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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 30: Neil McRae In The USA

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Feb 1, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Neil McRae discusses UK pinball, tournament organization, and competitive play strategies.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast episode featuring Neil McRae from the UK discussing European pinball culture, his experiences at major tournaments (UK Open, Indisc), streaming differences between regions, and competitive pinball practice strategies. The hosts explore the differences between US and European pinball markets, celebrate the growing streaming community, and dive deep into tournament play mechanics and preparation.

Key Claims

  • Europe's pinball market is significantly smaller than the US, with only one distributor in the UK compared to two or three per US state

    high confidence · Neil McRae describing European pinball infrastructure and scale

  • The UK Open 2023/2024 drew 150 players, up from the co-op's typical capacity of 65

    high confidence · Neil describing the growth and success of the UK Open tournament he organized

  • Every competitive pinball player in the UK except one who was out of town attended the UK Open

    high confidence · Neil's statement about UK Open attendance being a point of pride

  • Carl D'Angelo was unwell during Indisc and experienced severe hardware failures with his streaming rig (PC wouldn't boot after the event)

    high confidence · Neil describing technical challenges Carl faced during Indisc streaming

  • Travis managed to plunge and score zero points at Indisc finals, a moment that became a meme in the pinball community

    high confidence · Multiple hosts discussing the infamous zero-score moment at Indisc

  • The zero-score incident on Paragon was caused by a code bug in multiplayer mode where hitting three switches would end the ball, not present in single-player

    high confidence · Neil explaining his investigation of the Paragon malfunction after Indisc

  • There are only a few consistent pinball streamers in the UK, with Neil being the only regular one

    high confidence · Neil's assessment of streaming infrastructure in Europe vs US

  • The UK has approximately four barcades total, none near Neil's location

    medium confidence · Neil describing venue scarcity and explaining why he maintains a personal game collection

Notable Quotes

  • “It's hard to tell you what you're missing. I think the market for pinball in Europe is so much smaller than in the U.S. And we don't have the venues that you have. We don't have the big tournaments that you guys have.”

    Neil McRae @ ~5:00 — Establishes the fundamental structural difference between US and European pinball markets

  • “I would kill for something like that in Europe but it just doesn't exist... all-day local pinball on Twitch, everyone going for it.”

    Neil McRae @ ~8:00 — Identifies what European community lacks most compared to US ecosystem

  • “The level of effort the Indisc guys put in... Carl wasn't very well over the Indisc weekend. And also he had some really bizarre hardware problem with his streaming rig that actually when he got it back, it didn't even boot. The machine's completely dead.”

    Neil McRae @ ~23:00 — Highlights invisible operational challenges at major tournaments despite apparent smooth broadcasts

  • “I've got two goals one to enjoy it and two to play as good as I could play and if that means I'm first hooray if that means I'm last that's also hooray”

    Neil McRae @ ~18:00 — Philosophy underlying casual competitive participation at world-class tournaments

  • “When it does go right, holy moly, is that an epic feeling. Yeah. I mean, it's just – it really is amazing when you go like, yes.”

    Neil McRae @ ~40:00 — Captures the emotional payoff that drives pinball competition

  • “The best thing by far that I did was I just turned all my Stern games at home to, like, just murder pins... No ball save. There was no parachute. and no restarting games.”

    Joel (host) @ ~45:00 — Describes specific training methodology for competitive pinball preparation

  • “If you can turn your games at home into the most difficult games you'll ever see, it makes life a lot easier... If there's 10 other people not making that adjustment, you have the advantage right off the bat.”

    Joel (host) — Articulates competitive advantage through deliberate practice design

Entities

Neil McRaepersonTriple Drain Pinball PodcastorganizationIndisceventUK OpeneventCarl D'AngelopersonParagongameTravisperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: High-level competitive pinball community shares information openly about rule sets and strategies; cooperation supersedes competitive secrecy

    high · Travis: 'we readily share information with each other... the information is all out there anyways, and so we have to trust our skill to perform'

  • ?

    community_signal: UK pinball has consolidated competitive participation with every active UK player attending UK Open except one, suggesting strong community cohesion despite market size limitations

    high · Neil: 'every single competitive pinball player in the U.K. except one guy who was out of town came to the U.K. Open'

  • ?

    community_signal: Competitive pinball community emphasizes accessibility and approachability despite world-championship level stakes; gate-keeping is minimal and information-sharing is cultural norm

    high · Travis: 'the vast majority of people are very cool, very approachable... if Tom comes up to me and asks me how to play a game... somebody will know'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Paragon (Gottlieb) has multiplayer-specific code bug causing premature ball end after three switch hits; not present in single-player testing, suggesting inadequate tournament/multiplayer QA

    high · Neil's investigation: 'If you hit three switches... that was it you were done on a multiplayer game... A little bit unfortunate... hard way to learn... on the world championship'

  • $

    market_signal: International tournament travel is becoming normalized for serious players despite geographic and cost barriers; Indisc and UK Open attracting cross-Atlantic participation

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.336

0:00
All right. Sorry. Just before this episode starts, I just want to let you guys know that we are not going to discuss the pinball awards. Reason being, we recorded this on the Friday before the pinball awards. So none of the other guys knew the results. So we are not covering that. This is obviously coming out after the fact, but we'll absolutely cover that on the next episode. So in the meantime, enjoy the conversation. Thanks. the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right tom are you ready yes when video killed the radio star oh wonderful travis are you ready sure sure great all right here we go 1970s reference isn't it or 80s? It's a great reference. It's a MTV intro. I was barely even born then, Tom.
0:58
I'm hitting the button. We're All right. Jason needs to do more of those. Yes, Jason. Yes, Jason Leibel, thank you very much. Shout out to the Pinball Party Podcast. Yes, so Jason is the one who made that intro for us. What I'm realizing is now that we're doing video, while that song's playing, we're just sitting here either dancing to it or looking dumb. So if somebody wants to, like, build an actual video intro. What do you mean you just realized this? I asked you this two weeks ago. Well, I'm not going to make the video intro. I asked you if we had an intro, and you're like, I don't know. And then I see on YouTube, it's just us sitting there. And then I ask you again, and you're like, oh, don't worry about it. It's fine. Well, to all of our listeners, I would not expect, you know, Travis to, like, contribute to this podcast and maybe make a video intro. But if somebody else wants to make a video intro for this podcast, just show Travis in their comfy. Just show your fat around.
2:12
Like, I'm contributing here. You guys have pinball machines. I have IKEA furniture. Okay. Yeah, well, it is a substantial improvement on last episode. But, yeah, so last episode we did do a 29.5 where we did just kind of a one-off. It was just Travis and I, and we talked about InDisc, really focusing on what Carl did and how well Travis did. So people are enjoying that. But otherwise, we're doing video. We're going to keep doing video as well as audio. We just realized there's a ton of listeners out there that would prefer YouTube, so we're just going to keep with that. But, yeah, here's episode 30, kind of a landmark episode. Really excited about that. And when we were talking about what are we going to talk about, what are we going to talk about on this episode, we realized we needed an extra ball. We needed somebody else to contribute to this conversation. And we wanted this person, well, everybody on video can see it. It's Neil McRae. Neil is here from the U.K. Neil, thank you. Good morning to you. I'm just wearing this extra ball shirt. Good evening. Yeah, we're recording this at 10 a.m. my time, 9 a.m. Travis and Tom. So what time is it there, Neil? 3.15, almost what we call gin o'clock. Gin o'clock? Yeah. So it's late, but I appreciate it. It's not too late. I did one with Marty where it was like 2 in the morning because he lives on another planet, not just another continent. Well, you said 3.15. Got it. Okay. Yeah, 3.15. So, yeah, late afternoon. 3.15 on a Friday. You're good. For Joel, that's super late, evidently. His bedtime is like 5.30 in the afternoon. That is far from the truth.
@ ~47:00

  • “There's probably like a couple of people that you don't necessarily want to approach when they're in the middle of a game or something like that, just out of respect. But the vast majority of people are very cool, very approachable.”

    Travis (co-host) @ ~36:00 — Affirms inclusive community culture at competitive events despite high stakes

    • Joelperson
    Tomperson
    Pinball Republicorganization
    European Championship Series (ECS)event
    Flippin' Outorganization
    Backhand Pinballorganization
    Gottliebcompany
    Sterncompany

    high · Neil attending 3-4 US tournaments annually; US players attending UK Open; Australian players at Indisc

  • ?

    event_signal: UK Open successfully scaled from 65-person venue capacity to 150-person tournament, establishing Neil's ability to run major international events

    high · Neil describing growth from co-op venue limitations to hosting 150 players at larger venue with hotel accommodations

  • $

    market_signal: European pinball market operates at fundamentally different scale with single distributor per country vs 2-3 per US state, creating cost and availability barriers

    high · Neil: 'there's two or three distributors in just about every state in the U.S. There's only one here in the U.K.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Indisc streaming experienced critical infrastructure failures (Carl's PC completely dead post-event, health issues during broadcast) but maintained broadcast quality, indicating robust contingency planning

    high · Neil: 'Carl wasn't very well over the Indisc weekend... his streaming rig... the machine's completely dead... yet he managed... the stream still went out and still looked phenomenal'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Travis's zero-score Indisc moment shifted from embarrassment to community celebration, reframed as demonstration of high-level competition and technical pinball knowledge

    high · Neil: 'I became a meme on pinball... I said this to you at the time To get that far in an event like that... It's just a major achievement in pinball... Really good to watch'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Streaming has become critical infrastructure for pinball tournament viability and international community building; technical reliability is now expected at major events

    high · Neil: 'I got Mark to come over from the U.S. because he's got a massive U.S. audience' and desire to bring together US/European/Australian players through streaming infrastructure

