Hey, what's going on pinball land? Welcome. It's a special edition of the Flipping Out Pinball Podcast. And with us today, Greg, we've got some very special guests. Some very special guests. Some very special guests. And they're from Barrels of Fun. We've And they're from Barrels of Fun. We've got David David's here. David Vaness, Carl D'Angelo. Uh we're going to share something a little bit special with you today. We're going to be speaking about the Winchester Mystery House pinball machine. Brand new pinball machine from Barrels of Fun. David Vaness is the CEO of Barrels of Fun. Carl D'Angelo, you know him from pinball fame, big-time pinball ambassador, extremely worldrenowned competitive pinball player and also the lead designer on the Winchester Mystery House pinball machine. Gentlemen, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, honestly, you know, Thank you. Yeah, honestly, you know, this is the celebrity right here. This is this is the rockstar. So, I got a feeling it was a team effort. I got a feeling it was a team effort. Oh, it it's definitely a team effort Oh, it it's definitely a team effort always. Yeah. always. Yeah. But, uh it's one of those things of when But, uh it's one of those things of when you see talent out there, you got to go and get it. One of the bigger questions that'll be One of the bigger questions that'll be on everybody's mind right now is Winchester Mystery House. explain to us how that popped into your head, how you thought that that would be the theme that would be the next big hit for Barrels of Fun. So, what you what everyone kind of needs to understand is I guess the history of our relationship with the Winchester Mystery House. Um before Barrels of Fun became a public company to everyone, uh we were gathering up talking to different licenses about what we could do uh on a timeline for Barrels of Fun. And I have had a lot of meetings with a lot of different studios and licenses and so forth like that. And a meeting I took was with one company that actually handled the Winchester Mystery House. and we're talking about different IPs and they were like, I wasn't even looking at Winchester as an IP and they said, well, what about Winchester? And I'm like, I'm I'm a I'm a horror kid. I like supernatural stuff. I like spooky stuff and as a pinball collector and someone that's into that genre, a haunted house pinball machine has always been on my list to do someday. and it instantly piqued my interest because like if you know the lore of Winchester Mystery House, it is very deep. Um, just a little brief history of the Winchester Mystery House. Sarah Winchester um is the widow of the um fortune of the Winchester uh gun company and she lost her daughter and her husband very quick secession in the 1800s and she at that time spiritualism was really really big and she went to see a spiritualist and that person basically told her to move out west because every person that was killed by a Winchester firearm was basically coming after her. She the Winchester family was cursed. So she took all her fortune, moved out west, and as she kept having more communications with the spiritualist, it was like, you need to build a house. You need to keep building a house to confuse the the the angry spirits that are coming for you. Um, and that was where the law started. There basically, you know, there's stories of she built a, you know, she would stay in a different room every night. So the spirits would not find her to she would have seances every night from 12 to 2 a.m. Um so and you know and then when you start looking at pictures of this magnificent Victorian house, you know, it started out as a little farmhouse in the middle of San Jose and like stair like stairwells going up into ceilings, doors that fall to nowhere. It's just it is really insane. It's just whatever they could do, she just kept building. And even to this day when we're touring it, they will still find well, they don't find new rooms, but they find new maps and drawings of different things that they were doing, or if they take off something from the wall, it will be different wallpaper. It's it is a it's an experience to go there and just see what she did in her life. So hearing all that, knowing all these stories, it instantly sparked an interest in me as a creative storyteller. And so it was always in the back of my mind of that would be really cool to do as a game. Um, and then so as Barrows of Fun started become more of what we wanted to do down the road, we always thought about multiple different titles we could do as a company. We kind of have three categories. We have tier A, category A, which would be a game that we are pretty confident is going to blow everyone away. Tier B is an IP that we know it would do okay. It could be an A. Um, but it's a little bit more risky, but we think it's a very compelling story to do in a pinball format. And then we have category C. That game should not exist. that game. We believe we can tell a very unique story and a pinball experience in that world and that's where kind of Winchester fell into. It's an IP that we felt would make a very interesting story, a very compelling gameplay, but where did that fit into our category? Cuz if you know Winchester, you know really well. If you don't know Winchester, you have no idea what it is. So, it's always been in my back pocket cuz I kept hitting me up like, "David, you need to do Winchester." It's like, "Look, you know, I'm starting a company. I need to make sure I got IPs that I know will keep feeding the company. I mean, we're 30 people now. I got to make sure I keep the factory running." And they kept badgering me and badgering me. Well, not really bad, but kept knocking on my door. So that led to us going to a to the the house doing a tour seeing all this wonderful stuff and I got wind of Carl was doing a whitewood game just a pinball machine and I had multiple people. One was Shane from Ace Goi. I'll call him out cuz I need to give him some credit. Um and then I also saw him on the fast Um and then I also saw him on the fast Slack. Shout out