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Ep 59: Legends

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 15m·held·Aug 8, 2022
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Tournament recap: Brisbane & Yagpin events, plus IFPA format debate on group vs efficiency-based play.

Summary

Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discuss their experiences at two major pinball tournaments: Brisbane Masters in Australia and Yagpin (Edmonton) in Canada. They cover tournament logistics, player performances, specific game experiences (particularly Dolly Parton and Godzilla), and dive into a detailed discussion about IFPA tournament formats, specifically criticizing the efficiency-based scoring that favors Flip Frenzy tournaments over traditional group play formats.

Key Claims

  • Brisbane Masters had over 200 people signed up, with 25-30 pulling out last minute due to COVID

    high confidence · Martin Robbins reporting directly on Brisbane Masters attendance

  • Richard Rhodes tested positive in the car park before Brisbane Masters and couldn't compete

    high confidence · Martin Robbins recounting a specific incident at Brisbane Masters

  • Steven Bowden won Brisbane Masters, with Tony Cirillo from Western Australia reaching the final

    high confidence · Martin Robbins providing tournament results

  • Jeff played in the Orion Seas tournament on Friday and finished 5th overall in qualifying

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis detailing his own tournament performance

  • IFPA changed four-player group scoring to 2x TGP eight years ago to prevent tournaments from switching to two-player groups

    medium confidence · Jeff Teolis quoting Josh (IFPA director) explanation of historical scoring decisions

  • Flip Frenzy formats are 'too efficient' and can fit 25 games in 3 hours

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis quoting Josh's criticism of Flip Frenzy efficiency

  • Yagpin had 70 volunteers helping run the tournament

    high confidence · Martin Robbins praising Yagpin organization

  • Eric Stone won the pro tournament at Yagpin, coming from Florida

    high confidence · Martin Robbins recounting Yagpin results

Notable Quotes

  • “It's been at least 21 days since my fly's been down and again it's conscious”

    Jeff Teolis @ Early in episode — Humorous personal anecdote; callback to feedback from previous episode

  • “Here, as we are now in August of 2022, if you are going to a pinball tournament with more than 30 people, somebody there has COVID.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Mid-episode discussion of Brisbane Masters — Commentary on post-COVID tournament reality and realistic expectations

  • “When I came to the top eight and Ryan like oh are you going to play? And I'm like, no, I think I'm going to forfeit...all these people just went, what? No, you can't do that.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Discussing Orion Seas playoffs — Shows community pressure and social expectations around tournament participation

  • “It's what made me stop in the first place and we've talked about this, it's the whole win-lose thing you're either the winner or you're one of the many losers”

    Jeff Teolis @ Discussing why he stopped playing tournaments — Reveals core motivation for stepping back from competitive play

  • “By the way, he told me to post on Tilt forums to see what kind of feedback I would get. I fucking knew what kind of feedback I was going to get.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Discussing IFPA format debate — Commentary on predictable forum dynamics and tournament director opinions

  • “Eight years ago, a lot of tournaments were switching from four-player groups to two-player groups because they realized that it took too long to play a four-player group.”

    Jeff Teolis @ IFPA history discussion — Historical context for current IFPA scoring system design decision

  • “I hate the right out lane. You can go up the right in lane, hit the saucer, kiss your ball goodbye.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Discussing Godzilla design — Specific gameplay criticism of modern Stern title; honest critique despite owning one

Entities

Jeff TeolispersonMartin RobbinspersonRichard RhodespersonSteven BowdenpersonTony CirillopersonJimmy NailspersonJason LambertpersonEscher Lefkoff

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Brisbane Masters 2022 confirmed as successful large tournament with 200+ entrants despite COVID withdrawals, strong organization by Jimmy Nails and Jason Lambert

    high · Martin's detailed account of attendance, organization quality, and player experience; contrasts positively with previous years' tournaments

  • ?

    event_signal: Yagpin (Edmonton) 2022 featured multi-format structure with 70 volunteers, professional streaming, and multiple tournament tiers attracting national and international players

    high · Martin's comprehensive tournament description including volunteer count, streaming partnership with Die Hard Pinball, and geographic diversity of top finishers

  • ?

    community_signal: COVID-related withdrawals and exposures remain normal at large tournaments despite general reopening; tournament organizers should expect 10-15% no-show rates

    high · Brisbane Masters lost 25-30 of 200+ entrants to COVID; Richard Rhodes withdrew day-of; Jeff's tournament had multiple withdrawals; both hosts normalize this as expected

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Dolly Parton (presumed modern title) is notably difficult/brutal; known among tournament community for harsh outlane rules and high difficulty

    medium · Martin notes it as 'brutal'; describes triple outlane drain on three balls; marked as one of those notorious difficult tournament machines

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Jeff Teolis had negative prior opinion of Godzilla but revised it positively after understanding core rule systems; now has one on order

    high · Jeff explicitly states previous confusion about the game, credits Ryan Wanger with clarifying shot progression and multiball mechanics, now enthusiastic despite disliking flop flippers and right outlane