    • 3:51
    So the reality is we want to talk about Bond. And so I know, Neil, well, before we dive into all of our topics. So first thing, Neil, you are from the U.K. And this is a very broad question. But can you describe European pinball? Like, what are we missing here in America? Like, how is pinball perceived over in Europe, or is there different challenges that you guys face that most of – I mean, the majority of our listeners are American. So what are we missing out when it comes to pinball outside of America? Joel just wants to know if there's tea time over there during the event. I'll be honest with you.
    4:31
    It's hard to tell you what you're missing. I think the market for pinball in Europe is so much smaller than in the U.S. And we don't have the venues that you have. We don't have the big tournaments that you guys have. We don't have the, you know, there's two or three distributors in just about every state in the U.S. There's only one here in the U.K.
    4:55
    So the scale is a lot smaller. The traveling, you know, I'll meet up with you guys all over the place. people who travel in Europe is much rarer so it's hard to get a big event or do a show but maybe here we play for fun, most of the tournaments aren't for money except the UK Open which we'll talk about later but it's a much more, pinball is probably where it was I don't know, 5 or 6 maybe even 7 years ago where it was In the US Don't get me wrong we've got some great players Some fantastic players We've also got some great Distributors and mod makers here And you know There's a great vibe here But it's on a different scale And the challenge with that is It just makes everything more expensive Because all the games get shipped from Chicago Most of the parts we need Come from the US That just makes everything A bit more expensive which then makes the market smaller over and over. But we've got a good community here. The UK is probably one of the smallest European communities, which is one of the reasons why I come to the US so much because I want to do more and it's just easier to do that and work lets me do it. So I wouldn't say you're missing anything.
    6:23
    I think the community, you know, there's like a, we all kind of know of each other. There's a great community like that here. Again, some of you guys have met. Some of those players at Indisc, we had Arvid over and Andy from the UK as well as me. So you'll have met some of them. But I wouldn't pinpoint anything that's missing. If I was to say what are we missing in Europe, I think talking about states shortly, I would love for something like that to be in Europe, where you've got all-day local pinball on Twitch, everyone going for it. And I find that super exciting. I would kill for something like that in Europe but it just doesn't exist so if I think about the number of barcades in the UK, there's maybe four in the whole UK and none of them are near me which is why I have this shed full of games really yeah and I'm jealous of that shed Domino Arcade is I think your YouTube channel and I've seen your videos they're very entertaining, very cool incredibly impressive shed And it's a fantastic background on the video, just like Tom's background. And mine is kind of a small version of that. And Travis's background is a table.
    7:40
    I have a diffuser back there, too, that changes colors. Yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate it. Neil, you had mentioned Twitch. So one thing that surprised me, I now stream for Flippin' Out on YouTube, And what we're seeing is there's a lot of views that are coming in overnight, and that's because people are watching it overseas. So, like, from a Twitch standpoint or a streaming standpoint, how good is the community over in Europe? I mean, is there consistent streamers? Is there consistent media during the day when you're awake for that? I mean, I would say no. I mean, the only consistent pinball streamers are really probably JDL, who does tournaments. In the UK, I personally Am the only regular streamer And I'm not even that regular There's a couple other streamers in the UK They just kind of do it ad hocly There's We Love Pinball Which I think is part of TPS Sorry, TPN Yeah, they're in Germany They're good guys They're usually on Roundabout now actually Late evening in Germany They're good guys You've got, what's his name I forget his name Another German Streamer that's on A lot, he does cool t-shirts I forget his name but He's always on but you know That's one of the other challenges in Europe We all speak different languages And that is definitely The guys in Germany All speak English but When they're streaming they're kind of Focused on their own local Players mostly so Not a huge number of streamers And Actually that's one of the reasons why I kind of had a slightly weird Approach to how I did streaming at the UK Open Because I wanted to get an audience So yeah It's You know there's people experimenting but I wouldn't say There's a regular Sort of streaming regime out here Which again is a shame Video game wise it's huge I mean massive but Pinball less so Yeah, I just, especially since COVID, I mean, I feel like almost any point in the day, at least over here in America, you can open a Twitch, go to pinball, and somebody's streaming something. Like, it's awesome that that's so readily available. But I know as somebody like myself who does stream, it's almost like I've completely forgotten about the European market or the Australians. You know, anybody overseas that happens to be asleep, I mean, they want the content. And so hopefully they watch them after the fact or restreams or videos up, you know, later on. But, yeah, I know you had mentioned the UK Open. We can go straight into that. You streamed the UK Open? Well, here, just preface it. What was the UK Open? Who all was there? Yeah, so in Europe we have this championship called ECS, European Championship Series. And it's made up of, I think, about six or seven tournaments across Europe. One of them is the UK Open And again These tournaments are typically Being ran on a kind of smaller scale Round about 60-70 players Okay But with Covid a lot of them Have kind of Some of them are in a bit of flux because of Covid Believe it or not still So I think it's the guys in Belgium where The venue they used to use for the Belgian Open Has still Has become like a hospice for long COVID sufferers or something like that. So they've lost their venue. There's a couple of other places. I think Dutch Open has got a venue issue.
    11:23
    And when I kind of announced the UK Open last year, I also helped run a pinball co-op called Pinball Republic here in London. When I announced it, I got kind of a lot of the European guys saying, oh, we're coming, we're coming. And I kind of had a heart attack because We don't have a venue that's big Our Pinball Republic place isn't big enough For probably more than 65 people So I had a chat With the Pinball Republic guys That helped run the co-op And I said look guys let's have a go at going big I can get some sponsors I can get some People will find a proper room, proper hotel And we'll go big I have to say none of them were really convinced about it But I was like don't worry about it We won't lose any money, I'll cover it Whatever it takes, we'll get it done And last September, October We had a massive tournament It was bigger and better than I could have ever imagined We got 150 players Nice And the streaming part of it was You know Jim, who does a lot of European streaming In Germany I did think about asking him to help I actually asked Caldiangelo first For two reasons One, he's an epic streamer, probably the best.
    12:42
    Two, he also runs the software that runs the tournaments, so having him locally in the UK in case anything went wrong kind of made sense. So it was fantastic. Loads of the Europeans came over. Quite a few U.S. guys came over. I got Mark from Backhand Pinball to do the stream. Kyle couldn't make it because he had work and stuff, which is a shame. Mark does an awesome job too. Now you've located it up there. So all you had to do, I had all the gear. All you had to do was fly over and just set it up.
    13:15
    And, you know, it went pretty well. We had a couple of issues, a couple of stupid things that you do in events.
    13:23
    And, you know, it was awesome. And now, you know, kind of everyone's, everyone said, I'm coming to the UK Open, Neil, and I'm kind of now nervous that it could get even bigger. So it's a good problem I have. I now know that I can run a scale event. Awesome. And you said you did something unique with streaming because you were trying to get views. What were you doing in that sense? Yeah, the uniqueness was I got Mark to come over from the U.S. because he's got a massive U.S. audience.
    13:54
    And you know what it's like when you see that thing on your phone, so-and-so started streaming. That just pings people up. When Tom does streaming from D82, if I'm here and I see it, I'm usually in a boring meeting, but I've got Tom and the D82 guys doing something. So having that audience, I really wanted to... In pinball, we've either got US events or we've got European events. And there's one Australian event, right? What I wanted to try and do is, how do I try and bring as many of those people together as one event? And actually, we've got a few guys from Australia. I was stunned by this.
    14:34
    A few guys from the U.S., loads of guys from Europe. And actually, the one thing I was probably most proud of, actually, every single competitive pinball player in the U.K. except one guy who was out of town came to the U.K. Open. That's awesome. So there was no one missing. And for me, that was like a really helpful bit of support. Yeah, that's awesome. And I know you had made the trip over to Indisc. I know obviously Travis and I discussed that kind of in detail a lot last episode, but I'm very curious, you know, Tom and Neil, what were your thoughts on Indisc? I know obviously Mitch Carl. I mean, it's like there's almost in my mind there's like two parts of Indisc. One, you have the incredible high-end competitive, like the competitors. The skill level is absurd. But then two, like the streaming aspect and the entertainment aspect and the commentators aspect sets Indisc apart. So, I mean, both of you guys stream. Tom, you obviously stream with Fox Cities constantly, all the time, tournaments. How was that, you know, what was that like working with Carl, seeing the way Carl worked? Yeah, well, like Neil said, Carl's kind of the creme de la creme of pinball streaming. So it was awesome.
    15:50
    You know, and Neil and I got to announce together, which was really cool. but Indisc is just one of those tournaments that's one of the best ones out there I had a good time even though I didn't make the Open but I did good at a couple of the classic events but it was fun I definitely plan to go back next year That's awesome and Neil I'm trying to say this as lovingly as possible, but you are at the majority of these huge tournaments, which is incredible that you are traveling over for these. Now, when I see qualifiers, I don't see your name qualifying that often, but, yeah, you still make the trek and are an avid tournament player, which is incredible. I think that's so great that you love it so much. Yeah, look, I mean, so I'm one of those players that kind of has to concentrate for like three weeks and practice like hell and then I can play well. So, you know, I've come third and fourth in the UK tournaments. I've done better in Europe.
    17:03
    Actually, last year I played, I mean, actually this room, it's a bit depressing to say this, but last year with work and a bunch of other stuff going on, I didn't play an awful lot of practicing at pinball. And if I don't practice, I'm done, basically. You then add that to jet lag and the fact that I last year and it's been on this downhill cycle but look I go to tournaments to my only goal is I've got two goals one to enjoy it and two to play as good as I could play and if that means I'm first hooray if it means I'm last that's also hooray I just try to play the best that I can and sometimes actually I get towards Towards the end, towards, I mean, Indisc, let me just comment on Indisc for a minute. Indisc is an outstanding event from my point of view. Running an event like that, the work that's required is an insane level. And Jim, Carl, the whole team there, you know, I think they knock it apart. In fact, the UK Open, I've literally stole every idea that they've got and used it in the UK Open. The format's the same. The system's the same. You know, I even tried to get Carl to come over and help stream it because I wanted that to be the same. Because it's such a high-quality event, right? Absolutely. But it's freaking hard. I mean, it's such a difficult event. And I kind of look at, you know, I'm not a great player. I have my moments. I've had a couple of things. But, you know, I play to enjoy it. It's my way of chilling out when I'm not working.
    18:41
    And, you know, I get to meet great people. So from my point of view, it's – and if I wasn't there, I'd be in here kind of flipping by myself. So I might as well, you know, I'm lucky enough I can jump on a plane or usually tie it up with work, which is how it usually works.
    18:56
