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Episode 361: Keith Elwin set for Carnage

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·16m 50s·analyzed·May 4, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.026

TL;DR

Keith Elwin on Godzilla, Pin Clash, IFPA 18 Germany, and game design philosophy.

Summary

Keith Elwin discusses his upcoming competitive play at Pin Clash (May 13) featuring Godzilla and his participation in IFPA 18 in Germany. He provides insights into game design philosophy, balancing pro/premium versions, rule tuning based on player feedback, and the competitive meta. The interview touches on his design process, tournament experiences, and upcoming Stern projects.

Key Claims

  • Pin Clash for Godzilla on May 13 had the biggest response ever according to Carl D'Angelo's production

    high confidence · Jeff mentions Carl said 'the response for Godzilla was the biggest ever' for Pin Clash events

  • Keith's cornerstone game (next project after Godzilla) has been designed/coded for a long time and is awaiting production line availability at Stern

    high confidence · Keith states 'this game's been done forever. Come on, Stern, get that line going' and Jeff notes 'there is this wait' suggesting production constraints

  • Destruction Jackpot on Godzilla's upper loop was intentionally designed to force players to use the risky shot

    high confidence · Keith explains: 'The whole reason Destruction Jackpot's on that shot was to force you to use it'

  • Keith made a code change to Godzilla's upper loop shot after Jim Belsito found an exploit with repeated upper loop hits

    high confidence · Jeff recalls: 'I remember way back when Iron Maiden first came out and I saw Jim Belsito hit upper loop, upper loop, upper loop, upper loop. It didn't take long for you and Rick Nagel to go, OK, code change'

  • Toppers typically contain modes that didn't make the cut from the main game, which are revisited and enhanced with different assets

    high confidence · Keith explains topper code development: 'usually should be a mode that didn't make the cut, and we'll go through and revisit it and add different assets'

  • Pro and Premium versions of Keith's recent games (Avengers, Godzilla) are nearly equal in quality, making it difficult to declare one as clearly superior

    high confidence · Jeff states: 'When I look at the pros, when I look at the premiums, I have a very hard time saying the clear-cut winner is this version'

  • Keith withdrew from Game 9 at IFPA 17 Dialed In finals against Escher, conceding without playing ball 3

    high confidence · Keith confirms: 'I just wasn't happy with how I was playing' and 'I recognized when i'm beaten' and consulted with Escher beforehand

Notable Quotes

  • “I want to create a game where you want to play one more game. That's Godzilla.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~06:45 — Captures Keith's core design philosophy and the success metric for Godzilla's engagement

  • “After he streams it once, then Rick and I will huddle together. All right, let's do this, this, this. Then we'll usually send Carl a beta copy and see if he can break it some more.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~08:20 — Reveals the iterative design process with streamer feedback and beta testing for code refinement

  • “The whole reason Destruction Jackpot's on that shot was to force you to use it.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~15:30 — Explains intentional design decision to balance risk/reward and guide player strategy

  • “I just wasn't happy with how I was playing. It's just you know when you play at a certain level for you know a certain amount of time and you could recognize when you're not playing how you should be.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~42:15 — Explains his IFPA 17 withdrawal decision, showing self-awareness and respect for the competition

  • “This game's been done forever. Come on, Stern, get that line going. Let's go. I want some Keith games.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~58:30 — Reveals production bottleneck at Stern and indicates multiple completed games awaiting manufacturing

  • “It's a battle, let me tell you. Because like you said, it's a much less dangerous shot on the pro for the Mechagodzilla. So the tradeoff was I had to make one of the targets almost impossible to hit unless you're in the upper flipper.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~23:15 — Demonstrates the design trade-offs required to maintain quality parity between Pro and Premium versions

  • “The long wait will benefit the game after this because I'm always a game ahead.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~57:00 — Indicates Keith maintains a pipeline with at least two games in development simultaneously

