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Episode 16 - Nationals, Pinmasters, Stern Showdown

Do or Die Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 5m·analyzed·Apr 12, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Nationals recap, Pinmasters highlights, and Stern Showdown predictions from Raymond Davison.

Summary

Raymond Davison recounts his experience at the IFPA National Championships in Denver and Pinmasters tournament, discussing specific matches, game strategies, and player performances. He defends the IFPA's game-selection format, shares a voicemail from 'Lenny' disputing an Iron Man rules myth, and makes predictions for the Stern Showdown bracket.

Key Claims

  • Colin Urban won the IFPA National Championships, defeating Jason Zahler in the finals on Iron Man.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison, host, discussing Nationals results

  • The Iron Man 'flashing light carryover' rule (getting Monger super allows skipping it next ball) is a myth; it was incorrectly stated in the original Pinball News article.

    medium confidence · Raymond Davison citing a Pinball News article and defending his position; disputed by 'Lenny' in voicemail

  • Keith Elwin almost got knocked out by the Saskatchewan winner at Nationals.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison, describing Nationals tournament surprises

  • The Nationals tournament went until approximately 3 in the morning.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison, opening Nationals discussion

  • Raymond lost to Colin Urban in the semifinals of Nationals and finished fourth in both Nationals and Pinmasters.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison recounting his tournament run

  • Walking Dead was set with no ball savers in multiball at Nationals.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison describing the Walking Dead setup at Nationals

  • Paragon was described as one of the best-playing games at Nationals, with excellent tapping opportunities.

    medium confidence · Raymond Davison, commentary on game quality

  • Robert Byers has a new stream called 'Top Rope Pinball' and is the Texas state champion.

    high confidence · Raymond Davison introducing Robert Byers in second round

Notable Quotes

  • “I'd rather the tournament go a little long and be able to play the games I want to play instead of getting eliminated because you couldn't play a game you wanted to play.”

    Raymond Davison @ ~5:00 — Core argument defending IFPA's game-selection format and accessibility for state champions

  • “The right thing to do on Deadpool, though, and I always forget this, don't start your mode until after you've shot the right orbit twice because shooting the right orbit twice lights your chimichangas.”

    Raymond Davison @ ~25:00 — Specific strategic advice for Deadpool, demonstrating competitive game knowledge

  • “Andy Rosa, the menace from Michigan. Man, this guy, if he just went to tournaments, like, he would be... Maybe he already is top 10, actually.”

    Raymond Davison @ ~32:00 — Praise for Andy Rosa's skill level despite apparent low IFPA ranking

  • “I like to live dangerously, I guess. I don't know. That was just what I was feeling at the time. So it worked out.”

    Raymond Davison @ ~45:00 — Reflection on risky strategic choices when ahead in a match

  • “Ray, this is Lenny in New York City. Look, you know, I know you'd think I had more important things to deal with right now, you know, with everything going on, but I was alerted to the fact that you're telling people that it's a myth that if you get the super jackpot on Iron Monger...”

    Lenny @ ~65:00 — Voicemail dispute over Iron Man rule mechanics, establishing community debate about game rules

  • “Batman 66 is just try to get as many freaking billions of points as you can, you know, get those huge multipliers, get those big super jackpots, get the stacks, the wombo combos, and it's just fun.”

    Raymond Davison @ ~90:00 — Design philosophy preference: casual fun vs. goal-oriented gameplay

  • “I don't have my Iron Man anymore. I sold it. It's coming back in a couple months. So if I have to berate you once a week from now on until I get that game back, I'm going to do it.”

    Lenny — Humorous but pointed commentary showing community attachment to games and rules debates

Entities

Raymond DavisonpersonColin UrbanpersonKeith ElwinpersonAndy RosapersonRobert ByerspersonJason ZahlerpersonAsher LefkoffpersonLennypersonPhil Grimaldiperson

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: IFPA National Championships won by Colin Urban (defeated Jason Zahler in finals); Raymond finished fourth after losing to Colin in semifinals and Keith Elwin in tiebreaker

    high · Raymond's direct recounting of finals results and his own placement

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinmasters tournament: Raymond finished fourth; Asher Lefkoff advanced further; multiple hole-in-ones recorded by competitors

    high · Raymond's placement and discussion of semifinals/finals outcomes

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Andy Rosa recognized as exceptionally skilled player with legendary nudging abilities despite low apparent IFPA ranking

    medium · Raymond's commentary questioning Andy's low IFPA visibility despite top-level play

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Significant setup differences observed across machines at Nationals: Walking Dead had no ball savers; Iron Man was deadly; Batman had excellent shot layout; 24 had no outline rubber

    high · Raymond's detailed descriptions of machine setups affecting gameplay

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Strategic tips shared for multiple games: Deadpool (right orbit twice before modes); Walking Dead (Tunnel mode via right orbit); Wonka (5x super spinner); Paragon (tapping quality); Andromeda (loose tilt, slap saves)

