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Falcon Crest is GO

This Flippin' Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 59m·analyzed·May 13, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Podcast reunion discussing custom rails, classic restorations, Fathom reissue strategy, and The Avengers (Premium) acquisitions.

Summary

This Flippin' Podcast episode 110 reunites hosts Tommy and Taylor James Rees after a 9-month hiatus caused by pandemic-related burnout. They discuss Taylor's thriving custom rail business, their home pinball collections (including restored Centaur and Stargazer), the upcoming Fathom reissue and its implications for classic game pricing, and recent acquisitions including The Avengers (Premium). The conversation explores restoration costs, playfield services, and speculation about future classic remakes.

Key Claims

  • Taylor has been making rails for over 15 years and experienced supply chain issues during the pandemic that forced temporary business closure

    high confidence · Taylor James Rees discussing his rail manufacturing business history and pandemic supply constraints

  • Tommy's home Jurassic Park has accumulated over 4,000 plays in approximately one year

    high confidence · Tommy stating play counts on his home Jurassic Park machine

  • Ron Kruseman's playfield clear-coating service takes 3-6 months and costs approximately $500-$550

    high confidence · Taylor describing Kruseman's clear-coat process and pricing

  • Taylor spent approximately $7,000 total on Fathom restoration, starting from a $2,000 base game acquisition

    high confidence · Taylor discussing his Fathom restoration costs including chrome trim and full restoration

  • A custom Stargazer build currently requires approximately $4,000 in parts alone before acquiring a base game

    high confidence · Taylor discussing spreadsheet costs for custom Stargazer build for a client

  • CPR playfields cost approximately $800, and with clear-coating adds another $500-$600 plus shipping

    high confidence · Tommy and Taylor discussing playfield and clear-coating service pricing

  • Stern sold 750 Mandalorian machines before public announcement

    medium confidence · Tommy stating this figure while discussing Stern's production capacity for classic remakes

  • Both hosts recently purchased The Avengers (Premium) machines, upgrading from Pro tier

    high confidence · Tommy and Taylor both confirming The Avengers (Premium) purchases with Captain Marvel ramp fix

Notable Quotes

  • “I think that for me, pinball is so much about hanging out with my friends that when I no longer could really do that, I just kind of went to a – I just became kind of disinterested in talking about it.”

    Taylor James Rees @ early in episode — Explains the 9-month hiatus from the podcast and the social nature of pinball culture during pandemic isolation

  • “I've been making rails, making rails is the longest job that I've ever held. I've been doing it now for, I think over 15 years.”

    Taylor James Rees @ early segment — Establishes Taylor's tenure and expertise in custom rail manufacturing

  • “It's so beautiful. I love it. It's a literal work of art. I think the only game with better art is Fathom. But, like, gameplay, I get why they were all beat to share out on location back in the day because it is super multiball heavy.”

    Tommy @ middle segment discussing Centaur — Contrasts aesthetic appeal with gameplay depth in classic machines

  • “If you're trying to sell a base game Fathom at $5,000, that somebody then has to throw in another $4,000 to get to a new in-box game, it doesn't make any sense.”

    Tommy @ discussion of Fathom reissue impact — Questions the viability of high secondary market prices for classics when reissues become available

  • “I cannot imagine that Stern didn't see that announcement and see how many they sell and isn't like, well, start getting Stargazer and Seawitch playfields ready because we're making them.”

    Tommy @ speculation segment — Anticipates follow-up classic remakes based on Fathom's market reception

  • “His turnaround time is six months? Yeah, essentially. That's good. It depends on what you're sending him. Like if you order something from CPR and send it straight there, He likes to let it sit for several months.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ playfield service discussion — Explains the rationale behind Kruseman's lengthy clear-coating process

  • “When you start looking at what it costs to tool up and manufacture a classic on a relatively small run, realistically, it's not going to be cheap.”

Entities

Taylor James ReespersonTommypersonThis Flippin' PodcastorganizationJurassic ParkgameAvengers: Infinity QuestgameFathomgameCentaurgame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: This Flippin' Podcast had 9-month hiatus during pandemic; hosts cite burnout from inability to play socially and lack of engagement opportunity; return signals renewed interest in pinball community discourse

    high · Both hosts confirm 9-month gap; Taylor explains social isolation made pinball discussion feel disconnected from community aspect of hobby

  • ?

    operational_signal: Custom rail manufacturer experienced material sourcing crisis during pandemic; forced temporary business closure; recovered through material sourcing diversification and order throttling

    high · Taylor describes dark period when supplier stopped producing materials; required business closure; eventually sourced alternative materials to resume production at high volume

  • ?

    product_strategy: Haggis Fathom reissue pricing (~$12,000) positioned as equivalent to full restoration costs; raises strategic question about secondary market viability of $5,000-$6,000 base games requiring $4,000-$7,000 additional restoration investment

    high · Tommy's $7,000 Fathom restoration from $2,000 base; discussion of how reissue pricing impacts collector math; prediction that new Fathoms will cannibalize secondary market demand

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market prices for classic machines (Fathom $5,000-$6,000, Stargazer custom builds $4,000+ in parts alone) suggest scarcity premium; reissue announcements expected to pressure base game values downward

    high · Both hosts discuss how Fathom reissue will force base game price adjustment; Tommy predicts Stern will produce additional classic remakes (Stargazer, Sea Witch) based on Fathom sales success

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.357

0:00
The episode you are about to hear contains explicit words. The opinions within are those of the host and in no way imply that anyone listening to this podcast agrees with anything we say. Please send complaints to theslipandpodcast at tv.com.
0:30
I know this is fundamentally correct But it comes to you Here is the direction of him To stop the affection we're making
1:00
Thank you. How's that? That's good, man. This is fucking cool. I obviously have no idea what episode this is. Oh, dude, me neither. That's cool. Episode 1B?
1:50
Yeah. I recorded something not too long ago. This would technically be 110, apparently. Yeah, you did the alien, right? Is that the last one? The fathom thing. Oh, the fathom thing. Oh, the fathom.
2:08
Haggis. Yeah. Haggis fathom. Yeah, I guess we'll just do our thing. That sounds good to me. You still remember how to press the buttons and you take it you're recording this? I'm already, I'm recording right now. Oh, perfect. Let's shoot for like, let's try to do an hour. Let's not go crazy.
2:32
Works for me, man. Yeah, it's good, man. It's good to talk to you. But yeah, we can get into that a little bit.

Tommy @ late segment on Fathom pricing — Contextualizes manufacturing complexity and cost justification for reissue pricing

  • “I went over there, and they had Avengers, and I went in. It was really weird. Like I was playing with other people for the first time in a long time, so I was just like kind of freaked out.”

    Tommy @ Avengers discussion — Captures the social hesitancy during early pandemic recovery period

    • Star Gazer
    game
    Ron Krusemanperson
    CPR (Classical Pinball Restoration)company
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Haggis Pinballcompany
    Keith Elwinperson
    Pinsideorganization
    Michaelperson
    The Beatlesgame
    Seawitchgame
    Quicksilvergame
    Rollergamesgame
    Ghostbustersgame

    restoration_signal: Specialized playfield clear-coating services (Ron Kruseman) charge $500-$550 for 3-6 month turnaround using thin layer methodology; cost/time trade-off reflects quality durability vs. mass manufacturing speed

    high · Detailed discussion of Kruseman's process; Tommy tested dimple resistance by throwing pinballs at test area; turnaround time explained as necessary for paint curing and sanding

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Strong speculation that Stern will produce additional classic remakes following Fathom announcement; candidates include Stargazer, Sea Witch, and Quicksilver based on secondary market demand and collector interest

    medium · Tommy: 'I cannot imagine that Stern didn't see that announcement and see how many they sell and isn't like, well, start getting Stargazer and Sea Witch playfields ready'; discussion of cabinet tooling economics supporting multi-game strategy

  • ?

    product_launch: Both podcast hosts upgraded to Avengers Premium tier machines; purchase decision influenced by accessibility features (Captain Marvel ramp fix) rather than clearly defined Pro tier limitations

    high · Both hosts confirm Avengers Premium purchases; Tommy notes feeling 'icky about' premium tier upgrade; both machines include Captain Marvel ramp fix

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Analysis of Centaur (classic) vs. modern games reveals trade-off: Centaur beautiful art but multiball-heavy, limited rule depth; modern games (Jurassic Park, Avengers) offer deeper rule sets and better playfield geometry

    high · Tommy: 'gameplay, I get why they were all beat to share out on location back in the day because it is super multiball heavy'; notes Frontier as superior rules example from classic era

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern sold 750 Mandalorian machines before public announcement; high pre-announcement sales confidence suggests strong demand projection for known IP; used as baseline for classic reissue production planning

    medium · Tommy: 'They just sold 750 Mandalorians, which we're going to talk about, guys, where the new game was just announced, before it was ever publicly announced'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Haggis Fathom reissue uses high-end automotive reflective paint for cabinet instead of traditional stencil method; approach represents departure from classic cabinet aesthetics but reflects modern manufacturing constraints

    medium · Taylor mentions reflective paint seen on Mermaid Edition; both hosts debate merits vs. stencil approach; discussion of practicality in modern manufacturing context

  • ?

    collector_signal: Tommy's home Jurassic Park achieved 4,000+ plays in ~1 year (estimated average 10+ plays per day); indicates exceptionally high engagement level for home owner; contrasts with 2,100 plays on location machine

    high · Tommy: 'Those 4,000 plays, I've gotten to it, I think, twice'; detailed gameplay discussion including late-night sessions playing until 1-2 AM

