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Final Round Pinball Podcast Ep 60: Royalty

The Pinball Network·video·1h 19m·analyzed·Sep 10, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Final Round Ep 60: TazPen recap, pricing debates, and backwards-reversed game announcements.

Summary

Jeff Teolis and Marty discuss recent pinball events including TazPen (Tasmania's first pinball expo) and the Canadian National Exhibition tournaments. They debate pricing of aftermarket mods and new games (particularly TNA 2.0 and Funhaus 2.0), discuss code updates, and critique flip frenzy tournament formats. The hosts reveal upcoming game announcements played backwards in the podcast to skirt NDA restrictions.

Key Claims

  • TazPen was Haggis Pinball's first showing at a pinball expo (aside from Brisbane Masters tournament)

    high confidence · Ryan discusses TazPen being Haggis' first expo showing as opposed to Brisbane Masters which was a tournament

  • TazPen was extremely well-organized for a first-time show with most games being DMD and solid-state machines

    high confidence · Ryan describes the venue quality, organization, machine condition, and notes that EMs couldn't pass electrical testing at the venue

  • Jeff won three of six tournaments at the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition)

    high confidence · Jeff explicitly states 'I won three of the six tournaments' at the CNE

  • CNE tournament attendance was lower than expected, partly due to COVID vaccine requirements keeping American visitors away

    high confidence · Jeff notes 'we didn't have one American show up, whereas in years past we did' and attributes it to vaccine requirements

  • Olivia Newton-John was treated as Australian royalty and her death was compared to Princess Diana by some

    medium confidence · Ryan discusses ONJ's death and notes 'people were saying it was kind of like Princess Diana dying for Australia'

  • Funhaus 2.0 code update places too much emphasis on the left ramp compared to the original

    medium confidence · Jeff criticizes Funhaus 2.0 saying 'Too much emphasis on the left ramp. Yeah, where there was really no emphasis on the left ramp before'

  • Fathom Revisited and Keltz machines were displayed at TazPen with good community response

    high confidence · Ryan states 'We had a Keltz and we had a Fathom Revisited there. And, yeah, great response from people'

  • Poorly-organized flip frenzy tournaments (such as one with 48 people on 10 machines) result in 28 people waiting in queue

    high confidence · Jeff describes a specific flip frenzy with '48 people, 10 machines' resulting in '28 people in queue' and 'six to seven games' played in three hours

Notable Quotes

  • “We're at a place known as the CNE, the Canadian National Exhibition... it's one of the largest, think of a World Fair.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~21:00 — Describes the scale and importance of the CNE tournament venue in Canada

  • “Olivia Newton-John... she is like Australian royalty... it was really devastating. People were saying it was kind of like Princess Diana dying for Australia.”

    Ryan @ ~26:00 — Captures the cultural impact of ONJ's death in Australia

  • “I loved it. Absolutely loved it... I'd pick the new code. Yeah, sure. That's why you're on that part of the world.”

    Ryan (on Funhaus 2.0) @ ~52:00 — Contrasts differing opinions on code updates—Ryan prefers new content, Jeff prefers original

  • “I'd say a big bulk of the flip frenzies that are on are absolute dog shit. You heard me say it.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~1:11:00 — Strong criticism of poorly-executed flip frenzy tournament formats

  • “48 people, 10 machines. What does that mean? You have 28 people in queue. Average games played in three hours, six to seven games. That is a stupid stupid format.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~1:12:00 — Specific example of flip frenzy miscalculation creating poor player experience

  • “If you want to get serious, do a card format. Do a freaking pump and dump. Do those match play... If you just want to have a fun tournament where randomly some people can win, then do a flip frenzy. Stop taking it so seriously.”

    Ryan @ ~1:17:00 — Defends flip frenzy format as casual fun versus serious tournament structure

  • “For the first time ever, we're going to reveal the next game with a twist. We're going to record it, reverse it. It's going to be played backwards... That way we are legally bound to our NDA.”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~1:02:00 — Novel NDA workaround for revealing upcoming games

  • “People are going to make money. People are doing this to make money... It's not a charity.”

Entities

Jeff TeolispersonRyanpersonHaggis PinballcompanyTazPeneventTassie Pinball MafiaorganizationCanadian National Exhibition (CNE)eventOlivia Newton-JohnpersonFunhaus 2.0gameFathom Revisitedgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Aftermarket mod and topper pricing justified by manufacturers as necessity for profitability; community perception of high prices reflects business model sustainability concerns

    medium · Ryan: 'if it's not pricey, it won't be done' and 'people are going to make money... It's not a charity'

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball expanding expo presence; first showing at traditional pinball expo after previously appearing at tournaments only

    high · Ryan: 'this was really Haggis' first showing at a pinball expo, if you will, as opposed to Brisbane Masters, which was a tournament'

  • ?

    event_signal: TazPen positioned as first of annual pinball shows in Tasmania; expected to grow in subsequent years with positive groundwork established

    high · Ryan: 'It definitely is [going to be annual]' and notes 'there were some people from around the country that all flew down for the event'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Flip frenzy tournament format controversial; complaints center on organizer execution (queue management) rather than inherent format issues

    high · Jeff criticizes specific implementation with '48 people, 10 machines' leading to 28 in queue; Ryan defends format itself as 'fun' when properly capped

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Funhaus 2.0 code criticized for over-emphasizing left ramp compared to original design; hosts have contrasting opinions on merit

    medium · Jeff: 'Too much emphasis on the left ramp. Yeah, where there was really no emphasis on the left ramp before' vs. Ryan defending design flexibility

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.237

0:00
Hello, hello, hello. Test, test, testicles. Got it. Okay, remember to pretend like you like the listeners.
0:10
Give a shit about pinball and fake friendship with you. Okay, got it. I'm ready to go. You? The usual. Let's fucking do this.
0:20
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. it's player versus player and player versus machine welcome to the final round Hey, how you doing, besties? We're shaking!
1:06
So just before we recorded and you said, act like we love our listeners. Not sure that was very convincing. I might play that too. Hey Marty, what's up? How you doing? Welcome everybody to Final Round People Podcast This is episode 60 Now considering you're a lot closer to 60 than I am I mean that's quite a big milestone, isn't it? Sure Who cares? I mean out of those 60, how many were good shows? Five? Oh, you're being very generous But apologies again We said we were going to be back in a fortnight It's fine I think a month. Ah, fuck it. Who cares? Who's paying us?
1:50

Ryan (on pricing) @ ~46:00 — Defends manufacturer and modder pricing strategy as legitimate business practice

Keltzgame
TNA 2.0game
Damienperson
Patricioperson
Justinperson
Mark Silkperson
Jerry Powerperson
Joe Lemireperson
Joel LeMaireperson
IFPAorganization
Spooky Pinballcompany
  • ?

    event_signal: TazPen inaugural pinball show in Tasmania was well-organized despite being first event; strong attendance and positive machine quality reception

    high · Ryan describes venue as 'extremely well-run', 'extremely well attended', with machines in 'fantastic condition' and good community engagement

  • $

    market_signal: CNE tournament attendance affected by post-COVID travel patterns; loss of American players due to Canadian vaccine requirements

    high · Jeff: 'we didn't have one American show up, whereas in years past we did. So maybe next year will be a little bit different'

  • $

    market_signal: Community resistance to TNA 2.0 pricing at $9,000 perceived as high; broader concern about value-for-money on premium machines

    medium · Ryan notes 'the majority of feedback that I've seen is people saying not at that price' regarding TNA 2.0

  • ?

    product_strategy: Funhaus 2.0 code update provides new gameplay option alongside original code; playable through code switching mechanism

    high · Ryan describes switchable code system: 'flip right for the new code, flip left for the old code'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: IFPA voted to nerf flip frenzy format in 2023 due to perceived problems with execution and variance in games played

    high · Jeff: 'the IFPA brass that voted against it to nerf it in 2023' regarding flip frenzy format changes

