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Episode 81_Pass the Gravy...Extra Pinball (1)

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 31m·analyzed·Nov 24, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Pinball industry analysis: 10 manufacturers, collector-driven market, Stern vs boutique positioning.

Summary

The Spinner Is Lit Podcast explores the modern pinball manufacturing landscape, comparing it to historical market structures (70s/90s peaks). The hosts discuss how pinball evolved from commercial equipment to a collector-driven market, analyze Stern's dominance as the arcade-focused manufacturer, and examine Jersey Jack Pinball's position as a premium home collector brand. Key topics include maintenance requirements, Insider Connected's innovation, theme licensing, and how different manufacturers serve distinct market segments.

Key Claims

  • There are now approximately 10 active pinball manufacturers (mostly US-based, some European), compared to 4 main manufacturers in the 1970s and 4 major players in the 1990s

    high confidence · Spencer states this directly as an opening premise for the episode's manufacturer-by-manufacturer discussion

  • Stern makes the only true arcade pinball machines because of their proprietary operating system (not PC-based), making them more robust for 12+ hour daily use

    high confidence · Dan elaborates on this claim, noting PC-based systems (used by JJP, American Pinball, P-Rock) are inherently less robust for hardcore location use despite being reliable

  • Insider Connected is the biggest innovation in pinball in the last 10 years, possibly more important than LCD screens

    high confidence · Mark and Dan agree this feature fundamentally changed the community engagement and collectability of Stern games

  • A Stern Star Wars Fallen Empire Pro machine filled its coin door with quarters in less than a week, indicating strong operator earnings

    high confidence · Mark references Electric Bat podcast report; this mirrors classic arcade economics from the 80s/90s

  • Jersey Jack Pinball sold approximately 4,000 Wizard of Oz machines at one point

    medium confidence · Spencer cites this as announced sales figure; also notes ~5,000 Guns N' Roses sold during pandemic period

  • Pinball market shifted from arcade-driven (1970s-2000s) to collector-driven (2010-present), driven by affluent home buyers willing to spend $7,000-$13,000 per machine

    high confidence · Dan explains the 2010 inflection point where collector market rose separate from arcade decline

  • Video game arcade dominance in the early 1980s muscled pinball out of locations due to lower maintenance costs and higher margins

    high confidence · Dan and Mark discuss operator economics: Pac-Man cost less, made twice the money, required 1/10th the maintenance

  • Jersey Jack Pinball follows a design philosophy of making 'magic machines' and collector games rather than utilitarian workhorse machines

Notable Quotes

  • “Since 2010, it isn't that arcades have come back. It's that you're living in the rise of the collector market. Right. Where guys are buying pinball machines now for their homes, right? And, you know, collectors, some of whom are extremely well-moneyed, are willing to pay $7,000, $8,000, $10,000, $12,000, $13,000 to get not only the games that they want, but maybe the games that nobody else can get.”

    Dan @ ~18:00 — Foundational explanation of market shift from arcade-dependent to collector-driven; explains pricing premium for limited editions and exclusive themes

  • “Insider Connected is probably the single biggest difference maker in pinball since they started putting LCD screens. And probably, in a weird way, it's even more important.”

    Mark @ ~48:00 — High praise for Stern's community integration feature; signals shift toward networked pinball as differentiator

  • “Stern makes the games that are, you know, geared towards, you know, arcade operators...even when you buy it the premium or the limited edition trim that you can probably set on a floor in an arcade, turn that thing on, and let it run for a week and have a reasonably good chance that you're going to get there at the end of the week for your earnings and your wipe down, and that machine is still going to be running like a top.”

    Dan @ ~35:00 — Articulates Stern's unique value proposition: reliability and arcade-readiness; explains operator preference for Stern despite boutique alternatives

  • “Innovation in pinball is risky. Yeah, it is. Because everybody says, oh, I want innovation, and then a company comes out like Multimorphic and does something that's truly different and truly innovative, and then you have to spend the rest of your life convincing people that it's a real pinball machine.”

    Spencer/Mark @ ~54:00 — Identifies tension between innovation desire and market skepticism; explains Multimorphic's positioning challenge

  • “JJP didn't want to make the utilitarian workhorse machines. They wanted to make the magic machines, and they haven't always hit the mark. But when they do hit the mark, they really hit the mark.”

    Dan @ ~61:00 — Defines JJP's design philosophy and market positioning; explains collector appeal vs hit-or-miss theme risk

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyBarrels of FuncompanyAmerican PinballcompanyMultimorphiccompanySpencerperson

Signals

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball market has shifted from operator/arcade-driven to affluent home collector-driven since ~2010, with collectors willing to pay $7,000-$13,000 per machine for exclusivity and themes

    high · Dan explains market inflection point: 'Since 2010, it isn't that arcades have come back. It's that you're living in the rise of the collector market'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Insider Connected identified as most significant pinball innovation in past 10 years, arguably more important than LCD screens; fundamentally changes collector engagement and machine value

    high · Mark: 'Insider Connected is probably the single biggest difference maker in pinball in the last 10 years. And probably, in a weird way, it's even more important.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack Pinball machines suffer from CMOS battery failures due to PC architecture, requiring disassembly and manual jumpstart procedures—problematic for premium-priced machines

    high · Spencer: 'every once in a while, your machine will just decide that it doesn't work. And, you know, the CMOS battery will go out.' Also reports recent case of 3 machines failing simultaneously

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stern controls arcade/operator segment with proprietary OS and reliability; JJP/Spooky/Barrels of Fun compete in premium collector segment with complex, visually stunning machines; clear market bifurcation

    high · Dan: 'Stern makes the games that are, you know, geared towards, you know, arcade operators' vs 'JJP didn't want to make the utilitarian workhorse machines. They wanted to make the magic machines'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.454

0:00
Hey, welcome to the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast, Episode 81, Pastor Gravy Extra Pinball. I'm your host, Spencer, and with me are my co-hosts, Dan. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. And Mark. Hey, everyone. Have a great Thanksgiving. Yes, yes, Thanksgiving is coming very soon. Unless it comes out after Thanksgiving. There you go.
0:44
It won't. I'll believe it when I see it. So, yeah, so we got a lot going on, a lot to talk about. I'll kind of give the listeners a preference. We've already talked about it. So basically, you know, there's been a lot of chatter with online personalities, other collectors, people in our group, people in other groups and online, you know, and other people that put out pinball content, both audio and video. And we're just going to kind of talk about what's going on in pinball and all the manufacturers because as I was talking with you guys earlier, I said, kind of went back and looked. If you looked at the height of pinball in the 70s, there were basically four main manufacturers and a couple, three little companies that would occasionally make a pinball machine or a gun game or something like that. You know, the big boys were Gottlieb, Bally, Williams, and at the time, Chicago Coin, which then became Stern Electronics. and you look at the 90s, you know, you had the four big players. It was a huge run of some pinball again then. And you had Bally Williams had become what Gottlieb had used to be and they had 80% of the market. You had Gottlieb Premier. You had, it was Stern, but it was Daddy slash Sega. And then for just a very short moment, like a little over a year, or maybe two at the most, you had Capcom and Alvin Jeep. Well, I'm looking at it right now, and we basically have 10 manufacturers, most in America, a couple in Europe, that are producing games. And there may be another couple small. Like, I didn't put Quetzal in here, because other than a couple of private collectors, I've never seen a Quetzal pinball in America, like on location or anything. So I'm just talking about all the companies that manufacture games that do sell to home collectors but also sell to, you know, route operators. And I figure we'll go through each one and kind of just talk about, hey, what's going on? You know, the pros and cons, what we like, because each one brings something unique and special to the table. And there's so much going on in pinball. You look at it, I think, more than ever before.

high confidence · Dan contrasts JJP with Stern's arcade-first approach; notes Barrels of Fun and Spooky Pinball are following JJP's collector-focused model

  • Dialed In is the jankiest Jersey Jack machine, with notably poor artwork

    high confidence · Multiple hosts agree; Mark defends it as a phenomenal game design despite aesthetic issues

  • Jersey Jack machines are PC-based, making them prone to CMOS battery failures that require disassembly and manual jumpstart procedures

    high confidence · Dan criticizes this design choice for premium machines; notes recent examples of 3 machines failing due to dead CMOS batteries

  • “What I don't like about JJPs, and I'll speak to this being a JJP owner, is that they're really cool machines to own, right? They're intricate...But they are just basically a PC in a pinball machine shape box. And therefore, like every once in a while, your machine will just decide that it doesn't work.”

    Spencer @ ~72:00 — Critical product concern: JJP reliability issues due to PC architecture; impacts premium-priced product perception

  • “They got in there, they opened up the coin door, and the coin door was completely full of quarters. It couldn't take any more money...I haven't heard about this in pinball in a very long time.”

    Mark @ ~40:00 — Signals strong operator earnings for Stern Star Wars Pro; draws parallel to classic arcade economics; indicates location viability

  • “Finding an early 80s game, finding a Black Knight or Flash Gordon or a Fathom or something like that with a nice play field was like amazing because they were all played to death.”

    Dan @ ~22:00 — Historical context: operator maintenance neglect created supply of worn games; motivated restoration market

  • “Stern is the only manufacturer that's actually making arcade pinball machines because of their operating system...they're just not making PC-based machines.”

    Dan @ ~34:00 — Key technical differentiation: non-PC Stern architecture defines arcade vs home machine distinction

  • “Godfather is kind of a cool theme. I just don't necessarily see that crossover right now between, like, pinball people and Godfather fans...Godfather were baby boomers, not Generation X.”

    Spencer @ ~64:00 — Demographic analysis of theme appeal; explains JJP's occasional licensing misses based on collector age cohorts

    • Dan
    person
    Markperson
    Star Wars Fallen Empiregame
    Black Knight Sword of Ragegame
    Dungeons and Dragonsgame
    James Bondgame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Harry Pottergame
    Avatargame
    Dialed Ingame
    Ninja Turtlesgame
    Insider Connectedproduct
    Gottliebcompany
    Bally/Williamscompany
    Chicago Coin/Stern Electronicscompany
    Electric Bat podcastcontent

    industry_signal: Pinball market evolved from ~4 dominant manufacturers in 70s/90s to ~10 active manufacturers now; dramatic fragmentation but sustainable due to collector demand supporting boutique producers

    high · Spencer catalogs 10 modern manufacturers vs 4 in 1970s and 4 in 1990s; industry expansion driven by collector market

  • ?

    operational_signal: Stern Star Wars Fallen Empire Pro filled coin door with quarters in under one week at location, indicating strong operator earnings comparable to classic arcade economics

    high · Mark references Electric Bat podcast: 'coin door was completely full of quarters. It couldn't take any more money...I haven't heard about this in pinball in a very long time'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern's proprietary (non-PC) operating system positioned as more robust for 12+ hour daily arcade use vs PC-based systems (JJP, American Pinball, P-Rock) which are reliable but considered less arcade-appropriate

    high · Dan: 'they're just not making PC-based machines...it's just an inherently less robust board set for hardcore 12 hours a day sitting there running use'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Collectors showing signs of fatigue with Stern's design repetition ('stern sameliness') and Spike 3 perceived as insufficiently differentiated; newer boutique competition (Evil Dead, Winchester Mystery House, Beetlejuice) appearing more innovative

    high · Spencer: 'I think that a lot of folks, especially the collectors, are starting to get thin on Stern's current offering...it looks pretty skimpy next to the competition right now'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Insider Connected feature significantly increases collector valuation and desirability; machines without it (Ninja Turtles, Iron Maiden) seen as less desirable despite gameplay quality

    high · Spencer: 'I had Ninja Turtles and I had Iron Maiden...them not being connected made me not want them as much as I wanted my Black Knight Sword of Rage...when Stern does some sort of insider connected event I can run out and I can log on'

  • ?

    product_strategy: JJP's licensing strategy shows occasional demographic mismatches (Godfather to Gen-X pinballers, appeal to Baby Boomers); successful themes (Harry Potter) gain strong collector demand

    medium · Spencer analyzes Godfather appeal: 'Godfather were baby boomers, not Generation X...a lot of the pinball collectors are boomers...but Gen X is definitely looking at Gen X or millennial themes now'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: JJP oscillated between packed/complex machines (early Wizard of Oz) to simplified designs (Pirates era) back to fully featured (Harry Potter, Avatar); industry debate over complexity vs accessibility

    medium · Spencer: 'I think maybe like pirates came out and they were just like fuck this game, it's way too complicated...they kind of went the other direction...feels like maybe they've come back around because Harry Potter is definitely packed'

