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The Pinball Show Ep 164 BONUS: Recent Games Success, American Pinball Clearing The Air, & A BIG Mistake By Manufacturers

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·37m 6s·analyzed·Nov 19, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Beatles/Metallica sales data, American Pinball spending freeze claim, and speculation on manufacturer viability.

Summary

In this Pinball Show bonus episode, hosts discuss recent game sales success (Metallica Premium outselling Uncanny X-Men despite lacking a Pro model), Beatles Gold's market positioning, and address significant concerns about American Pinball's operational crisis. A Pinside forum post claims American Pinball is under a spending freeze by owner Mukesh (Aimtron) until 500 backlog games and 350 parts-only units sell, with no funds for Cuphead development until 500 confirmed orders arrive. The hosts debate whether this reflects management finally cracking down or an unmanageable situation requiring drastic fire-sale tactics.

Key Claims

  • Metallica Premium has surpassed Uncanny X-Men Premium sales as of mid-November 2024, despite Metallica Premium being the only tier offered.

    high confidence · Speaker (distributor at Flipping Out Pinball) citing their own sales data since last episode aired ~month ago. Also noted Metallica Premium likely to eventually outsell combined X-Men Pro+Premium totals.

  • Jaws Premium is Flipping Out Pinball's best-selling Stern title for 2024 in new-in-box sales.

    high confidence · Distributor speaker reviewing their sales numbers for 2024.

  • American Pinball has 500 games in boxes, 250 Tank GTF units, and 100 BBQ units with no new parts orders allowed until these sell.

    medium confidence · Unattributed Pinside forum post by 'de-anarchy' claiming 100% reliable source but explicitly unconfirmed. Hosts note poster has historically accurate information about AP.

  • American Pinball cannot order parts for Cuphead until they have 500 confirmed orders with deposits.

    medium confidence · Same unconfirmed Pinside post; hosts question feasibility given manufacturing lead times.

  • American Pinball has a hiring freeze and cannot replace lost art, purchasing, and line staff.

    medium confidence · Same Pinside post; corroborated by retirement confusion clarification mentioning recent departures.

  • American Pinball's recent use of 'retirement' language was a miscommunication between management and sales/marketing teams.

    medium confidence · Host speculation on how the error occurred; AP later clarified they meant games were not being produced imminently, not permanently retired.

  • Beatles Gold used on secondary market sells for approximately $8,000.

    high confidence · Host checked secondary market pricing when AP announced the reissue.

  • Beatles has weak code depth compared to modern games but is highly addictive in multiplayer due to clear, achievable mode structure.

    medium confidence · Host opinion based on personal experience; acknowledges initial skepticism that changed after hands-on play.

Notable Quotes

  • “Metallica Premium sales has surpassed that already without them even being shipped, surpassed that of our sales of Uncanny X-Men Premium, which we sold a lot of X-Men.”

    Host (Zach Sharpe, Flipping Out Pinball distributor) @ ~15:00 — Key sales metric showing unexpected strength of Metallica remaster over contemporary licensed title.

  • “I would say that at this point in time, if you're trying to get rid of 500 of these games that have been out forever... I would, as a friend, Dave, get your CV updated... I think you've been given a task that is unattainable.”

    Host (responding to hypothetical AP management scenario) @ ~50:00 — Stark assessment of American Pinball's operational viability given the alleged constraints.

  • “if you were the owner, I would slam my fist on the table and say, that's not going to fucking work. Why are you wasting our time right now? We are so far beyond a fucking pinball sale.”

    Host (Dennis, co-host) @ ~70:00 — Expresses skepticism that promotional tactics alone can address what appears to be a structural inventory/cash crisis.

  • “The Beatles is one of the most addictive multiplayer pinball machines ever made by Stern Pinball. Ever. Ever. Because it's somewhat fast play time... you understand what you're supposed to do.”

    Host (Zach Sharpe) @ ~25:00 — Strong personal endorsement after initial skepticism; highlights Beatles' accessibility of rule set.

  • “These little sales, American Pinball – if you legitimately think these sales will do that, you are spinning your wheels, my friends. You're spinning your tank treads, my friends. That's not going to move these units.”

    Host (Zach Sharpe) @ ~75:00 — Dismissal of promotional tactics as insufficient remedy for AP's deeper inventory problem.

  • “I don't know how they sell these games, Dennis. I don't.”

    Host (Zach Sharpe) @ ~80:00 — Expression of genuine uncertainty about American Pinball's path forward given market and operational constraints.

