Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Dirty Pool Podcast - Ep31 - Raymond Davidson - Player to Programmer

Dirtypool Pinball·video·1h 5m·analyzed·May 5, 2026
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.029

TL;DR

Raymond Davidson on competitive play, code design philosophy, and balancing accessibility with depth.

Summary

Raymond Davidson, a competitive pinball player turned programmer at Stern, discusses his journey from the Seattle pinball scene to working on major titles including Metallica, Rush, and Fall of the Empire. He shares insights on balancing game difficulty between casual and competitive play, designing rules that leverage playfield features, and iterating code based on community feedback and stream observation.

Key Claims

  • Raymond was hired at Stern in 2020 and moved from Seattle to Chicago

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson, opening discussion of his career transition

  • The Seattle pinball scene was in a 'dark age' around 2011-2012 before the renaissance started

    medium confidence · Raymond Davidson describing historical Seattle scene conditions

  • Raymond won second place at Northwest Pinball Championships with a $2,500 payout in cash, including a brick of $2 bills

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson describing early tournament success

  • Raymond worked on Elwin's game (likely Infinity Quest) upon joining Stern in 2020

    medium confidence · Raymond Davidson discussing first game at Stern; host mentions Infinity Quest

  • Raymond worked closely with John Borg on Rush after an initial awkward first meeting in the Stern lab

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson anecdote about initial interaction with Borg

  • Tim Sexton lowered the number of record shots needed to light time machine in Rush from two to one for accessibility

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson discussing Rush code balance with Tim Sexton contribution

  • Stern received push back on Star Wars code where hitting the Hoth lock shot lit all three locks, which Raymond initially defended

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson discussing Star Wars accessibility balance issues

  • Raymond found a bug in Metallica's Blackened mode where draining and hitting an unlit add-a-ball button would secretly grant an add ball

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson responding to chat question about unexpected bugs

  • Raymond considers Foo Fighters his favorite final code and Rush his second favorite, though Rush feels overwhelming in retrospect

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson answering rapid-fire question about most satisfying final code

Notable Quotes

  • “You can't have it. So it made me want to do it more.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 1:56 — Explains his motivation to compete despite age restrictions on tournaments

  • “I walked into the lab and saw John Borg working on Rush and I was like, 'Ah, the genius at work.' And he just looked at me like, 'Who the hell is this guy?'”

    Raymond Davidson@ 6:07 — Humorous anecdote about his early experience at Stern before becoming close collaborators

  • “You really won't know how fun it is until you actually try to hit those shots and play with them.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 11:58 — Core principle of iterative code design and playtesting

  • “Watching on stream. So if you ever are in Twitch chat and you see a Raid game on, I'll probably be in chat watching.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 12:46 — Demonstrates his active engagement with community feedback via streaming observation

  • “If I see either of those [modes being avoided or played too much], then I'm jacking up or lowering points.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 19:43 — Explains the primary mechanism for code balancing based on player behavior

  • “Hitting lit shots, you're getting millions and it just kind of naturally led to like the billion being the baseline.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 19:20 — Describes how Stern's scoring standards evolved organically

Entities

Raymond DavidsonpersonStern PinballcompanyJohn BorgpersonTim SextonpersonKeith (last name not provided)personMetallicagameRushgame

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Raymond Davidson hired by Stern in 2020 from competitive player base, relocated from Seattle to Chicago

    high · Direct statement: 'moved to Chicago in 2020 when I got hired at Stern'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Raymond applies competitive player knowledge to balance games between casual accessibility (modes/features within 2-3 flips) and competitive depth (complex combos, multipliers)

    high · Rush accessibility discussion: 'you really have to have all some cool features like literally two or three flips away'; contrast with combo system depth

  • ?

    code_update: Raymond uses Twitch stream observation to identify player behavior (modes avoided or over-played) and adjusts scoring/difficulty accordingly

    high · 'Watching on stream... if you see a Raid game on, I'll probably be in chat watching'; 'if I see either of those [modes avoided/played too much], then I'm jacking up or lowering points'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Raymond designed Rush combo system with album-based mechanics and combo jackpots; Death Star detonation mode in Fall of the Empire with adjustable greed mechanic; Led Zeppelin wizard mode with multiplier escalation (1x→2x→3x)

    high · Detailed descriptions of: Rush combo jackpots; Death Star dual-path cash out; Led Zeppelin multiplier wizard mode mechanics

  • ?

    community_signal: Raymond actively engages with community criticism via Twitch and Pinsside but applies design judgment to filter noise from valid concerns

    high · 'community criticism come into a significant role'; 'sometimes there's a lot of noise that you have to filter out'; pushback on Star Wars Hoth lock accessibility

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

0:04
accepts all to the cult of the great. >> Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome
0:05
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome
0:06
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Dirty Pool podcast. Uh, I have learned a very valuable lesson, which is to not eat spicy foods the day before a podcast. Today I'm joined by Raymond Davidson, extremely famous, wellknown for both your competition play, uh, your contributions to many amazing games at Stern, including Metallica, Rush, and most recently Fall of the Empire. Uh, I'm joined by Ray. What's up, dude? Hey, how's it going? Chilling, man. Um, so I have a lot of questions about all sorts of things related to integrating programming with pinball. And a lot of today's talk is about your perspective as a competition player going into the world of programming games and how much that kind of like skill and experience kind of like filters into a rule set when you start to design a game. Um, but before we hop into that, can we talk a little bit about like where you came from, what got you interested into pinball, all that good stuff? Yeah, I mean I'm originally from the Seattle area. Um, moved to Chicago in 2020 when I got hired at Stern. Um, and the Seattle pinball scene of course is huge. Um, ever since I was I mean I mean I grew up with like a um a game in my grandpa's basement, you know, when I was like four or five years old and had a time visit grandma played that. And then eventually once I got older, I discovered, oh wait, you can actually get free games at these things. So I'd seek them out in um pizza joints and whatnot. And then um you know, in my teenage years, once I learned how to drive, I was able to go to um any tournaments that would let me cuz at the time there's a lot of um 21 and over only tournaments. So I was super annoyed about that. Um, so it kind of the the inability to play kind of fueled me to want to play more. It was like, you know, you can't have it. So it made me want to do it more. >> And I imagine the Seattle scene's

  • Raymond regrets not making multiball objectives matter more in Led Zeppelin, as players skip them while pursuing wizard mode

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson discussing code improvements he would make to past games

    • “I think Foo Fighters is probably my favorite Final Code just cuz everything is pretty darn balanced.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 21:18 — Reveals his satisfaction with Foo Fighters' overall code balance

  • “Sometimes there's a lot of noise that you have to filter out where either it's like no, I'm pretty confident like this is actually how I envision it.”

    Raymond Davidson@ 23:38 — Explains balance between community criticism and designer intent

    • Fall of the Empire
    game
    Led Zeppelingame
    Foo Fightersgame
    Star Warsgame
    Lord of the Ringsgame
    Simpsons Pinball Partygame
    Infinity Questgame
    Avengersgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    IFPAorganization
    Papa (Professional and Amateur Pinball Association)event
    Northwest Pinball Championshipsevent
    Seattleorganization
    Chicagoorganization
    Dirtypool Pinballorganization
  • ?

    product_concern: Star Wars received community push back on Hoth multiball being too easy to start due to lock shot lighting all three locks in initial code

    high · Raymond: 'I actually got push back online... it's way too easy to start Hoth Multiball'

  • ?

    product_concern: Raymond regrets not making multiball objectives matter more in Led Zeppelin, as players skip them to pursue wizard mode

    high · 'I kind of wish I made the multiballs objectives matter more cuz right now... you basically ignore all the multiball jackpots cuz you're just trying to get through the songs'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Game design must account for long play sessions affecting tournament/league logistics; 40-minute plays are problematic for league nights

    high · Host: '40-minute plays for tournament players really slows down a league night'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Seattle pinball scene was in dark age around 2011-2012; renaissance began right then; age restrictions on tournaments were common barrier to entry

    medium · Raymond: 'it was kind of a dark dark age' in 2011-2012; 'a lot of um 21 and over only tournaments'; scene 'just started exploding' after that

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Stern developed organic standardization where lit shots should score at least millions of points, baseline billion for major achievements; derived from player expectations and organic playtesting

    high · Raymond: 'things should score generally in the millions'; 'anything less than that, I feel like people know feel like they're getting ripped off'; 'it just kind of happened organically'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Raymond emphasizes gap between whitewood theory and actual play experience; must playtest to discover shot difficulty surprises and unintended exploit paths

    high · 'you won't know how fun it is until you actually try'; examples of shots being easier/harder than expected; concerns about unintended multiball skipping

  • ?

    product_concern: Metallica Blackened mode contained bug where draining and hitting unlit add-a-ball button secretly granted add ball; went unnoticed and unabused by community

    high · Raymond: detailed bug explanation; 'luckily never never abused it and and it didn't really nobody really noticed it'