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.226

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:40
You thought you had to wait like months or weeks and weeks for another episode. No, we're back, baby. Hi, I'm Jeff Teolis. I was looking forward to having another break, but not to be. Here we are. My name is Martin Robbins. This is episode 59 of the Final Round Pinball Podcast. No need to break because we've got a new editor. yeah that's right it's me this week so if it sounds shit you're welcome it'll sound fine content can't do much about that we're just concerned about the editing the polish on it it'll be lovely well what people don't really know is you know people go oh i love your podcast it's great but you don't realize how shit it sounds before the edit i've been known to crack my voice once or twice a lot of stuttering a few ums and ahs if we screw up we do it over again you don't know you think it's all live no no lots and lots of takes tons this whole episode is actually scripted you know when we go off script we've got to edit it back so my biggest fear is uh you can hear me turn the pages when i'm reading or hear you putting your zip back up can i just say just on the outset thank you to everybody for your feedback on last episode i feel we've sort of struck a chord with our audience because we got a lot of feedback we'll get to our emails but yes thank you thank you martin and thank everyone who helped me with my little uh new hobby my new fashion trend guess what i'm i i want to put up a sign like you know when you go into a factory and they say it's been 21 days since an accident it's been at least 21 days since my fly's been uh down and again it's conscious i've actually had people come up to me in edmonton say looking good i'm like oh thanks what you like the shirt no no your flies up eyes up here baby eyes up here quit looking at my crotch can't help it when you're actually walking with your fingers pointing down going have a look at this yes i wear three socks two on my feet i forget where the other one is it doesn't matter how was uh let's we'll get to edmonton in a second because you finally this time with a haggis hat on got to go to a pinball event and a freaking big one at the Brisbane Masters. Oh, and it was sensational, I've got to say. I was asked many times to compete. Even up to the morning when we got there on the Saturday morning, I even brought my headphones with me just in case. And then when Jimmy Nails said, do you want to play? I went, you know what, I don't. I mean, I do. It's a business trip first and foremost, but I just wanted to be there to talk to people, get some feedback on our machines and just generally have a good relaxing time. It was at a brewery, which obviously means there's lots of beer. But what I also discovered, there was also lots of gin. And in fact, my new favorite gin, a peach and passion fruit gin. Oh, my God. Everyone just kept buying me them. So I had a great time. When you say your favorite, you mean you've actually switched? This is now your go-to brand? Yeah, we'll see. It's my current favourite in that it's the last one that I've had that I've gone, oh, my God, this is amazing. So, yeah. It's a new toy. Yeah, it's a new shiny thing. So that's it. But, yeah, Brisbane Masters was awesome. It was really good. From everybody that I've spoken to, all the participants absolutely had a great time. Got to tell you, from a spectator's point of view, there's probably a bit much to say it's just as good, but, geez, it was close. I had such a good time just sitting out the back, watching the big screen. There was groups of people watching it, lots of oohs and ahhs and oh my God and post-pass and do all this kind of stuff. To see some great players do well and some great players do not so well and some underdogs do really well. So yeah, it was a fantastic, fantastic tournament. I always think of it as tournaments first, but you said there was a good show. I mean, obviously you're there with Haggis and there are other vendors there as well. I've seen Dr. John's last two years of doing the flybys where he goes through the banks, which really amaze me. Great quality and variety of games and looks like there's a nice free play area there. So a lot going on. The Donkey Kong off, if you will. So tell me more about it because I always think of it, again, as the tournaments. Well, yeah. I mean, it was just good to be able to watch lots of groups playing. I think there was maybe 175. There was actually over 200 people. I don't know if this is a topic that you've got on your list, but there was actually over 200 people signed up, but about 25, 30 people all had to pull out last minute because of COVID. Ian. This just in, everybody. Here, as we are now in August of 2022, if you are going to a pinball tournament with more than 30 people, somebody there has COVID. So don't bitch and complain when you're like, oh, this is some kind of super spreader. No, that's what it's like when you play indoors, especially in something like pinball. I know people that have gone to tournaments and worn not only just masks, but the good N95 and had all kinds of sanitation and the Purell and all that stuff. Wash their hands, never took the mask off. They still fucking get COVID. It's here. You know how to avoid getting super sick. We don't need to get into that, but it's not going away. And that's one of the ugly things of pinball. maybe why we've seen some decline in numbers i'm happy that you know we're getting out and about and i did that on purpose to have that canadian accent we're getting out yeah i totally did i fucking totally did anyway we are going to pinball tournaments and we're not huddled at home so yeah look again when it's a physical thing you are flipping you're touching buttons that somebody else has just touched there's a physical transmission of this virus gonna happen prior to fucking covid you were grabbing those flippers and you're you know somebody's feces from not wiping their ass and washing their hands or boogers or things like seriously or whatever the hell food they ate i mean listen if you think pinball is a clean sport or hobby newsflash it's not oh no it's gross it's gross so yeah anyway that's what happened in fact i was actually really disappointed because one of our best players, Richard Rhodes, actually did a test in the car park before the tournament on Saturday and came out positive, so he couldn't compete. Well, that is an honourable thing for Richard to do that. I know how much he likes playing. I can tell you, I know people that have tested positive and still play anyway. Yeah, yeah. Probably happened there at Brisbane. No, I would say it's more so that people didn't know because, you know, the symptoms don't come on the second you get it. It's a couple of days until it happens. No, I just have a sore throat and runny nose and a bit of a headache and a fever. Fuck, let's play. Anyway, so back to your question. It was just good to be watching groups as they play. A spectator for me means two things. Out the back in front of the screen watching the live stream, which was fantastic, but also just wandering and watching all the games play in real time was just a lot of fun. It was just a really good atmosphere. So, you know, I've always said that, you know, InDisc is my favorite tournament because I love the community feel and the social aspect of it. That's what this had. This had that in spades. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that is. And here we are on the weekend, I don't want to say anniversary because it's not exactly a pleasant anniversary. It's been three years since we've had Pinberg, and people have watched that all disappear from their IFPA profiles. It's sad for sure, but that's what the pleasantry of Pinberg was. It was just, wow, I haven't seen this person in a long time. If you went to one tournament, if you had one vacation that was pinball-oriented, it was probably something like Pinberg, and people came from all over that you only saw maybe once a year. So it's nice that Brisbane had that too. I had a little bit of taste of that myself in Edmonton, kind of a Pinberg format. They did a group match play, so the same format, exact same. Four banks, groups of four. You play four games, 10 rounds, exactly like Pinberg. After day one, after you've played five rounds, 20 games, you get put in A, B, and C. They obviously didn't have the 1,000 people, but still lots of fun, lots of free play area. And people came from all over to this event in Edmonton, which isn't exactly an easy destination like a New York or an L.A. or Chicago. But everyone had a great time. So I would assume the same for Brisbane as well. How you can have the best possible time at a tournament is really down to how well it's run. And Jimmy Nails, I would say, is... And so Jason Lambert, those two, they're the ones that really run the event. Just put on the best show. I mean, obviously it compares with others. I'm not going to say it's better than Pinbird because Pinbird's a thousand players and it's a lot more complicated. But it just ran so well. So all the players had to do was just focus on playing well. So I just want to put my hats off to them because they just do a phenomenal event. Great machines, really good selection of machines, all in good condition. We'll talk about Dolly Parton at some stage. And the players just played their games, moved on, scores were updated really quickly. Actually, the only thing that was really funny was every time a new round would start, match play would crash because everyone was trying to access it at the same time. But besides that, I think that was probably the internet at the brewery, not MatchPlay itself. Yeah, it's cloud-based, so it shouldn't be that. And it depends on the format. Something like FlipFrenzy, only one person can enter that in the MatchPlay software. Okay, so I'm like you. I'm listening to this for the first time, and our three or four listeners are listening to this too. You teased us. What's with Dolly Parton? What's going on? Oh, it was just... Okay, a couple of things. first of all whenever i go into a location that's got a large amount of pinball machines i always look around and say to myself which machine or machines have i never played in my life right so it's very rare that there is a machine that i haven't played usually an old machine like brisbane masters is different because there were some brand new games or relatively new games that i didn't get to play yet but out of this and i think there might have been a hundred machines or so i don't know how many there were dolly parton was the only game i had never played it's a good ballet sure i'm i'm i'm sure it is it is no i'm i'm sure it is don't shit on it could be one of the next ones for haggis wait you guys are doing five ballet titles wait just let me finish all right i'm sure it is this particular one everybody had been talking about dolly parton you know how there's always that one game where everyone goes don't get on this particular game it is so fucking brutal okay dolly barton was brutal so i i finally got to have a just a flip of it and when i say flip of it i'm talking for three balls i probably had a flip of it outlanes center outlanes the whole thing it was nasty plunge better well okay sure plunge better so if you did did you do the same plunge every time no so did you soft plunge and come down the right spinner and then try to catch it on the right flipper i can't remember i just went you know what i just went i wasn't in a tournament so it didn't matter i just wanted to play it so i could tick it off and say okay i've now played the one game here that i've not played before yeah i did i went okay cool dolly parton great played it tough but i've played it so moving on i played it last night myself obviously not at brisbane masters but i played it and like a lot of people when they play it they try to try to knock down the inline targets to get your spinner lit, then 2x, and then up to 5x. But I've played on one. I can't remember where it was. This spinner was just ridiculously juiced. So we kind of changed our strategy because we're like, ooh. I mean, once you get that first inline target, the other ones can be maybe dangerous, maybe center drain, all that stuff. But the spinner was so good, we're like, you know what? We're going to get 40 rips off that. That's just as good as a multiplier. Let's do that. They didn't carry over? What the hell?
person
Ryan Wangerperson
Ryan C.person
Carlin Jacksonperson
Cindyperson
Brett Blackperson
Darren Lewisperson
Eric Stoneperson
Derek Thompsonperson
Keith Elwinperson
Zach Sharpeperson
Brisbane Mastersevent
Yagpinevent
Orion Seasevent
Haggiscompany
Sterncompany
  • ?

    competitive_signal: Ongoing tension in competitive community over IFPA scoring weighting toward time-intensive group play formats vs efficient Flip Frenzy formats; tournament directors divided on policy

    high · Extensive discussion of Josh's decision to weight 4-player groups at 2x TGP; Jeff's Tilt forum post revealed split opinion among TDs; Jeff's critique that time-weighting disadvantages operators and casual tournaments

  • ?

    competitive_signal: IFPA scoring system deliberately designed 8 years ago to preserve 4-player group tournaments after industry shift toward 2-player groups for efficiency

    medium · Jeff quotes Josh explaining historical context: 90% of tournaments moved to 2-player groups; 2x TGP weighting for 4-player groups was policy solution to preserve format

  • ?

    industry_signal: Tension between tournament efficiency (favoring venues/operators) and IFPA scoring incentives (favoring time-intensive formats); operators concerned about revenue loss from multi-hour tournaments

    medium · Jeff's discussion of how time-intensive tournaments hurt operators seeking coin-in; policy creates misalignment between venue economics and IFPA incentives

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeff Teolis (program/designer at major manufacturer) returning to competitive play despite previous burnout; using tournaments to maintain game design intuition

    high · Jeff explains he stopped playing due to win-loss pressure; returned for Orion Seas after 6-12 months focused on single game (Fathom); finished 5th; reports positive experience

  • ?

    product_strategy: Haggis is planning multiple ballet-themed pinball titles as part of product lineup

    medium · Martin's teasing reference to 'five ballet titles' from Haggis; appears to be internal knowledge shared with Jeff as co-designer/industry figure

  • ?

    venue_signal: Major tournaments standardizing on lightning flipper installation for all modern games as best practice for consistency and wear management

    medium · Yagpin notes 'lightning flippers on every single modern game'; Jeff mentions adjustment period but treats as positive standard

  • ?

    content_signal: Final Round Pinball Podcast undergoing production changes; new editor (Martin) taking on editing duties this episode; hosts discuss heavy post-production editing despite seemingly conversational format

    high · Martin's multiple edits reference; discussion of voice cracks, stuttering, multiple takes, and careful editing to polish raw content