  • “There are a lot of Metallicas out there. Yes, this is a remastered version. It's going to have a lot of improvement on top of it. But because people know a lot of the rules and a lot of the layout already, it's so interesting to me to see it beat a game that... has gotten a pretty good praise.”

Entities

Metallica (Stern Pinball)gameUncanny X-Men (Stern Pinball)gameBeatles (Stern Pinball)gameJaws (Stern Pinball)gameBeatles GoldgameCupheadgameAmerican Pinball (AP)companyMukeshperson

Signals

  • $

    market_signal: Metallica Premium (remaster, no Pro tier) has surpassed Uncanny X-Men Premium sales within one month, and likely to outsell combined X-Men Pro+Premium totals within four months.

    high · Distributor provided actual sales numbers from their company data; quantified by allocation/unit volume.

  • ?

    product_launch: Jaws Premium is Flipping Out Pinball's best-selling Stern title for 2024 new-in-box sales, exceeding other premium and pro releases.

    high · Distributor confirmed this from year-to-date sales review.

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball alleged to be under spending freeze by parent company Aimtron; inventory backlog of 500+ finished units and 350+ units with parts on hand; no capital for Cuphead development or staff replacement.

    medium · Unconfirmed Pinside post from historically reliable source; hosts skeptical of some details but concerned by overall picture.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Cuphead reveal shifted from IAAPA to early 2025; parts ordering allegedly not yet commenced, suggesting significant timeline extension beyond initial expectations.

    medium · Rumor confirmed via absence (no IAAPA reveal announced); manufacturing timeline concerns raised by distributor regarding lead times.

  • ?

    product_concern: American Pinball accumulated 500 finished games in inventory (Houdini, Hot Wheels, others) and 350 units worth of parts without corresponding sales, indicating production/demand forecasting breakdown.

    medium · Pinside post claims; hosts compare to Kitchen Nightmares scenario of pre-made inventory stockpile without sales velocity.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.111

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. So as we jump more into this, Dennis, I do think the Beatles will do well.
0:25
Will do well. I do think... Whale. Full Southern Indiana coming through. Whale. See, it's been too long. When I go too long, I get my accent back. The Beatles gold, I believe, will do well. However, I will say that our allocation has not been sold out yet. Hmm. Well, I just... I think it might be a slower loan. And go ahead and let them go. But I do think eventually they get there. Yeah. I don't know. It's an older title now, and some people loved it. But we do have Insider Connect now withdraws people in. The Beatles Gold on the secondary market, listener, I checked it whenever they were announcing this. They've been going used for right around $8,000, so the price comparative is pretty good. And when you look at the features on this game compared to it, it's similar, I would say, to either an Ellie of Stern or at at least one of those special edition anniversary edition premiums like the Godzilla 70th or whatever it may be. Yeah, the the biggest issues again, and I noted it back on the on the main show was the the single level layout. So, well, there's a lot. And I still remember, I believe it was Gomez going around when Beatles first came out and really emphasizing just how much of the bill of materials for all the drops and stuff were actually there. But when people look at it, they don't see fancy sculpts and stuff. They see just drop targets. They see old school pinball. And a secondary factor that I did not mention, which has always been, I believe, a barrier, especially compared to other games that have come out since then, is this code set is not deep. uh true and the reason i think is because the game plays pretty brutal but but nonetheless for people that are like trying to go on a story and adventure this was really just listening to beatles songs and shooting a flat layout and i think it plays fun but it's not easy to beat though no no because i i think that it's a i think it's a very challenging game in a lot of ways it plays It's better than the Sea Witch ever did. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they made a number of improvements to it. But I understand why if you're looking at this or you're thinking about Jaws, like it's tough. I mean, Jaws Pro still, even though the value proposition is much better comparatively than it used to be, I mean, Jaws Pro, it just feels more modern than Beatles does. Yeah, what Beatles does have going for it, listener, if you guys have not played the Beatles or experienced enough time on the Beatles, I will say this. I got a lot of shit whenever this game first came out. I was hesitant when this game first did come out, Dennis, as you know. But once I got my hands on it, people accused me of being a shill because they were like, you can't sell these damn expensive pieces of shit. That's the only reason why you love this. And I have held strong ever since then. And over time, people have finally agreed and said, no, this actually is a really, really great game. What I always loved about it is a really good shooter, number one. I like the theme, number two. But the rule set that you said wasn't deep, this is one of the most addictive multiplayer pinball machines ever made by Stern Pinball. Ever. Because it's somewhat fast play time. The rule set is deep. I would say so deep enough. Like you get, but it's so understandable. You got like five modes. Each mode, you focus on one thing. Pop bumper mode, a spinner mode, an orbit mode, right? A drop target mode. Super simple. But what I love about this code set, and I do not understand why more of it. Are you listening, Ray? Ray, why more coders don't do this is what's so awesome. It's a you understand what you're supposed to do. You have a certain amount of time and to actually complete that mode and give that checkmark to be able to get to the big wizard mode. You get complete all the modes to be able to do that. You have to hit that shot so many times and then you can actually complete it. I love that. I just freaking love that. Like, for example, you know, so many spins. You have to have so many spins to get that. It goes up in stages. It's kind of like the metal system on Star Trek. So if you don't do very well, you know, the bronze metal on Star Trek, that's not very many shots to that spinner mode. A moderate amount, you'll get your silver or stage, you know, four. But then stage five on Beatles is completing that mode. And then if you get all the modes started, that's a mini wizard mode. all the modes completed that's the big wizard mode just i love this game uh and uh the other thing i was going to say dennis is i was always hesitant from this for me the big thing on this because it's a beautiful game was always the way it stood it stood substantially shorter than the other games so it's an old school game yes on the lineup it kind of i was like oh man but now we've got bond 60th that sits right next to it yeah but how many people are going to own both of those me yes congratulations to you honestly you know what this does though this my threshold usually is two on something sitting and looking like it's its counterpart so now i do want that was always holding me back on the beatles i was like yeah but where am i going to stand it because It still doesn't really stand up next to a standard 81 Bally or a Stern Electronics game.

