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Ep 36: Pecker

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 28m·analyzed·Jun 17, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Final Round Ep 36: Robert Byers guest appearance, Pin Clash 2 analysis, rule complexity debate, and pandemic tournament logistics.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 36 features a chaotic guest appearance by Robert Byers (Top Rope Pinball) who departs early after a disappointing Pin Clash 2 showing, followed by extended discussion with Ryan C about Pin Clash 2 production, Pinklash tournament insights, rule complexity in modern games like Avengers Infinity Quest, Australian lockdown and vaccination updates, IFPA tournament reopening logistics, and the challenge of learning new game rules for competitive play post-pandemic.

Key Claims

  • Pin Clash 2 production was significantly better than Pin Clash 1 due to Carl D'Angelo learning from previous mistakes and anticipating problems

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis praising Carl's production work, noting smooth execution and proper timing/buffer zones

  • Zach McCarthy won Pin Clash 2 (played on Pinklash), defeating Escher Lefkoff in a Colorado vs. Colorado matchup

    high confidence · Direct statement by hosts; corroborated by mention of Zach wearing Comet shirt and playing masked due to lockdown restrictions

  • Avengers Infinity Quest has surprisingly deep and complex rule layers that even experienced community figures didn't fully understand

    high confidence · Multiple hosts noting Stephen Bowden didn't know certain rules during Pinklash; Ryan C expressing rule fatigue despite game quality

  • Australian lockdown restrictions prevent IFPA tournaments from running because standing in venues is prohibited, though they allow gatherings of 10+ outdoors

    high confidence · Ryan C explaining state-level lockdown rules affecting tournament organization

  • IFPA reopened competitive pinball in August 2021 after extended pandemic closure, but has no official vaccination mandate policy for tournaments

    high confidence · Marty noting IFPA reopening announcement and lack of official vaccination stance; Jeff describing tournament organizer pressure to manage health/safety decisions independently

  • Ontario-area league organizers are not rushing to restart tournaments until October 2021 when vaccine rollout is more complete, despite IFPA reopening

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis stating he reached out to seven leagues within two-hour radius; all delayed restarts to mid-October timeframe

  • New players joined competitive pinball during lockdown/pandemic, but some original competitive players have dropped out

    medium confidence · Ryan C noting 10-15% player attrition and new entrants replacing them; uncertainty whether departures due to lost interest or vaccine/virus concerns

Notable Quotes

  • “You can't spell the word Byers without B-Y-E, which he got in Pin Clash round one, lost. He got one in Pin Clash 2, lost immediately.”

    Jeff Teolis @ early segment — Humorous takedown of Robert Byers' quick eliminations from Pin Clash competitions, establishing the show's comedic tone

  • “I'm up to 15 people watching my drunk-ass stream right now with you guys online. So, I mean, your sponsorship and your endorsements are golden for me.”

    Robert Byers @ early segment — Self-aware joke about his streaming visibility; shows willingness to self-deprecate despite being inebriated

  • “I'm glad I kind of learned the nuances of the rules to games like Metallica... But there are so many games coming out that, and when you kind of play competitive pinball, I just can't do it.”

    Ryan C @ mid-episode — Expresses rule fatigue and the unsustainable burden of learning new complex rulesets; central to the episode's discussion of modern game design complexity

  • “What I was really surprised about is that I thought I knew a lot about Avengers Infinity Quest rules by now. There's a whole layer of stuff that I just had no idea existed.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Pinklash discussion — Underscores the exceptional rule depth of Avengers despite expert-level play in tournament context

  • “You just wouldn't know it when you watch him... I probably recommend to him just ease off on it just a little bit and see how much further you go.”

    Marty Robbins (about Robert Byers) @ post-Robert segment — Acknowledges Robert has skill but alcohol impairment affects performance; shows community mentor perspective

  • “The one that we went through now was just two weeks, but it felt like months for me. But because we eliminated the virus to a certain degree, people have been pretty relaxed about getting vaccinated...”

    Ryan C @ Australian lockdown discussion — Explains the psychological toll of lockdowns and paradox of vaccine hesitancy due to effective early virus elimination in Australia

  • “Every single league, not one of them was in a rush to start up again... I think the feeling for a lot of the people I've talked to is probably mid-October...”

