't work because then you're just annoying everybody.
    15:02
    Thank you for the stars, Scott. All right. Let's start out. Let's start out with John Wick. OK, let's start with like around the horn. So we got John Wick. It's coming next from Stern. Tim Sexton is 100 percent on code. It's 100 percent going to be John Wick. It is going to come out in the next two to three weeks. We might see a teaser next week. The game is coming out in May, 100%. The designer of this game is someone who has never designed a game from Stern Pinball before, but it is someone who works at Stern. They are elevating someone within Stern Pinball to be a new designer. So that is going to be interesting and fun to see what this person is capable of. It is a male. It is not a female. And so I know for a fact, I know people who know exactly who it is. They won't tell me the name because they don't want to spoil this person's like coming out party, if you will. Like this is like their moment to sort of reveal themselves as a designer. It's not going to be Seth Davis. If this was Seth Davis, the game would just be a machine that shreds your money because that's all he's good for. So Seth Davis has really destroyed pinball pricing. We're going to talk a little bit about that when we get to the margins, but it just is what it is.
    16:23
    It's going to be interesting. So that's coming out in a few weeks. So when that happens, we're going to get a whole other level, a whole other level of conversation and debate about whether or not this game is worth it. This is that. John Wick is next. Okay. So it is not Mike Vinicore. And there's no such person as Mike Vindicore.
    16:45
    And it's Vinicore, K-O-U-R. You know, it's Mike Vindicore is not designing this game. 1,000% here to tell you it is not Mike V or MKV, whatever people keep putting up as his initials. He is not designing this game. I guarantee you it is not him. Okay? So stop that rumor right now. Go to Pinside. Be like Kaneda told us for free on his Saturday morning spectacular. I don't know why anyone listens to this guy. He just gives us all the information before everybody else.
    17:22
    I still think John Wick is going to struggle. I don't think Stern's pricing model works very well. I think people are just getting into Jaws. People are finally enjoying James Bond on Final Code. It's just too much. You can't ask these people to keep dropping $13,000 and $10,000 game after game after game. You know, you just can't do it, people. Like three games, three Stern LEs with toppers, and maybe some of you are paying tax, three Stern LEs now are setting people back $50,000 or more. Now, you got to really understand what that number is. $50,000 or more you're going to spend on three Stern LEs. Now, here's the problem with that. When you go to sell any of those, if you sell all three, you're losing at least $10,000, right? If you option these things out, if you put toppers on it, accessories on it, it's just going to be bad, you know? John, let me tell you something. Any new pin is good for location. John, ABBA would do well at Jack Bar. ABBA would get more people to play it than Fishtails, John. You know this. Like, I love you, John. But like operators, like it would do well on location. It would like, come on, man. Like, yeah, like, yeah, duh, duh. And no, John Wick would not do as well as ABBA. It wouldn't. There is no way John Wick would do better than ABBA on location. People on location, it's more fun to play a music pin than a code-based, like theme, narrative-driven game. It is no fun. I mean this when I say it. Like on location, trying to play these mode based narrative pinball machines with deep rule sets. It's like it's not that much fun. Like, I got to be honest, like it's way more fun to play Elton John on location than Jaws. Because with Elton John, I don't need to be paying attention to what's going on in the storyline. I can just enjoy the lights and the scoring and the shots. But like when you play Jaws on location, you can't really hear it. You can't hear the call out. You're not getting into the modes like it doesn't work as well. It doesn't work as well.
    19:34
    Everybody plays a new game once. It's about how many play it more than once. John Ehrlich, mark the date, people.
    19:44
    Like, make that quote a t-shirt. Everybody plays a new game once. I'm going to tell you this right now, John. Everybody ain't playing Barbecue Challenge once. Everybody ain't playing Thunderbirds once. All right? Everybody. everybody you know I could just see John Ehrlich back there and Jack Vaughn right now be like get me everybody to play this pin what do you mean everybody everybody everybody everybody's gonna play everybody in Williamsburg is playing that new pit everybody we're so dramatic everybody my gosh everybody okay everybody's playing it all right all right so you want to know the margins on jjp shall we just should we just say it should we just say it so i heard again like rumor might be right might be wrong but this is coming from my best source and all the pinball that the margins, and this makes sense, but the margins on a Jersey Jack machine are more than 50%, okay? Which makes kind of sense when you think about it. So they've got a $15,000 CE and a $12,000 platinum. Now, that means that the bomb on Elton John is probably somewhere in the vicinity of or less I would say the bomb on an Elton John is around five grand Okay So it costs them probably around $5,000 to make an Elton John. Now that's their cost. Now, of course, they want to make a good margin, but over 50% margin on an item like this is very high people. It is very high. So they're making roughly seven. I would say they're making about seven thousand dollars for a platinum. And the CE is really where it just gets crazy. The margin, because you and I both know that there is not three thousand dollars in difference between a platinum and a CE. Right. That topper. You got to remember that topper is using leftover screens that didn't get put into Toy Story 4. You guys know this, right? The reason why there are those two screens that are just playing arbitrary things on Elton John, there are leftover parts from Toy Story 4. It goes to show you how they miscalculated the demand of Toy Story that they had all those parts left over. Because think about it. Think about it like think about like that's I mean, if there's a thousand CEs and there's two screens per CE, that's 2000 screens they need to make those toppers.
    22:49
    No, Bill, the bill, the margins don't depend on how well they sell. That doesn't make any sense, Bill. Bill, you're a businessman. Bill, the margin is how much does it cost them to make it and how much do they sell it for? That's the margin. What does sales volume have to do with margins at all? Bill, it doesn't have anything to do with margins.