    • 1:58
    And I imagine the Seattle scene's
    1:58
    And I imagine the Seattle scene's probably pretty good being so close to Portland, even back then when pinball hasn't didn't get, you know, hadn't received the resurgence from COVID and all the other modern kind of pinball boost. >> I mean, I'm talking back in um
    2:11
    I mean, I'm talking back in um
    2:11
    I mean, I'm talking back in um 2011, 2012. Um it was kind of a dark dark age but then that was like right when the renaissance started happening. It was right around then and then it just started exploding. Um and then I was able to play tournaments you know everywhere. Um Seattle scene big venues started popping up. Um but yeah when I first got into it was it was pretty dark. It was hard. Um you know there was the games like uh you know CSI and you know what >> Mustang 24. Yeah,
    2:43
    Mustang 24. Yeah,
    2:43
    Mustang 24. Yeah, >> Ripley. Although I heard Ripleys is
    2:44
    Ripley. Although I heard Ripleys is
    2:44
    Ripley. Although I heard Ripleys is actually not so bad. A lot of people say that Ripleys is not that bad of a game. >> I like Ripleys. Yeah, I like Ripleys. Uh
    2:52
    I like Ripleys. Yeah, I like Ripleys. Uh
    2:52
    I like Ripleys. Yeah, I like Ripleys. Uh that's that's actually a pretty good game. Um but yeah, so I just kept going to tournaments. Um and eventually started flying to tournaments and then realized, oh, I can usually qualify to get some of my money back. So it's not like a total all my money's going away. It's like, well, I can try to make my money back. Um, and so that >> for people wondering what would what
    3:15
    for people wondering what would what
    3:15
    for people wondering what would what would qualifying monies look like back in 2012. >> I mean, it was usually just a couple
    3:22
    I mean, it was usually just a couple
    3:22
    I mean, it was usually just a couple hundred bucks, but that would, you know, help negate the uh the plane a little bit. Um, >> sure.
    3:27
    sure.
    3:27
    sure. >> And then, of course, every once in a
    3:28
    And then, of course, every once in a
    3:28
    And then, of course, every once in a while once you when you spiked, you know, my big my big breakout was the Northwest Pinball Championships. I got second and got like 2500 bucks and and it paid in these bricks of cash and and one of the bricks was an entire brick of $2 bills and I I I used those $2 bills for the next like year and a half just half-hazardly. It was hilarious. >> Wow. They don't even make $2 bills
    3:52
    Wow. They don't even make $2 bills
    3:52
    Wow. They don't even make $2 bills anymore, right? >> I think they still do. Yeah, it's not
    3:55
    I think they still do. Yeah, it's not
    3:55
    I think they still do. Yeah, it's not very common. But the guy >> This is live, so maybe chat can figure
    3:58
    This is live, so maybe chat can figure
    3:58
    This is live, so maybe chat can figure out if they still make $2 bills, but that's still they're rare. What a cool way to receive your payout for for tournament. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty funny. Um, so anyway, once I won that, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go to Papa." And so then the next year I flew out to uh Pittsburgh, which was kind of annoying from Seattle. There wasn't like any direct flights. Um, but I competed there and I kind of got my ass kicked. Um, but uh, it it kind of made me just want to do it again. And so then I came back the next year and then I think ever since that my second papa I've pretty much always qualified in any tournament that I've I've flown to. Um >> yeah so it was kind of you know kind of
    4:39
    yeah so it was kind of you know kind of
    4:39
    yeah so it was kind of you know kind of made me realize like okay you're you're good but you're not that good yet you know you got to you got to keep playing. So I >> well the I mean the metric for
    4:47
    well the I mean the metric for
    4:47
    well the I mean the metric for tournament play especially at the competition level that you're talking about is like so high. I mean, even just to be able to qualify there puts you in the top players of of the world, especially a >> pop. And that kind of what helped drive
    4:58
    pop. And that kind of what helped drive
    4:58
    pop. And that kind of what helped drive me, too, is is, you know, pinball, I could realize my name moving up this list of people and every tournament I'd go to, I'd move up the list a little more. And it's like, oh, I don't have to win every tournament. I just have to just keep doing good. And every once in a while, you know, maybe win a tournament or or get top four. And it was just a very positive progression of I just want to keep going. And so I just kept going. >> Amazing. So then at some point uh you
    5:25
    Amazing. So then at some point uh you
    5:25
    Amazing. So then at some point uh you know obviously your first game that you programmed on was Infinity Quest I think right's second third game I forget what order that was. >> Yeah. So that was in yeah in 2020 when I
    5:36
    Yeah. So that was in yeah in 2020 when I
    5:36
    Yeah. So that was in yeah in 2020 when I got my job at Stern. Um they had me help on Elwin's newest game and so I got to you know see it in the lab before everyone. I saw this crazy wire forms and everything and I was just like, "Oo, wow. This >> lots of wild ramps." Did they know you
    5:51
    lots of wild ramps." Did they know you
    5:51
    lots of wild ramps." Did they know you as a programmer at that point or I mean obviously your competition play, you know, your name was on the map, but >> yeah, I mean um some of the people did,
    6:01
    yeah, I mean um some of the people did,
    6:01
    yeah, I mean um some of the people did, some of the people didn't. Um it was pretty funny. One of my early stories was I I walked into the lab and saw John Borg working on Rush and I was like, "Ah, the genius at work." And he just like looked at me like, "Who the hell is this guy?" Okay. And the side eye from I just like walked away slowly. Um >> pull the Simpsons meme, right? You just
    6:23
    pull the Simpsons meme, right? You just
    6:23
    pull the Simpsons meme, right? You just like disappeared into the hedge. >> Yeah. And then uh funnily enough though,
    6:29
    Yeah. And then uh funnily enough though,
    6:29
    Yeah. And then uh funnily enough though, that ended up being one of the projects I worked closest with on with Borg. So that that was pretty funny. >> Yeah. And your lineup's amazing, man.
    6:36
    Yeah. And your lineup's amazing, man.
    6:36
    Yeah. And your lineup's amazing, man. You've worked on so many amazing games. I mean, you've worked on Foo Fighters, Rush, Metallica, you know, and then you also worked on Led Zeppelin. >> Yeah. No, I I tried my best to make that
    6:46
    Yeah. No, I I tried my best to make that
    6:46
    Yeah. No, I I tried my best to make that game good. Um, and uh it's pretty fun if if you um get into it. Um, and I'm still pretty proud of a lot of the uh, it was kind of my first game where I actually got to do a lot of stuff. You know, the Keith games, Avengers, um, and I worked on a little bit of Iron Maiden and a little bit of Jurassic Park maybe or but those games, you know, you're just doing what Keith wants basically. So, I mean, there was a little improvisation here and there like he he let me do all the trophies in Avengers. He kind of had like a rough idea, but he didn't really have anything speculated. So, I kind of went to town on those. Um, but otherwise, you know, all his gem rules and all that stuff, that was all Keith's doing. So, I just kind of followed orders. Um, but the Led Zeppelin was when I joined um I worked with Tim Sexton and he gave me free reign to basically, you know, he's like, "Here's the outline. You know, you have your tour modes, your multiball modes, the song modes, but like it was up to me to actually implement them." So, I thought that was a really fun project because I got to come up with, you know, each multiball has its own rules, its own shots that do different things. You know, one's like a target based multiball, one's like a ramp based multiball, that sort of thing. So, that was a really cool way to to jump into programming my own game basically. >> Absolutely. And so you and I kind of
    8:03
    Absolutely. And so you and I kind of
    8:03
    Absolutely. And so you and I kind of talked about this for a hot minute before we before we went live, but I think Led Zeppelin's a fairly good example of this, but if a game doesn't have maybe the most amazing layout or it's it's layout is good, but as a programmer when you approach the project, do you feel like it's your responsibility to kind of elevate it to another level? Like how do you does the responsibility to program a game that's good to make it great like way? Yeah, I mean I honestly don't I I try not to, you know, judge the the games, but I it's like when I'm on a game, I'm just all about making that game as best as I can make it. And um you know, you got to use the the you know, the each playfield might have its pros and cons, but you got to use the best parts of the game. Um you know, like on Led Zeppelin, I I thought it was really cool that it had the two scoops. And so like I had rules about changing songs where you'd go into the top skip to change songs. And in some of my multiballs you could like lock balls or whatnot. And then like I loved that the side flipper shot was really difficult. So I wanted to make sure when you hit it, you know, you got a really good thing which was the uh playfield multiplier time um was really important. Um so >> cat intercepted cat butt.
    9:18
    cat intercepted cat butt.
    9:18
    cat intercepted cat butt. >> Yeah, sorry about that.
    9:19
    Yeah, sorry about that.
    9:19
    Yeah, sorry about that. >> No, that's okay, man. Cat friendly
    9:21
    No, that's okay, man. Cat friendly
    9:21
    No, that's okay, man. Cat friendly channel. Uh yeah. Well, chat said Carl said that Led Zeppelin has one of his all-time favorite wizard modes, too, which just shows that like >> Yeah. Oh, I had a blast making that.
    9:29
    Yeah. Oh, I had a blast making that.
    9:29
    Yeah. Oh, I had a blast making that. That was Yeah, that was really fun. Um, >> for the people who have never gotten to
    9:32
    for the people who have never gotten to
    9:32
    for the people who have never gotten to Led Zeppelin's final wizard mode like me, can you give a quick rundown of what that looks like? >> Yeah, so it's kind of um, you know, it's
    9:40
    Yeah, so it's kind of um, you know, it's
    9:40
    Yeah, so it's kind of um, you know, it's your usual everything is lit sort of fiesta. Um, but then during the after the party is over, so there's like six balls of of everything is lit. Once that's once you're down to one ball, um it's sort of like every shot is now like 1x then 2x then 3x and you have to then hit the scoop to reset the timer, >> reset the X. It's kind of like TV wizard
    10:06
    reset the X. It's kind of like TV wizard
    10:06
    reset the X. It's kind of like TV wizard mode in Family Guy but with like a little twist. >> Sure. Sure. Sure.
    10:10
    Sure. Sure. Sure.
    10:10
    Sure. Sure. Sure. >> So it starts off like everything like
    10:11
    So it starts off like everything like
    10:11
    So it starts off like everything like Indiana or Shadow and then you've added a multiplier mechanic layer. >> Yeah. So, it's like, you know, your
    10:18
    Yeah. So, it's like, you know, your
    10:18
    Yeah. So, it's like, you know, your first FA, it's like a multi-phase wizard mode where your first phase is just, you know, hit points everywhere, but then once you're down to one ball, you're like, "All right, I'm in one ball." And it the wizard mode lasts until you either drain that one ball or you run out of time. So, it's kind of like a um gives you that extra pressure feeling and and it feels really good when you when you blow it up. >> Sure. Everybody loves that dopamine. Um
    10:40
    Sure. Everybody loves that dopamine. Um
    10:40