    But the level of effort the Indisc guys put in, actually one thing I'll point out, and I'm not sure a lot of people know this, one, Carl wasn't very well over the Indisc weekend. And also he had some really bizarre hardware problem with his streaming rig that actually when he got it back, it didn't even boot. The machine's completely dead And yet He managed, I was trying to help him with stuff We were unplugging cards And all through that The stream still went out and still looked phenomenal But there was a load of challenges And actually Carl was saying We kind of dodged a bullet in many respects And that's the thing If your PC goes down You're dead So Overall I love coming to these events, they're great They're a lot of fun, the community is phenomenal There's so many great people out there That It's fun to meet them If there's anything that frustrates me It's quite often you don't get a long enough time to see everybody But That's a nice problem to have I think But yeah I mean I'm doing three or four again This year I'm going to try and get myself Organised so that I play a bit better In a few of them and get out a bit earlier, get used to the time zone, do a bit more practicing. But, yeah, I have to really make an effort. Otherwise, I'm just not good enough. But I think that says a lot, though, that even if you're not practicing or even if you know you're showing up to Indus where 60 of the top 100 players are going to be there, but you're there for the community. You're there for the people. And the fact that I just think that says a lot about tournament players and the community of pinball that like they're good people. They're good people. It's a good time. Even if you don't think you can be a top competitor. Well, that's what I was going to ask you about, Joel, because I was watching the flipping out stream that you guys did your live show. Sure. I think. Yeah, I think it was even Craig Bobby. He was alluding to, I guess, some people like to keep, I guess, keep rules to themselves and stuff like that. And, you know, I just want to make sure that people realize the very much vast majority of any players, you know, even top tier players. It's like we readily share information with each other. And I think the important thing to establish, too, at Indus, this is a world championship, right? Yep. But everybody is still approachable. I mean, for the most part, I will admit that there's probably like a couple of people that you don't necessarily want to approach when they're in the middle of a game or something like that, just out of respect. But the vast majority of people are very cool, very approachable. You come up, you ask a question about a game, somebody will tell you. I mean, it's like the information is all out there anyways, and so we have to trust our skill to perform. So it's like we're not hiding any one thing. It's like if Tom comes up to me and asks me how to play a game and I don't want to tell him, guess what? He'll just go to like Neil or somebody, you know what I mean? And then like somebody will know and vice versa. It's like everybody knows. Neil will spill the beans on everything. Everybody goes to Neil. It's also one thing knowing what to do and then executing on it. Exactly. And in that moment, you know, the other thing, I suffer from insane nerves when I'm playing pinball. It's just nuts. And in my work, I speak at conferences with 15,000 people in front of me that I don't know, and I can rattle off no problem. You put me in front of a pinball machine with four people standing behind me and a ton of jelly.
    22:40
    It's so infuriating. It's tough. Well, that goes back to you alluded to practice earlier. And that's something that we don't often talk about, even on this podcast, although one of us probably needs it a little bit more than others. I'm not going to name names, Joel, though, about that. But that being said, it's like when it comes to pinball, I think everybody can speak to this. It's just there's so many things that are happening at one time. You've got so much chaos going on, like my camera going out, for instance. But you have the silver ball swag. There is El Gato No Signal t-shirt. But to continue my thought, it's like you're playing, so you have to know, one, the shot geometry of the game. And, two, you have to know how the flippers are flipping, how the rubbers are bouncing. You have to understand, do you have weak flippers? Do you have strong flippers? Are they flopped down? Are they sitting high? Those are all things you have to know. Then you have to account for flipper hop or if a rubber's off. And then on top of that, you're accounting for the rule set itself. Like, where are you at in the game? And then, like Neil just talked about a second ago, the nerves, too. I mean, if you're on stream, it's different. If you're in a situation to where you know you have to do one more thing, that one more thing might feel like it's a mile away, even though it's one easy shot. So there's just so much that goes into it together that it is. It's hard to put that all together. It's like one chaotic symphony that all has to somehow go together to make things go right. Yeah. No. And, yeah, you talk about – Sorry to interrupt you, but one time I just built on what Joe said. When it does go right, holy moly, is that an epic feeling. Yeah. I mean, it's just – it really is amazing when you go like, yes. Yeah. And, you know, that is the buzz of pinball for me. And I've – believe it or not, I've had moments like that. But it's not in a tournament strategy. It's on stream. And, yeah, it can be an incredibly satisfying feeling for sure. Joel, you had that moment at Cleveland, all right? You took, what, the 89th? That was more impressive than we thought. Yeah, exactly. You set the bar high and you dominated. So, in-disc, I'm very curious. There was a moment at in-disc that was unlike anything I've ever seen. I don't know if we'll ever see anything like that again. I'm extremely curious to know, Tom and Neil, what were your thoughts in this moment? And, of course, I'm talking about when Travis managed to plunge away his ball and get zero points. So, Zero-Zero, when you guys were sitting there in the audience and you saw this happen, what were your thoughts? I literally went to dinner and came back and it happened. So maybe I jinxed it for Travis, but it's possible. But the funny thing is – My podcast partner leaves me while I'm playing in a world championship. He's like – He was hungry. I'm hungry. I was hungry. Travis, you're on your own. See you. Bye. Yeah. But the funny thing is we just had our state competition, and Neil Graff was playing me on Paragon. And he did – that tilt on that game is super tight. It's actually a little too tight. And he did a tap – he was practicing a tap pass, and he actually got a zero because he tilted the game practicing a tap pass. So before he even plunged? Yes.
    26:10
    He tilted the game with the ball in the shooting range. Was that during the actual game or was that during practice? During the actual game. It's on stream. So I'm like, yeah. No, just kidding. That's a start, everybody. I was like, well, that's unfortunate. You'll take the win, yeah. Neil I was actually in the streaming area and everyone, I kind of thought what's the ruling on this and I see a couple of other folks ask me, in fact Carl asked me how would you rule on this and I can play epic music right now by the way it's Avengers it's okay, let it go that was his background it was like building Yeah, there was a moment going on, Joel. You just, you and Joel. Pinball moments, Joel. You just, sorry, I pooped all over it. So, let me start again. So, Luke, I was actually in the streaming area, and I was watching, you know, on the big screen, and I was trying to think, Craig, what's the ruling on this? Because it was clear that, for me, it was clear that Travis was doing the, you know, don't activate the play field thing, right? That was obvious. And also it was clear to me that Travis knows what he's doing He's not going to do something That isn't going to work So I kind of thought Something has happened to that machine That has caused this But we were kind of kicking around And I think Josh Sharp Was on the other side of me Or one of the Sharps were And Carl asked me I said well the ball end of the play field From my point of view The game was on unfortunately But actually I don know I don know if you know but I actually went back and tested what happened Because weird puzzles like that infuriate me And what I found was in single player you could ping all day I mean, you could do it over and over and over and over again, no problem. In the finals, you got other players. And also Gottlieb, or Gottlieb, I never know how to pronounce that. Weird American thing They're not known for great code Right And you know They're probably not known for tournament play either Actually so You know what happened was If you hit three switches And I repeat this several times If you hit three switches That was it you were done on a multiplayer game So a little bit unfortunate And a hard way to learn And especially on the world championship on stream I was like, oh, my God.
    28:53
    But, you know, that's pinball, right? That's why we love it for these kind of wacky idiosyncrasies. We just hope that they don't happen to us. Or when they happen, you kind of learn from it and move on. Travis was going for the low score strat. He told me. I was lulling everybody into a false sense of security. I actually checked if there was like a no score final thing, you know, because Indus were giving away these coins. Wait a minute Is he going for that For a moment In the finals I didn't get that but I became a meme On pinball I know you guys Covered this but look I said this to you at the time To get that far in an event like that When the competition was so high It's just a major achievement in pinball And it was great to watch Really good to watch I appreciate it It definitely took a lot of work and just going back, a lot of deliberate practice and endless hours that people really don't realize because there is still people out there that think that there's an element of pinball that's just or that pinball is just lucky. I mean, of course, you have to have some sort of element of luck, but you have to put yourself in position to experience that luck too. You almost have to make your own. So, yeah, it's just I think anybody that watches that that is just not getting into competitive pinball or they are dominating their local area, they haven't ventured out yet to play against national-level competition, just know that it does take a lot of practice, but you can do it. You just got to study up on rule sets. You have to really work on flipper skills. And the best thing you can do, the best thing by far that I did was I just turned all my Stern games at home to, like, just murder pins. I mean, outlays were gone. Rubbers were gone. No ball save. There was no parachute. and no restarting games. It's like you have to achieve this and then you have to do that. And that helps. I mean, if you can turn your games at home into the most difficult games you'll ever see, it makes life a lot easier. Because what's the number one thing you guys hear a pinball player say when they go out to a new location or they're playing at a tournament? They're just like, this game plays weird. This game plays different. If you can't adjust, you're done. So why not just make your game like one game at home? Play ultra hard. So guess what? It makes it easy for you to adjust once you're in that situation. Then you make the adjustments. Guess what? If there's 10 other people not making that adjustment, you have the advantage right off the bat. That's what Joel does. Yeah, yeah. I like to have fun with them all. Joel turns his games into 10 ball. I do not. I never put. I never. Rubber bands on the out lanes.
    31:41
    We know what Joel does. The other thing, I mean, I do the same thing, Travis. The other thing I've done is got the glass off and just practice shots, just being accurate. That's where I struggle is I'm just not accurate on shots. And you miss something and then you're in recovery mode.
    31:57
    And, yeah, you can practice recovery mode, which you need to practice, of course. But the best way of not getting into that is to be shot accurate. And that is, for me, that's where the practice pays off for me. Yeah, for sure. And that's one thing, just watching the stream and seeing these high-end competitors. I mean, it's clear that their flipper skills and their accuracy is insane, but it's the recovery. It's the being able to get the ball back in control, back cradled up, you know, and get the ball where they want. That's just absurd. Well, to me, that's beautiful to watch, too. I know that, of course, going back to what you guys talked about, Joel, with your group, that I know that there's a lot of people that if they're just now watching pinball, or there's a group of people that may not like watching competitive pinball because they see the same shot happening over and over and over again. But to me, there's a beauty in that. It's like figuring out a puzzle. It's chess. You see a spot, and you exploit it, and you keep going for it, and you have to skillfully do it. And a large part of people that watch, like, pinball tutorials and stuff like that, they see how to approach a game, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's how you approach it from a tournament standpoint. And I think that's what's exciting about pinball right now is you see things rapidly evolving to where you even have top-tier players that are like, huh, I never thought of approaching a game from that way, using this different pathway or just picking out this shot. And that's the biggest thing. It's not necessarily about continuously going for the highest scoring shot. Sometimes it's about going for the safest shot and repeating that process. If you can hit the safe shot five times in a row and you can get to the same spot that you would be if you took an unnecessary risk to take one or two shots at something, you might be better off taking the five shots. And that's just, I mean, to be honest with you, it's not easy doing the same shot over and over and over again. It looks like it is for some people, but it takes a lot of brain power to stay calm, stay under control, tell yourself you're going to hit that shot, and then keep going. Yeah, it might be boring for some people to watch, but if you're watching, like, again, high-level chess, and you watch somebody sitting there for 10 minutes to make one decision because they're playing the whole game out in their head, I mean, if you have an appreciation for competitive and for tournament, that's what you want to see. You know, for me, I'm more excited about that personally than I am watching somebody go for a wizard mode or watching somebody blow up a game that's just set to baby settings. Like, that does nothing to excite me at all. It just doesn't. I get it.
    34:34