Co-host (Dennis) @ ~20:00 — Surprise at remaster outperforming fresh licensed title; speaks to power of nostalgia and brand recognition.

Aimtron
company
Flipping Out Pinballcompany
Zach Sharpeperson
Dennisperson
Kerry Hardyperson
Dan Arkeyperson
John Wick (Stern Pinball)game
Looney Tunes (Jersey Jack Pinball)game
Avatar (Jersey Jack Pinball)game
Elton John (Jersey Jack Pinball)game
Texas Chainsaw (Jersey Jack Pinball)game
Funhouse Remakegame
Pulp Fictiongame
Hot Wheelsgame
Houdinigame
IAAPAevent
  • $

    market_signal: Metallica remaster's success (outselling modern licensed title despite lack of Pro tier) validates remaster strategy and legacy IP recognition; likely to prompt additional Stern remaster announcements.

    high · Distributor notes Stern management likely surprised by strength; hosts predict more remasters will follow if Metallica maintains momentum.

  • ?

    community_signal: Beatles game sentiment has shifted from skepticism/hostility to recognition of its design quality and multiplayer appeal; previously maligned title now positioned as underrated.

    high · Host recounts past criticism of being 'shill'; notes recent community acknowledgment of game's merits; framed as 'People have finally agreed'.

  • ?

    operational_signal: Hosts debate whether American Pinball's only path forward is aggressive fire-sale pricing on backlog inventory; risk of brand damage versus cash necessity.

    medium · Distributor argues fire-sale is only viable exit; co-host skeptical that promotions alone will move 500+ units; both agree MAP/brand protection is secondary to survival.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: American Pinball experienced departures in art, purchasing, and line staff roles; hiring freeze prevents replacement, further constraining production recovery.

    medium · Pinside post claims; corroborated by retirement clarification statement implying recent staff losses.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Beatles designed with clear, achievable mode structure that minimizes cognitive load for new players while maintaining addictive multiplayer loop; contrasted with modern games that prioritize code depth.

    high · Host praises specific design choices: five modes, time limits per mode, progressive difficulty tiers, clear completion feedback; argues coders should replicate this approach.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Distributors prioritizing Stern, Chicago Gaming, Barrels of Fun over American Pinball due to inventory constraints and better-selling alternatives; limited working capital forcing dealer selectivity.

    high · Distributor explicitly states inventory limits force them to anticipate bestselling products; American Pinball receives no priority allocation.

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Aimtron (recently public company) asserting financial controls on subsidiary American Pinball; owner Mukesh previously uninvolved due to other business focus, now cracking down on losses.

    medium · Hosts speculate Mukesh was too busy with main business to monitor AP; now imposing spending freeze; public company status may require better ROI controls.