    23:11
    No, why would margins have to do with how many they sell? Explain this to me. I don't get it. If it costs them $5,000 to make every one, who cares if they sell $100 or $1,000? They're still making $7,000 margin on a platinum and $10,000 margin on a CE. Why would the volume change that? Would it just make the bomb a little cheaper?
    23:37
    Because they're ordering more parts? I'm confused. We're talking margins here, Bill. Margins, Bill. Stick with it. Which is crazy because if Jersey Jack's margins are that, what do you think the bomb is wait what did John just say if they sell more they can order larger volume at bigger discounts yeah I get that so here's the thing too it's like I want to talk about something after this and then we're going to get to Haggis and then we're going to talk about pinballs in front of windows and then I'll tell you why Lloyd and JJP are not working together. The thing about this is we all know we all you have to base the beginning bomb on a game for Stern on like the margin they're going to make on a Stern pro. So let's start there. How much money do you think Stern makes margin-wise on a Stern Pro? I want to hear from you guys. What do you think it costs Stern to make every single Pro machine? No one else even has these conversations. It's like the entire pinball content space doesn't even want to talk about value. It's just, let's keep pulling the wool over everyone's eyes by talking about fun.
    25:11
    it's not 200%. I mean, I think you're looking, I think it's probably around the 50% mark. So I think a Stern Pro is probably costing Stern around $3,000 to make, maybe $3,500.
    25:36
    I think they're okay having, And I think the margin on the pro is obviously the smallest margin they have, because I think they're OK with that because of the insane margin they're making on the L.E.'s. I think the L.E. margin pays for all of the pro and premium games to be built. I think that's how much money they're making on on a thousand L.E. sales is enough money to build every single pro and premium and still make money. and I think that's why you're, I think that is why, you know, you're not getting more in the game.
    26:18
    Now, do you guys even, does this even bother any of you? I'm just curious, like, I mean, like, it doesn't bother me, because I'm not buying this stuff, like, it doesn't really bother me, I just would like to know, you know, if I buy a $40,000 solid gold Rolex, that one of the reasons why it's $40,000 is just the value of the gold and also the value the watch will retain because of the demand in the market. And I'm just wondering, how long do you think the pinball hobby can continue to sort of usher out these games where clearly the bomb is very low? Clearly, they found they're going to find even more efficiencies with spike three and yet they're charging this much money now when you guys say you're you're not really bothered by it is that because the pricing doesn't bother you that you actually can easily buy 10 to 13 000 machines every three to four months and not even think about that in your i'm just curious like because for some of you that is the case yeah I mean the Rolex margins are crazy a lot easier to ship them too and trade them am I the only one that wants pinball companies to make money and continue operating so John why do you defend the 30 to 40 percent price increase though John let me ask you a question were they not making money and being able to operate beautifully when an LE was 10.5 and a premium was like 7,900. John, so they weren't making a ton of money then. They were.
    28:13
    Because, John, there's a threshold where it's not about like I want them to continue to operate versus jumping so far forward with pricing. It's no longer about being able to operate. It's about stuffing so much money in the pockets of just the investors, Seth Davis and Gary, and the money is not going into the machines or innovation.
    28:38
    You know, we all act like we're investors in Stern, like we're shareholders. If I was a shareholder of Stern Pinball, I would absolutely love what they're doing. If I was an investor in Stern Pinball, I would absolutely love what they're doing. But John, the other thing is this, and this is why operators don't get it. John, you're not buying a $13,000 James Bond LE and then like four months later, it's 10 grand. You're making money on your games every day you operate it. If you were a home collector, John, and you bought three Stern LEs in a row and you lost $10,000 in one year on value, you would think about this differently. You would. You wouldn't be like, oh, man, I just I don't mind losing all that money because I just want to make sure these companies are gainfully employed and continue to operate as I continue to lose 30 percent of my value.
    29:30
    And, John, if all they wanted to do was keep pinball alive and well and keep the company profitable, they would just make one version of the game.
    29:39
    They would just make one version of the game. Everyone can have it. There'll be no this bickering and back and forth and fleecing people for stickers and, you know, cheap upgrades to make something a collector's edition or an LE. But it is what it is. Look, I I I think you guys know where I stand on this. I don't mind if the prices get this high as long as the bomb continues to increase. But when you flip the hood open on an Elton John and as fun as the game is to shoot, it's got a third of what a game like Pirates has in it. and then you charge me almost twice as much money, it doesn't really work. It doesn't really work. But again, everyone is always going to come out and make excuses on behalf of the companies. And that is the state of pinball. It is the state of pinball. 95% of people will defend the companies at all costs. 95% of the content creators are on the side of the companies and the manufacturers. I don't think there's many people that are on the side of the consumer and the customer. I don't see many people being advocates for us getting more for the money. Here's another, here's a topic I want to talk about that makes no sense to me because I want to talk about margins and where the money's going and, and the big difference. Cause I, I, I've been, I've been trying to figure out a way to talk about why does it, why does a distributor, why does a distributor who, who gets a game from Stern and then mails a game to you, why do they make $2,000 on that transaction?