    • 2:40
    But yeah, I'm ready to go when you are. All right. Well, this is episode 110 of This Flippin' Podcast. And if you hear that familiar voice there, Taylor Reese is back for this episode. we continue to make no commitments whatsoever to bringing you content on any sort of regular basis. But just personally, I got a smile on my face right now, so I'm happy to talk to you, Taylor. I miss you, buddy. I'm glad you felt the need or the desire to talk a little pinball. And as always, man, it's good to see you. How you been? I've been good, man. Yeah, it's good to talk to you, too. I mean, it's been a crazy year. We have not recorded together for nine months.
    3:22
    Yeah, I knew it was up there. I wasn't sure if it was nine months or close to a year. I think it was September 6th is the last time I see that we were on Hangouts. So I assume that was the last episode.
    3:34
    That would make sense, yeah. And it's not that we have not stayed in contact, but we just haven't recorded an episode. For those of you that are out there going, oh, no, they fell off the face of the earth with each other, we still are in some group chats together and touch base with each other and all that good stuff. But, yeah, we haven't sat down to just talk about pinball in quite some time. Yeah, it's been a crazy year, obviously, for everybody. I think that for me, I just needed a break. I think my big thing was, like, for me, pinball is so much about, like, hanging out with my friends that when I no longer could really do that, I just kind of, like, went to a – I just became kind of disinterested in talking about it. I've played you know I play all the time you know my own games but I haven't like yeah so that was kind of like I guess the impetus for like why I felt like I needed a break because it just felt weird like I wasn't like really sure what to talk about and then yeah I just had other stuff going on so I don't know yeah I mean in the year of the pandemic realistically like sitting down and recording a podcast about something that we weren't as active doing didn't you know see how it wasn't high on our priority list I did occasionally record in your absence but nothing uh nothing too crazy I maybe put out a handful of episodes when I just kind of got bored and felt like talking pinball into a microphone. So I know we had some Facebook comments recently on something that we were both tagged in or posted in, and someone mentioned they missed our dynamic relationship of the podcast. And I have to agree. I like our whatever it is that we have. Yeah, I think it's good, man. Yeah, I miss talking to you. And there's definitely times where I was like, oh, yeah, we should record. But then I also didn't want to be, like, the quitter who, like, couldn't quit. Like, I didn't want to be the uncommitted quitter.
    5:51
    The boxer who keeps coming back for another try. But I'm also, like, you know, I have a mod company where I keep closing my business, but I never stop. So I am definitely, like, the guy who cried wolf over and over again. Yeah, I've noticed your thread says closed all the time, but, like, yeah, you're taking orders constantly. And I know you sent a video today. Like, I think you said you have the most rails in a production you've ever had. It's been crazy. I mean, and honestly, I had to say that I was closed because I was so busy that I felt like if I was open. So one of the things that the pandemic – how the pandemic affected me, like we've been pretty fortunate that my kids have been able to be virtual the whole time. My wife has worked from home.
    6:46
    Going into it, I was a stay-at-home dad, so I didn't have an obligation to go into work or anything like that. And so, you know, but I was doing the rails and the way that I make my rails, like I order my material from a company and they basically stop producing it.
    7:10
    So I got to a point where I basically was like, I'm going to run out of material. I have to shut down. And that was a pretty dark point for me because that's just something that I've done for. I've made rails, making rails is the longest job that I've ever held.
    7:28
    Like I've been, I've been, I mean, that sounds stupid, but I, I've been doing it now for, I think over 15 years. I mean, to be fair, that's a long time. My longest job is working at the bar because that's going on like nine years now. Yeah, but I mean that's like – That bar. As far as like consistency, like I've been doing that for as – I mean I've been doing that forever.
    7:56
    And so I hit a point where I was like I'm going to run out of material. I am not going to be able to take orders. And so I had to close, and it sucked. Like I was in a dark place, man. Like Chris and my wife can attest. He was like, yeah, it was just not good. And but I managed to I'm not sure how, but like I kind of like tapered back a little bit. I never like didn't take orders. But I think that by by saying that I was closed, I slowed the orders down enough.
    8:35
    And like I wasn't really on Pennside. And then I posted Pennside like that's my primary. That's my primary way that I like get orders and stuff like that. and so, you know, I posted on there that I was closed, and I've continued to make rails, and I, and I basically, I posted my, I have a thread on there, and I posted there to just update people, that's, I post, like, everybody reaching out, like, hey, what's the status of my rails, like, I post pictures of, like, the process, so you can see, basically, exactly, like, people can follow along like with where the rails are in the process and it's just been nuts man like I finally figured out my material issue I so I was able to source material and I just been making crazy amount of rails but um but yeah so I'm closed I've been officially closed but I I have to say like in the summers I do take the summers off because the humidity and like my kids like they're out of school. So, you know, it's like we try to travel and stuff like that. So I do take the summer off. So I will have to like officially shut down, shut down. Tommy is like doing some weird camera angle. I'm trying to, I'm trying to get comfortable in my pinball spare parts room right now. Tommy is on. So, so if, if, if you could see what I saw, Tommy is laying on the floor in front, like, uh, there's a, I think an EM, there's an EM behind him. There may be an EM on top of him, but there's just like pinball parts and crap surrounding him. But this is, yeah, this is classic Tommy. This is what I get. This is what I miss. I miss this down the list. I'm currently resting my head on a box.
    10:18
    My head is resting on a box that contains a coin door for a Stern electronic pinball machine I just bought. Yeah, I'm doing good. Doing good over here.
    10:27
    Yeah, so the rail stuff has been crazy. Yeah, it's been super busy, which is, I mean, it's, I mean, my kids are in school during the day my wife is working and so I'll go in the garage and pump out rails and um and I think that's a an offshoot of the pandemic to you because I mean I know me personally I've worked on pinball machines more this year than I ever have and I think a lot of other people took this down time to knock out those restorations they were always going to eventually get to and uh suddenly your rails were in more demand than ever I believe yeah it's been And, I mean, I've not – yeah, it's worked out well. Like, I have to say, like, I've been able to – the turnover has been pretty good.
    11:09
    Weather has cooperated. I think for me the thing that's tough with the rails is, like, I really enjoy making them. Like, I like the process of making them. And so – I mean, you're essentially – you have a lot of – are you a carpenter by trade? Is that essentially what you were trained to do? Well – I mean, I know you worked in as a carpenter essentially on Hollywood films, but it's something you have a skill and a passion for. I mean, my background is my background is sculpture.
    11:38
    So, I mean, through fine arts is kind of where I was introduced to like using tools and stuff like that. And then certainly like I my carpentry was through like working in film. So I was a prop maker, which is a carpenter. um and I I think that like my process comes from that like I have a process like I there's there's certain things that I do when I make rails that I've definitely taken from working on building movie sets because yeah um I just make it work you know what I mean like because a lot of the rails are just like you get like tapered slots on like solid states and stuff like that and like so have to make gigs.
    12:25
    I had to develop a process to where I could make them efficiently enough that it was worth my time. You know what I mean?
    12:37
    Yeah. But so, yeah, the real thing's been good. I've been doing that a lot, keeping busy with that. I've played a lot of pinball. A lot of Jurassic. Yeah. I was going to say, I've recently checked my audit of my track. Your mic sounds like it's all scratchy. How about now? No, it's still scratchy.
    13:06
    I don't know what's going on. How about now? It's still scratchy. Push the cord back in the back. That's better. I can already tell it's better.
    13:16
    Okay. Sorry. That's better. Good? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Awesome. Sorry about that, guys. Yeah, I checked my audits on my Jurassic Park that's been on location since it literally was brought home, and it's at 2,100 plays.
    13:31
    Yeah. It's a playable game. Oh, yeah, but that's a game that's on location. Yours has been in your house for, like, what, a year? No, I got it during, oh, yeah, maybe a year.
    13:44
    Close to a year. And you're at, what, 9,000 plays? No, I don't know. I have probably – I don't know, over 4,000.
    13:54
    Oh, wow. I just – that amazes me. I'm so jealous. I mean, you know, I would come down at night after my kids went to bed, and I would play until like 1 or 2 a.m. every night, and I would just play Jurassic Park over and over again.
    14:12
    Oh, yeah, I get it. It's a game that will suck you in. It's, and I almost, you know, and then I did the pin clash thing, which was fun.
    14:24
    And that was the first time, like, I ever really played Escape Nublar. Yeah, same thing. That tournament got me into trying out that as well. Yeah, I mean, like, super, I mean, it's a super cool mode, but it's also, as a home owner, like, I didn't want to get, I didn't want to play, I want to earn the wizard mode. Like, I've never been into, like, doing the cheat code so you could play a wizard mode like Twilight Zone or anything like that. It makes you feel better. It's different if you actually get to it. I've gotten to it.
    14:53
    Yeah. I've gotten to it. I think I've gotten to it. Those 4,000 plays, I've gotten to it, I think, twice.
    14:59
    Nice. Well, there you go. But after, I mean, after the pin clash, I was definitely like, okay, I am not going to play this until I can earn it. And then I was like, I need to get to it. I think I've gotten to it twice, and the first time I've gotten to it twice.
    15:19
    It was pretty awesome. It's a great game. I think Jurassic Park's great. Yeah, it's an amazing game. What have you been playing at home?
    15:34
    Not – well, Stargazer a lot. Yeah. because I built it and it was fun. And Centaur as well. I'd say those are the two I've been playing at home for the most part. My aerobatics that you can kind of see behind me covered in some stuff. Did you restore Centaur? Did that?
    15:54
    I was very fortunate that my friend Michael did the play field swap largely for me during wrestling season since I was so busy. Yeah. I helped wire up the lights and I helped redo some of the connectors and stuff, redid the Coindor, but he did, like, all the mechanisms and all of the actual swapping.
    16:13
    So that was awesome. And then I'm trying to think. I think I put mostly new boards in that one, and I got a back glass from Koos from the Netherlands, so I got, like, a mirrored back glass on the Centaur. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will say, after having now had those at home and kind of tying into, like, Haggis, and obviously they're redoing Fathom, and they said they're going to do other bellies, I think, without a doubt, Centaur will be next, just based on the value of the machines. But out of all my ballets that I have, I have to say Centaur for, like, gameplay is at the bottom of my list. It's, like, it's so beautiful. I love it. It's a literal work of art. I think the only game with better art is Fathom. But, like, gameplay, I get why they were all beat to share out on location back in the day because it is super multi-ball heavy. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's basically what you're trying to do. I had never spent, yeah, I had never spent a lot of time on Centaur before. because you just don't see them that often. And then after having it for a while and, like, learning the rules, I'm just like, holy shit, this game, as far as the rule set goes, is, like, just not as good as some of the other valleys of the area. I still think Frontier might be, like, my favorite when it comes to, like, purely rules at this point. But, yeah, it's beautiful, and I love it, and I can't thank Michael enough for doing that for me. He loves working on machines so that, you know, he enjoys it. But it turned out beautiful. It's got some white Reese rails in it, which really make it look great. I sprung for the mirrored plastics from CPR, which you can't really tell are mirrored anyway, so don't waste your money on them if anyone else out there is looking to redo them. It's not that they did a bad job on them or anything. It's just one of those things you don't really see or notice when you're playing in a game at all. You have to really point it out for someone to be like, hey, look, that's mirrored. That cost me extra.
    17:58
    And Ron Kruseman cleared that play field for me. So that's my first game with a Cruisman playfield actually installed. And I do have to say it does not dimple like he advertises. Really?
    18:10
    Yeah, I got kind of ballsy and wanted to test it. So I did it under the apron area, but I just like legit threw pinballs at it.
    18:20
    From like me standing up in that playfield being on the ground and like throwing it down, not just dropping it. And it did not dimple. I was impressed. That's crazy.
    18:30
    Yeah. Yeah, he explained it to me essentially. It's just like his process of taking time, but that's why when you send a play field to him to get clear-coated, it takes like three to six months because he does really thin layers and he waits like two weeks in between each coat and sands it in the meanwhile, and it just makes it get really hard. His turnaround time is six months?
    18:51
    Yeah, essentially. That's good. It depends on what you're sending him. Like if you order something from CPR and send it straight there, He likes to let it sit for several months to make sure it's going to do whatever it's going to do, which as when we first started talking, you were like, what play field is that? I got a Volton Escapes Copper Doom play field from CPR almost a year ago, maybe a year ago. It's coming up on that right around there. And when I first got it, it was one of the earlier digital prints that they did. I was like, this looks amazing compared to some of the other CPRs I've seen. The clear coat was awesome. And now that it's been sitting here a year, I can like feel some insert edging. I can see the wood grain in it. And I'm not complaining. I just get that's the process. That's what happens.