    • Well, considering we don't have any sponsors anymore, because they've all dropped us off. I just got sick of writing them. I'm tired. We don't have guests, because it requires scheduling and meeting their schedules. Listen, it's a Friday night. It's like midnight my time. I just got back from a wicked dinner. It's a Saturday afternoon for you. You get what you fucking get. I know. I can smell your garlic breath from here. Massive garlic. So good. That's all right. Anne had it too, so we're lopting at each other's. Yeah. Well, how are you, brother? I am. I'm really good. I mean, that month has gone very, very quickly. A lot has happened. We've got a lot to talk about. Shall we get on with it? Okay. No banter? Fuck it. Let's do it. Well, it's true. We've been busy. I mean, when we tried to schedule, I think I had one weekend available, and you were like, nope, can't do it. I'm out of show. What show are we at? I was at TazPen, I believe. Tell me about Tasman. I know nothing about it. Well, do you know what Tasmania is? Yes, I do. Okay. Well, a lot of people don't. Tasmania is an island that's part of Australia that's south of Melbourne. So Melbourne's probably the closest capital city really to Tasmania. There are two main, probably three if you count Devonport, but two main cities in Tasmania, the capital being Hobart, the other one being Launceston. And so there's a group of pinball enthusiast down there called the Tassie Pinball Mafia, and they decided to put on their first pinball show. They were meant to do one, I think, before COVID hit, but obviously Ian had other ideas. So, yeah, no, fucking ruining pinball for everybody. Yeah. So they put on their first show, and this was really Haggis' first showing at a pinball expo, if you will, as opposed to Brisbane Masters, which was a tournament. And I've got to tell you this, for the first show they've ever put on, this was just fantastic. It was such a really well-run show. They obviously had a lot of time to prepare. They had some consulting from some people that run Pinfest up in Newcastle, which is coming in a couple of weeks. So they had a lot of lessons to learn. And one of the organizers, a guy called Justin, he was up the night before worrying that nobody was going to turn up. And it was just extremely well attended, but just extremely well organized. When you walked into the event, which was the Australian Italian Club, you just had a row of people greeting you, telling you what needed to be done, giving you your wristband for the day, etc. And the machines were in fantastic condition. What was really interesting about this show, the most recent Stern game that was there was Game of Thrones. The most recent game they had a Rick and Morty. But the majority of the games were DMD and solid state games. They were meant to have a row of EMs, but unfortunately, they didn't pass the test when they got tagged and tested. Seriously? Yeah, really. so just the particular venue didn't have the power requirements for it. But the majority of the games were just solid-state and EMs. And what that meant was people were just gravitating to all the different games. There was never like one or two or three games that just had a line of 10, 15 people, you know what I mean? Yep. So it was good to just see all these games in fantastic condition from the older eras instead of just being Stearns and JJP and all the other modern games. Sounds like a great first show. I mean, that's tough to do. I can see why Justin was sweating. Will people show up? I'm sure they had some pre-sales, but still, you never know when you put one of these things on, but sounds like it's going to be an annual thing. Yeah, no, it definitely is. And there were some people from around the country that all flew down for the event, and I think it's only going to get bigger next year as well. There is a funny story I need to tell you about, though. Finally. Yeah, I know. Right, here we go. the humorous, well, I don't know whether it's going to be that funny, but we had an Airbnb for the night. So it was me, Damien and Patricio. And, you know, the event ended pretty late. So we got to this location, this Airbnb at just after midnight. It was raining. It was freezing cold because Tasmania is very cold. We looked at the instructions for the Airbnb. It was, you know, it's keyless entry. Here's the number pad, put the number in, open the door and in you go, which we did opened up the door this fantastic waft of warm air just came to us and went gee that's nice turn the light on two people in bed got up going what the fuck are you doing oh no oh my we entered the wrong place but the code worked the code worked we're just the film crew Go on, continue. Yes, please, please. Pay no attention. Could probably get a better angle from over here if you could try that again. You can lift your right ass cheek just a little bit. I want to get a little bit of genitalia. Thank you very much. We're good. The funny thing was, though, after this happened, Damien then had to ring his wife, Georgia, to find out what's happened with our arrangements.
    7:23
    They could not stop laughing. It's awesome. It's not. I was there going, guys, it's past midnight. It's cold. It's raining. We've got no accommodation. Can you stop laughing? I kind of found it funny the next morning, but they just found it hilarious. We literally disturbed people in bed. So in certain parts of the United States, if you do that, you might get shot. That's – Patricio said that because Patricio comes from Argentina. He was like, if this was anywhere else in the world, you would have a gun in your face, possibly a bullet in your chest. I went, yeah, fair enough. We sort of said, oh, shit, sorry, guys, our mistake. And they went, yeah, no worries, bro. And that was it. I always wonder what Airbnb meant. I guess B&B is boobs and balls. What is it?
    8:11
    You got it. You paid your money. Here you go. I now know what it stands for. I didn't know what that meant. Well, that's pretty funny. That's awesome. And, again, congrats on the TASPEN show. I assume Haggis did very well. I mean, we're hearing good feedback. We're seeing more and more of your machines out there. You've got to be pretty happy. Yeah, very happy. So we had a Keltz and we had a Fathom Revisited there. And, yeah, great response from people. And what was kind of really cool was, again, this was a pinball show. So rather than it being people focused on a tournament, people were focused on talking. Yeah. And we had a lot of conversations. And just meeting people that had been following the Hager story since Damien's first video, that was, you know, kind of cool. Very good. Congrats. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For yours truly, the last couple of weeks, I've been at a place known as the CNE, the Canadian National Exhibition. The first time it's run in two years because of Ian, COVID. And so it's one of the largest, think of a World Fair. I mean, it's just got tons and tons of rides and food buildings and exhibitions and buildings with sales. Well, we've run pinball tournaments there in the past. So we did so again for the last two weekends. That's why you and I couldn't get together because I had been there for 12 hours a day plus another two hours of driving for six days on weekends and a lot of fun. Still not the numbers we wanted. Again, I think COVID has a big factor. I mean, we're just not getting the tourism in Canada because we require vaccines to come into our country if you're not Canadian. So that's keeping a lot of people from the border. We didn't have one American show up, whereas in years past we did. So maybe next year will be a little bit different. but I think we did a good job after being away for a while. So that was fun. And yeah, fuck yes. Yes, Marty, I won three of the six tournaments. I know you want to know. Look, I said it. We're done. Move on. So it was good in that sense. And it's been keeping me busy. This is kind of the first free weekend I've had in a while because it gets a lot busier over the next little while. And I'm sure we'll get into that. You and I have not fucking talked since Olivia Newton-John passed away. What was it like in your car? You know, I'm not even trying to be funny here. You know I love Olivia Newton-John. I know you do. You and I, before we were podcasting, were talking about Olivia and just, oh. Tell me about it. I mean, what do they do in the country? So, yeah, look, she is, I guess national treasure is the word. Yeah. But, yeah, she is like Australian royalty. It was really devastating. You know, my partner works for Olivia Newton-John, so it was a big shock to them at work. It was a big deal. I mean, I don't know whether it's this, but people were saying it was kind of like Princess Diana dying for Australia. And it kind of was. Out of nowhere. It was a big, big deal. so yeah i guess because she's been battling cancer for such a long time it kind of wasn't so out of the blue but i just i always thought that she would live forever i just thought that she would just be one of these people that's constantly battling cancer and you know staving it off just surviving but unfortunately it got the best of her in the end so sad uh and young too 73 that's that's nothing and uh a treasure not only in your country but around the world and it was nice to see the tributes for so uh yeah that's that's too bad but uh it did kind of set us back it did and i tell you that i i logged into a streaming service here in australia it's called stan i don't i think it's only a an australian thing and you know when you when you log into those streaming services and a banner comes up with like a movie or a show that they're trying to promote yeah i'll tell you what came up xanadu xanadu that's the one so so i decided to watch xanadu which i had not watched since it came out and it's so good it's awesome i know the last 20 minutes oh fantastic right that whole skating scene but even before then i guess probably at the time, and I've then sort of done all these deep dives as to why it failed as a movie. And I could probably understand at the time why. It got quite bloated and quite confusing. It didn't really know what it was. But if you look at it as this, it is, for the most part, a series of music clips for ELO songs, some of them sung by Olivia. Yeah. The Tube. And the Tube, yes. see i don't know who the tubes are but they're the one that they do my favorite scene where you've got the 80s rock band and the like 40s 50s sort of jazzy kind of numbers where it all combines the stages combined at the end oh you got gene kelly on roller skates gene kelly when he's doing that yeah oh guys i just watched it i mean it's it's trash but it's trash olivia it just really good trash flies off the screen i mean just just a delight and oh it's so good so i'm my first crush yeah yeah she's awesome so awesome okay she's gone yep there you go it's sad to see her go what else has happened oh i didn't tell you that my streak is over do you know what i'm talking about the number of days with your fly open fucking blew it at the cne of all places Did I get it right? Yeah.