    • 3:10
    Dan, what are your thoughts on just the opening on this? I mean, I think that the one thing that you kind of glossed over was the fact that in the 70s, you know, you had a lot of pinball, right? And you had, you know, tight into the industry, right? Don't leave was huge. Valley was its own thing. Williams, honestly, was probably the third biggest at that moment,
    3:39
    and along with Stern, the original Stern, Stern Electronics, Stern, the late 70s. And then he went into the 80s, and between 80 and 83, like, the shit hit the fan, right? Right. Gottlieb, you know, went through a bunch of mergers and takeovers and was pretty much out of the business by 83. Bally was pretty much done.
    4:07
    Williams was hanging on by the skin of their teeth. They ended up merging with Bally. And then you went into the System 11 era, the late 80s, the early 90s, and, you know. It blew up again. Right. Then it blew up again. and you had some other companies come in.
    4:26
    If you look at that on the map, what that coincides with, it coincides with the rise and the fall and the rise again of video game arcades. Correct. Like in the 70s, pinball was everywhere, right? It wasn't just video game arcades. But in the early 80s, because of video games, you know, video game arcades blew up. They got huge, but they kind of muscled pinball out of their own market. So as arcades went up, pinball actually went down because, you know, why would you buy a pinball machine when you can put a Pac-Man machine there for less money and make twice the quarters with, you know, a tenth of maintenance?
    5:12
    Then you go into the 90s, and what happened in the 90s? Street Fighter, right? Street Fighter came along. arcades kind of blew up, but weirdly enough, this time with the rise of arcades, you got the DMV machines and you had that DMV renaissance between 90 and 93 with Terminator 2, Adam's Family,
    5:37
    Indiana Jones, Twilight Zone, Star Trek The Next Generation, and I think 93, you kind of hit peak market and then, you know, game consoles started getting better, 93, 94, 95, PlayStation, and pinball went into another lull until, like, 2010. Like, it was a long lull that pinball kind of survived in hibernation. Yeah. So since 2010, it isn't that arcades have come back. It's that you're living in the rise of the collector market.
    6:10
    Right. Where guys are buying pinball machines now for their homes, right? And, you know, collectors, some of whom are extremely well-moneyed, are willing to pay $7,000, $8,000, $10,000, $12,000, $13,000 to get not only the games that they want, but maybe the games that nobody else can get. And I think that we're going to cover on that as we go through some of the recent releases from some of the new manufacturers. But it is very interesting if you look at the history of pinball, how the fact is, you know, you've gone from it being commercial equipment to being collector's items.
    6:56
    You know, there was really no such thing as a numbered limited edition in pinball. I mean, there were a couple. There was like a Black Knight limited edition. There was Adam's Gold. Yeah. But even though still, you know, got bought up by operators and got put in our caves, it wasn't like, you know, there were too many people who were just like, I'm spending, you know, $3,500 on this thing to put it home, although we knew then what we know now.
    7:25
    Yeah, right. Although, I don't know, man, if you came to me in 1994 and said, hey, do you want to spend $3,400 on a toy? I would have been like, I don't have $3,400.
    7:35
    Exactly. I'd have a $1,400 car. Right. Yeah, exactly. So true. Yeah, I think what's interesting, too, when you see how it declined and how it rose up again and back and forth, I know a lot had to do with the operators of just the maintenance, right? Were video games less prone to maintenance than ball machines? Obviously, right? 100%. So did that influence that majorly in the arcades where they were like, I don't want to deal with these repairs anymore, and now I can just put this and turn it on and it's a screen and go at it and make much more money because the games are shorter, et cetera. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's 100% on the money.
    8:24
    That's accurate, right? Let's say that you were an operator back in 1981, and you had 50 locations, you didn't have to place pinball at 50 spots and have 50 possible games that would break, and they were going to cost you a little bit more. And when they weren't on, they weren't earning. You could put 50 Pac-Mans in those spots. They were making more money, and they were breaking down basically never. So all you really had to do was roll in once in a while, open the coin box, collect your quarters, and get out of dodge. Where with pinball, you know, at the very least, you need to stop, pull off the glass. You know, in theory, stop, pull off the glass, give everything a once-over, wipe down the play field. And I think that, you know, did operators do that?
    9:21
    Maybe. But that's why if you go back and especially if you were in the used game market, you know, there was a long time where like finding an early 80s game, finding a Black Knight or Flash Gordon or a Fathom or something like that with a nice play field was like amazing because they were all played to death. Right. And so, yeah, they were all, you know, you just kind of had to deal with the imperfection until the rise of the Restorer came up, right? And I think that started with Fathom, where somebody decided, hey, I'm going to make new playfields for old games. I wonder if somebody would buy this and do a playfield swap. And, yeah, the truth is there's definitely a part of the pinball market where guys will do a playfield swap. Like, plenty of pinball people are handy enough or passionate enough that that's a project that they're willing to take on. I'm not counting myself among them. I've been privy to a play field swap. I've had one done for me, but I haven't sat down and done a play field swap myself. Right. I think that as you went further along, you know, you kind of ran into as the collector's market rose and those classic games became worth more money, then it made more sense for there to be parts. made, right? So, like, you could get those old games and get them fixed up. I think I completely deviated from the point, but not really. Going back to what you're saying, yes, Mark, pinball requires more maintenance than Pac-Man.
    11:00
    I'll add to that. 45 minutes later, damn, you're going to have to answer the question. Yeah, but you bring up more valid points about kind of what we're talking about. And in the pinball collector hobby, the infancy of it, if you will, it was truly a moment or moments of necessity as the mother of invention. You know what I did? I just Spencer'd. You did. I grabbed the wheel of a bus and I turned it down a dirt road towards a cliff. No, no, but you did stay within the topic. So I'm going to start off with the 900-pound Gorilla, that they are now the equivalent of what Gottlieb was in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and Bally Williams in the late 80s and through the 90s. And that's Stern Pinball.
    11:52
    We all have now or have in the past owned a relatively new Stern Pro machine. And those are the workhorses. Those are the system 11s of the day. They work. And they're the most affordable. And that's why they're put on location. we have at least a spike too right yes Mark you've got James Bond I've got Black Knight Sword of Rage and Spencer has Dungeons and Dragons correct and you know for newer games they're very low maintenance and a lot of fun to play and they do what they're supposed to do at home and on location and their role to compare in the topic of pinball they're more affordable, and they get the job done, man.
    12:43
    Mark, last episode, this is your big surprise here. You had talked about you'd only played like the premium or LE of the new Star Wars Fall of the Empire, and when you went to Pinnagogo, you had played the pro, and you went, you know, this game just feels like it was just made just for operators. Great side note, I was listening to the last Electric Bat podcast. Those guys are awesome. Shout out to them, and I love to hear about their earnings reports. Well, they just put a Star Wars Fallen Empire Pro on location, like within five or six days, not even a whole week. So they didn't do the monthly earnings report because they hadn't been in a whole month. But it was like end of the weekend, got a call in the morning, hey, this thing's not accepting quarters. Something came loose or something like, okay, I'll be there in a minute to look at it. They got in there, they opened up the coin door, and the coin door was completely full of quarters. It couldn't take any more money. And that's the kind of thing that we were sort of talking about a minute ago with, you know, with like the classic arcade games of the day, the Pac-Mans and the Galagas and all the way back to Pong. They were literally printing money. They were making money so fast in a weekend, the operators would have to go and empty the coin door or empty the coin box because it would completely fill up. And I haven't heard about this in pinball in a very long time. So, you know, that should kind of tell you where Stern's at, you know. They're keeping route operators alive. And I'll segue over to Dan, last episode. You had called it. You said something to the effect of, we talked about this earlier before we went to record, that Stern is the only manufacturer that's actually making arcade pinball machines because of their operating system. Can you elaborate on that better for the listener?
    14:29
    Well, yeah, they're just not making PC-based machines. And I know that PC-based arcade games have been a thing for 20, 30 years.
    14:39
    But at least to my experience, and I feel like most people's experience, it's just an inherently less robust board set for hardcore 12 hours a day sitting there running use. Not saying that, you know, to any of these operators who might have JJPs on location or might have an American pinball on location, something running a P-Rock, you know, that it's not reliable. But Stern makes the games that are, you know, geared towards, you know, arcade operators. that's kind of why to me as you know to my specific collecting kink I think that Stern games while they might not be the fanciest even at their top levels especially with some of the new stuff in the market right now they're the most authentic they're the workhorse of the industry so you know when you buy a Stern you know that you're buying something even when you buy it the premium or the limited edition trim that you can probably set on a floor in an arcade, turn that thing on, and let it run for a week and have a reasonably good chance that you're going to get there at the end of the week for your earnings and your wipe down, and that machine is still going to be running like a top. Right. Absolutely. And the other thing, too, with Stern, to add on to what you're saying, is just the ability to get it right away. And that helps a lot with operators because when they order something and they want to have it in their arcade right away, you're not waiting three months, four months down the road to get it. You can get it within a month, and it's delivered, and it's set up, and it's ready to go. And I think that's where Stern has a huge advantage is their production facility and their output. It's just amazing to see how fast they can turn out games and really keep them at high quality as far as very little issues. And like Spencer said, a workhorse. I mean, I've had my bond here, of course, at a home environment. It's not going to have as many plays as an arcade. But when Jim tells me there's 18,000 plays on Star Wars and people are still playing it, that's pretty amazing. Yes, you've got to do your maintenance and your flipper rebuilds and stuff like that. But other than that, it's really incredible to see how many plays that they can get on those machines and not have many issues. This is kind of cross-manufacture, but I remember when I first got on the Pinside, it was like 1,000 years ago, but when I kind of got back on the Pinside and I was a little bit more serious, one of the threads that, like, I was super interested in was this guy who kind of had a running journal of, gosh, why am I, I'm thinking it was a Medieval Madness remake that he had in an arcade. and, like, he would put, like, a weekly update of, like, okay, this week I had to fix this target, this week I had to do this, I had to do that, but he would go over, you know, what a game on location goes through. I remember that thread. It was really cool, and it went forever before he finally, like, pulled the game or sold it or something, and I think it had 20,000 or 30,000 plays that made him his money several times over, which is fantastic. But, yeah, I think that what's cool about owning arcade machines at home is when you own real arcade machines at home. I have JJPs. I have an American.
    18:17
    You know, we'll get around to those. But, like, you know, I don't think those are any less great pinball machines. But to me, they just never have that authenticity of, like, this is, you know, this is a machine that spent time in an arcade. and they were all bought from collectors. You know, even my Stern. Actually, my Stern was a route machine for a short time. But, you know, yeah, it is one of those things where it's just like, or at least my Spike is. I don't think that my other Sterns, well, Transformers definitely did.
    18:50
    Anyways, I love getting machines that came out of arcades, you know, because to me that's the real thing. Like that's what I wanted to have at home. so you know Stern makes those you know Stern makes games that you know they go to arcades they get bought by operators and they make the themes that attract the masses although you know they didn't make Harry Potter right yeah and I mean we can all agree you know and it kind of sounds like we're a Stern family but in a way we are but I mean they make the games that we like to play and buy and, you know. And they're fun to shoot. The fun factor is high on those games. They are fun. They're fast. You know, they all have their unique character. Yes, there's some that have designs that are similar to other designs. And, of course, they nail it on the theming. They always put good themes.
    19:50
    So that's another huge plus that they have. But they do have the stern sameliness. They do have the stern sameliness. It comes and goes. Yes. So sometimes it feels like Stern does really unique stuff, which just gets patently rejected. And then sometimes it feels like, you know, they do the same games over and over and over. So I think that a lot of folks, especially the collectors, are starting to get thin on Stern's current offering. And I don't think that the Spike 3 changeover, which was the first time I'd ever seen them be like, other than like maybe Gottlieb back in the 80s, that a manufacturer came out and said, look at our new pinball machine platform. Right. But I don't think that Spike 3 ended up being different enough. It still feels like Spike 2 with a bigger screen. So it's questionable if Stern's going to come out with something that I think captures the imagination of the collectors and the players. Because as decent of a game as Fallout of the Empire is, it looks pretty skimpy next to the competition right now. And if you love Walking Dead, great, you have another chance to own it. But I think that if you're looking for a horror-themed game, you know, it doesn't look as exciting as it might have looked in a world where you can get Evil Dead.
    21:29
    And you can get Westchester or Winchester Mystery House, Westchester. Completely different theme there.
    21:38
    And Westchester Mystery House. It's fantastic. And you can get Beetlejuice. And another thing that's interesting about with CERN, too, is a lot of people always dock on them for saying, you know, oh, they don't have innovation, they do the same. But when I look back at all their games, they do have a really cool innovative thing or a Mac or something that is unique. Like, for example, Stranger Things, having the projection on the drop targets and on the different targets throughout the play field. That was really cool. And then the dinosaur, of course, in the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. That was really awesome. That's not even the best T-Rex in a Jurassic Park game. Right, right. Maybe you used to beat that back in the 90s. But here's the thing with innovation, right? Innovation in pinball is risky. Yeah, it is. Because everybody says, oh, I want innovation, and then a company comes out like Multimorphic and does something that's truly different and truly innovative, and then you have to spend the rest of your life convincing people that it's a real pinball machine. Uh-huh. Yeah. But Stern has done, to me, I think, the most innovative thing in pinball in the last 10 years. Yes.
    22:53
    You know what it is? Yeah, I know. What is it? It's the dragon, Dungeons and Dragons. No. That's really... Insider Connected. Okay. Insider Connected is probably the single biggest difference maker in pinball since they started putting LCD screens. And probably, in a weird way, it's even more important. I agree. Because that brings the community to the machine. And it worked. And it works, right? Yeah, it works. Works. Yeah, present time. I had a Spice game that didn't have Insider Kick. In fact, I had two, right? Because I had Ninja Turtles and I had Iron Maiden. and them not being connected made me not want them as much as I wanted my Black Knight Sword of Rage because it's the one game I have that when Stern does some sort of insider connected event I can run out and I can log on and I can participate right isn't that cool the coolest thing and like you can save your progress on games and get cool back you can save your progress on games yeah okay but I mean coming forward with other games because it started with Venom, and other games I'm sure will have that feature as well. But, yeah, you're right. I mean, it is a game changer. I love it too. Yeah, it's great.
    24:16
    But, yeah, I mean, I think the point is that Stern's the biggest, and they're definitely the ones who I think are taking the most advantage of the Internet, which is kind of crazy because you kind of figured that Stern would be the last ones to really get into that, and they were the ones who kind of – I think that they probably screwed everybody else because I think that when Insider Connected came out, at the time you had Scorebit. Yes. And Scorebit was okay, but then Insider Connected came out, and it's just like, oh, it's so much easier and better.
    24:54