to Fast Pinball is he was working on a whitewood. So I was like two rumblings. He's actively making something. And I've always been a big fan of Carl and I. Pinball. I mean, when you want to know how to play a game, if you want a tutorial, you go to Carl's Strengths. So, in my head, I'm like, if he's that passionate about it, I want to know what he's doing. Cuz Barrels of Fun exists because we have amazing people working for us. They are extremely talented, and I want to give them the power to do the best they can do. So, with the team that I already have, what if I can talk to Kyle, find out what he's doing, and give him the resources of the company to build a game that he wants with all his experience of playing and rules and knowledge. What could he do if I gave him the keys to the barrels of fun? So, and I really apologize. I make such long stories out of short ones. We'll slip that. And when we met with him, so we went to Winchester, we came down to um Los Angeles and he brought a video. He showed us his whitewood and everything he was doing and the IP he was doing it towards and it was really Let me ask you, how does that Let me ask you, how does that conversation go? Does Does Carl know at this point that you might be kind of coming after him for a potential opportunity or you guys are just hooking up because you just want to see what he's working on? No, it was just a explore and see if I wanted any involvement in the company and see, you know, what role I would want to take really. So, there was nothing when I first met you. There was nothing really, you know, you're going to be working on this or, you know, you're going to do rules or design or there was no idea. It was just we were going to just kind of see how I fit in and how things worked see how I fit in and how things worked out basically. See what role fit me best. Did you have aspirations to do that? Um, Did you have aspirations to do that? Um, you know, prior to David, I I because I I mean, look, you've been involved in the industry and in the hobby, in the competitive scene, in the streaming scene for so many years, and you have almost your own personal brand going at that point. Is working with the major pinball manufacturer something that that you were pursuing or was on your radar? And and if was there any hesitancy and kind of crossing over into that into that realm? Uh, it it was it was on the long-term Uh, it it was it was on the long-term radar. So, I was working on the whitewood thinking that it could be a potential retirement plan, you know, when I I still have a day job, so this isn't even a full-time job for me. This is my my my my side gig. Um, so the idea was build the whitewood, get a game ready, and then, you know, when I'm ready to retire, I could show that game off to manufacturers and see what would happen with that. It just all came up a little faster than It just all came up a little faster than what you thought it was. A lot faster. Yeah, a lot faster. Well, A lot faster. Yeah, a lot faster. Well, when I get passionate about something, I kind of don't let go. Like, I'm going to I'm going to pursue it the best I can. So, it was like, so he came over to our little Airbnb we had and showed us his Whitewood and told me the IP and I was like, "Okay." So, I cuz again, I would we I would like to get the IP for him, but it's one of those IPs that is uh potentially very difficult to get a hold of. Um, I was impressed with what he had done and like you said, it was like, well, if you were thinking about doing this, cuz you obviously have a day job, like where would you want to fit in? And that's where we were just talking about stuff. And then it came down to of well, what licenses do you like? This is the license pool that we have. And again, this is all prior to everything before we even become public. At this time, we were public, but the licenses we had secured were all prior to us coming out in uh Friday the 13th to 2023. And it was Dune and Winchester and a couple others I can't talk about. Um, and as soon as I said Winchester, he was like, "Oh, Winchester Mystery House." And I was like, "You like haunted house stuff?" And he's like, "Yeah." Cuz he's a big theme park guy. Um, I'm a big theme park guy and it actually turns out we were in the same forums in the late 90s, early 2000s in like Westpark.net and um theme park review, you know, I didn't see him personally, but yeah, he was actively in that community of theme park enthusiasts and and haunts and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, it was kind of interesting on that aspect. So I wanted to go. So So Carl, for you with with this kind So So Carl, for you with with this kind of being thrown on you, was there any hesitation or anything moving forward? Were there any, you know, pitfalls? Was it as expected? Was it rougher, easier than what you thought it was going to be? Nothing's ever as easy as Nothing's easy Nothing's ever as easy as Nothing's easy in pinball. Let's just get that. You know, that's a common phrase everyone says. Uh it was me learning a whole new set of skills really. I had never dealt with solid work. So at that very very first meeting I remember Paul uh actually mentioned well you should uh actually mentioned well you should learn Solid Works and figure that out. And so right after that I begun starting an online course and teaching myself how to use Solid Works had an educational version that uh just to start learning the trade basically. Was there anything from your your Was there anything from your your original Whitewood? Was there anything that you were kind of working on? Any ideas that you'd already had you know kind of conceived of that that made its way over into Winchester? This is a completely different game than what my other whitewood was. Nice. Nice. So, no ideas really transferred over. So, no ideas really transferred over. With all the games that you've played With all the games that you've played over time, I would imagine that you've realized that there's some pinch points within pinball design, maybe ways that you thought could be