    31:15
    I don't think we should lose distributors. In fact, I think they should be more like car dealerships, but they're not allowed to operate like car dealerships because a car dealership I can walk into and they can give me the best price possible and they can bargain with a customer and they know what their cost is. They're not going to sell below their cost, but they're allowed to bargain with the customer to get a sale between the MSRP and the dealer cost. But no pinball distributor on the planet is allowed to publicly bargain with the customer to find the right price. And here's what's happening now. Whereas a car dealership can actually adjust the price of last year's models to get them off the lot, a pinball distributor is not allowed to do that. So I have someone who I know is sitting on a like a hundred Guns N' Roses LEs and they're not allowed to lower the price. now every conversation has to be private every conversation has to be secret it's money on the table it's backdoor deals but that's the issue i have is like why should we all be paying two thousand dollars over what we would what we would be what we could get the game for if we just bought it directly right there's no warranties on these games there's nothing come on like this whole world of like the reason why you go to a car dealership. What's the number one reason you go to a car dealership? Think about it. You go to a car dealership to get the best price on the car, and then you go to a car dealership to bring the car back for things like oil changes and tire rotations and service and warranty on the entire car in case anything goes wrong. Okay. All right. Now, look, distributors, the good ones, they have your back. And if something goes wrong with the game, they're going to help you, you know, find the new node board or fix the issue. But for the most part, 90 percent of those games that a distro sells are not are not requiring maintenance, part swaps like any work whatsoever. and you guys see it like and especially these le's that they're making the most money on because the guys don't even play them you know people turn on these le's and ce's and then like six years later i got i got 67 plays so it's just money for nothing and the checks are free and it's like the weirdest like do you have to go to a distributor to buy an xbox do you have to go to a distributor to buy a PlayStation? Do you have to go like, I don't get it. And I wish that dealers and distros have the ability to set the market price, which means I also wish like it's got to go both ways because then they can market it just the game, which we know they've done. If a game is really popular and there's not a lot of demand, they might list it over MSRP, Right. It's called a dealer adjusted markup that happens in the auto world. It happens in the watch world, but they're not allowed to discount. And we've seen distros, you know, pull the fast ones where, oh, a year later, I found a I found a Godzilla L.E. Just just where, where had you didn't have one and now you got one. And then they sold it for nineteen thousand dollars. You guys know who I'm talking about. And they sold it like in this like buried version of their website, like in their vault. Like it wasn't even on their main page. Like, oh, yeah, like we got this in a trade. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You held back your inventory and you played the market.
    35:31
    Which is fine. I think they should be allowed to do that without having to hide it again. this is not me slamming that distro behavior. It's me slamming a system that is clearly kind of outdated and broken. It's not like they, these manufacturers have too much power over the distros. Like my distro friends should be allowed, because here's why, they should be allowed to sell games at market prices because the other thing that's true is this. They shouldn't be locked in, locked into a price. They'd have more bargaining power if they weren't so locked into these bulk orders and purchases. And I'll tell you, let me explain what I mean by that.
    36:23
    So imagine you are like Ultraman comes out. Right. Imagine Ultraman comes out. Right. And Spooky's like, let's just use this as an example. Spooky's like, we want eighty nine ninety five for an Ultraman collector's edition. Right.
    36:42
    They make the game. Six months go by. You know, you want a distro to order instantly like two hundred of them. All right. So let's say a distro orders like two hundred of these and now has to sell this game at nine thousand dollars. why do they have to bulk order because you know that's how this whole system works if you don't get in your order right away you're not going to get your allotment okay then what happens is like the game's been out for three four months and it's not that great and people move away from it and the market value on them starts to tank then all of a sudden a used ultraman might be worth now like $6,000. And so this distro who has another hundred Ultramans he has to now take is watching them sell for $3,000 less than the game he's about to absorb. And so what do you do? Right? Can he cancel his order with the manufacturer and be like, hey, you made a stinker turd. People don't want it. I'm canceling that order. No, he's locked into all those games. Right. And that's why they've got this non-refundable deposit that everyone is doing, except for Stern now, because it basically gives them immunity from a bad game. It's like they're going to get paid regardless. And it's like this really, really weird business model where everyone's trying to protect themselves, but the only one who doesn't, you know, but in the end,
    38:18
    all right, we're back. We're back. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. In the end, I, like I said no to a phone call. Um, in the end it's this, this, this model that was put in place from like the eighties, like this is like, it's not even like eighties, like a sixties and seventies and eighties business model. In the end, what's going to happen is distributors are going to be sitting on inventory. They're going to get screwed. Manufacturers are not going to be able to rely on distributors being their customers forever like this because distributors are going to run out of money to buy everything new. Okay. And then what's going to happen is as consumers, because remember, we're buying from a middleman always, unless you buy direct, right? You're buying from a middleman, but buying direct doesn't make any sense. Why would you buy direct when you don't get any discount? Do you understand that? Like, explain to me how that makes sense.
    39:23
    So if I buy a game from a distributor and they make $2,000 on an LE or 1,500 bucks, for giving me the game, they're the middleman, right? The game goes from Stern to distributor to me. If we remove that middleman and I buy the game directly from Stern or Jersey Jack, that company still charges me the same price. So then they just make a lot more money. So the part that I don't get is if companies just want to make more money, why don't they just sell everything directly? it's all does it it just seems illogical all of it like I can't make sense of it um I'm never going to make sense of it it seems nonsensical all right but you know what it's a can of worms I'm never going to solve what do you guys want to know first you want me to want me to give you my my two cents on Haggis or we want to talk about Lloyd? That's not a big deal. I mean, it's just, we're just, we're just going to like, we're going to throw the truth about the Lloyd JJP mystery. We're just going to, we're going to stop speculating and we're just going to like throw it on the table.
    40:41
    Um, let's talk about Haggis. You know, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm going to say this and I want to use dates. Okay. I want to use dates. I want to use numbers. I want to use facts. I want to use realities.
