Is it really so hard to believe? I just gotta do what I gotta do. I believe in slime and stink. What is real? How do you define real? I believe in cruelty. A lot of people live with hurt. And a lot of people don't have a choice, I do. I believe in injustice. And for that, you're willing to lose everything? It just ain't everything. Mr. Miyagi, it's over. It's over. Forget about it. No. I'm afraid. Let's just get out of here. I want to go home. You're not, you're not, you're not. Must not. This house, the cars, and all the stuff we got, it ain't everything. It's okay to lose your border. You must not lose your fear. Whatever he is, he destroys. you're everyone's problem that's because every time you go up in the air you're unsafe i don't like you because you're dangerous i am dangerous and this is how you best currently stay inside i can't change anything if all we can do is just go with what we are if i can change and you can change Everybody to change! It's showtime. You son of a bitch! We go to the jungle, we got fun and games. We got everything you want, we know what it is. Sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit up. Alright, welcome everybody to episode 47 of Canoe Wap. We are pinball. Oh, what? Not in this lifetime did they said this would happen. We've got Donald Garrison and Cengiz. I don't even think I know your last name, Cengiz, after all these years. What is it? You don't even know my middle name, do you? I don't think so. It's Dennis. Dennis. I'm going to start calling you Denny. That sounds like the most un-Danish thing ever. Danish Dennis. That's a bit more normal Danish name. Welcome to WAP, everybody. This is show number 47. We got Canada in the house. If you don't know Canada already, Canada lives in a million-dollar house. He has got a beautiful wife, beautiful kids. He has so many subscribers. What a millionaire every year. Biggest support in the media, pinball content media. He's a part of WAP show now. Welcome to the show, Chris. How are you doing, buddy? And a big mortgage to go with that. I'm doing great. I've really, really been looking forward to this, I have to say. It's been long overdue. You guys are great. I love the content. And I know this took a while to get here, all probably my fault, but it's good to just chat pinball. I mean, this is what we love about this hobby, just everybody's got a fun opinion about these games. I don't even know what's happening right now. If I had 1% of influence putting you two together, I'm just so happy. So everybody's perfect now. Everybody's happy. Let's chat pinball. Donnie, how are you doing, my dear friend? It is early. I have no idea what's happening. Hi, everybody. Welcome to WAP. This is going to be a landmark episode, I can already tell. Well, we shared the teaser like 10 hours ago, and this morning people are like, that Queen song, We Will Rock You song, they're like, we want WAP, we want Canadian WAP. Come on, do it. I mean, we all need Cengiz. Because it's 7 a.m. for Don, it's 8 for me. The kids just got out, and it's like happy hour in Denmark. So, yeah, we're going to feed off your energy, brother. Let's bring it. We do that. Okay. Usually, when we have a guest over, we always start the show by saying, who's your daddy and what does he do? So we learn about Canada. If anyone doesn't know about Canada, let's just ask him simple questions. When did you start playing pinball machines? I have never. No, it was 12 years ago. I think a lot of people, I got into arcade machines, and I quickly realized how boring owning a Donkey Kong is and a Ms. Pac-Man and a Tron. And then I had a Lord of the Rings, and it was amazing. I was hooked. I didn't know what Flipper Fade was. I didn't know what Broken Plastics were. I didn't know what Shooter Lane Wear was. It had all of that, and I just loved it. You enjoyed it like that, right? It was just so enjoyable. If you didn't have to think about all that stuff. And Lord of the Rings is an amazing game to start with. I think that might have made me a little cynical looking at a lot of other games because of how good that machine is. Why did you pick that as the first game? Well, I asked Pinside what should I get as a first game for pinball, and that's what people recommended. And it was a great first game. Long ball times, great theme integration. Oh, great theme. A little clunky. But you don't even know what clunky is when you're starting out, right? You're just happy to have a pinball game in your house. Yeah. So fast forward, then you started your pinball podcast show. For how long time? How many episodes? 1,150 now, something like that. Did you have that at Expo? Did you have this thing around your neck saying, Big Pinball Podcaster with 1,100 shows? No. Did you guys get media credentialed at Expo? I did not. I got charged for a booth I don't think any of the OGs people have been doing this for a long time, nobody I heard you had an interview robbed to get media credentialed yeah, did you guys interview him? I did, yeah, but I didn't even get that and he still didn't give it to you maybe next year when we hit 2,000 shows yeah so yeah, Expo is just open now everybody knows about Kaneda go and check his stuff out He loves pinball. He plays all pinball. Kaneda always says, buy before try. Beautiful stuff. Kaneda looks confused right now. Wait and see. Wait and see. Wait and see. Yeah. Okay. So, at Expo, you two, you were there. I wasn't. I, first of all, wants to hear the aura behind the different companies. Not their games, but just the aura. the fat dick energy. How was it out there? I want to learn about that. Let's start with JJP. Their stand, their games, how was it? I mean, they were there. They had every one of their games there. I didn't really sense much of a buzz coming over there. I mean, obviously, people were having fun on Harry Potter. For a lot of people, it was kind of their first time seeing it, or at least all three different versions. But, I mean, at this point, they're just the Harry Potter pinball company. I don't think they have any complaints. Okay. Yeah, they just had a lot of games. There wasn't a line, right? I mean, Potter's been out for a while. This is the cycle of hype. I mean, everyone's probably played a Potter by now, and I think also because the CEs are just unlimited, right? They're everywhere, right? I heard they got 3,000 CE orders. Wow. But it's still a beautiful game. When I walked over to it, there wasn't a lot of energy per se, but I think just they wanted to just show up with a lot of games because if you're them, everyone's a future buyer or potential buyer of Harry Potter. So you want as many people on that game as possible. But, yeah, there wasn't any lines. There wasn't any, like, buzz. All the buzz was happening nearby. So usually at these shows, they used to have Ken Cromwell hyping up the J.J.P. games. So who was there this time? I mean, who? I don't know. Did you see? Good question. Yeah, I didn't see anybody, like, shepherding the herds over there or anything. I mean, we saw Elton John launch at Expo that year that Labyrinth came out. And it was like, you know, that was the big game of the show, like big lines there. Jack was walking around in his sequined Dodger outfit. Like, I didn't see him at all this time. I think he was there, but just – He was there. You know what's funny is there's a moment where Brett's there. No one really knows him, and it's like everyone's snapping photos with Jack. You know, there's Brett, could buy the entire hotel, and there's absolutely no one's asking for photos or autographs. But, yeah, no one was, like, dressed up in Potter gear and in wizard mode. So it was, you know, I think it was just kind of like let the games do the talking kind of vibe at J.J.P. Okay. All right, all right. Let's jump over to Big Daddy Stern. How was the vibe around Stern, man? They just released a new game. Now, you're saying J.J.P. game is not new, but new now. New Star Wars. How was the hype? how long was the lines not people were going over getting their badges i mean everybody was playing their games you know they had the same red carpet they had the same merch booth um you know they had a stage i don't know that they were really i didn't catch them using it uh but you know maybe i was just busy running around but i don't know it was stern without anything really brand new i didn't even see the new kong topper which i was expecting to see there like because that wasn't there yeah and it was interesting i mean stern obviously shows up with so many games and I think sometimes they get a little wrongfully indicted for not having any popularity around their booth I mean if you show up with 30 Star Wars games and there's four Winchesters is going to be a line to get on the Winchester so um you know Stern always had people there they it just felt like they were trying a little hard you know they had they were like interviewing themselves on the Jack Danger red couch or the couch area and you couldn't really hear it though you know because it's loud and i don't think they and they had like an old guy djing for like the rest of the night and it just felt like they were trying to be cool and it was it's fine i mean it's stern i mean that that that over all the game sounds yeah yeah there was a they had a big gorilla did you see that i saw the gorilla yeah the gorilla was funny and they had a darth vader holding a pumpkin that was a death star so they're they're they're having some fun. I just think that, you know, more of the conversation was around Star Wars and what people's feelings on it were. Were people loving Star Wars? You know, How about the lines? Did they have long lines? No, there were so many machines. They had like 50 machines there, but you know, I don't know that Star Wars was the game for the pinball enthusiast, though. This is probably a game that's not going to make it into a ton of homes, but it's probably going to earn well in location because everybody will just go there and play it. So this is just