    • 13:06
    Fun game. Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't want to sort of say that the The whole tournament was all about Dolly Parton. It's just noting that as an honourable mention of, like when you go to Papa, or when you go to any of those pinbooks, there's always that one or two games that everybody knows is really, really difficult. And I think when I went to Papa, for Papa 20, it was the Attack from Mars that was in the finals. That particular one is notorious for being really difficult. And I know that the F-14 Tomcat is known as being pretty brutal. I'm just saying it's one of those. But anyway, the event itself was great. A couple of upsets. The main one being Escher Lefkoff, who bowed out, I want to say, in quarters. It wasn't like it was a rollover. It was still competitive, but he didn't get through. I mean, spoiler, everyone should know by now that Stephen Bowden won. But that came down to the last game, which was on Lost in Space. And he was not that far ahead. and Tony Cirillo from Western Australia, all he had to do was get the right orbit and for the life of him, he couldn't post-pass from the right flipper to the left and didn't get the shot. Again, it's one of those moments where everybody's watching, everybody's just rallying behind him, come on, mate, just get it, and it didn't happen and it was just this loud, whoa, oh my God, and then everyone talked about it. It was just good that he was, that's what I refer to as the underdog. He was the underdog that got to the final against Stephen Bowden, but Stephen Bowden was victorious in the end. Did anybody from Australia win any of the events? Because we saw what happened last time. What happened in 2022? Yes, there were, but I think the majority of them were won by Americans. So thanks again. The good old borders being opened. I have to get there. I'm just bugging Dr. John. Okay. There's the thing, too. I like the idea of the event. Trust me, I love the idea of pinball almost every day. We're about to do it at the C&E in Toronto in mid-August. But when I come to somewhere like Australia, especially Queensland, I would like to see other things. So maybe I would come and just do four or five days, but then I'd kick myself in the butt going, oh, I'm missing this tournament. But still, it sounds like a good time. Yeah, it was a great time. In the end, I kind of was glad that I didn't play in the tournament, but I kind of felt somewhat missing tournaments. well are you going to get back into them because we talked about the stern hires of recent years you know Zach Sharp, Keith Elwin, Raymond Davidson Tim Sexton people that play a lot and play very well and they're designing games marketing games, programming games you are a very good player who just doesn't play that much will that not help you with your current job of programming by playing in more tournaments Well, yes and no, but I played in a tournament on Friday night. What? Orion Seas? Orion Seas. With Ryan Wanger? Correct. Okay, I don't know, but I knew the tournament was happening. Tell me what happened. So it was. I knew that it was on, and it was on Friday, and I went, you know what? There is an itch that needs to be scratched. Obviously, there's an anointment for that. And that's what Ryan's there for. He's a great scratcher. He really is. So I just contacted Ryan and said, look, are there any spots open? He said, yes. Some people have pulled out because of COVID, Ian. Wow. So I went. Do you want to know how I went? No. Okay, cool. Moving on. Okay. So I was at a – oh, go ahead. I know you're dying to tell me. Tell me how you did. So it was seven rounds of match play. Four-player groups. Four-player groups, one game per round. And first game, I can't even remember what machine I was on. Yeah, it was ACDC. I came third. Okay. Then the next game, I came fourth. So because it was Swiss pairings, I was now, I was... At the bottom. I was third bottom of 36 players. Sandbagging. Well, and everyone was like, oh, I see what you're doing. You're going to, you know, and I went, no. The problem was I really have only played one game for the last six to 12 months. One game. Yep. And that's Fathom. So all my muscle memory is based on that one game. So all these flipper things that I was doing, it's just draining the ball because I just did not remember how to play these games. After round two, I was third from the bottom. Boy. Then I got a second, a first, a first, a second, and a first. And I finished fifth in qualifying and top eight got through. Okay. So you're in the playoffs. I'm in the playoffs. Who else was in the playoffs that I know? Ryan. Sure. No? I'm just trying to remember the names. Ryan C., Ryan Wanger? Ryan C., Ryan Wanger. Carlin Jackson was there. Cindy was there. Also from the US. People. I should remember. What happened in the playoffs? You're fifth, so you're in a group with the first person, the fourth, and the eighth. What happened? Sorry, it was Brett Black. Cindy was there. Darren Lewis and John Eberger are probably the missing names there. This was obviously four players per group. Yeah, three games. and I've got to try and remember what games we played. Anyway, it came down to the... Tron was the last game. Oh, Godzilla was one of them. Played terribly. Cheetah was another one. Played terribly. And then Tron, where... So I got a last, a last, and then a first. So I was out. Ryan actually had to get in between Carlin and me for me to be able to get through and it didn't happen. So thank you Ryan for letting everybody down I ended up becoming fifth right overall That pretty good for your first tournament in a while I was really happy In fact when we got to the top eight and Ryan like oh are you going to play? And I'm like, no, I think I'm going to forfeit. I don't really want to play in the finals because I was just happy where I ended up. I didn't really need to do anymore. I was doing a Keith Elwin. No, not really.
    19:11
    You wish. But when I said I was going to forfeit, all these people just went, what? No, you can't do that. I went, oh, shit. Oh, fuck. Have I just killed someone's family or something? So I ended up playing. Wait till later in the program.
    19:25
    Okay. So there you go. I had fun, and it scratched the itch. Do I want to play more? Maybe. No, not really. What don't you like about tournaments now? it's what made me stop in the first place and we've talked about this, it's the whole win-lose thing you're either the winner or you're one of the many losers and for all the pressure some people love that environment some people love doing their best after a while I just started getting a bit fatigued by feeling shit at my performance so I didn't need it but I had a good time You may see me. At least I'm now not ruling it out. I actually had a great time. And the revelation is I started liking Godzilla. What, what, what, what, what? Hmm. Send this to Keith right away. What changed your mind? Because it's not intuitive by any means, and that was one of the things you didn't like about it. No, but because obviously Ryan listens to the podcast and he knows exactly what I say. so he just said hey i know you're confused with this game but all you got to do is this and and he said and i just went oh okay that makes sense all that added complexity that it's got all the flashing lights that are indicating something else i could ignore those now i can just get my shots to light because i didn't do what i didn't even know how to light multi-ball you know what i mean i didn't know because i really have only played it a couple times but that's all I need to know that how to start modes get multi-ball that's it and once I knew that I was like okay good I've got clarity amongst all this noise and it worked okay I still think the shots are fun they're unique I was starting to enjoy the shots well I still don't enjoy flop flippers and in fact I was having a go at Ryan all night because just about every game that he has got at his house all have the flippers dropped down a bit. It drives me nuts. The only thing I can say I absolutely hate about Godzilla, and there is one thing I hate about Godzilla. Sorry, Keith. I love the game. Is that the designer? No, no, that's no, no. I hate the right out lane. You can go up the right in lane, hit the saucer, kiss your ball goodbye. or sometimes it will just sling into above the in lane out lane past the saucer and come a little bit up the i don't even know what you want to call that basically where the plunger goes over and again there goes your ball goodbye and there's no way of saving it i know what you're saying there's it's it's quite unreliable in that whole area you feel like you've got less control to save the bowl over there. Yeah, but still enjoy playing the game. I have one on order, so I must love it, and I'm sure I'll love it even more once I have it in my grubby little hands. Did get to play a little bit of it. Switching to Edmonton, Yagpin again. So they had, again, the big group match play event, Pinberg style. That was the first two days. They had a knockout tournament, which was three days of qualifying on Classics Machines, and a lot of money raised for, I'm not sure which cancer charity it was, but they've done very well over the years with that. And then they had a women's tournament, they had a youth tournament, and they had a, I guess you'd call it a high stakes. They called it the pro tournament. So that was fun. And boy, did I fuck that up. I thought, I'm going to put one more entry in. Just stop thinking about what I need. Just play good pinball. Five games needed on the ticket. first four games were fucking spectacular do you think i could put together even 30 million on batman 66 oh how could you not well i found a way kid i did plunge the skill shot didn't even make it to the top in lanes i'm like this isn't going well there goes uh that and just uh couldn't get it going so i was like oh maybe it was just nervous didn't make it so i finished 18th top 16 get in. Do you feel the pressure because you've got four good games and you've got to get that last good game? I guess. I have no idea.
    23:46