    13:56
    Now, I caught it early on. I mean, there might have been an hour where I was given a sneak peek, but I caught it as I was going to the washroom. I'm like, oh, I'm already prepared to go.
    14:09
    Damn it. I was doing really well. I had about a month straight. I don't know if I said this before, but every day I leave the house. I used to work in London, Ontario, which is about an hour and a half away from me. So that's a long drive. If you forget something, you're fucked because you don't have it for the day. So every morning I would say the same thing. I'd say iPhone eyeglasses because sometimes I'd go without my freaking phone or my glasses. I can't see. I'd say watch wallet to make sure. And I don't wear a watch anymore, but when I worked there, I did. So, okay, I got my wallet. And I would say computer keys. So watch wallet, iPhone eyeglasses, computer keys. I would say those six things. I'd never forget anything. I got to add fly to that now. Yeah, seven things. That's a lot to remember at your age. Yes, too much. Something's got to give. I guess the watch.
    14:54
    But there was, yeah. Anyway. There was another exhibition, and it was, well, it wasn't. So, overall, the CNE PC was a good tournament run? Everything was great. It was run really well. I mean, we had some machines from, you've met Jerry Power, or you know of Jerry Power from Player One. I know Ryan's met him. I do, yeah. And, you know, we had the Maple Pinball, bring some stuff out, the Durham League. So we had enough pinball machines, a mix of classics and new, and a lot of free play games that Jerry provided. So you could play Toy Story 4 for free. You could play Cactus Canyon. You could play Guns of Roses, the new Stern ones. Once our tournaments were done, we moved Rush and Godzilla and Zeppelin and Beatles and all these kind of things out there. So that was kind of fun. We were thinking about putting Beatles, funny enough, in the classics if I could make it so that every time you press start, you would play the Sea Witch Code. Right. But you have to manually do it, or we couldn't figure it out, so we kept it in the main bank. But I would have loved to play Beatles as Sea Witch. No multi-ball, you know, hit the drop targets. Yeah. What do you think of that? I mean, that's kind of what Haggis does, right? What do I think about a new game that's got original code in it as well as new code?
    16:07
    Yeah. Do you know what? At TazPen, I got to play Funhaus 2.0. and I also found that quite a challenge to switch code. So we've got to infathom that it's literally on the ape and when you go to start the game, flip right for the new code, flip left for the old code, and you can actually change that in the settings to lock in one of those codes if you want to. Let's say you're on location and you only want new code or old code. So, yeah, it needs to be easy, I guess. Yeah. You went, oh, when I mentioned Funhaus 2.0. What are your thoughts? Don't like it. Sorry, I like the attempt. I like the effort. I do. No. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Too much emphasis on the left ramp. Yeah, where there was really no emphasis on the left ramp before. Sure. No, I didn't feel that. I felt like it was allowing me to play the layout as opposed to just doing the one thing. I admire the effort. I like that it's different, and it is different. That's the great thing about it. Sure, it's totally different. The animations are great. Mark Silk, I think, is the voice of Rudy. He does a good job. So that's all fun. But if I have to say, which version do I want to play? I can only pick one. I'm picking the original. No, I'd pick the new code. Yeah, sure. That's why you're on that part of the world. Yeah, but I also think that it's because I've played the old code. I've played it. I don't need to play it again. I've played it. If it's in a tournament, sure, you have to play it. But if I'm going up to a machine where there's a code that I've played over and over again, I want to try something new. So I liked it. But even so, if you play the old code, it's still got the screen in the play field that's got the different modes that you get in the mirror or whatever it is. And it's also got the new screen in the back. It's kind of cool just having that. But here's the thing. You've now got choice. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty expensive. I don't know how much it costs. Pretty pricey. Yeah, I remember. I mean, you've got to pay for stuff like that. I get that. And it's a different screen, different animations, different code. I get all that. I mean, it is what it is. I like the effort. I don't want to shit on it because I really do like the effort. I think that's a neat... I wasn't a huge Funhaus fan to begin with anyway. Same. So... Same. I was hoping it would be a little more, and it just wasn't. Yeah. The thing I think this one suffers from is not having an auto plunge. So I think when you get into multi-ball, you get balls in the shooter lane. Yeah. Just going back to price. Uh-oh. Bubble burst alert. Beep, beep, beep.
    18:49
    Are we there yet? I'm counting down. That's why we're not doing podcasts. I'm waiting for the bubble to burst. I'm like, we're back. no all i was going to say was that um i think that there's a lot of discussions about value for money okay let's let's talk about tna 2.0 because this also goes to i'm going to extend a bit further it goes to toy story because everyone's saying oh there's no toys so therefore where's where's the the value but then you also look at you know toppers that come out that cost thousands of dollars. I've never understood the value of that. Sorry, Zach, don't kick us off. I don't get it. This is where I'm trying to position this because at the end of the day, people are going to make money People are doing this to make money So if you putting out a mod and it costs you 20 bucks why would you sell it for and make when you can sell it for and make a shitload of money which therefore makes it worth your while? I think that people are sort of really undervaluing or underappreciating people's need to do these. It's not a charity. They're not doing things so you can just have a little trinket on your game. People are doing this because they want to make money. So, when you've got toppers that cost $2,000, sure, there might be $1,000 of profit in that topper, but that's making somebody have a living out of doing this as opposed to just doing it as a hobby and then sort of not being able to meet schedules, etc. That's kind of my point I wanted to make about that because that comes down to Funhaus 2.0 and also Brighter Pinbot was also quite pricey as well. If it's not pricey, it won't be done, I guess. Sure. And another factor, looking at it another way, the price is what someone's willing to pay for it. So you can't bitch. Whether you're selling a used machine, if somebody's willing to pay X amount of dollars, then that's what the price is. I'm in sales. And let me say that with my normal voice as opposed to my balls being pinched. You're not saying whether you're good at it or not, but you're in it. Let me say this. Yeah, you're in comedy. Sure. Well, there's that too. I'm in sales. And when you're first in sales and you're trying to get the sale, you're like, please say yes, please say yes, please say yes. Now, I actually don't like when someone says yes. Why? You don't like being successful? No, because I've left money on the table. I didn't ask for enough. Do you understand what I'm saying? So if I say yes, oh, fuck, I probably could have pushed that a little more. That's the name of the game. So why are companies any different? Okay, let's move the needle a little bit. So TNA is a little more pricey. If you wanted it before, you should have bought it before. They've got this new price. If I owned a TNA, I'd be feeling pretty good that this new price has just jacked it up. That means my machine is now worth a lot more. And they're adding things to it as well. I mean, it is what it is. It's the way inflation is all across everywhere in the world. So why would you expect it to be what you paid for many years ago? Well, take inflation as part of it, whatever small percentage inflation is per year. But being in the biz, I know how much suppliers have jacked up their prices significantly.
    22:19
    Yeah. So that's just, again, spooky looking at saying, well, in order for this to be worth our while, this is what we've got to do. Because the reason I'm saying that is I think the majority of feedback that I've seen is people saying not at that price. Are you just setting us up for a haggis price increases? Is that why you're doing this diatribe? No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I guess I'm just trying to be some sort of voice of reason in the middle that sort of says, yeah, I get it. I get that $9,000 for a T&A is quite pricey considering what comes in and people are saying, oh, the butter cabinet should be part of that, et cetera. But I guess the point I'm trying to make with that, and I also see a lot of negative feedback when people come out with toppers or with mods that go on games, people are always saying that's too expensive. Well, I guess I'm saying, I know that the cost of these things to make is a lot less, but people are going to make a cut from it. Otherwise, why would they do it? It's not a charity. I get it. That's fine. And people look at those toppers because they're limited edition, so there's a value in that. I always look at things from a player standpoint, right? I have an LE machine, but I didn't buy a topper. So is my LE incomplete? No. The topper did nothing to the game itself. So I'm saying, eh. Yeah. It's an optional extra. Yeah, for sure. Optional. Now, before we get into more things here, I mean, a lot of the reason people listen to Final Round is because we do have the scoop. You're inside. I'm inside. We do know a lot. And for the first time ever, we're going to reveal the next game with a twist. We're going to record it, reverse it. It's going to be played backwards. If you want to hear what the next game is going to be, you'll have to play this podcast backwards. So you've got to do a little bit of homework. That way we are legally bound to our NDA for breaking anything because we didn't say it. It's just so funny that it goes backwards. So give us about 30 seconds. here you can fast forward or you can rewind and listen but here are the next few games from pinball companies go