    19:30
    But that's why Ron doesn't want to clear that stuff right away because then that's going to eventually happen underneath his clear coat and you'll see it. So he likes to wait until they're all settled before he adds his stuff to it. Does he have a website or is it – what's the best way to get in touch with him if you want to use him? He is very active on Pinside. Yeah, he's got a thread. He has his crewman on there. And he does have a website. It's pinballplayfieldscrewsman.com. and it just has a menu and a literal full list of like you click the list button and it shows you a list of everything he has and if you click it it takes you to a page just for that playfield and has all the photos of it and stuff so he's got quite the inventory of playfields i've been to his compound it's like if you really enjoy playfields and playfield art it's one of the coolest places you can visit because i can't imagine there's too many places that have that sort of collection of playfields to see. I just picked up a – the last time I was up there to pick up a playfield from them, I brought back another one for a guy who lives near me. It was a new old stock prototype Dolly Parton playfield that Ron clear-coded, and it was freaking just beautiful.
    20:40
    Absolutely beautiful. So, yeah, it is possible to get your playfields that are dimple-free, but it is time-consuming, and therefore it is expensive because time and money are correlated with one another. So if you want your pinball machines to be priced like Stern pinball machines are priced, which is very fair in today's market, the reality is they're going to be mass produced and done so quickly, and therefore you're going to sacrifice some of the quality. That's just that whole do you want good and expensive or cheap and fast? What kind of money are you dropping on a play field? What's a price range? for a... I think his clear code is like $500 or $550.
    21:24
    That's not bad. For the clear code service. Well, it's on top of, you gotta think you pay, you know, what's a CPR playfield? $800. And then you're paying another $5 or $5 to $6 on top of that. Plus you got shipping in between there. It adds up quickly. It adds up, but I mean... If it's a game you know you're gonna keep and you want it to last forever, yeah, to me it's definitely worth it. I mean, I think that's one of the things that's interesting about Fathom, and knowing that classics are going to be made, it'll be interesting to see what that does to the value of base games. because that's the thing. Like, you could pick up, I mean, I know what you sold your Stargazer for, but if you could pick up a Centaur for $4,000 and do a full restoration on it for maybe $7,000, right? You know what I mean? So, as an example, with my Fathom that I got, when I got that, I got the game and the CPR play field for $2,000, which was a, I got a great deal. Now, how, when was that though? Three years ago, roughly. That's, that's a really good deal even then. Oh, it was, it was an amazing deal when I got it. Like I was, I drove in as quick as I could to pick that thing up because I knew I was And it came with a play field? It came with an alien poker and I traded the alien poker for the Fathom play field. Okay. So, so, so wait. So basically, to have the Fathom and the CPR Playfield, I was in $2,000.
    23:02
    Now, that being said, with the whole restoration, all the parts that I did, and, like, doing the chrome trim and everything, I spent very close to what a Haggis pinball machine costs. Really? Okay. And that was starting with a $2,000 base game, essentially. Which is insane. Like, a Fathom now, like a base game Fathom, you're looking at, like, five to six. Yeah, five to six. Yeah. So that's just when people, when I saw the Haggis pricing, like, yes, it is high for what you're getting. But at the same time, like, I know what it's going to cost to redo a Fathom. And again, I added Chrome, everything. Like, I went all out on that game. Like, it's new, you know, new play field. Bad Glass was original. The cabinet was repainted, et cetera. But, like, yeah, like, it adds up very quickly. People don't realize, like, with the Stargazer, as you mentioned, I did sell it. There's a thread on Pinside. If you want to get the details, go look at that. But anyway, I didn't think it would sell. It sold, and more people wanted it. And actually, another guy is trying to hire me right now to build him one. So, like, when I built that one, I started with a very cheap base game that I just happened to have picked up. And I collected parts over years. I know we've been talking about it on the show for years. Like, oh, I got this part for the game. Eventually, I'll build it. Well, quarantine happened and I did. But anyway, this guy wants me to build it. So I started like throwing together an actual spreadsheet with all the parts I would need and stuff to show him.
    24:30
    And I mean, without a base game and like definitely not all the parts yet. I'm already at $4,000 in parts. Yeah. So I'm trying to show the guy like, do you want it? Like, I'll do it. But this is what, you know, you're looking at. So anyway, that's just one of those things to keep in mind. Like I totally get. yes, pinball prices are ridiculous right now, but when you start looking at what it costs to tool up and manufacture a classic on a relatively small run, realistically, it's not going to be cheap. I think it'll be interesting to see what it does to the pricing of those classic games because it seems like it would drive down the base game price because if you're trying to sell a base game – but look, if you're trying to sell a base game Fathom at $5,000, that somebody then has to throw in another $4,000 to get to a new in-box game, it doesn't make any sense. Like you've got to work – Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm saying. I think people will just buy those new at that point. Right, yeah. So you have to start working back, right? If it plays the same. That's the mystery. It's like, yeah.
    25:39
    That's what it's all going to come down to in the mystery. And, again, this is like the first one, kind of an experiment. But still, I cannot imagine that Stern didn't see that announcement and see how many they sell and isn't like, well, start getting Stargazer and Sea Witch playfields ready because we're making them. Do you think that'll happen?
    25:57
    Let's see how well Fathom does. I mean, I don't know. I love the Beatles, which is essentially a modified Sea Witch.
    26:03
    If it was pro-pricing, as I've stated before, I would buy one. I think it was awesome. When it comes to Sea Witch, the Beatles versus the original, they improved the geometry and made it a better game.
    26:17
    So that helped. With something like Stargazer, I think Stargazer actually already has really good geometry, and I don't think they'd have to change as much. And I think part of the appeal of Stargazer, as well as with Fathom, is in the original artwork. Like, they're beautiful packages.
    26:32
    Same with Sea Witch. I think that game is a beautiful art package they could sell. Now, if they redid Quicksilver, that's an ugly-ass game. That is a lot of green. That is just a green-ass game. and I could see why you would maybe modify the art on that one a little bit. But at the same time, like, it's, again, a great geometric game and a great shooter, and it already has good rules, so you don't really need to do a ton to change. And those are selling for crazy high prices right now, too, to where, like, people are building those. There's several documented threads right now of people building them. Well, I mean, if you could, like, if they could get, like, a base. Okay, so they've got to have a cabinet, right? It's got to have, like, the classic cabinet.
    27:10
    I mean, I think. I don't even think. Just throw it in a modern cabinet. No, no, no. I would want it to be a reproduction. You want it to look original. Gotcha. I think that if you're going to buy a game like a classic, then you want the classic look. But I think about like Woe Nelly, and I think about like such a small run like on a game like that, the price point that they were able to sell that at, there's no reason why they couldn't do. If they were like, hey, we're going to do five classic titles. We're going to limit it to 200 to do an LE. They would sell out. They just sold 750 Mandalorians, which we're going to talk about, guys, where the new game was just announced, before it was ever publicly announced. So I'm telling you, they're going to sell out a hell of a lot more than 200 of Stargazer, Quicksilver, whatever. But I'm just thinking, like, what's a number for them? Because they've done small run, right? So they've done what? Yeah, they've done small run. They've done small runs, so they can do that. They've done that. They did the heavy metal. But if they knew that they could sell 1,000 of each of those titles, it's like, okay, we need to have – it would make sense for them to have the tooling. Tool up for a 5,000 cabinet. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be worth it. I get what you're saying. And if they could all use the same cabinet as well, it's like – then it's just – I mean, even if they did the original artwork as a decal, which would be kind of lame, but they would. I mean you would. Yeah. It would just make sense. Now what is Haggis doing? Are they stenciling or is it a decal?
    28:48
    I don't know. I know it's like reflected on the Mermaid Edition it's some sort of reflective paint. I think it's like a high end automotive reflective paint. They shared the video of it. So I assume that has to be paint then but to me that just seems dumb because when was the last time they made a game that was painted? late 80s i almost feel like you have to i feel like you have to do a stencil cabinet though yeah i mean that's part of what makes them classics and that's part of what makes restored machines stand out so much is when you see those like vibrant cabinet colors and you can literally fill feel the paint layers on them and yeah i don't know it depends like i said if you tell me you're releasing stern releasing a brand new stargazer with a decaled cabinet but with modern parts for pro pricing you know 50 whatever a hundred Yeah I fucking in Yeah Well yes Yeah I mean I mean I know what it going to cost to try to build one and plus the time and effort and pain in the assness of it So like yeah I be in real quick
    29:53
    All right, so speaking of new games, I have a new game, and there's a new game that's been announced.
    30:02
    Yeah, let's go. You broke up real quick. because I'm curious to get your impression. Oh, Avengers. I picked up an Avengers premium. I went premium, which I feel kind of icky about, but that's just where we are. As did I.
    30:25
    It's really interesting. Was it like did we both feel that we were missing out on stuff from Keith's first two games that we were finally like, fuck it, I'm getting a premium? Or was there something specific to Avengers that was so cool that we had to upgrade? I don't, honestly, I don't know. I think that on, I mean, I don't really know enough about the Pro to know what's missing. And I heard really. The Captain Marvel ramp.
    30:51
    But, yeah, I don't know. Does yours have the Captain Marvel ramp fix on it? It does. It has, like, the little plastic thing on the left side. Yeah, the little 3D printed thing. Yeah, same here. Yeah, I think I must have. I bought it like that. So I bought my game from some friends of mine who they bought it new in box. They had it like he did a bunch of fixes to it or whatever. Like, you know, you put the cliffies on it. He put the dialing it in. That's where you dialed it in. And I went over to their house like this is this is my first pandemic pinball excursion. I went over to my friend's house, and they had set up some pinball machines in his shed. And at this point, I think at this point I had been vaccinated. I had had my second dose, and I was a week into my second dose. I was almost like whatever, 95%. And so I went over there, and so they had a couple games in his shed, and then if you went inside, you wore a mask.
    31:59
    So they had Avengers, and I went in. I think I joked with them before about buying it, and I went in and I played it. It was really weird. Like I was playing with other people for the first time in a long time, so I was just like kind of freaked out. But, yeah, I played Avengers, and I did not understand it at all. I was super hyped about it, and I was – but I was – yeah, but I was super hyped about it. And I told him, I was like, look, you know, when you guys are, you know, I was kind of joking. I was like, when you guys are ready to sell, let me know. And then. You were like, I'm rolling in the streets rail, so just let me know when it's time to hand you the cash. I had sold my roller games a while back. I don't know why. I sold roller games because I was at. Prepping for Avengers. No, I sold. No, you know what? I moved. I don't know what happened. I sold.
    32:57
    I needed room when I got Jurassic Park. So I moved Roller Games back into my shop, and then I sold that. So I had the money for that. And then – Oh, yeah, and then you sold the good old Ghostbusters. I sold Ghostbusters, finally. I know. It's not like fucking finally.
    33:16
    Hey, we've only been doing the show for five years, and only four of it were you saying you were – how long have we been doing the show? Anyway, you've been saying you're going to sell it for like a while. So I finally sold Ghostbusters. Did they take the spare cabinet? They did take the spare cabinet. Do you think they'll swap it, or are we going to see that on, like, Facebook Marketplace? I don't know. I think that they will swap it. The cabinet I had, my original cabinet, was, like, it was split. Like, it was definitely. Oh, yeah, I saw the split. It was intense. It was split. And I will say, like, Stern, like, Stern sent me a new cabinet, and I really appreciated it. Like, they were great with that.
    33:51
    But, yeah, I went with the cabinet. I got my asking price because, frankly, the market's insane right now.
    34:00
    Dude, you saw my car, Gage. Yeah, I still can't believe it. The market is nuts. It's crazy. We're morons for sitting on our games. Totally. Because they'll sell for about whatever you put on there right now. Yeah, totally.
    34:12
    So I did see what – so it was interesting. So I posted my Ghostbusters for sale, but I didn't do like a pin side ad. Like I was just like, hey, because there was like a regional pin side thread, and I was like, hey, I've got a Ghostbusters. And I had somebody who reached out, and they wanted me to – they asked me to drive it to their house, and then they were going to give me a deposit if I – it was just a weird kind of situation. Like I had to drive it to their house and then there was, you know, then at that point they might decide that they don't want it, but I could keep the deposit. And I was like, I don't have time for that. Like I was, I, I just don't have time to do that.
    34:58