    I'm pretty impressed when I can put four out of five good games in. Anyway, great players. A lot of it was done on stream on Die Hard Pinball. Derek Thompson, this guy has worked so hard and it's not just him. It's Jordan. It's Ty on the stream. It's all these wonderful people. 70 volunteers. You talk about the experience at Brisbane Masters. That's really why we loved Pinball. why we like InDisc. That's why people loved Yagpin is because it was a good experience. They certainly had everything covered, no stone unturned, and you could just see people from all over really enjoy this. Eric Stone won it. He came from Florida. Jim Belcedo was there. We had people from California, from Utah. We had from Texas. Robert Byers was there, and again, from all over. So that was very nice to see Yagpin. So mark that on your calendar. next year. It will not be the same time as Brisbane Masters. That was just kind of how we could get it in this year, but they're going to probably move the date. So keep an eye for that one, just as you should for Brisbane Masters. But it was fun. They had Godzilla. Most of the games too, especially the new games, they had lightning flippers on every single modern game. So that took a little while to get used to, but it's good. You've got to do things like this in pump and dumps and a lot of tournaments so that you don't play over and over and over again, which is, please forgive me for saying because the most important factor in IFPA from what I've come to learn over the last few weeks is it's not how many games you play. It's how long it takes to play them. That is worth everything because, Marty, if you were to play 25 games and it took you three hours, well, that is stupid. That is too efficient. It's ridiculous. You need to play those 25 games over six, maybe seven hours. Even if you're waiting in queue for three of those hours, that is how you get points in IFPA. How could you play 25 games in three hours? Well, there is a format. It's a terrible format from everything I understand. It's a goofy format. It's the dumbest format ever. Some people call it pinball, pinball, pinball. Others call it a flip frenzy. And it's apparently just, thank goodness it's being nerfed because it's the abomination of competitive pinball. Go fuck yourself. It is like hell.
    25:59
    So, just to let you know, Josh and I, back and forth, several times. And I just said to him, I think you put too much value on time spent playing.
    26:12
    And he said, well, and this is what he told me. By the way, he told me to post on Tilt forums to see what kind of feedback I would get. I fucking knew what kind of feedback I was going to get. I'm going on a forum that's built for tournament players and a lot of the tournament directors and the state directors and provincial directors all were against this. And I've talked to three of them since. And each one of them said, yeah, I never thought about that. Anyway, so yeah, did I get the feedback I want? No, and I also didn't give a shit either. But Josh, tell me why, why, why these flip frenzies are so horrible. And he said, quite simply, they are too efficient. His exact words, too efficient. He gave me a backstory because I said, what do you mean too efficient? Well, you can get to 25 games in three hours. I go, what the fuck's wrong with that? And he told me what happened eight years ago. So let me give you a little history lesson because it was a history lesson for me too. I wasn't playing competitive pinball back then. A while back, and this is eight years ago, a lot of tournaments were switching from four-player groups to two-player groups because they realized that it took too long to play a four-player group. So Josh, and I'm fine with him doing this. This is why he did it. Listen, we all subscribe to IFPA. You play in there, you don't. So this is why he made the move. He didn't want to see four-player groups disappear because they were fun. And so they decided at that point a four-player group would be worth two TGP, two times, to avoid seeing all these tournaments switch to two-player groups. And that's, I guess, what happened. I don't have the data, but I certainly believe he was telling me the truth. He said 90% of the tournaments were all two-player groups. He didn't want to see that disappear. Okay, that's a solution. But eight years later, it has created a problem because you've put too much emphasis on time. and he doesn't want to see these tournaments, these pump and dumps or these group match play things disappear. Well, they take too long. And again, there are lots of reasons mentioned on the last episode, on this episode too, that you could be hurting certainly operators who want to see coins go into machines because they don't have the six, seven hours. Fun tournaments. Now, fun tournaments don't have to be IFPA. You can still do flip frenzies, all that kind of good stuff. But it's funny. Some of those people on Tilt forums that said, oh, this is a goofy format and all that stuff. I reached out to them privately. I'm like, oh, I didn't know you played in one. Certain people said, oh, I've never played in one, but they just wanted a bitch. So, ha-ha, good jokes, funny. I guess that's how you make a joke. Fuck, one of these days I'll learn, eh, Marty? One of these days, one of these days. That's why it didn't happen for you. Yeah, it didn't happen. You know why son asked me today? Watching some comics. He's like, Dad, why didn't you ever do stand-up comedy? I'm like, did fucking Marty call you?
    28:48
    Go to your room. No, I told him why, but it's not good enough for the show or you or anybody. So just continue the jokes, Marty. Continue the jokes. So when you said you told him why, did you tell him that because you weren't good enough, your material wasn't that good? I just want to know whether you told him the truth. No, I didn't tell him that version of the truth. You do know the reason, right? Don't you? You do? Tell me why you... Dude, go ahead. Go ahead. Without being funny, why didn't I do it? Be honest. because it's hard work. It's a hard slog and you probably just got better work elsewhere. I don't know. You're half right. The last part. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I had a fucking career in radio that I'm still doing 30 years later. What am I going to give that up for a fucking chance at making some jokes when I've got a pretty good life and living and all that kind of stuff from doing this radio stuff? Why would I give that up? But listen to me. If I didn't have radio, 100% I would have thrown both feet in there. For sure. But I was like, fuck, do I really do this? That's a good reason. It is a good and valid reason. Not good for comedy purposes for me to be able to take the piss out of you. You know what I mean?
    29:59
    You're editing this week. Cut all that out. I might just do that. You might, because you're doing it. So, Yagpin, you would say, great tournament, by the way. Yeah, really well done. Really well done. 70 volunteers. I mean, they had full-time techs and TDs CDs and again, the streaming was wonderful. Lots of people doing that and it looked really good. They had a big stage like Pinberg as well. Carl did a special software on neverdrains.com. Speaking of Carl, did you see the in-disc dates, January 12th to 15th? I know you like that tournament. Oh my God, I do. Think about it. Yeah, I'm thinking about it. Don't you worry. Are you? We haven't talked. I hope you are. No, I'm always thinking about it. Whether it's going to happen or not, I don't know. But it's one of those things where I just have such fond memories because it was. Indisc was my first US tournament. I've done it twice. I mean, obviously, it's now in a different location. But I just remember, you know, going to Palm Springs, driving from LA to Palm Springs, you know, stopping at the outlet malls, of course, but then going to Banning to that and meeting great people. It was just an overall great experience slash holiday. Do it. Oh, do you know what? One thing I forgot to mention, going back to Brisbane Masters, if you don't mind. Sure. Is I got to play some new games. And I just want to preface this by saying that I have said something to Jeff offline that I said I wouldn't ever let anybody know. Uh-oh. But I am actually now going to say it on this podcast. Yeah, but you're going to edit it out. So you're going to say it now. I'm going to be teased. I'm going to listen back and go, that fucker took that out. No, he's what I'm going to say. I got to play Legends of Valhalla for the first time from American Pinball. And it's a great game. I actually really enjoyed it. But what really impressed me the most, and I had to reach out to Jeff to say, hang on, are you the main narrator, the main voice in this game? And he said, yes. And I'm like, holy crap, it's really good. The call-outs are fantastic. And I couldn't tell it was you, which was the big real shock. And that's why I had to ask because maybe because I thought, these callouts are really good. Are you sure they're you?
    32:19
    That is the nicest compliment you could ever give when it says it doesn't sound like you. That's because I'm not trying to sound like me. And I was listening. I was standing there watching somebody else play just only listening for the callouts to just hear at a boot. But no, it just doesn't sound like you at all. But not just that. That's not what's good about it. Just the texture of your voice, the intonation, the cadence, everything that you've done is just absolutely great for that theme. It's perfect. Love it. Well done. All credit to Matt Kern. He is the sound engineer for American Pinball that did that, and of course what Scott and Frank did. I think they had a lot to do with the script. So really, I was the trained monkey who did everything those guys said. So thanks very much. And kudos back to you because, funny enough, at Yagpin in the free play area, they had two Valhalla machines. And right in between was Fathom Revisited. So I got to play it. And we did upgrade the code after I showed you a few things. Oh, great. But you want to talk about fucking looking at it and sounds and playing. And I know how much time you said you told me in this, I think you've said it on this program, but certainly off air, just dialing in the flippers to get them feel just right. You can tell that whatever time it took, it was well paid off because that thing was by far the biggest showstopper there. Just, again, the different displays, the colors. I don't really understand, and I only got to play it maybe three times. I don't understand your code yet, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. The mermaids and the rescue and the hurry-ups and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't care either. Kind of like when you play a pinball machine, I just want to hit shots and maybe kind of figure things out. It helped that on the apron, you could see what you had to do and the oxygen. I thought that was pretty cool. So that was in that whatever game that was or mode. Yeah, that's the Mermaid in Battles. Yeah, that was kind of neat. That's a great game. I mean, anybody who loved Fathom, you're going to go nuts when you see this version. And I know we're seeing a lot more of them here in North America, I assume in Australia and Europe and everywhere else too. So fun to play, buddy. Good