    No, I totally get what you're saying, and I know that is quite a conversation. When I did the Flippin' Out with Friends stream and Zach was on that, I know Zach Minney has some very differing opinions when it comes to what he feels pinball entertainment should be. And you've got these two sides of it, like the storyline aspect of it, the wizard mode pursuit. How do we show people that pinball is more than just repeating a shot? or, you know, there's challenges there with, you know, when you look at the stream, you look at some of the final games that are being played when there's 10,000-plus people watching. It's some of these older games. You have bad girls being streamed. It's like, why are we not streaming these newer pins that can be sold? And I just, I think, I understand what Zach wants, but I also understand what tournament pinball is, And I know that, you know, it was, to me, seeing something like, how is Keith and Escher and Travis going to handle a bad girls? I have no idea. I know what they're going to do to a Godzilla. They're going to blow it up. They're going to blow it up, and we're going to see a ton of the game, and the game's going to be an hour and a half long. But what are they going to do on bad girls or a fast game? Like, what was it, Flash Gordon or something? It's like, let's see. Let's see what happens here. And I thought that was great. Well, to me too, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong or chime in here, but to me that's what makes it exciting as well. It's like I can see both trains of thought, and I think both trains of thought can be correct under the right circumstances. I think that there is a time and place to watch somebody chase a wizard mode and this and that. I just don't think something like that will ever be more popular than tournament pinball. And the reason being is if you're a casual, there's a lot of casuals that can't even find the start button. You know what I mean? So they're not going to know what they're seeing, that you've gotten past this multiball and this mode, and all of a sudden you've activated this. It's too much input. You know, this is stuff that we all have to study on to understand how it goes forward. So how is somebody going to readily understand that just reading it real quick and seeing it? Whereas if you do have a little bit older game, it's easy to understand what's going on. You watch Bad Girls, for instance, you know, oh, they're hitting down the drop target. They're hitting it back in the saucer up top. They're going to get into multi-ball, and then they're going to start whaling on shots. And then you see the hurry-up, and you know that they're going to aim for the targets. So stuff like that, I think that that's easier for people to digest. But I do agree that there is a time and place to maybe add in the Stern games or the newer games, which we do have tournaments like Expo and the Stern Pro Circuit finals that has that. And I know we talked about this too, Joel. I just want to correct the record that I misspoke a little bit last time when we were talking about Keith Elwin's picks. He did still have his Stern picks, but I knew that he was not going to pick those. Because why fight fire with fire against Escher and Zoller and just my dumb ass over in the corner trying to keep up? But, you know, why do that? Go to your strengths. And he is just, I mean, he's spectacular on pins like Firepower and Bad Girls and all that. So I think that there's a time and place for it. I can see it from both points of view. It's just the problem is if you want to use new Stern pens or a situation like that, it has to be highly produced in order to convey to the viewer what is going on. You need an active telestrator. You need commentators that know exactly what they're talking about and they know exactly what to say, when to say it, because the action unfolds immediately. So you have no time to breathe. So it's like if one thing's happening over here and you're trying to convey that to the viewer, if they're brand new, two or three other things have already happened now. And now they're constantly playing catch up. And it's just it's too much. Like, imagine again, I keep using this analogy, but this perfect analogy. Imagine watching speed chess or bullet chess that lasts one minute. How are we going to describe all the moves that are happening to somebody that's never watched chess before? Yeah, it's interesting. So in my job, we run a TV channel called BT Sport. We do Barclays Premier League and everything else And I went to talk to them about Hey guys can we do like pinball Even if you put it out at 2 in the morning And they took a look at it And their big issue was the complexity of it And what they said was Hey Neil look if you were to run a tournament Where every game was the same game You could be onto something But trying to figure out how you explain To people who Don't know pinball All these different details Just impossible And you know They were up for it You get 10 of the same games and we'll do it And if you think about the stern Challenge that they do I was just going to say that That worked, that worked really well So you know That's one of the great things about pinball But it's also you know Maybe from a wider media point of view It's one of the things that limits pinball But I don't think, I would much rather have You know thousands of different games Than be stuck playing the same game all the time for sure Right. Well, for sure, the answer is actually right in front of us. And I haven't heard anybody else say this, but I truly believe that this is the answer. You you bring the best of both worlds together. You have a single level game, which happens to be Bond 60. You have a theme that is relevant. Right. You have a theme that's current and you have the lights. You have something that's modern. If you bring something that's modern into a single level to where the rule set isn't near as complex, can readily be explained, can be easy to understand, I think that's how you bridge the gap together. So, for instance, if we took Deadpool behind you, Joel, and that was a single-level game, a casual would be able to understand what is happening so much easier. I promise you, a casual seeing ramps and seeing all this and that, that doesn't really clue in with them. what clues in is the lights and the theme. That's what clues in. And you look, that's why TNA is popular even with us. That's why you've talked about your friends and family that show up. What game do they go to? They go to TNA and they want to do one thing over and over again. So I think that that's really if there was somebody that produced games to where they were relevant themes and they were basically a single level game, that's easy to understand. I think that's how you bridge that gap. Now that being said, I don't know if that makes money from selling it to people or anything like that. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But I truly do believe that's how you bridge the gap when it comes to getting people to understand pinball on that level and get the interest there. No, that's actually a really good point. So classics tournament. Classics, well, yeah. Classics with a modern theme. And that's the thing. I mean, imagine if you had 20 grand for it. Well, yeah. Let's say, for instance, Cheetah isn't Cheetah. What if Cheetah was Jurassic Park? Well, you're talking about like Beatles. Beatles, obviously, like it's a single level. I get it. I see what you're saying. The simplicity of the layout, the simplicity of, and I do think Fox Cities, you guys do incredibly well, and so does Carl within this, but like having commentators that truly describe what are we trying to accomplish here. Right now, what is the player thinking? The telestrator is huge, and I know I was trying to figure that out. I was like, why are they not, you know, we got to the finals. Why are they not using the telestrator? Turns out the telestrator broke. That's why they weren't using it because Steve Bowden's like, yeah, he wants, you know, hitting that right orbit. I'm like, just draw the path. Like, show us what they're trying to do. And I think, I mean, it's very clear competitive-wise and streaming-wise we are only improving on the entertainment factor of that, not to mention the skill levels continuing to grow. But I do see what you're saying, Travis, about the simplicity of a single-level game or even a classic game, being able to communicate what is the goal here. that's a whole lot easier to communicate than Godzilla where they're like well they could be pursuing one of I don't know six multi balls and are they going to go this route or that route or rush you know some of these codes that are just I mean as a player we love but yes communicating that from a tournament standpoint would be a challenge um I do know for all the listeners this this has been very tournament heavy we have just a little bit more tournament talk to do and then we're going to take a big shift so tough tough luck yeah yeah So shift here. Travis, behind you, you have two Oklahoma State tournaments, trophies, two Oklahoma State. You have won state. I have an Oklahoma. Oklahoma, yes. You have the one that's spelled wrong. Thank you, Josh. And the one that's spelled right. But you actually have a third one in your house, but it's not yours. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for reminding me. I did not forget, Monica. Yeah. Where's Monica's trophy?
    43:13
    I don't know I think she took it to her office She won the women's state in Oklahoma So congratulations to her Because she actually worked hard And wanted to practice And actually asked me for help What? I know Did she listen to any of it? Hell no I told her on Spiderman I was like stop using the upper flipper Just let it come down Go to a catch And she looks at me and says Okay I'll do that goes right up there. What does she do? Yeah. That upper flipper, just going to town ball going all over the place. But no, so congrats to her and congrats actually to all the women that competed. That one, I was excited to watch that and see it. I've gotten to see, I believe it was, I watched them in California and I think Massachusetts had a stream up. So I tried to watch as much as I could because I mean, it's exciting to see people be in a position to where they get to compete for something that's of that level. And what I hope happens with that, hopefully next year they'll have a women's nationals pop out of it. I'm not sure if they're taking – I think they are taking a dollar now for women's tournaments and all that. So hopefully – Are they still doing a women's nationals, though? Well, it's the Worlds, though. Oh, it's the Worlds. I think it's Worlds. That's being held at Deadflip, right? I think that's like women's Worlds or something like that. But, yeah, there's no nationals that it feeds into. So hopefully – there was a lot of interest, at least from the Oklahoma point of view, of women seeing that. and they wanted to go somewhere. And some of them thought they were going, and even I thought there was going to be a women's national. So it's like finding out that there wasn't yet, a little disappointing. But, hey, I think it's coming, though, because I love the push that's coming with women's tournaments and seeing the ability, too. It's just everybody's getting so much better just over the past couple of years. You could tell that even the young, old, whoever it is, It's just the overall flipper skills and the ability to know what to do and when to do it, you could tell it's getting better and better. So I look for big things coming out of women's tournaments for 2023 for sure. Oh, yeah, and I'm starting to see even more women's names in, like, the open tournaments, like, for everybody. So they're competing right up there with the men in some areas. I mean, Tom, you have a girl at District 82 that just is dominating. What's her name? Cassidy Milanski. Yeah, and she's what, like 17? Yep.
    45:38
    Yeah, she's very good. I'm not kidding. Oh, she's outstanding. And then you got Carrie, Carrie Wing, I believe. And I'm trying to think, Leslie from California. Leslie O'Reilly. Yep. I know that there's another one, too, that I've seen play that I'm impressed with, but I never met her in person. Her name's Elizabeth.
    45:58
    I can't remember the last name. She's like from Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, somewhere. I don't know. I can't pronounce it, but she was at the Cincinnati tournament. I think she actually, I think she made top four in that, if I'm remembering right. But yeah, there's a lot of women players out there that are fantastic, and it's only going to get better. And I know Rachel with, well, she does stuff with, I don't know her last name, Rachel with. Rachel Aristo. Yeah, Rachel, she has a podcast on Poor Man's Network, but she also put out a podcast that we released on TPN, where she was talking about women's competitive play and trying to get more women out there in the community that comes with that. So, yeah, I mean, I know it's awesome to see, Travis, that Monica has really taken it on and enjoys doing it, and she's doing very well at it, which is exceptional. She's out for blood, Joel. I heard her in our game room draining and cussing, like just dropping an F-bomb. I was like, oh, it's serious now. It's a thrill. I was going to mention Actually the Indus ladies In the final There's a game of Stargazer Where all four women Players score more than a million Watch that game Because for me That's probably one of the standout games For me that said Actually women's pinball is here And the women players are as Great if not better In terms of skill and quality and capability and that game, I watched that. I'm a massive Stargazer fan as a game, and to see the way they were playing was just amazing. I was inspired by just watching them play. That's awesome. And the other side of states, I mean, Travis, I know you did not compete in states. Tom, you did compete in states, and you did very well. So much drama. Very well in the state of Wisconsin. There was a point where you were battling. So this is head-to-head. So instead of doing like a four-player game and the top two go on or top two, you know, points or anything, this is one-on-one. This is, what is it, heads up? Is that what it's called? No, it's just head-to-head format. Head-to-head. Single elimination, best of seven, so you've got to win four games. Yeah, and there was a point where it was you versus your son. You versus Neil. Yeah. So how did that go and how did that feel on the car ride home? It was fine. Neil took it fine. I mean, honestly, I don't think either of us were playing great, but Neil just really had some bad luck go his way. He picked Deadpool against me. He actually won that game, but, I mean, there were a lot of outlaying drains, you know, unfortunately, and, you know, that's pinball sometimes. That's pinball. So, spoiler alert, you got second. You made it all the way to the end. I had to face Escher from Colorado. Yeah, so that's what I wanted to bring up. All hell, the king of Wisconsin now. Right. I got to get Escher like a Wisconsin shirt or a Packers shirt. Right. And he has to wear it at Nationals. Exactly. That's what's going to happen. We talked about this, Tom. Like, I can no longer claim I'm District 82. Like, Escher is more District 82 than any of us from outside West Lansing. Well, even Josh was saying, you know, like if you look at some people's IFPA cards, there's a lot of District 82.