    high · Raymond's detailed machine-specific strategy commentary

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.196

0:00
Welcome to Do or Die, a podcast about competitive pinball. I'm your host, Raymond Davidson, here to help you stay up to date on the latest strategies, tournaments, and happenings in the competitive pinball world, while also sharing direct stories with me as I go forth on my pinball tournament adventures.
0:30
Welcome, welcome, welcome again to Do or Die. It's been a while, but we'll see how much I can remember about the IFPA National Championships and Pinmasters. and also going to have a special guest on tonight, just a little voicemail he left me. And then also followed by the Stern Showdown. I had to discuss my picks and defend them and see who I think should win the Stern Showdown. All right, so first of all, Nationals. The tournament itself was held in Denver, Colorado at the Game Exchange. and it featured the state and province and district of Columbia winners. So anybody who won their state or province or district, I guess, got to play in it. So there was no easy opponents and there were some pretty exciting matches. It went until about 3 in the morning, which, spoiler alert, I did not last that long. Although I lasted a while. And, man, it was just full of surprises. and Keith Elwood almost got knocked out by someone from Canada, the, I think, Saskatchewan winner.
1:58
And that was exciting. So, yeah, it was really fun. And then after the Nationals was Pidmasters, which is actually what started the whole Do or Die podcast, or at least that was the tournament that I did first. So I guess it's my anniversary now because I've gone a whole year here. All right, let's jump in. So my first round of Nationals, and this is just a single elim bracket best of seven so you just have to take one opponent at a time and you gotta win four games against them every time you lose you get to pick the next game so you're always playing what you want to play which I really like and I think all tournaments should be like that or at least the serious, you know, if you really want to determine the winner you should be able to pick the games you want to play or at least be able to use them You know, use the picks. You know, obviously you can't just only play games you want to play because other people like games too. But I really love the IFPA for all their tournaments just having lots of skill, basically. Like, you play tons of games, you play the games you want to play, and ultimately the champion earned it, you know. They fought long and hard and got to the end. So I know a lot of people were critical, let's say, of the IFPA letting people wait in line for their favorite game. But, hey, you waited a whole year playing in tournaments in your state to play in your state championship. Then you had to beat everyone else in your state to win the state championship. You had to come down to Denver, Colorado, and, you know, you deserve a chance. If it means waiting an extra hour, an extra hour and a half, whatever. Like, you've already done a whole year of waiting.
@ ~75:00
Greg Pavarelli
person
Steve Hillperson
IFPAorganization
Game Exchangevenue
Pinmastersevent
IFPA National Championshipsevent
Stern Showdownevent
Walking Deadgame
Deadpoolgame
Iron Mangame
Batman 66game
Iron Maidengame
Paragongame
Last Action Herogame
Colorado Pinballorganization
Do or Die Pinball Podcastorganization

community_signal: Active community dispute over Iron Man rule mechanics regarding Monger super jackpot and Do or Die multiball; Pinball News article cited as source of confusion

medium · Lenny's voicemail disputing Raymond's claim about flashing lights not carrying over

  • ?

    tournament_signal: Raymond advocates for IFPA game-selection format allowing players to queue favorite games, argues it rewards skilled tournament preparation despite longer event duration

    high · Extended discussion defending player game choice vs. random assignment

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Raymond expresses preference for Batman 66's casual multiplier stacking fun over Guardians of the Galaxy's goal-oriented gameplay

    medium · Stern Showdown commentary comparing game philosophies

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Robert Byers launched new stream called 'Top Rope Pinball' and recently acquired Iron Maiden machine

    high · Raymond's introduction of Robert Byers and reference to new streaming initiative

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinmasters semifinals streamed by Colorado Pinball; coverage available for viewers

    high · Raymond's reference to streamed semifinals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong interpersonal dynamic evident: Raymond respects Andy Rosa's skill despite competitive loss; acknowledges Colin Urban's championships; playful voicemail dispute with Lenny shows tight community bonds

    high · Respectful commentary on opponents and humorous tone with Lenny

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern Showdown bracket analysis suggests games like Lord of the Rings, Batman 66, Game of Thrones remain competitive favorites; Batman 66 preferred over Guardians of the Galaxy

