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Pinball Party Podcast Ep 11: Just Another Pinball Party

The Pinball Network·video·1h 16m·analyzed·Nov 10, 2022
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TL;DR

Secondary market pricing guide and sales etiquette discussion with guest Joel Engelberth.

Summary

Pinball Party Podcast 11 features host Jason discussing secondary market pinball pricing, haggling etiquette, and valuable mods, with guest Joel Engelberth (host of Just Another Pinball Podcast and co-host of Triple Drain). Key topics include realistic pricing for games like Deadpool (Pro) and Jurassic Park (Premium), which mods add resale value (color DMD, mirror blades, shaker motors, art blades), and community etiquette around buying/selling. The episode emphasizes respect, honesty, and avoiding manipulative sales tactics.

Key Claims

  • Pat Lawlor retired from JJP or pinball in general

    medium confidence · Jason mentions this as 'a little bit of news' but provides no detail or confirmation

  • Alien is one of the best pins made and tends to build a strong parasitic bond with its owner

    medium confidence · Jeff S in listener email praising Alien's integration, audio, and community

  • Deadpool (Pro) brand new retails between $6,700 and slightly over $7,000

    high confidence · Jason providing specific retail pricing for haggling example

  • Jurassic Park (Premium) brand new MSRP is approximately $8,700–$9,400

    high confidence · Jason citing his personal purchase experience and dealer comparisons

  • Color DMD mods should bring $400–$500 value to a machine

    medium confidence · Jason's opinion from experience with used pinball machines

  • Art blades are one of the most valuable mods for LCD-era games and should be stock

    medium confidence · Jason's personal assessment based on visual impact and resale value

  • Ryan Tanner built an acrylic pinball machine for his students

    high confidence · Listener email from Ryan Tanner with YouTube link; Instagram handle provided as ThePinballScientist

  • Alien is no longer number one on Pinside (contrary to earlier claim)

    high confidence · Jason correcting himself: 'the last episode when I was talking about how Alien was number one on Pinside, which it is not anymore'

Notable Quotes

  • “don't be a fuck don't be a prick be nice to people be honest”

    Jason (host) @ N/A — Core philosophy for secondary market transactions; emphasis on respect and community etiquette

  • “Alien is as much of a cult pin as tbl it is super fun coded well has seamless lcd integration the best audio of all time”

    Jeff S (listener) @ N/A — Strong endorsement of Alien's code quality and audio design; establishes it as tier-1 cult classic

  • “I would probably offer $6,400 and just kind of see what happens”

    Jason (host) @ N/A — Practical haggling example for overpriced used games; demonstrates reasonable negotiation range

  • “Selling fear of missing out. I mean, yeah, that's a quick sale. That's a tactic... but it really leaves a bad taste in people's mouths”

    Jason (host) @ N/A — Criticism of manipulative sales tactics common in the secondary market; frames FOMO as anti-community

  • “I lowered the price and I put that in the bump, but the price is still like $1,000 over MSRP... You're an asshole”

    Jason (host) @ N/A — Direct critique of deceptive pricing practices; establishes strong community standards

  • “Once you join the Alien pinball community, you will probably seek out the first version to celebrate the differences”

    Jeff S (listener) @ N/A — Indicates strong collector community interest in Alien variants and version history

  • “part of me thinks that maybe me going through buying and selling so quickly is just an addiction, a dopamine rush”

    Jason (host) @ N/A — Self-aware reflection on personal collecting psychology; establishes credibility for secondary market analysis

  • “You kind of reviewing, I think you were kind of reviewing or whatever. You're talking about turtles... there's a fucking turtles pinball machine”

    [name withheld pending review] — Joel Engelberth's Turtles episode was Jason's first exposure to Just Another Pinball Podcast during COVID vaccine drive

Entities

JasonpersonJoel EngelberthpersonPat LawlorpersonRyan TannerpersonJeff SpersonPinball Party PodcastorganizationThe Pinball NetworkorganizationJust Another Pinball PodcastorganizationTriple Drain Pinball PodcastorganizationDeadpool (Pro)

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Strong emphasis on honest communication, reasonable pricing, and respect in buyer-seller interactions; criticism of manipulative FOMO-based tactics

    high · Extended 'Figure It Out' segment devoted to haggling best practices, feedback on listener behavior, and anecdotes about positive vs. negative transactions

  • $

    market_signal: Specific pricing data for recent Stern releases; Deadpool Pro $6,700–$7,000 MSRP; Jurassic Park Premium $8,700–$9,400 MSRP; used examples show $400–$800 discounts typical for home-use condition

    high · Jason's detailed pricing examples from personal trading experience; Jurassic Park trade at $8,400 (home use), mid-eight prices ($8,000–$8,500 range) for used premiums

  • ?

    product_concern: Turtles pinball has screen printing defect (digital printing off vs. expected quality standard); raised by Joel on Just Another Pinball Podcast

    medium · Jason recalls Joel's Turtles review discussing playfield art printing quality issue

  • ?

    collector_signal: Alien pinball has multiple versions; collectors actively seek limited edition and first-edition variants; strong community interest in version differences

    medium · Listener email mentions seeking limited edition or previous version of Alien; Joel's focus on Turtles screen printing suggests variant/edition awareness among audience

  • $

    market_signal: Godzilla Premium pricing inflated on secondary market; Jason reports Godzilla minimum was $10,500 at peak; current market trickling in stock, prices normalizing

    medium · Jason mentions Godzilla premiums 'trickling in stock from here or there' and historical pricing at $10,500 minimum during shortage period

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.229

0:00
the pinball network is online launching pinball party well here we go episode 11 of the pinball party podcast
0:30
You know, I can't wait to add another one to this, if that ever happens, just so I can say 111. And then from then on, I'll say 112, 113, 114, Kale style, who looks to count in sequence, 115, we'll go 116, and so on. It's once you get to 120-something, you can't really have fun with it. Who cares, right? This is episode 11. That's way in the future, if it ever happens. if I survive. The way this world is going, I won't. Right?
1:04
Man, that's cynical. Good way to start this episode out on. Well, hey, thanks for joining me. Thanks for coming back. Thanks for everyone that's wrote in. Too many emails last week. Good problem to have. Thanks for everyone writing. We'll get to a couple of them. But what are we going to talk about this week? Do we have any news? Pinball news. No? Hey, still waiting on Bond.
1:27
Topper. Everyone's talking about the $2,000 topper again, including myself. Pat Lawler, retired from JJP. I guess that's – or retired from pinball in general. There's a little bit of news.
1:38
@ N/A
game
Jurassic Park Premiumgame
Aliengame
Lord of the Ringsgame
Godzilla (Premium/LE)game
Tron Progame
Metallica (Pro)game
Ghostbustersgame
Turtlesgame
Sterncompany
JJPcompany
Pinsideorganization
  • ?

    product_concern: Catalog of valuable mods established: color DMD ($400–$500), mirror blades ($75–$100), shaker motor (~$100), art blades (~$100), game-specific mods (Tron lighted ramps, Metallica Total Light Show, LOTR Path of the Dead/Palantir)

    high · Detailed breakdown of mod ROI for both DMD and LCD-era machines; Jason's trading experience establishes these as measurable value-adds

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Alien was previously #1 on Pinside but is no longer top-ranked; Jason corrects earlier statement; still regarded as cult classic with strong community attachment

    high · Jason explicitly states: 'the last episode when I was talking about how Alien was number one on Pinside, which it is not anymore. Surprise, surprise.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Just Another Pinball Podcast gaining traction as entry point for casual players; Jason discovered it during COVID vaccine period; Joel noted as popular Twitch streamer for Pinball Network

    medium · Jason credits Joel's Turtles episode as his first podcast exposure during re-entry to hobby; Joel now invited as guest on major show; Triple Drain also mentioned as active content

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Pat Lawler reportedly retired from JJP or pinball industry; described as 'a little bit of news' but minimal detail provided

    low · Jason mentions casually: 'Pat Lawler, retired from JJP. I guess that's – or retired from pinball in general. There's a little bit of news.' No source or confirmation given

  • ?

    community_signal: Discussion of secondary market buyer profiles: flippers (high-price LEs), casual players (discounted Stern Pros), and active traders (Jason's model); different feedback expectations per profile

    medium · Jason advises checking seller feedback history to determine if they are flipper, casual, or active trader; different haggling approach for each type

  • ?

    design_innovation: Ryan Tanner built educational acrylic pinball machine for students; transparent construction visible to classroom; represents accessibility/educational angle for hobby

    high · Listener email from Ryan Tanner; YouTube video link provided; described as 'very, very impressively built'; Instagram ThePinballScientist; website thepinballscientists.com