    24:48
    Well, there you go. For those sleuths that played that backwards, you got a little bit of dirt there. Maybe you can pass it on to your friends and maybe knock on the doors of your distributors. Hey, get me in line for one of those machines. So you're welcome. What else is happening? Okay, what else is happening? Fly's been down. Oh, well, we'll save it for the end. I didn't actually put this in my notes to you. I'm going to do something that has not been done in months on this show. Talk about something interesting? I can't promise that. Tell a joke? Oh, zinger. I'm going to shit on a certain format known as a flip frenzy. What?
    25:36
    I'm going to make fun of a flip frenzy for you. Okay, go. I realize why so many people want these flip frenzies to end. And when I say so many people, I mean the IFPA brass that voted against it to nerf it in 2023. I know why. Why? Because I would say a big bulk of the flip frenzies that are on are absolute dog shit. You heard me say it. I said it. Okay. Tell me why. Somebody sent me a thing. I get quite a few people sending me stuff about like, you're right, those flip frenzies are great. And I ask how they're playing them. And I said, okay, that is a good one. And then I'll get, conversely, someone say, Flip Frenzy is stupid. Here's what happened at ours. Here's what happened at a Flip Frenzy. And I don't want to say where it is because there are a lot of people that were there. And you and I know quite a few of them. I don't want to embarrass them. But you ran a shitty Flip Frenzy. All right? Here's what happened. 48 people, 10 machines. What does that mean? You have 28 people in queue. Average games played in three hours, six to seven games. that is a stupid stupid format it's not a stupid format it's the way they the way they structured it it was no you've got to cap it they it's usually about you know two 2.2 people per machine that there it is i would even say two people per machine just to be safe you're definitely fine with that yeah because you want a couple little variety and you want you want about 10 in the queue not 28 out of 48 people in the queue ridiculous yeah no wonder people hate flip frenzies like that no but that's not a problem with the format that's just that's just an oversight so then why don't they say all right a flip frenzy has to be two people per machine maximum you have to cap it at that you have to have 20 in the playoffs why don't they do that why don't they fix the thing oh i guess i've been banging that drum before fix it not fuck it up get rid of the shitty ones because those are shitty ones insist on a playoff insist on win-loss differential not this willy nearly fucking 28 people in queue when there's only 48. Give me a break. And I'm sure the 10 games are long players anyway. Look, oh my God. You and your fucking flip frenzy. No one gives a shit. Bullshit. You're wrong. No, no, no, no, no. I think what you're doing is you're mistaking flip frenzies for being a proper tournament. They're not. They're meant to just be fun. It's match play, dude.
    28:03
    Yes, it can be fun. Fun. The purpose is to have fun and to introduce new people to pinball. If you want to get serious, do a card format. Do a freaking pump and dump. Do those match play. Do all that kind of stuff if you want to get serious. If you just want to have a fun tournament where randomly some people can win, then do a flip frenzy. Stop taking it so seriously. So conversely, you're saying pinball tournaments are not fun. No, I'm saying that. No, I'm not saying that. They're different horses for different courses. But the flip frenzy, stop taking it so seriously. It's just meant to be a bit of fun. come on lighten up a bit it's killing a lot of people's regular weekly tournaments yeah but don't go i get that but uh people like don't go the problem with the frenzies is you've got one person playing say 15 games you got another person playing 25 that variance is the big problem listen i'm not the guy to do it but there's somebody who can figure out code and figure this out to say okay when you're at 15 games you're done playing your flip frenzy so that the other people can get their 15 games in that would be 100 tgp by the way because everyone played the equal amount of games. That's the problem with the flip frenzy is you've got such a wide range. And then people worried about, oh, am I tanking? Am I giving up? First of all, giving up, by the way, conceding, is that, I'm going to ask you, Marty, you've once dabbled in tournaments before, is conceding legal or illegal in the IFPA?
    29:22
    Think about what you say. Well, it's legal, isn't it? I know the answer. I'm asking you. Well, I think it's legal. People hate flip frenzies because people concede. Yeah. Well, people concede in normal tournaments as well. Really? Like in the IFPA 17 when Keith did to Escher and then the next game when Escher did it to Eric Stone on game 2 on F14 Tomcat, Escher didn't get thrown out of the tournament? You're allowed to fucking concede when you think you're beaten. Sure. So throw that argument out. Because people are saying flip parentheses are stupid because people concede. So what? Let me just make a point if I can. I'd rather you not go ahead. This might be new for you to hear this, but flip frenzies are just fun. Fucking get over it. You know what's not fun? Waiting in queue and waiting in queue. Yeah, but again, as I said, that's not the format's problem. That's the organizers. And that's just probably you can fix it by capping the amount of people that can go in the tournament. They fixed pin golf because pin golf used to be the willy-nilly. You'd fucking play at 10 in the morning and you'd play on machines at work. You'd be in the group that plays at 11 at night and oh, fuck, the flipper can't get up the ramp. Sorry. No, look. You know my... They fixed it by putting a playoff in. Well, that didn't fix it when I played pin golf before... Pin golf should be gone. Remember that one? Sorry to everyone in Maine who does Pin Master. Sorry, Joel LeMaire. I know he's a good buddy and friend of both of ours, but... Fucking get rid of pin golf. Yeah. Well, as you know, I went to that pin golf before Pinberg. And it wrecked Pinberg. You were like... And we had like an hour to go, and we still had three games to play. Not happening. So Joe Lemire, our good friend, actually went up to the tournament organizers and said, strike us off. We don't want our results on this at all because it'll impact our… Oh, you legal cheaters, you bastards. If you played six holes, it's supposed to count if you play half. I don't know what you want. I don't even know whether we got that far in. I actually don't know whether we got that far in. It was just… So this is, again, this is one of these things where you've got to try and predict how many people are going to go into a tournament to make it an enjoyable experience. Boy, that's brilliant foresight to be able to figure out, I've got this much time to play a game. I have no idea. Oh, the venue closes. We've got to leave. No, pin golf is hard, I know. But flip frenzy is easy. You've got three hours to play. the only thing you've got to have as a variable is the number of people playing in that tournament versus how many machines you've got to play ah you know if roger sharp was still running the ifpa oh he would be a voice of reason good old roger is that a good segue here we go it's pretty good oh what's next on the list oh roger sharp oh hey fucking tight been away for a month i still got smooth you really do oh you're fucking so yes roger sharp so this movie is called the man pinball the man who saved the game so we've actually now got a date so it's actually going to be premiering at the hampton international film festival wow i don't know the actual date of when it's airing oh i do because i'm going are you yes roger gave me an invite i'm going oh i didn't get my invite roger but listen i want to ask i was gonna ask you off air you fucking dick I was gonna say you're are you coming to Expo because if you are come a week early and come to the Hamptons with me and Ann okay sure maybe anyway yes it'll be at the Hampton that's one of several film festivals that movie will be at but that's the first time that's the first time it'll be premiered in front of an audience so that's very exciting I hope it's good I think it will be look what I mean is I hope it's good outside the pinball community we're gonna fucking lap it up it could be an absolute steamer and And we're going to fucking love it, right? Because, oh, my God, it's Roger Sharp, the mustache that saved pinball, right? So we're going to enjoy it regardless. But I wonder if people outside of the pinball are going to – is it going to transcend the pinball community and people are going to see it as a cool movie regardless? See, now, I thought the other way around. I thought the general public will love it and the pinball nerds will be like, oh, that's not quite right. Roger said this. and they'll be picking apart that kind of bullshit. Wait a second. That score shouldn't have doubled. That shouldn't have been 100 points. That's the kind of shit pinball nerds will do, right? Brian C will be like, that bell doesn't make that noise. It's a fucking chime. That's bullshit. Things like that, right? So I think it'll be the other way around. But, I mean, as far as the cast and stuff, Mike Faced, who plays young Roger, he was in West Side Story, directed by Steven Spielberg, was up for a BAFTA award. I mean, they've got some good chops. I'm sorry I can't remember off the top of my head who plays Ellen, the young Ellen, but the guy who plays an older Roger Sharp. Did you watch Better Call Saul? Crystal Reid. Is that who you're talking about? Crystal Reid is the woman, yes, who plays Ellen. Yeah. Okay. Yep. She's got a good IMDB, I guess that's what it is, IMDB. Yep. She's quite a good background as well. The person who plays an older Roger Sharp was in Better Call Saul. He's the one who was Kim Wexler's boss after she left Hamlin. So I mean, he's been in a bunch of things. And I've heard him speak as Roger. He's got the cadence. He's got – Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He said five words in four minutes. He is Roger Sharp. Yep. I think there was – was there a trailer? I think that's where – If you go to the website – yeah. And as soon as they started talking, I'm