    41:04
    In May, which will be a year, a year next month, in May of 2023. It was either May or July, but I want to say it was May. Can someone fact check this for me? Can someone fact check me? Just Google right now and put it in the comments. When did Haggis Pinball announce Centaur Revisited?
    41:30
    I believe it was May of 2023, but I just want to make sure that's right. So can someone please, before I get going, because I want to start this Haggis story there.
    41:44
    and this is not going to be pretty if you have money in on haggis this is not going to be pretty if you're a distributor of haggis product but this is going to be what needs to be said and i'm going to say it as eloquently as possible i'm going to try to articulate my feelings on this in a somewhat professional manner but i will it was july i thought so ben okay thank you i thought it was a little bit past. I think May was the original announcement of Fathom. I'm just getting my dates. I want to get this right. Okay, so July. Let's just count for a minute.
    42:25
    Months, because I think timing is really important here. July 5th. Thank you, Michael. July, August September October November December right Six months December January February March April
    42:49
    10 months ago, right? And we're almost at May. We're almost at 11 months since this whole thing happened. No, I think we're 10 months ago. They announced Centaur Revisited. OK. And when they did that, they had still yet to finish building all of their fathom orders. and many individuals, many individuals had paid in full and they paid in full because Damien and Marty, I'm going to use both of these gentlemen together because you don't get to, you don't get to remove yourself from the accountability of this whole situation, Marty, because I think you, out of all, like Damien is just hiding like a weasel. I'm going to call these people, I think what they are right now. And I know they're going through a tough time, but I get it. But just you got a man up and you have a responsibility to communicate. And and I'll tell you why I think all of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I think Marty should be ashamed of himself. The fact that he goes on his podcast every time he goes on it, he refuses to even bring up anything happening with Haggis. Does Jeff Teolis bring it up? No. And they they're all laughing and giggling throughout the shows. And is it a laughing matter that many hardworking people out there around the world gave these gentlemen tens of thousands of dollars, over hundreds of thousands of dollars have been given to Haggis Pinball off of the false promise that their games would be ready in eight weeks. And that has been the ongoing storyline and the lie that Damien's been telling people. When he tells people they'll have their game in eight weeks, it's a flat out lie. It's a fraudulent statement meant to secure current day capital because he knows he's never going to get those games done in eight weeks, but he needs that money clearly for something probably most likely to finish building games for the people he promised nine months ago they were going to have their games in eight weeks. So it's this never ending cycle of lying, a cycle of contempt because the books don't work, because the business model doesn't work. And then, you know, so he lies about that and he doesn't finish the games. He still owes all these fathoms. And in the middle of owing all these fathoms, what does he do? Does he go to a bank and get more money? Does he raise more capital then? Does he recapitalize while he's focused on one game? What does he do? He pulls the oldest fraudulent manipulating card in the entire book out of his pocket, which is announce a new game to get new capital to then rob Peter to pay Paul with a new business model. There is no reason why when you still have a lot of fathoms to make that you should be announcing a new game, taking money on a new game and promoting a new game at all. So July and when he took money on Centaur, him and Marty and Kerry Hardy and Zach Many, let's just call the names who they are. Everybody was excited, right? Everybody got on board. Everybody promoted this thing. They promoted, sent to revisit it and got people to put more new money chasing bad money. They got more people to invest with non-refundable deposits. And as much as you want to say, like, we didn't make anybody invest. You didn't. And there is an onus on anyone who did invest. And I get that. But look, there's also something called, like, why would you reinvest or why as a company or a content creator? Why would you go and get in bed with a guy that has been misleading people? At that point, Damien had been misleading people for almost two to three years. I think it was like three years, like since the beginning of COVID. He had been misleading people that they would have their games in eight months. And you knew that, Kerry. You knew that, Zach. You knew that everybody affiliated with like this game. This wasn't like a new thing. And you've also been around the block so many times that you've seen this behavior before. you've seen what happens when a company is running out of money and they have to announce Raza because they can't build the magic girls or they've got to announce alien because they don't have money to finish the full throttles like this is like the same story over and over again and for some reason even though we've seen this story unfold a million times there was like this notion that this time it's different. No, it's not different. It's just Damien is just another jovial guy with stars in his eyes who built a company based on transparency. And how far did that get you? How transparent has he been? The guy is hiding.
    47:59
    Okay, he's hiding. So look, I think there is a level of blame. If you went in on a serious ticket holder $5,000 series ticket holder purchase, you really don't have anybody to blame but yourself. What were you thinking? The guy made like 15 kelts and you handed him $6,000. What were you thinking? We then saw day like day after day after day of fathom missed, not by days, not by weeks, by significant months, which is a red flag. OK, and even after all of that, right, lying to his customers that they would have their games in eight weeks. And here's what keeps the lie going. We saw this with highway pinball. You know, the greatest thing is the greatest way to keep the lie going is just trickle a few games out. As long as you trickle a few games out, that is what people will point at and say, hey, look, he's going to get it done. He's going to get it done. Look, there are games going to customers. And yes, there were games going to customers. The problem is, is those games going to customers are so extremely delayed that those customer games were most likely built with new preorder money. And everybody knows that because here's the thing, right? And I could go down the whole road about how all of that shilling of Centaur. And when I started raving, I started waving the red caution flag. When Centaur was revealed, I got two emails and I have them still because you'll never see him deny this. I got two emails saying I was causing emotional harm to the distributor of Haggis Pinball.