    • 5:59
    How many Stern Electronics games do you own? Two. Which ones? I own Dragon Fist. Okay. Stargazer? Thank you. Stargazer. Yes. Okay. I own those two. Well, technically, I own Nineball as well. So technically, I own three. But Nineball and Dragonfist are currently getting restored. Oh, okay. So I thought those three, because I always wanted a little I got a Dolly Parton, so sit her next to them. Always just have a collection of five standard feeling type of games. So sorry, that was my Beatles thing. I wanted to tell these people that, remember in the past, I was like, Uncanny X-Men Premium still sold more than Metallica Premium. I think that was our last episode. And I was like, well, Metallica is so beloved. And I remember what all I said. I asked you if Metallica was competing with Foo Fighters. You predicted it to surpass it, and you are correct. since our last episode a month ago, Metallica Premium Sales has surpassed that already without them even being shipped, surpassed that of our sales of Uncanny X-Men Premium, which we sold a lot of X-Men. I know you were pleased with how Uncanny X-Men was doing. Yeah. And so I was even kind of surprised to see us surpass that already before they've even been shipped. So, dude, people are fucking eating up Metallica. Yeah, that's really interesting, though, because, I mean, so Foo Fire is very well received, but compared to a classic, one might call a god-tier classic. Oh, X-Men, you mean? No, yeah, compared to Metallica, which, I mean, people know Metallica. There are a lot of Metallicas out there. Yes, this is a remastered version. It's going to have a lot of improvement on top of it. But because people know a lot of the rules and a lot of the layout already, it's so interesting to me to see it beat a game that, other than where the code is at, has gotten a pretty good praise by a lot of people that I've heard. You know, I've heard some mechanical issues as well. But by and large, there's been a big, obviously compared to like John Wick and stuff, there's been a huge embrace of Uncanny X-Men. It was sort of interesting because I think you raised the thing of after just two games, three of you want to call Jurassic Park Home Edition, this notion of Jack Danger being at the level of his name sells games just like Elwynn. But then you have this ancient Borg title, get a new coat of paint and a couple of new songs. And all of a sudden it's curb stomping X-Men. I think the response to Metallica Remastered without a pro model has really, I don't know if it's surprise term pinball, but it opened up their eyes. Oh, if there was doubt, I can't imagine there was, but if there was doubt that they weren't going to remaster more of these Sam games, oh.
    9:09
    I mean if it beating your cornerstones holy crap Now keep in mind that without the pro model you going to have but again this is just me It my distribution company flipping out pinball This is just the reflection of numbers of just our sales and data. And, as a reminder, our consumer base, our customer base is skewed heavily towards enthusiasts. So that is both collectors, tournament players. We skew enthusiast, not brick-and-mortar general retail and not location. We sell to a lot of locations, but enthusiast. But if I'm looking at the numbers here as of right now, what, mid-November throughout the year, if I'm adding up the sales of X-Men Pro and Premium, okay. At that point, I'm still over Metallica Premium. But it wouldn't surprise me. if Metallica Premium in total, four months from now, surpasses that of the total between Uncanny X-Men Pro and Premium combined. That would be, I, that's, if it does that, that's a, because that's such a tall order because the Pros are so much more approachable for a lot of people. But then again, you could argue that, look, there's more Metallica Premiums being sold because they only made 500 LEs, whereas on the Uncanny X-Men, they made 800 and something LEs. Sure, sure. That could very well be a factor, absolutely. But Metallica, they've already made it back in 2012. They sold a lot of them then. Yeah, there are already a lot of them. Granted, different version, but same layout, a lot of the same modes.
    10:52
    And the other thing to remember is X-Men also has been for sale longer. So this has been, you know, maybe on this one I'm going to be wrong, and the long tail isn't going to whip. It's not going to do a Godzilla tail whip. That's right. I think other data that would be interesting to some people, some might not find this interesting. I think what we could do, Dennis, if people like this, maybe at the end of the year, go through and talk about the best sellers and what really didn't sell well. And compare different manufacturers to one another. Because right now, I think flipping out pinball's most sold game in the year of 2024, new in box, would very much surprise people. But if you thought about it. Yeah. I think it'd be interesting. Maybe if you did a top 10, you wouldn't have to say the numbers, but you could say number 10 best-selling thing was John Wick Pro and so on and so forth. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think that'd be interesting. I think that the one thing I will give you guys right now is that Metallica has been big. And Uncanny X-Men has been big. John Wick has not been big. I don't think you're shocking anyone with that statement. But what I will say is, as of right now, to date, our most sold Stern pinball, and this could be our most sold game this year, Our most sold title, just model, not title in and of itself, model and title, is Jaws Premium. And that doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me either. But Jaws Premium, to date, we've sold the most of for 2024, the most stern.
    12:39