like, oh, hang on. He's got it. You have nailed the voice. Yeah, it's the cadence and the enunciation. Just got it. Well, Roger actually, he's one of the executive producers of the show, obviously, of the movie. When they were casting, he specifically wanted that actor. So, pretty exciting. So, yeah, I think it'll be great. Again, October 7th to 9th in the Hamptons, New York. Find something for me to do? What can we do in New York that weekend? There's always stuff to do. Anyway. There's always stuff to do. So, yeah, today is, what, Friday the 3rd. I got invited yesterday. So, I'm pretty excited. I told Anne, I go, we're going to the Hamptons. Oh, okay. So if you got invited yesterday, I should at least get my invite over the weekend. Okay, that's cool. Thanks, Roger. But speaking of pinball movies, not the best segue, but there is actually a documentary coming up. It's an Australian documentary. It's called Still Standing. And it's actually about the pinball and arcade culture in Australia. And it's done by a guy called Brad Gilbertson. so you can actually look up there's some trailers it looks really well done you may or may not see me in it oh okay so yeah look he's talking to collectors to operators to people in the biz um but yeah just still standing documentary look it up just google it and um yeah you'll see it so i get to go to a film festival you're actually in a film so it's all even my friend do you think that's even do you think that's going to make up for not being invited by roger sharp okay he sent me a thing ask your buddy morty and i said oh i said i said oh he didn't he said ask your buddy ryan c well there was that too yeah um anyway that's cool bottom line what are you doing a little song and dance what do we got here no they're just sort of going through the factory so you can see me doing some vinyl preparation. Okay, nice. Decals. But look, forget about me. I often do. Go on. Do you, though? Well, you did this month.
    37:09
    Look, any pinball in the public eye, I think, is a good thing. And particularly when it's, oh, God, I'll bring this up. The documentary special when lit, right? Documentary, movie, whatever it is, divides the pinball community because some people think it's cool. Some people think they're taking the piss. I'm on the side of they're taking the piss, but I still enjoy it. So what I'm hoping is that I just like it when these movies, documentaries, whatever they are, are in the public eye, but they're actually doing a respectful view of the community in the scene as opposed to taking the piss. That's what I want to say. I'm sure Pinball, the Roger Sharp movie, will be just that. It'll be... I mean, they're doing obviously a lot more of the story to it so how he met ellen a single mom with seth and how the their bond grew and has over the years but it certainly leads up to the big uh big event in new york when he proved it was a game of skill but yeah there's a lot more in it i'm extremely excited to see it and uh another i mean sorry i'll i will check out still standing for sure but uh glad to see emoto has got uh her little kickstarter going for her project because she's such a great filmmaker and I know Jen Rupert is helping out so that'll be neat to see. Wizards World I think is a big sponsor of that so that'll be fun to watch. Yeah, again, just more of these the better so it becomes normalized in society. Yeah, you know what's going to happen because of our age? Pinball is going to, I don't think it'll ever catch up to video games, but it's going to be just underneath eSports and all that kind of fun stuff and we're going to be too old and we're going to be out of it and we're like, where the fuck was that when we were around? Yeah, damn it. I know. You know what is big? Holy shit. I saw this at the C&E. I knew about it. I've never seen it live. I've had friends that are big into it and were big into it. Magic the Gathering.
    39:03
    Yeah. That giggle is well-placed. Let me just say that because these people, I saw a bunch of guys that were from, and I'm not trying to shit on them. They were from Rochester, New York. All right. So we're talking like Bruce Nightingale kind of people, right? You know what I mean? So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway they had these jerseys like these really expensive football jerseys with their names on the back or their nicknames on the back And they playing for some sort of world championship Like this was the regional event they were going on And I was kind of fascinated because I like that kind of organization I think any kind of subculture is pretty cool as long as you're having fun, not hurting anyone. And this is a big thing. I've certainly heard about it. I saw the stand next door where people were buying cards for like big, big bucks. And I'm like, fuck, what am I missing here? I mean, this must be kind of neat. so i went up to one person who um i don't know if triumph the insult comic dog was around this guy would have taken a beating let me just say that anyway i went up to this guy and i said sorry forgive my ignorance i'm just over here at the pinball thing right next door what are you playing and he looked at me like like i wasn't on fucking middle earth or something like he just looked at me like i was the dumbest guy alive he wouldn't even answer me like he rolled his eyes and just fucking kept going i'm like i'm just trying to engage you're sitting across from me for the pinball event we're here for a whole weekend so when i when i'm here saying look i hope we can have things that normalize pinball in society he's not helping magic the gathering being normalized yeah yeah i apologize for taking away from your fucking sixth twinkie in the last hour but answer the question these fucking guys came in with these coolers right and first of all i didn't know they could bring coolers in because they sell food there this guy had a cooler and apparently you are allowed to bring food in as long as it's not fruits and vegetables because it was fucking chips it was cookies it was pop it was oh my god and uh anyway so i'm not shitting on magic the gathering it wasn't a good representation of the game i will just say that and i'm sure pinball we have that too right from from from one nerdy subculture exactly we're the king of the nerds we but we can look down our nose at the other subcultures and this is the point i want to make and i know people that play magic the gathering yes you are awesome people this is not about you reading about these greg pavarelli those yeah yeah yeah guys so so we have you know packs right so packs yeah yeah it's a big thing so they have that in australia and so the magic the gathering and all those other sort of card games or collectible card games, whatever you call them. The point I'm going to make, this is going to be quite offensive to those people, but you know how we often talk about the hygiene of pinball players? And lack of? We smell of roses compared to people that play Magic the Gathering. There you go. Speed Stick was not sponsoring the Magic the Gathering. Fucking Axe Body Spray was nowhere to be found. Or Lynx. Axe is Lynx in Australia. I wanted to go back to grade nine to find some Drakkar. Oh, my God. Fucking slashing on some of these players. Oh, yeah. I thought I was fucking king shit when I could afford Draganois. Do you wear cologne at all?
    42:14
    Yes. Not always, though. No, not always. Not to the factory, but outside I do. I am known for my scent. And I'm not talking crop dusting. Well, that's another story. But yeah.
    42:26
    Yeah. Anne even commented on that. She loves how you smell. Yep. Le Labo is the brand. Or you're giving up your secret. Yep. The Larbo, another 13 is the particular scent. So if you want to smell as awesome as I do, and I'm telling you now, particularly in America, I used to go and visit people. And you know when I used to go over to Utah, people, strangers used to come up to me and go, what is it that you're wearing? It's amazing. I'm like, well, I know. And it's this, but you can't afford it. Yeah. The fucking people come up to me and said, you just had KFC, didn't you? Oh, the Colonel. God bless you. Anyway, I have an Ask Marty question I want to ask you. I want to ask you a question. Normally, the question is, who would you save? I'm going to do this every week, but it will be Ask Marty. Sometimes I'll put people on the death thing, but it's not this time. This is important. Okay. Let me get into it. How is Winston the cat? He's awesome. I love your cat. What is he in English? He's a British Shorthair. Thank you. Beautiful. cat, funny face, just gorgeous. Oh, he is. I have a cat, a little black cat named Freddie, named after Freddie Mercury. We have a dog named Jagger. So Jagger is 22 pounds, 10 kilos.
    43:45
    Freddie is smaller than Jagger and would be about a third the weight. And here's why I want to ask Marty, how in the hell are cats shits so big compared to dogs? That cat can out shit me. I know from cleaning the litter. They're monsters. I need to know this. We purposely got a small dog because I didn't want a dog out shitting me. Jagger has little, not rabbit herds, but somewhere in between. My fucking cat. I think I've got the answer. There's a couple of things. It's the amount of food, first of all, that you're feeding them. But here's the thing. When a dog wants to do a crap, it fucking does a crap. Cats can hold on to it. They store it all up and go, here's a fucking juggernaut for you. Boom. Who wants five Tootsie Rolls? Holy shit, they're big.
    44:35
    That's it. They can hold on to it. Our cat, if we don't have the door to the laundry where the litter is, he won't fucking go and piss and shit elsewhere. He'll hold on to it until the time is right and then just let out the floodgates. Aren't you surprised? No. I've had cats all my life. I'm not surprised at all. Just compared to the dog. I mean, anyway. I've never really had dogs, so I don't really have that much of a comparison. But to answer your question, yeah, I think they can store it up and just when it goes, it goes. There you go. Great question. Well, it is a good question. And listen, cats, they're robbed in the wiener department. All right. Have you ever, right? Like, I mean, that's a fucking. I don't know. They are robbed in the wiener department. They've got nothing. On a good day, you might get a fingernail at best. Like there's nothing there. and the pinky at best. Whereas dogs will, you know, they fucking flop around or whatever. Yeah. Dogs walk the walk, but they can't shit. You know, like compared to a cat, like, okay, yeah, I make fun of my mirror. How's this? Boom, fucking monster. But anyway, I just, right before we recorded that day, I just smelt a waft as I walked down here. I'm like, oh, I got to change the letter. Holy fuck.