    Right. Well, Scorebit is score-based, and Insider Connected is community-based. Well, Scorbit does that same kind of thing. I mean, at the base level, it's all about, you know, you can see what other people are doing. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Right? But not achievements, right? Right. Well, yeah, because I just don't think that that was their focus. Right. And I think that Stern took Insider Connected. They took what Scorbit was doing, and they took their Insider Connected, and they made it better and faster and easier and free. where score bet was only free if you had a J.J.P., or at least essentially free, right? Like, you don't have to pay for the basic level of Insider Connected. You only have to pay if you want, like, the leaderboards. Yeah, right.
    25:46
    And now, you know, that whole leaderboard thing for people with big collections of Stern games, like, that's probably super cool.
    25:54
    Yeah. I don't know. So I've got one Stern. I've got one Insider Connected Stern. But, yeah, so I haven't. Do you still have Ninja Turtles? No. Fuck that game. That's how you got rid of it. I was like, didn't you get rid of it a while ago? I traded Ninja Turtles for Galactic Tank Force. That's right. Okay. Which is a great game. Good choice. I don't know if that was an arguable choice by some people, but I really wanted to like Ninja Turtles, and I enjoy playing other people's Ninja Turtles, but that was a game I did not need to own at home. At least not sitting next to Black Knight Sword of Rage. It was sort of like, do you want a game that pisses you off Or do you want a game that really pisses you off Right Alright I think we said all we need to say About Stern for the moment I mean, we hit the high points You know So I think we'll move on to our next one And I just kind of put these in a relative order So JJP I'll say about JJP They came out of the gate And said, we're going to make you know, a bigger, better, shinier, fully featured game. And they did that with their first title, Wizard of Oz. I mean, every single person who's ever looked at that game for the first time, or for me, like, every time, like, damn, that's a world under glass. They put everything but the kitchen sink in that game. And they've continued to, you know, make some really beautiful, really stunning games. Great for the home collector. It's debatable on location, man. They're debatable on location And Like you know we talked about That's kind of where the rubber meets the road I mean you know for me I mean I love home games But they're still doing it And their latest release of You know I keep wanting to go back Harry Potter I keep wanting to go to Avatar I don't know why Because it's a beautiful game And a theme that nobody asked for But it's still a really fun really beautiful game You mean Avatar Harry Potter is a theme that everybody asked for. Yeah, no, that came everybody asked for. So finally they got a theme that everybody wanted.
    28:07
    And that hadn't happened since Guns N' Roses. I don't know. I think JJP has been good about their themes. I agree. I have a couple that you're sort of like, why would you do that? But for the most part, like, to me, the weirdest JJP theme is Godfather. Everybody agrees on that. That was weird. And it's not that Godfather is a bad theme. The truth is Godfather is kind of a cool theme. I just don't necessarily see that crossover right now between, like, pinball people and Godfather fans. Like, the Godfather. Godfather were baby boomers, not Generation X. Yeah. Right. I mean, I think that a lot of the pinball collectors are boomers. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like, that's all there is to it. Like, it's guys, you know, who are a little older than us. But, yeah, Gen X is definitely, like, you're looking at the Gen X or the millennial themes now. Right. I think that the guys making the decision are, you know, like, Godfather, how could we go wrong? Right. And I think it's a cool game, and I would like to own one. I like the Godfather. I like kind of going back to what Spencer was saying. With JJP, like, they make the collector game. Right. Yes. and I think that everybody who's got into that making collector games place, the Barrels of Funds, and now Spooky Pinball, like I think that they're following in JJP's footsteps because JJP didn't want to make the utilitarian workhorse machines. They wanted to make the magic machines, and they haven't always hit the mark.
    29:50
    But when they do hit the mark, they really hit the mark, And I think they kind of started off very aggressively with packed machines. And there were a couple machines there where I think that people felt like maybe they'd simplified. Maybe they were, I think maybe like pirates came out and they were just like, oh, dude, fuck this game. It's way too complicated to build. It's way too expensive. And so they kind of went the other direction, you know, with games that were probably a little less complicated. but it feels like maybe they've come back around because Harry Potter is definitely packed.
    30:26
    Avatar certainly had a lot going on and it's, you know, a great looking game. And I think that hopefully they're getting some good sales because it did feel like I can't speak to sales numbers because I don't have them, but it did feel like for a second, like, are they selling any of these? Right. You know, yeah. Guns N' Roses they sold a bunch of because it was, you know, a pandemic moment, and it was a theme that I think that people were ready for at the time, and they probably sold, you know, 5,000 or some of those. But after that, I think all they'd ever announced was that they'd sold 4,000 Wizard of Oz's at one point. Interesting. Which felt like a lot of games, right? That's a lot. Yeah, 4,000 is pretty good. But then it didn't feel like they sold very many Godfathers. It didn't feel like they sold very many Willy Wonkas. It didn't feel like they sold very many Toy Stories, although maybe they sold a whole bunch of them.
    31:26
    Oh, yeah. I know what the jankiest JJP is. Yeah. I want one. Dialed in? Dialed in. I love that game. It's great, but it's definitely the jankiest JJP. It's the jankiest, but it's for a person who is a Lawler fan and who can relate to all the other games, the previous one that we loved in the 90s, Whirlwind, Earthshaker, it all had homages to all of that in that game. That's why I like it. It's just got some sketchy-ass art. Oh, the art is terrible on it. Yeah, I agree on that. It's horrible. I mean, a guy with the jeans holding up a phone, I know, it's crazy, but it's just so, it's just a really interesting game, and they kind of went the experiment. Well, let's try a non-licensed theme and see how it goes. I think that was probably Lawler driving that. Lawler probably wanted to do something unlicensed. Sure, sure. Guys earned it. And I liked the game. I think it's a great game. I love it every time I play it. It's phenomenal. It's great because it's easy to understand. It tells you what to shoot, but it's hard to get to the wizard mode. It definitely has a lot of challenge to it. And it's got mechs galore. It's got the, you know, it's got magnets. It's got the, what do you call that, you know, the 3D effect, like a hologram. It's got the little theater thing. Yeah, the theater thing, yeah. It's got the ball. It's got all the different ball paths. It's got the weird little.
    33:01
    Mechanic. That's soft working. Was it the first one with the camera? I think so, yeah. It was the first one with the camera. They put in the camera, which has become a thing. For the selfie mode to make the stupidest faces, which I do all the time. And it had that app. It had an app. And it had an app, which if you ever got to work, I always wanted to try that. I don't think it works anymore. I don't think you can download it anymore. Okay, okay. What I don't like about JJPs, and I'll speak to this being a JJP owner, is that they're really cool machines to own, right? They're intricate. it. The menus are very detailed and they tell you everything that they need to know.
    33:43
    But they are just basically a PC in a pinball machine shape box. And therefore, like every once in a while, your machine will just decide that it doesn't work.
    33:57
    And, you know, the CMOS battery will go out. And so you have to go in there and you have to take the machine apart and you have to swap out the CMOS battery and then you have to, you know, hopefully it'll turn back on after you do a janky jumpstarting maneuver with a paper clip.
    34:13
    And I hate that. Like, to me, that is completely unacceptable from a product that costs what those machines cost and is geared towards a higher end collector. Right. I just talked to somebody just about that, and he had three games, one from his friend, two of his, that did not turn on. And it was because the CMOS battery had to be changed. It was dead. Yeah, well, and it's not even just that you change the CMOS battery. It's that you have to change the CMOS battery and then jam a paper clip into your power supply. Oh, my God. Because they don't put a power switch on there. Oh, wow. You know, I'm dealing with the same thing on my Multimorphic, but on my Multimorphic, at least there's a power switch. So you just press the power button and the internal PC comes on. On my American Pinball, I actually went in and changed the BIOS so it didn't know to turn itself on. There's a button. You just press the button and turn it on. On your JJP, that doesn't exist. And it's just, to me, the stupidest oversight. It probably would have cost them, you know, a buck to put that switch on and then maybe another buck to route it to where you could, you know, pop open your back box, switch that battery, and then just hit the on button without taking half the machine apart.
    35:36
    I don't know that. If I own one, I don't know. And then when you're taking the machine apart, you have to, you know, remove screws from the case above the CPU. you have to unplug the back box light strip or you're going to damage it, which I managed to do on Pirates and we had to fix it. You know, my Guns N' Roses took six months off from just working for whatever reason. I think it was the power supply. But, you know, we still had to go through and troubleshoot everything else. It's just, man, you know, all of my PC-based pinball machines have given me problems at one time or the other. And I just hate it. And you can tell, too, because when you boot it, you got all this code popping up, and it looks like the computer's turning on. Yeah, my P3, both my JGFs, actually Pirates, the big problem with Pirates is that the power, not the power supply, the sound board loves to come unplugged, and you have to go in and plug the sound board connector back in.
    36:37
    Guns N' Roses and Galactic Tank Force. Although, again, Galactic Tank Force was almost 100% my fault because I was in there monkeying around with things. But, yeah, every single one of my PC-based pinball machines has at one time or the other just decided to take a vacation. Were you holding a screwdriver next to the boards when you were doing it?
    36:56
    No, I plugged in a key. I mean, this is something you had to fuck up, right? Like, I was trying to update it, and I don't think I got a good download of the code. But I thought that I had screwed something up. And so I went in and I took a keyboard and I plugged it in and I went into the BIOS because I don't know a lot about computers, but I know just enough to cause bigger problems. And I just, I managed to reset the BIOS. And when you reset the BIOS, what you do is you turn off the setting that's telling the internal PC, hey, when you get power, turn on. So at this point, it's like it's waiting for you to press the power switch. And it's the same thing that's happening with my, with my multi-morphic. The CMOS battery went out And I don know why these CMOS batteries on some day last forever and on some they last for like two years And to get the CMOS battery on the Multimorphic like you have to pull the freaking monitor out of it And you can't pull the monitor out of it without, you know, getting, you know, a nut driver in there. And so like, and then going in and re-setting the BIOS on the Multimorphic is weird because the freaking monitor is the play field. So I just haven't gone through and fiddled with that enough to reset my CMOS. And so, like, every time I want to play my Multimorphic, I have to open up the speaker panel and press the power button, which isn't that hard, but it's just like, oh, gosh, this is annoying. I wish, you know, like on my Bally Williams or something, if I have to change the battery so it doesn't lose the setting, the game still fucking works. Yeah, that's such a good point. It's kind of going back to, like, the early 80s, though, where you'd turn on your machine and it would say adjust failure. Yeah. And you're like, what the hell does adjust failure mean? It doesn't mean anything. It means that your backup battery's dead. Turn it on and off again, it'll work.
    38:52
    I did that for like six months with my jokers. Right. You're like, what the hell is adjust failure? Yeah, exactly. I knew it was, but no, I'll tell you real quick because I joke with the fucking screwdriver because I did that real early on with my Royal Rumble, and I ended up blowing a transistor.
    39:12
    But I had a nearby route operator who I befriended. He's like, oh, dude, because I gave him an old game. It was a pinball pool because the play field and the cabinet were in really bad shape. The other boards were immaculate. And I said, I'm going to get rid of this thing. Do you want the boards and stuff? He goes, oh, dude, what do you want for it? I said, no, it's guillotine, man. You've helped me out so much. And then when I needed that, I was like, oh, dude, I got you. He came over and fixed it that day. But so, yeah, new guy learning, don't keep the game on and hold the screwdriver while you're adjusting shit. Yeah, you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. I have nothing but respect for the guys who are, like, so good at teching, like especially, like, during mid-tournaments that they can, like, pop their machines open and rebuild flippers and shit while they're on. I don't like to change light bulbs with my machine.
    40:02
    I'll get in there every once in a while, you know, and I'll do something kind of stupid and feel around inside. a machine looking for like a specific light bulb or something. But yeah, in general, if it's, you know, I've got big hands. So like if I, if it's like, I feel like I have to force my hand in somewhere, like, yeah, I turn the machine off. But yeah, just to kind of sum up on JJP though, like great games, generally super packed, you know, Harry Potter is, is obviously great.
    40:30
    And they're probably, you know, hopefully they can follow that up with a, with another banger because it feels like they're doing really, really good things.
    40:40
    Can't wait to see what Steve Ritchie does next. Me too. And I just have to say, I know people are subjective about the art, but I do love the World Under Glass and JJPs. And just when you see it next to another machine, you just know it's a JJP. Oh, yeah. It just has that beautiful look to it. Like you said, for a collector, it's got that collector bling, as you would say. Yeah, they're Cadillacs. They really are. They're Cadillacs. For all the good and the bad that goes with that, Cadillacs are definitely a status symbol, especially here in America. But, yeah, they're not well known for being reliable and serviceable in the long run. Correct.
    41:28
    Like I said, I love my Guns N' Roses, and it's a good thing, too. And I love my Pirates, which is awesome. Um, and you know, there are definitely other JJPs that I would love to have, uh, mostly just dialed in, uh, or mostly dialed in because I think that that, like you were saying, Mark, that's, that's a heck of a game and you can get it for a good price. One of the nice things I think that you run into, uh, if you're a JJP shopper is it doesn't feel like, you know, they're expensive, but you can get one. Right. Except for maybe Pirates of the Caribbean, I don't think that there's any JJP out there that's really hard to get.
    42:12
    That's true. Yeah. You know, maybe the collector's edition is hard to get. But, like, you can get the middle edition, the limited edition, or you can get their basic edition when they do a basic edition.
    42:27
    And, you know, a couple of the manufacturers we're going to touch on later on, they make great games, but it's feeling like there's beginning to be some problems getting them. And I'm going to say one more thing about JJP, which I want to applaud them, and I know I said this before. They could have really jacked up the price for Harry Potter, but they gave it to everybody who can afford it, even an arcade edition, which still includes all the gameplay elements. I thought that was really cool because it really gives everybody a chance to have their own Harry Potter dream theme without breaking the box.
    43:05
    It's still expensive, right? It's not like they made a bargain edition. Here's the thing, though, and I will give – I'll kind of back you up on this. I'll give JJP all the credit in the world because where I do think JJP went off the rails and where public opinion kind of turned against them was when they got rid of their basic edition, right? Yeah. Because they had pretty much – I don't know when they kind of started, but they had kind of went for like that Stern model where they had a basic edition game, which was pretty affordable and seemed like it was probably operator oriented.
    43:44
    They had a middle edition, which was their limited edition, which was like, you know, 5000 limited. So it wasn't super limited. And then they had their collector's edition. And then it was like somewhere along the line, like right after Guns and Roses, I think. or maybe it was Willy Wonka. I know they did a standard edition of Wonka, but eventually they said, you know what, we're not selling enough of this basic edition. We're going to get rid of it.
    44:10
    And I think a lot of people felt a little betrayed by that, even though if you looked at how they sold, they sold barely any of the basic edition, and it was like a waste of resources to re-engineer. So when they brought back the full-featured basic edition, like I have the basic pirates, And it's got all the gameplay of the limited. It just doesn't have some of the bells and whistles. I think doing that for Harry Potter was smart because even though it's an expensive basic edition, it still feels like, hey, there's an entry-level option for those of us who aren't like elite Uber collectors. Right. I'm just saying that they could have, because of the theme, they could have jacked up the prices just to price gouge, but they didn't. I think that would have been an enormous mistake. Yeah. It does surprise me, though, like kind of going with it. Not that they would have jacked up their price. I figured they would have stuck with their usual kind of pricing thing. But I'm surprised they didn't go for a super LE. Right. You know, a $25,000 Bond 60th sort of move. Mm-hmm. I'm glad they didn't, though. I think it was smart. I think it rehabilitated their image in a big way. I think that people right now kind of are feeling better about Jersey Jack than they had the last couple few years. Yeah, agreed. Well, they fixed some things, like I said. They fixed the flippers, and that makes all the world of difference because I tell you, I played Harry Potter just a couple days ago, and, God, that's such a good game, such a good game. It's ugly, but it's fun.