    That's not including pre-owned models. That's new in box. So, yeah, other things that I'm trying to look at the numbers here. There's a nice battle going between the Jersey Jack Elton John versus the Jersey Jack Avatar sales-wise.
    13:01
    Right now, Elton John still sold more than Avatar. Oh, this is interesting. So for us, we have sold more Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw together than we have Avatar. both LA and CE models together. I don't find that surprising. I kind of do. Not when you combine them both. I don't. Yeah, and it's all based on like there's not many spooky dealers. There's a lot of Jersey Jack dealers. There's a lot.
    13:30
    Okay, yeah, we can dive into that more. Listener, if you guys like this kind of discussion, email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. Don't sleep on Funhouse remake. We sold quite a few of those too. And Pulp Fiction. Oh, man, we'll go through all the 2024 games, talk about what all we've sold.
    13:50
    All right, now let's jump into this whole American pinball, retire, not retire, we're coming back part time. Let's talk about that. Yeah, well, I'm not particularly interested in the statements regarding that were clearly in response to Kerry Hardy's video. I think so, yeah. Here's the part that initially stood out to me that was very confusing. So why did they use the retirement language? I acknowledge that they acknowledge that they used that in error and they're clarifying. But how do you think that mistake happened in the first place? I'm just – Is that a rhetorical question you're asking? No, I'm asking you. I'm perplexed about – I want to know what your guess is because they – did they not – I don't know what the exact language was used when they sent their information out to distributors. But it clearly was very readily interpreted as those games are now no longer being built. I think what had happened, again, I have no clue, but if I were to guess, I would say that management told the sales or marketing team, we're not making these games anymore. Like these are the titles we're just not going to make anymore. Then the sales or marketing team interpreted that as, oh, they just did that to Oktoberfest, so that must mean we're retiring that. So they presented that to dealers where, in fact, management probably meant, no, it's not like we're never making that. There's still catalog games, but we just have no intentions of making them anytime soon. We need to focus on this next game, maybe like next summer, next fall, maybe. But there's really no desire for these games strongly. So we just don't need to run any. Hell, we've got some in stock. All of our dealers have some in stock. We're not going to make any anymore. There's a possibility of that. And then I think that's what I think happened. Okay. It seems very weird to even bring it up in those instances. It's just not on the line anymore, especially they've got a number of them stockpiled to even, I guess, discuss matters. But they're not going to sell any more Legends of Valhalla. Why would they make any more of those? Right, right. Yeah, no, I don't know. It's all very confusing. Now, part of this where I wanted to kind of take this now that we're safely ensconced behind the paywall is something that I saw in the American Pinball thread on Pinside from Dan Arkey. or de-anarchy, or I'm not quite sure how to say it, but had a post. And I saw it, and I'm noting this one because my understanding is this person has put out information about American Pinball in the past that has turned out to be accurate. I wonder if they're a previous employee.
    16:16
    That or they're friends with an employee is the thought. It's a very short little blurb, so let me, I'm just going to read it. Sure. Because I'd like to know what your thoughts are, because I think it ties to this very, very closely. I have just heard from a 100% reliable source but can't confirm Mukesh, owner of Aimtron and AP put AP on a total spending freeze not a single penny can be spent until Fix sells all the games they have in boxes about 500 games all the games they have parts for but haven't been built about 250 GTF tank versions and 100 BBQ all sold before they can buy a single part for Cuphead They also cannot buy parts for Cuphead until they have at least 500 confirmed committed orders with deposit. Hiring is, of course, also frozen, so no replacements for the art guy, the purchasing guy, or all the line guys or anyone else they have lost. So things pretty grim there, and I would be very surprised to see AP make it through 2025. So that's the quote.
    17:19
    And I saw that before I saw this clarification. And so now I am with the full acknowledgement from the Pinside person that he could not confirm this, but it has been a source that others have indicated has always been reliable that Ametron is cracking down now. Well, they're publicly funding the company, aren't they? Yes, I think they've finally gone public. I knew they were in the process. But, I mean, Zach. Dennis here.
    17:52
    Oh, I get it. You're a distributor. you're a distributor not just of american you're a distributor in general i mean i don't know because i don't work for philip and out pinball i don't know like what your average sales load is in a year of american pinball games but what what would you think if you were told that of a variety of stuff like the houdinis and stuff that they're clearly trying to get rid of at this point of this 500 purported games of various sorts that they have in boxes and the capability to build another 350 games but they all barbecue and tank gtfs like what do you do if you told you can make the new game unless all that shit is gone
    18:38