    medium · Raymond's Stern Showdown predictions and game comparisons

    • 3:49
    I just don't understand the appeal of, no, we can't. You know, we've got to move this along. It's like, well, yeah, I mean, logistically, going until 3 in the morning wasn't the greatest, but I thought it was better than if I had to be put on random games or games I don't want to play.
    4:08
    I'd rather have that happen to me. as a player. Sure, as a viewer, you know, it might not be the best. Or as a tournament director, it might not be the best. And as a player, you know, I guess you might get a little tired. But for me, I'd rather the tournament go a little long and be able to play the games I want to play instead of, you know, getting eliminated because you couldn't play a game you wanted to play, right? Then it doesn't matter how long the tournament goes because you won't be in it. so anyway that's my quick little rant on that subject let's uh let's start with the first round i played against someone uh steve hill uh he was the kansas city champion um so he you know he had to beat out uh the the carry wings of the world uh sam swain jason scheffelmeyer uh you know all those great uh kansas city players and uh so he he came out on top in kansas so i had to play him first round, and I know I just preached about being patient and playing games you want to play, but man, that first round, the lines were pretty rough, so I just went for Walking Dead because there was nobody on it, and I like Walking Dead, so I was okay taking that chance. It was the first game. I had games to burn, and oh man, it was set up so mean. There was no ball savers on anything, no ball savers in multiball. It was just like get any points you possibly could. And ball one, started barn and then immediately drained trying to post pass. So that sucked. I learned to post pass better, I guess, or don't try a post pass on that particular Walking Dead. So I actually used that little, you know, learnings on ball two, when I had the ball trapped on my left with a mode lit. Now, normally, I would post pass and shoot the ramp and do CDC. But because I drained trying to do that and I could not successfully post pass on ball one, I just shot the right orbit. I started tunnel and I killed tunnel for like 120 million. That mode's great. Don't be afraid of that right orbit. It's a pretty nice shot, honestly, and it's not really punishing at all. The worst that happens is you nick off well walker or you hit some pop bumpers and then it comes back out. It's no more dangerous than making a successful left orbit, honestly. So yeah, Tunnel, man. Go for Tunnel if you need points. And yeah, that ended up being enough to take that game. Frontier was his choice for game two. I won that, although I think he got kind of unlucky, you know, how Frontier is, where it's just like sometimes the ball doesn't make it to your flippers. But I was able to get a handle on it. I actually took a shot at the center target a couple times because I had like both my right and left columns built all the way up and had nothing in the center, which on ball one, this frontier was set to give you super bonus every ball or to give you the frontier bonus, which is what you get for having completed lines.
    7:08
    And because it was set that way, ball one, I was like, all right, I'm going to shoot the center because that's like a guaranteed, I don't know, 90K throughout the game. I didn't do the math, but that's a lot when it holds your animal bonus and your line bonus.
    7:29
    So yeah, Frontier, that's an alright game. I wish it didn't rely as much on the... Actually, I kind of like that game if you just disabled all three rollovers up top and made you shoot targets for bonus. That'd be interesting.
    7:44
    So after that, he took me to Black Knight Sword of Rage. and I'm just like, all right, I'm just going to play modes, grind them out. I always start with a super skill shot because you've got to hit the flail anyway, so you might as well get a million points for it. Right? Seems logical. And then I realized maybe I should go regular skill shot because of those war lanes. I know a lot of people are getting some good war hurry-up points.
    8:14
    So I don't know. I'm kind of conflicted on that. what do you think? write in to doordiepinballpodcast at gmail.com and tell me if you should go for the super skill or go for the regular skill because I don't really know what's best I kind of like the super skill just because it gets the ball to your flipper and you just start going and the war lanes will kind of just happen you know in multi-ball and stuff anyway so Black Knight I ended up I think I lost barely. I was on my way back and he put up a good game and I just fell short which was a bummer. But then I picked Deadpool. I love Deadpool and I did my, I stacked Megalodon with multi-ball but oh my god, there was like no ball saver and I wasn't ready for that. Like actual zero ball saver and so that didn't go well. But I think it was enough to win, luckily. Uh, and then, um, let's see. So I won Walking Dead, Frontier, Deadpool.
    9:22
    Oh, maybe I lost that one. I think I did lose that one. Yeah, I lost Deadpool. Uh, and so then I picked Last Action Hero, just because it was kind of a controllable game, I guess. And I think I, I got multiple, he didn't. That was kind of the end of the story. Nothing exciting there. Uh, so that put me up three to two. Then he picked Iron Man. And I just shot ramps. I don't even think I started a monger multiball. I just shot bogey ramps, and I think he got eaten alive by Iron Man. Which, that Iron Man, that was not a nice Iron Man, which is partially why I went for ramps, because it was so deadly doing anything else. So that was round one, survived, and then I got to play Robert Byers, Texas champion.
    10:08
    He's got a new stream, Top Rope Pinball, I think it's called. and so he's been really rocking that lately. Check him out. He picked, or I picked Deadpool and I think after two balls, both of us had under five million. Like we both did nothing.
    10:32
    And so going into ball three, I just slowly started, you know, started, I think I started Ninja Multi-Ball first and that kind of got me going and comfy, and then I parlayed that into more and more and more and ended up getting like $600 million. And so I ended up winning Deadpool. But man, that ball three was not looking pretty. My strategy on Deadpool, I usually pick a mode,
    10:59
    try to beat the mode, take shots at the ninja ramp, the locked balls, just when convenient. The right thing to do on Deadpool, though, and I always forget this, don't start your mode until after you've shot the right orbit twice because shooting the right orbit twice lights your chimichangas. Or maybe just once. Yeah, you just shoot the right orbit once, and it lights all your chimichangas. And so if you're in a mode, the right orbit will not light chimichangas, but if you light it before you start the mode, then you can collect chimichangas in the mode, so you get double time. So always the first shot you make on Deadpool should almost always be the right orbit.
    11:37
    That's my little advice for that game. uh so he picked paragon next and uh oh man i love the way that paragon played it was like tapping really good uh shots were good and i i think i got super bonus 5x on ball one so that was kind of over uh and then he picked soccer which was a it's like the 300 em we got the balls and you have to like shoot the spinner to get bonus and stuff and i think we both kind of did not do good uh but i barely passed him by like a thousand or something and uh that game just don't tilt right it's like where all your points are and learn the you know learn the plunge to try to get those lanes to give you some bonus and uh learn the uh learn where the spinner is for sure after that he chose maiden and uh i i played it okay he played it okay uh i don't think either Maybe I put up like $150, $200 million. He put up like $100 million. So it wasn't like a total blowout or anything.
    12:41