    And so then I was like, I can't remember what it was. Oh, oh, so my friend was like, he reached out like a week later or maybe it was two weeks later. He's like, hey, we're ready to sell Avengers. and I was like, oh shit, okay.
    35:15
    Like they had made it seem like, hey, it's going to be a while. You know, yeah, well, you're first in line, but we're going to hold on to it for a while. And then it was like, boom, it's available. So I was like, all right, look, I want it, but I have to list Ghostbusters. And so I listed Ghostbusters for 5,700, which is crazy to me. I don't know, it's crazy. and I had like a bunch of emails and then finally like this guy was just like I won it he lived close which was great like there was no shipping involved and he came over he picked it up and he drove away with it and then that night I went and I picked up an Avengers that's a nice day man that's a good day when you can get rid of a game and bring the game Yeah, it was pretty good. So Avengers. So here's my take on Avengers. My initial reaction to Avengers when I put – Wait, before you share this.
    36:14
    So we're in a group Discord, and you described this earlier today. Oh. Two of the people in the room reached out to me later and were like, Taylor hit the nail on the head with his description of Avengers. So I hope you describe it similarly as to how you did it. I should just go back and read that. there. It's okay. I'll pull it up and I'll read it if I need to. But yeah, I just thought it was funny that like, I'll be like, that's exactly it. So, okay. So when I, when I played Avengers at my friend's house, I had a good friend of mine. I mean, I have to say like, it was, it was really great playing with people. Like it was really, really good playing with people. And, um, I had, so one of my, one of my good friends, Dave was trying to explain to me like, what to do. Like, he was trying to explain to me the rules. And I am a Keith Elwin. I have all of Keith Elwin's games now. I'm a big fan of his. But I am not a person who watches videos to learn the rules on games because I want to learn the rules as I'm playing the game.
    37:21
    As I'm playing it at my friend's house, my friend Dave is trying to explain to me, like, certain shit. and I'm like, all right, like I'm, I'm masked up. I'm like, this is our first time to play with people. I can't, I can't focus at all. I don't know what the fuck he's talking about. And then, um, so I get it home and I'm playing it. I'm playing it in my house and I I'm a grinder. Like I will play for a really long time. And I'm, I, I, I consider myself a relatively intelligent in person. Um, and the rules are so convoluted that I am, I'm, I'm having a really, I'm having a really tough time figuring out what I should be doing. Um, I am figuring it out, uh, but I'm still struggling with a lot of the aspects of the rules that there's just, it doesn't, it's not a very clear game on, as to what you're supposed to do.
    38:29
    I think that one of the problems that I have with it, now, people who've played Avengers, I mean, and I've reached out to people, I've reached out to several people, and we've just chatted about because I just didn't understand the fundamentals of the gems stuff.
    38:49
    And I did have some people like chat with Chris Palace a little bit about it because he was he was excited when he saw that I got one. So he's like, you know, what do you think? What do you think? And, you know, I was like, dude, I just do not understand this game. Like, I don't understand what's going on.
    39:08
    I love the flow of the game. I think the flow is amazing. Like, you can just combo all day. It's like a really open play field, but it's still, because of the wire forms, the way the wire forms work on a play field, it doesn't feel like it's sparse.
    39:25
    Yeah, it feels like there's a ton of shots. There's a ton of shots in the game, and, like, once you get, like, the Hawkeye, the ramp return shot, like that feels so good. Like just comboing and also like learning, like there's certain combos you can do that will extend your comboing, right? So like if you hit the Marvel ramp, it'll open up your center shot again, which is an easier shot. So you hit the Black Widow shot and then all of a sudden it's like you can hit Black Panther. So it's like you start figuring this stuff out. But there are times where there's so much stuff going on that I absolutely cannot follow what I'm supposed to be shooting.
    40:08
    And especially, like, if I'm in a gem quest, I can't remember. I was playing today, and I don't know what gem it was. It's the red gem where it's, like, Hulk, the Hulk. It's the power gem. The power gem. I'm playing the power gem. I don't know what that one does either. I'm in, like, so I'm, like, I've got two portal locks, which you earn by doing combos, and that allows you to, like, you start your gem quest. Now, this is the shit I figured out and learned from people helping me and just playing. But, you know, like, your portal locks are multipliers because they add more balls into play. So, like, TNA, the more balls you have in play, the higher multiplier is for the multiball. so you know you get your portal locks you start a quest and then you're playing it and then you can bring in a multi-ball so you can bring in thor multi-ball or you can bring an iron man multi-ball but at that point when you have like when you stack multi-balls and you've got portal locks and all this shit, like, there is, it's really, really difficult to follow what is actually happening as far as, like, your objectives, right? So, like, you might have a final blow lit and you don't know it. Like, the game doesn't give, in my opinion, the game doesn't give you enough information or enough fanfare or enough direction when you're in, like, these really intense multi-balls to really know what to shoot for, and then you just end up flailing.
    41:44
    Right? So my tip, so I'm doing what you described, is I almost always try to get portal locks before I start a mode or a gem mode, and I like to have a multi-ball ready to bring in.
    42:00
    I personally ignore my multi-ball jackpots. Oh, yeah. And I focus, like, solely on the color gem shots. So, like, if I'm in the power gem, the red mode, I am just looking for red shots during that multi-ball. And I'm using the hell out of my ball save and letting shit drain to hit my red shots, you know. So that's what I do. I do agree that it would be nice if there was, like, a very powerful call-out, like, when you got to that final blow that's like, final blow, finish him, or something like that. So that way you know, like, okay, this red shot here is fucking top priority right now. and then what I think does confuse you and me just in general on the game is say you do hit that final blow while you are still in multi-ball via your portal locks or you've brought in Thor or Iron Man you then go into like a victory lapse mode of a victory lapse time essentially of that mode and there's sometimes still shots with that color then and that's where I'm like I don't know if I've actually beat this or not because you can't collect the gem until you drain back down to one ball Right, right, right. So that's what fucking throws you off. It needs to, like, there needs to be a call out, a light show of something telling you, like, this son of a bitch is dead. You killed him. And I think now that you're talking about it, like, I think the comment that I made on our Discord was that, you know, like, I really like Keith Elwin's games. I think the flow, the geometry of the play field is amazing. There's just not enough fanfare. Like, it's, his games need more emotion. like call outs like Tommy was saying I want to get pumped by the call outs I want the gamma ray I can never hit that thing I don't know what it is about that left orbit but you'll hit it fine if it's not lit for gamma ray but when it's hit for gamma ray I choke on that shot all the time like that's a really cool like that's a really cool effect like it like builds tension but I think that that's one of the things like I think that's one of the things that Keith's games are missing and I feel like I've I've played a lot of Keith Elwin pinball and I I yeah I think you probably play his games more than I don't know about that but oh I played a lot of I played a lot of his games and and like I said like I think the geometry is amazing um I think the I think the rules in general like I will figure out Avengers like right now it's like I have a lot of there's a lot of confusion as far as when you have a gem and like how you move it around and like the best way to use it like that's really confusing to me and it's it's confusing it's confusing and it's not intuitive to me as to what you're supposed to like what they're doing but yeah I think the big thing I think it just needs more fanfare I think like when you collect like when you earn a gem and it like so you earn a gem you collect it on the right ramp and it drops it down to the left flipper like the upper left flipper like and then it kind of and then it just kind of releases it back into play. You know, it's like, dude, I just collected a gem. Like that seems like it should be like a nice, like, I don't know. It just seems like there should be more to it. Like a really good call out. Like I want like big, loud call outs. I make me feel like I'm earning stuff, you know, or like that idea of like final blow, you know, like direct the player with call outs. So another thing I noticed yesterday, because Tommy – because I think after we talked about recording, I started – I, like, played a couple games to really think about, like, what I want to say about the game. And the other thing – another thing that I would like to see them do is what I found, the timing of the information they give you on the screen and then when the ball goes back into play seems kind of off. Like, it will – and I'm thinking about this, like, from, like, if you're stepping up to this game on location and you step up and you start a quest and it gives you, like, it gives you information as to what you're supposed to do, but it already puts the ball into play before it does that. Like, they need to figure that out. Like, you need to give the player information like that while you have the ball stalled. You know what I mean?
    46:46
    Like, it's just like. You started Space Jam. You need to shoot these shots. Yeah, like, make it really, like, do a call out where it's like Space Jam. Yeah, like, what is Space Jam? Is that like the. Purple. It's center ramp. Center ramp, right ramp. Right orbit, left orbit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, like, I was playing that today, and I got totally confused because I thought I was in a multi-ball, and I was just crushing it. Like, I was just making all these shots, and then I came out of the multi-ball, and I hadn't, like, done any damage to the villain. You hadn't hit the left orbit. I hadn't hit the left orbit. I literally played a game earlier today and same thing because in multi-ball, that left orbit shot, like, you really have to aim at. In a multi-ball, it's almost impossible. It's so tough, yeah, which is cool. And another thing that I love about Avengers is that even though the back ramps are relatively clean shots, like, they're not terribly hard to make, they're not terribly easy. Like, I think, like – No, the steepness adds the difficulty. Yeah. Like, they're wide enough that you're not going to not hit the shot, but do you hit it accurately enough with enough strength to actually, like, complete the shot is two different things. And I think, like, Jurassic Park and Iron Maiden, I think that those ramps are really easy to make if you hit them. You know what I mean? Like, they're just, like, Jurassic Park, like, I will make that ramp shot on Jurassic Park, the left ramp, sometimes where I'm like, I don't even know how it made it up there. Like, it just didn't seem like there was enough velocity to get the ball up the ramp. And all of a sudden, it's coming back. I'm like, all right. It does seem like it crawls up that ramp in a unique way. Right, right. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. It's like defying gravity. So I like the fact, even the Marvel ramp, like I can hit the Marvel ramp, but I really like the fact like because it's a relatively sparse play field, but it's like those ramp shots are just like so satisfying because they're just not, they're not gimmies, you know. I think Keith does a really good job, specifically on Avengers, but kind of in general of using vertical space. Yeah. because, I mean, Jurassic Park, you have your two, whatever you want to call them, but the tower ramp and the helipad, like, they're like turnaround ramps. The ball goes up and turns around back at you. And Avengers, you have your tower, you have Marvel, you have the gem ramp, whatever it is, the fat boy one. Like, his stuff seems to send the ball upward, and it creates more space and more shots, it feels like, on the play field than that are actually there. so you can have a game that looks sparse, but meanwhile your ball, like I feel like my ball travels more around an Avengers play field than it will on most pinball machines.
    49:28
    Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing for Avengers for me is I still haven't found the points, but I'm starting to find the combos. And like I said, the ability to do endless combos is just so satisfying. Like, so what I think is going to be like, I'm just going off of what I know of you and how much you play games. I think you will figure out more and more without watching the videos. I cheated. Raymond Davidson put out the videos that I've sent you multiple times that you refuse to watch that explain gems. Yeah. And they're each videos like I think 10 to 15 minutes and each one explains two gems. But that made me understand so much more of what I was doing. but like you were saying it also opens the door to a ton of strategy on where you place the gems and i don't think anyone has discovered like one secret route yet of like this is the optimal placement because if you are a person who is really good at hitting certain shots you're going to want to put a certain gem there that sort of thing um and the fact that like your soul gem collects the percentage of value of the mode so you still want to be playing the mode with two or three ball multi-ball going for the gemstones to increase the scoring there because then your soul gem shot is worth more like there's a ton of strategy that will make this game i think have a very long replay factor a replayability in a collection because of all the strategy and the different approaches you can take to it with manipulating the gems on which gems do you collect even because i've only had one game where i collected all the gems um i've gotten four or a few times, but I mean, most games, you're only getting a couple gems, like, just realistically. Like, they're not easy modes to beat.
    51:17
    It seems very, like, it seems that the gems are the main goal, or is the main goal to collect the Avengers, in your opinion?
    51:30