    45:46
    So I'm going to move us on. I think we've pretty much said everything we want to say about JJP. I'm good. Okay. Yeah, so we're going to move on to Spooky.
    45:56
    And, you know, Spooky, everybody has been rooting for Spooky since day one. I think the community at large. I know I certainly have. You know, because Charlie is just a good guy. His son, Bud, his daughter, Squirrel, his wife, KT, you know, the whole family. The extended family, their employees, and, you know, guys like Ben Heck are all just, like, really cool people, really good, down-to-earth, you know, salt-to-the-earth Midwest folks. And the little guy We wanted to root for him and we still do And they came out of the gate And they had some cool games And it's like okay this is cool But you know we want to see bigger better Faster more and with every game They've developed They've improved They've gotten better quality control They've gotten better quality of games They've gotten you know better licenses And themes And better theme integration And you know better upper play fields and no upper play fields. They've continued to progress as a company. It's been great to see. I continue to root for them.
    46:59
    Their last couple games, they know their market. They know their audience. They under-promise and over-deliver, and as far as theme and theme integration, the last two titles, which is Evil Dead and now, of course, we haven't actually played it yet, but it's just been released, Beetlejuice. I'm looking at, you know, Mark and I were talking online the other day, and I know you and I have talked this week, Dan. Jeez Louise, talk about theme integration. They're knocking it out of the park. Incredible theme integration. Incredible. Yeah, in every aspect, toys, mechs, artwork, lighting, sound, you know, everything. Call outs, video assets, audio assets, toppers, holy cow, you know. They're just unbelievable. Unbelievable. But as Dan just said, you can't get it. You can't get it. It's gone. Yeah. And part of that is part of that. That's what you say. They under-promise and over-deliver. Yeah. And they under-produce. And that sucks because Spooky makes, like, sweet games. Yeah. And I get it that they're a small company, and I get that they're, you know, that they're the quintessential boutique manufacturer, and I get that they make what they love, and I super appreciate that. And I think that if you walk the whole spooky pinball journey,
    48:35
    it's a tale of high highs and low lows, right? Mm-hmm. But they have been on the rise. Like, you love the company. You love the family behind it. I missed the spooky podcast because it was super fun. But I love the fact that, like, Bug has taken over, or Corwin, I guess he's a grown-up now, has taken over the family business, and they're running with it. Like, they're making the games that you can feel the passion. Like, you can feel how much they wanted to make Evil Dead. You can feel how much they wanted to make Beetlejuice. And I think that was almost 100% like Franchi. Right. I mean, the best way to describe Spooky is, like, they're making a homebrew that everybody can have. Yeah, like, if you watch. Right? That's a good point. Yep. If you watched, like, that Making of featurette, like, everybody was excited about it. But Francie was like, fucking Beetlejuice, man. Like, this is what I wanted to make. Yep. And, you know, he did that treatment, that Translight treatment, you know, 10 years ago. you can feel that like they are 100% invested in the games that they make. But like now it's, they've kind of become the collector's darling because, you know, they sold out of a game, you know, for a minute, everybody was sort of like, oh yeah, you can get Scooby-Doo's and, you know, the Halloween Ultraman thing was a little sketch, uh, you know, and I don't think that they sold out of Looney Tunes, uh, which is surprising. That's a big thing. Texas chainsaws. But, yeah, every time Spooky has a sellout, their following game also sells out because the FOMO is so strong. But this time, it was, like, two bangers in a row. Yeah. I mean, they haven't had anything that had, like, this kind of, like, furor around it since Rick and Morty. And, like, let's be honest. These last two games are way better of games than Rick and Morty was. Like Rick and Morty was a great theme in search of a good play field, which I hate to say because I love Scott Denisey. But, yeah, Spooky's like they're definitely like people are just like, oh, man, they're just trying to embarrass Stern. And I think Spooky's trying to embarrass J.J.P.
    51:02
    Maybe. Because if you look at Harry Potter, which I will give all the credit in the world, that game is packed. and then you look at Evil Dead or you look at Beetlejuice, it might not be as packed, but it looks a lot better doing it. Right. And it's got a lot of cool shit to shoot, whether you're shooting that front porch with the lock or you're shooting, you know, that sandworm looks super cool and looks like you can interact with it a bunch of different ways and just all kinds of goodies on those games. and I think that they're, you know, making the games. Like, I think that you said it the best, Mark. Like, it's a homebrew that you can buy. Yeah. It's a licensed homebrew. Yep. It's a passion project. Everybody is all in at Spooky when it comes to the theme and what they want to do. And the other thing is Spooky listens to their customers. They really, I mean, they're always on the forum. And that's hard to do sometimes because you make promises you can't keep, and, you know, they're careful with that. But it's great to see them on pin side, and they chime in on certain things. And they are really doing a great job, like I said, in theme integration.
    52:18
    And I'll tell you something. This is what really blew me away with Spooky is there's always hype about a game, and you're always having these hopeful dreams of what it's going to look like. And then they reveal it, and you're like, oh, okay, it's okay. This one exceeded my expectations. I did not at all envision how much they packed into this game for Beetlejuice and Evil Dead. Oh, yeah. The last couple, like, there were no misses. The only miss for me on Beetlejuice, I think we talked about this a little bit, I don't think that the cab, I mean, the cab looks great, but, I mean, it's not really like, it's just more art. It doesn't look like a side art to me.
    53:06
    And not, oh, man, not getting custom call-outs from Keaton sucks. I mean, don't get me wrong. I didn't expect them to get custom call-outs from Keaton. It was like my fingers crossed ultimate wish list thing. But, man, how great would he have been? Yeah. Especially after how great Bruce Campbell was. Oh, that would have been cool. And how great when they got Roiland to actually do all the call-outs for Rick and Morty. Like having real dialogue by the real actor playing their character in their game, you know, it's just, it takes me back to the Next Generation days, you know, when we were talking about this earlier, Spencer, where it was just like Star Trek The Next Generation got like nine different actors to come in and do all custom call-outs for their machines. That does make a huge difference. I have to admit. It's, you know, the immersion. But yeah, it's great. And the only other thing I think that Spooky kind of leaves me a little bit smooth on is that I don't think that their use of the screen is as good as some of the other companies. Right. We didn't mention that with Jersey Jack, but yeah, for sure. I think GZRP's the master of it. I think Stern's getting better at it. They're kind of hit and miss. I think that Spooky's always looks a little amateurish, but they definitely are moving in the right direction. Yeah. And they got a new panel now. They get an IPS panel, so it's better resolution and better viewing angle. A screenier screen for more screen stuff. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, the other thing, too, is how they've evolved from their shot layouts to their reliability. You know, they're listening and – The reliability thing is always a little sketchy or spooky. Okay, okay. I've heard good things lately about people that – Jason, a buddy of ours buys, not your Jason, but our Jason down here buys every Spooky, and I don't think he's ever had one that hasn't had some problem. And I mean, fundamental game not working problem. Right.
    55:12
    Okay. Well, I'm hopeful for them, and I really like how they provide great customer service, and they can do that when they're a smaller company. When they get bigger, that's when things start going downhill. not true like bigger companies can afford more customer service spooky cares they grew up doing this they understand collectors you know what everybody in pinball I'm sure understands pinball but I don't think that anybody running a pinball company has lived it like the guys who run spooky yeah and I'm through it all the way from so they do it right and they're smart they understand how toxic pinball is. They don't let it bother them. They know what they can do and what they can't do. Let's be honest, they're probably the most improved pinball company year over year over year and it's because they're growing up in front of our eyes.
    56:15
    The guys who are running the company now, they're the youngest. I don't know if they're the hungriest. I'm sure they're hungry. They want to be good.
    56:24
    And, yeah, just every single release you see just double-digit increases in quality. And they make 80% of their game in-house. They have that one injection molding. They build that game. That's what I'm saying. It goes all back to Maru. They do everything in-house. They build that game 100%. You can tell that they learn things from this game that they took into the next, that they took into the next. And so now Beetlejuice is the culmination of they've got the best sculptor on the speed dial. They've got the best artist in-house.
    57:01
    Their design sensibility has gotten better and better and better. And they're so, like, in tune with the community and in tune with what they want to see that they can put it into a game without necessarily worrying about, like, is it going to break the bank? And the final thing we should mention is in terms of what you get for your buck, you know, don't get me wrong. That $10,000 Harry Potter is stuffed with stuff. You know, the last couple of Spookys, like their base prices are $10,000. I know. The price is really good. Your base for your buck is definitely there. Yeah, and they're stuffed with stuff. Yeah. And they usually have one or two models just from aesthetics, but they keep everything in the game. Well, they have the one model, but then you can add, what, three things to it. Yeah, copper, buttercab, and what was the other thing? Glass. Oh, glass. Ghost glass. Sorry, ghost glass. Spooky glass. Spooky glass, ghost glass. Ghost glass. Yeah. Hey, Dan, because this will be an inside thing. I mean, I know it. You already know it.
    58:08
    Did you show Jamie the trailer for Beetlejuice? You know, Jamie is a member of, like, the Apple pinball community. Yeah. So she sends that stuff to me. Okay. Because I want to ask about the Polaroid in the game and what she thinks of that. She didn't mention it to me. That's so odd because if the listener doesn't know, and I only learned this a couple years ago at the show, because she's like, she had the little, she collects old Polaroid cameras. She's in a club. Like, I'm online. community. And she had a little miniature, tiny little Polaroid camera. And she snapped a picture. I thought she was just playing. And it pops out a little tiny, like miniature photo and it actually develops. And I'm like, that is the coolest thing ever. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, that really works. She goes, yeah. It's like... I don't remember. I mean, was the Polaroid camera a big part of Beetlejuice? It was because Lydia, the character Lydia, played by God, I just got to draw a blank. Winona Ryder. I like Beetlejuice, but it's probably a movie I've seen half a dozen times, but it wasn't like one of my all-time super favorite movies. The thing that, honestly, I take away from Beetlejuice is just like Michael Keaton is great. I don't remember Alan Baldwin when ever being so young. Yeah.
    59:39
    Yeah, man. That's how old that movie is. And I haven't seen it in years, and I love the movie. I've got to watch it again. But, no, it's just funny because the character, Liddy, was going around taking pictures in the house, and she ended up getting pictures of the ghost. And so that's why that's there. I just saw that and went, I wonder if Jamie's going to go, you have to buy this. Yeah. Interesting. Well, another thing that's really cool is the attention to detail, not just the looks of it, but the actual presentation of it. Because I was listening to a podcast, and I didn't even know this, but when I first saw the Worm Mac, it was jittery, and the reason they made it jittery is because it looks like stop motion.
    60:22
    Yeah, like in the movie. That's freaking cool. I know that sounds like a document didn't make it a feature.
    60:28
    That's pretty cool when you think about it. I like the fact that it interacts. with the games. Even in moments that wouldn't be like stand-alone moments, like it dances when they do the banana song. And it dances when it does the when they do the track mode. So I'm like, okay, that's pretty freaking cool. And it eats the ball.
    60:55
    And it eats the ball, man. That sounded like a very pointed thing. Yeah, Spooky is doing the right thing for the collectors. That is for sure. Keep doing what you're doing. Probably not seeing a lot of those on location except for maybe like your gentleman operator collections. Right. The higher end barcades.
    61:18
    Or pinball basements that happen to be located in Reno, Nevada. There you go. Yes. I know. Pinball Underground. Yeah, Pinball Underground. We were going to have one.
    61:34
    Unfortunately, the person who wanted to get it, he couldn't get it because, yeah, it was gone. Really? But eventually we will be able to. You'll get one. Yeah. You'll get one. Eventually.
    61:46
    Yep. But we'll see you at the shows. Somebody will bring in a show or Spooky will. You never know. I mean, and then the new thing comes along, and then all of a sudden that's not interesting anymore, and then they go on the secondhand market. But I am super excited, and it's going to be a long wait to see it when it does arrive. We do have two people getting it here, so we will get to experience it. Evil Dead is probably my number one most wanted game right now. Oh, so good.
    62:16
    It's so good. Yeah. And I'm not even an Evil Dead fan, but I'll tell you, that game is just – and I think that's what you said, Dan. You said it. You said moments. Spooky creates games for moments. And that's what I love the most about them is they really give you that exciting wow factor that you got when you're a kid or young adult, in this case, in the 90s, playing the Williams and the Valley games. They're bringing that magic back.
    62:46
    All right. We're over an hour. On to the next. Yep, on to the next. So we're on to American. Broken. Broken, yes. we're not really sure what's going on with them and they put out some really good games and some games where we're just like what the fuck yeah you know there was a moment Mark's been an American pinball owner I'm an American pinball owner they're good machines oh yeah they're solid and heavy yeah they work well Uh, you know, the fit and finish was way nicer than I thought that it was going to be. And honestly, I liked what they were doing. Like they were doing original themes. They were doing quirky stuff. Uh, and it was affordable, you know, it was Stern pro priced, uh, for probably, you know, something that was a little bit closer to a Stern premium in terms of their quality. And the themes were, you know, they weren't great, but I always thought Oktoberfest was kind of a cool theme. Houdini's kind of a cool theme. I love Hot Wheels. You know, La Hala's kind of neat. Galactic Tank Force. They didn't really, like, stick their foot into it until Barry O. And even Barry O, like, to a specific person is probably kind of a neat theme, although. I don't think he's a bad shooter. I think it's fun to play. I just wish they had a better. It's just so weird and goofy. But, like, yeah, after Barry O and just maybe the whole David Fix debacle or maybe the parent company got tired of, you know, paying the bills. Like, yeah, you know, they scrapped Cuphead is what I think the rumor is. That really sucks. When I saw the pictures, I saw a little leak of that. Man, that looks like a good game. So hopefully they bring it back in the future All the other podcasters who got to play it says it was Maybe there's a prototype out there we'll get to see Someday or it'll show up at Expo Nothing ever really disappears in pinball That's true I think Cuphead was a theme that like I don't care about I know it's a video game thing So everyone's like oh what do you think of Cuphead I'm like I never played it heard it's hard But yeah now it's just Are they going to make another game Are they not you know you can get a Galactic Tank Force Signature Edition brand new for like $7,500 that's a pretty good deal that's a really good deal you got a cool tank in your room yeah if you want a machine that looks like a quote unquote cool tank I've got the Lux Edition so it looks like a pinball machine but yeah so I just I think AP had a lot of promise but I think that they were on their course You know, who works there anymore? We know they have a customer service guy, so good for them. I would be leery in getting a machine from them just because the lack of people. I'd buy a machine from them tomorrow for the price if I was really in the market for a brand-new machine. Yeah. Because I think the games are good. Yeah. I like all the releases I've played I enjoy, you know. Yeah. I think that for $5,500, $6,000, you know, like that was kind of a sweet spot for them. And they always said when they first started, they said they're just going to do original themes and never do like big IPs. Remember? Yeah, just try to get out there with an affordable game. And I think that when they, I think that they got so high on their own supply when they were doing Tank Force that when they said, you know, they did that weird launch and then they did the whole thing where they made a $16,000 edition of it after it had already kind of tanked. Yeah. And it just gave, it just gave the collector community an opportunity just to turn on them where before everybody was at least sort of ambivalent about them. But yeah, I don't know. I think that, uh, I think that they're probably a no factor going forward. I mean, I would love to see, I would love to see some of the themes that they have kind of hinted at, you know, come out, but I don't think they're going to. It's too bad because I really was rooting for them being an owner of Hot Wheels and talking up about them and I just think it just had a lot to do with just management and just choices they made. It's too bad because I feel sorry for some people that got hired there and then no promise there and just these weird themes and And I don't know. It's just too bad. I just really wish they could be around because I know they could have a banger theme and just really, really get up there again. But right now it's just like there's this lull and we have no idea what's happening. There's no communication. So it's like people just forgot about them as being even a pinball company anymore.