    49:32
    So, and, you know, it was brought up to me by a lot of people. There was a post on Raymond's Illinois championship on YouTube. Somebody said, hey, what do you think about Escher and the Sharps coming to District 82 for Wisconsin State?
    49:56
    And honestly, I mean, those guys came and played in our state. They earned points. They have the right to pick which state they go to. So to the listeners, just to clarify what's going on here. So this is states. So you would think this is whoever scored the most points in last year can compete for states. Well, you assume you have to be a state resident. That's not the case. It is the 24 top Whopper earners in that state have the ability to play for states. So when you have somebody like an Escher that's traveling all over the U.S. and playing in all these different tournaments, especially when he's winning in them, Escher was one of the top four winners in the state of Wisconsin, even though he lives in Colorado. He was the number one seed. Yes. So he had the most points, which if you look at it, was over 1,000 points. Which is insane. But there's people like Carlos, I know, Laser Lowe's. Like, he's in Ohio. He had multiple states he could pick in. He could have came to Wisconsin. Yeah. So that became a thing. Why? Why would you want? And so you have two trains of thoughts. So you could either, based on the competition, like, well, I don't want to go compete in this state because, you know, Ray Day's there. While the other side of that is, well, where am I going to win the most money? And the money's based off of every single tournament game that has been played in that state. There's a dollar that's set aside for that. And so being that District 82's had so many huge, large tournaments all year long, The prize pool for District 8 for the state of Wisconsin was massive. Over $10,000. Yes. So, I mean, you can't really blame anybody to see all that money just sitting there going, well, if I go there and I do actually decent, I'm going to be taking home a paycheck. So I knew going into my first match, like, if I lose here, I'm still winning $200. Wow, just for showing up. Just for showing up. Yeah. You know, if I make it to the next round, it's $400. If I make it to the next round, it's like $800 or $600 or whatever it was. I mean, that was a lot of money. Yeah. Well, to give an idea how much that actually is, I think the Oklahoma State champion made about the equivalent as somebody in the second round at Wisconsin. Yeah. Which is crazy. It's crazy. It is weird because, yes, you're right, that Escher's flying from Colorado. But, sure, if Escher's going to play in Colorado, potentially win Colorado, why, like, he's incredibly good. I mean, he won in-disc. Well, there's still good players in Colorado, too. I mean, that field is really difficult, too. You've got Jordan Deshane, I think is the last name.
    52:56
    He's really good. He won. He beat Adam Lefkoff, who's Escher's dad. And then you have Walt Wood and Zach McCarthy. He's still great. And Zach McCarthy is phenomenal. And you still have Donovan Stepp, too. And Donovan Stepp, yeah. So it's like, and Donovan's been playing for years in pop-up finals and I'll got her no signals. If I would have played in Wisconsin and won, I could probably afford to keep my camera on. I think it's been very clear that this is not a mechanical problem. This is a unique error. No, this is a me problem. Well, so the thing is, too, is that I used to – well, I still am. I very much wish state would be set up to where whatever state you're in, that's where you play at. Because I wish it would be more community-based. But I do understand that these are the rules. These are what we play within. Right. So I don't blame people for wanting to go play elsewhere, for wanting to go see. Because I know like we had a couple of people come into Oklahoma back in 2020. And for me, I'm just kind of like, OK, I saw that as a challenge. I'm like, I'm going to defend my turf, you know, so it's a unique. So without if a rule was in place, I wouldn't have had that type of challenge either. So, I mean, there's pros and cons to it, but I think at the same time, too, if you tried to do state-line rules, that would just be way too hard to police to implement that rule. And I see it from both sides. So, you know, you might have a situation where somebody lives on the border of two states, and over the border is where all the pinball is at. So do you want to really tell that person, like, hey, you can't come to our state because you're not on the boundary of Wisconsin? Right. The Sheriffs are in Chicago. That's a few-hour drive north to go participate. Yeah, but the funny thing is I don't even know if Josh qualified for any other state. I don't know you did. But Wisconsin. Right. Well, the same thing goes for here around the St. Louis area. You have CP Pinball, which is about 45 minutes from my house, but it's on the Illinois side. So it's Illinois points, so I think that's why we had like five or six or seven people that went from this area or at least that play in that spot, and they went all the way to Chicago for the state. And the same thing happens with Kansas City, where you have people on the Kansas side, Missouri side, you have people qualifying for both. So, yeah, there is cities that borderline states, and that would make it awfully difficult to tell somebody, okay, you don't play here. That might be like an hour away. you have to travel five hours this direction to play in your state. So I see it both sides. But, yeah, but I also, you know, take somebody else's side. I see somebody who, you know, plays in that state, doesn't go anywhere else, and then you know they see somebody else from another state where they like well you bumped me out because I could have taken that spot But then what are we going to tell that person to do Play better.
    56:03
    Just win some more. Play in more events. We're approaching about an hour of tournament talk, which I know is fine. Come on, Joel. It's where it's at. Where are the numbers at on Twitch?
    56:17
    It's all in tournaments. I get it. Watching Joel loop out from the bar. I almost feel like we need to have a poll. I try to make sure that this podcast is balanced. I know we have a lot of tournament players that enjoy this podcast, but I also know there's a lot of players that don't. With that said, though, I mean, our conversation, Travis and I, that we had last episode, we did get some really good feedback on that from people that don't play in tournaments that just enjoyed the tournament. You had one person tell us to not waste server space. That was good feedback. Here's the thing, Joel. We've already talked more tournament talk than a final round podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. And we haven't mentioned one dick. So, I mean, we've got something going.
    56:56
    Well, is there anything to wrap up the tournament talk? No, we just need to go straight to number one now, number one on our production list. All right, number one, this is – so why did we ask for Neil? One, we're trying to obviously – you know, we're going for a global podcast here. So, first off, that's why we – so it's really like, Neil. And Neil's awesome. Yes, clearly. We knew he'd been at almost every one of these tournaments that we've talked about so far, which is incredible. But two, Bond. When I think of James Bond, I think of, you know, Englishmen, right? And it's like, so, you know, there are some Bond fanatics here in the States. I know, like, David Dennis up in Canada, he's a huge Bond guy. But James Bond over in the U.K. is a whole other, I mean, that's a whole other level, right? So, Neil, I know you get in on most of these LEs, but when Bond was announced, how was that like? What was your – I know how Tom reacted to Rush. Do you think you were in a similar boat? Well, kind of, but actually I'll tell you a very short but funny story. So the guys who own the Bond IPE on the Broccoli People, they got a lot of stick for missing the 50th anniversary of Bond. I don't know if you're aware of that. They didn't do anything for the 50th So 10 years ago Yeah, so they decided Well, we better make sure we do something for the 60th Right? And I think if you flip back to 10 years ago Bond was probably in a bit of a weird place With no one quite sure about The current Bond Anyway So the company I worked for We got invited to a meeting with You know, hey, the Eon guys want to have a chat with us This was a few years ago And I'm like, Bond, yeah, I'm going So We were at this session I can't go into what we talked about Unfortunately but One of the things that I think it was my boss or one of my colleagues Happened to mention that I was a big pinball nut And one of the E.ON folks Happened to mention that they might have done a deal With a pinball manufacturer So this was Yeah and actually if you go on Pinside I posted Bond is coming Like four years ago So I kind of knew this was coming Despite many Stern employees telling me Neil you're nuts it's not coming I was like yeah okay Which kind of made me laugh So when it came First of all it's great that it's coming It's a dream theme for me I'm like excellent To oh my god who's designing it Who's writing the code Who's doing the art All the kind of panic moments that you have But you know look You look back at Stern over the last few years It's hard to say that they've got a lot of things wrong. They've got a lot of things right. Don't get me wrong, room for improvement, but I kind of felt, actually, and also, knowing Gomez, he's kind of in the same era of me. I bet he's a big Bond fan. Turns out he is.
    59:58
    So I was super excited, but you know, will they get the right music? What era will it be? It's kind of like, in some respects, it's like Star Wars, where and actually the other IP that fits this is Harry Potter because of those IPs, everybody's got a different mindset about what makes that IP special for them and whoever does get the Harry Potter IP good luck to you because you're going to make loads of people happy and you're going to piss equally as many people off, right? So from that perspective as with Luke, it's a pinball machine based on Bond, you know, I'm in basically And you know So I've been waiting for it Because we have to wait for the games to get shipped over It actually arrived last week Bond LE Unfortunately it's got a bit of damage Oh no Yeah which kind of is unfortunate But again on the flip side I've maybe bought 30 new in box games This is the first one I've ever had any damage with So I kind of Part of me is like well it's not great Other part of me is like well you know That's life and also So I've had a few issues with Stern, and they've always kind of looked after me. So I'm pretty confident that Stern are going to send me either a new machine or a new cabinet.
    61:14
    For sure. Yeah. But I'm also in on the Elwynn game. So I'm very excited about that. We're going to talk about that. So let's one step back. There was the reveal of this game was supposed to happen at a trade show in the U.K., right? Were you there? Were you involved? Yeah, you were there. I was there. So, Alex Croyne, who's the distributor here, a guy called John runs it, a really nice guy.
    61:47
    I helped them out. They've got a location in London where I helped them set up the Stern Insider Connect. I know them well. I'm also obviously a good customer. So, you know, they were like, hey, we're going to have this. And they gave me a – I was invited down there, VIP. It was awesome. and you know, EAG is actually so there's two events in the UK, one is EAG which actually happened last week when we were in Indus, the week before there's another event that was big in the US called IAPA, it's usually in Florida, it's an insane event, if you haven't been there, go, it'll blow your mind usually it happens just before Freeplay Florida and then IAPA have decided to do an international event, they did it in the same venue as EAG and it was huge, I mean I was like wow compared to EAG it was mind-blowingly big everyone who's in Coin.op was there, Bouncy Castles and Popcorn Makers and Pimble Machine, you name it was there, I mean they had this event and unfortunately and you know I don't think whatever decision you make is going to be the right one or the wrong one Our head of state, the Queen, died The week before this event And I think both Stern together with The licensor I think I don't know for sure They decided actually we probably want to hold This off And actually I kind of applaud Stern For that because They're an international company coming to the UK They could have said Who cares about all these British guys We're launching our game right But I don't know if you saw the Olympics With the Queen with Bond In 2012 Where they made it look like she jumped out of a plane And actually some head of state Asked the Mayor if she really did jump out of the plane They did it that real I think it was a great move by Stern It was classy A lot of people were saying They were just trying to do this The game's not ready The game was there I saw them There's unfortunately some really bad photos of it leaked Which is infuriating If there's one thing I think And I'm not just staring Other people might have asked As soon as you see leaked photos Get the real photos out quick Don't wait, get the real ones out Because everyone looks at it I remember Stranger Things That got such a beating Because some photo leaked out from CES Now it's the game that everybody wants And they're paying 20,000 bucks for it For an LE and here in the UK There's about 8 of them in total And they sell like hotcakes So Not a great launch There's a few stumbles, they then relaunched it At the 60th anniversary of Bond There was an event at the British Film Institute I went down there It was actually the same weekend as the UK Open so I kind of Popped over there just to say hello I couldn't stay for very long But all the Bond people were loving The game And it was great to see it And the whole $1.60th anniversary stuff Yeah, no that's awesome So did you Did you have a chance to play the game or see it Before it was released? No, so I played it Well I played it I'm trying to think whether it was released or not by then It was because Well they had put it out on the floor and then they took it off the floor So I don't believe Anyone got to play it At the show at all It was on the floor for one evening, and then the next day it was gone. In fact, you couldn't even find where it was because they wheeled in a whole lot of other games to fill the gap. So there was no, you know, I'm pretty confident no one played them at that event.