    What do I do as a dealer or what do I do as a manufacturer? I mean, both. I get it. Mostly I was asking as a manufacturer. Let me rephrase it because I'm so perplexed and I just don't know this industry well enough. Zach, if you brought you in, if AP brought you in And it said, Zach, if I'm in Dave's position, this guy. Yeah, this is Zach. Dave here.
    19:04
    This pin side guy. Don't tell anyone. But this is completely true. We can't put out Cuphead until like the first thing we got to do is we've got 500 other games. We got Houdini's. We've got, you know, I don't know what Hot Wheels and stuff. We need to sell them. Like, what's the strategy? And I would clarify and say, and we have no money to do so. Right. No additional money to spend in order. Well, we don't have enough money to bring in a purchasing guy, but I'm going to cover that part. Okay. I would say, Dave. These are built, though. We don't have to wait on the line. These are in boxes. They're in our beautiful American pinball boxes, ready to go. I would say that at this point in time, if you're trying to get rid of 500 of these games that have been out forever, and you have parts to make another 250 of something. or a 350 of the tank version of the barbecue. Yes. Okay. So I would say, respectfully, I would, as a friend, Dave, get your CV updated. I would say while you currently hold this position, I would float it out to different manufacturers and see if there is a job that you can pick up because I think you've been given a task that is unattainable. Like, there's no way to do that. There's no, because if you can't spend any more money, it's not like you can hire on additional coders to make these games just magnificently coded as a sales feature. You can't spend money excessively on marketing these games, even if you did at the current price points, you're not going to sell. You can't afford to if management's not going to let you significantly slash the prices, like at least 25%, if not higher on these games, then they're not going to move. I think you should, if you haven't already, prepare and try to maintain a job in this industry and jump somewhere else because this can't be done.
    21:03
    Yeah, it seems pretty bleak. And I'm reading it in the context both of this clarification email where they talk about the stuff not truly being retired, plus the Pinto Ween sale where there were some arguably significant discounts on some of the games.
    21:21
    I mean... We didn't sell a game during that. Well, but I mean some of the stuff where they knocked the tank game, the tank version down quite a bit on GTF, didn't they? Absolutely. Signature and LE. Yeah. So, I'm... I think you're right. I mean, I guess my outsider take would be the only way I could imagine them getting rid of the 500 games is you have to fire sale them. And so they'd have to drop any map sort of thing and basically say, even sell them at a loss. But you've then fractured your brand to a point of no value return for future products. I mean, it's a risk, but at this point, it's fail if you do fail, if you don't. And if cash is what's needed, like maybe this part that was claimed on Pinsight about not being allowed to do any hires the biggest issue on the higher front is the line team how many people on the line are left if i don't know i'm assuming there probably are somebody build anything well that's the thing how did they end up in this situation where they have 500 games in boxes exactly that's why i don't the the truth of this is i don't i don't know what's really going on there i don't know what they have in stock here's the and this may not and these they may not have Here's the part that I'm like, I would question just from my end and knowing somewhat about the manufacturing and timelines and such. So when they say we have 250 machines worth of parts for GameX or whatever, and we're not going to, we're not. So the whole validity of this makes me question everything because right when they say we're not going to order a part for rumored cuphead. All right, so number one, listener, if they haven't ordered a part yet for Cuphead, then we would technically not see that game for at least four months, if not longer. Like you have to order so far ahead of time for certain parts that if they haven't been, for example, like take Barrels of Fun, for example. I can almost guarantee you if they're going to launch a game February or March-ish, they've already started ordering parts already. You can't. So if this is in fact true, then we wouldn't see Cuphead forever, which they're kind of telling us we're going to see it not too long. So that makes me worry. And then the other thing is this, like we've got 250 machines worth of parts. It's like, well, no, because those would just be used for Cuphead because if you were in that far of a hole as a manufacturer, you would have already prepped during the design phase of, hey, we need to be reusing scoops. We need you got a captive ball here. Well, we haven't used that really in a game. So we need to be doing a scoop that like you would have already modified that to use some of the parts that you already have. um so but maybe that's just semantics i'm looking too far into the details of things but uh but yeah i don't it's tough well if they had planned for the few of this sort of future but but likewise i mean assuming these these claims are accurate yeah you wouldn't like i have you ever seen kitchen nightmares with gordon ramsay i love it yeah the one where he goes in and fixes the restaurant fucks people up yeah yeah yeah it was so there have been a couple of these But there's two I remember. One was a catering business that opened up a restaurant-based Mexican restaurant. And there was another called Mangia Mangia that was an Italian restaurant. And I'm bringing these up because in both instances, there was a scenario where the kitchen staff would just pre-make burritos and pasta, respectively, and freeze them. And