approached a little bit differently um or maybe improved upon or maybe just ingenuity, you know, engineering something completely different. Is is there do you have a a design core or design philosophy that is kind of within you that you instilled in this game or is that something that you feel as a designer you'll start finding your way as you go from from game to game assuming that you're looking to do another game? Yeah. Um and I am I think we we'll be Yeah. Um and I am I think we we'll be maybe doing stuff. Um, it's I'd say overall what I a design philosophy I have is is like if you have an upper flipper shot, I always want multiple ways to feed that flipper. So that that kind of, you know, thinking of the geometry of a game, I I don't want anyone to be locked out on a certain area of the game. This game has four flippers in it. So I want to make sure that the upper two flippers, you had different ways to feed the ball to it. um just to give the variety and give the options so you're not stuck on just a single shot and make it accessible to all players. Hopefully, that's always the goal. At least my goal was to make the game accessible so that anyone could step up and and understand it and be able to flip it and find all the shots. David, when you were considering Winchester, was what was going through your mind? Were you looking to make something that was more horror based and more sinister? Were you looking for something that was a little more familyfriendly? It seems like from what we're seeing right now, there's a delicate balance there that offers a little bit of both. Like, how do you how do you approach that? And what was the what was your creative vision going into it? And how do you think the end project, you know, matched up with what you originally had in your head going into it? Well, the the first thing is making sure Well, the the first thing is making sure what K's vision is is what we we go with. And then it's my job to make sure that again like barrels, we want to do IPS that can obviously very much appeal to the pinball community, but also potentially reach outside of that. So like with the Winchester uh brand, it's like so visually it's very I wouldn't say familyfriendly, but it's eerie. It's it's something that a kid I don't think's going to be scared of and they can walk up to it. but we're definitely going to take them up to PG-13 like, "Oh, this is going to get intense and they may get scared." So, it's that we're trying to create a world where it feels safe, it's approachable, but you're still going to get the, you know, the jump at you, you know, like it's a fine balance of how do we get it it's a fine balance of how do we get it appealing to a mass audience and then suck them into that story and then they deep dive into the rules that he basically has set for it, which is honestly a very smart move. I which is honestly a very smart move. I mean, you guys, you've probably heard and seen people, you know, there's some people that won't even put, you know, particular games in their house because they're a little too eerie or spooky for people and stuff, you know, a little too mature for them. So, you know, I think that that, you know, like you said, walking that that fine line, that delicate balance so that you can find, you know, that it can go into everyone's home, but still kind of retain that that nice creepy spooky fun, you know, initial haunt aspect that you guys wanted. Uh, I think I think it's awesome, man. I think you that that's a good direction. Greg, you want to hear something creepy? Greg, you want to hear something creepy? Yeah, always. Yeah, always. So, uh, first of all, when we were So, uh, first of all, when we were working on it, the the Winchester Mystery House folks, like, do you want to put a piece of the house in every game? And like I'm I And like I'm I appreciate it, David. We're out of here. It was good. Thanks for joining us. I'm out. That's like I already see the I'm out. That's like I already see the aura and the haunt behind there. Might be a figure behind them already. I know something I'm getting attached to. Something's going on. But like like like instantly I think But like like like instantly I think we're both thinking like man we need to get like they'll give us the wallpaper. Yeah. Like to put into the game Like to put into the game and we're like this is this would be as and we're like this is this would be as a collector and as someone that likes us stuff like dude this is like marketing like this is awesome. And then they started telling us the And then they started telling us the stories of people that stole stuff from the house um from the filmmakers that made the Winchester movie. Like they gave pieces of the house to the producers and the directors and the actors. All that stuff came back within six months and none of these people really do and none of these people really do believe in horror. Wow. Wow. So it's like So it's like the collector of me is like we got to do the collector of me is like we got to do this. The manufacturer side of me is like I don't want any of these game like like I I can't afford to have every game sent back to me. So um so yeah, it's like I don't necessarily believe in the supernatural. I mean, yeah, it's just there's a creepy story for you, Greg. So, if you want a piece of the house, let me know. I will send it over to you. It's one of those uh better safe than It's one of those uh better safe than sorry aspects. So, but it's that fine line, right? And So, but it's that fine line, right? And that's what we want to do with this game. We want people to feel a little bit unner uneasy. The music is very soft. It it fits the era and you're playing it and you've got this nice tour guide. and I'll let you tell the story, but the whole point is like let them go and explore the Winchester Mystery House as it stands today and how it stood after she died and they sold the house on to another family was to allow people to hear the story and explore this unique house and all like the architecture in this house is amazing but it's haunt I mean