    But I ended up taking it on Maiden. And so I survived. Survived the Robert Byers. He loves Maiden, so no surprise that he picked it. I think he has one now, and he's trying to get Run to the Hills.
    12:57
    I still have never done that. My maiden's on loan right now to a friend, so won't be able to do that anytime soon. But everyone else is doing it, apparently. Phil Grimaldi just got it a couple hours ago. That was cool. Anyway, so after Robert, I got to play Andy Rosa,
    13:17
    the menace from Michigan. Man, this guy, if he just went to tournaments, like, he would be... Maybe he already is top 10, actually. I don't know. Where is he in IFPA? Let's see. uh no i don't even see him on the front page surprising uh he definitely deserves to be in the top 10 though his nudging skills are legendary um he he does not drain without a fight man he's so good uh so i i defer to him let him pick because i figure we like the same games and it paid off he chose batman uh he loves batman i love batman and i i did i did the thing i got Bookworm and Mr. Freeze beat on ball one. So I had the party, right? No timers. Timers frozen for the whole game. And so I had like a billion after two balls, and that was enough to win. So that was sweet.
    14:15
    That Batman, everyone was complaining about it, but it was the nicest shooting Batman I have ever seen. You could make the left ramp like butter.
    14:25
    Every shot was right where it was supposed to be. It was beautiful. So then Andy chose 24, and I don't think I could do anything. I missed the center ramp. I couldn't post pass, couldn't shoot the ramp, and it punished me because that game, the way it was set up with no outline rubber, it was super deadly. I liked that game, though, but I just couldn't play it. So then I chose Paragon because I had crushed it against rubber earlier, but, man, it got revenge. I got no flip of ball one. and no flip ball two. But Andy also got, like, no flips ball one and ball two. And so ball three, I got more golden clips than he did, and I won. So I did not deserve that one, but I took it. And, you know, part of my choice to choose Paragon, it was a combination of I know Andy's really freaking good, and I know when he gets to pick games he's probably going to pick games I like and I did really good on Paragon earlier so it was kind of the combination of all three of those that made me choose Paragon because I felt I was good at it I felt like it might throw him off guard he might not like it that much and there was a little bit of chance factor to maybe not let him use all of his strengths to his advantage I mean, it could have backfired, and it almost did. But, you know, I was up a game, so I had that risk to take.
    16:00
    A lot of people don't agree with this kind of strategy. They say if you're ahead, you should make not risky decisions. And if you're behind, you should make risky decisions. Well, I don't know. I like to live dangerously I guess I don know That was just what I was feeling at the time So it worked out and then he chose Deadpool as foretold And he freaking blew it up into pieces. It got like, I don't know, one and a half billion or something.
    16:30
    And I was coming back on Ball 3. I got up to like 600, but that wasn't one and a half billion. So then I chose Last Action Hero. and I think I played multiball a little better than he did and I won that game then he chose Wonka and oh god I hate playing Wonka in tournaments it's just so like I feel like you don't have that much agency on what your points actually end up being it's like sure you can have a strategy but if anything goes wrong in that strategy or even if it goes right you know there's no guarantee you're going to blow it up but i had to ask around and dig for information on this game to figure out you know i'm gonna have to have a plan uh and you know i learned about how you get the 5x scoring by shooting the purple shots and i learned that the super spinner is the orange shot the captive ball and if you get 5x super spinner it's like ludicrous points so i kind of kept that in the back of my mind you know and then also go after gobstopper right away and i ended up putting it together and i got i don't know maybe like 300 000 or something but he he could not put it together he got less than 100 000 and so i i got him i moved on and yeah that was that was it for uh for andy rosa and uh it was a pleasure playing him can't wait for this whole uh coronavirus menace to be gone so we can you know play each other again sometime uh so after that i got to go against my my arch nemesis colin expletive urban sorry i Colin Urban has been kicking my ass. He has eliminated me from pretty much any tournament me and him have both made it to the same stage at. And I thought, no, this is it. I'm going to show him. I'm going to beat him this time.
    18:36
    And I freaking tried, man. I put up... Well, game one I chose Walking Dead, and it didn't look like I tried because I shit the bed and got nothing. but the next game uh let's see i think uh this is where my notes kind of peter off because it was like one in the morning or something but it looks like uh somehow i let him choose 24 i guess i i deferred and yeah he blew it up but i also did nothing so i'm a little flustered i got two nothing games like two games where i did not play very well so then i'm like all right enough of this batman let's go to batman and i crush batman i get like a billion and i'm like yes all right i can play pinball thank god let's do this and then after that i think he chooses iron maiden and gets like a casual 300 million ball one or something and i put up like 150 ball one which is pretty good and then you know i almost catch to one ball three, but he put up too many points. I put up a lot of points too, but he put up more than me. And so he beat me on Iron Maiden. And then I don't know what else, what other games I picked. I think Last Action Hero was, or Paragon maybe. Did I pick Paragon? I don't know. Like I said, this is where my notes disappear. All I know is I was tired um and then i lost on last action hero and got eliminated and so that was that was the end of my tournament uh colin urban ended up winning the whole thing uh hooray for colin urban uh congrats that was uh pretty impressive he defeated jason zahler in the finals jason who was on fire he beat it he beat keith handedly like just crushed him every game um so that finals was pretty epic. I think it came down to Ironman, and Colin did, and Jason died. So, congrats to Colin for winning the Nationals, National Champion. So, after Nationals was the Pinmasters, and unfortunately I have no notes on Pinmasters, other than on World Cup Soccer, I guess, apparently I had Final Draw lit after Ball 1, and then Drain the next two balls missing it and so then i was like screw this i'm just gonna shoot ramps and goals to get to the par score because i only needed like 80 million and that was the lesson there i guess who needs final draw right uh really pay attention to your your par scores uh let's see pin masters i don't know if i'm gonna be able to remember all the games or what the strategies were I can give you the highlights that I remember. I remember on Adam's Family,
    21:33
    I did so bad actually flipping the game, but because I got my skill shot every ball, I got a five or four or something, just from getting skill shots. So don't miss your skill shots because they can quite literally be the... I might have got a six, actually, five or a six, but it wasn't a 10. Just because I was getting skill shots.
    21:59
    And then I think I got a hole-in-one on Batman, maybe. Or hole-in-two. Man. I really just... My memory is not very strong with Pinmasters. I think Walking Dead I went to tunnel again. That was how I got my strokes on Walking Dead.
    22:23