Gordon would go through the freezers. And it was just like they had so much product because the line just kept producing and they weren't selling it that fast. So they just stockpiled it. And again, if you have a business that stockpiled 500 games of the size of American pinball, there's no way they sat there and said, well, we've never used a captive ball before. We need to use a toy we've already used so that it makes sense. And we're being strategic and efficient. Like who was policing the line when they're like, well, I guess we're building more Houdini's today. Well, I guess we're building more Hot Wheels. People, manufacturers, I know one, I won't say the name, but I know of one right now that they throttle their work put based on sales that they receive on a new product. Like, I guess all of them technically will do that. But it's just very apparent like, okay, well, we got this many sales instead of this many sales. So I need to throttle back the, and whether that's layoffs or whatever it may be, we don't need to be making X amount of games a day. we only need to be making a third of that. So we need to space out manufacturing, whereas we usually would run it this fast. We need to slow that down so that maybe we spend more time on testing.
    26:14
    I only see a Hail Mary here, if this is accurate. So while I agree with you, the fire sailing would do severe brand down, but at this point, it's just if you need cash, If you got enough cash by selling the 500 games to maybe justify at least staffing back up the lined crew. Maybe they still have some line crew. I don't know. But to be able to then go ahead and build the 250 tanks and barbecues to file, you'll have to fire sale the barbecues. Nobody likes it. But we would have seen reactions already, though. We would have seen a plan of action take place because I just how do you manage a company? And I would have done that six months ago. I figured it out. Well, again, I don't know. Here's my impression, because I have questioned that why is American Pinball Management been kept in place this long, given by all external measures, they are not doing well as a company. And so I think McKesh has been reluctant or busy maybe with going public with the rest of his real company to worry about little AP and what they're doing. But I think he is, unsurprisingly, it would make sense for him to finally be like, this is not running right. I'm going to crack down. COVID is no longer an excuse. See, there were all sorts of excuses that people could have hidden behind, especially if their supervisor wasn't really monitoring it that closely. And part of that clarification you did, we didn't read it on the public part. But part of this information that was in the clarification for American Pinball was upcoming additional sales IAAPA sales and then Black Friday and Cyber Monday So again that where their fire sale through the sale like that going to be tied to stuff And another thing, I'm on my roll now, and another thing, Zach, separate from this claim that I discussed that I saw on Pinside, I saw another one, I don't remember who said it, and again, totally a claim, may not be true, was that there had been rumors that Cuphead would be revealed at IAPA. And now that has been indicated that there will be no reveal at IAPA, and they're indicating early in 2025 will be the game reveal. So they could just, they may not have anything bought. And we've seen this. Remember the deep root strategy of it was, Raza was always right around the corner, right around the corner to be built. And then there was always an extension. The bump, yeah.
    28:36
    If I'm, all it takes is as an owner of a company to have your little weekly or monthly meeting, and somebody would be like, all right, so I'm by a whiteboard here. Okay, so we're going to do an IAPA sale, and we're going to do a Black Friday and a Cyber Monday sale, where if they buy a tank, they get a free voodoo glass. If I was the owner, I would slam my fist on the table and say, that's not going to fucking work.
    29:06
    Why are you wasting our time right now? We are so far beyond a fucking pin a ween sale. Like, no. So beyond.
    29:15
    Voodoo ain't going to cut it. I would like to assume that management would know that. What I honestly would do if I was the owners of this company, and I really – I don't think they need – need is a word that I don't think Ametron would use in this situation. They don't need anything. They have plenty of capital. They have all the money in the world that they want to feed this company, this little sister company, or not. So it's never a need thing. They're probably just setting boundaries and saying, hey, if we're going to continue with this little side quest that we're on of American pinball, the only reason that we're going to do that is if it can show some amount of fucking revenue or even promise. We're not going to dump more money into it. They don't need the money. So I worry that they would be hesitant to fire sale stuff because they don't really need it. It's not even the money at this point. Yeah, well, if I was them, I would reach out. Survival is in no way like tied to American pinball. I would reach out to their top dealers, and I would say, hey, between us, this is business. If you were to buy 25 of these GTFs, I will sell them to you for, you know, this is between us. You can't even market this stuff, but I would sell 25 or 50 of these units to you for, and maybe take a loss there just to recoup some of the money and get rid of those units that way. These little sales, American Pinball, Zach here, if you legitimately think these sales will do that, you are spinning your wheels, my friends. You're spinning your tank treads, my friends. That's not going to move these units. We're past that. You need substantial. What about