like, I think they come in cycles, and maybe their plan was let's just throw a game together, put it out there that will earn, and this will just be like the operator release, and then we'll throw something to the fans later. Yeah, I heard from Cale that when he got back from Expo, he has a Star Wars on location, and a woman was trying to play it, and the coins were not accepted into the machine because it was so full. And I was like, just take the coin box out. Let it just fill the cabinet. I mean, it's an operator's dream. Nothing's going to break. It's Star Wars. It's inviting. It's not as bad as everybody is kind of reacting to it, but it's also not great. And I think everyone is just wanting a great Star Wars game after all these years. It's a dream theme of mine. Don, do you still have your Star Wars? Yeah, this big vacant hole over here is where it was. I rented it out for a month, so it'll be coming back. I still have my 2017, though, and I think I still like that one better. I agree. I feel like the Ritchie game everyone thought would just get replaced, I kind of feel like people are just going to hold on to it. Yeah, I don't know if I'm just a sentimental sap, but, yeah, I mean, it's the premium. Every time I do get my Death Star, it's awesome. Every time I race around the Raptor track, it's awesome. And, you know, like, I understand the gameplay nuance to it that's there. You know, it's not just here's seven shots and a fan, you know, play like Venom or whatever. So I don't know. It's got a charm for me. And it's only $7,500 on the second market with a topper. So it's not like I'm sitting on a gold mine by holding it. Do you guys know if the Star Wars LE has sold out? We don't have none here in Europe. I don't think so. I think if we were to look at distros, I think they're still for sale. I mean, people on our Facebook group on We Are Pinball, we are like over 600 people, and they're writing there officially on the wall that some distros are hitting them up and want to try to sell the game well under MSRP. I don't want to say the numbers here, but yeah. You told me 11,000 or 10,500. Yeah, 11 is what I'm hearing. It's chasing Kong all the way down, man. I saw Kong's going for sub 10. What the hell? What the hell? Now, so my big disappointment, though, with it was this is an LE for Star Wars, and, like, they took a step back from, like, cool designed armor. They took a step back from foil decal accents. And it's like those are the things I want. I get that it comes with the lights and everything, but, like, that's where, like, my level of disappointment with it. You know, this should have been, like, an event. Like, oh, you got the LE. There's only 770. That's sweet. And then, like, that's what we're missing out on. I don't feel special if I have one Before launch Chris was like Star Wars is going to sell out It's Star Wars And I said to Chris man they don't sell to Europe This time so I don't think they will sell out But Chris didn't see the game Of course he was just talking about the theme Right I think what's the most telling is How Where's John Borg doesn't even feel like he's Excited about his own game I know this game was rushed everybody who's like talk to people in the industry the poor guy has been working on three games in one year people forget that like metallic remastered launched a year ago he was working hard on that yeah and then he's got star wars which i think he did in i heard like eight months to make the game and then he's also working on the walking dead remastered which is supposedly dropping but any day now we might get a trailer today i heard it's before halloween so that's got to be like this week next, right? The conspiracy minded in me is saying that they're holding back on Walking Dead and putting Tron out instead or something just to save some face. I've completely made that up, but can you imagine? It would be devastating right now. On top of that, he also worked on Indiana Jones that got cancelled. Remember that? Was the Death Star really the rolling ball from Indiana Jones and this was just like a theme swap late in the game? I carried around a plastic from the apron in my bag the whole expo waiting to run into borg i even went to the autograph signing he still wasn't there like like where's where was the guy yeah cool okay all right so that's turn i want to hear about the vibe around barrels of fun because they also released a brand new game the house game winchester house game were there did you play the game how was the vibe around their booth did you guys know about it beforehand i had no idea god nobody yeah you know no no come on i always leak early that i did no clue yeah no clue i was just as shocked as everybody else but you were under nda with battles how can you know about it david told me two future titles then the next day he's like we lost one of them i'm like okay are you just like making this stuff up yeah yeah i no but i like not being under nda and just finding out like everybody else but yeah don What did you think of their booth? Yeah, so I woke up that morning of the announcement. People are texting me like, who the hell is this old lady with the house? I'm like, what is all this? And then I saw it. No, it was cool. They had it set up there. I wish they would have had ten games, and I wish they would have had some games in boxes ready to go like they did with Labyrinth. But there was like four games, I think, total, maybe five. Flip N Out Pinball had one at their booth. Their booth was cool. The line was wrapping around the whole booth the whole time of the show there. I got on Dune. I played my Winchester. I liked its moments that it had. I did everything I wanted to do. I got the seance multiball. I got my ball stuck in the spider web, pepper ghost thing. I hit all the ramps. So I walked away feeling like, okay, this is pretty good. I played it first thing in the morning, though, so it was one of the first games that was put on that game that day. So my flippers were strong and everything. So I came away with a quite positive experience, and I spent the rest of Expo just kind of hovering around and watching people playing. I would just jump the barricade, go in the barrels booth so I could get close and watch. but like yeah I love their Evergloss cabinet decals all shiny I love that so yeah and then the whole time David Van Es is just like hanging around posted right out front Carl's over there hanging out so I got to like you could just walk up to these guys and talk to them about the game try to goad them into making some more so I think they were having a very good expo that may be better than they were expecting nice same thing like I walked over David saw me from across like the alley and just waved me in it just felt like walking into a mom and pop restaurant and I just get this sense with like a lot of the boutiques it just feels like you're walking in to the family-run business right and they're very personable and you know I couldn't cut the lines I had to come in the next day to play it so the first day the line was just an hour or more wait to get on it um but yeah their games are so shiny and beautiful. They really are. I mean, David really knows how to make a pretty machine, and Winchester, it plays nice. It's a little hard, you know? It's a Carl game. I kept saying that. It's not a Stern. You've got to find those shots, and the Flipper feels a little bit different than Stern, and it was just incredible, though, because by the time we even got to the show, they were sold out, and that's just an energy. He sold more in two days than he sold of Dune in almost six months, so that's if I were to tell you guys like six months ago, Winchester's Mystery House is going to outsell Dune with all the assets in two days. Yeah. Who knew? Yeah. Do you think it's because it's limited to $5.25? Because the price is the same? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it can't sell out if it's not limited. It's a lot of variables, all right? I think Star Wars being mediocre, this game being very limited, and, you know, we've seen this hobby, right? Everyone's starving for some FOMO fun, and it's fun to be chasing that game that you feel is about to sell out. But Predator is also pretty limited. Yeah, what the heck? Now we're talking 525, right? Yeah, Predator's going to be more limited numbers, like probably 200 or so. It's actually a wide-body game. The shots feel a lot more fun, a lot more approachable. I was able to walk up this game my first time and hit, like, every multiball battle Predator to the Gatling gun, like, the whole bit. Like, I had a great game, put my name up on it. And, yeah, this game is going to be, like, under 200. That's a little bit more, you know, if you want the prestige version or whatever. But, like, I was surprised that this wasn't an instant sellout. At the end of the show, they said they still had 40 left. Yeah. And that's, like, 40 for all time for Predator, not Winchester's Mystery Gloss Mansion. It's crazy, right? It's such a more appropriate theme for the audience. But, again, just losing Arnold. Yeah. And launch matters, too, right? I think we had months to prepare for disappointment of an Arnold-less predator, right? And then it comes out, and it kind of reaffirms your fear. Where Winchester, no one even knew it was coming. It's not missing anything you wanted in it. And I think everyone just got excited by this campy, haunted house, real story that's kind of fascinating and interesting. And then, you know, you serve it up, and it's unique. it's different and it's not missing anything you want. It kind of is introducing you to something new and different. I think that's why it sold so well. Congrats to the guys over there at Barrels. Dune would have sank the company if they didn't have this ready to go. Let's be honest. How did they keep this a secret? Everybody knew about Dune. Everybody knew about it before it came out. But this? We got multiple emails. It's Pimpin' Winchester. I'm like, what the