job. congrats thank you but actually funny should mention that as well there was a scoring bug i don't know if you're aware of this controversy that happened in the business masters but yeah there was a scoring bug that was found in the mermaid and battles so this was on saturday it was found interesting we got back to the hotel room at 11 o'clock reached out to greg silby and said hey there's a scoring bug the next morning we had the new code unfortunately we didn't have enough time to play test it you know it's pretty risky to put new code in a game that's in playoffs a tournament bank yeah so so we didn't do that but there was a particular round where somebody knew of the the bug and somebody didn't and it was considered unfair so they had to avoid that game and then move on to a different game yeah i mean stuff happens uh that's how you're going to find out things at tournament the good thing is that game wasn't a tournament so you can find these things out because I remember the first time I think it was Jurassic Park was in a tournament. I remember they put it in the C&E tournament years ago and Alan said, that game's not tournament ready yet. And it was maybe two weeks after it was released and he's like, yeah. So I don't think we found any bugs but he wasn't crazy. I mean eventually, yeah, you want that in just like you'd want Fathom in but you know, we've got to figure we've got to let people play it a little more to figure all that stuff out before it goes in tournaments. People rush to get the new ones in. Yeah, of course. Well, look, we had done a lot of testing for functionality and gameplay, making sure all the modes and everything all work. We had done some tournament testing, but really had not extensively tested it to get it tournament ready. We thought it would be fine. But when you find that one bug, good thing. We've always got Greg Silby on hand to code overnight. Right. So. Okay. I heard two stories about Brisbane Masters and you're telling me something different. So obviously what you're telling me is the truth. I thought when they found out the bug, they said, okay, everybody, this is the bug. It's the same for everyone. It wasn't like a random bug. Those are the worst bugs. This wasn't a bug. This is more of an exploit, isn't it? Yeah, it was. It turns out not everybody did know about it. Oh, wait till you play Johnny Mnemonic in a tournament. I mean, everyone now has the Kaylee bug that he exploited at, I guess it was District 82. dropping the glove or whatever it was. Yeah, I mean, these things happen. But look, the other thing, and I spent a lot of time just observing the game as well because there's all the different scenarios that I've seen by playing it, but I'm not going to see everything. And by watching it being played so much, we're talking 15 hours a day, you get to see everything. So I took a lot of notes already in the new code. I'm testing it tomorrow when I get back to work and yeah, we move forward. but also okay so other games i got to play i got to play toy story 4 so did i yeah what do you think it's beautiful yeah it's stunning it's it looks good i'm not a fan of the music and just the carnival music gets to me a little bit but i love the call outs i don't want to say i don't like the sound i just don't like that carnival music over and over again and i have a feeling because that's a common complaint they'll probably dial that back a little bit and and maybe put something else in there but it shot really nice I didn see any kind of big concerns It an easy playing game for somebody of perhaps my caliber but that doesn make it a bad game I saw a lot of people playing it, a lot of people enjoying it. Looks pretty good to me. I can't, again, there are certain games that I wouldn't purchase. I would purchase several Jersey Jack games. That one, based on the shots, I would say probably not, but that doesn't mean I, just because I don't want to purchase it i'd play it i have no problem playing it i'm the same wouldn't be in my my collection but if it was in my collection i'd probably still be happy there's just others that i would have ahead of it yeah it is beautiful that giant ipad is giant it's massive it's big um did you know what you were doing in the game no no not not at all no not at all but i didn't matter that's after what two plays i only played it twice too so i didn't really care but remember But when you step up to Wizard of Oz for the first time, you've got no idea what you're shooting for. And the joy is going through the journey of discovery, of working out what these things are. Yeah, that's true. Oh, by the way, I screwed up last week. We had somebody call me out when I talked about the Duke Nukem ramp. Well, Duke Nukem is a video game character. How dare I screw up Keanu Reeves and Duke Kaboom. It was the Duke Kaboom ramp. Oh, yes, it is. That's a good shot. That's fun. Yeah, it is pretty cool. It's fun. You know what? I had fun playing it. Let me tell you what was probably the most fun game that I played that I'd not played before of the new game variety. Can I guess? Yes. Is it a Stern game? I want three yes or no questions. Okay, first question. No, it's not. It's not a Stern game. Nope. And it's one we haven't talked about because you already mentioned you like playing Valhalla. That's right. So it's one we haven't played. That's not a question. I'm just talking out loud. You jumped in. I'm talking out loud. I'm talking out loud as well. You said it's a newer game. And newer could be anything from 2020 on. Yeah, pretty much.
    39:47
    So I know you've already played GNR, so I'm taking out Jersey Jack. Newer games. Well, it's going to be either Alien or something from Spooky. I will use one of my yes or no questions. Is it from Spooky? No. Okay. But Big Lebowski's been around forever. It's not Big Lebowski. I was talking out loud again.
    40:09
    Who the fuck am I missing? It's not that you're missing a manufacturer. It's a game from a manufacturer you've already mentioned. What the what?
    40:19
    Okay, I give up. What is it? Hot Wheels. Oh, yeah. It's good. That's a fun game. Have you never played it? I've never played it. See, that's old. But it's still new for me. Yeah, I guess so. Well, you did say since 2020. So is that 2019, though? No, it came out in 2020. Yeah, that's right. I don't remember. It's OK. It's fun. What I was really surprised about is how flat it is. I think it's got one ramp. Again, I mean, look, obviously, I talk about Kelts because Kelts has no ramps, but it's still lots of fun without ramps. Ramps are overrated. I said it. I love ramps. Don't worry. I don't think they're overrated. but I think you can be successful without them. Yes, you can. Hot Wheels, flow, flow, flow. It, oh, loved it. And I love the rule set. I think the rule set was really intuitive. So it's one of those things where, I mean, I don't love the theme. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I don't know how to score properly. I know the skill shot is extremely important. I know RPM is massive when you get that red line mania and all that kind of stuff. But see, there's the difference right there. You're saying, oh, I don't know how to score properly. I'm not interested in score. My thoughts are, how do I get through the game? Because I always feel the further I get through the game, the more my points should be. But it tells you enough and it shows you enough for you to be able to progress through the game. See, I play so many competitions. I don't think that way. I probably should. No, I know. And that's what I'm saying. That's not a positive or a negative. It's just we've just got a very different outlook when we're going to a game. and that was my philosophy with Fathom doing the revisited rules is I'm thinking more so how am I going to make a person feel good getting through this game? How am I going to communicate to them how do they get through the game via the screens and via the call-outs and light shows? And we then put the scores to it. I think it's good. I like the visuals and the Hot Wheels. I like the animations. Yeah, it's pretty well lit. I want to play more. I've only played it in competition. I want to play it for fun. So that's a good sign. Yeah, I only played it for fun. and I had a lot of fun. Can you let everyone know, just remind everybody, I've seen a lot of people get Fathom. Oh, I'm sick of hearing Marty's voice. Look, so am I. I do a podcast with him, but it's not him on Fathom, is it? Do you know what? It's so funny because I can't tell you. Well, there's a lot of comments, but the main comment that people said when they came up to me was, hey, what's the next game you're doing? Besides that. It's Dolly Parton. the main thing people said was i love the call outs that you've done in the game i'm like they're not me and two people that i've known there's a lot of people up there that i've known for a very long time but i'm just going to call out stu thornton and stacy borg known them for years they've known me for years we have spoken in person for years stu thornton was like nah i know it's not you stacy borg was like bullshit that is you in the game i'm like i'm not and he would not believe me that it's me i end up having to show him a photo of the guy his name's zeke ezekiel ox hey guys check out his band they're called mammal and if you liked rage against the machine you'll love this band mammal he is a freaking awesome guy i showed him a photo of him recording the callouts in the studio it's not me but i did say that what you've got to understand is that i was in the studio with him and i was producing him i was directing him so i'm saying hey when you say this you've got to say it like this ball save is activated turns out he's saying it exactly how i would say it and maybe we don't have a dissimilar voice maybe so it does sound i i can kind of tell that it sounds a bit like me, but I'm telling you now, it is 100% not me. There is not a single call out from me in that game. Well, you know, especially in 2022, I'm absolutely against any type of stereotyping, but I will say this. Every Australian male sounds the same. Every single one of you.
    44:24