    That's what I think makes Keith's games so great. Like, on Maiden, you're always building towards Cyborg, because everything you shoot is collecting and building something. Which is like the Avengers, right? So it's like you're collecting your character gems. It's everything you're shooting, you're still collecting and building towards something. And that's why I think his games end up so balanced. As in, like, whatever you shoot, you are building towards something in the game. It's just like Jurassic Park. Honestly, like... I mean, like... Yeah, he does just... It's the brain of a world champion competitive pinball player putting together a rule set that is going to make, I think, himself interested. I will say I think there is a lot to, you know, and again, it depends on what you're trying to get to in the game. Are you trying to get to the wizard mode or are you just trying to put up a huge score? But to me, getting time gem and reality gem have become my priorities. I put time gem on the center ramp. I put reality on the Captain Marvel shot. And then after that, I'm starting multi-balls and I'm beating the shit out of the drop targets to try to get super modes going. But so if you put a gem, like you put the time gem on the center ramp, that extends your mode times, right? So like is it – Well, every time I shoot that ramp, I'm adding three or five seconds or whatever it is to my time bank. And it shows that up at the top of the screen. Yes. So, again, that's really hard to know without – like if Raymond had not explained that in a video, I would not have picked that up very quickly. Because when you shoot it, it doesn't say five seconds added or anything like that. It shows it at the top. You have to look at it. So on the Mind Gem, the Mind Gem is the one where you can use the action button to choose a shot, right? Yes. So one of the things I don't understand about that is, so on the screen, it shows, like, it has a count. Like, it'll show, like, in that gem, it'll show three, right? Mm-hmm. That's how many presses you have? That's how many. Because I have played the game where I've had, like, three shots, but there's no – it's not allowing me to use that, like, three times. Like, I don't understand. Like, if I'm in Space Jam mode, right?
    53:46
    So the Space Jam, I have no idea. Oh, in that mode. Yeah, let's go into Space Jam. Like, if I want to avoid the Captain Marvel ramp, I'll hit the button. Well, here's the – Okay. The trick is, I think the blue, right, the Mind Gem, I think, and I'm probably wrong, because, again, you have literally probably played Avengers more than me and haven't had it for a week now, two weeks. Like, I'm not joking. I haven't played it that much.
    54:10
    But I think you are only spotted the shot where the blue light is. What? So I think you would have to shoot your move gems target and move the gem to another shot. Or if you have the space gem, I think the space gem allows you to move gems. So, like, there's some sort of distinction within that. That's the shit where I'm like, and then, like, when it's, there's some, like, at some point it'll ask you if you want to move your gem. Or no. That's the, if you shoot into the Ant-Man little vertical up kicker. What's the power up gem?
    54:45
    Power up? Yeah, one of the gems is, like, you power up the shot. Oh, the red one is, it powers up, it levels up your Avenger. Right. But so once you level up that Avenger, that is basically not doing anything. Like, if you completely, like, do full power. It keeps them at that level. But then you want to move it. That's the advantage.
    55:07
    It keeps them at that level throughout the rest of the game because those reset every ball. As long as that gem's there, yeah. So when you drain, they would still be on level two. So, like, say you put that on Black Panther, which is also your combo jackpot collection shot, and he's at level two, it multiplies that value. Oh, okay. So, like, yeah, like, that's something, there's a ton of depth into how you use and manipulate the gems, which is, to me, I can already tell you, I'm never going to learn all of that. Like, that's not the way my brain approaches pinball. But I think it's really cool that it's there for those players that do, like, if you saw the Carl DeAngelo thing where he completes the whole gem in, like, two flips, it's because he figured out what gems to collect, where to place them all before he starts this whole gem mode. What? Two flips.
    55:55
    There's a video tutorial out there of how he does it. It's amazing. Yeah. But it's all because he intentionally, and that's the other thing that I think is really cool on Avengers, is based on what you're going for, Keith designed a rule set that makes you want to avoid shots. Like, I am intentionally trying not to spin my discs sometimes. Yeah, yes. Right? Because I don't want to go into a gem mode before I build up my combo. Right, you've got to make me shoot these combo shots but not hit my discs. If I have two locks, I don't want to start my Iron Man multiball before I start my Gem Quest. Like, I think it's very unique the way he's designed these rules where, like, oh, yeah, you want to shoot everything, but not all the time. Like, I want to shoot these things here, there, and now, you know, but not at this moment.
    56:40
    Again, I think, you know, we're fanboys of Keith. Let's just be honest about it. And we overlook if there are flaws. I haven't found them, but I'd say Avengers is still the least popular of his games that he's released from a general consensus standpoint. But I think it's going to continue to gain popularity over time. I think it's his most popular current theme as far as that goes. But I just don't think it's gotten quite the reception that Jurassic Park and Iron Maiden did immediately. But I think in the long run, it's going to be the highest regarded game. I think the comboing in that game is really, really good.
    57:23
    Oh, yeah, the layout's just amazing. Yeah, the layout's amazing. Absolutely. And the shots. And the fact that the combos are so important to getting you rewards. Yeah. Oh, yeah, so satisfying. And hit it, yeah, like what, but it is, I mean, the geometry on it is tough because that upper flipper, like to hit that return ramp, I guess, is that the Hawkeye ramp? Because there's a Hawkeye target and then a Hawkeye ramp, I guess. like I had a game where I I was like I was on that thing like I was just nailing it every time and it's so satisfying wait have you gotten to like the hard Hawkeye setting where the ball doesn't drop like with coordination of the lights oh man does that fuck with your brain oh yeah I don't even I know that's the Hawkeye yeah that the Hawkeye challenge is because you know the I need to mess around with the flippers because the delay between the lower flipper and the upper flipper is enough that it, like, totally throws me off. Like, it works if it's – if I'm playing on the fly.
    58:24
    Like, if it's coming off of a combo, like, I can hit it. But if it's coming off of the tower, like, I just – like, my timing is just total garbage.
    58:33
    But, yeah, I will study up. I will study up by playing. and then I will report back and figure out if – I mean, like, my high score right now is, like, maybe – I haven't broken 500 million.
    58:53
    Yeah, you got to put in some time studying. I know. You'll get there. All right, well, let's talk – Do you miss Ghostbusters before we get out of that? I don't – okay. Just because you don't sell stuff very often. I don't sell stuff very often, and the only reason – I mean, my daughter and I were playing Ghostbusters, busters together like during the pandemic so I was still kind of torn by selling it but that was the one that had to go um I still think like the art package on that game is might be my favorite one of my favorite art packages ever I think zombie yeti I mean just I don know he just crushed it Yeah I can argue with that So good That a great game But at the same time I wasn playing it you know to be honest I wasn't playing it, and it's like one of those things where it's just like, what game can I sell and get enough money out of it that I can pick up another game?
    59:51
    Yep, I understand the process of that. So I get it. Now the question is, there's a new game that's been announced, teased,
    60:02
    trailered, talked about, speculated about. I mean, you're going to see it on location in like two weeks. Two weeks time, Mandalorian.
    60:15
    Mandalorian. I am. Yeah. So what have you seen the show? I have watched the show. I was a fan of Mandalorian. I watched both seasons. I was excited when the second season came out. So that's my background on that. Same here. And this is, like, this is one of the first Star Wars things that I have, like, genuinely been like, oh, I really like this. Like, I've seen the Star Wars movies. I think they're okay. But, like, by no means would I be like, oh, I'm a hardcore Star Wars fan. But the Mandalorian show, like, genuinely have really enjoyed. it makes it worthwhile having Disney to me that's like one of the few things that I've watched on there not that there isn't a ton of good stuff it's just not a streaming service I use a ton but the Mandalorian sucked me into Disney Plus enough so where I started watching that new show that they just released called The Bad Batch if you like animation at all they've only had two episodes so far but it picks up right after the execution of Order 66 in the Star Wars saga but anyway yeah i i enjoy the show um now did you love did you love this show um not the way i love stranger things which i uh you know obviously when there's rumors and it genuinely was really excited to see the unveil this week because it's just been a weird fucking year so when new games get announced it feels a little extra special um especially with this one being at like again we're not out of the pandemic we realize It's not over, especially not globally, but more and more people are vaccinated. More and more things are opening back up. And it's like this feels like the first title where it is. I mean, it is. The Stern had their announcements the other day, and they had like the meeting with the Stern Army and stuff that night, which I was in on.
    62:01
    And it's going to be the first game that's going to release and have launch parties scheduled. It just found out in an email today that they're going to do launch parties with the first dates being Memorial Day weekend for Stranger Things and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because those games have not had launch parties still. They were released a year ago. Wow. So after that, there'll be Mandalorian ones. But this is like the first title that's going to release and have sort of a normal schedule. But that was one of the things I've talked about with people is I really do like The Mandalorian. I watch it. But I wouldn't say I love it. I have a Mandalorian shirt, and that's it. I got it because it was kind of a cool shirt. I watched every episode when they came out. I enjoyed it. but like with stranger things i have fucking lunchboxes and t-shirts and memorabilia and like posters and right it's shoes yes and i'm still looking for the other shoes that i didn't get when they launched on ebay and i can't find the right goddamn size and like i fucking love stranger things so that's why when that game wasn't what i had envisioned of it or what i thought it could be or it didn't include content from all three seasons which i'm still fucking pissed about because the Battle of Starcourt Mall could have been the coolest fucking wizard mode ever.
    63:15
    It's a lot of personal disappointment and not a knock-on. Obviously, it's a riff on the Attack from Mars layout, which has never been a popular layout with me, but it's a really popular game. I get why they did it, and I get why people like it.
    63:27
    With Mandalorian, I don't have that sort of passion for the series. So whatever was going to come out, I didn't have a thought in my brain. like i have sat down and thought out of what modes and shots should be in a stranger things pinball machine like i have a google document before stern ever made this on how i wanted to recode a classic layout into a stranger things pinball machine i don't have any of that with mandalorian mandalorian is like something i i veg out on i'm cool with whenever it comes out like i see the news and i'm following it it's not like stranger things where like i'm googling on a regular basis when is season four going to be on netflix yeah like you know that sort of thing so my expectations were not nearly as high for Mandalorian.
    64:08
    That being said, I think it looks pretty fucking cool. Yeah, I was coming from the same place. I think that the show was really like, especially the episodes that released during the pandemic. Did they all release during the pandemic? No. No, the first ones were like the fall before fall winter before. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like a, you know, the episodes were short. Like, it was a really fun, episodic television show, right? I mean, it was just, like, escapism at its best. I think the Star Wars theme was done well, where it's, like, you have, you know, the good guys, the bad guys, and there's, like, some kind of levity to it. You know, it's like, like, I think about, like, Chewbacca, right? Like Chewbacca is a character where it's just like he's a yeti, right? He's a Sasquatch basically. I mean he's a big teddy bear. I mean or like there's always something about the Star Wars universe that is – You know right now that there is someone listening to this that's a huge Star Wars fan that is pissed that we don't know what species Chewbacca is because I have no idea. But I know it's not yeti. He's not a yeti. But you know what I mean. Like there's a certain – Oh, I know what you mean. Like Baby Yoda, right? I get it. Like, Baby Yoda, Grogu, whatever. I mean, like, for everything that's happening in Mandalorian, like, all the seriousness of it, like, it's basically a spaghetti western happening in the Star Wars universe. You still have, like, this little fucking Muppet, right? And, Taylor, for those of us that aren't five decades old, could you explain a spaghetti western? Because I've heard that term tossed around. I'm being sincere here. Like, I've heard that term, but I don't actually know what that is. Is that like a – Spaghetti Westerns were like Clint Eastwood, like Good, the Bad, and the Ugly kind of stuff because – I can't remember the director's name. Oh, shit.
    66:04
    Oh, God. I can't believe I can't remember the director's name. So basically – I'm picturing like – was it John Wayne, the Duke, right? Like is that Spaghetti Westerns? No, no, no, no. So basically – I might be wrong about this, but I think that the Spaghetti Westerns were a series of Westerns that were filmed in Italy. And so like all the – Oh, okay, yeah. And the director was Italian, and so all the extras were – all the, like, actors or extras were Italian. So, like, you have all these people running around the Wild West who are all, like, these real Italian-looking people.
    66:37
    Okay. But that's – I get it now. That's like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood shit. Yeah, but I could be totally – I could be totally wrong, and, like, we will hear from people if – well, we probably won't. You might hear from people.
    66:49