Entities

Robert ByerspersonJeff TeolispersonRyan CpersonMarty RobbinspersonZach McCarthypersonEscher LefkoffpersonCarl D'Angeloperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Pin Clash 2 production quality significantly improved over Pin Clash 1 through iterative learning by organizer Carl D'Angelo; smooth execution with proper timing, buffer zones, and problem anticipation

    high · Jeff Teolis: 'I can't say enough about what Carl has done... this was just smooth, smooth, smooth'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Zach McCarthy from Colorado won Pin Clash 2, defeating fellow Colorado player Escher Lefkoff; wore Comet shirt and competed masked during Pinklash event

    high · Multiple host confirmations of Zach's victory and Colorado dominance

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Avengers Infinity Quest revealed exceptional rule depth during Pinklash tournament; experienced community figure Stephen Bowden discovered gaps in his own rule knowledge

    high · Jeff: 'I thought I knew a lot... There's a whole layer of stuff that I just had no idea existed... That's just how many freaking rules are in that game'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Experienced competitive player Ryan C expressing rule fatigue and refusal to read rulebooks; concern that new games like Mandalorian may be similarly rule-heavy and alienating

    high · Ryan C: 'I'm at that point in my pinball journey where I don't want to... I kind of refuse to do it... It's like a stubbornness thing now'

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: IFPA has no official vaccination mandate policy for tournaments despite reopening competitive pinball; places health/safety decision burden on individual tournament organizers

    high · Jeff: 'I asked the IFPA, is there going to be an official stance?... there isn't... it's kind of like a funny situation to put a tournament director in'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.267

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:59
We picked Robert Byers. He is a reach-around winner from Top Rope Pinball. He got a buy in the first pin clash. He got a buy in this pin clash. So we said, you know what? For as long as he's playing in pin clash two, we'll let him come on final round. And he joins us right now. And he may have had a few to drink. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm totally sober right now. I can't even compare to the Martin Robbins drinking streams. I mean, let's be honest. Robert, a question comes to mind. Were you drunk when you were playing in pin clash? I saw some of your shots. Here's the thing. I guarantee you that if we have a Pin Class 3.0 and everybody has to have four to five shots before they start streaming, I will dominate that competition for sure. My money's on Marty.
1:45
Marty, you can't even hold a candle to my flamethrower, bruh. Seriously. So how did you go in Pin Class? were you happy with your showing today i was happy with my showing i'm i faced this guy named david raymanson and i think he's pretty good and you know i was toe to toe and you know three more spins three more spins and i blow him out of the water so i can face escher lefkoff in the next round and get my ass handed to me that guy is next level so i mean the positive spin on this is robert you got a silver for that match uh you know i guess that's kind of good somebody's made a career out of coming in second so i guess that works for some people i i mean if i was at josh sharp's level i would be very happy with my ranking right now i got people following me and redeeming stuff all over the place because i'm live streaming right now and i probably should be sleeping. You know, Marty, you can't spell the word Byers without B-Y-E, which he got in Pin Clash round one, lost. He got one in Pin Clash 2, lost immediately. And because right now we've talked to him longer than he actually played Pin Clash, we also have to say bye to Robert Byers. See you, Robert. That's brutal. That's brutal. Like I say, in all honesty, Jeff, I love you, but fuck off.

Ryan C got fatigued by complex rule sets and refuses to read rulebooks; Mandalorian may have same issue as Avengers for him

high confidence · Ryan C directly stating stubbornness about learning rules without instruction; mentioned buying Mandalorian blindly with concerns it will be similarly rule-heavy

  • LE (Limited Edition) games sell out quickly and retain secondary market value, enabling resale profits of $3,000+

    medium confidence · Jeff joking about buying LE games knowing he can flip them; mentions $3,000 markup potential without needing to play the game

  • Brisbane Masters tournament missed IFPA cutoff by 3-4 days and is experimenting with non-IFPA tournament formats

    medium confidence · Ryan C stating 'I might be wrong, don't quote me on this' regarding Brisbane timing and experimental formats

    • Jeff Teolis @ tournament reopening discussion — Reveals organizer hesitation despite IFPA reopening; indicates cautious, phased return to competitive play in Ontario

  • “I don't know Turtles. I do know Zeppelin. I don't know Mandalorian... All these machines, really guns and roses. And guess what? They're all going to be in these tournaments.”

    Jeff Teolis @ tournament prep discussion — Highlights the challenge of learning dozens of new modern games for competitive re-entry; illustrates game design complexity burden on players

    • Stephen Bowden
    person
    Snow Galvinperson
    Josh Sharpperson
    Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pin Clash 2event
    Pinklashevent
    Avengers Infinity Questgame
    Mandaloriangame
    IFPAorganization
    Top Rope Pinballorganization
    IE Pinballorganization
    Brisbane Mastersevent
    David Raymansonperson
    Richard Rhodesperson
    Mitch Curtisperson
  • ?

    operational_signal: Ontario-area league organizers not rushing to restart tournaments despite IFPA reopening; consensus decision to delay until mid-October 2021 for higher vaccine coverage

    high · Jeff: 'Every single league, not one of them was in a rush to start up again... mid-October... a lot of people will have received their second vaccines'

  • ?

    community_signal: Estimated 10-15% attrition rate of original competitive players post-reopening; unclear whether due to lost interest, virus concerns, or vaccine hesitancy; offset by new players from lockdown period

    medium · Ryan C: 'There are still maybe like 10-15% of people that didn't come back... Those people have been replaced by new people that have gotten into pinball as a hobby'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts show divergent preferences for live tournament streams vs. produced/scripted game reveal videos; Jeff prefers polished, edited content; both watched only 5-20 minutes of Pinklash live stream

    medium · Jeff: 'I prefer a produced video... versus a live reveal... I'd rather see something a little more polished and a little more almost scripted'