    For sure. You say Maccas the same way, you say cunt the same way, you say it all. Although Stacey Morgan does have a different voice. He loves when I make fun of Stacey Morgan. I know he does. I don't know. But the good news is, I've put new rules in there and new modes. I don't know to call him back in for call-outs. I'm just going to do the new call-outs and see if people notice. Oh, he's getting in there. Yeah, yeah. See if people notice now. You know two games I voiced. One never saw the light of day, right? You know that, right? Yeah, Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, yep. Do you know there was another one I voiced that kind of didn't see the light of day, but it might kind of be on software somewhere for certain people? Do you know that one? No. I say no, but I feel like maybe I did know, but no, I can't think of it. I also said no to two. Look at you turning back work. Well. I'll let you know about one. I'll tell you why. I won't tell you who. I was asked to do an accent, and I said no. Get a person who speaks that language to do that. I'm not doing that. Not in 2022. 10 years ago, I might have been stupid and done something like that, but new. so when I do Odin it's because I happen to be a Norse god that's the only reason I did it but there was another one I voiced and we had a guest on our show that one time revealed that I did the voice and I think it went over your head so fuck we'll say it now that's why I'm thinking I feel I do know this but I can't remember the details so please tell me, tell everybody I actually voiced some lines for Rick and Morty so what happened was I can say this now. Fuck, it's well after the fact. Sure. Spooky loved it. It was a specific episode.
    46:10
    Did I tell you this? Yeah, it's coming back to me. I'll leave the episode out because I don't want to get anyone in shit. They made a special mode that was going to be in every game, and they sent it to Adult Swim. Adult Swim said... Yes, you did tell me this. They said it's great. Fucking perfect. Let's just get Warner Brothers to check it out. Warner Brothers said... Fuck, I hope I'm not in shit for saying this. No, it's well past. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. No one cares. It doesn't matter. Listen, I don't break NDAs. I fucking didn't even sign one for this. They said we can't do it because it's too violent.
    46:44
    It's too violent. Everyone's like, you do realize what this show is about, right? They thought it was too violent. So they said, yeah, not the voice. The mode was too violent. Yeah, you have told me this. I can't remember. And you've told me the specifics of the mode, and I can't remember what they are. So you'll have to remind me offline. I only bring it up because I had never seen that episode. In fact, I had seen maybe three episodes in my life, so I had to get up to speed to get the characters, blah, blah, blah. Now I'm watching the show. So we just watched the Pickle Rick episode, season three, episode three. Had you not seen that before? No, I mean, I knew all about it, but I didn't know. Oh, my God. It's great. And my son's like, this actually divided the Rick and Morty fans. I'm like, what? And he said, yeah, because some people thought that was the episode they jumped the shark. And I said, this is a brilliant episode. Think of the overlying theme. Like every week they get into a pickle. So you can imagine the writers room, they're saying, what kind of pickle will Rick get into this time? Hey, that's a funny thing. I thought it was brilliant. And now he just demolished. Oh, it was awesome. Interesting you say that. I wouldn't say, like when you say jump the shark, obviously they're talking about the Fonz in Happy Days where he literally jumped a shark. And what they were saying was that was such a low point in the show, it could never recover. It's when shows jump to shark, that's it. Like, okay, you're running out of shit. You've gone downhill. I think it's a similar but different way in that I think that Pickle Rick was its peak and it's never been able to be able to match that level of awesomeness. I'm only on season three, episode four, so I've got the rest of season three, season four, and season five to watch and I'm enjoying it. We're getting a good kick out of the show. So I'm late to the party. I bring that up because you're talking about playing games you've never played before. Jim Belcedo and I, we were looking at the banks at Yagpin. And I don't know how many different banks there were. Let's say there's 16. We looked at the one bank and I said, you know, round 10 when it matters, we're playing that bank. Because look at how freaking hard these games are. Here's the easy game. 8-Ball Deluxe. We all know how to play it. You can go over targets. You can get the inline drops. You can go up the left orbit, get to 70,000. Lots of ways to play it. We all know how to do that. That was the easy game in the bank. The modern game was Rick and Morty. I'm like, this will be the first time I've ever played it in competition and second time playing it ever. I had a couple flips at Texas Pinball Festival, but really just that. No idea what the hell to do. So that was in the bank. An EM, how many people know this EM game? Have you ever heard of Strange World? No. Strange World. I think they made 300 of these. By the way, there were two in our league. And so I did know that game. It's a really, really tough game. And the other modern solid state game we had to play, never played it before, never seen it before. Have you ever played this? Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, I have. You've played it? Yeah. Okay, so I'm reading it. It's a weird layout. Well, it's like, you know, Hardbody where you've got the other buttons to kind of save your outlanes? Yeah. Outlanes kind of come up. It's got that. That's fine. I'm used to playing Hardbody, so that's no big deal. But from what everyone told me is, okay, shoot the far right side. Get up those drops, wherever there's a million shot there, that's the whole game. It's unbalanced, that's the whole game. Good point, but this flipper was set to not hit that. So it didn't matter how hard you hit it. So, all right, I actually got lucky and won the game, but had no idea what to do. And we both said, that'll be our last bank. It was both of our last banks when the shit was on the line. And what happened? Out of 12 points, I got seven to make it qualify eighth overall and make it nay. But top four got buys. But still, I was nervous. You know, you shit the bed on that, you might not make it. So there you go. Crazy Bank, certainly an interesting game with Dungeons & Dragons. Yeah. You very rarely, rarely see that game. Weird cab, too. It's not a flat cab. Have you ever noticed that bottom of it? No, I haven't. It's flat near the front legs, and then it goes on like a 40-degree angle up. So interesting design. What else you got? Do you want me to read from your list of notes that you sent me and make it sound like I'm saying it off the top of my head? And hey, talk to me about the Stern Heads Up Pinball Invitational. Ah, yes. Did you see they announced that? Yes. Have you watched the teaser video? No. Well, they show who's in it. Do you want to guess? Who have we got? Are they all from Chicago again? Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
    51:08
    Let's clarify this right now. I love Stern Pinball. Who doesn't? The mothership. Great games. Love the Stern Army. Love all the different things they do. very very generous like fuck they're giving away a pinball machine that's awesome i really feel unfortunate for this event because it is going to get some bad feedback i'm afraid it's going to be visually something to watch you know maybe they'll pack it up and it'll be on espn the ocho it won't be because it's airing after the ocho it's a lot of great production love a moto i think tim does a great job we'll see rebecca on the stream but we're gonna see eight people from chicago again And what bothers me about that, and it does bother me, is that not too long ago, they asked for auditions. If you want to be on the upcoming Stern Heads Up Invitational, send us your audition tape. Now, they did that. COVID happened. Okay, cut you some slack. You can't do that. You've got to be safe and all that stuff. It's now been a year since we've been open up. Certainly, as far as pinball is concerned, probably 10 months since the borders are opened up. And you're not only using eight people from Chicago. You're using a lot of the same people. Somebody in this tournament has been in it four times. Another person, three times. A few others, two times. Marty, do you think Haggis would ever do... Let's say Haggis does this. Haggis is doing a Fathom heads-up invitational. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, gotcha. Would you keep it to people in Melbourne for logistics? I understand why, sure. Costs and all that. Do you know what? For the first one, yes, I would for logistics. This is the fourth one. So let's say you did four. Would you do the fourth one for that? COVID's over? I know what you're saying. And on the surface, sure, I get what you're saying. It really depends on how long it takes for this to get... Because we look at the tournament and we go, okay, it airs for two hours, therefore there's only two hours of filming. This thing could have happened over two weeks for all we know. Probably airs only an hour at most. Sure. But, you know, it's a production. Like, it's Stern's professional production. So it might be that, you know, People have to be available to be filming for two weeks for this one-hour segment. I don't know how complicated it is to put together. I mean, we just see the end result, which looks pretty slick, but I assume that there's a lot more that goes into it, and it's probably easier to have people local because you can call them in at short notice and get them back for reruns and do their little sort of vignettes and all that kind of stuff. But you realize the way they film it, it's not a true heads-up challenge because they're all filming it individually and they're doing, in this case, I think five challenges. I don't even know if that's a number. I don't even care if it's a number. They can do five, they can do eight challenges, whatever. The quote-unquote random generator will pit them up against two of the same things. That is also, hey, calling it like it's been said. It's questionable. Yeah, look, as I said, on the surface, I see that argument as well. I kind of try to put myself into, if I was going to be doing a production like that, how complicated it would be. And I would imagine it's quite complicated. And it would be much easier to have local people just because they need to be on call back in and out multiple times. That's all I would say. You think that would answer the complaints, if there are any? I don't know. I mean, are there lots of complaints everywhere? Well, okay, answer this. What happened to those audition tapes? I don't know. What was the point? If you're worried about production being a problem, we have to call people back. Why did you ask us for submissions from all over North America? I don't know whether that is the reason, so you can't necessarily give a counter to a hypothetical, you know, I don't know. Why are you using the same people? Also, I don't know. I need an answer. Sorry, I'm calling you.