    50:02
    Because and what I was saying was not true. OK, so I got a lawyer who read over everything and listened to the podcast. And I responded to said email with, if you will, let me know with timestamps what I said that was incorrect. I will retract it. Not only that, I will make a new show saying what I said was wrong. And now we're in this really weird space now where what I think made people give deposits on Centaur was the promise that their money would be refunded to them if Haggis Pinball went under. That's what the promise was. Now, look, if I were Zach, I wouldn't have made that promise. Why would I make that? I would only make that promise if I held on to the money. See, the mistake that has happened here, and everyone's going to start to like either ignore it or go in different directions. When Melissa was getting back in bed with Barry, not literally, but, you know, with like the big Lebowski. The difference is, is like when Melissa was taking Lebowski deposits right after nobody believed that Dutch would pull it out, she didn't send the money to Barry. She held on to that money in escrow because she knew she knew. Based on past experiences that trust had to be rebuilt between Barry and her and customers and sending the money right away to Dutch would just could tee up another another calamity. and she held that money in escrow and didn't pay Barry until those games were shipping.
    51:59
    So she had the money. So at any point, if you were like, I want my money back, Melissa had your money.
    52:08
    Zach sent all the money over to Damien with the promise, if Damien collapsed, I'll refund you. Real risk there, high risk. I don't see the upside in taking a high-risk play like that. I just don't. I don't see it. You're making money selling Stern. You're making money selling CGC. God, you're making how much money selling toppers, bro? Like how much money are you making when you sell a Foo Fighter topper? Like let's just stop pretending. Like you're making hundreds of dollars selling one Foo Fighter. Just accept it. You're making a lot of money. You're a very successful distro.
    52:44
    You sell Spooky. You don't need it. like nobody needed to get in bed with Haggis. Like it just wasn't worth the risk, right? For a few more tens of thousands of dollars or a hundred thousand dollars, whatever it is. It's just not worth the risk because it all could go goodbye.
    53:01
    And again, like if I were them, I wouldn't have got in bed with Damien. I wouldn't have said, I'll give you your money back. I would have said, look, this is a risk. And we all knew it was a risk. This is the thing that I don't understand how anybody in July of 2023 didn't realize the risks associated with giving more money to Damien and Marty, a company that was hiding out, going months without any external communication, games barely making the games the way out the door. The other part that really is the end of it all is and then fathom prices are are like tanking and centaur isn't back to the future so when you look at dutch it's like the reason why they can charge 13 000 for lebowski's because the game's amazing and like it had demand there's no longer any demand for fathom so anyone even waiting on a fathom think about how these people feel right now your money is you don't even know where your money is. You don't know where your game is. And you can open up Pinside and go get a Fathom Mermaid Edition today for $6,500, $7,000. No risk. The game's much cheaper and there's no demand. And so now I want to ask one simple question. Where is the haggis money? Where are the Centaur deposit dollars that people gave Nitro and Flippin' Out? They're with Damien, but Damien and Marty. So, you know, Tommy and Zach offstage left. Now I want to talk to Damien and Marty. Where is that money? Give the money back. You have clearly shown, like, it's just, And look, if you get investment money, if you recapitalize, if you get the train back on the track, everybody will root for you. I'll clap for your reconciliation. You rejuvenate the company. But until that day, I don't think you should be holding on to all of these people's hard-earned money with no line of sight on to when anything's going to get fixed, when there's going to be recapitalization, like where their money is. Like now there's people suing you who you owe like nine fathoms to. All of this is on the table now. And I don't want to hear like Marty on his podcast. Ignore this. I don't want to, you know, like I don't need to hear like other podcasters. They're controversial. This is not controversial, Chris Colores. This is just the reality of what's happened. I think people got greedy. I think a company bit off more than they could chew. I think consumers were duped by content creators who didn't think this through. And I think there's just a lot of that in pinball. I think there's a lot of like cheerleading and celebrating anything that happens in pinball.
    56:12
    And if anything I say is wrong or incorrect, if anything I say is I will retract, I will clarify, and I will do an entire show dedicated to what I'm saying is incorrect about what's going on over at Haggis Pinball, about where the money's at.
    56:36
    Distros sent the money to Haggis. That has already been confirmed. If the money's not with Haggis, if the money's not with Haggis, why wouldn't Zach just kick it back to the people kick it back or just let them transfer it over to another game you can't transfer it over to another game you have to keep your order so I don't think I really want because I know people think I'm not doing this because of any prior beef with anybody other like my beef like let me let me really make this clear my beef on all of this is with Damien and Marty it's not with Zach many it's not with Kerry Hardy it's not with Tommy at Nitro they believed in Damien and Marty you believed in Damien and Marty if you gave them your money all right that that is who my beef is with and you could say well let's give them time to recapitalize. That's fine. But I think in that time frame, they should give the deposit money back. They should have to recapitalize in a different way. It shouldn't look, you know, you could go look people. I saw Damien and I guess he has like a family business with real estate. They're selling a piece of property in Australia. It's all public information. They're looking to get, I think, something like a million dollars or something for this piece of property.
    58:13
    Sell that property and recapitalize Haggis Pinball with it. But don't take hundreds of thousands of dollars from Zach Manny and Tommy and other consumers as a way to bail you out by announcing game number three, Centaur, before game number two, Fathom, is finished.