heck is that? I don't even want to read it. I saw it like five hours later or something. I'm like, is this a pinball machine? What the hell? I had a guy that told me he knew, and he just didn't think it was real because of what it was. Not in a million years did I think they'd be making Winchester's. So I'm like, he's like, I didn't decide to pass it on. I'm like, all right. Well, I heard they were shopping it to three designers, two of which passed on it. and then Carl took it. And I think the Carl factor, we didn't even talk about. I mean he brings a lot of fans and he a great guy and everyone just wants to see him be successful and it just all good vibes like buying his product Two shows ago we talked about Dune and I said I watched Carl playing Dune with the newest code And from a mediocre to just top-dollar game, man, just changed everything for me. I also said that on our show. But, wow, absolutely great player. The only thing is when you're saying the shot's a bit tight, I mean, is it tight-tight, you know? like that magic game from American Pinball. Yeah, Houdini. That's a bit tight. The shots like that? Not that bad. Yeah, it didn't feel like Houdini to me. I liked it. Even the upper flipper getting around there, you know, sweep and drop targets and things. It seemed like it worked. Now, I don't have 50 games on it, so maybe, you know. Time will tell, but, like, the game I had was fun. How cool is it they just sold out, man? So was that boost the biggest big-dig energy out there, or was it bigger? Yeah, you think so? Yeah, the most, like, just, yeah. I mean, Spooky wasn't there, right? The Predator was on one-player game for three balls, so it was like the line was long to get on the Predator, or just a long wait, even if the line wasn't that long. Did you play Predator, Chris? I didn't get to play it because I – this is a little pet peeve of mine. For content creators, I do think they should open up early so we could go in and play. I got to play Winchester only because I took Melvin's vendor badge and got in early. But as just me, I couldn't get into the show opening. And then you see how it was, Don, when people – and it opens. Yeah. The line is already there. everyone's like hurting into it and it's just good luck you're online right away for an hour wait I think media creators should have early access just come in and film and try all the new games I mean it would be good for everyone yeah I mean I had a booth so I got a vendor badge so that's pretty much how I got in to play things got in to play Predator early got in to play Winchester that was nice but I would like it if they'd have just an extra bonus hour or something before the show opens for everybody else where you could buy some exclusive access or something for $100 and then they limit it to 100 people that can come in to the show floor early. I don't know if there's not really a way to have a fast pass or whatever, but having two-hour lines for people just doesn't seem to be helpful at all. That's when you should put a time limit on the game of five minutes, go play, and then we can keep the line moving because a good player can get on Winchester and be there for a half hour and that totally knocks out the game. That's a dick move. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I don't know. You don't need to necessarily drop every game to two balls like we saw Pinball Brothers do with Queen. Remember that? When, like, they were expecting Queen to be this huge thing and they had to, like, limit it to two balls. Oh, man. Okay. So how was the vibe around Predator, the booth? Was Daniel there talking about the game? Who was at Predator? It was two guys I didn't recognize. Like, a guy that did either coding or programming and then, like, a marketing guy or something. And then the dude from Predator was there. Oh, the actor from Predator. Oh, that was so cool, man. You called me, man, with FaceTime. Whoa, with WAP t-shirts. Dude, I had to. It must have been like 3 in the morning for you. But I'm like, dude, I got this guy a WAP t-shirt. He signed it for you. So I got to send that out to you. That was super cool. It was an awesome moment, man. That was like the best tearjerker moment of Expo for me. Taking Jenkins' stuff over to the guy from Predator. Jenkins, did you buy one? Did you get one? Yeah, but we still haven't got the game. Okay. It's one hour this direction from me, but I still don't have the game. That's the story of, like, launches, right? Like, Winchester's, like, how to do it right, and Predator's how, like, not to do it. And then American Pinball will show you how to, like, hold my beer. Let me show you how to not launch a game. We're a bit – I talked with my bro about this because we bought the game, and we're going to put it in our – I'm not going to have it here. We're just going to put it in our game room. The thing is The orders are going to shut down December When are we going to get the You know game for the showroom Why are we buying this game If we cannot sell any of them It's just They just released the game And they stopped producing the game Do you hear me Why that Disney yanked the license That's what I heard I've heard something else Is that why there's no Star Wars in Europe as well? Like, they're just making it harder to sell regionally some of their IP? That's not the thing I heard. I heard that in January they want to jump over to the next game from Pedretti on the production line. Which is what? Toten? You know what? You said that their next game was Big Bang Bar, right? Yeah. It's one of those two. Okay. It's Toten. You said Big Bang Bar. Yeah, I was wrong, but it's one of the – so Rick, Toten, Theater of Magic, Circus Voltaire, all Pedretti. Didn't like CGC announce another run of Medieval Madness is coming next year? Yeah, they just like subtly dropped that like we're just going to do another 1,000. So they just burned everybody who bought the Merlin? Why not? They sold out so quickly. But I talked with Andretti and I was like, of course, I talk about Chris's saying Big Bang Bad and all that and details. I got a lot of cool details from him. Pedretti. What a great guy. But at the end of our talk on Messenger, he wrote – he stopped writing that the next game is a Bella Williams game. And I saw that like two days later or something. I was like, what the heck? That cannot be Big Bang Bar. Yeah, it's Totem. I was like, oh. Do you guys think it's Do you like all these remakes of I mean When CGC made them they made the games better I'm just nervous that Pedretti's Going to do these and They're not going to be to the Caliber I have no experience with Funhaus The only experience I have is actually Don's review of what's going on in the US Don said like The prices are low on Funhaus Oh yeah Yeah, and, you know, I mean, it plays, like, similar. Like, you can tell it's Funhaus, but it feels like Funhaus built with Pinball Brothers parts, you know? So, like, I guess it's close enough, but it's kind of clunky how you switch between the two, like the 2.0 code and the new code. It would have been fun if it was just a quick toggle on the flippers, but it's like you have to, like, reset the game, basically, have it come up as the other game, reload, and then you can insert coins and play it. So, like, that was clunky. And, like, every CGC remake I've walked up to, You've got to wait three years for them. But they play awesome. And it's yet to be seen how they can build them. So is it the limited availability on the line because they want to throw this other game on there? Was it because Disney yanked the license? Or was it because they've been sitting on this license for three years already and it's running out at the end of the year? I don't know that we'll ever find out. I heard they want to jump over to the next game. Do you know what the next game is, Cengiz? Not really. You do. Are you excited? Yeah. Okay. Don't they need a hit eventually? I mean, that's what I'm always confused with, these boutiques that don't move the numbers they need to. Chris, this is going to be a bit dorky, but just stand-up targets on Funhaus. They're using the stand-up targets from Alien and stuff like that. They don't use the original Billy Williams stand-up targets. So when you go into details and play these games, They don't feel like the real original. I think that's what Donnie means. It feels different. But with the Predator game, they updated. You know, they have the fast board system now, right? And they are using Bella Williams flippers now. So I have something in me that says maybe they will use Bella Williams, drop down targets, stand up targets. Maybe it will be like that with their next game. I hope. The other thing with these remakes is I heard Brian Allen's doing the art, and that's questionable. When you remake a classic, if you want the iconic – and if there's one game that doesn't need a new art package, it's Totem. It's Circus Voltaire. And it's just – you could do it, but should you? And I think the market has spoken that they might not like redoing art on games that were just works of art back in the day. Didn't they do They did two versions with Funhaus One with the original Was it the original one to one art And the other one Which has also got to be more expensive If you get that wrong right From a manufacturing standpoint It's not easy to do that Because you got to order those playfields And if you don't get that many orders You're eating all that cost If it's Toten would you guys buy it Eh The code is just gets old. I had one. It's a beautiful game, but it gets boring compared to modern pens. You can get to the end of it in 20 minutes. One guy did a 2.0 code on that game. Who was that? I remember seeing that at TPF. That was our friend with the bad playfields, Mirko. Oh! That was the guy who pooped out on someone's knee! Remember he walked in and wanted to talk about his totem kit and didn't want to address the GNR playfield issue oh donnie i don't know if you were there but he just came in and baller