    54:50
    Maybe the audition tapes that came through were shit, and they've gone, oh, you know what? We cannot use these people. They're terrible, so we just have to go back to these other people because they're great on camera, and it'll work. They're putting a production together. This is like reality TV. I mean, you know, you know, when they do their cutaways to those people, they're like, oh, you know, I'm up against so and so. I was like, you didn't know that. You just it's it's not real. It's not real. Would you use your own employees? No. Why? Because my employees would be part of the production team.
    55:24
    Well, they have. OK, who have they used? There was a model in the last one. And I don't know what his stern. I don't even know the guy is a young guy. Very nice man. I don't think I've ever met him, but he was an employee for Stern. In this new one, you'll see Josh Sharp play. I would say that could be a conflict of interest. He's not an employee for Stern. He has an NDA with Stern. His brother's the head of marketing. Okay, I'm just going to stop you there. I'm just going to stop you there, right there. Josh Sharp makes fucking great TV. Yes. So I don't care if he was sleeping with Gary Stern. It's not proven, but it's likely. But I don't care. Josh Sharp is fantastic to watch. Not only to watch him play and all the carry-on that he goes with, his screaming and yelling and all that sort of bullshit and playing on one leg, whatever. His cutaways will be very funny and very good as well. That for me right there. If you look at the initial production meeting, they're going, right we going to do our fourth Stern Heads Up International Tournament whatever it is right We need to make this the most enjoyable one hour of viewing that anybody can have If that's your first mission statement, you would put Josh up in there, 100%. I don't argue with what you said. I think they're open for some criticism there. When you already get the staff discount on buying machines and you're trying to give one away. No, I guess because it is a competition and there's a pinball machine, there's prize money, whatever it is, I get that that's a bit of a conflict and people might not find that palatable. But if it comes back to what is the purpose of this video? This purpose, the purpose of what I believe the purpose of this video is. Production. It is production, but it is to produce an hour-long piece of competition footage around pinball that is easily palatable, that anybody can watch and be entertained by. So it's not the best players. It's not the fairest bunch of people. It is who is going to make this enjoyable because that's what promotes pinball. That is, why would Stern be doing this otherwise? They are only doing it for marketing and PR purposes. They have to be. And with that lens on, you would put the people on camera that would represent the brand and make it entertaining. That's what you're going to look at. So when you get all these audition tapes, you've got to be thinking to yourself, and I know this because I've followed so many reality TV shows, through the auditioning process, they put all these people together, they see who's going to bounce off each other, who's got a personality that works in front of the camera, who can ad lib, who can riff, who's really interesting, who lights up the camera. That's what they're looking for, not who's going to be the fairest competition. That's not what it's about. I agree with everything you're saying. Good. Let's move on. No, I absolutely do. I'm just saying, how do they avoid the criticism? Because we like that Stern is doing this. We like that Stern is giving away a fucking pinball machine. And this is the fourth time they've done it. And they do it at other events too, like Indisc and IFPA and other events that they've done. They've had their own heads-up invitationals at the Stern Pro Circuit. So thank you, Stern, for doing this. But is that explanation, which I agree, it is going to be entertaining. How are you going to piece off everyone who's going to be like, well, you don't. Where's my audition tape? Why is it always Chicago? Why not just give eight fucking people from Chicago a pinball machine and stop teasing us with this? Okay. How many pieces of criticism do you think Stern gets a week? Yeah, I guess. You know what I mean? Like they get it all the time. They're probably just very thick skinned and immune to all that criticism. and they look at it and go, yeah, we're going to get criticized for this, but we're going to get great exposure. We're going to promote pinball, so that's what's better. This is my point. This criticism that I think is going to happen is unfortunate because what they're doing is awesome. They are giving away a pinball machine, and they're putting together a great promo piece. And by the way, and I've said this to Josh for years, the Heads Up tournament is the greatest thing to watch visually. we always talk about these pinball tournaments. I mean, the diehards will sit for four and a half hours and watch Escher play Keith at IFPA 17. But that's only the diehard people and the people that know those people and the excitement of the youth versus the legend and all that kind of stuff. It doesn't bring on the casual people. Where I think heads up, well, that's pretty easy. This is what the target, they do, again, great production piece. They tell you what's got to be done. Even if you didn't know pinball, even if you didn't know the game, and the game's going to be Godzilla, you would learn. Oh, that's what you've got to do. Okay, I can watch this because it's going to happen within under two minutes or less. And it's exciting. You can go left screen, right screen. It's awesome, this competition. As great as this competition is, and I think it's obviously not something you can facilitate at all these competitions because you'd have to have two of the exact same machine. Ace Goge does a great job. Whenever they do a launch party, they have two machines. And they do this kind of heads-up stuff. But not everywhere can do it. But it's great to visually watch. The problem is IFPA doesn't give a shit about something that could be the most exciting thing in pinball, which is this, this heads-up challenge, which visually could bring more people in. It's fun. It's well-produced. This is much better. Our production for this shoopy that we're about to see on August 10th, I think it is, is going to be fucking lights out like the others were. But it means nothing for competitive pinball, which is sad that something so great is shitty for competitive pinball. why how why is it shitty for competitive pinball means nothing points are fucking nothing if you're chasing the whoppers it means nothing so the best thing visually that could bring people in means nothing i get why it means nothing but it means nothing i mean not everyone can give away a fucking pinball machine that's why this is so good they are giving away one but no i know this contest itself is great yeah no i i agree and one of my the favorite tournaments i've ever been in was a heads up. When we had, at Ryan's house, we had My Wizard of Oz and his Wizard of Oz and my Star Trek and his. How fun. Oh my God. It was just complete adrenaline rush. It is. Because you're watching your game, you're watching their game, you're like, oh fuck, I want more. It's so fun. It is such a good format. I know. Worth nothing. Maybe that's what they need to be working on is how they can allocate some points to it. No, how dare you. No, they need to allocate points to it and then they need to nerf it. There are points to it. It's already nerfed because it's not a lot of TGP. And again, time is the issue. Oh, yes, we always come back to fucking time. So here's this week's lesson, kid. It's a math problem for you at home. Okay? You have two tournaments side by side. One is a head-to-head match play event. So you have 30 people playing. 15 groups of two are going to play. I want you to tell me, when you play your first game, how many TGP is that worth? Think about it. Okay, you've thought about it. Martin, in a head-to-head match play event that first game you play how much TGP is that game worth? Zero. Why do you say zero? Because I have no idea and I feel like that's what the answer should be because of the point you're making. The answer is one. It was the easiest math. Holy fuck, take a sock off. Learn to count for fuck's sake.
    62:56
    The answer was one. Ryan, Ryan, are you around? Are you in the background there? I need someone who knows the term and stuff, but I think you can come through here. Sure. Marty, keeping that equation in mind, you're playing, oh God, you're playing a flip frenzy, which again is head-to-head match play. Tell me, when you play your first game in a flip frenzy, your first game, and it's head-to-head, and you've just played one game in 2022, this year, how much is that game worth? TGP-wise. Is it between zero and one? Yes. Pick one. What's it worth? Zero. Fuck. Honest to God. Remind me never, ever to get you to count anything. It's one. Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's fine. It's one. It's one game played. My point for everyone else who can do simple math is a head-to-head is the exact same as a flip frenzy in round one. with this new nerf. By the time you get to round 20, the head-to-head play is one game, TGP. That 20th game. By the time you get to the last game, which let's say is the 20th in a flip frenzy, it's worth zero. How does it fucking switch? Oh, that is bizarre. How does a game go from being one to being zero? That's your math question. Try to answer that. Not you, Marty. No, please don't. Bob Matthews, Bowen Cairns, Anybody decent with math, Stephen Bowden, get over here. Come on. People listening will get that. Yeah, I'm sure they will. But again, again, we were talking about how great the heads-up is, and it is August 10th for Stern. They're giving away a pinball machine. That's great. They've got, yes, the same people, and yes, they're from Chicago. Maybe we can see some switches for the next one. I'm sure it'll be a great production. But again, that great format, not worth shit in IFPA and just like the foot frenzies too. Yeah, no, again, what really shines with that format is how viewable it is. But not everybody can pull the technology together to make it viewable. Obviously, Carl does it extremely well. We know how complicated it is. So it's not the easiest format to broadcast. Oh, no, for sure. Yeah, think of the cameras you need. You need two rigs, first of all. So that's kind of the smoke and mirrors that we're seeing with Stern doing it this way because they're filming everyone individually. I've heard people say, and yes, the math is there, if you have eight people and the final challenge in the last three have always been the two-minute challenge, you can fix it so that all but one person wins. And the person who doesn't win is the one who has the worst score on the two-minute challenge. But if you come seventh, they can make it so the eighth person goes through, as long as you didn't shit the bed on every challenge. They do every challenge, too, so they don't have to pick the best one. So the intent is great with what they're doing. I think they need to rework the wheel just a little bit, and all will be great. So here's what I think. I don't think it's the head-to-head format that makes it digestible. I think it's the objectives. They're really easy for you to understand. And they're explained. That's the good part about it. That's right. So I would actually, this is just me riffing now, I would actually prefer not to have the heads-up format, two people side-by-side. But it's kind of like, in my head, I keep thinking skiing, right? I don't know why I'm thinking skiing. But when I watch the Winter Olympics and somebody's doing their big jump and they land and they get their points. And then you get to the next round based on getting the highest score. So let's say it was the two-minute challenge and all eight people, how many people are in it, they all play the same thing and it's that one objective, how much can you score in two minutes? But you're only seeing one person play. It's still easily digestible because you know exactly what they're doing. And then you go, right, well, the next four people, they go to the next round and then the inverted quotes, whatever it is, random generator says okay, you've now got to start this particular multi-wall. You can explain exactly what they need to do and then you're watching the people do it. I don't think you need the head-to-head format. I just think you need to have very easily understood goals and objectives. That's what makes it palatable. Yeah, that would work too. It'd certainly be probably easier from a production standpoint. Yep. There you go. Take that on. Give me some credit guys. Thanks. I take royalties. Well, anyway, again I'm bookending this. Thank you again, Stern, for giving away a pinball machine. Like you said, they probably get a lot of criticism for everything. Anyway, when you're the mothership, that's kind of how it goes. So the intent is good. And yes, Josh is entertaining. Like incredibly entertaining. He's very charismatic and he's great on camera. So you just have to point and shoot, start recording, and great stuff comes from him. And yeah, don't begrudge him being on it at all. All right. Emails. My God, please keep sending us emails. We're not going to read them all this week. I'm going to pick the favorite one, though. I know which one it is. I know it could only be one. This comes from Jason Leibel.
    68:02
    I'm reading it verbatim. Hey, fuck buckets. Hope your files are up for this one. These are my personal top five favorite games in no particular order. How would each of you personally order them? The Walking Dead, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek Stern, Black Knight Sword of Rage, Iron Man. I'm sure you're both incorrect in your ordering, but thanks for playing. Love the show. Truly brings a smile to my face every time I listen. Jason from Wisconsin. If you're going to start an email with, hey, fuck buckets, you are already on our side. Well, I had to respond immediately. Dear Jason, thanks for the email and taking time from your busy prison sentence. It's obvious you are a stupid cunt or brain damage has occurred or both. We will tear you a new one on the next episode. Thanks for listening. Enjoy your cheese and beer, Jeff.
    68:48
    He wrote back. Wonderful. I cunt wait. Jason. All right, let's go through his games. Walking Dead, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek Stern, Black Knight Sword of Rage, Iron Man. I don't think any of us are going to disagree with probably Walking Dead, Lord of the Rings, or Star Trek Stern. the ones where he might get maybe some some questions would be perhaps iron man and black knight sword of rage i like them both but i don't know if they're top five um but he wants to how would you personally order them so he just wants to say assuming that they're the top five how would you rank them from one to five these five games let's start with what we would rank the lowest what would you put at number five hmm me personally yeah oh fuck i'm gonna get shit on for this lord of the rings okay no that that's fair i know that a lot of people like it a lot of people don't oh i i think it's a great game don't get me wrong that's just when i'm thinking about ranking what do i want to own that's the fifth one on this okay so for me the the bottom is black knight sort of rage okay it's fine it's like it's a good game but i i think there's four better games in this list than that uh i would say probably iron man is my fourth yep i would agree that's in my fourth position? I would then put probably Black Knight third for me. Okay, so my third is Lord of the Rings. My number one and two are Walking Dead and Star Trek's Derm. Are you saying Walking Dead is number one? Yep. Do you know what? I would agree with you. And you've had Star Trek's Derm. I think it's fun, but did you get bored of it? It took me eight, nine years to get bored of it. Oh, so that's a great game. That's a great game. Yeah, and I've always said it's my favourite game of all time, and I still think it probably is, but if someone said to me, right now, you've either got a choice of having Star Trek back in your collection or Walking Dead. I would take Walking Dead. And I think that there's, because what it is, what really shines with Star Trek is the layout. The layout is fantastic. It makes you feel good. And I actually think the rules that are in it are matched very well with the layout. If it was any more complicated, it would lose the fact that it's such a fast flow game. But the magic of Walking Dead is it's got a It's got a challenging layout, but that and the rules and the call-outs and everything coming together I think is just a magic game. I'm taking code out completely because obviously it is the best code with Lyman doing that. Lord of the Rings is a spectacular code as well. Walking Dead for me, it's the layout that I like the most. Yeah. And it's a brutal layout, but we talk about John Borg games. You and I are both big fans of John Borg, and there's a lot of samey things we see in John Borg games. You play Rush, it kind of reminds you a little bit of X-Men a little bit. You play Guardians of the Galaxy, oh, there's a little bit of Metallica and Iron Man in there. And you see, wow, Kiss and Aerosmith is pretty close. Walking Dead, I don't know, am I missing something? I don't know of a game that's built the way it is. Yeah, for a John Borg, there's nothing that compares to it. It's probably the innovative layout, I think, yeah. So I like that. And then, of course, the code only makes it ridiculously that much better. So out of those games, if I have to pick one, you can have it in your lineup right now. It's The Walking Dead, for sure. Yeah, same for me. All right, Jason, there you go. If you want to email us too, I would suggest it because it's a lot of fun and you could be humiliated. I mean, we will gladly read your emails.
    72:13
    Finalroundpinball at gmail.com. We are also on Facebook. Please join our group. We do respond to everything. We're even on Twitter and Instagram, aren't we, Marty? Yeah, we don't really do much on those last two platforms. to be honest. In fact, I don't even log into Twitter. I can't remember the last time I had Instagram every once in a while. We haven't done a poll in a while. Now that you're editing, do you have time for polls anymore? Remember we had a problem before? Yeah, we did. I've got to go back and see whether they fixed the bug that they had in that poll software.
    72:40
    Got to be a little more interactive there for our loyal, wonderful fans. I do want to end on a couple things. It's been on my mind the whole show. I've been trying to avoid how sad this is to lose somebody that was quite into pinball a lot in the late 2010s. I met him at Pinberg. We talked about Berto Moon, you and I, last week, and he was the first person ever to say, I listen to Pinball Profile. I had no idea who this was, this stranger was, and he was very kind. I look forward to seeing him all the time too. The second person to ever say, hey, Jeff, I love your show, blah, blah, was a young Harry Jackson. Sadly, we lost Harry this past weekend. I don't know all the details, traffic incident, and I'm just heartbroken to hear that we lost him. I think he was 33, 34 years old, and he was very nice. I met him, I met his father the following year at Pimberg, and in fact, I was able to record him as well. So he's on a pinball profile, and I always look forward to hearing from him, and we talk some Philly sports and all that kind of good stuff, but you just never know. So we said it last episode, we'll say it again this episode, we love you we thank you for listening because uh let those people you know who you love uh reach out to them and say hi do whatever you can because you just never know do you no absolutely so yeah no i'd heard about that before we started recording as well and it's um yeah really sad really unfortunate harry we're thinking of you and your family and uh and we're thinking of all of our fine listeners all three four or five of them no that's not true and can I just also say, just on a positive note at the end, a lot of people came up to me, and I know that you get this because you go to a lot of shows, and I haven't. This is the first one at Brisbane Masters for a very long time. So many people coming up saying how much they love the podcast. What was most disappointing was how much people said that they liked you in particular, and how funny you are. Whoa. So I would say, guys, start listening to our podcast because you'll find it's not the case.
    74:48
    But thank you. Again, I just loved people coming up saying that they love what we do. That's all that it means to us. I do go to a lot of shows, and I get that more for final round than I do pinball profile. So we must be doing something right. Twippy doesn't think so. Ah, fuck you, Twippy.
    75:08
    We're not bitter. We don't talk about it every fucking day. No, no. Anyway, who cares? We have fun doing this, and we'll do it again in another fortnight. Oh, enjoy the edit, Marty. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I cannot wait. Thanks, everyone. See you in a couple weeks. Bye.