    65:45
    At the other launch, then, obviously, people played them. Yeah, so I know, so when it comes to the Gomez Bond, Zach at Flippin' Out has let me borrow one for the last few weeks. I've been playing the heck out of it. You know, props to Stern that they are continuing to put out code updates. The game is, I would say where it's at right now, it's .84 code. I think almost all the major villains are in it. All the henchmen are in it. I think all the weapon modes are in it. the Bond women still don't do anything, and there is still no stacking. So you still can't play multiple modes or multiple things at the same time. Now, I know Travis pointed out, I think it was like today on Facebook, George Gomez said they have full intentions of adding stacking in the next code update. I don't know. Initial impressions, Neil? I mean, if this is a theme that you love, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I did play Bond at Expo, so I was at Expo. The game was there, I was able to play it And my first impression is The core thing The game shoots really well Right, the code was still Very early, no question about it And a lot of work to do But there'd be nothing worse As if the game was clunky Or didn't flow well But I really liked the games And most Gomez games I tend to like But when you look at it from a Bond fan point of view, the artwork is perfect.
    67:15
    And I know a lot of people said, this artwork looks like some guy in Photoshop did it. Well, Photoshop wasn't around in the 60s, guys, so it's meant to look a little bit kind of non-perfect. And if you look at the Bond artwork of that era, especially Connery, it all looks like that. So, you know, they've nailed it. And Amazon just stuck a load of movie posters on the side. Yes, because that artwork is collectible. It's huge in the UK and actually across the world. So, you know, I'm very, I was ecstatic about it. The only thing I might nitpick, why isn't it Ellie Goldfinger? Yeah. You know, why? Why? Vault edition, Neil. You're forgetting about the vault edition. Yeah, that hasn't come out yet. That'll be another sale my wife will get pissed off about.
    68:12
    So, no, that's cool. I'm glad as a Bond fan or fanatic potentially that you're excited about that. And then the other side of that is, and we've talked about this as a group, I think we all love the look or what we're seeing in the Bond 60th edition that Keith has obviously designed. I know, you know, at least the three of us, we were not buying one. And so we're like, well, who are we talking to that is buying one? And boom, Neil. I mean, it was just you. You fit that bill as well. What were your thoughts when that – well, first, did you – like, what were your thoughts when you heard that there was going to potentially be another version of the game, you know, that Keith Elwood – like, you weren't prepared for that, like double dipping your dream team, right? No. I mean, well, look, I mean, this is, I think Travis captured it really well when you guys talked about it, which is what a great time for pinball where you can do something like that. Can you imagine trying to do that, you know, 10 years ago even, five years ago, maybe not? So, you know, and then it's the theme, you know, how many people that are Avengers crazies would love another Avengers Special Limited or, you know, Batman? You know, there's loads of folks that would love their game to have a special edition. And I'm like, yes, my team's got it. Hallelujah.
    69:36
    And then, you know, then my kind of bank manager phoned me and said, in your money, you know, it's kind of, you know, you kind of know, look, this is going to be expensive, like the Beatles, like Batman LE, sorry, Batman 66. So, you know, I knew it was not going to be a low-cost pinball machine. Although, you know, actually, I think Star Metal sold a gazillion of them, if it was. so again, you look at what they've done, and actually, as a Bond fan, what Stern have done is actually pretty impressive with Bond 60. It is incredibly rare, incredibly rare that you see Bond from, the multiple Bonds from multiple eras, from, with multiple bad guys and multiple gadgets in the same thing. Right? You try and find any other bit of Bond Thing that's got that, you'll struggle You know, fan artwork Yes, for sure, anything official Very rare, very rare Indeed, so, again You know, people, the artwork On the playfield could be better, I guess But the outside of it You know, I'm like, yeah This is awesome, the game Look, who doesn't want to own a Keith Elwin Single level game, I mean You know, that was the second Thing, you know, right behind me You can see I've got all of Elwin's games They're all brilliant games Actually you mentioned in disc How accessible is this Keith came up to me and said hey Neil I hear you're buying a Bond And I was like yeah And I was like you're going to love it And I was like yeah super excited Because Keith wouldn't say that If it wasn't And frankly we know that His pedigree in building games So I'm really excited Actually I thought it would be more expensive than it was Candidly And I kind of You know Loudmouth. Yeah, 20 grand, I'm in. 25, I'm out.
    71:36
    Because I genuinely believed it would be 25. In my head, that's what I thought it would be. And look, it's crazy money. Is the value of what you're getting worth the pennies that you're paying? Absolutely not. Yeah.
    71:53
    But as a Bond fan, as a pinball fan, it's not that rare either. But I'm also a big Stern Classics fan I've got a lot of the Stern Classics And it's kind of a similar sort of set up So I'm super excited about it It will be in the bank at UK Open Nice So I'm going to make sure that anyone who wants to Play it can play it We're doing a Bond special event here For our members at Pinball Republic Where we're going to bring all the Bond games together For a mini tournament I'll take mine to the club But as a Bond fan And a pinball fan This is probably my high for the next 20 years Until another team I love Comes along But I think I really believe it's awesome for pinball That we've got to a place where We can Things like this This sort of experimentation is happening I kind of hope Stan and other folks look at it And say how can we do that but do it a bit more volume and a bit more accessible because we need scale in this industry. Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, too, when you were talking about or you were alluding to your utility for the product. I think that's what a lot of people need to understand, that, you know, one size won't fit all for consumers. It's something that somebody sees that they're like, okay, this is too much money. That doesn't equate to the whole industry is like crashing on itself and they've jumped the shark, this and that. Like it's one product in dozens of products that are available. And what cracks me up about this is looking at the reactions to it. And again, everybody's entitled to the reactions. I'm not going to say people are wrong, but what cracks me up is, is the ones that are complaining about the money. It's like, okay, you have five cars and you're one person. It's like, okay, you're obviously shelling out a ton of money because you're into cars. That's fine. You know, or you might have like 30 pinball machines in your collection. Like, okay, you know, you like playing pinball. Or you might be like us that we have, like, an expensive computer or we have a Funko collection or a Lego collection. You know what I mean? Like, everybody has their thing that they do. Everybody has their hobby. And so I think that that's one of the things that kind of gets lost in the shuffle, that when somebody sees something like this, they're like, okay, who wants this? Who wants to get this? Oh, it's too much. It's this and that. You know, the price is what the price is, and the utility is going to be whatever the utility is for the end user. in what somebody sees here. I mean, to me, I very much do believe that this product, based off of how many are going out and based off the reaction, I've told Joel and Tom this, and this is the first time I'll say this publicly, I truly do believe that the value of this will go up in the next five years or so. I think that we will have ourselves a Pirates from Jersey Jack situation because if not many go out there and the game shoots great, and just like Neil said, he hit the nail on the head, and this is completely 100% true based off research that I've looked through all the Bond 60th stuff from other industries. It's rare that you see all of them together in one product. It is rare. I don't think I've seen it even one other time besides pinball. So that's something that's so unique that at the end of the day, with this product, all it takes is for one person to see it and for one person to want it. And that's where you see the value start going up. And I truly do believe that value will go up on it eventually, assuming that it doesn't hit, like, you know, the 500. I don't think that they'll get 500 out, which makes it even more valuable and more rare. And to me, it's like that might get some people, you know, to say, you know what, I need to get in on this. I mean, that's just the way the market works. And, Travis, you had said it before that when people get into pinball, every pinball machine is new to them. And that's something that there are huge bond fanatics. And if all of a sudden, you know, a few years down the road, some bond fanatic decides to get into pinball and then realizes, you know, wait, there's a bond game and there's this and this. And I can get a game that has every bond in it. And, yeah, I totally see what you're saying.
    76:10
    Neil, I do have a question for you. Do you feel like four optic spinners is enough? As a Stern Classics fan, you can never have too many spinners.
    76:23
    I'd have spinners. I love, as you know, one of my first pinball, one of the first games I wanted to buy was Meteor. It's just to hit the spinner all day. So, again, that's why I'm excited about it. And our club, so all my Stern Classics are there. I've got about five or six of them. And it's I think this is just going to fit in as if it was Another Stern classic with A few more bells and whistles and a few modernisation That hopefully will attract More people in their pinball at the end of the day But I mean The one thing that's slightly disappointing about the 60th I think there's only like four of them coming to the UK Oh wow Which is kind of crazy Because I've been at a few Bond events Where you know They're literally like being at a real bond kind of villain place with the kind of people and the money that they've got. I kind of think if you're going to go down that market, you probably need to think about your channel to that market more than through the regular channels. And I suspect the 500 games in this space, there should be fights over them in the bond land. I just know it, right? There isn't, because they don't know it's their really. And I think Stammer's got to find and if Pinball's going to do things like this they've got to find that route to that channel because the current Pinball channel, some folks have got it. You know, the high-end game room guys a lot of them don't. They're just stripping games out. So that'd be my take. I'm glad only four of them in the UK that definitely guarantees it's going to be worth more money. From my point of view. I was about to say, it sounds like it's time for you to corner the market. That's what I'm hearing. You should be buying more than one. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. I'll have to come and live with one of you guys because my wife will change the laws. You're going to collect Bond 60s like Pokemon cards. I just know it. Well, Neil, the only other Bond 60 question I have for you is what's your thought, and this is a little bit of drama, you know, this quality, high-quality pinball drama that's out there. What's your thoughts on the fact that the topper is the topper that's coming with the 60th is the same topper that's going to be on the Gomez one? And you, I know you're a topper guy, and I know you're buying both. Does that bother you? It's exclusive. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's expensive. But, look, I think, I mean, this and other things, you know, look, they cocked up on the piece of paper. There's no doubt about it, right? When you look at it, it does look like it should be exclusive. and they kind of when you make a mistake like that just put your hands up and say sorry we screwed up this is the reality instead they kind of have this wishy washy thing that didn't go down well at all you just apologise for it it's not the end of the world this is pinball but I'll be buying another topper for sure yeah so you'll have so I mean you'll get the official topper you'll get both of them and actually there's a guy who owns a golden eye who wants to get one to stick on his golden eye. Oh. That I know. So there's a bigger mark out there than just, you know, what's starting to sell today. There's the old golden eye that's still around. And actually, not a bad game.
    79:45