    67:56
    Right. I still feel like your Hot Wheels review was like our best moment. And it was also the most ridiculously, unexpectedly detailed Hot Wheels review that we ever got. Oh, yeah. My wife makes fun of it every time about when I talk about the box for 10 minutes. So, yeah.
    68:18
    Hey, it was thorough. It was quite thorough. You could tell how amazed you were. It was a great game. And you were so into it. And I had no issues with it. You know, the LEDs going out once in a while, and I just had to reboot the game. But other than that, it was a workhorse. It worked great. I loved it. At the same price of a Stern Pro, basically. Well, that's what got it. I'll tell you, that's what made me buy it was the price factor. I was able to afford that machine. I couldn't even afford it. I wanted a premium, of course, from a Stern. And I was like, well, here's one that's available. And I couldn't beat the price. And that's what got me into it. And I was able to sell it more than what I got it for. So, hey. Oh, nice. There you go. Win-win. Well, I think we've said all we can about America for now, and we all like them. We all hope for the best for the future, but we're being cautiously optimistic. On to, and these guys. I didn't sound cautiously optimistic. No, you didn't. I sounded incredibly pessimistic. I think Mark and I are cautiously. Or realistic is the right word. I believe that realistic is probably inaccurate. Probably the right word, yeah. On to the next one. And these guys literally came out of nowhere more than once. And that's barrels of fun, which no one still likes the name. But we've kind of grown. It's grown on us, I think, just because they came out of nowhere and dropped, what, two years ago? Dropped Labyrinth. Great team, great team integration. They put out a good game. And then they kind of just shut up and let the game sell. And it sold. It's doing well. And next thing you know, oh, hey, Dune's out. And we got to play an early prototype. Everything on that game, including their own, I don't know what they call it, their high-gloss butter cabinet version. Holy cow. At first, that looks beautiful. And then they barely got Dune on the line, and they go and drop. No one, literally no one in the pinball community ever saw this coming in a million years, a Winchester Mystery House. You know? And I don't think anyone's played it yet. The Westchester Mystery House. Westchester Mystery House, yeah. Cheerio, Bob's your uncle. You know what I mean? These guys, in two years, they're dropping three games. All of them are really awesome. They're delivering on what they promised. They're kind of doing everything right. And everybody incorporated into their company has a pretty rich history in pinball and video game and the entertainment industry. So, I mean, I know a lot less about them, but I like everything they're doing thus far. I love these guys. Yeah, they're keeping their prices middle of the road. They're not the cheapest. They're not Stern Pro pricing, but they're not, you know, they're not the Jersey Jacks either. They're kind of in between, right around the price point-ish, maybe a little bit more than the Stern Premium. Right. Yeah. I really like this company. I was very impressed how they did their first game and how they marketed it, how they already had them ready to be shipped.
    71:31
    And I'm telling you, I played Elaborate just last night, and, damn, that's a good game. That's really fun. And theme integration is great. They bring the sculpts back, like other companies that were seeing that more and more. But definitely, they were bringing that 90s vibe of everything under the glass, world under the glass, whatever you want to call it. And code is good, innovative stuff. I played the sawball mode, which is really cool. I forgot exactly the technical term, but you basically change the options when you start the game to stall ball mode, and it tells you when to switch players after you stall the ball. And then they'll put shots on the play field that if you hit, you get eliminated. So if you hit it by accident, then you have to be out. Is that an elaborate? Yeah, that's elaborate.
    72:29
    Yeah. Yeah, it's a mode or it's a game feature that you can switch holding the right flipper button down, and then you can switch it. So it has co-op mode, but it also has a stall ball mode, which is really cool. So I thought that was neat.
    72:46
    But, yeah, I really like this company. I'm excited to see what they come out with. Dune, I wish there were more around. I really want to play this game now in its finalized state because I played it, of course, at Golden State, and it was breaking down a lot, and it was a prototype, and they were getting feedback from that and everything like that. But, man, when I shot it, I was like, damn, this is a fun shooter, and the ball is smooth as glass going through it, and then having that satisfying shot if you can get it through the worm and when it's down and all that stuff, yeah, a lot of fun.
    73:21
    But they listen to the customers too, and they're very, very excited about what they produce and they're passionate.
    73:31
    And like you said, that mystery wind chair, Chester House, holy cow, that's crazy how amazing that is as far as how they came out of nowhere. And they made the limited release. I'm sure there's a lot of people upset about that, not being able to get it. But it is what it is. But I'm excited to see what their next big banger theme is. And it just, they bring that fun back. So Barrels of Fun, I like that name a lot for their company. So I'm all rooting for them and can't wait to see what they come out with next.
    74:03
    I can't wait to play Winchester Mystery House. Same here. Flatbush is fine. I mean, I admit it's a beautiful game. It's super well integrated. I love all the mechanical doohickeys in it. And I haven't gotten to spend any quality time on Dune, but Dune looks cool too. Yeah, they seem to be doing everything right, you know. I think the biggest thing is, yeah, don't fall into that trap of, I mean, I get it with Winchester. It's, like, such a weird thing. But, like, don't make games that people can't get. Yeah. You know, like, of their three games, just the weirdness of the theme attracts me to Winchester. Because it's a very, like, Northern California-centric, like, theme. but you know of course uh collectors you know right now are going to snap up anything with a limited release because the FOMO is strong and you know they always feel like there's a maybe they feel like there's a flip opportunity but uh part of me was like it's a weird theme looks cool you know it's it's designed by it's a tournament player you know by Carl and Carl's a cool cat. So it's like part of me is like, man, I wish I had the, I wish I had the wherewithal, you know, to be able just to go ahead and say, yeah, I'll drop 12,000 bucks on this right now. Um, but you know, let's see what happens. It's like, well, 500 are gone. It's like, oh, well, I guess that uh I guess that that proof that right now you know if it limited and it looks good people will buy it That cool So yeah I hope to get my hands on one before show season next year because I think that game looks fantastic Well, if you want to come and play one, there's going to be one in Incline. They can let you know. Nice.
    75:58
    I'm sure I'll take you up on that. And then I think the other thing kind of going back to what you said was like it's limitless potential, right? So you're just hoping that these guys will get a theme that you're in love with, because so far it really feels like they're three for three. Yeah.
    76:16
    You know, like they're doing cool things with every game. Definitely a company that has looked around pinball and, yeah, they want to do something, you know, maybe a little bit better than Stern, but they're probably not quite going as crazy. I don't know. Maybe you could say they're going as crazy as Jersey Jack. I mean, I think that when you first saw Labyrinth, everybody was just sort of like, oh, dude, like with the little characters popping out and a massive amount of sculpts and, you know, the cool diverters that then became captive ball traps. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think everybody was kind of like, oh, damn, this has really got a lot going on. Yep. Interesting that there are two fairly new releases that both have sandworms. I was just going to say that. Sandworms, you love them, right? Yep. I love them myself on my pinball machine.
    77:15
    Yep. That is funny. That is an interesting coincidence. I think I'm going to take this opportunity to, this is, I'm going to pull the bus off to a dirt road. Well, no, not really. But out of the three of us, nobody can speak more intelligently and with more experience on our next company than you, Dan, because you're the only one who's owned a multimorphic. Oh, P3.
    77:40
    Could I love it more? Honestly, I super enjoy my P3. I know I've been critical, and I know that it's – sometimes I've run a foul of the P3 community because I will complain about things that I think need to be complained about, like taking out the monitor to replace the CMOS battery. But I think that they're just getting better with every release.
    78:10
    You know, I think that for the longest time I thought that the P3 was neat, but I really wouldn't entertain owning one. Then Heist came around, and I was all like, oh, Heist is kind of cool looking. and then Weird Al came out and I was like, well, you guys got me, so now I have to buy one.
    78:26
    And, yeah, man, Weird Al was great. I love that game. Mine is all set up right now. Final Resistance had a great run.
    78:38
    Heist is fun. I got to spend some time. You know, I had that pre-release portal for the show and I really liked it.
    78:45
    I haven't spent a lot of time on Princess Bride, but it looks good. and I'm sure that whatever they come up with after Portal will probably be another banger. It just feels like, you know, for a platform that's, you know, 10 years old, you know, it still feels like it's the future of pinball. Mm-hmm. You know, it takes more chances and it does crazier things, and nothing about P3 is easy. you know it's definitely one of the more complex machines like certain things about it are easy i guess refolding rebuilding the flippers is really easy because you can just pull them out but you know like when you have to work on that thing it's big it's heavy you have to take it apart and that always annoys me because i think that maintenance is something that a modern pinball manufacturer should be mindful of but you know i think that it's it's a cool thing i just don't think it's for everybody. Right. And, you know, Mark's known people who've bought P3s for commercial use and have said, no, it's too complicated. It's not reliable enough. I can't do it. I know people who bought their P3s for personal use who were just like, yeah, too heavy, too complicated, too cumbersome. It's not going to be for me. So I think that, you know, if you see something about P3 and it, like, intrigues you and you're spending pinball money anyway, I think that P3 is cool, man. I think grab yourself a P3, grab yourself an art set, grab yourself final resistance, and grab yourself another module so you can swap stuff around, and there's a lot of fun to be had there.
    80:28
    So, yeah, I mean, you know, as far as the company goes, you know, you can talk to Jerry today. Yeah, you can talk to him directly. That's so true. You can talk to him directly, like immediately. He will address your concerns. He will address your complaints.
    80:51
    He will take your advice if it's worth taking. You can talk to the guys who are making the games. I mean, they're all passionate. They're all fantastic.
    81:03
    Join their Discord. Everybody is super engaged and super fun. And I think that when you buy a P3, you're really buying the community. Yes. And you're buying, you know, because the platform itself, again, it takes some effort to master. Like, there's a ton of shit that it does that I still don't know how to do. So, and you have to sit down and use your resources and, you know, go through the trouble to figure it out. But if you do, and like I said, I'm dealing with technical stuff on my machine right now that, you know, I try to do myself before I finally just give up and reach out for help. I already know what the answer is. I just haven't done it yet. But it's a really cool machine from the standpoint, weirdly enough, because it requires you to be an expert on it. It's not pinball for everybody. It's pinball for the kind of technically-minded aficionado who doesn't mind swapping modules and turning some screws. I mean, you have to do all that on any pinball machine anyway, but, and, and doing, doing an art swap, you know, to turn that one machine in your corner into a completely different unrecognizable machine, you know, so I have, I have, you know, I have a lot of respect for those guys and what they've accomplished. And I have a lot of respect for like what the platform has done. And the fact of the matter is it's one machine that can play like 20 different games now. That's possible. Eight or ten different modules.
    82:49
    So, yeah, there's really no limit to what you can do with your P3 if you like it. Or, you know, just get the game that you love, install it, and just leave it as Weird Al or leave it as Final Resistance. And, you know, it's still the machine that more people come up to in my garage and just go like, it and Tank Force, weirdly enough, are the machines that people are just like, dude, what the hell is this? Yeah, yeah. and you're just like, oh, this is called a P3. This is called a multimorphic. Here, try it out. Is it virtual pinball? No, it's real pinball. It just uses a display as the play field, but there's a real ball rolling around. It's real flippers and real bumpers. Right.
    83:32
    Are you – any word on your portal? I haven't ordered a portal. Oh, you didn't? Oh. No. Okay, okay. No, it's like $5,000, dude. Okay. I don't need the money. Yeah, remember they have two versions. They have the extended version that goes down where, like, the ramps and stuff go down further. Okay. Yeah, for the difference in price. Like, if you're going to order a portal, order the extended. Yeah, absolutely. Good point. The only reason that you shouldn't order an extended is if you, like, swap modules, like, every single day. Okay. If I ever, like, get serious about selling a couple games and I decide I need to buy something else, I'll buy a portal. It's 100% worth your money. I really enjoyed my time with the prototype, and I miss it. I did go through after the show, and I finally just took my entire P3 apart and tightened up a bunch of screws, and I put the whole Weird Al kit back on it, and I finally fixed my broken Weird Al topper. Oh, okay. Because it was that Weird Al concert season. and, you know, for me, it's just sort of like Weird Al is the reason that I bought it. So it'll always, my P3 will always be Weird Al. I almost want to buy a second P3 so that I can have it be Portal or Final Resistance or whatever because I don't want to take Weird Al apart. Yeah. But it's part of the sweet, like, torture of owning it is you're just like, oh, man. I mean, and I get it. You can change modules any time that you want, but it's just sort of like... You're enjoying the game so much. Do I want to play Final Resistance or do I want to play Weird Al? Right. I'm not playing them back-to-back unless I want to swap the modules. Right. That's true. Yeah.
    85:24
    And while it's only like a 10-minute process, it's still like, you know, I'm lazy, so I'm not like, yeah, let's just whoop that heavy son of a bitch out.
    85:35
    But yeah. P3, I think that they're solid as a company. I think that they're very much what they are. I don't think that they're going to be anything different than what they are. I haven't heard any rumors that they're going to announce P3 2.0 or anything like that. So I think that what we have to look forward to from them is that they're just going to continue to put out banger modules.
    86:00
    And, you know, Portal is such a cool theme. that I don't think that anybody expected. Weird Al is such a cool theme that I don't think anybody expected. Princess Bride, such a cool theme I don't think anybody expected. And then they can go off and do original stuff, right? Like they can do a Final Resistance, which I love that game. Like I want that to be a full-time game. Yeah, you know, I want that to be a full-time game in my collection. So it's like, yeah, they have a lot of cool stuff. But, yeah, if you had to buy one P3 module, I'd still say Final Resistance. But it's really, really good. Weird Al's really, really good, too, if you're a Weird Al fan. But I don't think the shots on Weird Al are as good as the shots on Final Resistance or Portal. Really hard to hit that side ramp consistently. Yep. But it's got those assist magnets and stuff, and then it's got that little upper play field. So cool. I'll finish off with one of the things I was so impressed with When I first saw the first Multimorphic game Lexi And for what it's worth I really enjoyed playing that game I think it's a pretty good game But what really set it was we talked about innovation It's like oh the flippers The first time in you know how many decades Is somebody do flipper mechs In a different manner You know because they had to because of the way The playfield's a video screen or a monitor yeah what Dan said earlier about owning one I'm afraid of it because it's very technologically advanced and I'm not a real high tech gizmo person I'm George Jetson man I push a button and cool stuff happens Stern Pros are my way to go but see that's kind of the point right it's like so if you own a pinball machine that you work on right you're like because you have to do basic work on any pinball machine yes i think that's kind of where i was going is just like you know and you're just like i would never shop out a game you know i don't feel like i would want to take something apart then yeah p3 is probably not for you um you know be a stern pro guy right if you do feel like it's like oh yeah i love taking apart my games and installing mods and changing things it's like you know p3 is probably for you because It's sort of like pinball Lego. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yep. Like there's a building aspect to it, and I think that that's cool. And you see a lot of these guys who buy these new pinball machines, and then they put, you know, thousands of dollars in mods on them, and it's like I think P3 is for those guys because it's a completely customizable experience. You can put whatever art to match whatever game you're playing, or you can put the generic art, or you can mix and match, and you can put in your modules.