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Alien praised for 'coded well' and seamless LCD integration; suggests modern code quality varies by manufacturer and affects game collectibility

    medium · Listener email: 'super fun coded well has seamless lcd integration the best audio of all time'

    • Yeah, there's just not much yet. We're still waiting on releases. We're waiting on people, well, more so locations to get Bond in stock. So to fill that void of what's going on in pinball, people like myself and the guests we have on coming up soon will help fill that void. so if we're not going to talk about news what will we talk about we will talk about well two things that kind of correlate with each other a lot of feedback was you know you should expand on the figure it out segment you know there's there's a lot of people out there who are either new to the hobby or just really like the whole secondary market thing so we'll do kind of an expanded figure it out other than that let's just stop with the table of contents just in case i don't get to it but let's start with things i can talk about first listener voicemail you know i don't read these just to you know psych myself up or like look at how good i am at doing what no i usually if it somehow involves what we're going to talk about or what we have talked about feedback on things it's not just listen to the nice things people have to say about me because if i did that i'd read some other ones that didn't have quite so many nice things to say about me let's check in with listener emails. This first one comes from Tanner Walters, who says, in the last episode, you said there wasn't any news. I thought I'd give you something that people might get a kick out of. These are my students reacting to an acrylic pinball machine I built for them. Enjoy. And he sends a YouTube link. It is awesome. It's honestly heartwarming to see these kids react to this video of a very, very impressively built, honestly, literal acrylic pinball machine. The insides have the guts of a machine, but I'll put the link in the show notes. You should really check it out. I really can't describe it aside from that, and it's a short, quick video. I would also recommend you follow him. He does other pinball stuff. His Instagram is ThePinballScientist, so you can reach Tanner at ThePinballScientist. He also makes a pinball scorekeeper mod and em attract mod for ems at the pinball scientists.com please check out tanner's work it's awesome thanks for writing in i really appreciate it this next one comes from jeff s hey jason heard you were talking about alien today and we're considering getting one go directly to jail buy the alien and fall in love with pinball again alien is as much of a cult pin as tbl it is super fun coded well has seamless lcd integration the best audio of all time a unique major toy and great use of lighting. He has the first version of Alien and has even more cabinet and playfield lighting, including the screen on the playfield, as you, or if you don't, no. Alien is one of the best pins made and it tends to build a strong parasitic bond with its owner.
    4:26
    Once you join the Alien pinball community, you will probably seek out the first version to celebrate the differences. Yeah, and you know, the last episode when I was talking about how Alien was number one on Pinside, which it is not anymore. Surprise, surprise. I was saying that the people I personally know that have owned it like it so much that they want to either get the limited edition or like he mentioned um the previous version has which is you know similar to like the american pinball where they kind of you know change the um what you would expect of a pinball machine you know the size and kind of the curves and that stuff um and one last note he made he was one that emailed in a while ago and said i should change the name which i've been saying i'll eventually change the name to penis penis party podcast uh he said all right i have a new program name to run by you so don't have to call it the penis show. He said, figure it out. Figure it out. That's what the show is about. Jason's always busy figuring it out. You hope your listeners can figure it out. All right, I'll shut up about the name now that I was able to get the good idea out of my head. You know, that's not actually a bad idea. And you brought too much logic to that idea. So it's not going to work. It makes too much sense. I have people, I've actually gotten a text from someone who picked up a pinball machine from me last week who, he wouldn't mind me reading this. uh let me pull it up it was on his on his way he was about five hours away as he was making the drive he sent me a text just leaving quick trip don't want to be on the next quote figure it out quote should be there in a few so we can i think read between the lines and know why he stopped there but uh i guess i'm happy and sad to know that my the figure it out thing is affecting the way people buy games from me um or trade actually maybe it's a good thing you know i'm not not here just like trying to talk shit about everyone in the secondary market it's just kind of common courtesy anything in the muse market insert um you know a video game video game system in here i don't know or anything uh a wooden horse that you want to buy on craigslist yeah just hey here's the golden rule treat others how you want to be treated don't be a fuck don't be a prick be nice to people be honest what a good segue we've accidentally made into this week's expanded version of figure it out figure it out so i normally i would pick a very specific thing of when buying or selling or communicating about a pinball machine either on pin side or craigslist or facebook you know here's some some main do's and don'ts but some of the questions i got since you know the last few episodes and even actually via pin side someone who you know maybe i should be charging for this but i i actually you know took it as an expression of i guess respect for my opinion since I've done it so much. Whatever. So someone emailed on Pinside saying, hey, I'm looking to buy this Lord of the Rings. The seller says it's home use only. I was wondering if I could send you a few pictures and some information, get your second opinion on it. It seems like you do this a lot. I'd really appreciate it. I was like, oh, I mean, that's nice of you, but I guess, sure. Can I do some work for you, I guess? Hey, I was happy to. Looked at some pictures, gave them some opinions on things of, hey, does play count really matter, all these kind of things that people really stress out about. Disclaimer, there are many, many of those out there that have done this way more and way longer than me. Hundreds of games, flipping everything from eons to now. I've only been doing this for a few years. I guess the only thing that makes me, that's special, that's not the right word, maybe somewhat different is I don't keep games long, so maybe I go through these faster than others. I don't get beaters to fix them up I don't get LEs to flip them I don't look for deals just to make money I'm just playing games and sometimes I get bored with them fast or I get to the wizard mode fast Toy Story or something like that and just move it on once you beat a game sometimes you're sick of it and in general honestly my personality is I just get bored easy with stuff you didn't ask but when I get into something I put 100,000% into something to the point, you know, maybe it's borderline obsessive, but it's a double-edged sword. It makes me good at things, but also makes me absorb information or whatever really fast. Okay, I'm over that. That's boring. Even though the week before, I'm like, this is the best thing of all time. Oh my God, I can't wait. It's going to, you know, it's going to change my life forever. I'm always going to have it next week. Get the fuck out of here. So I go through games a lot, which gives me an interesting perspective because I've had people so many times reach out, craigslist pin side you name it of if i bought a game a couple weeks later they notice it for sale again usually the same price they sold it for give or take 50 bucks maybe gas money maybe i put a mod on it whatever they're like why'd you sell it so soon was there something wrong with it one like who the fuck cares it's my game i'm selling like i'm i could explain what i just explained to all do you here's this minute description like did you really want to hear all that did you really want to hear my reason? Probably not. I mean, you had some sort of maybe emotional attachment to this thing, which I mean, I get, but I also, as I get older, tried to detach myself from physical objects because they don't bring long-term happiness. Again, deeper conversation for another time. But I have my own struggles with stuff and with things and with addictions, honestly. And part of me thinks that maybe me going through buying and selling so quickly is just an addiction, a dopamine rush of finding a game, getting a good deal, going, buying it. And once you get on the road, like two and a half hours into a five-hour drive, like, Jesus, why did I do that? And then you're driving home with it. You get home. You open it up. First couple games, like, yeah, great. And then you find that thing, like, oh, shit. Maybe I don't like it as much as I thought. What have I done? Well, there's a glimpse into my life, a long story of why I maybe have some experience that may differ from others. But, yeah, I've had people ask, you know, give me more than just the tips and tricks of, you know, whatever. Some examples they gave of what's a bargaining rule? Should you go over a certain amount? Should you go under a certain amount? And that's really a tough question to answer. But I guess I'll give my opinion on it, which it really depends. Let's take an easy example. Let's take a somewhat recent stern.
    10:41
    Something that's kind of in the middle. Let's say a Deadpool Pro. Now, a Deadpool Pro, brand new, right, is going to be somewhere between, now this is something some of you may or may not know, between $6,700 and probably a little over $7,000. Why does it matter? One, it matters what your dealer is going to charge.
    11:01