  • ?

    collector_signal: LE games sell out quickly and maintain strong secondary market resale value; Jeff jokes about buying LE games specifically for $3,000+ resale profit without needing to play

    medium · Jeff: 'you buy every le because you know you can flip it... you'll get 3000 more for it that's why i'm doing it baby'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Tension between competitive depth/longevity (which requires complex rules) and casual accessibility (which suffers from rule complexity); designers must balance for different audience segments

    medium · Marty: 'for long term... the longevity of the pinball machine... you need those kind of rule nuances... it's just my brain... I'm at that point in my pinball journey where I don't want to read rules'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Returning competitive players face significant challenge learning rules for numerous new games released during pandemic; Jeff lists Avengers, Turtles, Zeppelin, Mandalorian, Guns N Roses, Rick and Morty as unknowns

    high · Jeff: 'I haven't had any time on Rick and Morty. I don't know Turtles... All these machines, really guns and roses. And guess what? They're all going to be in these tournaments'

    • 3:18
    Eat a bag of dicks, dude. Seriously. Eat a bag of dicks. I'm full, but maybe tomorrow. Robert, hey, good luck in Pin Clash 3. I know you're already getting ready for that bye and the quick exit. Maybe faster intros. I don't know what you can do. But you know what? You got on the final round. It wasn't in a pinball competition, but it was on a podcast. I don't know. Here's the thing. I'm up to 15 people watching my drunk-ass stream right now with you guys online. So, I mean, your sponsorship and your endorsements are golden for me. So, you know, that money is just rolling in right now, dude, rolling. Okay. Marty. We'll talk to Robert again when he wins something. How about that? Okay. See you in a couple of years.
    4:02
    I've got to end on one thing. You know, it's my signature thing. So here's the thing. You know, if you smell, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, fucking yell. Well, Rob is choking. I mean, flipping. Fuck.
    4:19
    See you, buddy. Take care. Peace out, bros. Bye. He's actually a good player. You just wouldn't know it when you watch him. I think Robert and I share a lot when it comes to our pinball experiences in that our alcohol to skill ratio is very similar. so I would I probably recommend to him just ease off on it just a little bit and see how much further you go. Are you talking about the booze or playing pinball? Haha, well a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Well that sucks, we had a guest all lined up for an hour and a bit but he didn't last an hour and a bit. He was in and out quick so what are we going to do? We've always got a backup plan, don't we? Do we go to plan B? Absolutely, let's do it. Or should we call it Plan C? Ooh.
    5:25
    Hello, Ryan C. How are you, my friend? G'day, mate. Going good. Just coming out of lockdown here again. Fourth lockdown. Fourth time's the charm. Are we actually out of lockdown? I mean, technically, we're out of lockdown to increase everyone's mental sanity, but we still can't do stuff. I can go over to Marty's house if we have sex, but if I just want to hang out and play pinball, I can't do it. Yeah, he's been over every day for a week. Just let him go.
    5:58
    There's only so many reach-arounds you can reach around. that is insane that we're still talking lockdowns as the majority of the people listening to this program come from the united states that are going what lockdown i mean in canada we just kind of ease things a little bit we're allowed gatherings of 10 people as long as it's outside you're allowed to get a haircut now jeff but you still have that rude head don't talk to me about haircuts all right what is this a fashion show all of a sudden I'm hiding my head, Jeff. I just saw you on Pinklash, and you're just letting it out there, aren't you? You've just given up on life. I'm sorry I'm not like you, and I don't go to a professional photographer to get dick pics made.
    6:45
    Could you add a little color there, please? Is there any way to enhance that? Look, Jeff, the stuff that I send you in private is meant to just stay there. In the last 18 months, have you sent more dick pics or bought more new in-box games? Because I'm not sure. I'm not sure which is higher. I'd say it's a lot of both. It's, um... Well, I mean, when you buy a pinball machine, you can also sell it, but... When you send a dick pic, it's all over. No, I don't send that kind of stuff. I'm a classy guy. I don't get involved in that kind of behavior. Okay. We all know that's not true.
    7:24
    Is this why he got me on the show, guys? It's like... Of course it is. Well, not really. I mean, it's just a bonus. So, whilst you're brought up, let's get serious just for a second. Let's talk about Pinklash, because it just finished. I watched the entire thing. What about you guys? I totally forgot it was on.
    7:49
    I watched around 10 or 20 minutes. I did see the end. I did see... Are we allowed to talk spoilers? Yes, but for those people that know, spoiler alert, we're about to tell you who won. I was watching Escher play, and I was kind of thinking, like, ah, man, this is just the Escher show. I'm just sitting here watching Escher win again. And then he didn't, and I was like, whoa, what was that? But it was another Colorado kid, so really, Escher Part 2? Z-Mac, Zach McCarthy, was the big winner, and the guy's a great player, too. He was even wearing a Comet shirt underneath his jacket there. Not as cool as your head-to-head shirt. You did watch, okay, good. I told you I fucking did. Why would I lie? But I'll tell you my take out from this. It wasn't just how great the play was and just watching everybody sort of upsets and comebacks. You know, it had everything. What I was really surprised about is that I thought I knew a lot about