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonJeff TeolispersonCarl D'AngelopersonRick NagelpersonJim BelsitopersonGodzillagameAvengersgameIron Maidengame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern production line bottleneck; multiple completed Keith Elwin games (at least 2) awaiting manufacturing slots

    high · Keith: 'This game's been done forever. Come on, Stern, get that line going. Let's go. I want some Keith games.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Streamer Carl D'Angelo involved in game development feedback loop; new releases first stress-tested on stream, then refined via beta copies

    high · Keith: 'After he streams it once, then Rick and I will huddle together... Then we'll usually send Carl a beta copy and see if he can break it some more.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Tournament players strategically avoid risky upper loop shots unless forced by game design; loop strategy viable only with consistent feed mechanics

    medium · Keith: 'But well, you know, will tournament players do that? Probably not. OK, if there's ever if there's ever a tournament machine with a nice, sweet loop feed like the Eric Stone did, where you can just do it all day, then it's actually a viable strategy.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Keith Elwin attending IFPA 18 in Germany; expects to face international top-tier competition including Peter Anderson (Denmark former #1 player)

    high · Jeff: 'I do want to talk about IFPA 17' and Keith: 'I know from being over in Europe many times, they've been dying for you to come over' regarding IFPA 18

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Maintaining feature parity between Pro and Premium versions requires deliberate mechanical trade-offs; Pro versions often get tougher shots to compensate for missing toys

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.050

0:00
it's time now for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teoles you can find everything on pinballprofile.com we're on facebook we're on twitter and instagram at pinball profile email pinballprofile at gmail.com and if you want to support on patreon it would be very very kind you don't have to the show's always going to be free but if you'd like to pinball profile uh is on patreon just uh if you can click the link that'd be wonderful joining us right now as you can see on video. Yes, we're doing a video pinball profile. You can get the audio as well, but video. Right there, that's the man. The GOAT. Keith Elwin. Hey, Keith, how are you? Padres. Okay, I knew you'd be talking about your Padres, who, by the way, at the time of this recording, 500 team. Underachieving. Soto's hitting under 200. Because I knew you'd be popping off about San Diego. I put this shirt on. Stay classy.
0:56
Anyway, By the way, since you love the Padres, we'll get into pinball, but since you love the Padres, with your huge, huge Stern commission checks from people buying all your Godzillas and your Avengers and Jurassic Parks, your Bond 60th and Iron Maiden, you should send me to every San Diego game. I went to Atlanta and I saw them win three games. You want your Padres to win, you know the path to get there, okay? Yeah. You lit a fire under Nelson Cruz.
1:24
It was kind of the old man thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, five hits in Mexico. That was good. All right, let's probably talk some pinball.
1:33
Because if we're not going to talk Jays, we're moving off the baseball. But anyway, I want to do this right now for a couple reasons. Pin Clash is coming up on Saturday, May the 13th, and it's the great production of Carl D'Angelo.

Keith is planning to participate in IFPA 18 in Germany in May because his girlfriend wanted to go to Europe

high confidence · Keith states: 'Because my girlfriend really wanted to go to Europe. So she's like, let's go'

Jurassic Parkgame
Bond 60thgame
Dialed Ingame
Doctor Whogame
Pin Clashevent
IFPA 18event
IFPA 17event
Stern Pinballcompany
Escherperson
Adam Lefkoffperson
Peter Andersonperson
San Diego Padresorganization

high · Keith: 'It's a battle, let me tell you. Because like you said, it's a much less dangerous shot on the pro for the Mechagodzilla. So the tradeoff was I had to make one of the targets almost impossible to hit unless you're in the upper flipper.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith intentionally designs shots/mechanics to force specific player strategies; Destruction Jackpot deliberately placed to encourage upper loop usage despite risk

    high · Keith: 'The whole reason Destruction Jackpot's on that shot was to force you to use it.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pin Clash Godzilla tournament scheduled May 13 with record-breaking participation according to Carl D'Angelo

    high · Jeff: 'Carl has done this before with Your Jurassic Park. He did this with Avengers and now with Godzilla. and he said the response for Godzilla was the biggest ever.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Keith maintains rolling design pipeline with at least two games in various stages; always designing next game while current one awaits production

    high · Keith: 'The long wait will benefit the game after this because I'm always a game ahead. So you're on the game after the next one.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Keith Elwin has completed next cornerstone game (after Godzilla) awaiting Stern production line availability; indicates pipeline of multiple completed designs

    high · Keith: 'This game's been done forever. Come on, Stern, get that line going' and 'The long wait will benefit the game after this because I'm always a game ahead.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Code adjustment made mid-development to Iron Maiden after Jim Belsito discovered upper loop exploit; demonstrates ongoing balance via iterative testing

    high · Jeff: 'I saw Jim Belsito hit upper loop, upper loop, upper loop, upper loop. It didn't take long for you and Rick Nagel to go, OK, code change.'