    45:46
    Anyway, okay. I hope you're listening during dinner. Go ahead. Yeah. So, you know, listen, And if you have other questions that you want to talk about animals ablutions, please give us an email at finalrampinball.gmail.com. We'd love to hear all about your animals poo. Well, and I was joking about the wieners and stuff, but in Iceland, they have the – because Zach Sharp went there and I said, you got to go check out the penis museum. He said, what? I said, I'm not joking. My wife and a bunch of friends went for somebody's 50th and they said, we're going to the penis museum. I'm like, just say the strippers. And she said, no, no, it's an actual penis museum. I'm like, so they have like molds of like the Iceland bobsled team or something like that. I'm like, hey, that's a little crude. But then they've got all these animal ones. And she said the cat's wiener is the smallest one there. So, okay. Well, we have a place called. Let's do 20 more minutes on this. This is, fuck pinball. Absolutely. So we've got a place in Tasmania, speaking of Tasmania, called Mona, the Museum of Old and New Art. and they actually have an exhibition of molds of vaginas that literally go down the the wall of one of the floors so if you come to test media there you go veg fest geez that's not a doorway anyway i didn't say it what i say okay now i know we gave a sneak peek of we already know what the next game going to be announced is. So if you were on the tape, you've got that already. But for those that didn't, there are some rumors out there. What do you think, Marty? What's coming next? Well, the rumor that I keep hearing is that it's going to be Venom.
    47:27
    Is it? Whatever. I mean... What do you think about that as a theme? Okay. I'm not going to say yes or no to whether it's happening or not, but what do I think of it as a theme? Perfect. Great for pinball. Sure. I mean, Spider-Man was a wicked game. Yeah, it'll be great. if that's the game yeah but i but you know venom really uh isn't as popular as spider-man right but you know i guess it's like for me it's kind of like deadpool where you know it's a it's a good character but it's not one of the major characters but people bought it because it was a great game was fun to play so yes it's again the theme is fuck am i gonna spend ten thousand dollars because I kind of like something or does the game have to be good? Yeah, I don't. But Deadpool is still number seven on Pinside. So that's huge. That's OK. I'm going to be talking about games that have aged really well after their release and some that are badly. But when I was then doing a bit of research on where these games rank, Deadpool at number seven, I went, oh, hang on. I mean, I agree because I think that Deadpool is a fantastic game. And I think that they've done phenomenal theme integration. But as a theme itself, I'm like, yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's fine. Fine. Yeah, theme was a novel thing. I remember, I don't even remember when that came out. People were like, oh, it's not the movie. Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's better that it's not the movie. Yeah, I agree. They gave it its own style as a result, which I think worked well. Perfect example. Considered one of the greatest games ever. Jurassic Park by Keith Owen. there's nothing fucking jurassic park about that game there's nothing movie about it you've got the car that's not even the car from the movie you've got no characters no assets there are dinosaurs it isn't jurassic park it's a great game but you're being snubbed if you think you're slapping a logo on that and that's a jurassic park game not nope nope nope it's not well of course it's a jurassic park game it's a jurassic it's not the movie park but it's not the movie no of course but it's still jurassic park you know well it is you know it's the logo and as mrs pin said that ain't a fucking t-rex that's a brontosaurus remember when she said that that head moving around like that ain't no yeah yeah but yeah number four on pin side jurassic park just no arguing it's great game it's not not the movie but i also we've said that before i like when you've got a theme so it doesn't have to follow it verbatim it's it's kind of roughly the it's in the world of whatever avengers it's in the world of jurassic park perfect but sure with your logic that's basically saying that avengers into divinity goes well that's not avengers because it's not avengers the movie but it is the comic they've got all the characters yeah no that's that's closer that's closer than jurassic park well yeah i mean they've got the helicopter so that's that and they've got they've got the goat that gets eaten they've got some elements they've got the raptors in the kitchen come on there's enough there's enough but okay so so let me go and let me go into my point that i'm gonna make so i went to hashman and danger's place uh for a birthday event so happy birthday to all those people and it really is because i just i don't get out as you know uh it was a chance to play some pinball which was awesome and so i got to i got to play a rush le for the first time i'd only played a pro before and right next to it was Godzilla, Ellie. And there were some other games here as well. And I just wanted to almost have a bit of a discussion, a review of games and some games that I think have aged really well and some that haven't. And again, when I look at Deadpool at number seven, I go, well, hang on, that's aged extremely well because when that first came out, people were very cool about it. And you wouldn't even necessarily say that code changed it that much. I just think people understood the game and what it's meant to be over time. But back to Rush. Oh, my God. It is such a fucking good game. Oh, good. Okay. I was worried. Where is he going? Oh, no. Not at all. I said it before when I first played it. I went, wow, there's something about this game. Having now spent more and more time on it, I just think it's one of Stern's best games in recent years. I really, really do. And that's the general consensus when I talk to people. They just love the game. You've got it. Thoughts? I think it's so underrated. Even if people say it's one of the greatest, it's fantastic. The code is brilliant. The shots are fun. There's lots to do. And I just have the Pro. I like the LE and the Premium. They're both fine. I just didn't think I needed the extra things that the LE and the Premium offered. So I saved a little money there. And I still have a lot of fun and lots to do there. I haven't even come close to tackling it, and I consider myself somewhat of a good player. And I make it tough as well, but lots of fun there. And so Godzilla, just update for everybody. I'm still not loving it. Ryan said something to me the other day. We actually tried to have Ryan on this show, but he couldn't join us tonight, so we'll get him on soon. We were talking about Godzilla, and he says, you know, when you own it and you're dialed in, you never miss the left ramp. You never miss the right ramp. and there's the building there and the scoop. There are four shots there. You can find those shots on two shots on each flipper. You're probably going to do pretty well. I just played it at C&E. I don't know that game very well. I don't know what to stack, how to do it. I just was doing exactly that. Hitting the ramp slots, hitting the scoop when I see it lit, following what the mode told me to do. I had a pretty good score.
    53:13
    I certainly don't consider myself someone who knows that game a lot. I still have fun. It shoots really cool. I think if I owned it, I'd like it even more. And I will be owning it. I'm getting a premium. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, look, again, it's from a casual player's view because I don't have it, so I don't get to play it all the time. And maybe it would grow on me. But, you know, I had Jurassic Park, which I instantly loved. And then it just got even better and better over time. So I'm glad to see that's at number four. Well, okay. out of Keith's games, the one I like playing the least is actually Jurassic Park. And I think it's a great game.
    53:55
    Something has to be at the top. Something has to be at the bottom. It's that one. I just find it, and I've heard Keith say, I think it's the O shot. Maybe it's a little too tight. I don't know. I just, I still find Iron Maiden fun beyond belief. Same. Avengers would be, maybe you could flip-flop that with Jurassic, but I haven't come close to completing Avengers and unique shots there. I think Godzilla has a lot of... The problem with Godzilla for me is kind of what you were saying in earlier episodes. I really don't know what I'm doing. I'm just hitting shit, and I'm not being told really what to do. When should I be hammering that heat ray, which I don't even know really when I should, or when it's ready to go, and should I be going spinners, this, this, this? So I have to watch more streams. I know Carl's done a bunch, but I just don't really know from looking down at the play field what I should be doing. If I'm looking up watching somebody else, it's a lot easier. You can't always look up when you're playing. Well, that's what I think the advantage that Jurassic Park has, because I think you always know what you need to do by either looking at the screen, looking at the play field, or hearing the call outs. It guides you much better through the game.
    55:07