and i want to sell these parts and this and that and then chris was in there he just took the mic and he's like how dare you trying to sell this when you are destroying all the jj people so he just took his bag and he ran out of there you know what's crazy about mirko he's probably made as an individual all the most money of anybody in this hobby. And then he gets paid again for his mistakes. Because, you know, you've got to buy the new playfields at cost to him. Did you buy the extra Guns N' Roses playfield for $600? It's in the attic. I just figured, why not? I'm never going to swap it. It wasn't populated. It was just a playfield, right? It's crazy that the people that make the most in this hobby or industry are the people that aren't responsible for actually building the games. It's like, you know, it's like a modern day. We're talking about GNR. How about when they launched Harry Potter with that art that should be replaced? The derpy dragon. Yeah, they need to pay him the second time because it's not his fault. So that guy got paid double. That was such a weird story, and they were blindsided by that. They had no idea. Yeah. Were you at that conference with AI at the expo? Was there a conference? Oh, there was a panel discussion about it? Yeah, there was some panel with some people against AI. Were you in there? No. They're against AI? Yeah, I didn't get any of those. There was some discussion on AI and pinball, but yeah, I didn't hear about what was mentioned or anything. That feels too much like going to work. AI would have made a better Star Wars. We all know that. Come on. If you had AI, make me a great Star Wars pinball machine. they're not kicking that out. Some people in the industry are very angry about having some AI artwork on Potter. I mean, wake up. AI is not the future. AI is here. I mean, AI is taking over a lot of jobs. It's going to happen. If you like it or not, it's just going to happen. Blue-collar jobs like electricians and all that, they're going to have so much work to do because most of this generation is I'm sitting in front of a computer. All that is going to be taken over by AI. My job is way more at risk than any pinball artist's job is. Sorry, but you cannot sit there and be angry. I'm like, I hate AI, but it's going to happen, like it or not. Yeah. I think it was like the clumsy rollout of it, though, because obviously they used AI to do a once-over rough draft, and then you're supposed to go fine-tune and finish that. stuff and probably they did but then somehow like an earlier save file got sent over to print and like passed final approval somehow and then showed up that had to be like the worst monday morning meeting like guys we got to discuss this we've got 5 000 playfields ordered that are all wrong yeah and it was small when you actually because everyone was zooming in on that dragon on pin side and when you actually stood in front of the machine it's like this big and it's like in the upper right and yeah and you're looking at all this stuff in the game yeah but yeah i never told some people have the ai mistake game right is that is that now more valuable you think or or what the multibar versions or what but i still want that guy with the missing mouth or nose in the middle of the flippers what's his the evil guy in the maldemore yeah waldemore yeah he should be Just like they have got on Star Wars, they have got Yoda, creepy Yoda. I hate that Yoda down there. I don't like it. When his eyes blink, I don't like it, man. But they should have Voldemort on Potter. Have you two played Potter? Yeah, I own the thing. What do you think about it? I like the game. It's fun. I hope it's the standard going forward. Yeah. It shoots fine. What do you think? It's their best shooting game, I would say, next to – I think Elton John's maybe a little bit more kinetically fun. Richie's just got that beautiful upper flipper shot I love on Elton. When it loops around and goes into the piano, I just think that's such an amazing shot. Potter's great. It's like my only issues with it from the beginning, I think they fixed a lot of this, was just the amount going on at once. And I think JJP still struggles a little bit in figuring out the right balance between putting a lot into the code. I mean, sometimes when Keith hands that big diner menu of the rule set, like he's proud to hand it to you and you're like terrified to receive it. You know, it's just like just make it a little bit more approachable, a little bit more simple. They've got that beautiful screen. And even with Potter, there's like eight things happening at once. And I just wish they would make it more of a moment when you start playing Quidditch. Is it the same guy that made Hobbit with eight different screen things? Is it the same coder or what? No, this was Joe Katz. Hobbit was Keith P. Johnson. Okay. It's just too much for me. Just make one big screen. Simplify it, man. Simplify it. It's just too much for me. One thing I love about GNR is I just love that there's just the Guns N' Roses concert going on. And you're just filming the rock meter. And you have the small display on GNR at the pop-up that says, shoot the yellow shot. That's just in all games. Is JJP used to always have another monitor screen under the glass? They've stopped that. Yeah, yeah. They had that on Pirates also at the lockdown bar. If you didn't know what to go after, it was shoot to the east. yeah that was so cool i love stuff like that but yeah missing yeah i heard sonic is amazing by the way i'm like still ready to man i just that's what i'm hearing but what when do you think they will release that game i don't think it will be nine months from potter october i think i'm going to say like end of next year yeah okay i mean yeah as soon as they start limiting the ces for potter like they said it'll be time limited remember that yeah i mean if it's still it's a 5 000 if it's still selling i mean i wouldn't limit it you know if i was them so like i get it um and i think that's better for us in the end because there's going to be so what if potter ends up like gnr where you can just go out and get one for 6k and it's like a much better game it's it's probably gonna right what's interesting with potter now you're really not even seeing people trade them much i think people are just satisfied with it which is good i mean i always say this you want to buy a game that you don't want to sell it again and you want to just keep it and that's what i think all these companies are striving for talking about talking about jjp yesterday i heard um the latest electric bad show with uh kale and rachel there was a segment where Kale actually talked about the boards of JJP Games with the light board system, with the USB connectors and everything Kale said is absolutely true. We have the same issues. Now JJP Games on our main showroom where the games are turned on for a few hours couple of times a week no trouble they all hold up perfectly but jjp games at location oh my god we have some we have some headaches with that so they have to do something where the games can be turned on like 16 hours a day they are giving great service when we contact them and say this light board this usb this is bad they just sent the new parts but we came to the conclusion that my bro he's like he don't want to put new jjp games out on location his dream was i'm gonna order 10 extra harry potters and have it all over the place in denmark but he didn't that's sad and what kale is saying is completely true so yeah a little shout out to jjp do something about the quality baby yeah um yeah i mean i feel bad for the operators i don't know you know i i heard that nobody really ordered the arcade edition. I was shocked to hear that. It's the same exact game. I'm curious to see if they do that again. They really didn't get many orders. Maybe that's just because they made the CE so nice and unique. People love the gold, Chris. People love the gold. Gold and sparkly. They did a great job with that CE, though. I do give Eric credit for finding a really unique artist within that universe. The topper. The topper is terrible. It is terrible. Topper needs some work. Don, do you have it? Yeah, I had the CE, and I would still have it, except I decided to spontaneously buy a house, so I turned it and burned it for cash. We're going to talk about the house. I think I'd pick up a wizard down the road if I get it again, because I do like the radcals. I like that movie art. And, you know, the gold rails were cool, but, like, the Quidditch ones are still silver, even in the CE. They said it's something to do with, like, how those rails have to, like, send a signal to close a switch or something. It didn't work with the gold. Yeah. Small detail, but it bugged me. So at Expo, we didn't have spooky booth, right? We didn't have nothing but spooky. So they have sold out, nothing to do there. So Donnie, as a spooky man, give us some small info, man. How are the sales on the upcoming game going? Right. Did they just say, did they confirm the upcoming game with the picture? or how do we talk about this? There's been no official announcement. Now, you know, Bugs running around handing out the Zagnuts at the expo. So, I mean, they're hinting strongly or, like, expertly trolling. But, no, but did you see that somebody, a distro already posted that the pre-pre-orders are sold out? I think they may have gotten word on their allotment, and so they finally started taking cash. A little shop of games down in Florida just posted a thing saying, like, they sold out their pre-pre-orders. Okay, okay. So they start selling the game before no one has seen the game. It was the first game to sell out prior to reveal. Okay. Chris, is everything all right? Hold on. Brenda, when you come up, babe. I love you, but really? I'll clean up. Sounds like a diner. Yeah, we're good. We're good. Or keep it. Or keep it. Let everybody know. I'm going to clean up the whole kitchen. Don't worry, babe. Yeah, no. I think I've been enjoying watching