more significant sales, like buy one, get one free? It would have to be something like that. You buy a tank, you get barbecue. Yeah, it would have to be something like that. It would have to be. for me as a dealer to even exercise the idea. Because right now, the dealers that are dealers of them, well, I say that. American Midball has some wonky dealers that aren't dealers of other big manufacturers. But generally speaking, my money is limited as a dealership. And when I have Stern cranking out all these games that are selling and Chicago Gaming and barrels, that's where my money is going. Like I'm anticipating for those products. when I don't know. I don't know how they sell these games. Dennis, I don't. Okay. That's what I said. The only way to sell GTF at this point is to dump so much into the operating system and code where people will overlook the stuff that they don't, the boxes that weren't checked. I just, it's so hard for me. I could see a fire sale sooner than imagining that they actually go back. They wrote off that product after that one hurrah. But then you kill all the customers that you originally had that were supportive because then they've lost all that money because they went in at $12,000 for a tank game. And now you're slashing it to $7,000? Like, I'm not buying one of those games. Price of the early adopter.
    32:27
    That only works for products that are hot over time. I don't know. Maybe they're fine. Maybe this is all bullshit. Who knows?
    32:38
    Okay, Dennis, so I pose the question to you. Are these manufacturers a little ass backwards now anymore on this? Why are we shipping to our overseas customers first when our U.S. That's our bread and butter. Why wouldn't we just give them the goods first? I would argue, and I want to hear what you have to say about this. I would argue, and I love our international fans out there, but I would argue that our international, even Canadian, or even South American listeners, I'd argue that they're going to wait regardless. Like the Internet, they'll wait. They're used to waiting for anything that comes from the U.S. They'll be fine. They'll wait, I assure you. Whereas U.S. people might be a little bit more fickle. Well, you know, I don't know if the U.S. people are actually going to be any more fickle, but I don't understand really what they're gaining by trying to get the international shipments out first. Okay. So so I in that regard, I mean, it's here's the thing. It's I don't think it's per se American fickleness, but rather it's just a numbers game. And if people might get distracted by the next new shiny and most of those new shinies just happen to live in the United States, it would make sense to prioritize that simply because everyone has the same percentage chance of getting distracted. So that's how I'd say it. So I do think you're right that it doesn't seem to make sense to try and do these shipments internationally first. But I don't think it's because there's some sort of special mental difference between Americans and what they want with pinball versus Europeans or anyone else. I just think it's simply a numbers game, and that's where most of the people that you might lose are. So you just prioritize it because of volume. Okay. Yeah, I think that the whole concept and idea, I think it was a certain thing where it's like, well, they'll land around the same time. But if that practice is not applicable for these other manufacturers, I think they're just slipping into the behavior without really conceptually thinking about the purpose for said decisions. So like the reason I'm posing it today, listeners, because I was as I was going through this news thinking, well, why was Chicago Gaming Company after nearly two years? Why the fuck are they sending them to Europe? Like you've got U.S. people that are sitting here getting pretty upset about the delay and you sell here more than anywhere. Why in the hell would you not ship them out here as quick as you can? And then we ran into the Avatar thing, and then whenever I was given that update, I was like, what? Why in the hell? Especially with Avatar. It hadn't been the greatest seller recently or since launch, to be honest. Shit. Why would you not get those CEs out? And then the other part of me was like, well, maybe this is cynical, but maybe they don't care as much about the international people. So they're like, hey, the early runs that we do on these games may have more problems. Let's just give them to the Europeans. I don't think they're putting that much thought into it. I don't know. But then again, then it's like, well, no, because sending parts and fixes is going to be more expensive shipping overseas than it is to Kansas.
    35:52
    A lot going on there. So I don't – it's just – I've been thinking about that lately. Even in my own business, at times I have to stop. Nicole and I have to stop and think, hold on.
    36:05
    Who's buttering our bread? We have to make sure that our best business relationships are prioritized. If there's only a limited amount of resources and time and prioritization has to occur, we don't need to be forgetting about that. What manufacturers offer the best quality products at the best cost, at the best speed, at the best margin?
    36:29
    Why bend over backwards for a product that you get a third of the margin for something that you sell five times of and gives you double margin? So all of that is taken into consideration unless you just keep building and building and building your company and you account for all of those things, which is interesting. I think at the end of the day, the way they're doing it is not preferable and would be better distributed to U.S. first. I do agree. So Chicago Gaming, JJP, if any of your employees are there or anybody that makes decisions, figure it out.