    So, yeah, So I would put, for me, I would put Jurassic Park as, this is the Erwin games. Jurassic Park for me is number one. Iron Maiden is number two. And I would love that back in my collection. I would. I don't know. I just think there was something magical about everything coming together. The theme and the layout, the sounds, the call outs, the insert. I think that that is just a great collection of everything. I think Jurassic Park, for me, has a better rule set, just the framework of how you get to the end game. I really like it. And then I'd put Godzilla and Avengers side by side, equal. Now, I would say Iron Maiden is maybe one of my five favorite games to play. Okay. And I've never owned it. And I never wanted to own it because it's everywhere. That's the one good thing and bad thing about it. I mean, it sold a ton, so they're not missing out by my one sale. But I look forward to it at tournaments. I look forward to it in free play, going to leagues, going to arcades. I enjoy playing that so much. It's just a great shooting game and the different modes and call-outs and music. But I didn't need to buy it because it is everywhere. So, yeah, Jurassic Park's everywhere. But I wouldn't go to that one. Look, I just think this may be a bit too much gravitas, but I think that it can't be underestimated the impact that Iron Maiden had on pinball design. I think it was a game changer. Something to do with an upper flipper other than one shot, for example? Yep. And Keith, one of my favorite things he does, and he's done it on all four games. Here's an upper flipper, but how many times is it wise to actually not flip? You can find that example in all four of his games. Yeah. where it makes sense not to flip. Yep, correct. But also, he gives you incentive to flip as opposed to always letting it come down to the bottom flippers. But the novice players, when they see the ball, they hit the ball, as opposed to try to cradle or let it bounce. And a lot of those upper flipper shots that you ignore on Keith's games will give you a good dead bounce over to the flipper you need, perhaps. So just brilliant design. I can't wait for his next one. yeah cool so then that leads me to just further games that i got to play that i just thought to myself gee they've aged really well and there's one that i i'm just a little bit perplexed there you go i said it i'm perplexed people i am surprised that game of thrones is number 55 on the pin side top 100 you think it should be higher i think it should be much higher yeah I think there's a fantastic game. It's my favorite Dwight Code. Yes, same. I've said that, yeah. Stranger Things is 17. Let me just say that. Flip those. Right? Stranger Things is 17. Game of Thrones is 55. But Black Knight Sword of Rage is 27. I'll take Game of Thrones over those two games. Rick and Morty, 31. Although, you and I both said this, Stranger Things is a game that has aged well over time. It is, and it's on my list of games that's aged well. I did put in brackets, to an extent. But yeah, it's number 17. So it has aged quite well. I think what's really aged well with that game is people's adjustment to the art style. Because then once you do that, because that was quite jarring at first. People were like, well, that's not the color palette we were expecting. It's so colorful. There's purples and oranges, and it's not dark enough. But after a while, once you get over that, you actually realize it's actually quite an immersive game, which I like. I think rules-wise, its downfall is that I think it's a bit of a grindy repeat fest, meaning when you start the game, pretty much doing the same thing each time. There not a lot of options really I just felt like I was always playing it through the same way I think one factor more than anything else determines whether a game ages well or poorly One factor You just mentioned art. It's not art. What is the one factor? Well, I know the factor. The one factor is game satisfaction, whether you feel like you want to play a game. Again, the element that goes into that, well, God, there's many things. But what do you reckon it is? 100%. It's code. Code? The play field's always the play field. Sure. Walking Dead was a piece of shit when you first played it. And then the code went, boom, here you go. And now it's a great game. It's the code that makes the change over time. Stranger Things, the code got better. Guardians of the Galaxy, the code got better. Sure. But I sort of gave the example before of Deadpool. Because Deadpool did, but didn't radically change. I think we just appreciated a very sort of different type of layout that was a bit jarring at first. but I think it just sort of aged well. But another one on my list that I got to play again was Kiss, which is at 51, which is higher than Game of Thrones, just in case. Another code change with the Playfield multipliers. That's a great game. It is a good game. It really is. And the one that I know we've mentioned because it was on my underrated list and, God, my memory's pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure it won. Mustang is such a freaking underrated game. 134 That's ridiculous And you don't see many of them No that's right I guess it didn't sell well I enjoy the game Same It's just fun It's fun It's tough when you've got those five drop targets in front of you And the big flipper gap But it's a fun game It's pretty good I like it It's kind of a JT's That's the closest I'm going to say to his name JT's kind of best of forth you got the the big uh ramp into the creature the black lagoon spinner thing there yeah the whirlpool thingy yep but um it's a fun game when extra balls are off sure it is very very extra ball heavy yeah for sure so yeah there you go that was just my some thoughts so genuinely this time people if you can think of a game that's come out let's say in the last well maybe 10 years that has aged really well, write into us and let us know. Where do people write to us? They write to us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. But do you think there's any particular games that have aged badly over time? I don't think Mandalorian's done too well in the last few years. Yeah, I got to play that again.
    61:48
    Again, I think what you were saying before, I don't think its code is as good as its layout. Oh, yeah.
    61:55
    That's right. The layout, the callouts are good. The code is just not quite where it makes you want to go back again and again and again. And that could change. Yeah. But it's beautiful to look at. Randy Martinez's art is spectacular. The shots are pretty fun. It's nice to see Brian Eddy do a different layout. You know, when he came back with Stranger Things, we were like, whoa, that's the first thing back after so many years. But he was asked, basically, to do something Attack from Mars-like. So when he gave us that, awesome. So I'm looking forward to his next one. Josh talks a lot about there's just too many options sometimes in pinball. And if they're not equal, that could be a problem. And the original Game of Thrones code had that problem. I think Mandalorian might fall into that problem. You look at, oh, I'll do that mode. I'll skip that mode. I'm going to hit the center shot over and over again. Those type of things, a little concerning. But maybe they get fixed. Who knows? Okay. I should... Fuck, I got to pull this up. So it has been a while. Our good friend, Dr. John. Yes. Who's trying to make a living, not as a doctor, but as the voice of Australia. How do you feel about that, first of all? The Australian podcast. Okay. I'm going to tell you this. I wrote to Dr. John after hearing him on, it might have been like a radio show. I'm scrolling through my phone trying to find it. But look, I reached out to him and I said to him. Back the fuck off. No, I actually know that's actually not true. I actually said to him that I think he is a fantastic ambassador of pinball because he's obviously an intelligent guy. He's very well spoken. And what he does, he's been on a few radio shows and some other promo stuff as well. what he does is he adds a bit of cred to the pinball community because he's usually talking to people that are like oh are you a pinball wizard oh pinball and they still make he knows and they they speak like that so they're taking the piss what do you guys call those boggans but what he does because he's so eloquent with how he speaks it kind of just shuts them down when they kind of go oh oh this guy's actually for real this is actually a normal thing yeah Let's go back to making fun of those magic guys.
    64:22
    But it really is. And so I'm absolutely delighted for him to be the voice of Australian pinball with his podcast.
    64:32
    So what he did, this is the funniest thing. So he's, by the way, you should listen to the Australian podcast. It was pretty good. He was the one I just heard he had on. I didn't hear in episode 9, but episode 8 he had the Western Australian who almost beat Steve Bowden at... Now, you've met him. I forgot to mention this last time when we were talking about Business Masters. You met him at Indisc. Listen, I don't remember Australians when I meet them. You know that. No, I do know that. Yes. Anyway, so Dr. John heard us make fun of some silly names in Australia, which were all real, by the way. and he said, this is what he wrote. He wrote me separately on pinballprofile.gmail.com. I don't know how he sent it to you because I haven't seen your questions. You haven't seen mine. He said, hello, Jeff. Time for a Dr. John quiz because Martin doesn't know about Australia. This is a short five-question quiz for him. Plan is you ask him these five questions and he will ask you five questions about your beloved Canada. I've written the Aussie ones and Craig Bobby wrote the Canadian ones. Best scorer gets to chug less fireball than the loser or whatever punishment you see fit. Alternate the question between yourself. I'll forward the Canadian questions directly to Marty so there's no funny business. I haven't seen yours. You haven't seen mine. That's correct. Who's going first? You can go first. Aussie question. He's given us five. So play along at home. Wait a minute. Should we be on video so we're not Googling? We're not going to cheat. How many flyers do you have in front of you? Funny. I know. All right. What and or where is the largest monolithic above-ground rock in Australia? Marty, there's no multiple choice. Tell me where.
    66:11