    Two, it matters if you're in the same state. Are you going to have to pay tax? Are you not? Three, will the dealer charge shipping or not? The relationship with the dealer, you name it. There's a few variables. But let's say, on average, a brand new Deadpool Pro is $6,800. So someone lists a Deadpool Pro on Pinside. Let's say it's a great home use only, 100 plays. Let's say, again, plays is another matter. 100 plays, brand new, it's great. And they're charging $7,000 for it. All right, if this is about six months ago or in the depths of the dark pandemic where everything was batshit crazy, okay. but let's talk in general, non-COVID-ish, because it's never going to go back to the way it was, but let's say they have it listed for $7,000. That's too high. Yep. Can you haggle? Yeah. What would I do? I don't know. If someone had it listed for $7,000 and I really, really wanted the game and you couldn't buy a brand new inbox, let's say right now, I would probably, and this isn't insulting because it's just a weird situation, I would probably offer $6,400 and just kind of see what happens if now if they write back and say oh that's astronomical i paid this and yeah well okay you know you can take a look at the market archives on pin side and look at don't look at that medium price that never use that i mean use it as like a somewhat barometer like ish like it'll maybe at least bring you to planet earth but that's not what you should use and here's another tip when you're going to buy a game from someone and they have it listed again let's say Deadpool and they have it listed for $7,000. Don't email them saying, well, the pin side median price says it. First, look at their feedback. Have they done this a while? Then don't say that shit. It's just going to piss them off and it's rude. It's assuming that you as the buyer somehow know this better than them. I bet they've probably looked, so respect that. Another good tip on how you should haggle price, look at the feedback of the person you're buying or selling from. If they have equal or more, assume that they're probably knowing what they're talking about. Now you can go further and look at their list. And if it's all like LEs and it's way above MSRP, okay, they're a flipper. So assume that they're going to be looking for a higher price. If you look at them and all their like Stern probes in the last five years are like 500 bucks below MSRP, you're working with someone who's more like me, who's just like, oh, I'm just in the hobby. I don't want to lose too much money, but I get it. It's a used price. It's all that. So this is a Deadpool pro example, let's say. Let's go to a very wild example right now. How about a Jurassic Park premium? Those prices are weird right now.
    13:41
    All right. So a brand new premium will be, again, kind of anywhere between $8,700 and like $9,400, honestly. And whoever bought it, depends on the dealer, the tax, where they bought it, all that. Let's say, though, it's just MSRP of, I'm just going to say $8,800 because I've bought them at various prices, brand new. $8,800, brand new Jurassic Park Premium. You can't buy it right now, new in box if you want it, and everyone's listening for like $10,000. It's not. I'm sorry everyone out there who's selling and buying Jurassic Park Premium and thinking, it's Jurassic Park. It demands this. That's emotion. That's not the market. Here's what the market is kind of around me in the Midwest. I bought a home use only, great condition, basically brand new, 8,400 bucks yep 8,400 and that to me is kind of the right price for a good premium when I traded it out what did I trade the value for 8,400 because I'm not a fuck and before that about six months before that I had not six months three months before that I had a Jurassic Park premium as well what I sell it for mid-eighths again sorry for all those out there asking for like high nines and all that I mean sure I guess but really it's lower than that so that's a tricky one where the title is like, oh, it's Jurassic Park, so it has to be a lot. Well, okay. I mean, the market and supply will, you know, the market will even itself out. But if the question is, how do you haggle on a tricky one like that? My first advice is if someone's asking for like $10,000 on a standard Jurassic Park premium, let's say no mods, just good to go. No valuable mods. I'll get to that in a second, but just, you know, no mods, but great condition. Perfect. And they're listening it for $10,000, I would say don't even email. Don't message them because the right price is about $8,500-ish, maybe even a little lower. I mean, you're really going to haggle them low. If you want to do the kind of meat in the middle, offer them $8,000 and that's insulting, that's too much. But if someone has it like if it starts with an $8,000, I think you're fair to message them and tell them exactly what you think, $8,500, something like that. Now, if you really want it, fuck it, just go buy it. But those are tricky. And that's similar with Godzilla premiums. They are trickling in stock from here or there. So if you want to find it, but a premium is a little harder. So I don't have an exact, oh, it's okay to haggle 10% or below or above. It's just not a magic number. But if you're seeing someone who's charging way more than you probably think and you don't want to go that high, I wouldn't even engage. Or if someone has it really low, and I'm not talking like really like right in the meat I'm talking like really low check their previous history and it could be sketchy but if they have it at a price where it's like oh my god that seems too accurate oftentimes honestly it is if you see my prices or when I'm you know trading value it's like oh that seems correct yeah it is I'm not trying to justify it I'm just I'm rare the only time I've ever charged more than MSRP for a game was a Godzilla premium during the whole like oh my god the minimum was like $10,500 and they sold it for, I won't even say how low, but low.
    16:57
    So how much to haggle on a price, man? You got to be kind of intuitive and read the room, quote unquote, as much as you can. So maybe that helps, maybe that doesn't. Don't insult people, but also don't tell them you know the market better than them, but check their feedback, look at your kind of own history and work with them if you can. I mentioned valuable mods and And that's something that is not, I wouldn't even say it's a point of contention. Here's kind of my opinion from experience of dealing with used pinball machines. Let's say it's anything before LCDs, DMD era-ish, which is my, you know, quote, bread and butter, whatever. Here's the valuable mods for that. A color DMD.
    17:42
    A set of, well, before LCD, probably mirror blades. is shaker motor. Kind of anything beyond that is going to be game specific. So in general, if someone's got something just full of shit, you know, just extra plastics, all that, sure, sure, sure, take it or leave it. But, you know, a colored DMD should bring a good $400 to $500 value. It should to a machine. Mirror blades, sure, you know, like $75 to $100. I think that's worth it. Shaker motor as well, you know, roughly $100. I think those are good. Now, if we talk about a specific game, here's a here's a couple very specific mods that do bring value the lighted le lights on tron ramps on a tron pro because the premium the ramps have the light that on a tron pro will absolutely bring value another for sure value bringer would be the total light show mod on a metallica pro absolutely have value because that changes that game significantly another this is kind of a tricky one, but the Path of the Dead mod on A Lord of the Rings oftentimes will, but it kind of depends. I've had one without. I've built my own, all that, but that one can usually bring a little money. Speaking of Lord of the Rings, the Palantir mod will also generally bring money.
    19:01
    Beyond that and again that just my opinion on a few of those games Mods beyond that are like hey you not going to be able to charge for Lord of the Rings because it has every figure in the world thrown in it and lighted art blades Some of that stuff just starts to look like too much, and it's too much, and you're not going to get value. But color DMD, you bet. Mirror blades, yep. Shaker motor, probably. Everything else, eh. Game specific. Once we get to the LCD era, now what mods really bring value? um now it comes less in my opinion i would say the only two that i really care about these days are art blades and generally the manufacturer specific art blades first and then second something like tilt graphics sometimes the tilt graphic ones are actually better but good art blades i think those should honestly just be stock going forward it really it changes the game it's one of those mods where i've shown my wife before and after specifically like on Ghostbusters. She's like, what are you doing? Why do you have the play field on some paint cans on the ground? And then I show her. She's like, oh, that wasn't there by default? It looks like it's supposed to be. I'm like, yeah, right. I think art blades bring a good value. You know, roughly $100, give or take. Even though they're about $90 to $110, it takes a little bit of work to put those in. Same with mirror blades. Same. I think those are a little easier because you're screwing them in instead of sticking them on with sticky.
    20:24
    So blades of some sort. Shaker motor. I'm kind of you know falling out of love with shaker motors personally but that's just me uh sometimes you know uh think of it this way do you think the hardware on the machine likes to you should be shaking all the time and the screws falling out and mechs i don't know and sometimes i don't want to feel the vibration but i think in general both of those hold their value beyond that i mean we don't really have colored dmds okay here's the elephant in the room sorry toppers right i i guess yes those bring value um the official ones they bring value here's why even if you don't care about them which i generally don't you can resell them on pin side usually for pretty close to the msrp i mean probably 100 bucks off but so you can value that pretty close even if you don't like them but for me personally and like what's in the game aside from the topper you're not really looking at you know colored dmds anymore any back box stuff those have all been fixed with leds things are loaded with toys I guess if you love the game put a ton of mods in Godzilla but no matter what you put in there you probably shouldn't expect much return and I wouldn't pay for much unless it's something that's literal value that you can sell for money shaker motor art blades just bring value toppers sure my last point to all of this is I guess is the most figure it out point of this and it's to those people out there guys and gals that think they're you know God's gift to salesmen of, all right, you're going to want this one. This is the one to get. Cash on the glass. You'll never see something like this one. If you're in the market, this is the one. And then they have it listed like three grand above what it should be. Get out of here. Figure it out. You didn't just suddenly, oh, you're not going to believe it. Oh, you've been looking forever. Selling fear of missing out. I mean, yeah, that's a quick sale. That's a tactic. Being in sales, technical sales myself, sure, you can do that. It really leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, and anyone that has any intelligence sees right through it. And usually it's not from a place of malice. You're not ill-intentioned, but it's annoying as shit. You know, the cash on the glass, oh, I really don't want to sell this one. Oh, hurry up before it's gone. Or they lower the price and they put that in the bump, but the price is still like $1,000 over MSP. I lowered it again. I'm doing you a favor. No, you're not. Man, just stop. Knock it off.
    22:45