    58:36
    No, sell your lotuses, Damien. And I guarantee you this. That Damien has protected himself. I guarantee you that he has protected himself. His personal wealth, his personal holdings, his personal equity will not suffer one bit. If he has to shut down the operation, he will not suffer personally any of his private wealth. It's going to be all of you who lose your money who went in on it. and that's my feelings on Haggis Pinball, and I think it's unfortunate. I think we've seen this story many times, and I think the truth, I don't know what the truth is. I'm not saying, I'm just giving you my point of view on what I've seen unfold, but what I think is really unfortunate is that we're allowing this to happen again, and the reason why this happens time and time again is because there is nobody holding these companies accountable. You know, we don't have real journalism in pinball. We don't have real journalism, even though hundreds of thousands of dollars and even though millions of dollars have been fraudulently evaporated from the pinball hobby. We don't really have anybody who's like watching over what these companies are doing. and I try to get somewhere close to that every once in a while, but the majority of people who cover this hobby, this does not interest them. They would say this is not bringing positivity to pinball. I get it. I didn't want to talk about this stuff. I didn't want there to be a haggis pinball. You know me. I thought their company should have ended it with Kels because it's a terrible game. But here we are. And so when these situations happen, I just don't think anyone else really wants to cover it. I get it's like kicking a hornet's nest. I get it's not fun. I get it's dramatic. I get it's controversial. But I also feel like nobody is speaking for all of those people who are losing their money, who have had their money tied up for months, if not years. who's speaking on their behalf. I don't see Iceman on Pinside grabbing a torch to go make sure we make these buyers whole. I don't. The loudest mouths in pinball on Pinside, they're just making fun of this whole thing. I don't think it's a laughing matter. And as somebody who works hard for my money and you work hard for your money and you have vacations you want to go on and you have mortgage payments, It's who who's standing up for the rights of those consumers.
    61:31
    You know, I just I just think that. The challenge now is. Haggis might never go. Haggis might never go under, but they might never succeed. Like those two things can happen at the same time. This thing could drag on for years and you'll never get a refund. I mean, Dutch Pinball took him like 10 years to turn the corner.
    61:57
    So I think that's going to be the ultimate outcome of this entire thing. I don't think Zach Manny is going to be giving any refunds because I don't think Damien's ever going to throw in the towel. And I think it's going to be another one of these like you'll probably get your fathoms.
    62:13
    Like you'll probably eventually get them like some point. And by the time you get them, much like. Andrew Highway buyers and early Dutch buyers, by the time you get them, you're not even going to want them because the the annoyance of what you went through to get it will never it'll never be satisfying the experience of getting it. you can go get one used for much less money than yours is today, which didn't happen with Big Lebowski, by the way. So that was the only thing, too, is like it's such a double whammy for these fathom people. And there's just too many other pinball machines doing it the right way.
    62:56
    There is a lot of positivity in pinball. There is a lot of positivity in pinball. And there's a lot of companies doing it right. And I think moving forward, if you're a distributor, I mean, just get in bed with the legit companies and none of this happens, right? If you're a customer, just buy from the companies that are clearly executing properly. Like that's it. It's not hard. Don't blindly support people. Don't blindly trust these people. You got to remember like Damien was like an IT nerd with short hair, a geek. He got into pinball. His hair was down to here. He became Lars Ulrich from Metallica all of a sudden. The moment he became in pinball, he was Damien the Rockstar.
    63:42
    And I bet he thought he couldn't fail. But this is failing. This is what failing looks like. Failing isn't always just over in an instant. This is a long fail but it will fail It will fail There not demand for Centaur We all know it And that just the way it goes
    64:04
    All right, before I do the little Lloyd thing, how's the show, by the way? Guys, 110 stars, all this truth, all this candidness,
    64:15
    and that's about, 110 stars is like a buck 75. Really? Do me a favor. If you don't care so much about the stars, but I really want you guys to sign up for Canada's Pinball Podcast. If you aren't and about about a thousand of you are going to watch this who are not club members.
    64:40
    I really think, you know, that five dollars a month is what motivates me to keep doing this because, gang, trust me, like there will come a day where I'll just be like, you know what? it's not worth it because you're making a distributor will make more money than I make in a year just selling toppers alone. And I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I even bothering to entertain and to sort of go down these roads with you? Because again, remember, I'm putting myself on the line a little bit too, because I guarantee you, they're all looking now for like legal angles to come at me. They're all looking for legal angles to come at me. but they all know that everything I just said, they have no legal ground to stand on that they would ever win in any court of law. And I'm doing this at home, not on a work computer, not on a work anything. This is all me. And I would go into any court of law and stand behind what I just said. And I don't listen to their shows and everyone's responses because they don't respond. All they respond with is insulting me. You know, and that's that's that's their only response ever is to say this. They insult me. You know, I'm sure I'm sure like.
    65:56
    You know, I don't know, they're just not you're just not going to get the truth from them because the truth is too hard to communicate.
    66:03
    The truth is you should never put a pinball machine in front of a window. And, you know, out of all the topics, I don't know. I know most of you don't care about haggis.
    66:14
    It's just a little connection. This one's actually more near and dear to my heart than haggis. That's a window.
    66:23
    That's a window. Now, this room I'm in now, I'm going to pan around a little bit. Pins could go there, but you wouldn't put a pin there because it would block the doorway. You don't want to do that.
    66:37
    Now, this wall here, Perfect for pinball machines. You can put about, I would say a good like five pins can line up at that wall. And this wall even better.
    66:51
    This wall goes all the way here. You're talking about a good eight pins. So there's about 13 pinball machines could probably, 12 to 13 pinball machines could comfortably fit in this space.