this house is the inspiration for so many other haunted houses around the world even attractions like Haunted Mansion all take insp inspiration from this one house. This house, when you talk about haunted This house, when you talk about haunted houses, this is probably the top five in the world. So, that leads me into my next question. As the player, Carl, when I go up and I hit the start button, what is my what is my role in the game? Right? You're a tourist and you have a Right? You're a tourist and you have a tour guide right away and he tells you, he asks you, "What room do you want to explore?" So you are choosing the your path through the house and choosing which rooms to visit and each room has a spirit or something in it. So the story arch, what is the overall So the story arch, what is the overall story arch? Not the rules. Yeah, the overall story is is you've Yeah, the overall story is is you've been you walk in the house, you're locked in the house and there is this there's a spirit Henry in the house that's controlling all the spirits. So you want to free the spirits and then evade Henry, get away from him and try to escape the house. So it's it's like your modern day you're So it's it's like your modern day you're there. It's it's not that you were living in the time of Sarah Winchester. It it's a modernday uh uh pinball mission. Like you're you're there in the modern times. Correct. Right. Yeah. However, we do have aspects Right. Yeah. However, we do have aspects that we've pulled in from the past like uh in 1906 the San Francisco earthquake hit and destroyed a lot of that house, including a tower that they had on site that was seven stories tall. The tower fell partially and then they uh dismantled it after the uh the earthquake. But we put it in the game. You can see in the back glass actually on the uh on the right side of the house you can see this ghostly figure of a tower and then inside the game we have the tower in it. So we will have a uh a mode where there's an earthquake and the tower will fall. Yeah. So again it's almost like like how we had Brad Albbright approach the art. The whole point is you know people are attracted there to the story of the seances and and the spiritual side of it. So, like when you look down the playfield, you know, having the uh the the crystal bowl in front of you and the spirits coming out from that, it's like you're exploring the history, the stories like the wheelbarrow ghost in the basement, you know, that's a that was a real person that lived with Sarah. Like she had I think like 20 plus families. I don't know the exact number, but she paid for families like the workers there. they she paid for those families to be there and to basically, you know, obviously work for her, but like there's so many people and characters attached to this this legacy and it's like we wanted to honor that and their little stories inside of that. And obviously there's we make up a lot, right? We did make up a lot of the right? We did make up a lot of the stories, of course. Yes. Yes. Well, it seems like the main feature Well, it seems like the main feature obviously is the house, the Winchester house. And in the back of that pinball machine, you've got a massive sculpt and you have something that's extremely impressive that's embedded and integrated within that sculpt, which is kind of that that Pepper's ghost holographic looking display. Could you talk a little bit about what the idea was for the concept of that and and why you thought that was important to put there? Well, we wanted to have the ghosts on Well, we wanted to have the ghosts on the game physically somewhere. Um, so we worked through several different iterations and landed on on this once we got the right size screen and just just it just fit right in the back so the ball can still pass underneath the the images in the Pepper Ghost box, but we could still surround it with the with the Winchester and make it look like the Winchester's alive basically. It seems like lately pinball It seems like lately pinball enthusiasts, pinball buyers, they're looking for something new, something fresh. There's like a wish list that that people have to see modern day pinball integrate into the into the games and that peppers ghost effect where I've seen it done before. I've never seen it done like that in this machine. I mean, it's it's massive. It's substantial. Are there any other ideas that were implemented in this game where you might have considered some community feedback and in the community wish list and what they're looking for in a new pinball machine? I mean, it wasn't I wouldn't say I went over a wish list when I was designing it, but it's all stuff that I've always wanted in games and just, you know, the multiple paths, you know, just diverters on most shots. You know, the the ball path should always change and be fresh. Again, our philosophy is always how can Again, our philosophy is always how can we take this IP and make the best pinball weld. It's like going back to Labyrinth. No one was asking for Labyrinth and Pinball, but when you look at the story and the but when you look at the story and the overall of how it's approached, it makes the perfect pinball weld. So, when you talk about Winchester, I mean, even we just was doing a haunted house, I mean, this has labyrinths of corridors and rooms that you can explore, which perfectly translates into pinball, right? And then like with the Peppa Ghost, it And then like with the Peppa Ghost, it was like everyone goes, "Well, you got to have the LCD on the on the playfield. Like, that's your signature move." I was like, "It's not our signature move. It is like if the game needs a LCD on there to tell a story, to have it interact and make it a personal experience, that's why we use it. So like again, yes, we have an LCD on the playfield, but it's not there because it's our signature anything. It's there how can we have the player experience something new and different? So like again when we take an IP on it's like we don't I mean obviously there's little things that we've experienced