Avengers Infinity Quest rules by now. There's a whole layer of stuff that I just had no idea existed. And I know that even Stephen Bowden didn't know one of them. He's like, I don't know how to get this. Can someone explain how to do it? That's just how many freaking rules are in that game. Well, that's what amazes me too, because Ryan, you got sick of Avengers. And I don't know why you did. I know you were comparing it to Elvira, the easiest game ever made. Why did you get sick of Avengers? I watched Pin Clash, and I did watch the entire thing. And it made me want that game even more. I kind of openly said that I think that Avengers is like the greatest shooting game I've ever played and I knew there was a depth and complexity of the rules that I was yet to learn it's kind of like what Martin just said like Marty you've played Avengers you've enjoyed it the rules I think it's one of those games where you have to sit there and read the rule set which there's nothing wrong with that it's just my brain I'm at that point in my pinball journey where I don't want to read rules. And if a game isn't fun to me without reading the rule set, maybe if I had someone sitting there explaining it to me, but I just, I kind of refuse to do it. It's like a stubbornness thing now. But you're somebody that's really into rules and you're fatigued by this kind of rule. Imagine what the general public's like. I'm into rules. I mean, maybe that was me a couple of years ago. And I said, I'm glad I kind of learned the nuances of the rules to games like Metallica and whatnot. Then when I wasn't fatigued by them, But there are so many games coming out that, and when you kind of play competitive pinball, I just can't do it. And that's just me. And that doesn't mean that Avengers is a bad game. It's not. It just wasn't for me. And I don't know. I blindly bought Mandalorian, and Mandalorian might be the same. It might be the same thing where I'm like, if I can't enjoy it like Alvira, I kind of don't really want to own it. Hold on a second. You think Avengers rules are maybe a little difficult? You think Dwight can explain any rule of his in 30 seconds or less? Good luck, kid. that's that's the thing though like for long term like the longevity of the pinball machine someone's in someone's collection you need those kind of rule nuances so they're definitely not not a bad thing it's just i don't know i don't think i'm good enough for i think i'm i'm not a good enough pinball player do you understand the rules jeff were you watching and and did you know everything before they explained at all i didn't know everything or even half the things before they played the games, but then I've only flipped it twice in a showroom because of the pandemic. So I haven't really got time on it. And I don't usually watch a lot of streams for launches. I prefer, and this isn't everyone, I prefer a produced video explaining a game versus a live reveal. That's just me. And again, I would rather see something a little more polished and a little more almost scripted. I know it sounds weak, but I think scripted is better to go just to explain it and you do it live because you want the excitement you know everyone wants to see the new toy it's christmas day you unwrap it you get to see all the toys i get that but it doesn't do anything for me and and i know you're the same as me ryan we watched about five minutes of the stream and we were done we're like i'll watch it later the difference is i've i bought one for 15 14 and a half thousand dollars you're also an operator though yeah but i bought an le i bought it for myself you buy every le because you know you can flip it that doesn't mean you ever have to play the game you know you'll get the value of an le yeah you don't even have to unbox it you'll get 3 000 more for it that's why i'm doing it baby no it's um it's a it's a weird time i guess for pinball because yeah you have to just we're lucky enough that we we can do this but heaven forbid le's didn't sell out uh i mean i think the reveal streams used to be hey we need to convince more people to buy the game but now it's almost like a validation checkpoint like we we sold a whole bunch of them we could sell some more but let's just show it off in a in a certain light enough that people that pre-ordered it are not gonna not gonna cancel so i don't know it's a it's a forever evolving thing but still in uncharted waters you know the market hasn't been like this forever and i don't think it's gonna stop it's gonna keep on going if they can make the games jeff right these damn computer chips, right? We'll talk more about Mandalorian and new pinball machines in a second, but back to the pin clashing. Kudos to Carl D'Angelo and IE Pinball, to Snow Galvin of Colorado Pinball Collective, Stephen Bowden of Fun With Bonus, and all the people behind the scenes that made that happen, because Marty can probably understand this from someone who's produced streams. Just the appreciation, the timing, the really laying it out before it happens, kind of anticipating any problems here or there, They're guesstimating the times needed for all these things to lay it out. And it's just such a perfect production. I can't say enough about what Carl has done. But think about what happened from the first pin clash to this. I don't think there was anything that was done differently to the production this time. But it worked so much better than last time because he learned all the different things that could possibly go wrong and how to cater for them. And so this was just smooth, smooth, smooth. as somebody who did those interviews before the players played to kind of introduce you to who they are. It was that for sure. That's kind of the content of it. But the real truth of it is it's really just a gap to set up two different streamers, make sure the camera's right, make sure they understand the rules, make sure the judges have everything set, the timers. It's all the stuff you don't see. While the interview's going on, it's all this filler stuff. It gives