    67:07
    Okay. that's a window now if you just google any any interior designer any feng shui about how to place furniture in a room because a pinball machine is a piece of furniture it is a large wooden non-transparent piece of furniture they would never yeah well this is this is the apartment next to me that I'm renting. This is not even my apartment. Canada has, I have my apartment and then I rent this build, the one behind us from the building for just a few months, but this is all going away when we get to the house. If you put a pinball machine here, it would look terrible. And even if I put a curtain over it or a drapes, it's still a window. you're not supposed to block windows with furniture. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like, and, and I've never seen anyone do it where it looks good. The only time it works, there's only one time it works. The only time it looks good and it works is if you live in a floor-to-ceiling glass-walled house or apartment where it just, that works because the reason why that works is you're not blocking, you see this frame? You're not interrupting the framing of the window. The whole thing would be glass. So it would look clean. you guys know I'm right your wives know I'm right anyone who's got any design or style knows I'm right and and we're just gonna leave it at that all right all right so here's what I heard about this Lloyd thing and you know look Lloyd's a great guy he the work he does with the hobbies is tremendous. And, you know, he's, you know, I know that we probably all should be contributing to Lloyd somehow. And I know Lloyd, like financially, like, you know, is on hard times. Like, I've read the stories, I've read the stories, you know, he's he said them publicly, you know, some, I think, you know, there's days where he just has to like, sleep on the floor of his arcade and all it's terrible like the guys it's just it's sad to me that we live in a hobby where distributors and companies can make hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions of dollars a year on margins on cheap plastic toppers and a guy like floyd did i say floyd lloyd sorry i just i for some reason i was thinking like floyd mayweather lloyd mayweather should be his nickname But a guy like Lloyd that spends so many hours helping the community without any pay, without any return, without anything is basically financially struggling all the time.
    70:27
    And it's like you got it just doesn't make sense to me. You know, it just doesn't make sense how there can be so much money floating around this hobby and we can't make sure that Lloyd is like gainfully employed at one of these companies. I don't get it now. I don't have a job to give them, but other people have had opportunities to give them.
    70:49
    And but that story just never really made sense to me of like, why would Jersey Jack have to be unable to work with Lloyd? considering it just seemed like Lloyd would just do the work for free, right? They would like send him games and he would become an expert on how to fix those games.
    71:07
    And why would they ever divorce that relationship when the guy is basically, you know, helping you out? And so what I heard, it kind of makes sense. It's unfortunate because I think it all connects to just, you know, where he's at financially. and the reality of everything is that the reason I heard they separated was it was just over taxes on the free games that Lloyd gets. And that's it. Like he just would just didn't want to like take the tax form or claim those games on his taxes as as as earnings or as an asset to pay tax on. And I think that's unfortunate. And I think, you know, it sucks that I think because of that, his refusal to do that is why I heard that Jersey Jack and him like parted. I think a solution to that would it just have been to make Lloyd a salaried employee?
    72:14
    All he's doing for the hobby, why not just make him a salaried employee and, you know, make it so that, you know, it's part of his job just to have those games and do that work.
    72:29
    But, you know, that's what I heard. And I think it's a lose-lose. I do. I think it's a lose-lose for both parties. And I know he's over at CGC now, but more so, I want to say this, and I mean this. we did a project pinball fundraiser for like years ago and and ken ran it ken cromwell and we were supposed to put all these you know i think it was like willie wonka was out it's a new game we're supposed to put all these willie wonkas into the into the hospitals for the kids and and people raised like fifty thousand dollars it was great it was a great outpouring of charity and generosity from this hobby we all love.
    73:14
    And what I think we should do, you're going to have to pay taxes on this, Lloyd, if we do it, but I think we should do a fundraiser for Lloyd.
    73:24
    And I think after all these done, I've never seen anyone do that for the guy. And so I'm going to do this and I'm going to figure out when to launch it. Let's do it soon. and just all the money we raise. Because I want to also show people that I think my listeners and my followers have the biggest heart. And some of you have the biggest checkbooks. I know you do. But I think we could smash 50 grand for Lloyd just as a payment for decades of the work he's done for us. And I think that would help him so much. And I think it would mean the world to him. And again, like I think we should just all think about, you know, doing something like that for an individual that means so much, you know, to this hobby. And again, like I think it's weird to me to live in a world where like, you know, you've got the abysses that are worth billions of dollars, right? Thousands of millions of dollars made in the world of banking, you know, sold this bank for X amount of billions. Like right before the financial crash of 2008, like the Abbas family, like just crushed it. Great timing, man. They got out right at the right time.
    74:47
    But how can you have all that money? And then a guy like Lloyd is like sleeping on the floor of his arcade.
    74:56
    And when you start to realize like life is so unfair, like when you think about that, Like there is no reason why as a community, you know, we should be standing by and watching somebody suffer. And you know what the thing about Lloyd is? He would never ask for a penny. He could tell it with this character. He would never ask for a penny. He would never expect it from any of us. And he would just like I think he's got too much pride to even want to be involved in anything like this. But I think we should do it anyway. And I think we should show him that all of the help he's provided people over all of these years has not gone unwitnessed and without appreciation. So let me get my marketing mind. Now, the baby's about to come any day now, but I think we do a Lloyd fundraiser and let's see how much we can get. and I think anything we get it's going to go right to him I think we figure out how to like friends and family you know we'll do like small like even if we raise more than the amount like we should wire it over in smaller increments or just heck like just give him cash I know he doesn't want to pay taxes I get it I mean when you're down and out financially the last thing you want to do is give the government anything. I get it. You know, I paid last year.
    76:26
    I paid last year. We can do a GoFundMe, David. The only thing is, David, like, does GoFundMe kick you at 1099?
    76:38
    Does anyone, they must. I'm just trying to avoid, like, you know, like like i'm i'm assuming go fund me might kick you at 10.99 buy him something he needs and cover the taxes i think joe you know what i think he needs joe i think he needs a a good place to stay you know i mean with all the money in his hobby in his community you know setting lloyd up with like a a good apartment wherever he's at like i mean it It would change his life. I paid twenty six thousand dollars in taxes based off of my pinball content.