    Sure. Everybody loves that dopamine. Um so, we are live. So, chat, if you have questions, Joe the Dragon here just threw a really good one. He asked, "How much gets copied over from older games?" So, I'm guessing he's saying like how much of the framework do you move port over from an older game to a new title that you're working on as kind of like a baseline? >> I mean, each developer is different, but
    10:57
    I mean, each developer is different, but
    10:57
    I mean, each developer is different, but a lot of times you do start with um a lot of the same kind of base classes and then logic structures that your other game has. Um just because you know they've been proven to work and so you kind of build build upon that. Um, but yeah, it's, you know, each game is still, you got to start from kind of scratch because you got different switches, different lights, you know, different everything. >> Sure. Yeah. You got to remap all the LED
    11:24
    Sure. Yeah. You got to remap all the LED
    11:24
    Sure. Yeah. You got to remap all the LED patterns since none of that, I'm assuming, matches up from game to game. Um, so you get your white wood, right? And you've you're you talk with kind of the rule set or you're creating the rule set with whoever you're designing it with, right? What do you filter for what's fun in your head versus when you actually start to flip it and then that goes through a kind of a revision process? >> Yeah. I mean, you know, you'll see the
    11:51
    Yeah. I mean, you know, you'll see the
    11:51
    Yeah. I mean, you know, you'll see the whitewood and you'll have ideas for shots and things. Um, but you really won't know how fun it is until you actually, you know, try to hit those shots and try to play play with them where you might think, uh, this shot is a total gimme, so I don't want to have it lit all the time, or this shot's super hard, so I want to make sure it's worth a lot. But then you play it and you're like, "Oh, that shot's actually easier than I thought or that shot's harder than I thought." Or, um, I have this idea for like, "Oh, it'd be cool if you know, you hit this and this and do this that you get this big bonus." And then you actually play it and you realize, "Yeah, but nobody's doing that or like I it's too risky. Like, I'm not going to go or or it's too esoteric, like I have no idea that that's happening." So, um, you kind of learn watching people play is one of my favorite favorite things actually. Um, watching on stream. So, if you ever are in Twitch chat and you see a Raid game on, I'll probably be in chat watching. >> I see you in almost every stream of of
    12:52
    I see you in almost every stream of of
    12:52
    I see you in almost every stream of of your games and sometimes other in other games, too. So, but it is good to see feedback, right? I imagine. >> Yeah. Yeah. You definitely you just
    13:01
    Yeah. Yeah. You definitely you just
    13:01
    Yeah. Yeah. You definitely you just nothing beats, you know, organic uh play. Um and um you just kind of you know adjust based on what you see and um you can also um you sometimes I'll get a little paralyzed where I'm like all right I have this idea and I'm like okay I think if I have this shot build this shot collect that would be fun and then I'm like oh god but what if what if someone just never collects and they just build forever or or what if what if they do this and this and and at some point I have to just just do something and and then see what actually happens cuz if you think about all the hypotheticals and whatifs, you'll your brain you'll just go in circles like >> Well, I mean, there's so many things a
    13:43
    Well, I mean, there's so many things a
    13:44
    Well, I mean, there's so many things a ball can do in a pinball machine, right? Is there something maybe either specifically from Star Wars or Rush or was one of your more recent games that you can think of that you were like surprised that it like worked so well or just something that like the rules came together and the scoring was so much more fun than you than you imagined? Um, >> yeah,
    14:02
    yeah,
    14:02
    yeah, >> detonating the Death Star on Fall the
    14:03
    detonating the Death Star on Fall the
    14:03
    detonating the Death Star on Fall the Empire is definitely one of my favorite kind of like pinball moments and cash outs because you do I mean you get hundreds of millions of points. >> Oh, blowing up the Death Star.
    14:10
    Oh, blowing up the Death Star.
    14:10
    Oh, blowing up the Death Star. >> Yeah.
    14:11
    Yeah.
    14:11
    Yeah. >> Yeah. No, that mode um that that worked
    14:14
    Yeah. No, that mode um that that worked
    14:14
    Yeah. No, that mode um that that worked out really well. I really like the um how Yeah, you're you're making progress on the Death Star. getting all these points and then when it's finally time to blow up the Death Star, you can either blow it up right away or you can try to, you know, juice it as as high as you want to go. You hit more shots and then you get like the really big cash out. Um, so that's kind of a good example of where both types of players like if you just want the moment of blowing at the Death Star, you can just send it in there, but if you really want to get greedy, you can you can um hit hit the other shots. Um, and yeah, I think I think a lot of stuff ended up being pretty popular like in Rush the um the combo system. Um, once you learn it, I think a lot of people have given me props for that. They think it's really cool. And I got to give props to Borg, too, cuz he he's the one that put the one, twos, and threes, you know, on the playfield. Um, but I came up with like the albums and and the combo jackpots and things. Um, and you know, there's other examples. Um, Foo Fighters, um, I think the, uh, the bot frenzy mode with the, uh, the spinner where you're just ripping the spinner to get these, you know, huge spinner values. Um, along with the the the cool music that Tano Tano helped, um, I think actually make some of that, too. Um, >> so there was there's a lot of It's hard
    15:35
    so there was there's a lot of It's hard
    15:35
    so there was there's a lot of It's hard for me to just pick, you know, one one moment. >> For sure. There's like how many moments
    15:39
    For sure. There's like how many moments
    15:39
    For sure. There's like how many moments in every game? Um, I was actually, as a person who's not generally a a music pin fan, Metallica and I had not played a lot of Rush and the first time I got on Rush, I was like, this is probably my favorite board layout. Like, it's such a kind of more flowy and non-fanbased and kind of like unique layout for a board game. And then when I actually finally started to learn a bit about, like you said, the combo systems and how to collect records, uh, I don't know, it really it really blew me away. It's definitely it's not as an accessible game, but I think it's a game that's so deep and great for for home ownership. How do you balance code to be able to introduce people to a game like that when you want to have the depth for a home game, but you also want to make it just immediately fun for someone who's just going to slap on it and just, you know, blow a few quarters. >> Yeah. I mean, I think you really have to
    16:25
    Yeah. I mean, I think you really have to
    16:25
    Yeah. I mean, I think you really have to have all some some cool features like literally two or three flips away. Like, you cannot go more than that. Um, and so on Rush, um, it's one record shot lights the time machine for a mode. So, as long as you hit any shot and then hit the time machine, um, originally it was two. Um, I think Tim Sexton lowered it to one cuz he had the correct insight of, you know, even two might be too many for some people, right? >> Um, and so, you know, and for like the
    16:54
    Um, and so, you know, and for like the
    16:54
    Um, and so, you know, and for like the first multiball in Rush, you just hit the time machine four times. So, I made sure that that was an easy multiball. Um, and then it gets bigger as as the game goes on. Um, you know, same with on Star Wars. I actually went a little too easy at first. The first code you'd hit the Hoth target, it would light all three of your locks. Um, which actually I I still kind of stand by that decision cuz, you know, it's a hard game and I wanted people to see the battle of Hoth. Um, but I actually got push back online of like it's way too easy to start Hoth Multiball. >> Well, I I think that lock shot's pretty
    17:28
    Well, I I think that lock shot's pretty
    17:28
    Well, I I think that lock shot's pretty narrow, too. It's not it's not the easiest shot on the game. >> It's really tough to balance because you
    17:33
    It's really tough to balance because you
    17:34
    It's really tough to balance because you need something accessible that people will just get. Um but you can't have it you you know super easy where the game is just playing forever and everyone is like it's you know every game I'm doing this and it's getting boring. So >> right 40-minute plays for to tournament
    17:50
    right 40-minute plays for to tournament
    17:50
    right 40-minute plays for to tournament players really slows down a league night. >> Yeah, for sure. So, it's
    17:56
    Yeah, for sure. So, it's
    17:56
    Yeah, for sure. So, it's >> So, I have I have a quick question
    17:58
    So, I have I have a quick question
    17:58
    So, I have I have a quick question really quick. We've got a I got a rapid fire because Chad has been flooding me with a bunch of great questions. So, I'm going to give you a bunch of rapid fire questions, but I want this in the back of your mind while we're thinking about it. You Rush has what I would call one of the most classic butthole shots in pinball. I want you to think about what are some other favorite butthole shots in pinball. Uh while we blow through this list, you ready? >> Okay.
    18:18
    Okay.
    18:18
    Okay. >> Uh so, Joe the Dragon wants to know
    18:19
    Uh so, Joe the Dragon wants to know
    18:19
    Uh so, Joe the Dragon wants to know scoring balance, points per X, when does that get put in in terms of doing scoring adjustments into code? Uh, I mean you you have an idea of things, you know, you kind of use billion as like a really good game. So then everything is kind of built off of that where um things should score generally in the millions. Like as you're hitting lit shots, I want to give at least a million points when you're hitting lit shots. Anything less than that, I feel like people, you know, feel like they're getting ripped off. >> Can I ask, did Stern standardize that?
    18:51
    Can I ask, did Stern standardize that?
    18:51
    Can I ask, did Stern standardize that? because I love that you knowing that you got a billion on a Stern game means it's pretty good but you know like Turtles has obviously not that high scoring and people really kind of criticized it for that but it's like you could just imagine another zero on the other end of your score and it's the same thing. >> Yeah,
    19:05
    Yeah,
    19:06
    Yeah, >> I know that. So yeah, it kind of just
    19:07
    I know that. So yeah, it kind of just
    19:08
    I know that. So yeah, it kind of just happened organically because we found, you know, people uh were drawn to it and and it it and and as you're, you know, you do what works and like I said, I I I found it worked that when you're hitting shots, you're getting millions and it just kind of naturally led to like the billion being. So then once you do it enough times, then you're kind of have that in the back of your head of, oh, okay, I guess I'll try to work towards that again. Um, and so you start with a baseline and then the actual tweaking and stuff um, usually happens when I see streams of people either avoiding modes or playing modes too much. If I see either of those, then I'm jacking up or lowering uh, points. So >> that must be frustrating to create like
    19:47
    that must be frustrating to create like
    19:47
    that must be frustrating to create like a mode that is super fun and has a lot of stuff going on and then people don't shoot for it because it's either too hard to start or not enough points for it, etc. >> Yep.
    19:56
    Yep.
    19:56
    Yep. >> Um, all right. Next one. Misled YouTube
    19:58
    Um, all right. Next one. Misled YouTube
    19:58
    Um, all right. Next one. Misled YouTube asks, "Wildest unexpected bug or weird exploit?" >> Wildst. Um,