the distros sort of talk about this game and talk about how everyone should get on a list. And they're not wrong. I keep saying I think it's going to sell out in nine minutes. And I think it's already sold out. And I think, you know, there was a little bit, I think, watching Winchester made Bug and Luke want to just remind everybody something big is about to come in just a couple months And we all know what it is It exciting Wasn it a bit badass move to just release Winchester like two three weeks before Spooky Game Like everybody knows this time is Spooky's time. Usually Spooky Day releases their game, only Spooky. They sell out. It's beautiful. And then the next year everybody is fighting. But the timing of Winchester, I was like, what's Buck thinking right now? What's Luke thinking right now? Spooky is always December, though. They're always December. So, you know, they hit excellent. No, the last game was a bit – last game wasn't December, was it? I think it may have been like end of November. Yeah. Oh, it was because I was at IAAPA. And when they opened the order gates, I was at the JJP booth at IAAPA, and I went ahead and put my deposit for Evil Dead. And at our interview, they said November also this time. So, yeah, it's a few weeks before they just came in and emptied 525 people's pockets, you know? Yeah, I told Bug and Luke this week, just give people the date. You know, if you have the date, just let them know the date. That's one of the things that always annoys me about pinball releases, right? It's like there's no date. There's no, you know, even just like our next game, 11-whatever, 11-23, whatever it's going to be. Yeah. Donnie, how are the distros? Do they want more games? Tell us something. How are the distros? They all want more games. Bugaloo have already been on record that if they went ahead and gave their allocations to all the distros, they'd run out of games and they would just be sold out already. I think the distro allocation requests already exceed how many games are going to exist. So they had to hold some for themselves to sell direct through the website, through phone sales. so that's what I don't get like you know you're saying there's no rush for distros now to like get money for games because like their allotments their allotment it's not like if they sell out now they can then order more and get them down the road or something or get some inventory they cannot get more games right? yeah so whether they took all the money now or they take it at launch day they're still going to sell the same amount maybe they just want the money earlier I don't know is Spooky selling half of the games in house? no I think it's much slower than that I don't know if it's going to be like 20. I don't know. They would make more money if they did half. I'm telling you. Chris, why? Couldn't they sell half of it in-house? This is a very controversial question because, of course, a hot title from a boutique, why are you handing money over to a third party that you don't necessarily need? but you know you in stern i understand it because you know you need them that's your customer because what you want them to buy in bulk you know the good games but you also want them to buy in bulk the bad games to get the next good game in bulk order but you know look i think it's a little a lot of these distros kept spooky going and you know who they are in the years when it was lean so it's kind of you know you scratched our back we'll scratch yours and it's a nice relationship Everyone's kind of winning. No one's really losing out here. That's the big challenge for Spooky now, and I always tell this to Bug and Luke. When you become successful, and they're very successful now. They've got a very good thing going. Just because you can make more money doesn't mean you always should see how high you can push it. We're seeing that in pinball. And I think Stern is a prime example of a product now that just doesn't deliver a product that feels like the price is there, like the value is there. And it's not me saying that. Look at the market. Every game now is just instantly heading south fast, where I think with Beetlejuice, and my prediction has been, I'm on the record, if Evil Dead are going for 15-16, this is Beetlejuice I think we're going to see. knocking at $18,000 on the second-hand market when it sells out instantly. I just watch it happen. Yeah, it's not like a game where it's okay and then maybe you would consider selling it. Anybody that gets one of these is going to want to keep it too, and that's also going to push that price up because the price to pry one of these things out of somebody's hands is going to be the hard thing. Guys, we are talking like this, and listeners on podcasts, they're just listening. but we will also have this on YouTube and they're going to look at us. Donnie has a spooky t-shirt. You have a spooky shield. I have a spooky shield. And we're talking like this. I mean, okay, let's just be honest. We love spooky. It is what it is. But right now, like Chris is saying, most of the games, they're just like weeks after release, they lose value. Except Spooky's Evil Dead. They cost like 15. They were at the show, right, at Expo. They cost like $15,000 or something. $16,500. $16,500. There you go. I sold them all. Yeah, I sold. Okay, it had blood painted on the armor. But, you know, this is so cool. And Chris, by saying, you know, 13,000 games, for almost an hour, we have kept it perfectly fine. Let's just keep the show fine. But I just need to say this. 13,000, it's just too much. they need to take these prices down they need to take them down and it's they're going up they're about to raise their prices because here's the way i look at with these collectors and these buyers right i mean i'm looking at don's you know wall of pins and you know we know so many people with four five ten pins what would you rather have one really special sixteen thousand dollar game that you never want to get rid of that makes you smile every day you see it like an evil dead or what's about to come out even a winchester right or like two stern premiums for 10 000 each which is going to set you back 20 grand which is a dime a dozen kind of game which then loses two to three thousand dollars in value it's just it's a no brainer i'd rather have one thing that's special than two things that are mediocre and what stern's done with a thousand le's of again i think some of you know the passion is just not coming through in some of their recent releases, people are just saying, I'd rather look elsewhere. This is maybe the collectors. Stern's still selling a lot of games, but they've lost all the specialness that used to be a Stern LE because they used to have that. The frenzy, the FOMO, the sellout instantly, they're not used to this world where they're... This is a niche hobby, right? And the secondary market is so important. Right now, we really feel the secondary sales are just so bad, so slow, so low. Stern cannot feel it right now, but this will have the wobbling effect and go to the distros. All of a sudden, distros cannot sell. When they are stuck with a lot of games, by then, Stern will feel the effect. Maybe in two years from now, they can feel the wobbling. I think it's now, Cengiz. I heard Seth met with the dealers and distros, and it was a – I heard he was like kind of you guys need to start being nicer and start selling this stuff. Like Eric Gilley who I heard they let go. Their sales department I heard is like basically like bullying these dealers and distros to get in line or else. But the problem now is there is an or else. There's all these great boutiques now making games. And that's – I don't think they saw that coming. I really don't. That's the thing that I think they miscalculated. And even miscalculated on letting themes like Beetlejuice go, like Back to the Future go. What are you doing? When George Gomez said nobody wanted to make Beetlejuice and nobody wanted to make Back to the Future, he said this. How did they get to that place? How can nobody want to make Back to the Future? Go find somewhere else. to get the license out of Barry's hands, and he wouldn't do it. I don't know what they're going to do. I don't know how they're going to make those games, to be honest, but it's going to be fun to watch and try. When Stern gets asked, are you going to make a price increase, price reduction, what's going on there, the official answer is we haven't had a price increase for the last two years. Which means it's coming, which is what they're saying there. But that's what they mean when they say that. Yeah, but they – We should be happy that we haven't. No, no. We need the – Any price increase is going to – I know a lot of distros. I mean the common enemy right now, people want to buy pinball machines. People love pinball machines. They come out and try these games. And when we tell the prices, they're like, I can buy a car for that money. how can stern how can stern reduce the price to 9 500 for an le what what can they do more ai i mean what the heck the problem is the hole just keeps getting bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper because what do they now do because the more you keep pushing out thousands of these depreciating significantly depreciating games what do you do then then if you do lower the price now Then everyone who bought at the higher price is never going to buy from you again. It feels like that movie was a marching call movie. If we do this, they will never buy from you again. I think they're stuck. The only way out is with amazing games that people want. If they dropped Back to the Future, we wouldn't be having a conversation about 13,000 and 1,000 LEs. We'd be doing everything we can to try to get one. I want the 88-mile-an-hour edition. Yeah, I want that SLE with the special powder coat. 88. When they can't – I mean when Stern can make a game like Godzilla, why do they release a game like Venom after or Star Wars after? What? I mean how can they get that stamp and say, bam, okay, release this after Godzilla? I don't get it. Because they need to keep the line going. And have you guys all – you've all visited the new Stern. I mean, it's kind of, I feel excited and sad for them at the same time. It's overwhelming. Like, you just don't need it all. And they have to keep all that going every single launch. The pressures, I mean, it broke Jack Danger. Like, the pressure is so overwhelming. And you can see it in their body language. They just seem stressed out. And you just, I feel the opposite when I look at other manufacturers now. There's just more of an enthusiasm and an excitement. Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't want to be them. I really don't know the way out. I just think they got too big during COVID, and they're just boxed in now to this massive. And for the last few years, they got some new distros so they can ship up more games for these distros. But I'm just saying, I'm just saying, this is just freestyling. Again, no notes, no nothing. Freestyling, right? Hi, Brenda. we're just freestyling and we're just saying this how about because stern is very good to their distros like the margin is really nice how about they just cut all this distro stuff and sold directly yeah if they did that i don't want to say the number but look at the price reduction man For that price reduction, they could hire five guys that would help with troubleshooting. Okay, let's say we sell a Harry Potter, right? So our guy buys a Harry Potter, and we get the margin. Cool, cool, everything is cool, everybody is happy. A month later, a LED board burns. They contact us. The only thing we do is just contact Jersey Jack, and Jersey Jack sends out the part. All that could be in-house. just as a distro. This is just an idea. If they sold just in-house, look at the price reduction of these games. Yeah, I just don't think they want to deal with it. They just built the whole model the way it is, and I think it's impossible now for them to... I mean, nothing's impossible. They've got all those people working in the cubicles. They've got a lot of people. I don't know what they're all doing every day, but yeah. Yeah. The whole margin thing with dealers and distro, it's an old model. It still exists. I'm going to get in trouble because I have a lot of dealer and distro friends who make a good living on it. Look, I still think it's a nice win-win when everyone's successful. I mean, and the industry allows for that, but it always will require a good game. A good game will make everybody make money. It's not working anymore. Well, because the games – because the games – and they made too many. They just made too many. And, like, there is something – yeah, but there's something – like, I always say that James Bond's 60th was, like, the tipping point for them. Because the moment – $100,000. The moment you crap on your own buyers and you make a move like that – it was $20,000. And then they still walked it back. George Gomez says, well, we didn't set the price. The dealers did. I'm like, George, it was on your website. It was on the website. 19 – yeah, 999. 1999, right? end on with tax because when you buy from stern direct tax tax people paid 20 almost 23 000 for that game with shipping hey what does that mean if you buy direct from stern you play tax don't you pay tax if you buy from a distro it just depends i think what state you're in and and whatnot but where it's sold to i don't know but there's tax on the stern receipt if you bought it from them oh but again that was my idea doesn't work but that was a move that was made in a boardroom not because of they needed like there was nothing to do with like the bomb or the licensing fee for that game they literally said if we do this they'll buy it and that is telegraphing we think our buyers are this stupid and some bought and then they all lost 10 grand on one game and you you just don't recover is the second world market 10 000 yeah they're going for like 12 now people pay like 22 you just don't recover from that without and i don't know they're like and they've done a series of things where it was just more Elvira's when we said we wanted more Jurassic Parks when we said we would. Oh, man. You know, their strategy was to really everything with Godzilla black and white was supposed. I mean, George said it was supposed to be an L.A. OK, so you're going to. Yeah, you change that, Chris. But it's I almost feel bad because I'm like, why? I just don't think you need to keep doing this. Like it was nice when L.A.'s were ten five and you hand it some great secondhand value to everybody and then move on to the next ten five le because a 10.5 le is not sinking that bad if you buy it and all the other games were cheaper because of that also oh those those days were it's like five years ago or something it was just so cool back then this is just i'm just saying 13 is just too freaking much we okay let me give you a little example here so i'm gonna spooky shill and make sure that uh spooky luke will never talk to me again but this is a psychological thing right so i had this private conversation with luke so months months and months back we talk about this this upcoming game that comes up in a couple of weeks and i asked directly will can you hold it under 10k again and and luke he said we're trying but this game is just jam-packed it's just pumped up with great stuff and all the ideas everything it will be, I'm not going to say the number but he said that it will be a bit over the 10k right? and I was like Luke, do something, keep it on the 10k sell some more, instead of 800 sell 1000 or more parts cheaper, all that do something, and they did their magic kept the price on the 10k, and there is just psychological wait, are you taking credit for that? no, I'm not taking credit I'm saying that's how you do it. It's so freaking cool. Keep it on the chain. It's a beautiful 999 games at $9,999. Stern should do the same. Everybody should do the same. It's just – Okay, but also like look at – okay, so the topper is separate, right, with the spooky game. But look at the topper on Evil Dead, right? And then look at a topper on a Stern machine. They're just recycling the gorilla. No, it's the same gorilla. It's the same exact gorilla No Isn't it bigger or something? No, it's the same exact gorilla Because they didn't One to one from the playfield They took them up there Yes I just don't understand how there's nobody With a little bit of common sense Who's like, again Are we really going to do that? You know what people are going to They're going to think we've got all these parts left over Because the game's not Yeah How about the shooter rod? Is that the same dong in the playfield? I think it might be How much does it cost? I think it's like $150 That's the other thing too How much does the topper cost? $1,300, $1,400 So it costs about the same As a Spooky's topper then Oh my Right I think the through line for them Games would still sell at these prices As long as the value is there If I'm seeing the value there It's a game I really want a theme i really want the game is great or like you start throwing in shooter rods or you give me a discount on the top if i buy the le or something something you know bake it in there you know and don and jen is like it's still so shocking to me that they don't understand all they need to do is put exclusive modes in the le oh yeah like the software too like people still talk about daft punk multiball and tron le yeah you have to have the le to experience some of the magical moments. You know, why don't they – again, it's just lazy. We don't want to treat the highest-paying customers any different. The Kong Elite feel different from the premium. $3,000 more. $3,500, right? No. I mean the art on the Pro is the same as the art on the $13,000 version. Oh, that's the worst. Come on, Zombie Yeti. You're the head of the art. He doesn't like me right now. But he's the head of the art department. Oh, man. And he's making that – I'm like, you can't do it. If you're going to do three different models, one of which is double the price, how can you make it look exactly the same? Again, this is just common sense decisions. You need to get that exclusive feeling, that limited feeling. And just like on Guns N' Roses, at the right outlay, they made this extra ball saver thing on the – The coma lock on the left? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Something like that, man. They need something exclusive. But I just love the way Spooky does it. Just under 10K, pump up the play field, just freaking enjoyable. I'm so sorry. You're so distracted. Is Brenda walking in underwear? I'm not distracted. I hope so. Am I distracted? No. Look, I can't wait to see what happens in a few weeks. It's going to be a fun fall into winter with this new title. Anything else you think is going to happen in the next couple of months? Any other surprises? I mean, early next year we will have the new Pedretti and soon – I don't know which one will come for us, The Walking Dead or Spooky. Yeah. Yeah, I have no idea. I'm worried about The Walking Dead. I really am. I'm really worried. Why? Because I think we're going to see the price increase. no no nobody sees you mean nobody here's what i'm worried about is the old walking dead le was 6500 yeah i'm just how do you sell me on the yeah you should usually look yeah usually stern looks at the market they looked at you know jurassic park elite it cost 19 000 do you remember that before they made the 30th edition yeah yeah usually they look at these high numbers and remake those games But like the Walking Dead was never an expensive game I'm sure it's going to be the best version Of Walking Dead But I'm not hearing anybody like enthusiastically Waiting like I can't wait for it to drop My money is ready to go Take my money here I think it's going to come out It's going to be the best looking Walking Dead ever It's a great playing game It's going to have the LCD screen and all that And