    But that's what I always thought of. That's what I always think about. So I basically think of like Clint Eastwood. I think about like Clint Eastwood and you have, you know, this, they're very Clint Eastwood-esque Western. Like The Mandalorian is a Western taking place in outer space. Yeah, that part I kind of understood the comparison. I just wasn't sure on the exact, like, what that definition of that term was. But now I get it. It makes sense. But so there is a levity to the show, which I think helps it. and I think Jon Favreau did a really good job in just, I think he did a good job with the Star Wars world but yeah, I'm not like I'm not a fanboy of it, but I just, I like it so I felt the same way, I mean like I've kind of been out of the loop on that stuff, like I haven't, you know, I know that Mandalorian, yeah when I heard Mandalorian. I'm trying to think of when I even heard about it. It was like two weeks before it was kind of unveiled at least, basically, that that was going to be it. I was really surprised by the theme because I just didn't see it as... I was surprised by the theme, but I also saw where it would make sense.
    68:06
    It's a huge license. It's Star Wars universe. I think Star Wars, Gary Stern said it on the little press thing, Like, it's like a $65 billion license, essentially, as far as, like, what the Star Wars universe is worth. And they have a Disney World built an entire whole park of Star Wars shit. Like, it's a huge thing. And, I mean, obviously, CERN has a relationship with Disney.
    68:34
    And the art is they've done Star Wars pinball machines recently. So, like, you know, it's like. Yeah, I think that was what made it kind of shocking was the fact that the last Star Wars machine was out, what, three years ago? Yeah, but it's definitely different. I mean, I feel like it's, I don't know. Oh, very much so. It's different. I agree. To me, I call it the Mandalorian. I don't think it's like Star Wars the Mandalorian.
    69:01
    It's like its own separate thing, but realistically we know it's taking place in the Star Wars universe. um but i guess it wasn't at the top of my mind of something that was going to get converted into a pinball machine because it isn't very often that stern is like on the precipice of pop culture i would say and stranger things was i you know very that was kind of surprising when they did that because it was so recent but don't you think the part of that is like just the the new group of people they have working there i mean they have like a lot of like younger talent at that company where it's like like when leds i think that's part of it and i think the the main the mainstream sort of revival of pinball itself has helped lead to it being more relevant again and therefore getting more current and relevant themes put onto a pinball machine um i don't know if we'll ever get back to the point in the 90s, like Johnny Mnemonic era, where movies were coming out and the game was coming out, where the pinball companies were getting early access to film the assets and the content to put together the machines, which I think would be amazing. I think that could happen. I don't think we'll ever get quite back to that. I think that could happen. Really? I think that if you... I mean, I don't know why, but I just find that so cool because I think I said Johnny mnemonic specifically because i thought of the fact that george gomez has the famous quote where like he put that game together they were given the script they saw shots you know they knew what they were putting in it and then like he goes to the movie premiere and sees the movie and he's like oh fuck this movie's awful can we get out of this like that's what i think like i think that's why that's gone is because you have those moments where something does flop and then johnny mnemonic awesome pinball machine but because of that movie sucked the game flop too you know what i mean Same with The Shadow, that sort of thing. Like, those games weren't highly regarded in their time because of the movies. Yeah. I don't, yeah, I don't know. That's why I don't think we'll see that. But I just, I don't know if it's me being nostalgic for the 90s. I think you could see it. I think that if Stern continues to have a relationship with Disney, right? I mean. Yeah. Like, I mean, doesn't Disney own Toy Story? Like, who has that theme?
    71:16
    Supposedly Jersey Jack is going to be doing Toy Story. Really? the one that pops into my mind is like i know we've already had an avatar pinball machine but they're filming the avatar sequels you think they would do another avatar i i mean those movies just made so much money and with so much of those films have been been in production for a long period of time they're filming like multiple ones back to back i can see how like since they're doing two or three movies whatever it is you could somehow squeak out another Avatar with, and it's just such a, it's Disney, it's Disney owned, but it's Avatar is kind of its own thing, and it's just a massive money maker, like. I just wonder how. It's weird because that movie made so much money, and I've literally never watched it again since I saw it in theaters. I've seen it. But it made so much money. I've seen it because, I've seen it twice, I think. I watched it, like, with my wife, and then I watched it when our kids were old enough, but, yeah, I don't know. It's, yeah, I don't know. It's a weird movie. It's a weird, it's a weird movie, man. But I don't know about Avatar. Like, I don't know, like, if, like, there's a bad taste in Stern's mouth from Avatar, you know, like.
    72:25
    Which I find odd because I think Avatar is a good game, honestly. I enjoy Avatar. Yeah, I don't know. I just think it was, I don't know. It just wasn't really a bright time for pinball. Yeah, that might be it. I mean, that game might be 10 years old now.
    72:39
    Yeah, I don't know. I think that if they have a relationship with Disney to where they would – I mean, Disney would have to open up to Stern and work with them. But I think that – I mean, because the person that did the art – With Stern's history of leaks, who knows how well that's going to go. Yeah, but they did well on Mandalorian. I mean, the fact that they were able to keep that tight. I mean, the artwork. It was literally within like nothing weeks until within 24 hours of the announcement, and that was one photo of the LE that everyone saw. And they work with an artist who's a Disney artist, right? Yeah, it's Randy Martinez. I want to make sure we got his name in here and correct because he obviously wasn't used on the original release of the Star Wars pinball machine a few years ago. But then he got to do a comic version of it. um but what he i heard him basically say like he basically had to take what was already there and make it look like a comic so the the layouts are super identical you know one's just photoshop art style and one of them's hand-drawn style this one he got to like kind of design himself to go with the layout and i think it looks great like i i really like it i think all of i mean the Playfields are very similar between the models, if not identical. I'm just browsing. But the cabinets are all very different, and I think they all look great.
    74:05
    I mean, Stern's been on a pretty awesome streak of artwork. I think ever since Zombie Yeti and Dirty Donnie kind of came in, it really upped and changed how things were done for the better. Can't really complain about it at all. I think they've done well with the art. I mean, they've had some like, you know, Game of Thrones maybe was not great. But, yeah, I was a little surprised that Johnny Crap didn't get it. I actually did reach out to him. It was like when I heard the rumor of Mandalorian because he is a big Mandalorian fan. I reached out about a photo or a painting that he posted of the Mandalorian with Grogu that he had posted was still for sale on his website. And it was a little bigger than I realized and more expensive than I thought it would be because I didn't think it was that large just looking at an Instagram photo. But, yeah, it was very cool. He clearly likes and appreciates the series. Yeah, and, I mean, I really like his style. And so I was, like, I did, I asked him. It's not something I normally do, but I did ask him if he had worked on a game, and he was like, nope. like I totally could have seen him doing the same thing but I do think that the art packages are all across the board look pretty good I think the LE package is really cool the mirroring back glass I mean I want to see that in person but um yeah so I mirror back glasses are just the shit like that's just a fact it's they just they make it stand out and I do like that the LE is like again I'm not going to be buying an LE of this specifically and really if they release a James Bond that's something that I'd probably consider but for the most part I'm not going to be an LE buyer on anything but the fact that this LE looks so different from the premium and pros to where like you're not mistaking it like it is definitely different. It's over the top. If you're going to pay for those LE prices and stuff you should be getting something like that in my opinion. And I think they knocked that out of the park. It's I'm looking at the pictures right now and it's it's fucking sharp. So, I mean, so like a lot of what we can talk about is just speculation because we haven't seen like a real game played. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what you saw. If you saw exercise, we were asked not to take photos or record, which I think for the most part, people complied with. And if you didn't comply, it really didn't fucking matter because all they did was show you the videos that were already released that morning and had Gary Stern narrate them. So it was not helpful at all, in fact. I think it's – that being said, I think it's a really cool thing that Stern did it. I appreciate that they're looking into, like, new ways and new methods and adding things to game releases. That being said, I get that Gary Stern is the president of your company, and he's been around the industry forever, and he knows his shit, like, about the industry. But when you're releasing a new game, like, give us the artist, the designer, and the coder, because they have had the most hands-on time with the machines. Like, I don't care if Gary's been playing it for weeks in their test game area. Like, those are the people that have intimate knowledge about the inner workings of the game, which is what a lot of us want once the game has been officially announced. But don't you think that's kind of like what Deadflip now is when Jack does his stream of the reveal?
    77:44
    Oh, I agree. And that's next Friday, the 21st, I think they're doing that, which is, again, awesome. I love that when it's turned out to the game, you're going to see it basically within a week and be able to own it shortly thereafter if you want or most likely go play it on location somewhere. Are they doing the pro and the premium or just the pro? They're streaming the premium next week. That's what's been advertised. I wouldn't be surprised if they also have a pro there, but they've advertised that they'll be playing the premium.
    78:18
    And I agree, that's coming, like I said, very soon. But, like, if you're calling, like, I don't know. I was really excited that they were doing the Stern Army meeting because realistically, like, I'm a certain army location for my location, and there's not a ton that we get out of doing that. It's just one of those things you sign up for, and they send you some stuff here and there. Nothing too crazy, but, like, this sounded like, okay, this could be, like, the first really cool bonus perk, and I didn't think we were going to see, like, gameplay, but I thought we were going to get, like, some more details on the rules other than, like, there's five modes, and this is what they're called. Look, you can read the inserts. Yeah. I wanted to be like, there's five modes in this mode. This is what you're trying to do. you know which again we're gonna see and we're gonna get all that in due time i just thought it would have been cool if that was there coming from you know dwight is uh i don't always love dwight rule sets i've talked about this openly on the show um like i just our brains work differently i appreciate keith's uh approach to designing rules i don't always appreciate dwight's that being said i think dwight is like an awesome person i think he's incredibly passionate about pinball in general and his rule sets like the dude hearing the dude describe his rule set will get me excited about his rule set yeah me playing his rule set is not fun for me a lot of times um but like i know that that guy is probably at this point very excited because i know he's a huge star wars fan um to get to work on a second star wars game in the last couple years and mandalorian which is incredibly popular currently instead of like a 30 plus year old series of movies like i think it would have been cool to get to sit there and hear him i know they did do the stern insider podcast so maybe all this information is on there i just haven't paid my 40 a year to be an insider so i'll wait a week or whatever until they're available publicly and maybe he has done all that already but i just that's what i kind of did from the stern army meeting was something along those lines instead of them like literally just replaying the videos that we'd already i personally had watched like 10 times each side day because i'm sitting at work on my computer and right now at this point of the year i only have a couple kids left in my program so i don't have a ton to do it where so anyway uh yeah it looks cool i i just want to now that i've seen it and i'm like all right it looks awesome now what am i trying to do yeah so what i want to so we don't know 100 on like what everything what the goals and the modes are and all that like the basic yeah basic basic features of the game like you've got grogu in the upper left with the magnet you've got that's only on the premium and only only well you get the grogu doll and all the grogu statue is that the grogu doll the muppet and all models um and that's going and look i i have already sent my deposit on buying this game because i think it's going to do well on location but i think it's going to do really well because it's got a seven or eight inch tall Grogu doll in the back corner, and everyone has seen that thing. Like, it's a Star Wars marketing genius. Like, it's sold so much stuff over the last two years. So, yeah, I think that's awesome that it's in the game, and it's so big because that is going to draw people into playing it. Okay, well, it's huge. It's massive. And it doesn't really do much. It doesn't, no. It is literally there to be eye candy and have kids walk by and go, Dad, can I have a dollar to play this game?
    81:45
    What? Okay, so let's go around the play field and... Okay, what play field are you looking at? Oh, I'm not looking at a play field. I was going to go off of memory, but I'm old, so I should go. Okay, well, I have a pro play field in front of me. No, let's do the premium. Let's do the premium now that I'm a premium snob. Oh, I was going to say, now you're a premium guy. all of a sudden you get one premium and I fucking lose you to the premium world. I thought I took a, I think, wait, I think, oh, yeah, I took a still. Okay, I did take it. Well, I mean, they're basically the same, right? The layouts are pretty the same. First of all, I want to say, like, the play field art is, I think, the color scheme works really well. I just think it's, like, it's bright. I agree with that statement. It's bright, like, yeah, it's just really bright. It's eye-catching. It fits the theme.