    20:06
    Wildst. Um,
    20:06
    Wildst. Um, I think there was one that was pretty wild. Um, on Metallica when Blackend first got in the game, I think you could drain out of Blackend and hit the add a ball button, but it wasn't lit. But if you hit it, it would secretly just always give you like an addabal. And um someone found that and luckily never never abused it and and it didn't really nobody really noticed it. Um that's a good one. >> Yeah, cuz the the button wasn't lit. Um
    20:36
    Yeah, cuz the the button wasn't lit. Um
    20:36
    Yeah, cuz the the button wasn't lit. Um and it was just a bug where you would hit the button and it would give you an add ball. And so >> bug or secret feature.
    20:43
    bug or secret feature.
    20:43
    bug or secret feature. >> Yeah, it was almost like a secret secret
    20:45
    Yeah, it was almost like a secret secret
    20:45
    Yeah, it was almost like a secret secret cheat code. Um luckily blackened, you know, it's one of the later mol wizard modes, so it's not like something that would affect league night on the regular even. It's not like you're dumping into that in the first 10 minutes. >> All right, next one. Nuclear Black asked
    20:58
    All right, next one. Nuclear Black asked
    20:58
    All right, next one. Nuclear Black asked me, "What final code do you think is your most that you're most satisfied with?" I guess we're going to consider 1.0, but anything that's what you would consider final code. H, that's a that's a good one. Um, I think um I think Foo Fighters is probably my favorite um Final Code just cuz everything is pretty darn balanced and and there's a lot of fun that can be had in every direction and and it's got a good progression. Um it might be a little too hard to start the final Overlord battle. Um, but overall I'm pretty happy with Foo Fighters. Um, Rush I'm obviously very happy with, but it's almost that one's almost overwhelming where if I think about it too hard, I'm like, well, this should really be like this and I could tweak that and tweak that. Whereas Fu is kind of like, no, I'm pretty pretty happy with it. >> Okay, right on. And then as an immediate
    21:55
    Okay, right on. And then as an immediate
    21:55
    Okay, right on. And then as an immediate follow-up to that, Slinger is asking, "What code do you think has a room for most improvements? if you could revisit an older game and make changes now after, you know, years of of programming wis, you know, wiseness has has grown on you. Um,
    22:16
    I don't know. I mean, I think um Led Zeppelin I kind of wish I made the um multiballs objectives matter more cuz right now like when I saw Carl stream that game and he was going for the wizard mode, you basically ignore all the multiball jackpots cuz you're just trying to get through the songs. So >> that I guess I have kind of a regret. I
    22:37
    that I guess I have kind of a regret. I
    22:37
    that I guess I have kind of a regret. I didn't I didn't make the multiballs either. There is one. Mothership multiball actually does help you, but um that one I guess I guess Led Zeppelin. I don't know. >> I I think I feel like skipping content
    22:48
    I I think I feel like skipping content
    22:48
    I I think I feel like skipping content is a good example of like hard to balance thing like for modes that have timers, right? Like obviously pausing the timer to force someone to do it if there's an objective later on in the game that is like exploitable. But then, you know, locking people into like having to shoot shots is like not a perfect solution for that either. But like, you know, it's otherwise it's it's not it's not cheating. But you can't just like time out every mode like in in some games back in the '90s, >> right? No, I I definitely don't let that
    23:14
    right? No, I I definitely don't let that
    23:14
    right? No, I I definitely don't let that fly. That's not a not a thing on any of my games. >> Hell yeah. Um, Busted Chops, you kind of
    23:19
    Hell yeah. Um, Busted Chops, you kind of
    23:19
    Hell yeah. Um, Busted Chops, you kind of already answered this, but you said, does community criticism come into a significant role in terms of updates? I How could it not? Like, people have, you know, feelings on games and they're the ones who are paying for it. >> Yeah. No, it definitely does. But I have
    23:31
    Yeah. No, it definitely does. But I have
    23:32
    Yeah. No, it definitely does. But I have to be you have to you have to be pretty judicious because sometimes there's a lot of noise that you have to filter out where either it's like no, I'm pretty confident like this is actually at least this is how I envision it and I like this and >> you know people are maybe just not
    23:49
    you know people are maybe just not
    23:49
    you know people are maybe just not understanding it yet or maybe it's a minority thing. But then there's other things where if enough people keep saying it, it's like, well, maybe I like it, but maybe there is something wrong with it. So then you kind of look at it. Um, or if people are suggesting things, um, you know, some of them you just physically can't. It's like, that's literally impossible. I can't do that. And then other ones are like, well, yeah, I guess I could do that. Um, and so you just have to kind of weigh the, uh, the options. >> A great filter. Yeah, I feel like
    24:17
    A great filter. Yeah, I feel like
    24:17
    A great filter. Yeah, I feel like Pinsside has so many opinions and it sucks to let some people down, but just because you have an idea doesn't mean that it should be integrated into the game and sometimes there's just a creative difference between the people that are actually designing the game and the people playing it. Um, PinDen says, "What's up? It's the Bone Collector. What's up, Raya?" And Joe Joe the degenerate himself saying, "Hi." >> Uh, all right. We've got uh Nucci has a
    24:42
    Uh, all right. We've got uh Nucci has a
    24:42
    Uh, all right. We've got uh Nucci has a question. And he's like, "What would if you could remaster the code for, let's say, any game." He didn't really specifically say, he just said, "An older machine, but if you could revisit and do a remaster of any game, doesn't have to be a Stern game, which one would it be?" >> Oh, man. There's so many. I mean, I have
    25:00
    Oh, man. There's so many. I mean, I have
    25:00
    Oh, man. There's so many. I mean, I have ideas. It's okay. I always have ideas of um one thing I just in in in life in general and it drives some people crazy where I'm like you know we should change this rule so that if this happens this would happen like just playing a board game or something or whatever or um I'm you know playing an old uh Williams game where it's like man this mode would be so much better if X Y or Z just happened. Um, so I don't Yeah, I can't think of any particular one that would um, yeah, it's I I'm trying to think. I mean, >> all right, we can revisit that one. How
    25:40
    all right, we can revisit that one. How
    25:40
    all right, we can revisit that one. How are you? Do you do you have your favorite butthole picked up yet? >> I can tell you mine.
    25:45
    I can tell you mine.
    25:45
    I can tell you mine. >> I mean, the um,
    25:48
    I mean, the um,
    25:48
    I mean, the um, the Rush one's hard to beat, but um, there's alsorm.
    25:57
    It's not. Mine's Lord of the Rings. >> Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, that
    25:58
    Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, that
    25:58
    Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, that one's That one's good. I still don't understand how the ball like the fork looks like there's too much space. It seems like the ball would fall, but it somehow makes that jump. It's >> Oh, yeah. You mean for Lord of the
    26:10
    Oh, yeah. You mean for Lord of the
    26:10
    Oh, yeah. You mean for Lord of the Rings? Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming that giant, you know, whatever V cut into that just to kind of help make sure that the guide ball goes into the like funnel that is around the ring to get close enough to the magnet that it can grab it. um or just to properly drop it down into the kind of like guiding plastics if it's a like low velocity shot. >> But
    26:29
    But
    26:29
    But >> yeah, that's one of the games that got
    26:31
    yeah, that's one of the games that got
    26:31
    yeah, that's one of the games that got me really into pinball because I I read up the rules and really wanted to get deep into that. In Simpsons Pinball Party were kind of >> Yeah.
    26:39
    Yeah.
    26:39
    Yeah. >> Yeah.
    26:39
    Yeah.
    26:39
    Yeah. >> I mean, I think like you said, Lord of
    26:41
    I mean, I think like you said, Lord of
    26:41
    I mean, I think like you said, Lord of the Rings is a good example of like uh you don't need to know how to play pinball and you will magically make progression towards all of the things that are really fun in the game. whether it be either of the three main multiballs, like it's just starting modes because the ring itself is so like an interesting feature on the game that you want to shoot at it. So, you're already starting modes, right? And then just by playing the game, you're naturally making progression towards these multiballs whether you know it or not. Um, Nuclear Black wants you to put a wizard mode into who done it. I'm assuming you have a bunch of free time to do that. >> Doesn't it have I mean, it has the
    27:13
    Doesn't it have I mean, it has the
    27:13
    Doesn't it have I mean, it has the wizard mode. It's just very easy to get to over and over again. >> Is that true nuclear? I actually haven't
    27:19
    Is that true nuclear? I actually haven't
    27:19
    Is that true nuclear? I actually haven't played Who Done It. I've played uh Safecracker, which I constantly get those mixed up for. I don't know why. They just sound like they are like similar heist related games, even though one's a murder mystery.
    27:34
    Uh Nuclear wants to know if Simpsons is still your favorite game. Uh yeah, probably. It just it does everything I like about pinball of like the goals that you are trying to do. Everything matters. You know, when you're in a multiball, you have to really play that multiball. You have to try to get the supers. You have to try to, you know, get through the different things. It has the perfect amount of like accessory multiballs and other side things. It has the the timer that you're constantly watching and trying to keep going. Um, I I just think it does a lot of things really well. I really like that game. >> Right on. Uh, Jimmy Morgan says, "Is it
    28:11
    Right on. Uh, Jimmy Morgan says, "Is it
    28:11
    Right on. Uh, Jimmy Morgan says, "Is it more challenging to make modes work that are thematically feel good or is it difficult to balance scoring across the game? Which do you enjoy more?" Just to clarify, what thematically works for modes? I think that's we were just talking about Lord of the Rings. So, there's like movie moments that are like built into how the modes start. And I'll use like Ward Battle as an example. So, like in the movie, you know, this one ward like comes over the hill and then they kill it and then all of these other wards come over the hill. And for the game, you have like one lit shot for word battle. And as soon as you hit that, then like every mode shot lights up. >> Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. I
    28:40
    Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. I
    28:40
    Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. I haven't watched the movies that many times or >> Oh, yeah. No, there's there's a few of
    28:44
    Oh, yeah. No, there's there's a few of
    28:44
    Oh, yeah. No, there's there's a few of them. So, um, Sauron versus Gandalf is another one which I like to call two old men beating. Yep. Anyways, so in that mode, you have to hit the left and right ramp like alternatively, and it's very similar to them like battling each other back and forth, and then you have to shoot into the uh, if it's not Helm's Deep, I don't want to call it right, the tower. the tower. Yeah. >> Yeah.
    29:05
    Yeah.
    29:05
    Yeah. >> And then he goes up to the top of the