Snow and Steven a break, a time to breathe, grab a drink, whatever the case may be. me watching, I thought, okay, those are long, but I realized why they were long, because of the time needed for them. So again, just Carl kind of thinking that out was pretty impressive. I guess feedback, people were saying that they were long? I thought they were just the right length. I thought they were a little long. I saw the times, I thought, oh, that's, you know, people, I want to see competition, but I also know that you need X amount of minutes in between each round to set things up. So it's really just a buffer zone too. Sometimes it might go, okay, boom, boom, we're ready to go. But other times, and it happened in the first match, the interviews ran in the first match, and they still weren't set up. So things happen, right? People's streams. I know in Chicago there was a huge storm that happened too. Luckily, I don't think there were any players in the Chicago area, but things like that, power, all that kind of stuff. I mean, we had one player, I think it was Bill Mason, his overhead camera froze. It's things like that that they have to check. So anyway, we'll move on from pin class two. I'm not sure if there'll be a pin clash three because we might be back to live competitions. The IFPA has reopened. Ryan, what is going to happen to your precious Vipers? We've decided to keep the Vipers going. It is a little bit weird because we're too late in the year for the dollar fee to go. There's no Australian pinball championships being accumulated this year. So it's a bit weird now because the dollar is going to go towards, I guess, next year. so you have to figure out how to build the fortune for the vipers because yeah that's going to be put on hold um still running the background points wise but um no money so it's it's weird it's um i wasn't kind of expecting that announcement i i guess everyone knew it was coming eventually but i kind of um lost track because things have kind of gone back to normal and then i'm like wow how do i do i submit tournaments how do i do it what's what's my login um it's been a long time since i've had to do all this ifpa stuff i was the same as you ryan when when it was announced i kind of went oh that feels like a lot sooner than i thought i honestly thought it was going to come back next year but i think that's because where we are we've had such a slow rollout of the vaccine whereas the rest of the world has had a big rollout of the vaccine which means they're in a better position to get back to normality.
    16:50
    Yeah, it's rolling out here. I know I've asked you, Marty, and I think you, Ryan, I know, Ryan, I don't think you can get it because you're under the age of 20 or at least mature-wise.
    17:00
    But old farts like Marty, he can take his walker up and get one anytime he wants. Is that correct? Well, I do want to talk about this just for a second, not as a bit of a woe is me, but I just want to let you know. So in Australia, so I think around the world, there are a number of different brands of vaccine that you can get. And I think they're sort of saying the Pfizer is the one you want to get. But the one that we have, AstraZeneca is the name. I don't know whether you guys got the AstraZeneca. But bottom line is, it's the cheapest one of all of them, is what I'm led to believe. So our government, being as fucked as it is, decided to buy AstraZeneca. And now you really, if you're over 50, you get AstraZeneca. if you're under 50, you get Pfizer. And, you know, I'm glad that I'm vaccinated. But fucking hell, it knocked me. Knocked me for days. When did you get it? Just, oh, a week ago. Just over a week ago. Congrats. That's good. And I felt like I'd been hit by a bus for two days. But I'm told that means that the vaccine is working. I've received flu shots for years. and sometimes I feel like crap, like I have the flu the next day and I'm being told that means it's working. So that's a good thing. I have family members that have AstraZeneca too.
    18:21
    Yeah, but it's the cheap one. So they're giving it to us oldies. Because you don't have any important money because you're old. That's exactly what it means. It's not like you're making pinball machines.
    18:34
    And just to add to the, I guess, information about what's happening in Australia because I guess there's a lot of headlines about and a lot of people in the US have mentioned or when I have conversations with them over the last year, like, oh, I wish I was in Australia. You guys have figured it out and everything's pretty messed up here. Our approach was totally different than the approach of other countries, especially the US, and trying to eliminate the virus has worked well in certain states. In the state that me and Marty are in, we've had like four kind of outbreaks from hotel quarantine. So they've kind of eliminated the virus and then something's happened and it's leaked out. And when it leaks out, they shut everything down, everything. And the third lockdown or the second, I can't remember, lasted 112 days. And that was kind of, that was pretty painful. A lot of people lost their jobs, a lot of businesses went bust. The one that we went through now was just two weeks, but It felt like months for me. But because we eliminated the virus to a certain degree, people have been pretty relaxed about getting vaccinated because it hasn't affected their life until this latest lockdown. And now it's kind of kicked everyone into gear saying, okay, we don't want to go through this again. I guess we have to get vaccinated. Let's be crazy and go back to pinball for a second. Sorry, I apologize for those who are listening to this for no pinball. Well, you talked about IFPA, Jeff. I can't run a tournament right now because you're not allowed to stand up in a venue. What if you have sex with all the players?
    20:10
    No, it would be kind of like, what's that movie where everyone's attached from ass to mouth? Human Centipede?
    20:18