    88:59
    And, you know, there's just – and then there's different kinds of software profiles and stuff that you can do. Like, there's just a ton of shit that that machine does that I think that, like, the average user – and I'm counting myself as the average user – will probably never scratch the surface. because, you know, especially if they own 20 pinball machines because there's just too many machines out there to just sit down and master one. But if you're the kind of person who's going to own one, like for you, Mark, a P3 would probably be amazing. Yeah, so true. If you own one machine and it'll give you limitless options from one machine. That's so true. Or if you're like a dude who owns like 20 machines, it's just like having a P3 is a cool thing. You know, I'd also like to have a pinball 2000 and I'd also like to have, you know, you know, other one off machines just because those are those are neat, neat platforms. But I do think it's that level of innovation where it's different and it's cool. But, yeah, I don't feel like, well, I'm a stern pro guy. I couldn't handle a P3. You might be super well served having a P3 because, again, you've got a one game collection. and this would give you more variety than just playing James Bond or Dungeons & Dragons for the 50th time. That's true. Now, for you, switching a module is no big deal, right? You're just like, oh, shit, I want to put, you know, this game in or I want to borrow a module from a buddy of mine. My only problem is my only buddy who has a P3 is an Reno. Yeah, and the other question I have, when you say swapping modules between the other people, do you have to have the software license? No. No, like if I let you take my heist and plug it into your machine, you'd be allowed to download heist. Wow, that's cool. It just goes with the module. Now, if you want to download any of the other, like the side games, like that you would have to download to your P3. Okay, I got it. So the module that's unique goes with the software, but then the extra ones using the same module but different software for a different gaming experience, you have to buy that. I have Alexa Lightspeed. Yeah, if I had Lexi Lightspeed and I let you borrow it, you could download Lexi Lightspeed Escape from Earth. Oh, that's cool. If you wanted to download Secret Agent, if I had Secret Agent Showdown and you wanted Secret Agent Showdown, you'd have to download it to your machine. But the cool thing is, like, if I sold my machine, like, they do let you transfer the license. Oh, they do? So I could pull out my machine because I had 20 games downloaded onto it and you wanted them. And I said, okay, give me $10,000. you would get to I believe you'd get to transfer those licenses I know Multimorphic listens so if we're wrong drop us a line on the Facebook but I believe that that's how it works so yeah it does a lot of cool stuff and I know that I've been on the show when I've been frustrated with my P3 and I've been on the show when I've been delighted with my P3 and I always hear back from the Multimorphic crew on it Well, mostly you're positive about it. Because mostly I like it. Yeah.
    92:12
    You know, and I was thinking, too, the game that probably utilizes the screen the most as far as, like, hitting targets is probably Lexi Lightspeed, right? Because it seems like when I was playing that, it was like you can – the lower play field is utilized really well with the screen to hit the target. I think it was kind of the proof of concept, right? Yeah. But a lot of the downloadable games, like, they use the screen pretty much exclusively. Really? Okay. That's cool. Yeah, there's, like, you know, that Asteroid-style game, and then they have that new one, which is free, the Elements. Yeah, Elements. Where it's all just about the screen and the scoops. Oh, cool. And it works with any module. And you're seeing a lot more of that where they're building these games that work with any module. so you just download it and you know you can you can play this extra game because you know like let's be honest when you have you know one game and you've played as much James Bond as you can play right now your only choice is to go to the arcade or start trying to line up another game and eventually you know sell it and deal with a cash transaction and then deal with getting it out of your basement and deal with putting it on a truck and deal with putting the new one down and setting and up and leveling it, where if you had a multimorphic, yeah, you just pop it in a module and update your software and away you go. Cool.
    93:34
    Yeah, and for the money, it's not the cheapest game out there. It's probably, to get a full-featured machine, it's probably a little bit less than like a Sternelli, but usually when you get a starter, you get the module, you get all the art, and then as you move on, you can buy it piecemeal. they don't usually include the topper I think the topper is usually an additional expense I'm going to move us over to our next I think we've said everything we're going to say about Multimorphic I think everything else we can probably pretty much speed around because I don't think anybody owns any of it I don't think so I'm going to go next with Pinball Brothers came out of the gate with some pretty cool stuff, what they did is they took over the Alien Pinball Project when Highway Pinball closed their doors. They made some... You mean they bought the assets and they left other people holding the bag for the bill. Yeah, pretty much.
    94:35
    But they delivered games that were kind of improved. They improved, they took some mechs that were like, hey, this needs some work, and they did some stuff. I thought, okay, I played it. I was like, yeah, this is, this shoots a little better and seems to be working. And then they came out with a couple of games where Everybody's like, why? Like Queen. Everybody loves Queen. I love Queen. You love Queen. Love the music. That game was it. Then they came out with ABBA. I got nothing.
    95:01
    And then now, I mean, and I like ABBA's music well enough. I grew up with it, you know, like most of us did, older Gen Xers.
    95:12
    They finally came out with the Predator game that people have been begging for and asking for for years. they're like, well, we only got the license for another eight days and we'll get about maybe 110 out and we're done. And you can't get it. You can't get it. It's like, you guys, what are they doing over there? It's like everybody at Pinball Brothers, public service announcement, gentlemen, ladies, you're not supposed to drink the bong water.
    95:40
    But, you know. You know, I think we've said this before and I'll say it again. Alien might be one of the best deals you can get in pinball. Absolutely. Like, you see used Ripley editions with the topper selling for, like, seven grand, and I'm like, man, that's a good deal for a cool game.
    96:03
    And besides that, I don't really have any opinion on the rest of their stuff. You know, I've played Queen and ABBA at shows, and, you know, If those games were like $5,000, I'd be like, dude, these are really good deals, man. Cool games, and they're kind of cheap. I mean, they feel a little home version, but yeah. I had fun playing Queen at the show when it was over. I mean, yeah. I wouldn't pay $9,000 for it. That's it, yeah. Yeah, I had fun playing Queen at the show, too, but not at $9,000. I mean, you know, I enjoyed it, but it's like Dan said, $5,000, I'm in. $9,000? An alien, you know, again, you can get an alien nice and cheap, and that's a super cool game. Like, I think they make a good game. Yeah, they do. And I think that Predator, again, is kind of like another alien, but, yeah.
    96:56
    Like I said, what did you say they're making? A couple hundred of them? Yeah, something like that. Not very many.
    97:01
    Maybe they'll renegotiate the license or something cool will happen. Hopefully. Like, that game has such a troubled development cycle that I kind of understand why they're probably hedging their bets. They're like, look, buy this first 100, then we'll fucking talk. There you go. Yeah. But, you know, and it's $10,000. And that's the other thing, too. It's 10 grand. You know, it's $10,000. So to me, it's just like if those guys were putting out bangers like Alien and Predator and they were charging Stern Pro pricing, I think that they'd have a real leg to stand on. So far, I think they should just avoid their music games. Although, you know, two great bands, you know, Queen arguably, you know, the best ever.
    97:48
    And, you know, Abba Dabba, you know. That's fun to play out. The problem is the flippers. That's the issue with Pinball Brothers. Their flippers feel weird, and they're spongy, and they don't have that snap. Even though it's slightly different, you know, than other ones. I mean, you're not going to get the same for every manufacturer, but they just got frustrating to me a lot of times where they just get real weak and they can't make the shots. I don't know. It's just a weird feel. Like when I played the Alien. What'd you say? I love Alien. Alien's great. Yeah. It's awesome. But I didn't like the flippers. Alien is a game that I will certainly have one day. Yeah. Like, I haven't, like, I've had opportunities to pick it up, and I've picked up other things instead, but, like, Alien is certainly a game that one of these days I'll bring one home. Yeah. Like you said, the soundtrack, turn the lights off, playing it, it's awesome. I totally agree with you. They did a nice job on that game. And, of course, you know, some credit goes to the original design from Highway as well. Highway. It's a good game overall, but I'm hoping they can pull it out and really wow us in the next year or two. But I just, for longevity, I don't see them being here much longer. Because there's a lot of... I mean, they seem to be alive, right? Aren't they, like, in bed with Pedretti? Yeah, they're doing all of Pedretti's manufacturing. Pedretti's manufacturing for them. Is that the thing? Okay, maybe it's the opposite. Okay, I have it backwards.
    99:26
    Yeah, whatever. Next. I mean, I think that, like, 90% of the time, what lays low like these little pinball machine companies is. They can design it. They can tell us about it, but they can't build it. Right. So as long as they can figure out how to produce their 200, 500, 1,000 machines or whatever, you know, like somebody will probably buy at least some of them. Right.
    99:51
    Somebody will. And Predator had good reviews. People really enjoyed shooting that game. It's like everybody thinks that game's cool as hell. Yeah. Even with the really bad Arnold person.
    100:04
    Beyond Alien. Yeah, Beyond Alien has gotten the best reviews of any game they've made yet. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just going to turn it over to you.
    100:16
    Alien is such a banger theme. Like, you weren't going to go wrong with that. No, not at all. You would have had to try to make that game. Well, people tried pretty hard on some other themes, but, you know, so. we talked about some of them. I mean, Predator. Predator is such a great game. You would have had to try to make that game suck. I mean, Alien as well, but I mean, I was trying to talk about the new game, not the old game. Everybody knows I love Alien. And I want to play the Predator. It looks pretty cool, but there aren't going to be a lot of them out there. So I'm going to turn over to a company that keeps making great games, though games have already been made, Chicago Gaming. Oh, yeah.
    100:54
    They came out of the gate. They made Medieval Madness. They did what other people said they were going to do and didn't do. They said they did what was said could not be done, and they did it well. And then they turned around and did it even better with Attack from Mars remake and with Monster Bash.
    101:13
    And Dan and I talk about this often with the Attack from Mars and the Monster Bash remakes. At the time, you could get a base model for the same price as a Stern Pro. 6k gosh 6 so I was like what just pre-covid like 2018 2019 yeah you can get a base model for 6k of a remake of Attack on Mars or Monster Bash not a better deal to be had in pinball somewhere along the line I don't know what happened with Cactus Canyon man they just it took them so long to get that out and then even longer to get the enhancement kit out that people did. Like you talked about earlier in the show, Mark, people just got tired of waiting and moved on. Mm-hmm. You know? I want to play it now, not six years from now. Right. They've also done Pulp Fiction, which is a really... There's Pulp Fiction as well. Yeah. And it took them a while. Like, they do good stuff, they just don't do it fast. No. But it seems like they're financially solvent.
    102:22
    Like, they're selling what they make. Yeah. And they're doing another run of Medieval. You can get it. There's still some available.
    102:31
    They're doing a pretty good job on the Merlin Edition, aren't they? They're rolling those out a little sooner than I thought they would. Yeah, I think they're rolling them out.
    102:40
    I don't know. I mean, if you're into the remakes, like, cool. Like, I liked my Medieval remake. I think that where they lost me was I don't think that, you know, the remakes now aren't even really remakes. They're like enhancements, like they're upgrades of the original. And I kind of liked it when they were doing that classic edition, you know, for that really good price. Like looking back on it, like, yeah, I wish I bought every single one of those. Just because, you know, are they the authentic article? No, but I mean, they're close enough for government work. And, you know, any machine as good as Monster Bash for $6,000 or, you know, Attack from Mars for $6,000 or Medieval Madness for $8,000 or whatever it was. Like, those are just smoking deals. But, yeah, they're at the point now where the remakes are about as expensive as just buying a good original. Yeah, that's true. The price is about the same. For my money, you know, if I'm going to spend $13,000 on Medieval, I mean, yeah, I might not get a topper and it might be a little bit more beat up, but, like, I'd rather get an original. And, you know, that's just the collector in me going back to what I said earlier about, like, hey, it's an arcade machine. Although I will give the remakes credit, like, as far as I know, they're pretty much bulletproof. I never had a lick of trouble with my medieval madness. That wasn't just normal old pinball stuff like a screw coming loose or something needing an adjustment. Like, that thing was just tough as nails, and, you know, I went in and put all the enhancements and stuff on it, and, you know, it was really cool that they gave you the option to do that. So I like Chicago Gaming. I would love to see them do something of their own again because I think Pulp Fiction was cool, and I think that they did a good job, and I think that they have Mark Ritchie, and I think Mark Ritchie is a great designer with a lot to prove or a lot left to give. He doesn't have to prove anything. That dude's made tons of bangers. Absolutely. He made Taxi.
    104:57
    You don't need to prove anything once you've made Taxi. Not much. Exactly. And the thing, too, is what I really like about them is, yeah, they put that nostalgia of an 80s machine in a modern twist, and I'm curious if they're going to do another one like that, like you said, Dan, or do you think they're just going to have a totally different theme, original, and have it more modern, you know, like with ramps and stuff like that? I like the Tarantino. A lot of that was Tarantino. He demanded that. But it turned out great. I love it. Oh, it's phenomenal. It kills me in terms. But, yeah. I love the fact that they made it like a 70s game. Yeah, I think that that ended up being inspired. I think that had they made like a modern LCD game, I mean, it probably would be cool. It'd probably be kind of like Lebowski was. Right. But, like, at the end of the day, I think that, like, the retro styling really suited that game. I do wish they'd come up with a better artist.
    105:58
    Yeah. Because I don't love the art. on it. I think it looks like a bad day to east as opposed to a good day to east, but it doesn't matter because they got that stainless steel coin door and they got that back glass with the alphanumeric graphics and they got the cool little speaker grill underneath. I've never seen the topper in real life, but the topper looks like it's kind of a banger. The topper is awesome in person. But the thing that gets me every time is that they made that valley style coin door.
    106:28
    It's so good. Like, I just see it, and I'm just like, oh, I cannot believe that they made this. Yeah, so true. Like, that is such cool attention to detail. So, yeah, those guys are definitely doing cool things. And, yeah, I want to see them do another new machine. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like, remakes are cool. Make Circus Voltaire and make Fever Magic.
    106:52
    You know, like, there's still a lot of cool games out there that they haven't touched. but like honestly like hey you know what else can you make like pulp fiction you know yeah is there another banger like franchise out there that like we're all wishing for that you can bring us and you know try to do it a little bit quicker this time yeah the thing too also is i think what you nailed it is it's quality over quantity for them i mean they do put out a lot of games but Like you said, it takes such a long time. But a lot has to do with the attention to detail because, like I said before, when I talked about the tour, that they silkscreen all their play fields. And that's pretty cool. It really makes it more vibrant. Yeah, nobody else is doing that anymore. Nobody else is doing that. So that does take a lot more time. Just anything that gets hard to find stuff into the hands of people who want it. Yeah. You know, I'm all about having the exclusive club and I'm all about, you know, hey, I've got something here that nobody else sees and that's kind of cool. But honestly enough, there are some things that are just like it's no fun for them to be locked away from the world. Right. You know, it's no fun to not be able to play Medieval Madness.
    108:11
    Rather than to be able to play Medieval Madness. Yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody. You know, it's no fun to not be able to play Monster Bash versus being able to play Monster Bash. Yeah. So it's cool to me that a company is out there saying like, hey, you know, we're going to bring the classics to the masses and we're going to do it at a pretty reasonable price point. And, you know, for the $8,000, $9,000 that they were selling those LEs for or the $6,000 they were selling those classics for, dude, that was a good deal, man. That was a good deal.