    29:07
    And then he goes up to the top of the
    29:07
    And then he goes up to the top of the tower, right? And then you have to hit this roving shot which is the butterfly. So you have to kind of capture the butterfly and then you hit the tower again and then you're freed from it. So like there's a lot of that like uh integrating kind of the film into the movie moment. And it's funny that Joe Degenerate is here cuz he has a term for this which I can't remember. Uh if Joe, if you're still here, post it in the chat. But it's it's what he calls like the physicalness the the kineticness of the ball matching movie moments but in like the pinball physical space. >> Yeah. No, that's um yeah, Lord of the
    29:40
    Yeah. No, that's um yeah, Lord of the
    29:40
    Yeah. No, that's um yeah, Lord of the Rings does do that really well. Um, yeah, it's always it's that's definitely one of the harder things to do because um like you mentioned or like maybe the person in chat alluded to, even if you do that correctly and you're like, "Oh, this mode makes sense for this sort of progression." Um, but then you're like, "Yeah, but but" but the problem you run into with a lot of that is like, for example, a robing shot mode. It seems cool in theory. Um but then you find out people just wait till it's on the middle ramp and then they just hit the middle ramp. So, like it's really um you got to balance those sort of things and um and sometimes like on um Star Wars Falling the Empire uh during Death Star 2 um I have it roving a shot and I just omit the middle ramp because I'm like, you know what, that that way I can do my cool thematic thing of like, you know, it's hard to actually do this but you don't just get the gimme. Um, so it's uh, yeah, it's definitely challenging. You know, like on Rush, I think has a lot of the best. Um, I was really happy with those ones. Um, and shout out to Tim Sex and he came up with a lot of the um, ideas for that, too. Um, of like the different modes having their own um, flavor like limelight, like you hit stuff, you're in the limelight, and then your 15 seconds of fame is up and now you got to get back in the limelight. Like, you know, that sort of thing. Um, >> shout out to Sex and Two. That's Tim
    31:12
    shout out to Sex and Two. That's Tim
    31:12
    shout out to Sex and Two. That's Tim Pinballs if you wanted to check him out on the socials. He does a number of pinball related videos every once in a while. >> Yeah. So, I in Star Wars I I um I was
    31:22
    Yeah. So, I in Star Wars I I um I was
    31:22
    Yeah. So, I in Star Wars I I um I was able to do that with some of the new bonus missions like um the speeder bikes mode where you're when you're in the speeder bikes only the fast shots are lit. So, the orbits and the ramps. So, the ones that you know >> Yeah, that's a that's some thematic
    31:35
    Yeah, that's a that's some thematic
    31:35
    Yeah, that's a that's some thematic stuff. Joe chimed in. It's called tea. He calls it thematically integrated mechanical action. >> Like it tucks. Yeah. So, so like bikes,
    31:46
    Like it tucks. Yeah. So, so like bikes,
    31:46
    Like it tucks. Yeah. So, so like bikes, >> you're moving and then once you hit the
    31:47
    you're moving and then once you hit the
    31:47
    you're moving and then once you hit the Luke shot, they split up, right? And so that's like the multiball. Now you have two balls going on. So, um yeah, when whenever I can, it's you always you want to look for that. But like I said, you got to do it with balance in mind because I think that's where a lot of games maybe lose their way a little bit. At least for people like me who care about that sort of thing. Obviously, if you don't care about score at all and you're not a tournament player, then it's a little easier. But if you want to do both, then it it's kind of a a fun and I actually like it. It's kind of like a puzzle. Like I love puzzles and uh well, not actually jigsaw puzzles, but like I love >> puzzles. Yeah, I get it.
    32:22
    puzzles. Yeah, I get it.
    32:22
    puzzles. Yeah, I get it. >> Yeah. So, I really love it when you have
    32:24
    Yeah. So, I really love it when you have
    32:24
    Yeah. So, I really love it when you have a bunch of constraints um and you need to try to kind of fit them all together. >> Well, and you mentioned it's a really
    32:30
    Well, and you mentioned it's a really
    32:30
    Well, and you mentioned it's a really good point that some people are playing because they want progression, right? And some people are playing because they're trying to minmax or trying to get scores. Um, and I think Star Wars is a really good example of this. I'll be honest, I didn't really like Star Wars when it first came out, but if you look at the code updates over the time, like you have added so much genuinely new content to it that the game feels so much more in-depth and fresh. I mean, everything from like Jesus Christ, I'm like I have the list pulled up here, but you know, you've added new missions and modes in the Rebellion update to everything from, you know, uh, new video assets on top of bug improvements. There's been uh whatever you did scoring adjustments and stuff, the whole Luke droids in Lando mode and the mode in the one before that. And and and what's funny is um I was it's it was hard to balance cuz I added these new bonus missions which are really cool content for people to see, but then people also still want to do progression. So they're like, "Oh, this side mode's kind of in the way of getting to my not a Jedi yet." So I was like, "Okay, well how about if you beat the side mode, it counts as an extra mode for getting towards not a Jedi yet." So that was kind of how I solved that issue. So now you you get the best of both worlds. I I feel like I don't I don't have the data to back this up, but I feel like out of all of Stern's programmers, it seems like that you have put the most into games the quickest after release than many of the other titles that have come out. >> I don't know. I think it's it's just a
    33:54
    I don't know. I think it's it's just a
    33:54
    I don't know. I think it's it's just a coincidence. I don't know. I feel like maybe it's just depending on what you're currently working on, what else is going on. And I've just been really lucky where you know Star Wars I've just been focusing on that is you know it's just me on Star Wars trying to get that you know finished or Metallica when I was on Metallica that was my whole year was just you know focusing on Metallica. >> Was there did you feel like there was
    34:17
    Was there did you feel like there was
    34:17
    Was there did you feel like there was internal pressure for Star Wars being kind of like the first Spike 3 release? >> Uh it was definitely Yeah. getting kind
    34:26
    Uh it was definitely Yeah. getting kind
    34:26
    Uh it was definitely Yeah. getting kind of pulled in a lot of directions and like there was the kind of that that um you know we got to really use our big screen and and there was some you know of course there was a whole thing of like but you're not using the whole screen. It's like well actually we are uh just not all the time. Um so in some of the new bonus missions you'll hit the big shots and it'll actually do the full 1080p you know screen. Um, >> I felt that a frustrating comment from
    34:51
    I felt that a frustrating comment from
    34:51
    I felt that a frustrating comment from people because the screen was being utilized for UI elements to like show scoring and combos and all sorts of other stuff that was there decoratively around it in addition to the video asset being in the middle. >> But that's kind of another one of those
    35:02
    But that's kind of another one of those
    35:02
    But that's kind of another one of those things where yep, you a lot of people are complaining about it and it's like at one point I'm like, yeah, I just need to filter that out. But then I'm like, well, and let's see if I can at least make it better. And so that's why the new bonus missions I have all those full screen ones thrown in because I I I found a way to kind of balance where you can show the full video and then after that just show the score. And as long as you only do that every once in a while, you're not constantly hogging the UI because you you don't want your UI like you said you it's nice to have everything. And so that's Yeah. But so that's just like an example of >> and you're creating kind of a pinball
    35:39
    and you're creating kind of a pinball
    35:39
    and you're creating kind of a pinball moment too by like suddenly bringing attention to it because you are utilizing it as a full screen instead of just like UI elements. >> Um chat's blowing up again, man. Making
    35:49
    Um chat's blowing up again, man. Making
    35:49
    Um chat's blowing up again, man. Making me work. Like can I just talk? Can I just talk to raday chat? Jesus Christ. >> Uh what's Brewing is asking what's going
    35:56
    Uh what's Brewing is asking what's going
    35:56
    Uh what's Brewing is asking what's going on? They're asking if you can make scores bigger on Spike games so they're more readable on stream. Ruts Brewing does Ruts Brewing. Why can't I talk this morning? It's too much coffee, which I'm actually drinking what's brewing right now. Uh, >> why don't you um you can you can apply
    36:09
    why don't you um you can you can apply
    36:09
    why don't you um you can you can apply to Stern's um art department and you can help design, you know, make those uh scoring uh animations. Um, >> joking aside that they can increase the
    36:20
    joking aside that they can increase the
    36:20
    joking aside that they can increase the font size internally working for Stern, but like seriously when streamers have like as a you know, you stream yourself and you you go to a lot of tournaments that stream it, is is that something that is in the future possible to have some sort of like for example turning off licensed music is another thing that a lot of like streamers have been like requesting. Do you think there's a world that has like a mode that makes it more stream friendly, whether it be UI related, whether it be audio related in the future? >> Yeah, I mean, all that's possible. It's
    36:49
    Yeah, I mean, all that's possible. It's
    36:49
    Yeah, I mean, all that's possible. It's just you got to come up with what is it actually going to look like? Like how are you going to put the big score? Where are you going to put those scores? Like everything's already designed to be a certain way. So, you can't just like if you know it just takes a lot of uh designing that you have to think about. People don't think like, oh, just make it bigger. It's like, okay, >> right. You can't just artificially
    37:09
    right. You can't just artificially
    37:09
    right. You can't just artificially increase a font size and not have it catastrophically, you know, mess up other elements, >> right? Um, but, you know, like I um on
    37:18
    right? Um, but, you know, like I um on
    37:18
    right? Um, but, you know, like I um on Star Wars, I do have a setting that shows the scores more often because I I know a lot of streamers and tournament players were annoyed that if you're hitting too many jackpots, your scores aren't being shown because it's just constantly whatever. So, I have a setting where if that setting's on, it will it'll make a smaller animation and keep your score tagged below it. So, so I, you know, I I'm trying, but um it's it's not just something I can wave a magic wand. Plus, you also got you'd have to probably go back to the licensers and be like, "Oh, so you know that UI that we sent you that took weeks to get approved? Well, now people want a bigger version of it for like the hundred people that can stream, you know?" It's like it's >> let's let's talk about licensing for a
    38:01
    let's let's talk about licensing for a
    38:01
    let's let's talk about licensing for a second because I feel like >> after seeing behind the curtain of it
    38:05
    after seeing behind the curtain of it
    38:05