    Not the best game, but it's not bad either. Yeah, shout out to Mike Castleman with the pinballers. He personally feels that the jump ramp in golden eye is the best jump ramp on a pinball machine. Like, he thinks it's better than Toy Story. He thinks it's better than No Good Gold. Do you guys? I don't know. I've never played Goldeneye. Do you think that's a fair statement? Mike's Canadian, so we've got to let him slide. It's fine. All right. But the touch base, though, on the toppers, though, this is an important thing to point out. There is a contingency of people out there that will specifically buy a topper just to put on the shelf. And they'll figure out how to light it up, and it's literally just a piece of artwork. I've seen that done. For real? Oh, yeah. I've seen that done in many game rooms. I know people that do that, that they just, I mean, they collect them. It's a collectible for them, and they don't necessarily put it on their pinball machine. It's the same way that you take a Translight and you put it on a shadow box or something like that that's backlit, right, and then you put it up on the wall or a play field on the wall. There's a lot of people out there that will buy a topper specifically just to show off. Yeah, interesting. Actually one other thing I wanted to point out about artwork On Batman 66 They have Commissioner Gordon On the playfield Right trying to get Commissioner Gordon on a Batman Thing is almost impossible Why Stern made it happen he's on there He's the target that you hit For the X So a lot of people give Stern about you don't get this for the license You do that for the license but actually in many cases They've gone above and Beyond and got things that actually no one else Has got so all the bonds together Commissioner Gordon I'm sure there's other things That we don't know about Why Commissioner Gordon why is that a problem I think it's something to do with Who owns that IP it's owned By a trust or something like that I don't know I was told And looking into it I've got Batman 66 I'm a Batman nut As well but Seeing that on the play field was like wow They've got Gordon on it how did they get that So at least that's why I was told it might be hogwash. But when you look for Commissioner Gordon stuff of that era, it's hard to find it. So I think there's something in it. Well, the same thing kind of happened for Avengers, too, because Adam Warlock is on the play field, and he's nowhere else. And when that came out, most people had no idea who Adam Warlock was, but he played his character, played a central part in the Infinity Saga, at least in the comics. And now you have Adam Warlock is going to show up in the movies now, in the next Guardians of the Galaxy. So it's going to be a well-known character. Well, it's going to be a well-known character, Joel. I'm telling you. If you only knew what's coming down the pipe, Joel. I'm excited for you. I'm excited that your comic book fantasies are becoming reality. I'm excited what that means for pinball, though. Think about this. We should be getting a Doctor Strange pin. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. It's a magic theme. It's a comic book theme. It's perfect. Put it together. Make it happen. But you know, there's plenty of people that are like, I don't want any more. They'll buy it. Just put it out when it sells out. You know, who cares? I would buy a new Spider-Man pin. Exactly. Into the Spider-Verse. That is the low-hanging fruit that would absolutely dominate pinball sales. Everybody puts out these themes and everything. You want a theme that's relevant with a younger generation? You want a theme that's relevant with an older generation? You want a theme that's current? My God. And it has hip-hop music to it, and it has badass artwork to it, and it has plenty to bring out. And there goes my camera. I'm telling you.
    83:33
    You're right, though. Into the Spider, that would be huge. That would be massive. I know I personally, if they ever did a Batman the Animated Series pin, I'd be all over that. But I get it. I know the argument. People are like, I don't want any more dad rock pins. Well we going to continue to get music pins And people are like I don want any more comic book pins I don want any more comic book pins but the truth is it sells There some huge fans There's some huge fans in that.
    84:01
    One of the things I think, if I was starting out looking at anime right now, it's insane. I think if they made a pin in that space, it would go crazy big. Anime, and I know we've said this a long time, but it's like video games, they have not done anything video game related. And if once they were at the end, Mario would be massive. Of course, we know how difficult it is with Nintendo Lightstream, but Mario would be massive. South Park would be even more. That would be massive as well. Not more than Mario. Not more than Mario, but that would be massive. South Park would sell out. I'm telling you, South Park would do great. And then Into the Spider-Verse. Those are the three themes that I think would just absolutely destroy whatever else you put out there. I think it would do better than Top Gun. I think it would do better than even Matrix under most conditions. And I think it would do way better than something like Godfather or something like that. Well, it's not going to do better than Galactic Tank Force, though. I think we all agree Galactic Tank Force is the epitome of pinball things for the next 40 years. I got a feeling that that pin is going to be more popular. We talked about this a couple of months ago. I can't wait. I'm getting serious. I can't wait. Well, there was even a poll out. I mean, all Internet polls are wrong, of course. But there was a poll out. I think that took like second or third for people that were most excited compared to any other. Like, nobody's going to be excited about Indiana Jones. I'm sorry. That's done. It's whatever. Jaws is okay. You know, Venom, if that's coming up, people will be fine. Foo Fighters, whatever it is. But Galactic Tank Force. I know. I'm telling you. And the lunchbox that I'm going to be able to get with it? I can't wait. I mean, we still need to know. Are we the tank force? Are we the commander? Like, who are we fighting? I don't know. I do want to stick with the accessories. Do the tanks fly, Joel? We need to know this. Tanks in space, buddy. Tanks in space. My God. I want to keep talking about accessories. So, first off, Neil, I know you bought the Mando topper. Yes. What are your thoughts on it? Because Tom over there, he keeps his games in competitive play, so it just shows scores. So he doesn't even get to see all the fun things. Ah, okay. I didn't know that was the case. So mine probably just shows scores as well then.
    86:28
    So, again, I think it's great. I forgot there was a topper on mine. Yeah, I mean, in terms of value, you know, you have to question it. But, look, again, it's going to put a bit of effort into building something and it wasn't just a flat thing with lights pointing at it. You know, I hope they keep doing that.
    86:48
    Again, I kind of, I wonder if the reason they're priced so high is because Stern can't make enough and they know that, so they've got to extract the maximum. Hopefully when they move to this new factory, you know, they've got bandwidth to make more and more and we can go back to, you know, one of the best toppers of all time, 400 bucks, Black Knight, Right? Let's get back To that world But again it's starting to be able to make them In volume and I hope This move to the next factory Allows them to do that but I think You know Topper's added a little bit to the Game And you know there's some I'm not a big Mod fan unless it really makes A difference but I did swap out my Godzilla For atomic Godzilla I don't know if it's a focus Actually Atomic Godzilla made by a guy Here in the UK, it's a great mod for Godzilla Lights up and actually looks like Godzilla Rather than Godzuki But I think You know My sense is that Stan would love to sell them At a lower price if they could make the volume To make it worth making them And Mandalorian You know Again another kind of Mando crazy And I kind of feel that finally we've got with Mandalorian the Star Wars that we should have always had you know the Star Wars game is okay but it doesn't feel like you're in a Star Wars episode whereas Mandalorian it kind of does, the music's awesome and I really like it so yeah the Manda Topper's great I mean I pretty much like all the Toppers there's not one that I think is terrible but I just hope they're imaginative and do imaginative things with them I totally agree, and that's what scares me about the Godzilla topper. It hasn't been announced. We don't know what it's going to be, but to me, I hope they go big. I mean, everything about this game is incredible, and I don't want the topper to be lame. I hope the topper moves or exciting or something, but the other thing that scares me is so many people own Godzilla, and so many people are like, this game's a keeper, it's bolted. People are, including myself, are modding it, putting the bells and whistles on it. So if all of a sudden this Godzilla topper comes out and they're sold out everywhere and they can't make enough for them, I don't know. We'll just have to cross that bridge when we get there. But I know, I mean, all four of us own Godzilla, and probably all four of us have full intentions of buying the topper. I mean, it's, I don't know, we'll see.
    89:21
    Let's talk about everybody's favorite mod, especially Tom. I know Tom loves this mod, which is Stern Insider Connect. Oh, yeah. It sounds like, yeah.
    89:32
    Stern Insider Connect. And, Neil, I'm excited to talk to you about this for two reasons. But, number one, Star Insider Connect, recently, they just did a big update, which was really cool, actually. I thought this was genuinely cool. If you go on your Insider Connect account, you will see that at the top, they do a year-end review. So you can see everything that you did last year. You can see, like, what games you played the most, what days of the week you played the most, how many games. Well, they had to update the server to then, like, allow that. That was when the server went down earlier this week. I need to prepare the listeners. You're about to see Salty Tom invoked, and I cannot wait. Yes, buckle up. All right, go ahead, Joel. Yeah, buckle up, everybody. What's your mom do out? Biggest waste of money in the industry. Hey, we're a home buy. We're a home buy. Yes. What I will say is I actually thought that was really cool. I thought it was cool to see, like, when do you score the most points and compare it each ball. So you're starting to realize how much Stern is actually, like, how much data they're capturing from these games when you log in with Stern Insider Connected. I will say personally I enjoy the achievements. I think they're cool. But the biggest thing that I love about it is just the fact that, like, when my brother comes over, we made my dad a Stern Insider account so that when he plays, I mean, home team is huge, being able to hold the button in, immediately log in, you don't have to type in your name, all that. I love it. I love it so much that I'm currently borrowing a Jurassic Park that doesn't have Stern Insider Connected on it. And so I realized, like, I need this. I need Stern Insider Connected. I wasn't going to buy it, though. So, spoiler alert, what you can do is just buy the Wi-Fi dongle and a card, plug them in, run a long Ethernet cable from the game you want it to have to one of the QR code readers on one of your other games, and log in one time. That's all you have to do to get it on the network. Colonel Nerf that. Thanks, Joel. This is not new. I do not. I do not endorse what was just said for the record. I love my job. Yeah, as a distributor. Yeah, you're not encouraging it. I'm just saying what I did at the risk of me breaking my friend's game, which I'm borrowing. But I was able to get it just because I want home team. So I personally am a fan of Stern Insider Connected. I think Travis, as a distributor, is a fan of Insider Connected. I'm not going to put words in your mouth. I mean, it depends. I think I want to see more stuff fleshed out for the home user. That's what I really want to see. Thank you, Travis. Well, they have indicated that this is something that they're looking at. They plan. I just hope it shows up soon because obviously plans aren't doing anything at this point. But I do know from the way locations talk that they love it for the way that the interface is, the feedback they get from it. Yeah, the leaderboards are huge. And that's the main thing I want to see more than anything. Like I've discovered out of me playing this, the achievements are fine. And unfortunately, it's like if you log in for the first time, the achievements just rain down like Oprah's giving away cars. They just all pop up like crazy. So what I really want to see out of it, what I'm most interested in is a home leaderboard. I want to be able to put up a TV screen, see all the high scores, have my kids see their scores. They'd be able to try to beat each other and just keep going back and forth because there is a certain element to that that gives you more replay chances. It makes you want to do it. It's coming.
    92:58
    That's the biggest thing. I do like the end of the year review, though, that tells you what you tend to score the most. Like, which ball you tend to score. I do like that. I mean, everything else, the average XP, it doesn't matter. I do like, though, my top titles. I played Godzilla 69 times, so nice. I'm extremely happy about that. But yeah, I mean, it has interesting data. I just, what I really hope it goes towards, I hope Just from the tournament perspective that they're able to fully implement it to where, like, as a tournament director, I'm sure Neil would love this. I'm sure Tom would love this. Yeah. Where we could say, hey, we're having a Herb event. You guys get on there. Play as many games as you can. It's going to go on the leaderboard. Like, I hope it does something like that. Something that kind of like score bit technically can already do. Probably. That's a great transition. That's a great transition because before we let Tom go off, Neil, you, before it started Insider Connected, There is. There still is a product called ScoreBit. I have a ScoreBit in my TNA. It was a way to – ScoreBit is somewhat of a universal board that was made for all pinball machines to connect them to the Internet. And I know, Neil, you went in big. I think you've got a ScoreBit game for every single one – or a ScoreBit board for every single one of your games. And some of the tools that you can use to – there's a whole, what is it, API out there where you can pull data in real time. So you, from a tournament standpoint, you had set up leaderboards so you could see the scores on all your games. I mean, talk about that. What do you like or did you like about Scorebit and then comparing that to Insider Connected? Yeah, I mean, look, I think, you know, Insider Connected and Scorebit, they do similar things, but they're kind of aimed at different people. I think Stern really tried to aim this at the more casual player in bars, hence why that's where the focus is. And I think it achieves something for that community. I think for the hardcore player, I think Insider's got much more work to do, a lot more work to do. For me, you know, I run, as you said, I run tournaments, I do streaming, I do events and stuff.
    95:05