    • 1:49
    Carl has done this before with Your Jurassic Park. He did this with Avengers and now with Godzilla. and he said the response for Godzilla was the biggest ever. And we're out of the pandemic. We had nothing to do before. We've got things to do, but people want to play Godzilla, Keith.
    2:04
    Well, it helps that there's a ton of them out there too. It does. It's a very popular game. But, I mean, people are – they spent weeks and weeks streaming this, and I've got to tell you, it wasn't boring to watch. It was pretty exciting. It's intense. You like to say I want to create a game Where you want to play one more game That's Godzilla I can imagine Blowing it when you hit that Parnage bonus way up there It's a beautiful thing You gotta restart Or you just cash it in I love watching Carl when he tries doing that Should I go to Planet X Or should I Build this bonus and he'll drain the next shot It's just hilarious I love that. I love watching Carl on IE Pinball stream, too. Who doesn't, right? He's very, very popular, does a wonderful job. It's a great tutorial. And then I go play a game, and it's frustrating as all hell because I'm nowhere near what Carl's doing. I like to bug Carl in chat, put on a tilt bob. He's got a tilt bob and stuff. But speaking of Carl, the funny thing is he's actually on this call right now. he's helping produce this video when he shows a brand new game out of box how are you and maybe Jack Danger with Foo Fighters how are you guys like oh gosh Carl's going to blow it up or he's going to find something out or he's going to complete the game is there some nervousness there when Carl gets behind the machine and just goes crazy on it?
    3:40
    No it's like it's a challenge it's like alright here's a rule set let's see all the exploits Carl can come up with.
    3:47
    After he streams it once, then Rick and I will huddle together. All right, let's do this, this, this. Then we'll usually send Carl a beta copy and see if he can break it some more. No, when I watch... Trust me, after I design a game and it's released, I don't want to play it. When I do play it, I'm just looking for bugs.
    4:05
    When Carl's streaming, I just looking for bugs The code pretty much done so now I can actually go back and play it and enjoy it without you know well I haven really tested this scenario And so it a lot more fun now than it was six months ago
    4:21
    I know you're in Illinois, but when you think of your old California buds, you know, we talk about Carl. But I remember way back when Iron Maiden first came out and I saw Jim Belsito hit upper loop, upper loop, upper loop, upper loop. It didn't take long for you and Rick Nagel to go, OK, code change. And that's a tough shot because that punishes you. All your games, you've got the upper flipper right there, and it just teases you. And so many good players refuse to hit it. It's different in Godzilla when you've got a destruction bonus jackpot or whatever. Okay, you've got to make that shot. But hitting that flipper, there's so much risk to it. And here's Jim pumping all the loops and making it. But us lay people, you know, we miss and see you later. It's out the out lane. But I love how you make those changes on the fly. The whole reason Destruction Jackpot's on that shot was to force you to use it. So there's actually, if you play the loop strategy, whereas going to Paris, you take the power up that doubles the loop value, those values get huge, especially if you have a magna grab attached to it because then it's five X loops on the next go around. So I think it's if you're going for points, you can definitely get there with the loops. But well, you know, will tournament players do that? Probably not. OK, if there's ever if there's ever a tournament machine with a nice, sweet loop feed like the Eric Stone did, where you can just do it all day, then it's actually a viable strategy.
    5:57
    Yeah, I think of in this not last year, the year before, remember Walt Wood on Doctor Who? I think he's still looping it right now. I think he's still there.
    6:06
    You're right. You just said if you're going for points. So you're the guy who comes up with the rules. And again, Rick Nagel does a wonderful job and the rest of your team there putting the code together.
    6:18
    People, you know this, you get the feedback from people who buy your games, and there are a lot of them out there. Are people playing it for points? Are they playing it for how deep they can get? Is it to complete it? Is it wizard mode? Is it all of the above? and I assume it's a bit of both. What's the mix? What's the sweet spot?
    6:36
    Yeah, it's all the above. Some people, like I said, I call them lunchbox collectors. It's their favorite license and it's like all they care about is, oh yeah, what assets does it have?