in our past of game toys and features that what how can we use that in a new fresh way but story and gameplay is always first like how can we tell the story that we want to tell and make it a community experience? How can we get people excited about playing a game? Again, you may not know what Winchester is, but when you see the game and the features in it, you want to experience that story no matter what it is. And that is the foundation of what's important to us. Well, and honestly to to me, what you Well, and honestly to to me, what you guys are are known for the best is just the the integration of the theme. Everything you guys have done, like you said, with Labyrinth, Labyrinth, if you guys wouldn't have created the world that you did, I don't think would have nearly been the success that it was. And the same thing with Dune. I mean, there's very little that I think that could ever rival what you guys were able to do with that game and how you integrated the clips and integrated, you know, the certain scenes and aspects of that film all cohesively into a pinball machine with lighting, toys, mechs, the LCD. And so, you know, it very much seems like that that's what you guys did with this, but had even more free reign to do what you wanted. I I mean it's scary what the the license hold is allowing us to do. I mean this will literally be so just so for this game alone we have growing grown our team by at least four people. So we have multiple animators now. We have multiple engineers. We hired Luke uh Underwood who was the uh the guy that made the Pokemon pinball machine uh the homebrew piece. He'll be taking that game to actually Chicago this year because he's been working on that. Like we have grown this. You got to remember all everything you've seen right now, including this game, was what we consider phase one of Barrels of Fun. This was setting the foundation to allow us to tell very unique stories on in the pinball platform. And you talk about how how we want to tell stories. All these games have led up to other licenses seeing what we're doing. Like, I can't wait for you guys. And I'm not trying to oversell, but you have no idea how excited we are with now that the studios trust us and to see the level of detail that we're doing in our games, the roster that we have coming up. Like, I know we'll get criticized for like this is essentially an original IP, but you wait to see what else we've got down the road. Like again, this is all about how I can empower some of the most creative people I know in different areas of expertise to create a unique pinball experience with the Winchester game. You've limited this to 525 games. Uh I find that interesting. Is there anything in particular that was behind the decision to make it so so limited and in today's pinball climate very collectible? So, why do we choose 525? I can't remember. I can't remember. It's the street. It's the street. The house is literally 525 Winchester The house is literally 525 Winchester Boulevard. That's I mean, there were other numbers that we were thinking about going to and I had some very good marketing friends say, "Do not put that number on that game because it will freak people out and they won't like it." So, and honestly, that number has nothing to do with the brand itself. So 525 was a really and we couldn't make 13 because Sarah's favorite number was 13 and we wouldn't be able to sustain a 13 game run unless it was insanely expensive. So 525 is related to obviously the IP. So it actually means something to the fans of Winchester, but it's also a really good number for the pinball community that it's going to be rare. Let's not factor in 100 plus games going overseas, you know. So that means that the you know. So that means that the American market is getting even smaller. But the reason we're doing this as a small run is it also allows us so the expansion of our company we've moved into 13,000 square feet behind us is we want to be able to have a main lane where we're doing kind of our bigger IPs but again my creative itch and my but again my creative itch and my creative itch of all my uh employees is I want to give them outlets to do dream stuff as well that may not be realistic in a manufacturing world. So with the expansion and the vertical integration of all of what we're doing regarding parts and uh prototyping is uh Winchester is the perfect game to basically allow us to expand and experiment to see if this is a viable solution. So again, I hope people are super excited about, you know, a passion project that is damn fun to play. It's hard, don't get me wrong. So Carl is a really good player and I will tell you this is not, you know, this ain't going to be baby's first pinball. It's fine. It's fine. His skill level It's fine. It's fine. His skill level needs some work. Okay. Perhaps you don't let him stream it and Perhaps you don't let him stream it and blow up the game originally because that's uh I've I've seen that happen in the past. You know, kudos to you on that, Carl. When you got you're talking about working with the uh the licenser or the IP holder for Winchester. Was there a back and forth with design elements, uh playfield elements, animations? It seems like you said you've got almost free reign, which can be good and which can be bad, but I'm just curious like was there any push back or anything that you had to deal with on this one? We had very little notes really coming We had very little notes really coming back. Uh just two red lines. two red lines. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which was spelling mistakes, Which was spelling mistakes, right? A lot of it was spelling right? A lot of it was spelling mistakes. Just stuff like that that came through. A couple uh modifications like nothing nothing demonic. Nope. Nope. You know, stuff like that. But it was You know, stuff like that. But it was very very free range. And so this actually this is going to be a game where if actually the owners come up with new ideas, we will actually be able to do it. Like we've created over 13 rooms all in 3D. So we've created whole rooms, whole So we've created whole rooms, whole hallways. Like if you guys come up with an idea Like if you guys come up with an idea and it's a good idea, the license is going to allow us to do it. And I mean seriously whatever you guys come up with and we think it's good enough we can actually execute it without any fear of the the licenser won't do that which is I think kind of actually a first if you think about it. It just seems like a huge undertaking at least when you're dealing with something that with with a license holder that has assets, right? I mean, you can you can rely on those assets. You can rely on the story. And I would say especially when you're dealing with animations. I mean, that's that tends to be uh you know, very demanding. Just like your artwork, your storyline, everything that you have here, there's nothing other than the idea of that Winchester mystery house. There's nothing really that you had core elements to plug and play into the game. We do. We do. the logo. The logo and we Clyde was also the uh The logo and we Clyde was also the uh he's the famous wheelbarrow ghost that they always they have assets for and so we put Clyde in the game made sure he was a big part of it. I mean we designed I mean we have I mean we designed I mean we have handmade pretty much everything in this game which is you know people in this game which is you know people weigh up like you said like you get a license you get this you know treasure trove of all the stuff they're about to put into the game. Um, and obviously we have a ton of photo references. We have video and stuff like that, but again, none of that's going to be interactive on the playfield. So everything you see, I mean, this is what I call a real craftsmanship because everything is, you know, handdrawn. Everything is animated. Um, I I do realize I put a lot of this was a huge undertaking and everyone that came on at first, oh yeah, yeah, this won't be a problem. And then I was just like, uh, what did I sign up for? I said, "Hey, I was very honest, like this ain't going to be easy." And u well, as Ken Ken said, sometimes having, well, as Ken Ken said, sometimes having, you know, that free reign, it's a good thing, but there, you know, can be a downside. Was it was it difficult to rein in your your ideas and narrow them down to things that you could actually put into the game? Cuz I mean, your minds had to been all over the place and it had to having that free reign, there had to have been millions of ideas floating around. I don't think we really reigned anything I don't think we really reigned anything in. We What did we cut What did we cut from the story and stuff? I don't think from the story and stuff? I don't think anything was cut from the story. No. No. No. No. Mechwise, we did we cut anything. Mechwise, we did we cut anything. Mechwise, we just revised things over Mechwise, we just revised things over time, but nothing was actually cut from it. It got bigger, actually. It got bigger, actually. It probably did, if you want to say It probably did, if you want to say that. You know, Carl, would you like to take a minute Carl, would you like to take a minute and uh as long as you'd like actually, and just kind of talk a little bit more about the team involved here? It seems like the main focus, rightfully so, is is usually on, you know, how a game shoots, which would, you know, the designer with the layout and the flow, but I mean, we've got animations, we've got artwork, we've got audio, which was really refreshing to me to hear some of that audio package uh that we were kind of privy to uh with the reveal video. It just seems like everything in this game just feels very refreshing. And I was wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about the the team that was involved behind those creative assets. Well, we can start with Brad Albbright. He did the the art package for the the entire game, the playfield, the the cabinet, the back glass. Um, and I I say he was given an impossible task because I had my insert layout all done and we slapped it on him and and you you know, you've got this giant map in the middle of the the playfield, which which I really didn't know how it would translate to an art package. uh and he came up with this wonderful blueprint plan of the house, you know, going through all the different rooms and up to the uh up to the attic to the witches cap uh all the way to the basement. It's a fantastic uh package all together, I think. Um and then we had uh Josh uh kind of leading right all the animations in the 3D world with all the animations in the 3D world with Julian. Exactly. and Trent doing uh text Exactly. and Trent doing uh text treatments and and uh the the halos are out in the ghost, right? And they've all kicked it out of right? And they've all kicked it out of the park. They they you know built these 3D landscapes inside the rooms and they Josh basically took I gave him a virtual tour of the house and he basically took the house and then modeled it in 3D ballroom, ballroom, right? So he can moved it and he spent right? So he can moved it and he spent this an insane amount of time detailing the organ that's in the grand ballroom which is this detailed piece of work. It's just it's a phenomenal thing. It'll be featured more in the game later on. There's a couple spots in it right now. So, you're saying that the 3D element uh So, you're saying that the 3D element uh or scan of the rooms like you're going to be able to visually experience that within the LCD screen. So, this isn't like generic graphics. This is like kind of you're getting that real authentic tour of that home, right? So, yeah, you'll be walking right? So, yeah, you'll be walking through the halls. Uh it's an endless hallway when you're traveling, but uh when you start the modes and the rooms, you there's a camera that moves through the room to to set where we're actually like showing the final scene for the room. Seriously, guys, we kind of honestly Seriously, guys, we kind of honestly probably went way above and beyond we should