    Here's a suggestion for all those wondering about Hagel. Don't deal with people like that. I've lowered the price. I've just done you a favor. You're an asshole. How about that? That's what's going on. Don't, you know, pure and simple. You are selfishly looking only at your side of this. You don't care if you're taking advantage of someone because you want to make a quick buck. You don't give a shit. And that's fine. But if we can start weeding those out of kind of the community, there's a place for them. Sure. I mean, hey, more power to you. Do your thing. but that doesn't scream a community type of person. Yeah, let's get that guy who's always flipping games and taking advantage of people. That's who I want to work with all the time. That feels good. Or they don't disclose something that's wrong with the game when they sell it to you. And then when you get it, they're like, oh, well, I don't see the big deal. Clearly you didn't because you didn't tell me about it. And when I say something, you're like, oh, well, this is how it affects me. I don't care how it affects you. I can understand. I see how this is a one-way conversation. but you can sometimes spot that from a mile away depending on this person is listing games and how they're communicating it to you so that one these magic pin side salesmen out there fucking figure it out figure it out figure it out figure it out as i like to do i want to end this kind of little bit of anger rant with a positive thing and the positive i would say is the same person that i mentioned earlier that came and picked up a ghostbusters from me just last week who had it completely figured out.
    24:11
    How figured out did he have it? Well, he was a recommendation from a friend of mine. He said a week ahead of time, this is when I'm going to be there. How does that work for you? Works great. He asked, cash cool, cash use check. What? Cash will work fine. Great. All right, I'll leave it this time. I'll shoot you a text. What happened? Shot me a text when he left. Shot me a text when he was on the way. Shot me a text when he was a quick trip. And he showed up ready to go. Came with his muscle. He knows what I'm talking about. She knows what I'm talking about. Hope you're enjoying your D&D. Had a great conversation. Talked about stuff for a while. You know, he mentioned how he's been listening to Neon Dale. And honestly, man, it always feels good to hear that. And his favorite song is Highway.
    24:56
    Highway, drive me. Four leaf, guide me. Swallow. I got a bitter pill for you. You know, cash, all hundreds, nice envelope, perfect. Took off, sent me a text later like, hey, thanks again, everything works great. You know, that always feels good to know that you made someone happy and it's all good and it's kind of like a closure to the sale. So again, nice, easy, completely figured out. Well, that's enough of me talking by myself. I am excited to have my next guest join me. this fella i will nominate as one of the nicest if not nicest guys in pinball the host of just another pinball podcast one of the co-hosts of triple drain podcast both here on tpn a popular streamer for the pinball network on twitch and just an overall awesome pinball guide to the community please help me welcome mr joel engelberth welcome joel thanks for joining me yeah happy to be here on this lovely Wednesday during work hours or can I not say that I highly doubt but that anybody that I know works yeah but no yeah let's go for it at your work at my work listen to this podcast I get a lunch hour yeah yeah it's we're eating lunch we just won't actually eat well podcast satiates me and pinball I don't know about you yeah I've learned never to eat food in front of a microphone. Yeah, I did. Your wife and you did that when you did your chip test, and I approve of that. That was... Well, you're the only one. There's someone who... An email that I didn't read today that did not quite approve of it. So I'm either A, going to double down on the chewing, or I'll basically very much point it out. Well, hey, man, thanks for joining me. Let me give you... Even though you're my guest, and I want you to talk more than me, let me give you... I think I hinted at this via text, maybe a month or so ago of like when I first heard you, um, I was in why it's why I will remember it is because I was on my way to get my first, um, COVID vaccine shot. And I had to drive. Cause remember when it was like, when it finally came out, everyone was like, oh my God, can I get it here? Can I get it there? Oh my God. You know, everyone wanted, I had to drive a couple hours. Cause like, yeah, juice me up. I'm not waiting. Like I don't want to die. So I drove up there and I had, it was right when I was coming back into, I took like couple year break and I was out of the game. I had no pinball machines. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what podcasts exist anymore. The first one I found was just another pinball podcast. Oh, that's awesome. And the one I heard on the way up there was you kind of reviewing, I think you were kind of reviewing or whatever. You're talking about turtles. You had just got it. And I was like, oh my God, there's a fucking turtles pinball machine. Holy shit. So you kept me company on my way to get my first COVID shot. wow that's i'm glad that somehow my name is forever remembered as yeah oh covid shot joel yeah yeah got it well at least the positive side of covid sure sure yeah i'll take it and what struck out or what you were talking about it was the art because you had a play field with right like the screen printing was off printing it was digitally printed and it was not good yeah and i was like whoa these are the problems these days okay cool but like the way you know you said a common attitude about it i don't know since then i had seen you on um i think streaming and then when you know you and i first kind of quote unquote talked was i was mowing the lawn and it was like a few weeks before we were going to record cosmic this this album we did in denver and we were preparing like every day just like practicing practice and you guys were like doing some tom talk segment and i was i was literally mowing my lawn on the riding mower and like oh if anyone wants to do like a little like segment, I was like, and I was like, oh shit. Okay. I gotcha. Okay. I stopped mowing the lawn. Cause like, oh, why not? I'll go in. Cause for me, it's just, you know, it's just second nature to me. I went inside, recorded it in like 10 minutes or whatever, sent it to you. And you guys were like, holy shit. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So triple drain, Travis, Tom and I, we have a great time on that podcast. And to be honest, we have no idea if anybody listens. I mean, it's just, it's, I do. Yeah. It's well, I appreciate that. Yeah. And I mean, we're just joking around. And obviously Travis and I we talk a lot and Tom Tom is the wise one, you know when Tom when Tom talks you you listen
    29:26
    If he's gonna say something it's worth listening to and we just started I don't remember exactly who mentioned it but they're like we need to maybe set aside some time every every episode to just let Tom talk and And there we go So Tom talks, but I said it totally as a joke if you know if somebody wants to record an intro on this, you know, let us know. And that's what you, I mean, you blew me away. I remember, I remember I was in the Chick-fil-A parking, like drive-thru. Nice. And I checked my email and I was like, what? And I'm listening to this. And I, I mean, it was professional. It was funny. I just was expecting somebody to just, if anybody was going to submit something, I thought it would be just a nowhere near the quality of what you sent us. And I, I was dying, sent it to Tom and Travis. They thought it was hilarious. and then you went on to make every other jingle that's in our podcast so thank you very much for being a part of triple drain oh of course and i wouldn't do it for just i mean i love the podcast i really do um i think the mix between you three like you said tom is like when he talks it usually means something he doesn't always talk um and then you know the banter between you and travis is always great uh and it's all good you know i don't want to boost you up too much but it is well thank you yeah yeah and um then when you were you're like oh can you do an intro I was like, sure. And I think it was still that night or the next day. But then when you were the triple combo, which you got to do that more. I asked Dana. That was Dana who did the girl voice in that, my wife. I was like, hey, come in here. I didn't even tell her what it was. Like, say this thing. She's like, why would I say it? I'm like, say it into this mic.
    30:58
    And as you said it, and I played it for her later, she's like, shit, what are you doing? No, the triple combo, I think it's my favorite jingle. It's also probably our best segment. And unfortunately, we don't do it often because we record every two, three weeks. And normally there's enough news to talk about that we realize like, crap, it's been an hour and a half. It's been two hours. Like we should probably wrap this up in a triple combo where we really break down the game three ways. I mean, it's it's dedicated. Like you're looking at a half hour easy and we want to do it right. We know people like it. So we know we need to do it more. We really do. It should probably be its own spinoff thing at this point. But it's the best intro. It's the best intro you've made. So, yeah, thank you very much. I agree. It's one of the best segments as well because I remember the Mandalorian one. Again, surprise. I was mowing the lawn when I was listening to the Mandalorian one of you guys talking about. It was most revealing to me when I think it was Travis and Tom talking about the way they would play it in a tournament, which to me, I'm like, I just hit the center. I mean, what else would you do in that game? And it's helped sometimes when I'm on site playing that game, which is not often that comes up. Well, you're here today to help me review Stranger Things. But before we get to that, I want to and everyone else wants to get to know your balls. Oh, yeah. OK, let's do it. We are getting to know your balls. You know, I have kind of a revolving list of questions. It's like 15 to 20, and I pick whatever. We'll see how many we get to. But I change over time as some of these come up. And let's just get right to it. For you, do you prefer to play pinball on location or at home? At home, 100%. Yeah, I just love location play. Don't get me wrong. But with two very small kids, the chances of getting out and being gone, It's just I'd much rather just play at home when they're asleep. So, yeah, yeah. Because we just play whenever I want. Those games that I see in your background, is this like upstairs, downstairs? In my basement. OK, cool.
    33:03
    All right. When you're playing pinball, what are you more excited to get? Multi ball or extra ball? Extra ball. I suck. So, I mean, I need the extra balls. I look forward to the extra balls. My entire game plan when trying to get through a game is how do I get to my next extra ball? So extra ball absolutely gives me more joy than multi-ball. All right. Do you have a favorite era of pinball? Modern.
    33:31