no one's really going to care I'm excited about Walking Dead But one of our Patreon supporters Wrote something like maybe they would make a Comic Art Black and White Edition? If that's true, I would be so disappointed. Come on man I need all the new movie seasons They have like four seasons people think they gonna throw in the show clips and i don think so for for newer seasons well it liming on the codes which is you're not gonna mess too much with that right so i don't know i just don't think they're gonna go get the clips they didn't get the clips for king kong they're not gonna go get them for the walking dead but they updated the other line the metallica game well but they work with Metallica on it to do it, right? They got concert footage. That was awesome. So I don't know. That was really cool. I want to talk about the next game that Canada bought, which was Alice in Adventure's Wonderland. How is that going? Why aren't you getting your game, Chris? I mean, I'm at the end of the line just to see how the market goes on it. You know, I'm friends with Melvin. I want to support. You know, I've been very candid. I say it to him every day, and I think he was very successful in turning a foam core into a working pinball machine that has nice art. It's not a great game. I don't think it's a great game. I think it's an okay game. And again, I just think it's a different game. But yeah, with this low run of like Winchester is like a much more complete game. Razza's got a lot more in it than Alice does. in the end, I know Melvin, he didn't want to make 500. I think Barry was a little overly optimistic, but he sold them, but the spots are available. They're not going up in price, and I think when all is said and done, it is still amazing that Melvin, again, he saved Dutch Pinball with this game. And the new marketing strategy around it, which I think is smart, I don't know logistically how they do this when it comes time to do it, is that if you own an Alice, your first online for Back to the Future. That's smart. I've never seen a company do that. I've been doing this for 12 years. There's more value now in Alice than ever before because of that, because at the pace at which they can make games, they can only make like 500 a year. But they said that they will make all the games in 2025, right? Well, they're not. No, they're going to end up around like three. Back in October last year. Yeah, yeah, but it's Dutch. They've made one game in 12 years. What are the numbers up at? Do you know the – Yeah, they're probably around like – they'll end the year probably around like 350-ish, maybe around there. They don't risk 150 people getting their money back. Right. And what's interesting about this Back to the Future offer now is – okay, so they're basically handing you one of the first 500 games, right? which on a company that can only make 500 a year that's gonna people are gonna pay over to get one year one because it's back to the future i've heard great things about the game so now you're you know you're ostensibly giving people money on the table because you could flip it back to the future let's be honest right if they're really hard to get and it's year one you're they're gonna go up uh or you could get a refund and just get your money back so melvin has told me it's worked. People are removing their refund requests and might as well just get it and get your back to the future. I want to ask you, for a year I have said to Donnie, Donnie, you need to be a distro. You live in the US, you have a great relationship, but he took the next step. Now he's a part of Spooky. So cool. I'm going to ask you, Chris, you have great connection with Dutch Pinball, with Melvin. Right? You have a great following of Patreon supporters. Right? I mean, do you have like 700 people that are listening to you every week? Right? 650. 650, sorry. But they're supporting you. Yeah? You have a lot of Canadian fans or what you want to call them. You know about drop ship deals. You know everything. Yeah. I know what you're going to say. Yeah, yeah. But why don't you just become a distro man? Come on. and get exclusivity with Melvin. And you could do so well in the U.S. If you said, I mean, the first hundred of Back to the Futures from Canada. Well, I think anyone that makes content and being a distro, right, there's a little conflict there, right? And it's not a tremendous conflict. No, I know, but like Zach does it. Like it's not a tremendous conflict. But, you know, in the end, I don't know anything about being a dealer or a distro. so there's just that. It's big. You can learn it. Yeah, like I'm assuming it's not terribly hard. No, I'm not ruling it out down the road. I just kind of – Oh, you heard the first always. I'm sorry. That was my mouth. Here's why. We work really hard making a lot of this content, right? It takes a lot of our time. it's not lost on me that a dealer can drop ship three le's and make more than i can make all month you know spending how many hours making content it's not lost on me that you can make a lot in one single day um but you know good for them they you know i don't take anything away from people who are in that industry i have a lot of friends who do it um and some of them are making a lot of money. This is my side hobby. This is not my day job. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I mean, AI puts me out of work and I need to figure out something else to do. I mean, it's nice to have some options in this hobby. Yeah. I mean, Don and I, we're blessed. We're getting a lot of patron support with this one-year-old show. You have been on air for like 10 years, I have with my own eyes seen Chris's numbers. He showed everything to me. I'm not going to share it here, but those numbers, this guy is blessed. Okay. No, but it's like Dave Ramsey. It's time value of money. I mean, again, you've got to look at all the hours you put in. Yeah. Even if it's $4,000 a month or $5,000 a month or $3,000 a month, you give enough months and that number goes up. It's nicer and nicer. I got to pay taxes on it, though, too. This isn't – I'm not Chauncey Billups. Did you see what he had? A poker table that had x-ray glasses so he could see his friends' cards, and he robbed his friends of $7 million at poker matches. This is a basketball player, Cengiz. In America, we're dealing with a huge sports betting scandal this week that's just rocking the entire – Well, that's what you were playing last night. You talked about playing poker. I know. I lost again. I got to just stop. It's just not – these neighborhood poker matches don't end well. Yeah. I mean, look. I just think it's nice that this hobby in general has provided – and Don, you're experiencing this. It's just a nice lifestyle and just – I think we all just – we love it, right? We just love – I could talk about this all day long. I go into my day job. I love the creative outlet that this gives us because when I go into my real job, I get rejected 95% of the time when I have an idea. But with pinball content, there's no permission I need to ask. There's no people weighing in. You can just be you and share your community. You have so many listeners. You have so many listeners, so many people that support you. That's why you should consider opening a little showroom, start selling those games. The Darnators Pinball. Well, this is what Stern gets wrong. In these neighborhoods where I have the cheapest house in the neighborhood, these people have money and they don't have pinball machines. They don't know about pinball machines. There is growth to be had, but I just think the way Stern went about it, like Gen Z kids, is like the worst way to think about growth. You know, everyone's a potential pinball owner. I go into some people's houses and I'm shocked. Sometimes I go into a guy's house. I went into one guy's house like a few months ago. He had a Jaws premium. He bought from Automated. First game. He's in his beautiful like multimillion-dollar home. He knew nothing about pinball. These are guys that don't know about code updates. They're not on Pinside. And I think there's a lot of those just people who just want to put some fun stuff in their house, and they don't want to get in – When you talk about marketing, you're a marketing guy. I was at Stern's page when they released Star Wars. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so I was just going in there, checking things out. You were just at the Pinball Expo. People are like me, you know, lazy and fat as I am, you know, cargo shorts that you're talking about. And I was at Stern's webshop. Have you seen those pictures with these young teenagers on there, you know, The TikTok generation, yeah, playing pinball is cool. It's just – Yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean, right? It's just weird. Porsche was selling Porsches with like 18-year-olds leaning against them. It's like, really? I don't know. You know what I mean, right? I mean it just hits the wrong segment. I don't know many 20-year-old kids that own pinball machines in their houses. It could be cool. When I went over there and I had my little PowerPoint deck, I put up images of all their marketing individuals, and then I put up images of the people in the community. And I just told them, guys, you need to move a little bit more this way and just show more of the people that actually buy the product. Look, I think Stern is – they're working with agencies. It just feels like a lot of decisions are made by committee, and they don't know. It's not wrong. Again, no one cares about pinball t-shirts. Let's be honest. I just want good games. Everyone just wants good games. I don't care about the new denim jacket that they've got on their marketplace. We just want great games. It's just we are all interested in pinball growth, right? But this way, I think in 10 years, pinball is half of what it is right now. Seriously. I know some people are saying a tournament, blah, blah, blah. How many tournament players have got pinball machines