    Let's see. Iron Maiden was eating people alive, but I was able to get a 2 on it, I think. Star Wars was interesting. Stern Star Wars. Everyone chose Leia because just lighting your missions was enough to give you 250 million, as long as you did it with your multipliers on. And then there was also this weird thing with Leia that no one could understand, where on, like, Ball 2 or 3, if you chose light tattooed missions or something, it would give you an absurd amount of points like like 100 million or something and the math just didn't add up it didn't make any sense uh but i definitely used that to get my my three um yeah so that was sweet i didn't even have to hit a shot right i just had to choose the right skill shot and that's that's kind of thing about pin masters is every decision matters so much every micro decision that you choose just matters because you just need to get the points, right? You need to get a certain score. And if you don't get that certain score, it's not like, oh, I get a last place. It's, oh, I get a 10. And I'm basically eliminated from the tournament. I mean, you can recover from a 10. I know Kaylee did it last year, but it's pretty hard. So just focus on getting the score. Don't get frustrated when you drain because it's going to happen. Just set a plan for yourself on the game being like, all right, as long as I do this, I'll get the score and everything will be fine. And then if it becomes ball five and the plan is not coming together, you better come up with a new plan because that ball five can be the difference between a five and a 10.
    24:08
    So just, you know, you got to be smart. You got to see what the lowest hanging fruit is. And also what shots you're most comfortable with. You know, you definitely don't want to be taking shots that you're not confident about on ball five of pin masters.
    24:26
    Yeah, so I ended up, it came down to, I needed to get like a four on Willy Wonka to move on to the finals. And I got it in two. So I was thrilled because Willy Wonka could have easily been an eight or nine. Because if you don't do the thing, you get nothing really. you get nothing good day sir uh luckily i did the thing i did the 5x super spinner and it was over um and the way that wonka was playing uh you know just start gobstopper and you probably got it honestly uh it was playing it really fair it was a really fair wonka actually so i ended up making finals and i think i ended up uh advancing a couple rounds um you know picking my favorites like Batman and whatnot. But then I made it to the final. Oh, that's right, the semis. I had to beat Jason Zoller and Keith Elwin in a tiebreaker.
    25:25
    In order to get to the tiebreaker, I had to hole in one Deadpool. So, I think the semifinals are on stream. Colorado Pinball. Great job, by the way. And so if you want to go watch those, I remember my semifinals being so stressful. It was like Jason Zoller, Keith Elwin,
    25:46
    and I don't know who the other person was, but I just remember I needed to get ones and twos in order to survive. And I somehow survived to a tiebreaker with Keith and Jason on Andromeda. And that Andromeda had killed me so much in the qualifying rounds, but the one thing I learned about it was the tilt was loose. And so I used that to my advantage. I made sure when the ball was coming down that right lane, gave it a slap. You know, big old slap saves.
    26:17
    And I basically, I didn't F around on Andromeda. I just kind of flailed. Like, just keep it alive. Because the way that flipper geometry is with that weird bumper and things, it's pretty hard to actually get control and, like, shoot the lock shot and then shoot it again. and even if you do that, someone else can steal your ball. So I was definitely more flailing to targets because if you increase your spinner, it stays increased. And so I spent ball one shooting targets. I got my spinner raised and then ball two, I was able to collect a couple spinners. And so I ended up getting a two. Jason got a three. Keith got a two or Keith got a one. Who am I kidding? And so me and Keith moved on to the final four where I ran into Escher Lefkoff, who just got hole-in-one, hole-in-one, hole-in-one.
    27:12
    You know, I got like a hole-in-two on 24. I was proud of that, especially how mean 24 was to me in Nationals. But a two is not a one. And then on Walking Dead, I couldn't do anything. It was abysmal.
    27:26
    I got like a nine or something. Whatever I did, it meant I couldn't get... I got fourth. So on Star Wars, it didn't matter. so I got fourth in pinmasters and then I also got fourth in nationals because I lost my tiebreaker to Keith so I got to lose to both my nemesis Nemesai in nationals, Keith and Colin but you know taking home fourth and fourth, pretty happy about that big whopper haul and you know those whoppers are going to count extra because there's no whopper events for a while well anyway So yeah, that was kind of the quick version, speed run of Nationals and Pinmasters.
    28:11
    It was a lot of fun. I think I'll still do Pinmasters even if I don't win my state, just because it is a circuit event, and it's a lot of pinball. You get 18 holes over two days. It's just fun, and you never feel like you're totally out of it. and you really get to stretch that brain in a different way where you have to think about the game a little differently. So I recommend trying it. It's not for everyone, so be warned. Don't go into Pin Masters expecting that you're going to love it because you might not, but you've got to try it once because you might absolutely love it.
    28:52
    Anyway, let's see. So I mentioned I got a special guest. the reason this is even on the Do or Die Pinball Podcast is because it relates directly to Do or Die and there was a thread I think Greg Pavarelli hijacked a thread or I don't even know what the thread was about originally but somehow Greg was like I never get Do or Die, it always blocks me with Jericho and I'm like Greg, Greg, Greg this is like the most one of the biggest like legends or myths in pinball and I believed it for the longest time because the pinball news article when Iron Man first came out said this and it is just not true it said that if you beat if you get a monger super it will flash and so on your next ball you don't have to get monger to get do or die that is inaccurate on avatar that is true because there's no such thing as an award on avatar for getting everything flashing so the way avatar rewards you is if you get something flashing you don't have to get it on the next ball iron man because you get do or die multi-ball if you get everything flashing it wouldn't make sense for um basically pretend you got four out of the five lights flashing and now all you have to do is just play monger for and don't beat it just purposely not beat monger and you can just get do or die over and over again right like that wouldn't make any sense so that's why the flashing light carrying over nonsense is is just not true and i think i've actually mentioned this on my podcast before uh but a certain someone wasn't buying it was not buying it. Here, let me put on the voicemail I got and you can hear it for yourself.
    30:54
    Ray, this is Lenny in New York City. Look, you know, I know you'd think I had more important things to deal with right now, you know, with everything going on, but I was alerted to the fact that you're telling people that it's a myth that if you get the super jack on Ironmonger that you don't have to do it again and you can get the do or die hurry up. And that's just, I don't know what you're telling with that. I used to have that game. I used to play it all the time. You get the super jackpot, the light stops flashing or starts flashing, whichever one it's supposed to do, and then you don't have to get it again. Then you can just get the other four things in one ball and you got door to eye. So look, I know it's a pandemic. I know it's a national health crisis, but that's no reason for you to take the opportunity to spread your lies. So, you know, I don't have my Ironman anymore. I sold it. It's coming back in a couple months. So if I have to berate you once a week from now on until I get that game back, I'm going to do it. So I really want you, you know, people look up to you, right? They look up to you. And I just don't think it's cool that you would spread this kind of misinformation. We have enough of that going on right now. So maybe go back to the shed, take off the glass, and test the theory out. See what happens. Thanks, Ray.