    after seeing behind the curtain of it and like you know I work in LA doing trailer stuff and that requires a lot of licenser approval as well when you are modifying assets coming from a large IP. I feel like a lot of people are frustrated like well why didn't you just do this or why didn't you do that like you're the bad guy right? And I feel like it's important to remember that the creative teams are trying to do the best that they possibly can. It's just that when a licenser says they won't do something, your hands are tied. Like it really just comes down to that. And you know, I mean, I think >> I mean
    38:33
    I mean
    38:33
    I mean >> with Star Wars, how could that not be a
    38:36
    with Star Wars, how could that not be a
    38:36
    with Star Wars, how could that not be a good example cuz Star Wars is there so many people you got to jump through to get anything done? >> Yeah. And like like that was a surprise
    38:41
    Yeah. And like like that was a surprise
    38:41
    Yeah. And like like that was a surprise where they wouldn't let us put text on top of the video, right? So then we had to work around that. Um and so you know you just got to work within those constraints and um often times yeah when people are complaining about things it's like well we tried our best um you know is it's we think it's still good like this we have a solution with the constraints and you know it's still it's really fun. So you know cuz if it's not fun then then it's like why what are we doing here? So we always >> Does the video asset not being full
    39:17
    Does the video asset not being full
    39:17
    Does the video asset not being full screen really make it not fun? Like is your experience truly ruined because the entire 1080p real estate of this screen that is 4T away from you and is 12 in wide, you know, did that really ruin Star Wars for you? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's the old, you
    39:34
    Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's the old, you
    39:34
    Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's the old, you know, reality check that that sometimes kicks in of some things are just the way they are and you try to make the best of them. That's that's kind of my motto on life, too, is like just just make the best of the situation. Um there's no need to focus on negatives when there's so much cool cool stuff. >> I have never I've never been able to
    39:53
    I have never I've never been able to
    39:53
    I have never I've never been able to make the best of a situation on John Wick pinball. I just >> I'm sorry. The game is so mean to me.
    40:00
    I'm sorry. The game is so mean to me.
    40:00
    I'm sorry. The game is so mean to me. John Wick himself is just like bends me over and takes takes me to town. >> It was It was even tougher when the uh
    40:06
    It was It was even tougher when the uh
    40:06
    It was It was even tougher when the uh the enemies, you know, blocked your shots. It's like >> Yeah. No, that
    40:10
    Yeah. No, that
    40:10
    Yeah. No, that >> I have learned to like it a lot more.
    40:12
    I have learned to like it a lot more.
    40:12
    I have learned to like it a lot more. Like everybody at Until, you know, when the game first came out and was playing, like it was rejecting Brutal. There wasn't any of the like lights out modes and a lot of the other improvements that they added later on, but uh I feel like most of the people that disliked that game in the beginning now are like actually I kind of like it. So I'm I'm trying to fight the immediate drains rejects and >> you should get XV on on here. I don't
    40:33
    you should get XV on on here. I don't
    40:34
    you should get XV on on here. I don't know if you've ever interviewed >> I would love to have Vicord on. Yeah, he
    40:37
    I would love to have Vicord on. Yeah, he
    40:37
    I would love to have Vicord on. Yeah, he um he did a lot of work on Star Wars too with actually kind of picking some of the video clips and trimming them and talking to me to me with like well this has got to be in Star Wars cuz he's like a huge Star Wars fan. Um so I worked with him a lot and then um of course he's working on yeah John Wick. Um he had ideas for X-Men too. So he's he's kind of all over the map and it'd be fun to you know if you ever get a chance to >> see his process.
    41:03
    see his process.
    41:03
    see his process. >> I'll ping I'll ping Zach. I think that's
    41:04
    I'll ping I'll ping Zach. I think that's
    41:04
    I'll ping I'll ping Zach. I think that's a great idea. Um, but back to you, Miss Le asks, "Video modes, are they bad or just awful?" >> Uh,
    41:14
    Uh,
    41:14
    Uh, I don't mind them. I think they're a fun they're a fun break in the action. And >> name a game with a good video mode. Like
    41:21
    name a game with a good video mode. Like
    41:21
    name a game with a good video mode. Like a really good video mode. And none of this like, you know, Dracula like BSDs. I a game that I thoroughly love, you know, not a good video mode. >> No, I don't like that one because
    41:31
    No, I don't like that one because
    41:31
    No, I don't like that one because there's too much downtime. You're just like waiting. Like I I actually just flip fast because I just want it to be done with and I give up points because I'm not waiting till the last second, >> right? Or like Attack from Mars where
    41:43
    right? Or like Attack from Mars where
    41:43
    right? Or like Attack from Mars where you can't flip fast to get through it and you're just forced to like wiggle your little like fort penis back and forth and you know get through it. The best part about the Attack from Mars wizard or uh video mode is turning them into cows and shooting those. >> Yeah. No, there's some good ones though.
    41:59
    Yeah. No, there's some good ones though.
    41:59
    Yeah. No, there's some good ones though. I um I actually very original. >> Name 15 good with video modes.
    42:05
    Name 15 good with video modes.
    42:05
    Name 15 good with video modes. >> Name 15.
    42:06
    Name 15.
    42:06
    Name 15. >> Yeah. Go.
    42:08
    Yeah. Go.
    42:08
    Yeah. Go. >> I can't name 15. No. God damn it.
    42:11
    I can't name 15. No. God damn it.
    42:11
    I can't name 15. No. God damn it. >> No, just just name a few.
    42:12
    No, just just name a few.
    42:12
    No, just just name a few. >> I don't even know if I could name 15
    42:13
    I don't even know if I could name 15
    42:14
    I don't even know if I could name 15 video modes. Uh >> there was a bunch in the 90s like uh
    42:19
    there was a bunch in the 90s like uh
    42:19
    there was a bunch in the 90s like uh Black Rose has three video modes. Indiana Jones has three video modes. You know, Terminator 2, the original video mode. That one's actually pretty good. The original Terminator 2 video mode. And they kind of like recooked some of them as well, like Indiana Jones is essentially, you know, next generation's wizard or video mode as well. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Mine cart. Yep.
    42:37
    Oh yeah. Yeah. Mine cart. Yep.
    42:38
    Oh yeah. Yeah. Mine cart. Yep. >> Yeah. Um
    42:41
    Yeah. Um
    42:41
    Yeah. Um I'm still trying to think of other video modes. Um are there any aspects of licensing that impeded code development? I mean, I guess we kind of already talked about that with the screen size stuff, but >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean all almost all the
    42:57
    Yeah. Yeah. I mean all almost all the
    42:57
    Yeah. Yeah. I mean all almost all the aspects of it, right? Where you know you um you're not allowed to show certain things at certain times or um certain games like um certain licensers might not even let you show things more than once. Now that really would change >> um the code progression. It's like well
    43:16
    um the code progression. It's like well
    43:16
    um the code progression. It's like well this is a moment so we got to use this once you get one shot. You know you can't keep showing you can't go back to that mode. You can't have it be multiple awards of the same award. Um, so there's those sort of uh things. Is that a is that a James Bond behind you? >> That is a James Bond behind me.
    43:34
    That is a James Bond behind me.
    43:34
    That is a James Bond behind me. >> Nice. Yeah. Yeah, I love that game. That
    43:36
    Nice. Yeah. Yeah, I love that game. That
    43:36
    Nice. Yeah. Yeah, I love that game. That was one that was really had a lot of that in licensers and and you know, Mike and and George really had to solve the the licenser puzzle of how in heck are we going to make a game with all these constraints? And they they did it. Can I can I ask you a rumor that I heard about this game or maybe something that George was talking about where they were having potential issues of the women being used as multipliers in it because they didn't want the women to be like objectified in that way. But George went to bat and was like this is the most important part of the game and that's like a really powerful element of it. And then that pushed it through licensing. Oh, I have I have no idea about that particular anecdote, but I definitely can see a lot of, you know, George saving the day of uh wait, let me just explain this to these guys and and then they'll get it. Yeah. >> Feel like George has a really good way
    44:25
    Feel like George has a really good way
    44:25
    Feel like George has a really good way of of communicating pinball concepts to people that don't know pinball concepts. And if there's anybody that doesn't know [ __ ] about pinball, it's pretty much every licenser, I would say. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah.
    44:38
    Yeah. Yeah.
    44:38
    Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Um I I mean
    44:41
    Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Um I I mean
    44:41
    Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Um I I mean it just dep and it's probably I was just trying to think if I could have a counter example of well actually this licenser was really into pinball and there probably are some but I I just didn't >> sure well I mean I've heard Metallica
    44:51
    sure well I mean I've heard Metallica
    44:51
    sure well I mean I've heard Metallica the band is really into pinball. Didn't they kind of like uh not vote but was wasn't the reason that the Metallica remaster happened is because the band was like really on board? >> Yeah. No, they were totally on board. Uh
    45:04
    Yeah. No, they were totally on board. Uh
    45:04
    Yeah. No, they were totally on board. Uh for sure. Yeah. you know, that was a really, you know, um there wasn't a whole lot of hoops to jump through. Um just likeness approval really for for art and video assets. >> Sure. Which is the easiest of approvals
    45:18
    Sure. Which is the easiest of approvals
    45:18
    Sure. Which is the easiest of approvals to get. Uh Sout has a pretty good one. He says he loves that the updates have names now and they're not just version numbers. Do you know when that started or who was responsible for that uh kind of like iteration? >> Yeah, that that started fairly recently.
    45:32
    Yeah, that that started fairly recently.
    45:32
    Yeah, that that started fairly recently. Um I think that was our software manager Mark Guidorelli's. Um he kind of championed that idea. >> Responsible for Stern Insider Connected
    45:39
    Responsible for Stern Insider Connected
    45:39
    Responsible for Stern Insider Connected isn't it right? >> Um
    45:43
    Um
    45:43
    Um no Tanya does most of the Insider Connected stuff but um yeah I don't know when that started but it's it is really cool. Um and um sometimes it's hard for me to come up with a name though. So, you know, like like I'll admit Rebel Rebellion, not the best name, but that almost made it better because it was so bad. Like, so >> it it goes from being bad to being
    46:05
    it it goes from being bad to being
    46:05
    it it goes from being bad to being amazing in like, you know, just a few seconds. >> Um,
    46:12
    Um,
    46:12
    Um, Desable wants to know when they're going to get new Pokemon code. Not his game. >> It's coming soon. It's coming. Calm
    46:21
    It's coming soon. It's coming. Calm
    46:21
    It's coming soon. It's coming. Calm down, everybody. I know this is like the biggest game ever, but it's just like, you know, still got to make the code. >> For sure.