    6:50
    How does it look? They don't really care about getting deep into the game. You got people who only care about score. They don't care about assets or the way it looks. And you got guys that, it's kind of a combination of both. It really is a middle ground you have to pick.
    7:06
    The Spirits of Light and Godzilla kind of put everything closer to the start button. You can see the jet fighters. You can see the building falling down and the Mecha Shield coming up. That's all really close. Hopefully it's something for everyone there, but then obviously there's a bunch more layers if you're going for a score.
    7:26
    One thing I like about all four of your games and I'm sorry, I'm not including, obviously, Bond, the 60th, that's the fifth game, but the four cornerstones.
    7:36
    When I look at the pros, when I look at the premiums, I have a very hard time saying the clear-cut winner is this version. They're both excellent. They both have differences, no question about it. Avengers, okay, you don't get that cool Captain Marvel shot, but you get another spinner. You know, you had so many different things. Okay, we're not doing the mech of Doctor Strange, but again, the game still plays the same. Godzilla, obviously you've got some pretty attractive toy with the building coming down, but you've still got Mechagodzilla and a tougher shot there. And it's funny, I find the pro in a way even plays a little harder too because of Mechagodzilla, but they both still excellent games That a real difficult thing I would imagine you as you create these Whitewoods and these games how do I keep the pros just as good as the premiums
    8:32
    Yeah, it's a battle, let me tell you. Because like you said, it's a much less dangerous shot on the pro for the Mechagodzilla. So the tradeoff was I had to make one of the targets almost impossible to hit unless you're in the upper flipper. So that was kind of the tradeoff with that. and it's a much narrower shot as well.
    8:51
    Yeah, it's just basically you have to look at it. Okay, this man goes. What can go in its place? It's like, well, I got this much space. I can make a spinner and a loop.
    9:00
    That's how we did it. I want to ask because a lot of times with stirring machines and other companies as well, the toppers will come out after the games are done, sometimes a year, sometimes longer. These toppers come out. And to entice people to buy them, they've added code to them. I'm not sure, and I'm asking because I don't know, are you involved in the creating of the rules of those toppers, or is that after the fact and you've already moved on?
    9:28
    Yeah, usually. It usually should be a mode that didn't make the cut, and we'll go through and revisit it and add different assets or whatnot.
    9:40
    Okay. Wasn't sure. again pin clash coming up on the second saturday in may i want to make sure that is that yes it is may 13th uh we're video so it's tough to edit you know all the flaws are going to be here before i could cut out all my ums and ahs there's none of that here anyway appreciate it keith um so also in may this is exciting for a lot of people myself included to see you travel abroad and play in Germany at the IFPA 18. I know from being over in Europe many times, they've been dying for you to come over.
    10:17
    They might regret wishing that because you're probably going to knock them out. But the point is, it's exciting to see you play in this big, big event. And you are very selective about the events you go to. So how come this one is on your calendar?
    10:33
    Because my girlfriend really wanted to go to Europe. So she's like, let's go. Thank you, Matt. Yep. There's going to be a lot of, I guess, conversion kits. I looked at the list. A lot of conversion kit games there that I've never played, so it'll be interesting.
    10:50
    Oh, I haven't even seen that with the list. Are you talking things like Bride of Pinbot 2.0, things like that? No, like a lot of the old ballet conversions.
    11:00
    I looked at the list and saw some game names I didn't recognize, and I looked them up like, oh, it's a conversion kit for 8-Ball, and there was another one in there too. Oh, great. sorry the rules will be there they'll all be in german though i went i went there it was the first place i went to after covid and it's great you're gonna love bulls and balls it's spectacular in just a fun fun venue with all these different rooms and pinball machines and i had to play peter anderson who you know is a former number one player great player out of denmark and it's funny i call him mr video mode because he won the uk open playing video mode on fishtails That's how he won and then walked off. So I call him Mr. Booty mode because he likes to call me Mr. In lane, which is a way of saying I'm lucky. Ooh. Yeah.