    82:40
    You've got, I like how they use the different sort of, be it lightsaber or laser guns or force electrical magic. They make, like, these very bright colors that stand out from the palette, and they're aimed at shots, that sort of thing. Yeah. All right, so left or right? Like the left orbit, that's the one that feeds the – does that feed Grogu?
    83:10
    So, again, the designer of the game, I don't think we've mentioned it maybe at this point, is Brian Eddy. Famous for The Shadow, most recently did Stranger Things. That's his first film. Exactly, from Mars. 20-plus years.
    83:22
    Very, very accomplished designer. Yeah. What I'm picturing these orbit shots like, both the left and right, is like the shadow. It's a very far to the side, wide orbit that goes all the way around the back. Okay. And there is a up post that is back there that will pop up to divert the ball to your child rollover lanes. Okay. That are like below Grogu.
    83:45
    Is it Grogu or Gorgu? I think it's Grogu. Yeah, so do I. I think Gary Stern said the wrong name yesterday in the meeting, and it's like throwing me off. But, yeah. So, yeah, I think that orbit can go all the way around from left to right and right to left at times. And at other times, the post is going to pop up and help you spell chocolate. Okay.
    84:04
    And then you've got the Carl Weathers scoop, which starts Apollo Creed. Apollo Creed starts your – that's like your mode start shot. Yeah, that reminds me of, like, the Indiana Jones mode start shot. That's just what it reminds me of, like, location on the play field-wise. And then you've got a ramp. You've got your ramp there that feeds back to the left flipper.
    84:29
    Okay, so straight up the center, you've got that target. You've got a hanging target under, what is it, the razor crest? The razor crest or the falcon razor, if you're getting that.
    84:45
    The razor falcon crest ship target, which is. Which, as a sculpture, I think it looks really good. Yeah, I think it looks good.
    84:55
    Yeah. I'm curious on that target. I don't think that. If it is always down or if it is controlled. I think it's always down. And at some point. So you think it's always down? See, that's what I was trying. I couldn't figure it out. I think it's just. And it's just, like, pretty.
    85:14
    Go ahead. Oh, I can't hear you. I just couldn't tell because there's a ramp behind it. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taylor. All right. So there's a ramp behind it. So that's why, like, in my mind, that ramp is what starts your multi-balls. Yeah. And it's got a controlled gate on that ramp at the backside of it to hold balls. But, like, in my mind, if you're shooting a target, it's going to be hard for a ball to have enough momentum to get up a ramp, but I guess it's not a very steep ramp. And I just thought maybe at some point the target, like, you shoot it, say, three times, and on the third one, when it goes back, It stays up until you make the ramp shot or something. But I just don't know. I'm curious. So I looked at that. I looked at the video, like watching the video of the target getting hit and looking at the mechanism that's holding the target. And it does not look like there's anything that would lock it into place.
    86:06
    Yeah, see, my thought was just there's like a hold power coil inside of the razor crest or underneath it that we couldn't see. But I didn't see anything. No. I don't know, but I don't remember. When I watched the video, I didn't see anything where I was like, that's going to keep it locked up. No, I didn't see anything in the video either that would make me believe it stays up. Yeah, so I think it's just like – Oh, actually, wow, there's a really good photo of that, and I would say there's – Your mic just broke up a little bit.
    86:40
    Yeah. I'm moving up. It's like good old days, the good old days. I can hear you. Yeah, you're real staticky.
    86:55
    I don't know, man. I'm not moving. I don't know. I think your mic cord came out a little bit. I'm pushing it in. All right.
    87:06
    But so, yeah, so you had that target. And then, so this is where I get really confused. I get confused. So this is what I think. I think that this is one of the cool, a cool mechanism that they have in the game is to the right of that. It's like a return. It's like a return ramp similar to the Jurassic Park tower, but it can actually lift up and become a scoop, right?
    87:36
    No. So it is – so it can become like the tower ramp, or it's a shot where it just goes through, which is what it is on the pro. Okay, okay. Because it's completely missing on the pro. Okay. So that reminds me of like the no-good gopher's ramp. So essentially the ramp drops. It like drops a fork down, and it shoots into there, and it's like a turnaround. It turns right around and comes on the wire form back to it. Gotcha. Yeah, but that's pretty cool, though. But the fact that, like, yeah, because it's, like, basically creating a shot.
    88:08
    Yeah, exactly. And then the – That is what I agree with. Like, that, I think, is the feature that would most make me want to get the premium, actually, not the other play field thing. Because it – yeah, because it adds a ramp.
    88:23
    Yeah, it's a cool – it's a cool mech. Yeah, it's a really cool mech. I wonder what, like, yeah, I wonder, like, what happens in multiball, if it's up or down. I would assume it goes down. I don't know.
    88:40
    Yeah, there is a super jackpot insert there, which I can totally see that being the super jackpot when that, like, drops. You have to hit it to turn around and come back at you. And then, so, to the right of that is a, that's, is that the? The Ghostbusters ramp.
    88:57
    That's the Ghostbusters ramp? Oh, wait, let me look. I mean, it looks exactly like the Ghostbusters premium ramp on the right. Oh, yeah, it's like a turnaround.
    89:05
    Yep, like clear plastic, and it's a quick U-turn type ramp. And then – Exits to a wire form And then to the right of that is a ramp or is it the orbit Right orbit yeah And is that what feeds the Mandalorian helmet The left ramp does. It's got a diverter on it. Oh.
    89:27
    Yeah. So that you can definitely see if you watch like the specific model because there's like the gameplay trailer which shows you footage from both the Pro and Premium LE. and then there's like two separate videos that are a little bit longer that are just for the pro and just for the premium le and you actually see that diverter in action and it's you have to qualify what they call the encounters which you qualify by shooting the left ramp and then shooting the left ramp again it'll divert to the upper play field which on the premium le this is the the big physical difference, I'd say. The biggest physical difference is a tilting playfield in the shape of a Mandalorian helmet that contains two full-sized flippers and six stand-up targets. And on the Pro, it is just a separate playfield area that is stationary, and it has one full-sized flipper and six stand-up targets. When I look at it from, like, a operating standpoint, because that is what I'm purchasing this game for, all I see in the premium LE is maintenance on that playfield. That's literally what popped into my head.
    90:40
    Now, that being said, Stern is really good about their games. That doesn't mean they're perfect. That doesn't mean they don't need adjustments or have issues. But in general, their games are, I'd say, more reliable than anybody else's. That being said, the Pro will obviously not have maintenance issues there that the premium LE have because it doesn't have those parts. I mean, I think about the mechanisms that drive that play field, and it could be really simple because you're basically looking at like a lift ramp, right?
    91:09
    Yep. I mean, just from what you can even see in the video, it's got essentially what looked like a white plastic post on some sort of a servo motor at the front that is tilting. Tilting up, yeah, and it lowers. Yeah, so it's nothing crazy, but it's just something else that can potentially fail that I don't want to have to deal with. So, okay. So that's the playfield layout.
    91:32
    Your initial reaction is what? Like what, what? Yeah. My initial reaction is I think skewed by how much I like the art because I really like the art. But I think it looks like it's got the potential to be very fun to shoot. Yeah. It looks fun to me. That being said, I showed it to Alyssa last night. Yeah. and it was really entertaining because like she really likes the star wars and she's only like okay with the mandalorian she actually doesn't like it as much as a lot of the other star wars stuff which i found interesting but she looked at the layout and she goes it just looks basic like there's some ramps and stuff and like she really likes the shadow that's one of her favorite that's like her favorite game honestly and i was like really that's it like she's like yeah like there doesn't look like there's anything special about the ramps and I was like okay and I was like what about like the hanging target that's in the middle and she's like it's just the target still and I was like okay so she like crushed my excitement a little bit last night but I use her as a gauge of like what your casual person walking through a bar is gonna say when they see a machine so I was like damn maybe this isn't as cool as I thought it was I don't know I mean my initial reaction was just that and I just bought an Avengers. Yeah. It was like this game looks packed. I thought it looked like there's a ton of stuff. Yeah like looking at Avengers and looking at this like I think Avengers looks like there's nothing there. like there's this game just looks packed with shit i mean half the playfield is shit it's like i think that's because the ramps come so far down on the playfield where all the avenger stuff is at the back of the playfield yeah but there's just so much stuff i mean think about avengers there's not like a bunch of toys and shit all over the playfield it's just like shots like this is like stuffed with stuff.
    93:41
    See, that's where I agree. I still think it looks packed. But when I started looking at it closely, like, specifically, the Grogu doll and that back left area, again, I think the doll is a good thing to put in there. I think it's awesome. It's big. It's going to grab people's attention. But what caught my eye is, like, that entire area below him is essentially useless. It's five rollover lanes. I don't disagree. Whereas on Avengers, you have a vertical ramp in the tower. You have a shot through the pops there. You have an up post. You have a spinning disc that on certain models lifts into a subway. That to me, like that area specifically, if you compare that back left corner on Avengers and The Mandalorian, like on The Mandalorian, I see a lot of wasted space. I don't disagree. I agree. I'm talking about your initial reaction when you saw the play field, though, was like, damn, it's packed. Oh, yeah. This is going to be fun. I want to play this. So, yes. So I'm right there with you. Like, I do agree. Like, once you start looking at it and you start, like, breaking it down, like, there's a lot of stuff to look at. Right. But what exactly? It's more visually impressive than it is physically impressive. Which isn't bad. It's just. No. So, like, if I count it right now from left to right,
    95:05
    that's probably very similar. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Avengers has, like, nine with the captive ball and the vertical up kicker. Your mic broke up a little bit. So how many – I think it's just the internet connection. It might be the internet connection. But how many shots do you think that there are on Mandalorian? That's just the part that cut out. Seven. Seven shots on Mandalorian. You think there's nine on Avengers.
    95:40
    But that's counting the captive ball. That's still a shot. I mean, that's still a shot. Yeah, I agree. And the premium model has the vertical upticker. The pros, that's just the stand-up target. But again, it's a shot. And I'm ignoring the stand-ups on the sides of Mandalorian as well as the drop targets on Avengers. Yeah. But I'm talking like, you know, kind of main shots. I just feel like Avengers packs in two more shots in my mind. So, I mean, I'm right there with you. And that's not counting your upper flipper shots. My initial reaction on Mandalorian was that it looked really packed. And then like starting to like dig into it a little bit. Now, I will say, like, I think it looks really cool. I mean, and this is just, like, from a player's perspective because I play my games a lot. Like, the things that – so the overhead is really interesting because the overhead, like, and then watching the video, especially of Grogu interaction with the ball because that seems like a pretty important feature. and then looking at it from like the video when you're looking at it where it's more like from a player's perspective. Like I don't even see that you're going to actually see the interaction with the magnet that much with Grogu.
    97:04
    Yeah, I made the comment yesterday that that looks like the most useless magnet in the history of pinball to me. Yeah, it's just completely like because there's a bunch of shit in front of it. I mean, that's the thing is, like, there's a lot of stuff on this game, but there's so much stuff on this game, it almost seems like almost half of the play field looks like it's got stuff all over it, which there's nothing wrong with that. Like, it looks packed, and I'm not saying the game doesn't have value. I'm just thinking like being able to like follow the ball like being able to like clearly follow the ball around the play field is one of the things that I do love about Keith Elwin's designs like I think about like I think Elwin's designs a lot of times it's almost like you took like the geometry of a classic game and just like put some ramps in there in like really like great spots right where it's like you continue the flow of a classic game. And that's something that is just different, right? You know what I mean?
    98:13
    Yeah, and, you know, I don't know if it's fair to compare them. I will say I think the ramps on this game look cool and fun to shoot. I think the game looks really cool. I'm not trying to compare it. I'm just thinking, like, I'm thinking about, like, what I've been playing. As far as the use of space, that back left corner to me just seems really sparse. Yeah. As far as, like, functionality for the ball. Rollover lanes, to me, are already kind of lame. Like, Elwin doesn't have those in any of his games, does he? I'm thinking about it right now.
    98:44
    No. Like, right? It's a very traditional thing to see in a pinball machine. I understand that. But to me, like, it doesn't involve a lot of interactivity from the player. Like, at most, you're lane changing, right?
    99:00
    Not that exciting. And then to have five lanes, essentially, on this game, whereas, like, most games only have three, maybe two. Like, five just seems like a ton of rollover lanes to me, to spell out child. Oh, dude. You know what game makes me think of Jungle Lord? Like, when you get into the Bagatelle in Jungle Lord, and you're like, oh, my God. Like, there's so much, like, I have to hit that one freaking shot, and it's impossible. I have no control over this at all, you know? Yeah, that seems odd to me. Now, granted, there's going to be lane change here, I'm sure.