    46:28
    For sure.
    46:28
    For sure. >> Still takes time.
    46:29
    Still takes time.
    46:30
    Still takes time. >> Uh,
    46:32
    Uh,
    46:32
    Uh, this were there any weird rules with the Foo Fighters IP? I mean, that's a good one because the Foo Fighters like the artwork and everything about them fighting aliens is, you know, I don't know, a lot of people may not know that the Foo and Foo Fighters meant like UFO fighters, at least as far as I know. I think there was they were really um open to almost all of our ideas. I think the only anecdote I remember was the original the Foobot was going to be the Grobot and they were like, "No, let's have it be more inclusive, right? It's not just Dave Gro." So they >> Sure. But I get why Grobot I mean it
    47:04
    Sure. But I get why Grobot I mean it
    47:04
    Sure. But I get why Grobot I mean it sounds like you're saying robot. This is a pretty obvious pun there. So it makes sense. It makes sense.
    47:14
    Yeah. Refried Noodles just said that
    47:14
    Yeah. Refried Noodles just said that Dave Gro was against calling it the girlbot. So there you go. Yep. >> Uh Pat the Weirdo wants to know if you
    47:21
    Uh Pat the Weirdo wants to know if you
    47:21
    Uh Pat the Weirdo wants to know if you congratulated Waya for winning the SPC event at Pinball at the Zoo. >> Oh. Uh yeah. Yeah, we um have an
    47:27
    Oh. Uh yeah. Yeah, we um have an
    47:27
    Oh. Uh yeah. Yeah, we um have an internal Slack channel where we all congratulated Nick at Stern cuz he uh he kicked butt. He also knocked me out of the Illinois State Championships. So I have I need to get back at him for that. >> Yeah, you got to get revenge on that. Uh
    47:41
    Yeah, you got to get revenge on that. Uh
    47:41
    Yeah, you got to get revenge on that. Uh since so many of the Stern P employees are tournament players, do you guys have like uh internal rival rivalries? >> Um not really. Um there there are fun
    47:53
    Um not really. Um there there are fun
    47:53
    Um not really. Um there there are fun little um you know popup tournament nights or like um just like sometimes after work you'll see uh Nick and Andrew jamming on something or um you know just fun little things. It's and I I don't think there's anything uh too serious. Um but some of the scores are pretty ridiculous. >> Yeah. Well, I mean you've got some I
    48:16
    Yeah. Well, I mean you've got some I
    48:16
    Yeah. Well, I mean you've got some I mean yourself included currently sitting in the uh I think top eight or in the eighth position for the Stern uh road tour or championship. Um Heo from Norway is saying >> I I haven't gone to as many. Um I think
    48:29
    I I haven't gone to as many. Um I think
    48:29
    I I haven't gone to as many. Um I think I've only gone to three this year which is why I'm yeah eighth or ninth right now. But I'm >> Well, roller coaster just asked, "Does
    48:35
    Well, roller coaster just asked, "Does
    48:35
    Well, roller coaster just asked, "Does Stern encourage you to go out and play tournaments or do they just like kind of not involve themselves with that?" >> I think they're just very supportive of,
    48:43
    I think they're just very supportive of,
    48:43
    I think they're just very supportive of, you know, how I want to do with my free time. Um, so, you know, I told them when I joined, I'm like, "Hey, just so you know, I like to go to a lot of tournaments, so, you know, I might need a lot of Fridays off." And they're like, "Hey, as long as you know, you have the PTO or even, you know, we might be willing to work with you." Um, >> yeah, it's still community engagement. I
    49:02
    yeah, it's still community engagement. I
    49:02
    yeah, it's still community engagement. I mean, you're as a representative of Stern and being at a pinball situation, it's not like you're going to Fiji, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's
    49:11
    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's
    49:11
    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's it's a nice opportunity for sure. And honestly, I think I'm the only one that even can handle that that much pinball. You know, you don't see uh Keith going to tournaments as much anymore once he started working in pinball every day. But I'm I'm kind of built different where I kind of don't have a limit. So, I'll just keep going to things and work in pinball and watch pinball and play pinball and talk pinball. >> For sure. And I mean, I did I didn't see
    49:35
    For sure. And I mean, I did I didn't see
    49:36
    For sure. And I mean, I did I didn't see if you've done a a stream for Follow the Empire, but like for Rush, you know, you did a really amazing kind of comprehensive kind of breakdown of how the rules worked. It's just really neat seeing someone who's actually involved in the project that is being played how to play it, you know. >> Yeah. So if you if I haven't had any on
    49:53
    Yeah. So if you if I haven't had any on
    49:53
    Yeah. So if you if I haven't had any on my like my own channels um partially because every time we do a code update we do like a nice solid 45 minute um uh stream on Stern's YouTube. So if you go to Stern's YouTube you can watch um Fall Vampire gameplay and and I always try to talk as I'm doing things to explain things. So they're they're kind of like a bunch of little tutorials. Um so you can always check out Stern's YouTube >> which is which is cool. Don't get me
    50:20
    which is which is cool. Don't get me
    50:20
    which is which is cool. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't like seeing Stern's stuff, but there's something about and I think that a lot of people will probably agree with me that Stern's presentation for that stuff is a little like I don't know sterile, you know? There's something about when you're as an individual talking about your own game that feels like really like sincere and it would be cool to see that. I mean, I know that I guess what you can or can't do in terms of streaming a game that has just come out is is maybe not on the table with Stern, but uh I appreciate their trimmed down version, but for people that are like kind of Twitch streamers and Twitch watchers like myself, I really do wish that they would allow something like that. Uh Zonic has a really great question. >> I don't think there's anything not
    50:58
    I don't think there's anything not
    50:58
    I don't think there's anything not allowing it. Um I just >> haven't had the the time or the
    51:03
    haven't had the the time or the
    51:03
    haven't had the the time or the opportunity. And um and like I said, I I always have fun on those on those streams. And um I I think the you can learn a lot from them. You know, we always have a bunch of cool Jedi Magnet saves. People always wanting a tutorial of how to do that. It's like just watch us watch us play it. We uh we'll show you. >> Once you figure the timing out, it's not
    51:23
    Once you figure the timing out, it's not
    51:23
    Once you figure the timing out, it's not too difficult. And it's really easy if you can just spell Jedi all the way and it just does it for you. Um so yeah, Zonic has a really good question. and he says, "What's the most challenging item that has inhibited developer velocity in in terms of table development with the exception of licensing IPs?" So, like what's something that was just like a total like unexpected speed bump, you know, when you're just grooving programming on a table? >> Uh, I mean, other than licensing, that's
    51:51
    Uh, I mean, other than licensing, that's
    51:51
    Uh, I mean, other than licensing, that's kind of a big that's like n that's a lot most of it, right, is the the licensing. Um, but um I don't know. Sometimes it takes a little longer to get your um your white woods or whatnot. You know, they they only have so many made, so it's like you can't have or or it's not the designer is still tinkering with it and so the programmer hasn't had a chance to get it yet. Um or um artwork is probably the other biggest bottleneck of there's so many games that all need artwork for the LCD screen that your game, you know, might be in a log jam and so you're waiting on on the art and so that you can't really program a mode without the art. I mean, you can, but it's it's harder and and then you got to put it in anyway before it can ever ship. So, you know, waiting on artwork is probably the big one. Um Was converting to spike 3 a hurdle or did did enough of the code kind of structure on the back because it was it was ARM processors before and then it was a custom Raspberry Pi for Spike 3 if I remember correctly. >> Yeah. So working on Star Wars which was
    52:57
    Yeah. So working on Star Wars which was
    52:57
    Yeah. So working on Star Wars which was the first uh Spike 3 hardware. Um like all the guts of it was Spike 3. Um >> they still use the same node boards
    53:04
    they still use the same node boards
    53:04
    they still use the same node boards though, right? Or >> well not the CPU board but the field
    53:09
    well not the CPU board but the field
    53:09
    well not the CPU board but the field >> under Playfield ones. Yeah.
    53:11
    under Playfield ones. Yeah.
    53:11
    under Playfield ones. Yeah. >> Yeah.
    53:11
    Yeah.
    53:11
    Yeah. >> Yeah. I was worried working on Star
    53:13
    Yeah. I was worried working on Star
    53:13
    Yeah. I was worried working on Star Wars. I'm like, "Oh man, how am I going to do Spike 3 stuff?" Um, and at first we didn't even have, you know, I had to I basically programmed it as Spike 2 and then at some point all I literally just had to flip like a switch like in the code and then it was like Spike 3. So the system guys, yeah, they they did a really good job. Uh, you know, Mark Reedelli was part of that, Mark Pinacho, uh, Mitch. Um, >> what are all the programmers M names?
    53:40
    what are all the programmers M names?
    53:40
    what are all the programmers M names? like what's going on? You got to change your name to Mayday. >> Um so yeah, so they um they made it
    53:47
    Um so yeah, so they um they made it
    53:47
    Um so yeah, so they um they made it really, you know, abstracted it so that it's all backwards compatible and like all the interfaces you're used to just work. Except now they work better because they're Spike 3. >> Sure.
    53:56
    Sure.
    53:56
    Sure. >> Um the only work I had to do for Star
    53:59
    Um the only work I had to do for Star
    53:59
    Um the only work I had to do for Star Wars was I had to re-encode all the videos to H.265 because the um Spike 3 can support that now. It also supports H.264, but why use the worst one when you can use the better one? So >> yeah, I forget. I think X6 wait 265 has
    54:12
    yeah, I forget. I think X6 wait 265 has
    54:12
    yeah, I forget. I think X6 wait 265 has better like frame reordering for compression and how it handles like I frames and B frames, right? >> It's just it's just a lot more
    54:19
    It's just it's just a lot more
    54:19
    It's just it's just a lot more efficient. You get a lot more um detail for a lot less file size and >> but it pulls more CPU in terms of its
    54:25
    but it pulls more CPU in terms of its
    54:25
    but it pulls more CPU in terms of its decoding process though, right? Is CPU bottleneck an issue at all on any of the Spike systems? >> Um yeah, it definitely uses a little
    54:32
    Um yeah, it definitely uses a little
    54:32
    Um yeah, it definitely uses a little more, but the Spike 3 is has more than the Spike 2, so it it can handle it. You know, I don't think you'd want to do H.265 265 on a Spike 2 even if Yeah, you could. >> But I've heard the potential of it being
    54:43
    But I've heard the potential of it being
    54:43
    But I've heard the potential of it being backwards compatible where you could put a Spike 3 board into a Spike 2 system and then get some of the benefits like the HDMI output and stuff if I remember correctly from the Fall the Empire uh release party. But then again, this was a while ago and I don't know how much of that stuff was confirmed or not. >> Yeah, I don't I don't really know and
    55:01
    Yeah, I don't I don't really know and
    55:02