    I run three events in this room every year, and they're all match play. At the end of the game, I press a button on match play, it grabs all the scores for the games, ranks everybody, and I move on to the next level. I know that there's no cheating. I know that there's no mistakes Yeah this is scorebet I know there's no mistakes, I know that there's no cheating I know that everything's 100% And honestly it makes The running of tournaments a complete breeze I even know what games aren't finished So you know if you're Commentating Colin was over here last year He was like well this is insane I can see actually this game's still playing We can talk about it even though there's no camera on it So and actually Carl Indisc integrated scorebet into all the DTM stuff, which was fantastic to see. You could see what ball people were on.
    95:56
    We're talking about how do we explain things. Just adding instrumentation is helpful. I'm a network guy. That's what I do for a living. So the minute a pinball machine was able to be connected to the network, I'm in.
    96:08
    Actually, Jay Adelson, who runs Scorby, the guy who runs it, he's a really big internet kind of guy. He's data centers. He's done a load of stuff. And he's a great friend of mine So yeah I put them in all the games They're in most of the games of the club Where Scorbet support it We have a monthly competition on it As high scores And the great thing about it Is it isn't just Spike 2 games So I've got it in my X-Men I've got it in my Walking Dead I've got it in my Batman I've got it in my Bond I've got it in my Theatre of Magic I've got it in my Star Wars Classics And for me Having a platform that unites Every pinball manufacturer To do scores and analytics I have to believe that there's Value in that, certainly from a Tournament point of view there absolutely is And You know, during COVID They added challenges so you could challenge everyone Sure it's not the same game and the tilts Might be different but you can Have a bit of fun with it and the app That they've got on Scorebit is great Starting on the side of Kinect, I think in terms of Getting the games online And you know Finding out how to Allocate people a user ID Etc, I think that I'll be honest, I think the scanning thing is a bit clunky And I think there's a simpler way of doing that And you know the fact that You just said what you've done With the home thing You just plug it in, activate it and have home team Actually why do you need a If you just connect it to the network and you log in or something on your phone and give the game ID, why can't it then just automatically populate you without having to buy anything? Because when you talk to Stern, they're not in it to sell the hardware. They're in it to get people connected. So, hey, Stern, what more can you do to make that connection much quicker? Please, Stern, for the love of God, integrate with Corbett. For the love of God, right? George, I will buy you the best steak in any part of the planet just so we can integrate with Scorbun, man for God's sake I'll write the code for free right? I wonder if there's a problem with that because JJP has it in all their games so I mean you see what they've done with JJP it's awesome, I've got it on Dalvin's only JJP game I've got, they've added achievements they've added other stuff But they're also doing other manufacturers You've got Spooky with TNA And Rick and Morty You know they've got Stern imagine I don't know There's obviously business relationships And commercial situations but Stern you know Scorbic could help you Bring your SAM2 games So your SAM games Into Insider Connected There's a deal to be done there I'm sure of it So figure that out And, you know, as an Internet guy, that's, you know, what I've done for most of my career. The way the Internet works is because everybody was able to share stuff like that. And if you want to be online, you've got to think like that. And, you know, I love what they've done so far. And also, you know, what I think Stern are finding out, again, this is my own view, is actually doing these online things harder than you might think.
    99:30
    It's not just, hey, we'll put a few scores on a screen. you've got to secure it, you've got to do analytics like this, you've got to continually add value to it, otherwise it becomes that fad that people gave up on a year ago, and I think that's where we'll see how that pans out, but honestly, Scorbit is fantastic Scorbit.io, go have a look at it it's made my life a lot easier, I've got these big screens on my in my game room here, when people come round they log in and we have little competitions it's great fun, you can put it on your stream you can make it when you hit a certain score all the lights flash, there's all sorts of bizarre stuff you can do with it but getting games online into the modern world, hallelujah we've got to do that we've got to do more of it That's well put I know you are using Scorebit to its full potential and that's something that I know when I put one in TNA or even when it came out, that was kind of the big question They're like, well, why do you need it? Besides being able to see the score from your friends, what's the point? I mean, actually, TNA is a great example where Scott did a lot of work on it. When you're watching TNA, so if someone was playing TNA, I'd watch on my phone what mode they're in, what ball they're in, how many balls have they locked. And again, when we were commentating, we were able to pull down. I was able to give updates on other games by using the Scorebit app. you know it's like when you build these things you build them in a way where you maybe have so many ideas in your head but let me tell you there's a whole community out there that have got even more ideas than you can dream of give them access to it let them build it ok they might break a few things every now and again but they might come up with 4 or 5 things that are amazing that really make a difference both to the platform and to pinball, make it that accessible, give people the API, let people code and learn and do cool stuff. And who knows where it goes? I just feel that there's much more to do.
    101:42
    And being open and being able to integrate and being able to work together and share stuff, I think will make it easier for Stern to grow inside of Connected. and I think it would be easier for it to become not a fad and that's what worries me about both of these things right now. Yeah, good point and Tom, before you share your bit, let me just go ahead and hit this
    102:22
    Tom, Insider Connected Thoughts? I don't know if I want to talk about something that's so terrible. You have it. You have it in multiple games. You bought multiple games. I have it in all my games that I can possibly have it in. Uh-huh. What a waste of money.
    102:48
    Once again, Stern, I would like to let you guys know I do not endorse the views of Joel. No, I don't work for the pit bull company, so I can say these things. So, you know, honestly, I mean, the achievements are cool. I've said this before. The achievements are cool, but in the home environment it sucks because there's no verification.
    103:08
    So why do you have it? The only thing you have is the home team where you can, like, hold the button. I mean, that's the only feature for a home user. um you don't have leader boards which you know i i love it i love going to shows and playing it although um i have had one operator come to me and say you know i'm sick of you damn tournament guys coming over here and getting all the the high scores and i was like oh okay i didn't realize that was an issue. But anyways, yeah, I just think there's just so much more that can be done. Maybe there's stuff on the way, but it just doesn't seem like it. Yeah, I will be interested if in a year from now or whatever it is where I know home leaderboards is a big thing for you and you've talked about doing like heads up or some sort of being able to play other people. I can't wait. If Stern Insider gets to that point where all of a sudden you're like, guys, I was wrong. Stern Insider Connected is incredible. Well, I just hope this isn't like certain other things Stern does where, you know, it just gets abandoned. Okay. You know, like certain games that are coded, WWE, Monsters. you know it seems like you know if things don't go well with sales they they get pushed to the side and that's what i'm afraid that's gonna happen to insider connect well it sounds like you've done your part in helping with sales by going ahead and buying a kit for every one of your games so what more besides besides speaking highly of since that are connected you've done everything you can that's what it sounds like i i would love to speak highly of it but i can't at this point that's a great way to end that.
    105:14
    For the record, salty Tom is my second favorite Tom. I've moved him up to number two. I think, what was it? It was like Mountain Dew Tom, or he had some hot chocolate with some whipped cream Tom. Oh, Mountain Dew Tom's number one, for sure. Do you have a favorite Tom Neal that we're unaware of? I'm just kind of laughing, Tom, when we're at an event and we're both trying to score something and neither of us kind of were just laughing at each other. We're laughing at how bad we suck at pinball and why we're at this tournament.
    105:51
    Well, I think looking at our list here, I think we covered everything. Is there anything else, Neal, is there anything else you want to share or talk about? Just one thing, UK open, registration open July the 1st, playpinball.uk. Come. It's going to be an epic event, and we'll look after you and love you and give you lots of very bad British junk food. Oh, yeah. Well, there'll be fish and chips. And gin. Lots of gin.
    106:18
    Lots of gin. Okay. Well, we'll plug it up then. Travis, go for it. Yeah, you guys can find me right here on the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. and I do have some other projects that are coming up, but I don't want to announce it just yet. So a little teaser right there, but yeah, that's all I got. Thank you for your, you fine gentlemen today joining me this morning, especially Neil and especially Tom. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, Travis. I see what you did there. Oh, Joel, you're here too. Yeah. Do you have anything else to plug?
    106:52
    Neil? Do you want Neil to plug? No, just to say thanks for, And also Pinball Republic In London, if you're in London Come visit us We've got 60 great games And we'd love Anyone who comes over, we'll get them to look after you So it's a co-op we run But also thanks for having me on the show It's been a blast, thank you And you have a YouTube channel Yeah, I mean, look, I've got a YouTube channel I'm on Twitch, but it's kind of just me Like old man yelling at Cloud It's perfect If you want to watch, feel free If you don't, feel free also It's Domino Arcade, right? It's the YouTube? Google for Domino Arcade or Domino Pinball and you'll find it I'm kind of just a guy who does it in his spare time as opposed to a pro like you guys I have zero credentials for doing any of what I do but people do it Thank you Neil, thank you very much for being on here And, yeah, it's cool to hear your perspective from overseas and some of the stuff that you're experiencing. And I'm excited for you for both bonds. Hopefully you get yours fixed. I'm excited for you to have two of the same toppers and loving every second of it. It's, I don't know, truly I'm very happy for you. I think it's awesome. And fantastic use of the extra ball shirt, by the way. Yeah, I did.
    108:15
    That's awesome. Tom, plug it up, man. Yeah, when I'm not bashing on Insider Connect, I'm streaming at Fox Cities Pinball on Twitch and then VODs on YouTube. We actually got a lot of stuff coming up. We got the Winners 3X at District 82, which is a Stern Pro Circuit event.
    108:37
    That's February 17th to the 19th. There'll also be a three strike on that Thursday night. And then in March, we've got a couple things going on. We've got the Nationals, or North American Pinball Championships. That's going to be on Thursday, March 9th. And then after that, we have Pinmasters, which you can still sign up for. And they just announced on the IFPA that you can win a new inbox turn. Oh, nice. So get signing up. And that's March 10th through the 12th. Then in April is the Great Lakes Pinball Open, which sign-ups are February 11th. And that's limited to 150 people.
    109:28
    So people always ask me, how do I sign up? Like, be ready at your computer as soon as registration starts. F5. Awesome. Joel, are you going to plug the pinball awards? Even though that's technically Travis plugged, then Neil plugged, then Tom and now it's my turn You confused all of us. You had Neil plug, then you went to me and then you boomeranged and you went back to Neil so I thought you were going to boomerang back to me I was ready to plug more stuff We are recording this on a Friday This episode is not going to happen today But so go watch them. They're going to be on YouTube. Go check out the pinball network. That's where the video will be after the fact. We're excited. Yes, Rush, I know. I have already seen the votes. Tom, I think you're going to be happy is what I'm going to say. But, yes, go watch it. That was as unless Zach's flipping out factory or the facility burns down or something. Everything should be filmed tomorrow, too, and we're going to live stream it. And then so anybody that hears this later, go watch it on YouTube.
    110:41
    Yeah, we got a group of judges. There was like 50-something people that were vetted judges, media creators and whatnot. And then we also had a 10% public vote. We had like over 150 people vote in the public vote as well. So really cool group of people that voted on that. And, yeah. I really wish I could go there. And I'm sorry I can't make it, but I will be watching from home. Yes. I think it's going to be fantastic. And then, yeah, I stream on every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight Eastern Standard Time on the Flippin' Out channel on YouTube. Just started streaming only on YouTube, and I'm actually really impressed with YouTube streaming and how well that's going. So really enjoying that. But I think that's it. I think we'll wrap it up. Travis, thanks for being here. I really appreciate the little bit of effort you put forth in your background. It's getting better slowly but surely. Tom, you're always a gem. Thanks for being a part of this. And, Neil, really, really do appreciate you hopping on this. Thank you. Like always, Tom, you get the last words.
    111:43
    Stay safe, everybody.