    Yeah, we can do like a Human Centipede tournament. That's the easiest, most efficient way to do it. Or everyone giving everyone a reach around. It's a big long train. And then when you finish a game, you go to the back. It's the new Flip Frenzy. yeah yeah wow so i mean that's it actually is really an interesting point that you make for so long australians have been saying well hang on we can we can now run tournaments but we can't have whoppers and now it's the complete opposite whoppers are back on but we can't run tournaments i'll put things into perspective here in ontario and i reached out to about seven different leagues within like a two-hour radius. There are a lot of leagues. I know you don't have a lot of leagues, but let's say they're leagues, they're tournaments, whatever they are, events. And because IFPA is going to open up competitive pinball and ratings and rankings and all those kind of good things, whoppers, as of August 1st this summer, people, players are asking, okay, when are the leagues starting up? So as an organizer of two of those leagues, I thought I would talk with other people. And every single league, not one of them was in a rush to start up again. As exciting as it is to do this, we're just not ready yet. We're just coming out of lockdown and we kind of want to wait. I think the feeling for a lot of the people I've talked to is probably mid-October, which is our Thanksgiving, early October. After that point, a lot of people will have received their second vaccines. So I think that's one of the big factors because with leagues and a lot of tournaments, they're done not necessarily on location, but at people's homes. And do you want to have a lot of people come over to your house that may or may not be vaccinated? We're probably going to insist on masks for the rest of the calendar year, which is fine. I know they're still doing that. I know great places. We saw Wisconsin do that with District 82. I know Florida has run a bunch of tournaments and they all wearing masks Mitch Curtis does it out in Boston and they even outdoors and they still wearing masks So these things are happening and it great But the fact that in October it probably going to be colder weather We can really take these machines outside. It's going to be in people's homes. We're just not ready yet until we know that the number of vaccines have gone up. It's an interesting thing, Jeff, because a couple of months ago, there was an interesting discussion going on in a local group chat about vaccinations and what the impact is going to be on local tournaments. And it was kind of getting out of control. And I was like, oh, shit, I'm the state rep. I guess I might be involved in a decision here. But I'm like, no, surely the IFPA will enforce some kind of rule. I can just point to that. When someone complains about a rule and you're like, well, check it out. Josh Sharp says you lose, so you lose. So actually, I kind of asked the IFPA, is there going to be an official stance? And it's been announced now, and there isn't. They're going to, you know, I guess because the situation is different and there's laws that kind of apply to it, there is no IFPA rule about whether you have to be vaccinated or not. And I know there's medical reasons and exemptions and whatnot, which is fine, but it's kind of like a funny situation to put a tournament director in because they're going to be in charge of enforcing that. So whether it's at their house or, as you said, a league, this is, I guess, like an added pressure to run a tournament, but also to keep people's health and safety in the back of their minds. So what's your opinion then on the state of readiness for pinball tournaments here in Australia? Well, I don't know, because it was completely different three weeks ago before we had the latest outbreak. you just you kind of forget about it and i forgot about kind of coronavirus because and but without everyone being vaccinated and you just realize how absolutely fragile our living conditions are to be completely free and then to not be allowed to leave anywhere like five kilometers from your house like it is just so i just need to stop you there where you say you know how fragile our living conditions are like your house that's got 20 pinball machines in a swimming pool and it's over three stories old. No, no. People don't realise my living standards. Come on. My garage only fits two cars.
    24:33
    As in your way of life. Anyway, my point is... It's your liberties, Ryan. Your liberties. Your freedom. Yeah, the way you go about life. What you can and can't do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so anyway. Yeah, I haven't actually put much thought into it. I don't have to submit tournaments for another three weeks and I'll probably do it last minute. because, yeah, just assess the situation to see where it is and, yeah, if we're ready to bring it back, we'll bring it back. The reason why I was asking that is because you're obviously closer to the tournament scene in Melbourne. I think, was it last January at your place was the last tournament I was in? So I just figured that you would be closer. And I was in that chat group that you were talking about as well, so I saw all the hilarity that ensued there. but it's more so just the conversations that you have with people. Are people sort of knocking on your door as the state rep saying, fucking open these tournaments up, give us our whoppers, or people just like, whatever, as long as we're having fun? No, I think one person messaged me about whoppers. Richard Rhodes.
    25:39