    Don't get me wrong. I enjoy a lot of the older games, and I can have a lot of fun on them. But just the modern stuff, to me, I look at pinball as a very social activity, and I want to play with other people. And I know the LCD screen and the fancy light shows and all that do a much better job of drawing new people in to play than, you know, games that are just about score.
    33:56
    So that's at least at least in my home collection or games that I borrow. Those games get played way more than some of the older games I had. Yeah.
    34:05
    Well, speaking of older games, this happens more in older games. Do you like, love or hate fixing things on games? um i used to love it i got into this hobby buying broken games and and that was just the only way i could afford it buy the broken game and i love the ability to just come down here and tinker and there's a point of pride i bought an eight ball deluxe that was literally dead and i had to replace so much in that and to get it working and i mean the pride that i had at the end of having a fully working game was incredible um i really really enjoyed that um but now on these modern games you know i just i just want them to work so when something's broken it's normally like ah crap now you know like is this this might be outside of something that i i can fix so um i used to love it now i don't i'm i just like having games i can play i can i can relate since you mentioned uh used to do that with beaters do you have any horror stories of the secondary market anything that was just like, oh my God, I can't believe this happened?
    35:11
    Not. So my one hoard, like when I think of selling or buying games, the worst feeling I've ever had was actually selling a game. And it was when I sold my Hobbit. And I sold it. I drove two and a half hours up. It was actually a trade. I was trading Hobbit for three other games. No. Yeah, it was a three for one. And we had already loaded up all three games. And it was right. I mean, we had spent well over an hour or something loading up three games into the minivan. We had to take the head box off one, all this stuff, the back box off one. I mean, it was a whole ordeal. And then it was just at the end, like, okay, here we go. We've set up Hobbit. Let's turn it on. Let me show you a few things. I go to turn it on and it didn't turn on. And so this feeling of like, holy crap, where do I even start on this? You know, because this is a newer game. It's a computer. Like what, you know, am I going to have to unload all these games? Do I like, I was just this feeling of despair. And we pulled out a multimeter and started checking things. Long story short, I had forgotten that on J.J.P. Games, the cord, even though it's behind a panel that's screwed on, the main power cord actually unplugs. And so that's all it was, was the main power cord wasn't fully plugged in. So, you know, 30 minutes of troubleshooting all the complex stuff. Yeah. And it ended up being. Did you check if it was plugged in? Plugged it in further and boom, fired right up. But that's like, that was, luckily every game I bought, I've been lucky that they're as described, whether good or bad. But selling was like, oh no.
    36:48
    That probably went from like just deep depths, stress to suddenly amazing relief. Oh, just plug it in. Yes. It just, okay, God, thank God. And a heavy ass game at that. Yes, exactly. and the time and unloading and it was just and the cost behind it i just but all the that's that's the fear of the the newer games is sometimes you know when things go wrong i just it's so much easier to troubleshoot some of the older stuff but yep um what is a mod that to you is valuable if you're like a used game or you think oh i value that mod so if i was to buy a game and the mod was already on it yeah um that's a good question uh like i i'm a big fan of stern art blades so if they already have those installed that's great that that's probably something i was gonna install anyways um same thing with the shaker motor sure i'll take it be happy to do that um pin stadiums i know i i like them but i would never i don't want to pay extra for them because i've actually made my own. So I don't know if somebody replaced if it was an older game and they went ahead and swapped everything for LEDs. That's something I probably would have done anyways. So there you go. Those are all mods I I respect that are common mods. OK So in a game do you value the theme or the actual gameplay more Wow The longer that I been in this hobby 100 gameplay When I first started all I cared about was theme you know because you have that idea of you going to get one game what's a you know when i was first got in i was researching turtles i was researching simpsons batman you know themes that i cared about and the longer they've gotten played you know what i've realized is i want to play my games i don't want to just look at them so if you only care about theme you know grab a game that you think's a theme that you love and a game that you think looks pretty and just let it sit there in the corner but to me i want a game that keeps drawing me back in and that's where you know i've had games that are amazing themes but it just the shots or the game didn't really keep me coming back. So it left. Yeah. Speaking of what's your favorite game right now? Could be your favorite game of all time. Could you be like right now? I'm just, Oh, I love it. My favorite game still is TNA total nuclear annihilation. I've it's just, I, that game, there's just something about it. The music, it doesn't get old. It keeps drawing me back in. I love playing it with other people. Um, Scott is continually adding to the code. So I feel like I have a game that's still being developed even, which is awesome. And even being developed with your name in it. Is that correct? Yes, I am super happy about that. Scott is such a nice guy and I've met him in person a few times and talked to him and he's been on my stream and all this fun stuff.
    39:43
    But yeah, I suggested something. I suggested to him that it would be awesome if when you hit the spinner right now, it counts how many overall spins you have during a game. but I suggested, hey, some of these older games have it where it'll count how many spins you get in one hit, like a spinner rip. And I told him it would be really cool if you did that in your game and had like a spinner rip champion. And long story short, he did it. And he set my name as the high, the default high score, which is, I mean, that's what's, the dude's so nice. He's such a great guy. But TNA is right now still my overall favorite game. And I'm going to get to the last question in a second here. But speaking of TNA.
    40:22
    You called me the other day. Again, hey, you're mowing the lawn, right? I was mowing my lawn. Yeah. And actually, when you called, I don't even know if I told you this. I was in the – my basement has these stairs I have to turn to get games up. It's a – wow. It's a whole podcast. I could talk about how this has to happen. But I had a Ghostbusters balancing, and my phone was buzzing. I'm like, oh, okay. But I had my AirPods in because I was listening. So I was balancing this Ghostbusters when I was like, hello? but you called to uh talk about tna and your love for it and all this but i almost bought one last night and the only reason i didn't and i still plan to was that i was at a work event and you know past code for those who work in software whatever it's just the same old story now that covid's kind of lightening up you go into the office sometimes it's kind of weird you go there and then you just join a zoom meeting anyway it's like what yeah yeah so we go there yesterday and if I could make it to this guy's house by 4 p.m. I could do it but he had some plans at night and at work I don't know about everyone else out there but I don't always love the like after work dinner stuff or the like so I often because I'm like an hour and a half away from one of our sister offices I often will like dip out at like three to miss traffic or and so I had to play it by ear but like if it was if my the team I managed was like only some of them there and I could get out early I was gonna be like oh I gotta get home early and white lie to go pick up TNA yeah that's I was going to do, but actually I had a good time seeing people, and I was like, I can't make it. So I almost had one, and we could have almost talked about it today, but I don't quite. Hey, you'll get one. Yeah. No, on your last podcast, I can tell you're right on the edge. You're debating it, and we talk pros and cons. You're pushing me over the edge, man. Yeah. I'm very curious. I'm like, you're going to know in a day or two whether or not that game's already ready to be sold or you're hooked. Yeah. And I'm excited to see that journey for you. It may be very short-lived or you may be locked in. I don't know, but I love it. I love the game. I sold it once myself and immediately regretted it. And it's the only game I've ever sold that I bought back. And that kind of told me that, I mean, I know that's common for you. Yeah, I know. For me, like, whoa, what is that like? Yeah. But that was to me like, okay, I know that feeling before. And yeah, if I had to weed it down to like one or two games, that would be the last to go probably. Okay. So this last question, no matter how it's answered, is not a knock against any designer, any distributor, anything. It's just opinion, right? So if T&E is your favorite game, what is your least favorite game?
    42:48
    Oh, Lord. Least favorite game. Well, if I lean into like Triple Drain and the hate mail I've gotten for saying it, Halloween, man. And I really, really have struggled with that game. I've tried it and I will continue to try it anytime I see it. And I just can't. I can't experience the game if I can't hit the shots. And the middle shot is the thing that's rejecting me over and over again. So I don't know. That would probably be one of them.
    43:24