    108:46
    I would pay Stern premium pricing all day long. I mean, I don't necessarily need the big screens and the toppers and the color-changing lighting. It's cool that it's there, but, like, at the same time, it's just like, hey, man, make Adam's family, you know? Yeah, please. Make Indiana Jones, you know? Make, you know, even the games that I have. Like, I'm just like, make a remake of it, you know? Will it be good for my value? No, but, I mean, people want these games, and I want people to have games that they want. Right. Yeah.
    109:19
    That's well said. Yeah, no, I'm with you. Yeah, Creech. I'd love to see him remake Creech. I'd love to have a Creech, especially a new and boss Creech. That would be great.
    109:29
    Well, we're ready to go on to the next one. We're down to two. Okay, we're doing good. We're doing great. So our next one is Turner Pinball. Okay.
    109:40
    I liked it the first game, Ninja Eclipse. They came out and it was, okay, well, they were $5 cheaper than Stern Pro. They were the same price as Stern Pro. So, you know, five bucks is five bucks, whatever. I said, okay. You know, new company, Triumph. They delivered on their promises. They delivered all their games. They didn't cheat anybody. I appreciated that because I wasn't too keen on them, still not, because of their affiliation with some stuff that just went horribly wrong more than once.
    110:12
    However, they let go of stuff. They let go of a lot of things and gave it to another company. Yeah, and we'll get to that. And I know, Mark, you've been underneath the hood. You said it's really cool. It's really neat. It's very innovative, yeah, the way they have it all modular and how it's – it was really cool to see how the engineering was done on that Ninja Eclipse. Yes, the one that we ripped on before we actually saw once they made modifications to it. Yeah. Wow. It's really cool how – Now, if you want a game where you don't want to have to be technical fixing it, have Molex connectors and you don't have to do any soldering. All the light boards are built into the actual circuit boards.
    111:01
    The cabinet was really good quality. I mean, I was really impressed when I saw under the hood, especially how it had very little wires. That's what blew me away. I was like, damn, there's only, like, wires from the solenoids to here and there. and then it was like, that was it. It was like there was no, like, wiring harnesses all over the place like you see on other games. It was very clean. And I have to say, I did like the design of being able to have the glass and the metal frame around it so you could just pop it up like a hood or remove it. And just one little latch and, you know, off it goes easy. And if you are in a tight quarter, you can just lift it up and get the stuck ball and put it back in the shooter lane and back to your game. And I like Chris Turner a lot. I think he's a really nice guy. He's open to suggestions. And he's not going out the gate. He's a smart dude. He's a very smart guy. He's a smart dude. Yeah. I'll give that dude all the credit in the world. Like, he definitely saw an opportunity.
    112:04
    And I think that he took, you know, the funny thing about it is, and I wasn't, remember, I had left early the day that Spencer had his Turner pinball meltdown. But, like, that dude was in an impossible situation. Yeah. Like, he came down on, you know, with a bunch of assets in probably the worst debacle that pinball ever, ever had. That Turner pinball thing was so terrible. When it came out, not Turner pinball, I'm sorry, Deep Root. When it came out that, like, the dude was running, like, a Ponzi scheme and scamming people out of retirements and shit, you're just like, you know. And we thought the dumbest thing that guy was going to do was hire J-Pop. Yeah. So, and, yeah, when he came out with the rights, and, you know, I already made a snide remark about Pinball Brothers, right? So it's like, it felt like that, like this dude probably just left other people holding the bill and absconded with the assets. But, like, somehow he's managed to leverage, you know, some of the assets.
    113:16
    He managed to get a lot of the more problematic stuff just out of his life and make two games. Yeah. Not a big quantity but good quality Yeah you know he manufactured and sold you know two distinct games And you know I think that if he could find like that Stern Pro or less price point and to manufacture more, I think that that would be great. Because once again, I'm just tired of games that you can't get. I don't understand the advantage of making the games and going like, well, I'm going to sell 100 of these and fuck the rest of you people. Uh, but you know, there's always a spot in this hobby for people who like want a good entry level game and they don't necessarily want to go to Costco and buy it. Right.
    114:17
    You know, not that there's anything wrong with the Stern home Star Wars. I know that, you know, we're, you know, we're a bunch of snobs and pinball and we're like, it's a home version. It has a smaller screen. And it's like, dude, if you dropped one of those things on me when I was a kid or even a young adult, I'd be like, dude, this is the best thing ever. If you tried to sell one to me now that I own 20 pinball machines, I'd be like, yeah, I could buy something better for less.
    114:42
    But at the same time, it's just like that dude's doing a quote unquote arcade machine for the price of a Stern Pro. You just have to be willing to stand in line for it early, I guess, because it doesn't feel like he makes very many. Was there any limit on Merlin? I don't know, dude. I don't know anywhere I can play one. So I can't. The problem with Merlin is they raised the price. You can get a lower price one without the powder coat, and it'll just be flat plastics instead of 3D sculpted like that. But it kind of blew their, you know, in my opinion, it's like, well, you guys were doing pretty good keeping it Stern Pro pricing. What are you doing? Yeah. Well, especially on a non-licensed theme, too. It's fine to do a basic edition, though. we all own Stern Pros. Yep.
    115:30
    If we wanted to spend $3,000 more, we could own a fancier version. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, there's nothing wrong with making, you know, like I said, I actually appreciate that. Like, again, make the basic edition that will survive arcade play, that first-timers can own, that low-buck pin guys can afford.
    115:50
    You know, the people who have a lot of money, you know, God bless them. Great job. I appreciate anybody who has a lot of money and is crazy enough to spend it on pinball machines. I love you guys. Yeah, absolutely. I know a lot of times it feels like I'm being critical of you guys. I'm not. I love all of my rich pinball buddies who buy unbelievable amounts of awesome games and then say, hey, come to my house and play them. Exactly. What a cool freaking thing to do.
    116:18
    Yeah, it's like there's nothing wrong with making expensive games. There are plenty of places making expensive games, but I appreciate a guy like Turner who's like, hey, I'm going to make this game, and I'm going to make it affordable. And it's like, that's awesome, but I'm only going to make 100 of them. It's like, no.
    116:35
    Right. You're not bringing it to the masses, you know. So it's a matter of what theme, right? What theme are they going to have? Who cares what theme it is? It could be, you know, it could be dog shit sandwich if it's a cool enough game. I'm holding out for laundromat dude I think laundromat could be good think about how hilarious that would be and you could put it next to your diner and your taxi yeah laundromat it would so much be like a 1970s or a 1980s theme or food truck I like food truck that never comes out well no that was one of the deep root games right Yeah. Well, that has to come from DPX. Yeah, there you go. Which we're going to get to. Yeah. But, yeah, Turner, like, awesome. You know, awesome. You know, and here's the deal. I'm not going to be too nice. I'm not going to be too mean. I played Ninja Eclipse. It's a cool game. It's okay. They had it at Pinnagogo. Or not Pinnagogo. I'm sorry. They had it at Golden State. I put two games on it. I was like, you know, would I buy this game? Probably not. But if I was like Mark a few years ago and I'm just like, man, I need my first game, I want to buy something new in box, and I don't have money falling out of the sky, you know, do I buy Hot Wheels or do I buy the Stern Pro of the moment or do I buy this crazy ninja game?
    118:03
    Well, and I bet you a lot of people would be like, I'm going to give the crazy ninja game a chance. Right. Yeah. You know, make more than 100 of them. There you go. I don't even want to talk about these idiots Dutch Pinball You love talking about DP Okay Dutch Pinball came out, came to Expo All these years ago, like 12, 13 years ago now Maybe even 14, I don't know, it's been a long time And they Just talked crap about Sturning everybody else And they had a big hotel party With booze and pretty girls in the whole nine yards And then 12 years later, they managed to produce exactly what, around 200 machines of Big Lebowski. They finally, after lies and mistruths and misleading their customers and every other thing you can think of and buying and selling and trading and subcontracting, they did finally deliver on all their games to all their customers. They had ordered them with the rugs. Well, that's just like your opinion, man. Yeah, I know. So then it's like, all right, and now they're going to come out with their second game.
    119:17
    Alice. It's out, right? People have it. There's two or three of them on location over in Denver. I need to get over and play one. And, Mark, you played it. You played it. Played it last night. And you played it locally in Reno. Yep. Okay, so, and that was a cardboard cutout, foam core, half-baked, Jughead idea from J-Pop to begin with.
    119:43
    But they got it done. And now, okay, well, that was a J-Pop and that was Zombie Yeti, right? Yeah, the original black and white pen art. And then they had another artist finish it up. But I mean, there's coming out, like there's DNA. There's DNA from J-Pop. Like, you know, the art looks zombie-yetti-ish. The design is definitely J-pop-ish. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. J-pop. Somebody else took it over the finish line, but it's like, I think that you can kind of piss on Dutch all you want for going through what they went through, right? Like, the funny thing about it was I remember playing Lebowski up in Seattle or up in Tacoma. Yeah. And at the time, dude, that game was off the chain. Yeah. Like, I think that that was, like, Stern was doing, like, Walking Dead, and, you know, they were still doing DMV games. Right. You know, JJP was, you know, doing Hobbit. I think so. Or is it still Wizard? Like, so it was a cool game with some cool mechs and a really good theme, right? Like, and I think that was the beginning of, like, we're going to find this niche theme that, like, a couple hundred or a thousand or two thousand whatever pinheads are going to be like, fucking, I have to have that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, well, and, you know, I've always been like, man, Lebowski is like a game that I would love to own for the theme because that's such a fun movie with such great characters. The problem with Lebowski is apparently they're still, like, ridiculously unreliable. Everyone who I've ever known who owned a Lebowski was like, I could not get rid of that game faster. Yeah, exactly. You're so true. Yeah, we had it on location and it always was down. Always down. So, but, you know, and with that Alice in Wonderland, like, I get that guys in pinball, and we've kind of alluded to this before, like, they love to have shit that they're not supposed to have. Yeah. You know, and that Alice in Wonderland thing, you know, that all the J-pop games, basically, aren't they doing Retro Atomic Zombie Wonderland? They are. And Magic Girl. Well, I don't know if they're redoing Magic Girl again, but they might. I'm not sure, but, yeah. So here's the thing. Okay. So people want those games, right? Because they, and especially at like the high-end level of the pinball hobby, because they can't have them or they're not supposed to have them. Right. So if you give them a way to get them, you know, they've proven 1,000 machines at $15,000, they sold out immediately. Yeah. And now people are getting them, and from what I've heard, everybody seems to be happy.
    122:40
    Yeah, I think it's a fun game. It's very fun. I haven't heard anybody who's played it or owned it say, oh, man, I'm really sorry I bought this Alice in Wonderland. It sucks. I mean, it's definitely not as deep as other games, but you don't have to be, you know, knowledgeable in the rules like other games where you have to study them before you play. It's like, oh, hit up the ramp, start a mode, throw it, hit it into the scoop. Okay, here you got to make these shots. It's very, very clearly laid out on where you shoot. And there's some unique places where you can shoot it. You know, like on the left side, it's kind of like a figure eight, kind of like what James Bond 60th was. And, you know, there's those cute cool mech. I mean, there's that neat way of being able to use the Magna Flippers, obviously inspired by Twilight Zone. And the art is gorgeous on it. And you know what? The badass girls that look hot are actually pretty cool. It looks good, especially in person. It looks a lot better than when they did that video.
    123:45
    I was cracking up, like, when they announced it. And I think that pinball people try to find reasons to be negative. Yeah. And one of the things I thought was funny was one of the podcasts was just talking about how the girls were slutty. Yeah. And I was like, bro, have you ever even played pinball before? Exactly. Like, slutty girls are, like, what pinball is all about.
    124:08
    Yeah. Like, go back to, like, 1977, man. Like, Strikes and Spares. Yeah, exactly. Any gottlieb of that era. We like her. Yeah, any gottlieb of that era. Or Bally. Any Bally gottlieb of that era. Or Bally, right. Like I said, man, you know, there's all sorts of, like, weird little stuff in pinball. That's why it killed me with the whole thing with Oktoberfest where everybody was mad. And I've seen the art. The art was terrible with the monkey feeling up the girls and the leaderhooks. Yeah. I'd be like, dude, it was just ugly art, but it's just like, yeah, it's just like, come on. You guys need more to worry about. I'm doing that now. I'm going to type in. This is not corrupting America's views. I'm going to type in my search engine, monkeys and later hoes. Monkey feeling up.
    124:58
    Oh, my God, yeah, monkey feeling up a steingirl. So, yeah, man, just, I just, you know, I think the DPX or Dutch Pinball or that whole, like, group, like, I think that they've gone through some shit, and I hope that, you know, I hope that they continue to bring out games. You know, I keep hearing them attached to Back to the Future, which I definitely hope isn't true, because I would actually like to buy a Back to the Future, and I don't think I'm ever going to be on the Dutch Pinball game list. But, you know, I don't think that they're doing anything wrong anymore. I think that they found a niche of the hobby, and they found people who want this lost, deep-root, John Papaduke stuff. You know, and if they can deliver it and get people what they want, cool. Yeah. You know? They're already doing wrong. Sure, Atomic Zombie Adventureland might be the stupidest theme ever, but I love stupid themes. So a zombie theme park actually sounds kind of weirdly amusing to me. Okay, so I don't know if you're aware of this. You might be.
    126:12
    Okay, so they told everybody, hey, when you put your deposit down, you can get it back. It's not returnable, not refundable, unless we don't get your game within a year, and then it's refundable. So it's been over a year for a lot of the people that put down money for the Alice game. So now they're saying, well, you know, if you just hold on, you know, if you just let's keep the deposit and wait patiently for your game, we're going to make sure you get a spot on the back to the future game. So they're already doing the Deep Root, bait and switch, three, you know, three shell P game bullshit. The same shit that Deep Root was doing. I can't validate if that's true or not. Yeah, it's true. It's true. They literally, they have done that. It's been well documented. talked about. Now, as far as Back to the Future, they might have the license, but they have zero assets. We know this from experience from the past. We don't know anything about this. It's all speculation. Michael J. Fox will never allow his likeness to be on that game. Neither will Christopher Lloyd. It was like pulling teeth to get him to do it for the port for the pinball arcade version of Adam's Family. They had so much So they had to do a GoFundMe or whatever to get the money up to pay him so they could get his likeness on the game. He didn't want to do it either.
    127:37
    And then, yeah, Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, it was another half-baked. I mean, that thing shot like crap.
    127:46
    Yeah, but what I'm saying is it doesn't matter at college shoots. There's a certain part of pinball that wants that game because it was a canceled game. Yeah. Right? And they're not supposed to, they weren't supposed to ever get it. Like, it was something that you couldn't get, and now you'll be able to get it. And so they'll sell 500 or 1,000 of them. They said they're selling, like, 300 of them or 330 or something. Whatever. Yeah. Like, they'll sell whatever they try to sell, but they're not doing a lot. There's enough people right now, there's enough collectors in pinball that, like, They're going to buy these things just because, you know, 299 other people will have it. So they found a niche and, you know, they've bought the rights and they may as well exploit them.
    128:32
    There's always a weird thing with pinball people about Papa Duke games. You know, whether you love them or you hate them.
    128:42
    And I think that in general they're decent. You know, I was playing World Cup soccer the other night. Yeah. I think that's a cool game. We have a theater of magic. I think that's a cool game. I like all the Charlie Williams stuff. I like the cool game. Yeah. I like playing all the Charlie Williams stuff. What's the other game that they did? Arabian Nights. Yeah. That's a cool game in search of better rules. Yeah. Star Wars Episode I. It's at least just Pinball 3000. Yeah. But, you know, I get why people want the games, you know, and there's a bit of a fan base there for whatever reason, but I don't think that they're going to take over the pinball industry. No, definitely not. Like you thought they were going to at the beginning. I just think that they're going to continue to do these weird little niche-y projects, and like I said, I would rather them not do something like Back to the Future because I don't think that they're ever going to do games in quantity, and I would like to be able to own a backboard. Or ones that will actually work.