    32:03
    I hope this doesn't really affect our friendship. Bye. Yeah, well, there you go. So, no, it doesn't affect our friendship, Levy. Of course not.
    32:14
    But someone should try it. I want to see video proof one way or the other so we can finally put this to bed and move on.
    32:26
    Anyway, so that was a special guest. Thank you, Levy. All right so next up before we leave I want to do the Stern Showdown everyone talking about So let me pull up the bracket here
    32:45
    Let's see. Stern Showdown. Excellent. Look at that pretty graphic. There's the bracket there. All right, let me open it up.
    32:55
    All right, first up, we got Lord of the Rings versus Mustang. Lord of the Rings wins handedly. Mustang's a good game, but it's not as good as Lord of the Rings. I do like Mustang.
    33:11
    It'd be fun to do a ranked Stern showdown where you don't face them against each other, but you face them against all of them. And I bet Mustang would fall, you know, it'd be in the third quartile, but it wouldn't, I mean, maybe the top of the fourth quartile. It wouldn't be last, though. I do like some Mustang, but Lord of the Rings, come on, way better, way better game.
    33:36
    Guardians of the Galaxy versus Batman 66. Ooh, I've been hearing a lot about this one. And for me, personally, Batman 66 wins. And the reason is I sold my Guardians of the Galaxy and I have not sold my Batman 66 and I don't think I will just because I have so much fun playing Batman 66. it's like there's no pressure to like get to the wizard mode or like like i don't know it's just fun like batman 66 is just try to get as many freaking billions of points as you can you know get those huge multipliers get those big super jackpots get the stacks the wombo combos and it's just fun i just have so much fun playing batman 66 guardians of the galaxy it's like it's kind of a drag. It's like, I gotta beat this mode. I gotta shoot these shots. You know, I gotta do this. I gotta do that. Um, and it's just, I just don't have as much fun with it as, uh, as Batman. And the audio and video in Batman is so much better than Guardians. Um, but you know, Guardians is a good game. I, I owned one for a while. Um, I like it. Uh, but Batman is just better. And, uh, But yeah, just definitely better. So Game of Thrones versus KISS. Game of Thrones, easy because I don't like KISS. That game sucks.
    35:05
    None of the shots are satisfying. The rules are not good. It's like, oh, how long can you last on this one ball? That determines your whole score. Well, sorry. I'll have to bleep that out. But yeah, I don't know. It's not that bad. I'm giving it way too much crap. But I don't really like the way the multipliers work, where as soon as you drain your ball, they all go back to one. I actually liked it better the way it used to be, where every two songs it would increase your multiplier, but it would remember that multiplier, so the next time you beat a song, it would go back to where it was. The new rule is it increases the multiplier after every song instead of every other song. but when you drain it goes all the way back to 1x so I just don't like that because whether you did it on ball 1 or ball 2 shouldn't exponentially change your score like I don't know I'm not into it also Game of Thrones is just so much more fun to shoot I think it's smooth Steve Ritchie buttery flow action it's not the greatest game in the world but it's a fun game I like Game of Thrones has some satisfying shots and moments Kiss, not so much. I guess getting a mega Love Gun Super is kind of cool. So Game of Thrones wins that. Next up is Family Guy versus Walking Dead. This one pains me because I really like both of these games.
    36:37
    I don't know if I can say Family Guy with a straight face because I think Walking Dead is a better game.
    36:48
    Just because Family Guy is a little clunky and it's a drag. It's a long player. The rules aren't all that inspiring. Some of the goals just seem kind of thrown together. It's like, oh, get 15 fart jackpots or whatever to get the wizard mode. But I do love Family Guy. I just wish I didn't have to eliminate it right away.
    37:13
    So I think I... Oh, man, that's tough. yeah I think Walking Dead wins it over Family Guy um no actually you know what I might do another one of these where I do so this one's gonna be my opinion I might do another version of this that's sort of more objective I guess and I'll try to say which one is the better game from not for my biases but you know what this is my Stern Showdown I actually like Family Guy more than Walking Dead I'd rather play Family Guy than play Walking Dead Family Guy is more fun it has more quotes it has infinite quotes like literally infinite quotes I've never heard I still hear new quotes and it's just so much more fun Walking Dead it can be fun but man it can piss you off too you know I still have my Walking Dead and every once in a while I'll play a game and I'll remind myself why I don't play that game very much because I get so frustrated, you know, when everything's starting to come together and then you just get a sling drain or a drop target doesn't go down or something times out right before the money shot or, you know, oh, I've got to survive the prison but it's going to send it straight down the middle. Yeah, so I've definitely, you know, family guy. Family guy wins in the upset against Walking Dead.
    38:44
    All right, next lower left bracket here, Jurassic Park versus WWE. Why is that even... Jurassic Park just got a bye. Like, they should have just wrote Jurassic Park in the next spot, because there's no point in trying to... Yeah, okay. Next, X-Men versus Elvira House of Horrors.
    39:05
    So, similar to the last matchup, or not the last one, but the Walking Dead matchup, House of Horrors is probably objectively the better game or at least it's going to be but right now I'd rather play an X-Men because it's complete and it has a side flipper and I love side flippers House of Horrors right now to me it just doesn't do a whole lot it's just kind of generic you know generic mode game fan layout I don't know, it has really cool audio really cool visuals and the potential's there. And it's got the super jackpot guy, which is worth a lot.
    39:50
    But, oh man, I think I like X-Men a little bit more just because it's got, like I said, it's got that side flipper. It's got a lot of modes fleshed out. It's got some good combos.
    40:09
    I'm going to go X-Men. Iron Man vs. Stranger Things I guess Iron Man I mean Stranger Things is fine I don't think it's as bad as everyone says I actually like it but Iron Man I think I like Iron Man a little bit more but that's tough yeah I think Iron Man wins just because it's complete, I guess, and it's less clunky than Stranger Things. Stranger Things has a lot of not-so-great geometries about it. Iron Man almost flawless geometries, really. It's pretty good as they come. So I like Iron Man better.
    40:59
    Alright, Ripley's Believe It or Not versus Metallica. Believe it or not, I actually will go with Ripley's. I have more fun playing that game than Metallica. Metallica to me has amazing rules and when you have a good game of Metallica it's like the best game in the world because it just feels so good you know you got your coffin multi-ball coming in at just the right time you've got these other modes that kind of start up as you're doing stuff you got the crank it up modes that are a blast to play and you know when you get that 500 million game it's a great game but that doesn't happen every game a lot of games you're missing ramps because they're in clunky spots or you're draining off a Sparky or you're getting borg'd out the left out lane. You know, it's just not every game is fun. Whereas Ripley's, I feel like I have fun playing that game just all the time just because I like the shots, I like the sounds. You know, it's got really cool, like, goofy sound effects and call-outs and stuff. And I'm a sucker for third flippers. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Ripley's, believe it or not, wins it for me, believe it or not. uh the upper right corner uh oh plus ripley's has super jackpot call out which is amazing uh okay upper right corner we got acdc versus transformers uh they're basically they're kind of similar games really you just grind out shots until you your hands fall off but ACDC is better, more fun. Transformers, not fun. So ACDC wins.