    But, yeah, that's – I'm trying to think. I don't know. There was a few, like, no offense, but like Hot Wheels. I borrowed Hot Wheels and it just didn't click with me. That was one game that Zach with Flippin' Out let me borrow. And when he said he was going to come pick it up, I was like, thank God. I was ready. I was ready for it to be gone. And it just, that game is very score based. A lot of the appeal that bring people back in is keeping your RPMs up and keep going and keep going. And I just, I don't care. Like I just want progress. I just want to see more of the game and experience more moments. and that just there was a lot i liked about the game but that was one game that i was like you can have it take it back i'm ready for the next yeah that's the most i think cut to the chase comment when you start feeling about a game i don't care it's like it's it's you're mentally checking out like for certain shots like especially yeah score we're like there's certain games where like if there's so many hurry ups for me personally every shot's a hurry up like after one like yeah so what like i don't you know for for me i like jurassic park where like i mean there's the uh the missile shot you know but other than that and some of the time stuff that game to me just kind of screams like yeah the heart the the modes modes you know are are hard you can take your time but you can take your time you don't have to always hit the rest he's like all right you have 10 seconds you better hurry up and hit it like yeah you'll get a little bonus for doing faster but i like that in that game i totally i mean at the end of the day these are just toys and no one's making you play them and the only exception to that is like i do stream i stream and so I tell myself, all right, I'm going to play this game for two plus hours. And when you're an hour or even 45 minutes in and you're like, oh, geez, I got an hour more. I got to play this thing or grind away at this thing. And I started to feel that with Toy Story. But to be honest, now that Toy Story is gone, I do miss parts of it. There are parts of that game that I really enjoyed. And if I see one on location, I will happily go play a few games on So it's such a weird thing that we do. That's for sure. It's surprisingly one game that we have on location, Toy Story. And that's where I play it. And I'm, you know, it's like really good candy. Oh, I love it. But I don't want to eat it long term. But every time I go there, I at least play a game or two. That Duke Caboom rant, man. It'll pull you back in. I love it. Feels good. And my location right next to it is Rush. So I play Rush. And, you know, Rush has, it's like you're playing a game when you're playing Rush. I'm like, oh, all right, I need a little palate cleanse. I'll go play Toy Story and whatever.
    45:56
    But, hey, let's get on to what we're going to talk about today. It's a very interesting game, I should say, just in the overall market, in the pantheon of pinball. It's just a very, it's a strange, quote-unquote, story to how this game went from straight trash to one of the most coveted games of the last five years, and that's Stern's Stranger Things.
    46:20
    I knew about the game, you know, after it came out. And the same thing, when it first came out, everyone's like, the rules are weird, it's not much here, it's really clunky, the plunge is lame, the Gorgon shot, is that what it's called? Demogorgon. Demogorgon, yeah, the Demogorgon shot. It never works, it's totally busted, there's all the negatives. And I remember playing it on location at Pinball in Minneapolis, and my first thoughts were, yeah, I still think the plunge, we'll get to that in a bit isn't the greatest but man as soon as that ramp came down and the light started hitting i was like whoa yeah oh boy here's pinball this is what it feels like i remember when i'm doing like a battle of power or adam's family back in the day we're like what they you do this um so my first impression were a whole just the just the mood you know and i ended up getting a premium right when it was like in between people hating it and people like oh wait It's great. So it was like normal price for like a month, maybe a month. I think I traded Attack from Mars remake plus a bunch of money for it with a guy in Green Bay. Got home and I'll talk about it a second. But that was my story. I had a premium for a short while. You had a pro. Is that correct? Yeah. Zach had let me borrow a pro. And so I had one early on, early on when they were out and available. Oh, I was actually. So what had happened was I had ordered a Turtles from him. And this is back when like Turtles had just come out. This is back when people kind of expected to get the game when they ordered it. You know, yeah. So Turtles had just come out. I placed an order with Zach for it. And and he's like, hey, there's some delays. Unfortunately, you're not going to get one of the first orders. I was like, OK, well, I don't have anything to stream then. He goes, well, I actually let there was a there was a tournament in Kentucky where he gave them a Stranger Things to play for the tournament. and he goes, I actually let one of the guys in the tournament take that home. He goes, if you want to go pick it up, you can. I was like, okay. So I drove down to Kentucky and picked this game up just to be able to stream it. It was like two hours. It wasn't bad. But I went and picked this game up just to have something to stream until I had Turtles, and that's what kind of started the streaming relationship that I have with Zach.
    48:36
    So I was just like, whatever. It was the first time I had had a game that wasn't mine with no preconceived notion of like, I need to like this or not. Just because I knew I was essentially just holding on to it. And yeah, my first few games on the game, hated it. Hated it. Absolutely didn't enjoy it at all. If I would have been on location, I probably would have moved on to the next game. But because I knew I was going to be playing it for a while, I started to dive in further. And that's when I really started to enjoy the game. Like that game, the longer I had it, the more and more I really fell in love with that game. Well, let's talk about gameplay in just a second. The overall theme, which I know last time I was talking about, I think anyone who does like theme, it's kind of like flip a coin for some people because either people love Star Wars, they love Star Trek or they love Lord of the Rings or they like cars or whatever. But I think, you know, kind of in the, you know, the zeitgeist again of just pop culture at the time and still to this day, because season five kind of brought back people's love of this franchise. guys i guess for me personally whatever subjective i would give it a solid seven you know if you rank it against star wars it's like well it's not star wars but you rank it against like walking dead these days it's a little higher so just overall the theme where uh in the pinball history horror slash dark moody themes are popular you know dracula twilight zone adam's family you know it's it's a it's a mood to a pinball machine that's kind of popular so i'll give it a seven How about you? No, I think that's a that's actually a really good number. I think currently right now. Yes. Stranger Things is still very hip and cool. You know, like I we watched it. We love the show. So it was something I very I mean, I recognized it. And I would say when I had the game, the majority of my friends and family all oh, Stranger Things, they knew exactly what it was and were curious to see what the game was. But yeah, the theme of the of the game, they definitely went more kind of spooky and eerie than like lighthearted, fun goonies type, you know, like let's let's really embrace the the childhood, you know, joy of the show. So that was my initial thing. Like, this game's pretty dark. Like, this game is actually kind of darker or scary. I was worried, you know, at my time, my two year old daughter at the time, I was like, I don't want her to be scared of this game and the artwork. um and so but yes theme wise i agree i think seven is a good is a good number for that i'll give you that but i think most people care about and including you because gameplay versus theme uh i'll let you start on this gameplay what do you what are your thoughts on the overall gameplay can you give it a number what do you love what do you not love gameplay i that game really grew on me not only just as the more i experienced it but um it's just the the code i mean i got it where There was actual code updates throughout the two or three months I had. So the game just kept evolving more. Overall gameplay, I would say I actually enjoy the way it shoots. Initially, the reason I was frustrated early on is because you got this big thing in the middle that's yelling at you to hit it in the face. And the reality is that's an incredibly dangerous shot. So if that's all you're focused on is to just keep bashing that guy, you're going to hate the game because you're going to drain so much. So when you start kind of ignoring him and saving him for certain moments where it's safe to hit the Demogorgon and you start focusing on the modes, then you actually realize like, oh, these modes are a lot of fun. There are some switch hit modes and different modes where all the shots are lit, like Fine Barb, all the shots are lit and you're trying to guess which shot it is. And I just love that, that the modes actually have character to them. And, you know, it's like, oh, no, I'm doing that mode and that's not the mode I wanted to do. So let's get this multi ball going so I can try to get through it. And I would say the overall layout, I love the left orbit that feeds into the right ramp. I enjoyed that a lot. The right orbit that goes back in the pops, not a very satisfying shot, but it's a I always looked at that as like a safe shot. Like, OK, let me take a breath. Let me just kick the ball back there and just take a breath for a second. Or if you need that to qualify a mode or something, it's like, well, that's safe. Let me go for that. The burn it back loop is fast. Like that's a cool shot. That's kind of unique the way that that goes around. I will say the saucer on the left is kind of meh. Yeah. And that's giving it a lot of credit. Meh. Yeah, it's not exciting. There are times when you need to hit it, you know, if you want to get your multiplier going or stuff. It's like, okay, good. But never, it doesn't feel good. The right ramp was my, it felt good when I hit it, but that was the ramp that really, there were so many modes or situations where it's like, crap, like that's the ramp I have to hit. And at least on the one I had, I couldn't backhand it. So it had to be across the play field. It was a more dangerous shot. but overall i wasn't i didn't think it felt clunky i thought it was a a very enjoyable layout and the deeper you get into the game um and we'll talk more about code but like yeah i don't know i just i really enjoyed it that game i really had a lot of highs and lows with that game and adrenaline pumping at moments which was awesome so um if i had to give it a score i'd probably give it uh i don't know an eight i mean it's it was really really enjoyable from what you're saying i'm here in eight i i would echo everything you said and my only not to beat a you know horse to death my only complaint i guess on the premium was the the tk lock and it's one of those you know that like i didn't believe it because a lot of times you hear like uh oh that that ramp's always garbage or whatever it may be in this game this one's usually kind of true like yes it does work if the shot's perfect it does but not every shot is perfect and like when it's to lock balls and it's how you get your main multi-ball uh you need that to work so even though i think most people's you know premium want including myself it's the projector more than anything um and we'll get to visuals in a second but for me that telekinesis lock like when it works it was so awesome but i i had to disable it and even when i sold it i was like hey it works man if you kind of want it to but yeah you know if you want to play the game and not just like say show someone hey let me hit this 10 times it'll work three out of 10 times like you just got to disable it so i think that's kind of uh i didn't like that i also didn't like the plunge into drop targets similar to star trek or sorry star wars i don't like plunges that just bump into something It just doesn't feel, you know, it's not a kinetic satisfaction.