    That's going to be the interesting part about the IFBA coming back because I guess people in the US haven't come back yet in many states, whereas we already started so attendance has been pretty high. There are still maybe like 10-15% of people that didn't come back and I'm not sure if that's because pinball has come and gone for them, competitive pinball, or if they're just waiting for whoppers. But those people have been replaced by new people that have gotten into pinball as a hobby during lockdown, during corona times. So it'll be interesting to see when the IFPA comes back if it grows that step further or if, as I said, has coronavirus killed the passion for competitive pinball for a certain percentage of people? Interesting to see the stats. I'm sure Josh will be able to provide that info a couple of months in. I think there's also some people that haven't come back because there's still a virus in the air. So as much as people are going to be masked up and do social distancing, I think there's probably some people that have just gone, And I'm not going to come back to a tournament until we are absolutely in the key. Definitely. Zach McCarthy won the pin clash today where he's playing a pinball machine by himself. I don't know where he was. He wore a mask the entire time. And he, like myself, has glasses too. So you always have to wear your glasses a little bit lower so they don't fog up from the masks. Because they fog up, don't they?
    27:07
    Again, that's my problem. Ryan's is my dining room is not as big as my third bedroom. I can't fit 12 seats on my dining table, only 10. I will happily make this the new Ryan joke instead of the STI and dick pic jokes or whatever. Too bad. I tell you what, if I hear My Little Pecker one more time, fuck me. Oh my God, that joke has run its course. I wasn't going to play it. You were. I was not. You say that now, but you know I wasn't going to play it. That's you live right now saying it. I was done with it. Well, you have every other time. Especially with Ryan's sensitive C, I thought I will not play Heaven for... He doesn't understand what a running gag is. So when I released a pinball profile this week with Josh Sharp, and I played the Josh, ah, theme, I thought, oh, that dickhead's going to give me a call and say, oh, really funny, making fun of Josh. Do you know what? I get so many compliments. I'm like, oh, I love that song. It's great. And I'm like, I can't stop doing it, I guess. I mean, I will if he ever wins a major. so like I said I'll never stop doing it I think the bottom line of what you're trying to say Jeff is that you're hilarious I'm pretty sure there was a story about how you used to be a comedian you used to be funny at one stage in your life is that right? I used to have short hair too yeah you used to cover your hair you used to act your age right Marty you know age appropriate Oh, fuck me. Anyway. So, speaking of whoppers, how's about the bad timing with Brisbane Masters? Yeah, I know. Move it a few weeks, because they're in July, right? Yeah, they're in late July as well, I think. They missed the cutoff by, I think, maybe the last event by three or four days. But it's quite interesting, because I think they, I might be wrong, don't quote me on this, but I think they have a couple of tournaments on there that don't really follow an IFBA-style structure. They're trying some new fun things. That's what's been great about things opening up a bit earlier here, is that there's experimentation that can be had without the fear of, like, oh, I wonder how much this tournament's going to be worth whopper-wise and whatnot. It's just for fun, and then we'll see what happens once the whoppers come back. Yeah, they're doing that human centipede tournament you talked about.
    29:34
    Hey, you two, don't laugh. I'm not funny. Don't laugh. no laughing I'm not funny I'll tell you the good news is at least this time we won't have all the Americans coming over stealing our Whoppers because guess what fuckers there are no Whoppers there's nothing to steal easiest place to get Whoppers ever anybody listening go to Australia they just hand them out to anybody not from that country yeah we are all shit players hey Jeff absolutely every one of you yeah I'm kidding you know the one thing that is interesting when we do get back together And I look at what's going to happen in 2022 when probably when we'll see everyone kind of get back into competitive pinball that was interested. And those new people that Ryan talked about, because for sure, there are a lot of new people that have been watching all these machines and these streams like, oh, this sounds like fun. The big challenge for me as somebody who likes to play competitive pinball is all the new games. We talked about Avengers and maybe not knowing those rules. I haven't had any time on Rick and Morty. I don't know Turtles. I do know Zeppelin. I don't know Mandalorian. I don't know this, this, this. All these machines, really guns and roses. And guess what? They're all going to be in these tournaments. So I'm going to be like, ugh, back to, you know, square one. Well, okay. Let's talk about something that we touched on before, and it's still pandemic related. Sorry, guys, if you're fucking sick of this pandemic, but we're still in it. And that is we're having this big discussion about the supply of pinball machines because there is this big shortage of computer chips and silicon and all that stuff. And I think I just read and told that our Mandalorian premiums have been delayed and then the second shipment of pros have been delayed and everyone's calling out the supply of chips. What do we think?
    31:21