    11:44
    It's dirty. Anyway. Well, Mr. Video mode, we played on Corvette and I know Corvette, but I don't really know the modes. That's okay. I can read them. No, I can't. They were in German. So I'm thinking the one is the RPM. You got to slap things. No, no, no. You just have to rev the one and then change the gear. Mr. Video mode beat me on that because of German. So you better brush up on your German there, Keith.
    12:09
    It's all about the raucous combo. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it is going to be fun to see you there. I do want to talk about IFPA 17. You and I, actually, I was standing beside you when you were playing Escher in Game 9 against, it was on Dialed In. You guys went back and forth. Game 9, it was in Florida.
    12:32
    A lot of people saw it on stream that weren there you were there beside Adam Lefkoff I was right there Escher blew it up Then it was your turn with needing about a million let say
    12:45
    And if I recall, you just walked up and said, you basically said congrats before you walked up and didn't play the third ball. What was your reason for that in your own words?
    12:58
    I just wasn't happy with how I was playing. it's just you know when you play at a certain level for you know a certain amount of time and you could recognize when you're not you're not playing how you should be and I had many chances to put Escher away in that match before that game and then when he blew up that ball and got us all his sim cards and I was going into ball three with zero sim cards I was it's like no way i i recognize when i'm beaten despite what anyone says it's like i i talked it over with usher and his dad beforehand so they were cool with it so i just like let's get out of here well i'm glad you say it because i've defended you for every time it's been brought up i was on stream in fact and i said no no no he didn't walk away he didn't pout and walk away he actually tipped his cap like it's actually a big sign of respect it was a tip of a cap well done i'm in jail you just put up a beast i've got it would take me forever to get there it was a good obviously game played by asher and a good game selection too right yeah i think that was selected by adam because he's he saw me playing daniele and that's going to have you play this i haven't played it in 10 years so yeah yeah hey those are the things i mean you went back and forth but uh uh you know what if you had a harder challenge maybe the round before maybe you would have been up to it but i I think you beat some guy four straight. 50,000 at Warlock took it. Yeah, let's not talk about that. It's been erased from the records. Anyway, it'll be good to see you in Germany at the IFPA 18. And does this mean maybe you get to do more traveling? We've got to find more exotic places for you to go to use your passport now to see you play other pinball tournaments. So anywhere but Canada, yeah, I'm good. What's wrong with you? By the way, you can't even duck out of this because you're on screen. Your dad is Canadian. You're a half Canuck. Yeah, I spent half my vacations up there. I don't want to go there anymore. I didn't know you've been up here that often. Okay. Nice. Windsor, right? Windsor. Yeah. It's not our finest city by any means, but anyway.
    15:19
    It's somehow pretty few and all the great things you do. I know you've got to get going, Keith. Thank you again. We'll watch Godzilla with a lot of fun on Pin Clash. It's hard to wait to see you. You'll be on JDL Pinball on a lot of the streams there for IFPA. Boy, this is going to be a fun and busy month. I know you're taking it a little low right now and just relaxing while your cornerstone has to wait a little bit. It's nice to get to play some competitive pinball. Yeah, I need to start practicing because I haven't played at all.
    15:52
    Okay. I won't ask you about the cornerstone. but because there is this wait, does that mean when we see the game, it's probably because you've had a long time, you and Rick and everybody. When this game comes out, it's going to be almost full code with the exception of bugs and tweaks and stuff. No, the long wait will benefit the game after this because I'm always a game ahead. So you're on the game after the next one. Yeah, this game's been done forever.
    16:21
    Come on, Stern, get that line going. Let's go. I want some Keith games. Hey, Keith. Thanks very much, and I'll see you in Germany. All right. Thanks, Jeff. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com or on Facebook or on Twitter and Instagram. Email pinballprofile at gmail.com. If you'd like to show support, you can do that, patreon.com slash pinballprofile. I'm Jeff Teolas.