    Yeah, I don't I don't really know and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to speak to any sort of >> future plans. Uh, Slinger has suggested
    55:07
    future plans. Uh, Slinger has suggested
    55:07
    future plans. Uh, Slinger has suggested that you may have to change your name to Mundavidson in order to match the programmer M scenario. Yeah. >> Refi Noodle uh from the Netherlands is
    55:17
    Refi Noodle uh from the Netherlands is
    55:17
    Refi Noodle uh from the Netherlands is asking what language do you code in? >> Uh, we use mostly C++.
    55:24
    Uh, we use mostly C++.
    55:24
    Uh, we use mostly C++. >> There you go. The one the most popular
    55:26
    There you go. The one the most popular
    55:26
    There you go. The one the most popular programming language on the planet. Um, so this is this this last section is kind of like where the future of pinball kind of resides. And I'm curious, this is more of a conceptual one because there's a trend now that in order for a game to be good, it needs to be like 45minut play time with just bazillions of things to do in it. And I think it really takes away from the concept that a game can be kind of simple but enjoyable. Um, or at least, you know, I guess with street level pinball, right? Isn't that uh you know I think a good example of that is TNA and also Elwin's uh Bond 60th or 50th I forget what the the year anecdote for that is but do you where do you see pinball evolving in terms of its like rule set in the next like decade? >> Um I mean it really depends on who's
    56:17
    Um I mean it really depends on who's
    56:17
    Um I mean it really depends on who's who's writing the rule set. you know, the Dwight team's constantly evolving his ambitions with, you know, Venom had leveling up and then D and D took that to a whole another level. >> I'm sure their next game's going to be
    56:30
    I'm sure their next game's going to be
    56:30
    I'm sure their next game's going to be even crazier with whatever stuff they have planned. Um and then the on the other side, you know, um Elwin's just going to keep doing his thing where he he has a lot of stuff up front and then a lot of things that kind of all work towards later things. Um it's really it just depends on the programmer um and um designers as well. You know, also if if you have a layout that's um pretty friendly, you're going to need deep code or else people will get bored bored with it because it's like, oh well, there's only four, five shots, you know, you need that deep code. Um if you have a game that kicks your ass, then maybe maybe that's the opportunity to to have a simpler code because you're probably not getting very far in it anyway. I love I love that answer on a number of levels just cuz a lot of I've been saying for a while like people are they're grouping companies into like I only like Stern games or I only like JGP games or games or whatever. And I think that really it should come down to the very specific game or what you said the specific team cuz like maybe you do like uh you know more fan layouts, maybe easier shooting stuff like Brian Eddy's layouts or board layouts or maybe you want something that's got convoluted rules that you really want to just explore and take the time to learn. It's not really a tournament game unless you've taken the time to already learn it like Ellwin's team or whatnot. So, you know, I I I think that's a a good philosophy is like pick the teams like you would pick a director, you know, that you like their types of films, maybe their style, and if you like that style of pin, then you're going to like whatever their next game is, maybe. Would you say that's a fair translation? >> Uh, yeah, I think so. I think um yeah,
    58:14
    Uh, yeah, I think so. I think um yeah,
    58:14
    Uh, yeah, I think so. I think um yeah, there's just no blanket answer, right? Sure. That's very true. Uh, all right. So, outside of Insider Connect stuff though, do you think that there's something that's like unexplored territory for Pinball for how code and the player like actually interacts? Like outside of like leveling concepts? >> Uh,
    58:36
    Uh,
    58:36
    Uh, I don't know. I mean, how >> there's nothing you've been like, man,
    58:40
    there's nothing you've been like, man,
    58:40
    there's nothing you've been like, man, it'd be so cool to integrate this programming concept that is like outside of pinball, but like I wonder if we could make it work in pinball.
    58:52
    H
    58:52
    H Yeah, I mean, I don't I I don't know. I think there's um there's you know probably a lot more unexplored um moving things like um just moving targets in general and like what what they tried with pinball 2000 I think you know maybe that can be reexplored with where it's kind of like you're it's still pinball but you know that those are the only things I'm I'm kind of thinking of. I don't >> know. I mean, Gomez did uh whatever,
    59:24
    know. I mean, Gomez did uh whatever,
    59:24
    know. I mean, Gomez did uh whatever, Return from Mars, right? Or what? Not Revenge from Mars. So, you've still got his uh technology available, right? >> Does Gomez have the patent for Revenge
    59:35
    Does Gomez have the patent for Revenge
    59:35
    Does Gomez have the patent for Revenge from Mars sitting in his office? >> No idea.
    59:39
    No idea.
    59:39
    No idea. >> Um
    59:41
    Um
    59:41
    Um I don't know. Hopefully, this is not a a not okay question. And Spludgs wants to know how much AI is being used in code that he at his own job he feels like he's writing less code and using more prompts and then modifying it afterwards. >> Oh, like actually writing the code using
    59:59
    Oh, like actually writing the code using
    59:59
    Oh, like actually writing the code using AI. I I don't know what each developer I I I don't even know what our policy is of what I would be able to say about that even. >> Sure. I mean, I think that as long as
    60:10
    Sure. I mean, I think that as long as
    60:10
    Sure. I mean, I think that as long as the end user isn't being affected by it and it's not generating like art assets that eventually it's inevitable that AI is going to be used, at least on a coding level. >> We would never use AI for any final
    60:23
    We would never use AI for any final
    60:23
    We would never use AI for any final thing that people see, right? That yeah, that's no good. >> But like I mean, for example, setting up
    60:28
    But like I mean, for example, setting up
    60:28
    But like I mean, for example, setting up an AI prompt that handles retranscoding a bunch of assets from H.264 to H.265 265 or from their original lossless, you know, ProRes 444 or whatever to H.265. Like, how can you criticize a batch processing of technology that is being used? >> We definitely are looking for for ways
    60:46
    We definitely are looking for for ways
    60:46
    We definitely are looking for for ways to improve any of those sort of things. For sure. Yeah. Make things faster and more efficient. >> For sure. Because then it makes better
    60:53
    For sure. Because then it makes better
    60:53
    For sure. Because then it makes better pinball. And isn't that the like end result that everybody wants? >> Yeah, I would hope. It's what I want.
    61:00
    Yeah, I would hope. It's what I want.
    61:00
    Yeah, I would hope. It's what I want. Uh, all right. So, I know that Raymond's got a heart out because you have a programming meeting, right? Which is exciting. Feel like that's kind of neat. >> For a meeting on Tuesdays. Yeah.
    61:08
    For a meeting on Tuesdays. Yeah.
    61:08
    For a meeting on Tuesdays. Yeah. >> Can Can you give just a quick like
    61:10
    Can Can you give just a quick like
    61:10
    Can Can you give just a quick like synopsis of what like the integrated team set feels like when you step into a meeting? Like is it a Slack meeting and you're just like sharing ideas or do they go down a a list of like bug reports and you try to like go to help to help bug hunt on the platforms? I mean our our our Tuesday meeting we just go through each game and the status of code of um you know when's the next release for this game? What's any issues with this code? What are you working on? And then if there's any um things that come up that all teams need to know about, you know, those get brought up then. Or if um if there's new system work that's being done, that gets brought up. um new insider work or like hey there's this new insider feature if you guys want to use it in your games now you can send property values so then we can do quests with these things and that other things it's just really anything that is top of mind that week um or that people want to share and then >> sure like I said every every week you go
    62:06
    sure like I said every every week you go
    62:06
    sure like I said every every week you go through all all the current games statuses >> I'm sure people asking so that they can
    62:10
    I'm sure people asking so that they can
    62:10
    I'm sure people asking so that they can catch and add Pokemon to their Pokedex has been on that making call a few times
    62:20
    Um, this is a good example of our previous question that I asked in terms of like programming to to stuff. I just wanted to jump back to that real quick because Reffried Noodle says realtime multiplayer across multiple machines spread over the world. I think that's an I mean you had it Fastreak had this right back in 9594 whenever NBA Fastreak came out. I do think like obviously people could exploit this, but between friends like being able to like real time compete seems like a a possible thing. >> I think right now, you know, you have
    62:49
    I think right now, you know, you have
    62:49
    I think right now, you know, you have leaderboards, so you play a score and then you see the score for people. So, I don't see why you couldn't play a score and have someone else see the score while they're playing. You know, I don't >> think of the tension of seeing someone's
    63:01
    think of the tension of seeing someone's
    63:01
    think of the tension of seeing someone's score build up in real time. You think you're doing good and all of a sudden they're going billions. If I knew, I don't really know because I'm not like on the insider side of things, but and if I did know, I wouldn't be able to say anything in particular. So, but as a enthusiast, I do think that's a cool I think it would be that would be fun. >> So, confirmed right here. Raymond said
    63:21
    So, confirmed right here. Raymond said
    63:21
    So, confirmed right here. Raymond said that there's going to be four player uh co-op uh adventure mode in Fall of the Empire coming soon. I'm just kidding. He did not say that before the internet trolls get out. Um well, [ __ ] man. Thank you so much for this insight into uh the your personal development of how you ended up at Stern, your programming philosophies. Uh chat, I if you've got any other questions, now is your moment to to fire away. Um assuming Ray will ever come back on the podcast again, which I hope you will. Um yeah. >> Oh yeah. Thanks for having me. Um and it
    63:57
    Oh yeah. Thanks for having me. Um and it
    63:57
    Oh yeah. Thanks for having me. Um and it turns out my meeting was actually at 3, so I'm 10 minutes late. My bad. >> Okay, you got to go. Which one of these
    64:03
    Okay, you got to go. Which one of these
    64:03
    Okay, you got to go. Which one of these three games would you put in your uh lineup behind you if you had to? Raven, Raven, or Raven? >> Uh, the second Raven.
    64:11
    Uh, the second Raven.
    64:11
    Uh, the second Raven. >> Good choice. All right, everybody.
    64:13
    Good choice. All right, everybody.
    64:13
    Good choice. All right, everybody. Thanks so much. We're going to go raid. Say goodbye to Ray A and uh apologize for being late to your meeting. Have a good one. Bye.
    64:35
    Does your life lack purpose? Have you wondered is there anything more? Join the cult of pinball.
    64:47
    The great pyramid accepts all into the cult of the great order. I am Dr. Cornelius Picoststein, imperturber and acolyte of the great pyramid. Join us on an ever ending quest to spread the joy of pinball.
    65:08
    Have you just received your great creation kit? Help