    55:11
    So while what I loved disabling the TK lock, both ramps, I thought were super smooth. What you mentioned about the orbits. Great. Like all the shots in general, if you want to hit them, you have a really good percentage chance of hitting them. And that to talk about the lock. So I had the pro and the lock on the pro was a safe shot for me. You could cradle up on the left flipper and backhand it. And it was almost guaranteed. and that's something that I've realized talking more to other premium or le owners that's not a safe shot so like no to get into multi-ball or to to get that ball back there to lock like to me it was like oh thank goodness oh that's all I have to hit just get to the left flipper backhand boom I'm safe well they are like not at all like if you want to get that tk lock you almost have to hit it from the right flipper it's got to be clean it's got to have enough power to get up there And just to say the pro versus the premium, all I had, I had a pro stock Stranger Things and I really enjoyed it. And it wasn't until I gave it back did I have a chance to play Zach's LE and his had the UV light kit, the projector, and it was just like it blew my mind. Like that, that the, the atmosphere that that creates, like I had a great time on a stock bare bones version. And that, that's what I told myself. I was like, if I ever get a, if I ever get a stranger things again, I've got to go premium or Ellie, like I've got to get the rest of that experience at least for me. But it is a shame that yes, the left ramp is kind of a negative with the premium and Ellie. Very similar to the walking dead, that left ramp. They always got to, it's got to fuck with it. All right. So rules. What do you think? I actually, the rules. Oh, wait, sorry. I should say my number. I'll give gameplay a seven. So I agree with you. It's almost like the premium shoots worse than the pro for what it's worth if you have that TK lock. So I'm just going to say seven. Otherwise, I would say eight. All right. Go ahead. Rules. Yeah. Rules. I actually, the rules grew on me a lot. And part of it's because it is linear, but yet you do have options. So some of these games where you can do all the things all the time I struggle with that Even with video games like I prefer platformers I prefer you know like super Mario or something where it gives you like give me direction compared to like a grand theft auto where you just explore the, yeah. Explore the whole world, do whatever you want. And that's what I liked about stranger things was I understood you have 12 modes. Everyone's very unique. You, you can control which mode you're going to pick. So what do you want to do? Oh, I don't want that mode. Kick it back in the pops. try to get another mode and then what i really liked about it was the progression so i really liked that knowing all right i gotta get through three modes and then i have an extra ball and then if i get through my fourth mode then i'm in what is it total isolation yep and then six modes is an extra ball and then eight modes like i always felt like things were just right around the corner like i can just keep chugging along and i can get to that next step and um i don't know it was a code that drew me in and because the game is so eerie and the atmosphere, I don't know, it just, that was a game that I could really get immersed in. So I really, I would put it, you know, it's probably, I don't know, I don't care about scoring. That's the thing. I don't care about score at all. So if I just look at it as an experience, I'd probably put it pretty high. I'd probably put it at an eight, maybe even a nine. I really enjoyed the code in that game. I'm going to put you had an 8.5 oh i didn't know we could do decimals let's why not yeah let's go okay 8.5 rules on me again you said it as well as i could if not better i think the straightforwardness is a very big boon to the game um it my favorite is one of those games where i hit a mode and you said they don't do anything not they don't do anything light but when i hit the bullshit mode for the first time i was laughing out loud to myself like a like a freak in in in the entryway of my house when i had it just set up and i was like oh my god and i tried to like tell dana like you got to come see this you know that that was humorous and there's not many games especially pinball games that really put a smile on my face and this is one of those games that does and i'll talk about visuals which does in a second as well but i think the rules are exactly as in depth as most pinball games should be to where there's a lot but there's not too much to where like you need to get a rule book out you need to memorize everything it's like it's pretty straightforward you get multi or you get extra balls like you said uh at a good kind of rate yeah um and it has enough strange most pun enough strange modes like oh that's really sweet i mean the uv mode comes in and out and i think let's just overall even though you said you had stock let's just assume that this is a full package game we're kind of talking about with the uv kit and just to for my own segue well i'm going to say rules is nine i i think they're fantastic and when you have everything including all the visuals so i'm just going to go right into visuals of the projector is huge yeah i think yes they should have done a more gray material for the um the actual screen but as like an audio visual nerd which probably a lot of us are who care about home theater and all that um you know the the best contrast and colors to get in a projector screen is white but you want that to be in a light controlled room you can't really control lights in a pinball machine that well so I get why they had to do it it's the most pop but if you can control the lights in the room and get that agreement to this my only you know meriting out con to the game but the UV kit I just it has to be there you gotta have it for the full experience if you really want it when it turns on it's one of those smile things like this is a game the premium itself or that should be an le price just because there there's no other game that does something like this you get the uv like it you got the projector the demogorgon shakes it's such a mood it's such a you want to show everyone yeah anyone who doesn't like pinball loves pinball like look at this and they'll it'll blow their mind uh so i don't think if there is a better category that this could easily be a 10 for me uh visuals for me or 10 what do you think i i think you're you're 100 right um when And even just the Pro, I enjoyed the visuals. I love that they have the movie clips. I think the animations, everything they have in the LCD screen, I have no complaints. I just, the visuals that they have going on, even the artwork, I don't mind. I mean, it is Photoshop, but I like the color choices. It is a scarier looking game, at least I know some of the cabinet art. But I still, I think it's great. But you're right. The visuals where they go way overboard is that projector. once I saw that. You know, we all want pinball machines that aren't static, that change, that as the game evolves or, you know, oh, there's a diverter. So now when I hit this, it does something different. Or, you know, I'm in another play field to experience something different. Well, the projector, nothing's physically changing, but visually they make the modes visually feel different, look different. The fact that the spinner, the graphics on that and the graphics on the drop targets are changing. Yes. Not to mention video clips on the on the I mean, it's it's it's amazing. It's amazing what they did with the projector. I would love for them to bring that into other games. And then the UV light kit, the fact that that was printed on every play field and no one knew about it until later. I mean, what a great Easter egg to have hidden in there. And yeah, it changes once again. The lights go dim and you now the play field looks completely different. You're right. If a game deserves a 10, I would I put this right there. Yeah. Yeah. And you made a good point of like not only the projector on the big screen, but the fact that they did on the little drop targets and the little in the ramps. Yeah. Like, I don't know whoever did that. I should just look it up inside and tell me. But like who specifically's job like, all right, we got all the art, we got all the assets in the LCD screen. All right. Now what you need to do is take this projector. Yeah. Projection mapping. Yeah. Projection map onto ramps, these curved surfaces. And that isn't like celebrated as this like huge win where people like, oh, but the Demogorgon. So like, fuck off. Like, come on. What other game does that? Honestly. Or they're like, oh, you can't see it. It's too bright. It's like the dim the lights. Like, it's such a great game. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm glad you agree with the 10. I think if any game deserve it deserves it. It's this audio. What do you think now? Audio? This is the weakest part, in my opinion. I mean, they got music and I will tell you, when I had it, there was a mod. It was like a Cleveland mod or something like that where it would change out a lot of the music that they made up for music of the time, which was pretty cool. I really enjoyed that, but that's not official. So it's just – but unfortunately, Hopper, I love the character Hopper, but his call-outs are not good. They are so low energy. They are, in fact, bad. They are so low energy, and it just – that was just one of – I mean, that's really kind of one of the only negatives I have on the game is just the audio. package in my mind could be a lot better or the call outs just yeah it's like outlaying ball save lit it's like great thanks man you know sorry to bother you you know he's reading a grocery list yeah so it's it's an unfortunate thing that just now the quality of pinball these days you gotta have everything you gotta have everything to really blow you away and that the audio package is the one area. Luckily, the Cleland mod really helps. It adds a lot more energy there with some of the musical changes that they added into it. But the callouts drag it down. So, I mean, if I have to focus just on that category, I'd probably give it like a 6 or 6 maybe. There are immersive moments, though. Don't get me wrong. Total isolation.
    64:59