    129:42
    Alice seems to work fine. Yeah, and Alice is working just great, but there's not many mechs on it, so.
    129:48
    Yeah. And sometimes that's the best way to go. It really is. You know, have some great shots, keep it simple. You know, Attack from Mars doesn't have a lot of mechs on it. No. Right. But it's fun as shit. Medieval Madness, that whole castle works off of one solenoid. Right. But it's fun as shit. Yeah. You know, the drawbridge is a motor. Right. But, you know, so there's, like, a lot of games that are mech-heavy, but they're fun. Yeah, there's a lot of mechs. Yep. Yeah. I love that, Cam. Yeah. No, I'm with you. I just wanted to do stuff right. Stop doing stupid shit. Just stop. Just do your thing. How do they have the J-Pop curse, right? Every company that takes on him, something happens. Well, they're even only indirect, right? Because they bought the rights to his games from somebody else, and then they quote-unquote re-engineered them. Right. Yeah.
    130:39
    So J-Pop's name isn't on any of their stuff. Mm-hmm. I forgot the guy's name, but he's like, oh, no, no, I redesigned it. And you look at it and you're just like, that is definitely a Papa Dewey. A Papa Dewey. Papa Dyke. Remember the guy said on another podcast? No, it was on a video. I was watching a video on, like, Modern Pinball, and the guy said, John Papa Dyke. And I'm like, I immediately, like, caught that screenshot or the little section of the video and sent it to you guys. And that was a couple months ago. And I'm like, God, that is so good. No, I remember you were amused. I was highly amused.
    131:18
    And then there's one other company, right? Pedretti? But they're not – all they do is just remake Funhaus. There are other remake companies. Yeah, and they didn't even do a good job, like not a good job at all because they tried to change it. That's not the point. The whole point is to remake the game into classic and keep it classic because that's what people want. Well, they did, right? They did the classic version. And then they also did the upgrade version. And the big rumor is, isn't the big rumor that they're doing Big Bang Bar? Yeah, that is a big one. And they'll screw that up, too.
    131:55
    That's pretty negative. It's true. I don't think the Funhouse remake was that bad. No, just the standard was fine. But that, whatever it was, Rudy's Nightmare, that's awful. Just awful. And they're kids. Their whirlwind kit? No, no, no, no. Here's the deal, right? So the upgrade kit for Rudy's Nightmare. Yeah. It's not bad. It's awful. It's not bad. You can play the original on it. You get the DMV screen. You get the cool little magic mirror replacement. It's pretty affordable, right? And then when you buy the machine, it all comes built in, which is pretty cool. I don't know if they put the auto kicker on it. Apparently, it's supposed to get an auto kicker. Right.
    132:42
    And they made. They could have done a couple things better. Right. They could have got a better voice for Rudy. You know, they could have, you know, the arts hit or miss. It just depends on how you feel about the art. You know, it's the same thing with whirlwind total chaos. The whirlwind total chaos thing. The problem I have with that is like thematically it's terrible. Yeah. That was bad. Like it didn't do a good job of sticking with the whole whirlwind theme. I love the idea, like on paper, I love the idea of taking these System 11s, you know, and putting a new CPU in there so you can play the original and then you can also play this cool new version of it. And it was kind of cool with Bride of Pinbottom. It was kind of cool with Funhaus. And it's not as cool with Whirlwind.
    133:27
    The problem I have really with Whirlwind is it actually breaks the original Whirlwind too, so you don't even get the advantage of having the original work.
    133:35
    Right. But, you know, I don't think that, like, they're terrible at, like, making games. I just think that, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, do something that people need.
    133:49
    You know, did you need Funhaus to be better? I guess. No, no, you didn't. Did you need a version of Funhaus of Ugly or Art? Maybe not, but some people love it. It's got a lot of Williams homages in it. Did we need to break whirlwind? no do we need Big Bang Bar remake yes yes yes we do but we need Big Bang Bar remake because Big Bang Bar is a fun fucking game it is a good game that 200 people can play you know because of the original you know or a dozen if you have the prototypes and you know it's not available to the masses right so if they're going to make Big Bang Bar remake Like, I'm in. Like, I love that idea, especially if it's, you know, something that, like, you can afford to buy if you're a pinball buyer. Because God knows that you don't get pinball, you don't get Big Bang Bar unless you're, like, hardcore. Those things are, like, $30,000 now. Right. Yeah.
    134:52
    And admittedly, they deserve to be $30,000 because the Big Bang Bar story is one of the greatest stories in the history of pinball. And I've said it before and I'll say it again. You don't pay $30,000 for Big Bang Bar. Big Bang Bar is an average to above average 90s game. But the story of how you had to get one and the Gene Cunningham thing with all the ins and outs and sketchiness and ups and downs is so good that, like, when you own a Big Bang Bar, whether you own the Illinois Pinball production or you own the prototype, the actual Capcom prototype, it's just cool to be able to say like do you know what you had to do to get one of these like I would love if they made a very traditional faithful Big Bang Bar to the original version and you can use P-Rock whatever you have to use to make it work but like I want that Dancing Girl and I want that ELRAM and I want those super like annoying and obnoxious sound effects A little more to the right A little more to the left If you know the story If you know the Tucker automobile story Big Bang Bar is kind of like the Tucker of pinball machines That was a great movie with Jeff Bridges Yeah, I was watching Amica Boxing earlier today And they rolled on a Tucker onto the floor Tucker Torpedo So, that's one of the projects I would love to see come to fruition. Oh, me too. Like, I always thought the Big Bang Bar was a game that was one of Pinball's biggest missed opportunities. Do I think it would have been the Addams Family or even Medieval Madness? No. But, like, I think Capcom games are cool, and I think it was definitely going to be one of the better Capcom games. Yeah. So, I think that friggin' Airborne is super underrated. Agreed. Yeah.
    136:55
    Well, you know, it's funny. Going back to our last company, remember a long time ago when they were going to redo the artwork for, what was it, for Bride of Pinball? Bride of Pinball. Yeah. That wasn't Pedretti. That was Dutch. Yeah, I know. And that never came to fruition, which is a good thing. But anyway, I wanted to throw that in there. I think you can get that art. You can? Because I think I've seen people who've done that project. Really? Like, their whole thing was they were going to do the Funhaus Rudy's Nightmare, like, special edition. Like, they were going to do that with Bride of Pinbot, and it was updated art and a new machine, and they couldn't pull it off. They couldn't pull it off, right. You know, the other thing that I want to kind of say speaks to the fact that, again, it's much more of a collector's market, which is why you can have all these companies and much less of an operator's market, is the rise of, like, the supremely good homebrew.
    137:54
    Yeah. Yuck. The truth is, like, we just went through, like, what, nine or ten manufacturers or 11 manufacturers or whatever we went through? 11, including Pedretti, yeah. But the truth is, like, there's unlimited pinball manufacturers out there now. Yeah. Maybe you can't buy one of their games, but, I mean, I also can't buy, you know, Winchester Mystery House. But these guys who are doing, like, the Friday the 13th and the Motorheads and the Tony Hawk Pro Skater and all these. Yeah, Big Trouble in Little China. All these professional level games, you know, and it speaks to the fact that, like, the collector's community, the pinball community, like, they are so passionate now. Yeah. That, like, they're going to make the game that they want to see happen. Right. Yeah, it's not like, oh, we've got to wait for Stern to come up with this. It's like, you know what? I want to do a Pee-wee's Big House. Sonic. That Sonic game. Playhouse Adventure or whatever. Yeah.
    138:59
    Big Adventure, sorry. And they're kicking them all the way. It's not even like Archer or even like the original Total Nuclear Annihilation where they were, like, these playing Whitewoods. Yeah. It's like these guys are making games that you would believe tomorrow that that game would roll off the line, you know, at a Spooky or a JJP or a Stern, you know. Like, they're real honest-in-the-god games. So it's amazing to think that, like, you're not limited anymore by three manufacturers. It's not just Valley Williams and Data East. Right. I wish they brought back 8 Ball Beyond. I love that game. Time, you know.
    139:38
    So to kind of like, yeah, to kind of put that whole story to bed, like, yeah, it's just unbelievable that, like, there are so many cool homebrews being brought out by these guys. And, you know, pinball is, you know, for all the people who talk about, oh, pinball's in decline, and, you know, they're not making the games that I want to get, and everything's expensive, and it's terrible. It's like, just look at the passion that's going into some of these games, not just by the manufacturers, but by the fans who are bringing these games out. And, you know, hopefully some of these cool games, you know, will get their chance at, you know, being seen by more than just people who go to Texas Pinball Festival or Chicago. You know, maybe someday these games will get produced. And like Valhalla did. Well, Valhalla wasn't a homebrew, was it? It was the other game that they did. Yeah, but I mean, it's kind of a homebrew.
    140:37
    Yeah, but... Riot, Riot Pinball. Yeah. I'd love to see Wooly get made. I think that game's cool. Yeah, so... But yeah, so that's kind of, you know, where I kind of feel about it. It's like, yeah, there's a lot of manufacturers, and they're doing real stuff, you know, except for American. American's a zombie manufacturer. But yeah, man, just let's hope that these guys can keep this up, because yeah, I think a couple years ago, the homebrew thing became kind of the big thing, right? Like, it's great. You know, you're going to go to the show. You're going to see King Kong. You know, you're going to see Harry Potter. Now let's go see, like, six new games that these dudes made in their garages and their home shops. You know, blow that shit out of the water. You know, looking down the list, And thank you, Dan, for bringing up the Humbers because that's such a great point. There's so much really good, you know, passionate projects that people are doing that are just amazing. They should be applauded. But I'm looking at the list of what we talked about, and I'm thinking, if you go back 15 years, there was Stern. If you go back 12 years, there was Stern and JJP. And then, you know, 10 years, there was Stern, JJP, Dutch, and then Spooky. You know, and you look now, and, I mean, we've had a couple companies come and go, you know.
    142:05
    But I still think pinball is as strong as it's ever been. The demographics have changed. There's more home games now, a lot more than there are location. But location play is pretty strong right now. And younger folks are liking pinball too. Yeah. I'm seeing that more and more. It's great to see. Yep. so and I can't remember which one of you gentlemen came up with the final topic of the night it was me Dan you want to lead us off on that sure so being that this show will come out probably right around Thanksgiving we figured it would be a good time to just have a quick mention especially since that last topic took almost two and a half hours and we didn't do intros of what we're thankful for in pinball. So why don't you start us off, Spencer? I'm thankful for the fact that I can go two and a half hours on this show.
    143:09
    No, and it's funny because you said, I got like a minute, Spencer. This topic is not going to go all night. I'm like, you watch.
    143:18
    No, I'm thankful. No, you're not even lying. Because we always do that. Oh, we can talk for 20 minutes. Bullshit. We'll talk for three hours. I'm thankful in pinball stuff for you, my brothers, my pin brothers, who get together about once a month and laugh and joke and have a good time. And intermittently over the month, we text and talk on the phone. And just, you know, we're the three musketeers of pinball podcasting, man. And I'm grateful every day that you guys are part of my life. and I'm grateful to all the fans, the listeners, the people that go, you know, I listened to your last couple episodes. They didn't suck.
    144:01
    And, no, you know, I think we – You guys, you're bad, but you're not as bad as you used to be. There you go. No, I think we found our niche, and both Mark and Dan, both of you guys have really helped steer that direction of, hey, let's not be the news because everybody else is the news, you know, not all of them. But a lot of the podcasts, you know, are just talking about, hey, this is News.
    144:29
    And that's great. I listen to a lot of the other podcasts. I love all these guys. They all have great content as well as all the people that do video content. And I'm glad for all of you out there.
    144:42
    But I like what we're doing. We're just kind of like what Nate Schumer used to say on Coast to Coast.
    144:51
    It's a podcast. It's a commentary. And we are men out of quarters. There we go. Yeah, commentary. We're a commentary on what's going on and what we think. And I thought about this a lot in this episode. But, yeah, that's what I'm most thankful for. Good health and pinball. Good health and family. and so many new companies and so many old companies, so many companies producing games, continue to make new games to give out to the pinball community to enjoy and talk about and have fun with and to you guys. And that's what I am most thankful for this Thanksgiving in the pinball realm. Who's next? I'll go next. I am thankful for all the friendships and all the friends that I got through pinball. I'm amazed how much my number of friends have increased since I got into this hobby and not just because of pinball but just just really awesome people like you guys and also you know people around the area in Reno and just thankful that we have such a passion to be able to like you said Dan invite you over to your house play the newest thing and and share it with everybody around the community to get that experience of people that could never afford one of those like me. I only have one game, but I have places to go and private collections and also all the hard work in the public locations too, like Jim and Ted and Cody. I'm so thankful for them because they're bringing that magic and that excitement that everybody loves around here to have a great time with everybody and learn rules and play around with new games, figuring out things and coming up with different ideas. It's just a real collective community. And it is just wonderful to see how everybody gets along and enjoys the passion that we all have, that most people on the outside look at it as a bunch of addicts. But in reality, it's a family and it's great to be a part of it. Yeah, we're just a bunch of addicts. Well, that too.
    147:07
    It's like, oh, man, look at all these pinball machines. You must be rich, bro. I'm just irresponsible. Exactly.
    147:15
    You know, my answer is not entirely different from your guys' answers, so I'm going to go a different direction and kind of stay with our theme of the episode. I'm super grateful for all of the people in this world who have the passion to make pinball machines. Yes. You know, we definitely burn on talking about the games that come out, even though I think it kind of goes back to what you said a couple minutes ago, Spencer. We try really hard not to report news because everyone else reports news, and we try not hard to talk about something unless, like, we have a unique take, I think.
    147:59
    But, like, how great is it to see games coming out over the last few months like Evil Dead, like Beetlejuice, like Harry Potter, like King Kong, and just to see this sustained level of quality continue to drive forward a business and a hobby that most people think is dead. It's great. You know, don't get me wrong. I love old games. I love to buy a crappy game off of Facebook Marketplace or off of Craigslist and fix it up and have pinball fun for $1,000. But, like, there's just nothing cooler than seeing this team of young kids who've put together this Beetlejuice game and just have it blowing everybody out of the water or seeing this guy like Carl D'Angelo, who has been a pinball player for years and is making what I'm sure is a dream thing for him with Winchester, or, you know, to see a guy like Keith Elwin just take over the business of pinball and become, you know, one of the biggest designers in the game or to see Steve Ritchie just keep doing what he's doing. So, you know, a big thanks to the designers, to the companies, to all the people, the dealers who are just continuing to bring us these awesome, awesome machines. Because let's be honest, pinball is great, but you can only play the same machine so many times before it gets a little bit old.
    149:30
    Yep, absolutely. You know, people say stuff on the Internet they won't say in real life, obviously. And, like, when we went to shows and we talked to, you know, like, Mike Minicore, Michael Grant from Stern Pinball and other reps and distributors, they always say, you know, I love coming to the show and talking to you guys. You guys are always so complimentary and so, you know, nice. And, you know, you talk us up and you praise us. And we love it, you know. We love taking it back and going, we go to the show and we talk to these guys. They say nothing but good things about us. And, you know, so it's a renewed thing. And, you know, I'll always give credit where credit is due. Yeah, I will beat up some of the people that I feel have it coming, that's pinball.
    150:14
    But, yeah, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they keep making games for us, and we'll keep playing them, you know. So, no, I think everybody was – I think great episodes, spot on. So you can reach us, or you can reach us on our Facebook page, The Spinner Is Lit. You can email us at our email at thespinnerislit at gmail.com. You can listen to us on our home at soundcloud.com as well as iTunes and other places that find podcasts or sold. So from all of us to all of you, have a safe and happy Thanksgiving, and play pinball.
    150:56
    Keep America strong. Bye.