    77:26
    I paid it, you know, I was like, it is what it is. And and luckily I put that money aside. I didn't I didn't spend it. I can write some stuff off on my taxes, like if I buy games. I didn't buy any games. I wasn't going to lie. Like I didn't buy a game. I sold my Pulp Fiction spot for a thousand dollars. You know, everybody, I'm about to I'm about to have a second baby. My life is about to be turned upside down for the better. um Killian is the greatest gift and his brother will be the second greatest gift and obviously Brenda is the most amazing gift um I come from a very amazing family well a little bit my parents are amazing my twin brother when me and my twin brother are getting along it's it's great I have an older brother I don't talk to at all uh not not you know not by choice it just is what it is like every family's got their drama life is really short i you know i i just don't think anyone should ever get into a pinball scenario where it's stressing them out where they're getting ripped off and they're getting lied and i think marty and damon marty and damian i think they need to take a long hard look in the mirror and and i'm sure they are but i think they need to, I think they need to come clean. And I want to just tell Marty and Damien one thing.
    78:50
    It's not, it's not the worst thing in the world to sometimes just admit defeat and close shop. I mean, because, because, because if the only way to save it is to keep lying to people more and doing all these Mickey Mouse marketing moves and financial fundraising moves that are just, you know, fraudulent or at least I don't even know if they're fraudulent. They're just like they're just they're not going to work. You know, when Damien's tried to compare his operations to Toyota, it was like, are you really thinking that you're anywhere within a country mile of the manufacturing ability of Toyota? The Japanese are the most efficient manufacturers in the world. They would never have done non-refundable deposit schemes the way these guys did it. And I mean it too, because like, it's not lost to me that like Damien's a father with a beautiful boy, you know, he's in like private school and he's got a great wife and you know like these are human beings like i get it like carrie i just was watching this video of carrie was gone in california and his daughter was like getting off of the bus and like saw him and like ran to him and like that love you know like that moment with a love between a parent and a child is a billion times better than any pinball wizard mode or code you're ever going to get. Like we know this stuff, people. And again, as I always say, like the only reason we're in this hobby, it's not because of these games. That's like 30%. The other 70%, it's all about the people, the friendships, the conversations and feeling like we're not alone. You know, the number one thing that has people depressed in this world is a feeling of loneliness. And that feeling of loneliness is the worst it's ever been in Gen Z, because they're addicted to social media, and they stare at cell phones all day long, and they don't know what it's like to build real meaningful relationships in real life. Most of us do. We grew up in a different world. But as long as we have each other and pinball, we're just never going to be alone. And, you know, I want to give a shout out to like Genghis.
    81:22
    When I wake up at three in the morning, I can't sleep. My boy over there in Denmark is up. I want to give a shout out to everybody on my Patreon chat. You guys are the best. That chat is better than Pinside. That chat's better than this Saturday show. It's like if you join the Patreon, there's a chat there that is the greatest running conversation in all of pinball it is it's the greatest running conversation going and it's not negative we do have some fun but everything being said there is a great bonding experience for everyone who's there and you guys know who you are who are there i mean it's absolutely amazing and then my my my boy in america derrick who lost $7,500 on his godfather. And you know, the thing about Derek is like, he buys his games from Zach many. He's bought games from Zach many. And that just goes to show you that deep down, like I'm not even asking my best friend out there to not buy from flipping out. So if you ever think that any of this has like an ulterior motive, it doesn't. I have no beef with those guys or My beef is with Marty and Damien. It's always going to be with the companies.
    82:39
    Zach never should have been in a position to have to give refunds because the game should have been built. Kerry Hardy never should have been off, you know, never should have been chastised by me for unboxing a centaur because centaur unboxing should never have happened until all the fathoms were built. But they're just excited. They're excited because that's why we're in pinball. We want to be excited about this stuff. And opposing things can happen at the same time. Like Kaneda can talk about this stuff and be kind of spot on and still be a narcissistic jackass. Do you understand that? And that's the most important thing to take away as I close out this show is two opposing things can be true. I could be a narcissistic, bipolar jackass who barely plays pinball, but actually be 100 percent accurate about what's going on over at Haggis.
    83:38
    And I know that's hard for some people to understand. Like there are content creators out there that just that just because it's me, they won't listen. You know, you know, like, you know, who says almost the same exact stuff I say every day. Iceman. He hates my guts tremendously. And he basically agrees with everything. We have the same exact point of view on almost all this stuff. Same thing with Bruce over at Slam Tilt. Do you ever hear Bruce? Like like we share like if he listened to my show and my thoughts on every game, We are like exactly the same, but he can't stand me. And it's okay. It's okay. Like everybody, we only got 510 stars. The big hitters did not come into the house tonight. It was like Dana, Mr. Rosen. We didn't get any of the big stars. But what we did get, I think, is one of the greatest Saturday morning spectaculars ever. And that's all that matters. And it means more to me that you join the podcast on Patreon than the stars here. because the stars here, the money goes to Zuckerberg and it goes to Apple. I can't tell you the cut Apple takes. And so like when you go to Patreon, I get to keep most of that. So your money is actually going to where you want it to go. OK, everybody talks. It's too late, brother. I'm not starting over. This was one of the best ever. Guys, thank you. Have a great day. Namaste. today, dwell in the present, the chigoichi, the past is dead, we don't know what the future holds, all we got is today. Love you guys, be good, Kaneda.