    99:34
    But in my mind, so, like, I see that magnet there, and I see the video, and it's making the ball move around the child lanes. And it just confuses me because, like, Ryan Eddy has, like, a really good history with magnets. Like, the Sanctum magnet is freaking amazing. The Stranger Things Premium LE magnet on the backboard catching the balls for a lock is pretty amazing yeah and then this one is just like hey we have a randomizing magnet in the back of the play field so it's never gonna like make you drain which i do appreciate because those are the worst when magnets use that but so not like i mean let's be realistic star wars is largely revolves around the force grogu in the series is demonstrating some force powers i understand how a magnet can seem like magic like the force and would make use like a good use in a Mandalorian or Star Wars themed pinball machine. And instead it's just like a randomizing magnet at the back of the play field that's helping you spell some rollover lanes. Like, I just, I don't understand it. It's almost like we had some money left in the budget. What should we do with it? I'll throw a magnet here. Yeah, I just don't see, yeah, I just. But again, yeah, I don't know. that that to me is is the weirdest design choice in the machine those those excessive roll over lanes and then the placement of the magnet on certain models all right what about the uh what do you how do you feel about the mini playfield because that seems to be something that people are very passionate about like a lot of a lot of comments about the mini playfield i've largely not read a ton of pinside so like i was looking forward to pinside for the last couple weeks knowing stern's getting close to a release hoping there'd be some sort of a leak because like reality is you're i'm excited for new pinball machines like that uh oh the waterfall i've missed it there it is hold on everybody i i got it i feel relaxed good good good good uh by the way we're like at like two hours and you only wanted to do an hour i'm sorry this happens with us i missed you um so uh anyway i i think it's cool that it's uniquely shaped when the first picture leaked and people were trying to figure it out and you know we only saw the le initially that night my thought was it was maybe almost like the congo mini play field um and this was before i'd seen video and stuff but that's kind of how i was picturing it because like in the picture that leaked you could tell it was on an angle so my mind was like maybe there's a captive ball in there like on congo and you know whenever you qualify it you are then playing this play field and it's got a plastic cover over it, and it's vertical on the play field, and you're playing like a vertical minigame. That was what I thought it might be. And then to see that it moves is cool. Like Jersey Jack just did Pirates that had a moving play field. So it's not like it's revolutionary, but it's unique. It's not something that's on a ton of machines.
    102:31
    It seems like such a small play field to have two full-size flippers on it, kind of like Game of Thrones felt to me.
    102:39
    It's a very small area to have two flippers. The pro area, I kind of like how that is shaped a little better with only the one flipper and, like, a rubber for nudging. And the only thing I can think of that it reminds me of that we've kind of seen that I can compare as far as, like, gameplay would feel is, I don't know if you've actually ever seen or played an Aerosmith LE or Premium that has that upper play field. I have. I have played one. I thought that upper play field on Aerosmith was incredibly fun. For as simple as it was, I'm like, this is stupid. It's one flipper and a couple stand-up targets, which is what this looks like. I really enjoyed it. A big part of what made me enjoy it was you're not up there very often, and when you are up there, you're not up there for very long. Yeah. With this Mandalorian, and who knows how the rules are going to work on it, so maybe it'll be challenging or whatever, but on the premium in L.E. with those two full-size flippers,
    103:36
    there's barely any space for the ball to drain, it looks like. Did you watch the video of that? The video of that upper play field makes it look like just a fucking flail fest. Yeah, exactly. And to be fair, that's what Congo's lower play field is. Yeah, but. Like you're spelling the word Congo and stand-up targets, and it gets harder each time because the targets stay. You have to lay all the targets. They stay lit for less time once you've hit them once, and it gets a shorter amount of time to complete it. So that's all I can picture is that sort of rule set on this because the reality is it's just stand-up target. It's like there's only so much you can do with the rules. But in Congo, what's the value of playing the lower play field? Like what does it actually give you? The first time it awards you 20 diamonds, I think is what it is. The second time it awards you the gray multiball, which is a multiball, but it actually halves the value of your jackpots versus the traditional multi-ball. And then after that, I think it's diamonds again. And, like, it's back and forth between, like, wards. Mine's on tournament mode, so it's always the same pattern. So that's what I'm going off of. But so the helmet, though, the helmet on Mandalorian, that appears to be, like, your main multi-ball, right?
    104:53
    No. You don't think? Okay. No. Your main multi-ball is coming from the Razorcrest. Okay. The helmet is what they're calling encounters, which, based on their titles, seem to be from when fight scenes are broken out in the show. Oh, okay. So my guess is the targets kind of symbolize the enemies, and you're shooting the enemies the way they would have in the episode. Oh, okay. Because that's what I'm picturing. So I think they're meant to be brief. It's a firefight. It's a brief battle. I don't think you're supposed to be on that play field for extended periods. So I was looking at the one, two, three as like those were locks.
    105:33
    No, I think those are levels of the battle. Oh, okay. Or of the encounter. Well, I mean, okay, because when I watched it, okay, that makes sense. Because when I was watching the video, I was like, what is, this just does not. No, your main multi-balls all involve that shot up the middle through the Razor Crest target. Oh, really? Which I think is good for your casual players. Okay. Like, for people walking up, they're going to see this target that is literally right in the middle of the play field and is clearly attached to the ship from the show, and shooting at it is going to be easy because it's in the middle, and it's going to start you a multi-ball, which, realistically, that is what new players and casual players want. They want to get the multi-ball going. So I think the encounters are much more of, like, a single ball on that play field area, and you're trying to win, like, little encounters from the show.
    106:27
    And I can't remember. I think they have them listed on This Week in Pinball. I'll see if they have the names of them, but they're recognizable battles from the show. All right, so you have one on order.
    106:45
    I am waiting for Godzilla. Yeah, if this was just for me at home, I don't think I would just order a Mandalorian. I would want to play it. Again, it looks cool. It looks super cool.
    107:00
    Yeah, I wouldn't be like, oh, I have to have this right away. But for location, when it's been a relatively – my location is different. Like, Indiana, we've been allowed to be open, and I've done quite a bit since I actually had more free time this year as far as changing up games and adding and taking away stuff. But, like, when something new like this comes out, like, I have a lot of players at my location that are big Star Wars fans. Like multiple players in my league have Star Wars tattoos. Not joking. So like this makes sense for me to get. Absolutely. For that reason alone. And yeah. But if it was, again, just for me and my home, yeah, I wouldn't be as in a big of a rush. And with the persistent rumors of Keith Elwin on a Godzilla game, yeah, that's absolutely in the back of my mind too. It's like, well, if I'm getting this now, am I going to sell it in six months when that gets announced? Or am I selling something else? and that'll depend, like, if this game's doing really well on location for me, like, I would obviously keep it. But if it's not, like, then, okay, so who wants a Mandalorian? Here you go.
    108:02
    But I want to give it a chance. And, again, Shadow is one of my favorite games ever. Like, I love that. I really enjoy Medieval Madness, which I think you really enjoy. You really enjoy Attack from Mars. I don't. But, you know, two out of three is not bad for what I really like from Brian Eddy. and again, I don't think Stranger Things is as bad as I make it out to be.
    108:24
    It's just I, again, had a lot of passion for that series and it wasn't what I expected. And it's a lot like Attack from Mars. Fair enough, man. Fair enough. Well, look, we will watch Deadflip stream this next week. You will watch. I will be at work because it's on a Friday night and I work on Friday night. All right, well, look. But I look forward to seeing it whenever I get off. Well, how about this? We will watch the stream. We will watch the dead flip stream, and then we will record again, and we will discuss then what we think about what we see. I like that, mostly because that was you just already committing to talking to me again. I'm committed to talking to you again. I'm ready to get back to some normalcy, which includes talking to you. Yeah, isn't that weird that it's been our normalcy? The whole last nine months felt off for my life because of you. Way to go. Oh, man. I'm just kidding. No, I totally get it. Anytime you want to step away or if I want to step away, I think we'll do that. Yeah. It's not that we don't like doing this. We obviously do. But we're just busy people, and we have some other stuff going on in our life sometimes. Yeah. And when we record and you guys listen and give us feedback or interact with us, I genuinely like it and appreciate it. But it's also not the top thing in my life. And if you ever want to reach out and just message us, like we've become friends with a lot of people who listen to the show over the years. And like, I appreciate my friendships from the show. We've talked about that before more than anything that we've gotten from doing this show.
    109:58
    That's what's been so cool about it. But yeah, man, I feel like it just feels good to talk to you and share our opinions and banter back and forth. And I didn't even make fun of you for being old, like at all in this episode, because I'm so excited to have you. I feel like you did make fun of me being old, like early on in the episode. Maybe that didn't get recorded. I said, like, not all of us have been around for five decades. Not yet. That was just, like, a statement of fact. Not yet. Look, I'm not going to comment on your hair or your, like. Oh, dude.
    110:31
    I, look, literally last night getting ready for bed, Alyssa was like, so, like. What's going on with the hair? Can we talk about something? And I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know what's coming. I'm like, am I getting dumped? I don't know. We've been talking about potentially trying to have kids. She's like, no, I can't do that with you. She got to, like, cancel that, you know. And then she's like, how long are you going to go before you cut your hair? And I was like, oh, I don't know.
    110:55
    Oh, man. I got two weeks of school left. I'm out in two weeks. I'll think about it at that point. But for the rest of the school year, I've got to at least keep the hair. No, man.
    111:03
    Yeah, I think now, like, I mean, I will say, like, being fully vaccinated and having a lot of my friends who've, like, fully vaccinated and, like, getting together and playing pinball with people, that makes me want to talk about pinball. Like, that makes me excited about pinball. Like, being in my basement playing pinball by myself is not – it's like that's a cool escape, but it's not something I want to talk about. See, this is what I picture is, like, you go play pinball with your friends and you have, like, your ball. And, like, you're kind of an intense dude. I don't know if you know that about yourself. What? No. But, like, you're ham-fisted. Like, I can see you, you know, occasionally being really happy, but occasionally being, like, pissed off about a ball. But then you have to step away and let, like, other players take their turns. So you have, like, your cool-down period. But when you're in your basement cranking out a couple hundred games every week with no cool-down time in between balls, like, I can see, like, pinball, like, getting to you. My. Just putting you on edge. I have carpal tunnel syndrome right now, and it's from playing. From pinball. It's from playing pinball. Yeah. But. I believe it. But I will say. Yeah. But I will say this, like my favorite thing about hanging out with people and playing pinball is when I'm not playing. Like that is straight up like when you have your friends over and like you're having some beers and you are playing and your friend is blowing up a game, like that is the best. And that's what I miss. Like, I miss those, like, moments where you're like, you know, you get to sit back and you're like, oh, hell yeah. Like, dude, you just crushed it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I don't know.
    112:46
    Well, I'm for one definitely glad to have you back here recording and glad that you just seem to feel better at this point being vaccinated and seeing humans again. Oh, man. I have been seeing humans for most of this time outside of that first, like, eight weeks. And I'm ready for summer vacation and not seeing humans again. So I've got two weeks until I head to the lake. And I'm spending, like, I think 10 days up there right after school gets out. I've already taken off a weekend from the bar. And I'm looking forward to getting away from people and working on some pinball restoration and stuff. So, Taylor, awesome to have you back, man. Glad we got to talk about a new game. That's exciting. and like you said, we'll watch the stream here in 9, 10 days, whatever it is and we'll talk about that whenever we have time. Alright Tommy, it was good to talk to you man and we will talk soon.
    113:34
    Sounds good. Later. Bye. I don't know what you meant When you got to dance I can't imagine if you lost Read the gentleman Daring to be smart I know my state Anger Coffee See Swing Black coffee Swing Black coffee Swing
    114:52
    I'm Arnold Paladin, and I stand through the walls My dream is giant, now I don't stand no chance I'm feeling small, anger, and coffee, feeding me.
    115:58
    This is my time. Thank you. Say it, say it, say it, say it, say it. And the great old man, he did a fine work in the city. Why should I be so stupid when I can't even see? I turned the light on, he took me away at me.
    117:46
    And the great old man, he did a fine work in the city.