    Oh, you're fucking typing. I'm not, but I feel like this might be a trick question because... You have 10 seconds to answer. Uluru. I would expect that it is Uluru. The question again, what and or where is the largest monolithic above-ground rock in Australia? It is actually Mount Augustus in West Australia, not Uluru, as most people think. So there you go. I wouldn't have guessed either of those. No, there you go. I know nothing. So my question for you, the CNE, which is the Canadian National Exhibition, is an annual fair and one of the longest and largest running major events in Toronto. From freak shows to modernist architecture, concerts, arcades, and amusement rides, the X has been home to an array of fascinating cultural phenomenon over the years. Oh, my God. That's the Craig Bobby question. It's going to take 20 minutes to get through the answer. Go ahead. What year was the CNE founded? It's over 100 years old. I know that. So give me the multiples. Did they give me any multiples? Yes. So you've got either 1913, 1909, 1947, or 1879. What was the first one you said? 1913. I'll take that one. Okay. Well, you're wrong. Shit. Like, how could you possibly be right? What a fucking tough question. Hard quiz. You blank hard. The answer is, and of course it's Craig Grubby, so I've got an answer. The CNE was originally called the Toronto Industrial Exhibition and was founded in 1879 to showcase the latest developments in technology and innovation. It took its current name in 1912. And it wasn't its primary focus until the 20th century. All right. Thanks, Craig. Number two for you. We make jokes about New Zealand, but what is the ratio of sheep to people in Australia? Is it A, one to two, B, one to one, two, two to one, or D, three to one? From? The sheep to people ratio in Australia. It's three to one. Three sheep to one person? Yep. Answer, three to one. Lots of sheep to share. And they're, this is what he wrote, and they're quite pretty in some cases. Jeez. So we've got lots of sheep. We just don't fuck them. Okay. Next question for you. There is no proof of that. by the way it's because we don't share the video remind me to talk to you about the boys we've seen it all okay season three i thought we should do a segment what are the best fish to fuck we're not going to do that oh my god by the way the answer is none none okay here we go canadians love this fast food so much that canada has more of these restaurants or shops per capita than any other nation in the world? Is it A, McDonald's, B, pizza restaurants, C, donut shops, or D, food trucks? Better be donut shops. Is that your final answer? Sure. Okay. Your answer is donut shops, mostly Tim Hortons. Yeah, for sure. All right. So we're one each. That's good. Yeah. Can we just talk about Tim Hortons for a second? Because the only reason why I know about Tim Hortons was this viral video that I saw of this woman that was dying to go to the toilet and she ended up crapping into a napkin and throwing it at the person because they left it in the toilet. Yeah. There you go. That's what I think of Canada. Was it bigger than a cat shit?
    69:24
    This can't be true. There are over 4,300 Tim Hortons locations in Canada. Easily. Out of the 4,900 worldwide. What? It's a license to print money here. The wait to get a Tim Hortons is ridiculous, and it's obviously in the millions to purchase that franchise, but if you get one, congratulations, you won the lottery. Seriously. Are they that good? No, it's just fucking people will line up. I don't drink coffee. I drink tea, but people will line up 25 minutes in a drive-thru in the winter to get their coffee, and I don't get it, but... Well, did you know that up to 80% of Canadians say they visit the franchise at least once a month? That's just off the top of my head. Yeah, I'm sure it is. All right, question three. What Guinness World Record did Bob Hawk, Prime Minister of Australia, what record did he hold? Bonus points for the figures involved. It was beer drinking. I'm going to give that to you. Fastest drinking of a yard glass of beer. Yeah, yep. 2.5 pints or 1.4 liters in 11 seconds. How is he still not the Prime Minister? He was a fucking hero. People used to always, always, whenever they met him, give him a beer and watch him drink. Honestly, that's Australian Prime Minister's foot. Nice, nice. Okay, here we go. Okay. Those hooded sweatshirts that the rest of the world refers to as hoodies have a different and ridiculously cute moniker in the Canadian province of, oh my God, Saskatchewan. You said it right. How was that? Was I? Cool. Where they're known as what? A. Criminals. B. Bunny hugs. C. Joey's or D. Jumpers Jumpers. Is that your final answer? I'm guessing. I don't know the answer. The answer is Bunny Hugs. The origins of this nickname again, off the top of my head, are not as cute as you'd expect stemming from similar hooded clothing made from pelts of bunnies after the mass bunny side that took place when rabbit populations soared throughout the roof and people were encouraged to kill as many bunnies as possible. Yeah, who gives a shit? I got the question wrong. Two to one, if I'm ready. Two more questions each. Okay. Number four, on average, the adult Australian drinks how much beer per year in liters? This was back in 2018, in case you've been keeping stats of the last four years. Our last data comes from 2018. On the average, adult Australian drinks how much beer per year? Is it 31, 86, 92, or 340? I'm going to say 92. What a shitty, shitty, shitty quiz. he goes 31 86 92 86 and 92 are about the same and 340 i feel bad for you you did get it wrong you said 92 the question was 86 in my book you're pretty damn close i'm not giving you the point because i'm losing 86 liters per year of course that means ryan drinks 172 liters because martin doesn't drink beer or oz eric makes up for all of them absolutely okay i gotta catch up so So this question, I'm not sure whether the first part of this is factually accurate. It says, Canada is a great sporting nation. Okay. Probably known best for its love of hockey, what many call the national sport. However, you may not know that Canada also has a rich basketball heritage. Formed in 1946, what was the name of Toronto's first professional basketball team? Was it A, the Toronto Seals? B, the Toronto Huskies? C. The Toronto Beavers or D. The Toronto Brown Trouts? I'm going to go Huskies. That is correct. It was a guess. Yeah, basketball invented in Canada. But I wasn't sure if the Huskies was the hockey team. So it was the only name I kind of recognized. 2-2. Final question. Here we go. Oh, boy. The equivalent of the presidential debate here, the prime minister's debate in 2010 was rescheduled due to a clash with what event? no multiple choice uh presidential debate sorry we can't air it because something's happening afl grand final that's a good guess that would have my guess i know how much the aussies love that it would have been a sport thing for sure was it no the prime minister's debate to determine who is going to be your next prime minister and really do all important things to put australia on the map no we're gonna forego that because the televised final of the tv cooking show master chef was on Wow. Go, go Australia. That's us. Okay. Yep. Canada for the win here. Yeah, here we go. For the best Commonwealth country. Here we go.
    74:13
    Canada, like the United States, has a rich and diverse First Nations heritage. The name Canada comes from Huron Iroquois, maybe, I don't know, language, which means what? A, village. B, the Great White North. C. Land of Snow and Ice or D. Beaver Fever Village. Is that your final answer? My final guess, sure. Do you know that for sure? No, I just don't think it's the Great White North. I was hoping it would be Beaver Fever.
    74:43
    Unfortunately, you are correct. Bingo. Let's be honest, the other clues are pretty silly. It wasn't going to be the Great White North. What were the other ones you said? Land of Snow and Ice, Beaver Fever. That would have been great. I'll take Village. I learned something there. Okay. Canada, three. Australia, two. Suck it, Down Under.
    75:04
    Yeah, I'm not sure any of us should be proud of the results from today. Admittedly, I'm not sure any of those questions and answers have improved my life. Well, maybe this will improve your life. We got a shout out on another podcast. It's a new podcast. Like, really, really new. Really new. I know. so jason from wisconsin has started a new podcast it's called the pinball party uh it's on pod bean or something like that and he gave us kind of a shout out here it is uh i listened to final round one of my favorites of all time fuck those guys they suck but please keep making more shows i i feel like we are the inspiration for his podcast because basically we didn't put out a show so he sent us no time well fuck it i'm gonna do one anyway my mondays to thursdays are ruined because there aren't enough podcasts so i'm gonna fill the void so he's on the second podcast now give it a chance uh pinball party it's hilarious it's actually quite you know he's he's got some audio background. His pipes are fine. I thought it was pretty good, but Jason, there you go, you son of a bitch. You got your plug. I think we're done. I think we are. For sure. We covered a lot. Did I mention Flip Frenzies? Yes, I did. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you did.
    76:32
    Yep. Yep. We revealed the next few games. Yep. We got that. I beat you in the quiz. Yeah, we're good. Yeah. I think that's all we needed to do. Until December, my name is Jeff.
    76:44
    Actually, I think we're... I still, I just, sometimes I just wonder how you didn't get a career in comedy.
    76:56
    You're very funny. Thank you. Thank you, you lying piece of shit. You're right. Okay, let me look at my calendar here. I actually got it right here. I'm going to see when we can record next because people will want to know. What do I have next on my agenda? I am actually away in two weeks. That's when Pinfest is going to be. Okay. Well, maybe we should record next weekend. And I'm being serious because I've got to go to Cleepin in Cleveland. I've got a Pinball Profile Played in America tour event in Pittsburgh. I kick back.
    77:26
    And, uh, uh-oh, then I'm going to the United Kingdom. I'm going to the UK to see Neil McRae and his Pinball event. Neil's awesome. Yeah, awesome. So we better squeeze one in next week. How about that? Yeah, we will. But also, just as well, there are a couple of events coming up as well in Australia. So we've got PinFest. I already heard it on the Australian show. Yeah, okay. But people don't listen to that show. Oh, okay. We've got an international audience. Oh, yeah. So there you go. So that's on September 17 and 18. If you come, Haggis will be there, so make sure you come and say hello. But we've also got a great tournament coming up as well, which is Pinberra, which is in our nation's capital, which is Canberra. I wish that had been a question from Dr. John. so that's from September 32 Monday October the 3rd and I've been to a tournament that Pete Menzel runs in Canberra before really really well run tournament this one's over four days get up to Canberra for that one lots of activity there yeah for sure I mean now that we're opened up people are putting their schedules back together good nice to hear take that Ian yeah alright where can people find us because I have no idea or can they write to us and say where the fuck is your show Where does that all happen? Most people choose Facebook for that. They message us. But you can also email us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Final Round Pin is our Twitter handle and Final Round Pinball podcast on Instagram. We did it. We're there. We're done. So you're welcome, everybody. Quit your bitching. You got your show. Have fun. Nice hearing from you, Marty. No worries. You too. See everybody.