like Don in the background? How many of them? Right? Yeah. Well, the future is always going to be boutique. You just can't sustain it at what they have to do. But that's fine. I mean, there's always going to be demand, though, because what I love about pinball is nothing digital will ever make it obsolete. And it's rare to say that about a product. I still have friends that buy pinball machines as a future investment when they get into their – what's it called when you get so many in the U.S.? Retire? Retirement? Yeah, when they get retired. Yeah, retirement. Yeah, all their games will be – I think in 10, 15 years, these games won't be that expensive anymore. I'm telling you. Most of them won't. Most of them won't. It's just an oversaturation. Yeah. But everything's just supply to man. I mean, that's – Chris, I'm telling you, we are dinosaurs. I get contacted. The last one was like 10 years ago. I sold a very cheap alien poker to a lady. Her husband had a 60-year-old birthday or something. She came here. She picked up the game. They contacted me a few weeks back. Her husband died. She said, do you want to come and pick up the game for free? And I said, no, just put it on our Craigslist. She was like, if you don't want to pick it up, We'll just throw it to the recycling, you know, just throw it out. I was like, no, don't do that. So we're dinosaurs. We're dying. And the next generation is not there yet. I mean. Dinosaurs did live for 65 million years. Yeah, but we don't do that. We don't do that. So all this is just retirement investment. I think 10, 15 years, pinball is half the size of what it is right now. I'm just saying, just remember this. Cengiz said it. I said it. I don't know if 10 bucks is great. What do you think if Stern goes away? I mean, Stern, I don't know. I mean, as long as... I don't think Stern goes away. I don't think so. I think many other companies will die before Stern. Don't you think Stern has a lot of money in the bank? I think all of us would admit that it is surprising how long some companies can hang on. And some people have annuities coming from other areas. Like, Ametron could fund American Pinball. Right now we're seeing these Cuphead photos, and people are like, oh, actually looks like it could have been their best game. 100%. Make it. Yeah. I don't know what's going on with them over there anymore. I don't know who's making decisions. I know a lot of people have reached out, like, if you're not going to make it, let us purchase it from you, and we'll make it. And they're like, no, we're not interested in that. So, yeah, I don't know. They finally had a game that's like it's their best game. Yeah, where is it? So upcoming games from Stern, we have heard Pokemon, right? Are you guys, as, you know, 40-ish-year-old adults, are you interested in Pokemon? I was a year ago. Are you excited for Pokemon? I was a year ago. Are you going to buy Pokemon? I was a year ago. I'm more excited for Transformers for obvious reasons. but I think Pokemon it's like Rick and Morty if you haven't seen it before well maybe not Rick and Morty because Rick and Morty is adult humor and it clicks with this audience I think it could be fun I definitely don't think it's the demo though I think people are going to be surprised it's not going to sell as well as I think they think it will but it is the biggest IP in the world and if someone offered you to make a Pokemon game you're going to say yes you're going to do it Yeah, absolutely. And we heard about Fallout. Are you excited about that? No. How about you, Donnie? I mean, I like that it's something more current than just another dad rock band or a movie from the 70s. So I want to see what they do with it. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but I am a fan of what Stern's been doing as far as logging in, leveling up. I mean, I was playing D&D late last night when I should have been asleep, just chasing goals and things. And that's all I want to do. So if they can bring that, that would get me into it. I want to see – that should be every game. You should be able to log in, save your progress, and work towards something. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool. And now they have got home leaderboards you can buy for $100 a month. Have you guys done that? No. Oh, you don't have no – I don't even have a Stern machine. Does it detect if the glass is off? Because I'm just going to be at the top of every leaderboard just like pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip. Did you sell your arcade machine So you could have more pinball machines in your home? I just don't have room I've got a freed up room in the garage So I've got room for one more in the garage And what's that one game going to be? Do you have something in your mind? Yes It's supposed to be the next Spooky Is what I've got in mind Oh nice Donnie shouldn't we sell a Spooky game for our supporters here? What's going on man? I don't know I'm trying to get one at least first. And then I think by the time I get back to the end of the line to grab another one, they're going to be gone. Wow. How cool is that, right? Is that because it's under $10,000? Or is it because it's an awesome game? It's everything. It's what happened with Evil Dead. It's the fact that it's a theme people want. And the price is great. They're limited, like truly limited. The code is going to be supported for the next decade. Yeah. Topper is amazing. It's all of that. Franchi's art. It's got Franchi. Franchi's the guy that made the Translayer five years ago and has been peddling it, trying to get it made. It's all of it shows. He's passionate about this. All those design concepts he brought Stern would have sold great. It was like Superman 78. It was Wonder Woman. Was it like an ego thing? they're like we'll handle the themes thank you very much you go do your caricatures you know like or what happened what happened yeah yeah yeah so he's exclusive now that's at spooky i think it's a great baller movement i love it i love it so i have one last question that i have prepared and written down did you did you see me read everything one last question so at expo chris Koulouris from Hellcat Pinball Podcast. Did you get into any fight at Expo? No. Expo was great. There was no drama. It was a lot of fun. There was no fight? There was some threatening and fight and all that. Nothing happened? I mean, I got escorted out for a little bit. Oh, what did you do? It wasn't me. You did something. Rob was... Someone just had... It wasn't even a thing. It was five minutes, and Rob was like, no. Okay. It was good. It was good. It was good. It was a lot of fun. And I always say when we meet people, and Don, it was great to shake hands and see you. And I want to say on the air that I'm sorry we got into that. It was like a year and a half ago. So it's great to just figure out a way forward and support each other and support the companies and our content. And it's great. It was just a good vibe show. I just felt that. Other than looking at the Stern table, they all looked like they didn't want to talk to me. But other than that, I just felt a lot of good energy from people. And there's a great panel discussion about content creators that Retro Ralph hosted. That was a lot of fun. And that's what the shows are all about. We're going to get a lot of chances to play these games, but we don't get a lot of chances to see each other in person. And it's nice to have that. So I think anyone who's on the fence about going to these shows, that's what the shows are all about. And the games just bring us together. But it's really the relationships we make that make pinball so valuable. Absolutely, man. I'm so happy we're doing it this way. This is much more fun. This is much more fun. Commodory, talking about pinball, just having a good time. My favorite video of all the videos from the expo is when I see Kale Hernandez in the background with his phone filming while you're playing at the piano Guns N' Roses music. I see you. I see Kale. It was so good. They took the piano away because there was another – there was like a conference going on with – it was amazing. John, were you there? was it Thursday night, the mixture in the bar was funny. There was like another conference happening and you couldn't get a more polar opposite group of people in the same place and they moved the piano out and I asked the front desk to move it back. It's kind of been like a tradition, a little late night tickling of the ivory. Wow. It was really great, man. I enjoyed that. Just want to put that in also. Alright, guys. I don't have more questions. Do you two have something more in you? now I'm going to go do work now it's 9.30 in the morning you have to clean up everything yeah, Brenda's like side-eyeing me so yeah, it's going to be good thank you for joining us man I mean when we made this little promo a few hours back people were like, oh no, you three it's going to be earthquake and blah blah blah but look, friendly civilized I wanted more vitriol manufacturers got angry beautiful stuff. Let's do it this way, right? Friendly. We might have made some manufacturers angry. Who knows? But who cares? That's my thing. Who cares? Prove us wrong. Bring the value. Exactly. You say value. I say price reduction. Like Spooky's prices. I said it. It's one or the other. If you can't make the games better, then you've got to lower the price so we see the value. Yeah. It is. And that's the final words. Okay, Donnie, let's get this outro, baby. Happy Friday. All right. Cengiz, go drink. Bye, everybody. Bye. Oh, man, what a great discussion we all had. Be sure to email us at wearepinball69 at gmail.com, patreon.com backslash wearepinball. Kaneda, where can people find you hanging out at besides the dark recesses of the pinball hobby? You can find me on Facebook. you can find me on Patreon and I think there's a bunch of shows on SoundCloud just Google Canada's Pinball Podcast fantastic Cengiz go have a great day I'll talk to you later later buddy bye