    Total isolation or something. That is very quiet and will draw you in and I play with headphones so they do a lot right so maybe that's hard maybe I'll give it a seven I'll give it a seven yeah you know I was gonna do the same I'm also giving it a seven and the only reason I'm doing it to play like I guess maybe devil's advocate's not the right term but I'm I only had the Cleland mod on mine okay so but again that only affects the music the call I don't think they did they tweaked the call outs because the same call outs were just like oh welcome to this game look at what you just did um aside from the bullshit mode which again the audio was the thing that gave me a smile and his kind of drab like bullshit was actually kind of charming for that mode um but uh the audio again i mean that's like rating like classic 80s songs like some of them are great but uh i'm saying a seven for that reason and because the demogorgon just the kind of creature sounds and when you go into the uv mode it's like oh yeah yeah that really you know drew me in um and it kind of uh just the sound effects of when you were hitting like Is it the drop targets? They're kind of like clinky. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm talking about? It is entirely the call outs. Like everything else, I am totally fine with everything else they had in that game. It is just the call outs that really drag it down. Yep. Well, if we take our numbers and add them up, I'm at an 80. You're at a 79. We're pretty much in line like a B minus. Now, again, I'm like you. The numbers don't really matter. So what I care about most is just kind of my overall opinion on the game. I want you to start. Like if you had to say someone who's new to pinball said, what do you think of this game? Stranger Things. Is this a average above average F.A. What is your. Oh, man, I would say it's above average. Like it's truly I that is a game that I would I would consider genuinely consider getting back in the house. But the problem is it has to be a premium. Yes. And nobody has them. And they're crazy expensive. And it's just that's but it is such a unique experience. That is something that if we have a arcade bar downtown Tappers, they have like 25 games. And if I knew I could only have a friend of mine play like two games while we were there, I would take them to Stranger Things because they have a premium. And it's it's such a unique experience, unlike any other game. And it's so easy to like, yeah, hit the drop targets. You're getting that ramp's going to come down and see if you can bash the guy in the mouth. Like, yeah, it's so that's what really drew my friends and family in is it was such an obvious target.
    67:26
    And that's all they wanted to do was see if they could hit him in the mouth and they were locked in. So I absolutely think it's an above average game. It bums me out that Stern doesn't make them anymore. I wish they would just to bring the price down. Oh, yeah. But it is it has one of the best overall atmospheric experiences that you can really get in pinball, in my opinion. So the fact you're telling me it's an 80 in my mind should be higher. Absolutely should be higher than that. I agree. I would put it in the like everything is at least above average. And then you add in the light and the overall just like experience. And it's way above average. And I agree. They need to remake this just to bring the price down because I would also, no surprise, bring it back in my collection. But this was one where just like we've said a million times, anyone who's not into pinball will be like, whoa, I did not know you could even do this. and when you're bringing up the demogorgon mouth thing that's one thing they did different here that they didn't have an attack from mars or medieval madness we're like yeah you're bashing the center target but even if you want to go further if you can snipe even in the center of this you get an even i'll say bonus but you get to complete this mode even faster which the castle and the ufo you just you know you hit it and that's it and if you have the game set up right and those again who out there are out there saying oh you can never set it out right set it up right you can if you just get it level like you can hit that mouth every time well you know if you're really try um unlike the tk lock which you know whatever yeah that's maybe that would be even better if they remade it if they vaulted it and somehow improved the design of that to make it 100 i mean i would i would be super tempted not to buy that new in box like i i really it is one of the games i miss i genuinely miss um that was that i had when i borrowed it which is great i mean it was literally my first day on it i was like get it out of here and yet it became as it as the more i played it and then now that I've seen the projector and the UV kit like yeah I would love to own that game again the thing I'll leave us on on the stranger things is when I finally got rid of it wasn't because I didn't like it or anything it was just you know sometimes I go through these phases of I gotta take a break from pinball because it's you know heavily monetary investment sometimes you know whatever and I so this was and I didn't put on pin side I just text someone like hey whatever okay I'll take it you know immediately but the person that coming coming got it they came and test it out great i knew him anyways and we got it out to their their van lifted it up you know and or no he did it by himself and he dropped it so it yeah and like of any game to like just drop and like land and i was like oh i mean he already paid it and he's cool he's like oh no problem but i was like oh my god you don't want to drop that game man yeah but uh he dropped it but that's how it left my house maybe that's not the way next time it shouldn't leave that way Now the TK lock works every time.
    70:16
    That's all it takes. Just drop it. Yeah, just one major adjustment and boom, it works. Yeah, sledgehammer it or drop it off of the van. Well, thanks for reviewing this with me. I just wanted to say thanks for being such a helping member of the Pinball Network. To me personally, even before I joined, I would shoot you texts of like, hey, when you're doing this podcast thing, what do you – I mean you're always helpful. You're always responding. You didn't have to. You don't owe me anything. You know, and I just want to say thanks. Like everything I've seen, how you communicate with people in the hobby, whether it be in Discord or whether it be on Twitch, streaming, anything you do. Like you're just you're priceless in this community, man. You got to keep doing what you're doing. I hear plenty of compliments from other people and they're like, oh, I love Pinball Party, but I also love Triple Drain. You know, it's always followed up with that or just another pinball podcast. It's almost like I think they want to start with that and then say pinball party. But no, that's not man. That's very kind. Thank you. Yeah. I don't have any reason to be doing what I'm doing. I don't have any experience in this. I think it's funny that people care about my opinion. They probably don't, but I'm sharing it anyways.
    71:24
    But I just, I love it. I love this community. There's so many great people in this community. And, you know, I started everything that I do, podcasting and streaming because of COVID. I just wanted to be with people. And streaming and podcasting has been an incredible outlet to do that. And I've met some amazing people and there are people that helped me early on that I. So why not? And and that's the thing about the pinball community. If you're listening, just get involved. You don't necessarily have to make content, but reach out, make some friends. Everybody that does this wants to do it with other people. So I'm always happy to answer an email or text or a message on Facebook. And I love talking pinball and helping people out however I can. So more than happy to do it. It shows, man, your enthusiasm, just even verbally, like you tell you really love it. So it's great that you're doing this.
    72:13
    You guys got a triple drain coming out? What, next week, this week? I don't know, actually. We try to react. We try to react to news, and there hasn't been any. So I'm glad we didn't wait for the Bond 60th release, which we hoped was last week. So we actually had one last week. I don't know. We might record one before Thanksgiving.
    72:34
    Those two, they play so much competitive pinball, trying to fit it into their schedule on how much travel and what they do. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully, you know, we try to stick to like a two, three week schedule somewhere around there. And I'm trying to line up an interview to do another just another pinball podcast, actually with George, with George Gomez. And I know I've done one with him before, but I told myself I'm not going to interview him until I've played Bond and I haven't had a chance to play it yet. So once I have a chance to play it and experience the shots, hopefully I can line one up with him and interview him again, which should be a good time. So, yeah, hopefully more stuff coming soon. So until we hear just another pinball podcast and triple drain, where else can people find you? Well, I stream on the pinball network every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight Eastern time. And then every other Thursday on the flipping out stream, same thing, 10 to midnight. So there's plenty of that. And then like tonight, it's a Wednesday tonight. I'll be streaming, but we'll be recording one of the TV and after our streams. And those are always on YouTube after the fact. So a lot of times if you can't catch it live, feel free to catch that after afterwards and plenty of fun pinball discussion there. So should be a good time. And I do catch it afterwards. And honestly, this is what I do. I get the YouTube link. I put it into MP3 converter and then I and then I import it into my podcast. I listen to it as a podcast. So we've had people say that. Is there a way that you could make it a podcast? And maybe we just need to say, you know, step in for you. Yeah, or next time I do this, I'll just do the stream and give it to Zach or whatever. Here, put it up there. There we go. Yeah, don't even have to edit it. It's already good to go. I do very little editing, even on our Triple Drain podcast. It's besides just kind of making sure levels sound good. It's, I don't know, try to be, in my view, it's just be real and authentic and just let it all out, hang out. And I also don't have nearly the editing skills that you do. So I just let it roll. It's more from neuroticism than anything. but yeah i know i had to do this so much but hey man thanks for joining me thanks for reviewing stranger things i guess let's get back to work if we have to but yeah until next time thanks again man i appreciate it all right talk to you later see ya so awesome to have joel on the show thanks again for joining hopefully we'll talk again on air in the future that's all she wrote thanks for all the listener emails thanks for listening to me talk about secondary market stuff I look forward to all the opinions on that shit but yeah please feel free to shoot me an email at pinballpartypodcast at gmail.com or tell me your opinion verbally at our voicemail 262-528-6625 and be sure to join us next time on the Pinball Party. I'm Jason. We'll see you later. It's not all about falling over Feeling colder Time well spent there with him It's now all about getting older And seeing over Finding life there again It's not all about falling I do it during work, as you'd expect. Yeah. The only appropriate time to edit a podcast. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Here we go.