    42:36
    Transformers is just everything so goddamn linear. ACDC, at least you get those explosions of points. You know, it's fun. Beatles versus Star Trek. Star Trek, easy. Beatles, I... No. Flipper Gap's too big. It has a bunch of drop targets that you don't actually want to hit. it's got a loop that sometimes is cool to shoot, but it just I don't know, it doesn't I just don't like Beatles. I don't like how it shoots. I don't like how mean it is.
    43:08
    I do like the music, obviously. You know, the music is great. And it is, I think I would have fun with Beatles if I didn't play it in tournaments.
    43:19
    Like if I just had one I could play over and over again. But, you know, I'm biased here. This is my showdown. I'm going with Star Trek, just because Star Trek, obviously,
    43:31
    you know, I'm still playing it, trying to get to a five-year mission, you know, and those shots are so smooth on Star Trek. Oh, so smooth. Spider-Man versus Munsters. I like Spider-Man. wait Munsters oh I forgot okay yeah definitely Spider-Man um Munsters is not good I I hate Munsters it's so it's like everything I don't like about pinball in a pinball it's like oh you want points you better get 6x scoring and get a super jackpot oh you got you you think you have it set up you're ready to go you got 6x scoring try to hit that super jackpot on purpose oh it's a clunky shot that's hard to aim at and sometimes just goes through yeah that's super fun it's just like monsters everything about it is frustrating it's like oh bash herman oh it drained you that sucks you know it's like uh there's orbits that don't score any points there's uh you know it's just it's too one-dimensional which isn't a bad thing in some games but the one dimension is not fun if the one dimension is fun then sure but monsters i i do not have fun playing the game i get angry playing that game pure rage uh so spider-man easy uh let's see uh pirates versus simpsons pinball party um that's a tough one but you know simpsons it's my it's my favorite game i think pretty much of all time um it's just so good it's got it's it's so fun to stack everything because there's always another thing to stack so like once the party gets going you just keep bringing more things into the party and and see how long you can get it to last and it's just it's a blast and you know it's got the hard to reach wizard mode uh the shots in it are pretty fun i actually love like the side flipper shots sucker for side flippers um and yeah i just really like simpsons uh pirates is good but i think simpsons is better um so simpsons wins i think pirates Pirates is okay, but it gets a little boring.
    46:04
    It's pretty simple. It's like shoot the chest a bunch of times. Shoot the left ramp a bunch of times. That sort of thing.
    46:12
    Alright, finally the bottom quadrant. Deadpool versus Avengers. Deadpool wins. Way more fun than Avengers. Avengers is horrible. I don't know.
    46:25
    Avengers has no good shots except for the left orbit ramp thing, I guess. Uh, but Avengers, I just never feel like I'm having fun. It's like not clear where the points are at, not clear, like that, that ramp that just doesn't work very good. You know, Deadpool has its own clunky shots, but it's way better than Avengers. Um, I, I have fun playing Deadpool. I've been, I've been wanting to get a Deadpool actually. just because it's such a goofy game. It's got good sound, you know, it's good flow, a lot of multi-ball action and just fun shots. So Deadpool wins over Avengers. Tron versus Black Knight Sword of Rage.
    47:14
    Um, hmm. I think I like Tron better. Sword of Rage is good, but the premium ruins it. and the layout of Black Knight is just so punishing.
    47:32
    It's just five shots that are really close to your flippers. It doesn't have enough variety for me. Tron has a third flipper. Love the third flippers.
    47:46
    They both have great music. But I think I give it to Tron. Ghostbusters vs. Star Wars comic is that just oh Stern Wars I guess Ghostbusters vs. Stern Wars wow that's man that's like a match made in heaven right like which one would I rather not play I think I hate Star Wars less than I hate Ghostbusters Star Wars actually shoots good Ghostbusters does not shoot good they're both equally as bonkers when it comes to rules and equally as like not the kind of style that i like where you have to like kind of get the multipliers going and it's it's hard i feel like you don't have as much agency on those games uh you know your best games are ones that happen by accident your worst games might be ones that you were trying your hardest on like i'm not into that so they both kind of are the same in that front but star wars has a way better layout so uh yeah going to go with Star Wars Aerosmith versus Iron Maiden Iron Maiden definitely Aerosmith is like Kiss. It's not, I don't like it. The shots are like not very satisfying. The rules are kind of grindy. It's like just play modes, modes, modes and stuff.
    49:16
    Maiden is just something else. So, easy maiden pick. Oh, man. All right. Almost done. We got through the first round.
    49:28
    Next round, Lord of the Rings versus Batman 66. I like... Oh, man. That one's tough. Oh, good God. Oh, man. That is tough. That is so tough. I think it has... Oh, man. Why do I... Do I have to choose?
    49:54
    I can't choose. I like them both so much. I think it's got to be Lord, because the layout is more perfect. Batman has some clunkers, some weird clunkiness, and Lord is just such a good, cohesive package. Batman is good, but it's just not quite perfection like Lord of the Rings is. So Lord advances.
    50:24
    Game of Thrones versus Family Guy. I like Family Guy better than Game of Thrones. I think it's more fun. Game of Thrones is kind of like Black Knight in terms of layout where it's just shots in front of you and you kind of just have to hit them and not miss them, whereas Family Guy is more open and free-flowing and it's just kind of more fun to like pick different things to shoot at and just the gameplay itself is just more fun. So I like Family Guy over Game of Thrones. All right, next up we got Jurassic Park versus X-Men.
    51:03
    Jurassic Park wins. Honestly, they're very similar like with their layout and like the complexities of them, but Jurassic Park is just more fun. I have fun playing Jurassic Park. I don't have as much fun playing X-Men.
    51:19
    So Jurassic Park wins over X-Men. Then we have Iron Man versus Ripley's. This is crazy, but believe it or not, I actually like Ripley's better than Iron Man. I think it's a better game. I think I'd rather own a Ripley's.
    51:36
    It's just so goofy, and that challenge to get to Atlantis is like actually attainable as opposed to the iron man one of do or die multi-ball which is like impossible and not fun like you have to shoot death targets like 20 times or whatever so uh yeah ripley's more fun for me uh all right next up we got acdc versus star trek I think Star Trek wins out just because the rules you have like those medals you have like big collects that are fun the wizard modes, the multi-balls are so fun on Star Trek, I love the multi-balls on Star Trek multi-balls in ACDC are just not as much fun and I just, I think the third flipper wins it for me on Star Trek so yeah star trek moves on um what's up here we got spider-man versus simpsons man why why it be like this oh man which one's better i think i actually even though i said simpsons is my favorite game of all time that only is like in a vacuum I guess like I did end up selling my Simpsons because I played it so much so it's almost like it's too good sometimes and the games you're committed, when you play Simpsons you're in it for the long haul Spider-Man you can kind of pick up and play and it is a long player but I feel like I have more fun in Spider-Man with the shots and since they both have around the same amount of depth I think I actually like Spider-Man more just because it shoots a little better.