have. Um, but it's too late now. We're down the road. So, that's what happens. It's a passion when that's what happens. It's a passion when it's a passion project. That's what happens. Things get out of control very easily. You know, the enthusiasts, they deserve You know, the enthusiasts, they deserve it, too. You know, it's uh it's just good to see an all-in effort in in something like this. What about the audio? The audio was uh Jeff Dodson. uh he's The audio was uh Jeff Dodson. uh he's been streaming on Dirty Pool Pinball and he again killed it with this. We we did take some risks and Ron he would be the better guy to ask about specifics because I remember he won't want to have a remember he won't want to have a conversation. He he won't want to talk at all. But he we were using like Yamaha But he we were using like Yamaha synthesizer chip to for the sound effects which is very reminiscent of the old Valley Williams games like Dracula and of that era to give the game a unique soundsscape compared to most modern pinball. And then he composed the music which is and has a very earcatching theme I think for the uh for the primary theme and then all the various modes have different energies and excitement based on what you're doing at the moment. Ken and I were talking about that yesterday about how good the sounds were, how that, you know, that was such a a unique and remarkable decision to do just because it did it lended itself very well to that eeriness of of the pinball machine and kind of that's what draws you in and kind of gives you that uncomfortableness with everything is those uh those unique throwback sounds. I think it's that retro familiarity that kind of it's that retro familiarity that kind of ties it in because a lot of us collectors and enthusiasts like the 80s and 90s are where we really got into pinball, you know, and pinball's advanced which is cool, you know, it's great. to modern day pinball, but to have like some homage paid, you know, going back to that day of the like mid to early 90s. Uh that for a lot of people was the heyday of uh of of pinball until you get into the modern day era. So, it's it was again I keep using the the term refreshing, but it was refreshing to hear. Well, it's funny. It's like in Dune, we Well, it's funny. It's like in Dune, we did a spinner sound that people absolutely hated. And one of the thing with people playing this game is like that is the best spinner sound I've heard in a pinball machine. So maybe we can redeem ourselves, including outlanes, but I don't know. There's some out. Yeah, we'll see about that one. Yeah, we'll see about that one. At least yours are adjustable. At least yours are adjustable. Yeah, they are adjustable. Yeah, they are adjustable. Mine won't. Mine won't. One kicks back. One kicks back. I got to get a t-shirt with that on. I got to get a t-shirt with that on. You got to get What about sculpts? So You got to get What about sculpts? So who who's making all the sculpts? Is Is that multiple people? Is that Is that one person? Is that a company? So that is one person. Um his name is So that is one person. Um his name is Steven. Steven. That's it. So Steven um Steven. Steven. That's it. So Steven um is a good friend of Johnny Fraser. So Jolan Anne Fraser who did the sculpts on Labyrinth uh he his friend from he used to work at Wed Studios and so like that he brought he wasn't able to work on this project cuz he had his own projects to work on. Um so he brought uh Steven in and uh he handled all of the sculpts for Dune and also this game. So, uh, so he is down in New Zealand tweaking away, making his little sculpts, and we just basically he would have the Solid Works project. He will give us the, uh, the step file for it. He will then take what our concept stories are, and then put that over to where they need to be in the game itself. And that's a lot of like how does it look, put it into the 3D world, lay it down, and see how it goes. And then Carl, are you working handinhand with Brad when it comes to the entire artwork package? For instance, when you take a look at the at the color scheme, um, it's something that I actually I really like it a lot. It's it's I'm not going to say refreshing because I've said it a bunch of times, but it's like it's all those colors that I like in a machine. In hindsight or or in forethought, I don't know that I would think that those colors would correlate to what I would consider like a haunted house pinball machine. In this instance, it seems like it's spot on. I think it's a lot of Brad's style in in the game and we did go back and forth a lot with colors and how to colorize the the the blueprint specifically. We had a lot of different shades of of and then adding the various ghost trails around the playfield. Um and we did get brown in the game too. and we did get brown in the game too. Got to have brown in the game. Signature move there with the brown. I Signature move there with the brown. I think it's your barrel's color. But yeah, we we worked we worked closely with Brad the entire time to to figure out exactly what shades of everything should be uh the crystal ball at the bottom making, you know, making sure that was clear to see everything and and that it meshed well with the with the map right next to it. Well, and it was really important. He Well, and it was really important. He understood pinball. So, we had talked to other artists. Um, you know, we don't we want to keep sure our games look refreshing. I mean, shout out to Johnny. He does an amazing work, but we want to make sure we got a stable of people that can work on different projects cuz a schedules don't allow for it. Um, but we want to keep the looks refreshing. So, we actually tried out a few other people before we got to Brad. And he is just intimate knowledge of And he is just intimate knowledge of pinball and how it plays. Like, most artists can do a cabinet. That seems pretty straightforward. But as soon as we get onto the playfield and they they most artists lose their mind because they don't understand well they you got to teach them that's a