    53:34
    So I'm going to pick Spider-Man actually. I think Spider-Man is better than Simpsons. That's a tough one for me for sure.
    53:43
    I'm going to give it to Spider-Man. next up we got Deadpool versus Tron oh man I think I gotta go Deadpool I think there's more there there's more variety the games I think on average are more fun I think Tron can have some frustrating games I think Deadpool is just cooler with the you know the way the shots all kind of flow together the mode the sound the lights The choreography is really good.
    54:16
    Tron is kind of a one-trick pony. It's very simple. Deadpool's a little more in-depth. I think Deadpool wins.
    54:25
    Oh, boy. All right, Stern Wars versus Iron Maiden. That's easy Iron Maiden. It's just a way better game.
    54:34
    Better balance, better shots. Yeah, I think Iron Maiden's better. I like it more. All right, finally, we're in the top eight now.
    54:47
    We got Lord of the Rings versus... Family Guy, I think. Yeah. That's... Man, I have both. I own both of those games, so this is really tough.
    55:10
    But I think Lord did it better. I think Family Guy tried to be Lord of the Rings, and it got pretty close, but it's no Lord of the Rings.
    55:19
    Lord of the Rings did it first, did it best. So Lord of the Rings wins. Okay, next up we got Jurassic Park versus Ripley's Believe It or Not.
    55:34
    So this is, I think, where Ripley's ends. because Jurassic Park and Ripley's, they both are great upper flipper games. They both have cool super jackpot shots and cool little geometries to them. But Jurassic Park does it better.
    55:52
    It's more fun. I think it has more variety. Every game doesn't play out the same like it does in Ripley's. Ripley's, you know, you can start seeing the games kind of play out in the same way. So I think Jurassic Park is better. all right next up we got uh star trek versus spider-man um i think i like man they're like the same game they're like wow man i think oh that is tough they're both steve richie lyman sheets like how can i pick they're like the equal um oh my goodness i don't know which one do i like more my gut tells me Spider-Man. I think Star Trek can feel a little samey. There's just so many modes. Like, whatever,
    57:02
    18 modes and they're all just shoot the flashing lights. You know? Spider-Man, it only has five modes. So they feel like they have more meaning, I guess.
    57:15
    And you kind of use the playfield more in Spider-Man. You know, you got the goblins, the Sandman, the Venom.
    57:27
    I think Spider-Man's a little more fun, a little less monotonous, I guess, than Star Trek. So Spider-Man wins it.
    57:38
    All right, finally the bottom corner. Deadpool versus Iron Maiden. so I think Iron Maiden has to win because how well does it? I don't know I do have fun playing Deadpool but I own an Iron Maiden and I don't own a Deadpool Maiden is pretty fun I do like that game but Deadpool yeah Deadpool can get a little grindy uh Iron Maiden never feels grindy even though it has the hardest wisdom mode to get I never feel like I'm grinding anything in Iron Maiden I feel like every opportunity is a fresh like alright I can blow this mode up let's go you know and I think that right there is what gets Iron Maiden the victory over Deadpool All right, finally, top four. We got Lord of the Rings versus Spider-Man.
    58:52
    Man, it doesn't get much better than that. I think Lord, though. Lord is just so good. Like, it only has two flippers, but, man, it's just the package. The audio, the dots, and the Valinor challenge that just keeps coming back.
    59:16
    It's just so good. Yeah, Lord. Lord wins, Spider-Man. All right, and then we got Jurassic Park versus Iron Maiden? Oh, no. All right. So I think Jurassic Park wins because it's just Jurassic Park has the same I can blow this up sort of thing that Maiden does, where every opportunity is great.
    59:46
    But I think Jurassic Park's third flipper is used way better than Maiden's third flipper. And I think Maiden's fourth flipper is too clunky. I think it actually detracts from Iron Maiden.
    60:00
    So I think Jurassic Park I like more. I have more fun playing. um all right so now we're down to lord of the rings versus jurassic park oh man i think uh oh geez what is the best stern of all time oh man they're both so good i gotta i gotta think about this alright, I think I made up my decision I think it's Jurassic Park because I can actually approach Jurassic Park and be like, I'm going to play a game of this whereas Lord of the Rings, you're committed for the long haul Jurassic Park, sure it's deep it's got lots of wizard modes but you burn through those, I feel, a lot quicker than Lord of the Rings and Jurassic Park feels a lot less grindy. So, oh man, but they're both so fun. I love both games so much. I think I got to give it to Jurassic Park. I think Jurassic Park is the Stern Showdown champion for my personal biases and beliefs.
    61:19
    There you go. Fight me for it. Yeah, feel free to comment, message me, email and yeah, that's it. Let's see, is there any, if I go back and look, let's see if there's any decisions that if I took my personal biases away and I just looked at the games from like an objective as possible view, if anything would have changed. I think the only things that might have changed would have been Walking Dead would have beat Family Guy, even though I like Family Guy more and then I think Kiss probably would have beat Game of Thrones which is painful to say because I hate Kiss but I think it might be a better game than Game of Thrones I don't know, that one's tough but it doesn't matter because Walking Dead would have beat either of them and then down in the other corner I think Elvira's House of Horrors would have beat X-Men but that doesn't matter because I would have lost to Jurassic Park.
    62:25
    Stranger Things could have beat Iron Man, maybe. I don't know. No, I think Iron Man, most people would agree, is better.
    62:35
    Metallica seems to always beat Ripley's, which, again, if I look at it objectively, I guess Metallica is better than Ripley's because it has, I guess, the shots.
    62:54
    You know, Ripley's has some pretty clunky shots, as much as I love it. And Metallica has just the way the game progresses in that game and the crank it up modes. I think the crank it up modes are objectively better than anything, any modes Ripley's has going on. I still stand by my decision. I still think I have more fun playing Ripley's, but I think Metallica would probably be objectively better.
    63:22
    Let's see. Any other weird ones? Oh, I think a lot of people would have put Ghostbusters as beating Stern Wars, but that doesn't matter because it would have got beat by Iron Maiden.
    63:33
    Beatles? Sometimes. Some people would say Beatles is better than Star Trek, but I don't know how you could say that because Star Trek just has more in it. like uh and then simpsons versus a uh spider-man i mean i could see simpsons is probably objectively better because it's got more in it uh but that one i don't know if you can say which one's better because they're just so different like you can't compare them because one's flow and one's not you know so that one could go either way um yeah i think i i touched on most everything here so that's a wrap uh for this episode of do or die uh thanks for tuning in remember you can always message me or email me um do or die pinball podcast at gmail.com or just catch me on facebook and hopefully you know maybe i'll start just doing podcasts about whatever uh since there's not gonna be any tournaments in a while yeah I don't know we'll see things are moving fast changing rapidly but I guess until next time remember to do don't die alright
    65:03
    We'll see you next time.