piece of UI that is how you're instructing the player to how to play the game and that usually breaks their head cuz they think in a 2D world and you got to think in a 3D world. And Brad just like hit the ground running. I mean he just he again his experience in playing pinball he understood the assignment. He crushed it and yeah, you got what? He's got those ball. Yeah, the spear He's got those ball. Yeah, the spear trails going on the ball paths is a great touch. The ornamentations on the inserts, he came up with all the ideas for that. Uh so the inserts weren't just, you know, pure arrows for the larger ones. He also came up with the spirit board a we had various again various types of spirit boards and he various types of spirit boards and he came up with the apron one. That's an amazing concept. I I That's an amazing concept. I I absolutely love that that apron, you know, largely has been underutilized space because nowadays everyone's looking to put lights in everything. You got lights and leg bolts these days it almost seems like. But that spearboard could you go back in and just kind of deep dive that slightly and how that came about, how that was implemented and I am assuming you're happy with it because I think it's a pretty remarkable part of the game, especially with the player who's always looking in that area between the flippers for the most part, you know, uh that's that's a hightraic area. Yeah, exactly. It should be quick Yeah, exactly. It should be quick reference for anyone playing the game. Uh we we just we had spirit board. We wanted a spirit board in the game somewhere with a planet and uh we we had it over the stands table. We had it a smaller one on the apron and just once Brad came in he came up with an idea just why don't we just use the whole apron and he gave a quick mockup of it and thought that's awesome and what if we light this up? Can we light up the individual letters instead of another plan that we were we had? Um and it it it just all came together. and it it it just all came together. It's fascinating that it it just worked how we wanted it to work and it looks so fun. Well, and you know the spirit board is Well, and you know the spirit board is what again Winchester that's that's the core thing that she would you know history says that she would call the spirits and have a silence every night from 12 to 2:00 a.m. So like it's natural for it to be a calling card because the spirits use that to communicate with her. So, right in front of the player, it absolutely made sense to have that in there. So, when you look down there, you're going to see ball one, player two, you're going to see those numbers down there. You we light up yes or no to questions. So, it's like the game, this is an opportunity for the game to communicate to the player that you're not alone. Mhm. Mhm. It's It's creepy, but it's creepy cool. It's It's creepy, but it's creepy cool. I I dig it. So, so Carl, approaching this game and starting to design it, can you kind of give us a r like, you know, kind of a generalized timeline in a sense of like what you started with? What what was your initial idea? Was it that turntable with the ball pads? Like what did you guys know that you needed to start with and then, you know, what what kind of progressed and, you know, built from there as ideas started to flow, right? It it wasn't the turntable. That right? It it wasn't the turntable. That was not the start of the game. It was really getting the falling tower in. We wanted that in there. We wanted a staircase to nowhere. We wanted a door to nowhere. So those were the three main elements. And then the idea started the turntable And then the idea started the turntable evolved from the staircase to nowhere because we wanted we wanted to have the player a diverter basically that would divert up that oneway ramp and and not so with a little tiny mech. And I thought, oh, what what if we make this a little bigger and added four ball paths to it and oh, this is working. let's let's make it even bigger and see if we can squeeze in just, you know, an insane number of ball paths. Um, so it all just kind of organically grew from those three elements. Uh, the door, the the tower, the tower was originally meant to have only like fall midame and have a completely different ball path. It would basically change the geometry of the playfield was the original idea. We we since backed away from that completely, but it does have a different ball path when it falls. Um, and same thing with the door. It was just another way I I always loved haunted God's haunted house and the the hidden target or the fake target that's in the middle of that where you shoot the ball and it goes into the basement. So, I wanted something similar to that and the door to nowhere was a perfect way to translate that style of mech or idea into the Winchester Mystery House. Can you explain that mech a little more? Can you explain that mech a little more? What is the the stairs to to nowhere in there? How does that physically interact in the game? So the staircase now where you can see it uh it's the one ramp that's kind of 90° from the player. It's uh off of the turntable and there's a magnet at the middle in the middle of that ramp. So the ball shoots up it the magnet is the ball is grabbed by the magnet. The turntable then rotates to send the ball into the basement. That's one of the ways you get the wheelbarrow ghost multiball. It's the locks for the wheelbarrow ghost multiball. Dare we say that Clyde uh Clyde is Dare we say that Clyde uh Clyde is grabbing the ball and putting it into the basement? Yeah, you could say that it's a spirit of some sort grabbing the ball for us. You guys have any moments where it got a You guys have any moments where it got a little spooky or eerie late at night, 2 a.m. designing something like, "Hey, I'm going to throw this spirit board on this playfield, light it up, starts talking to you." Anything kind of creepy? Any fun stories that maybe again with the team that maybe you we'd only share over a over a drink or two over late night at an expo?