    Yeah, you add the silicone chips, the computer chips for sure. That is a big, big problem. But when this pandemic started, when Turtles came out, the first game after the pandemic came out, that game took forever to be produced. Because, understandably, the assembly line, the manufacturing was all kind of shut down because of the virus. And then we heard parts problem. Those parts problems haven't gone away. In fact, there are new parts problems. The computer chips. I can tell you one thing. My real job doing radio and sales and whatnot, Three major car companies told me that it is going to be very difficult to have any type of inventory for the next 12, maybe 18 months, which means they can't make cars. I'm not trying to sound gloom and doom, but a lot of these plants are going to have a little bit of shutdown if they can't complete a car because of the computer chips. So they employ a lot of people. What else has computer chips? Everything. Appliances. Computers. I know that's a shocker. But everything you can possibly imagine probably has computer chips in it. And pinball's got to be way down the list as far as getting these chips. I don't know if you can speak to this, Marty, or not. I mean, you work for a pinball company. I don't know if this is a problem we're even being discussed at Haggis. But we're seeing production really far behind. The Mandalorian, that game was teased on May 11th. On June 11th, this past Friday, I didn't know one person that received a pro. Not one person. And I asked dealers, when are you getting your models in? A lot of them are like, we're still waiting. I've got a mate who got one. The point is they used to show these and they would be out within days. That's not the case. It's been weeks and who knows how long. And that's the big company. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And the situation at the moment is it's classic supply and demand, right? Because there's not a lot of supply and the demand's the same as it's always been, the one variable that then changes is the price. so even though you're saying oh you know car manufacturers get priority well it's whoever's willing to pay for it is who's actually going to get the chips so what it's actually really going to do is push up prices if anything not necessarily too much about the supply and I can't speak for Stern and I certainly don't want to speak for Stern now that I'm employed by Haggis but it really does have an impact on whether you are going to buy those chips at now the increased price and either take the hit in your margin or whether you're going to pass it on to the consumers. But it has an impact to your bottom line more than anything. And some companies will either suck it and go, well, you know, for haggis, for example, 250 mermaids, it means that if something's gone up 100%, it's times 250. That's different to times 5,000, if that makes sense. Plus, yeah. I mean, on a mobile phone where they have a whole bunch of integrated circuits on there, and maybe not tie the margins, depends on what kind of phone you're buying, it's going to affect their bottom line a lot. Surely there's enough fat on pinball machines, and surely if this was the issue with them releasing pinball machines, Jeff, then they would come out and say, if mobile phone companies are like, hey, we can't do this, and car companies, it's a good reason. Like, if they can say we can't make our products because of this shortage, then if people are complaining with pinball, surely they can say, well, hey, we have that same problem. But I haven't heard it. I haven't heard any companies on this unless I've missed it. Dude, PlayStation came out with a PlayStation 5 before Christmas. They had a bunch out. They didn't make that many games, but smart. They wanted to get the sales before Christmas. Still difficult to find those things. So phones, computers, any types of transportation, it's going to be a big problem. And pinball is way down the list. I get what you're saying, Marty, about we have $250 for Mermaid Edition for Haggis, and they have thousands, let's say, for Mandalorian for Stern. Well, as you know, the more you buy, the cheaper the cost is for all the parts, right? When you buy more, the price comes down a little bit. I'm just saying those pale in comparisons to iPhones, to cars, to everything else. Pinball is just not that big of an industry. Yeah, but I don't think it matters the size of the industry and the size of your wallet. And I also think because there may be a bit of an advantage to being a smaller buyer because, you know, with a car, a car company might need to buy a million of them per go. Whereas a pinball manufacturer might only need, what, 250 or 1,000. So it's much easier to skim that amount off. You're going to piss off your main... Buyer? They won't know. They won't know because it's a minor amount. I don't know. But that's my take on it. I also don't know, but I would guess the other way. If you work in the silicon chip industry, email finalroundpinball at gmail.com and let us know who you're making all the money off.
    36:29
    I do think it's a concern for sure. And again, with Mandalorian coming out, what, May 11th? We're just seeing games a month later. I thought it at the time. I feel this now. people were wondering when the new game was coming and the last game was Zeppelin in December before that, normally they do one in let's say March or April, three or four a year, I thought they should have waited because maybe now would have been the time to release it if they're just rolling out now and again, that is the biggest company in the world I have often said this that I think Stern have survived remember they were the only one that survived the dark times, they've survived because they are very clever. They are very clever people, right? They are cleverer than me. There you go. I've said it. Maybe not Keith Elwynn, but some of them are very clever people.
    37:20
    Georgie Poyding. These people, absolutely. So they know this. It's not like we're bringing up stuff and someone from Stern's List is going, oh, damn, I wish we knew all about this. They know. They obviously had to release Mandalorian for some reason, whatever reason it is. I mean, it had already been a while since there had been an announcement. Maybe that's just they don't need to ship games the second they announce them anymore. They can just still take their time. Yeah, when I heard of someone ordering a premium and being told August for Mandalorian and then they got a call saying, sorry, that is now December, I'm like, okay, what are you going to do? I'm like, well, what can you do? I want a Mandalorian premium there's you know like I have to wait Stern doesn't have a monopoly on the market but it's not like there's anything else like if you want a pinball machine today and it's new in Australia anyway there's no stock and if you're new into pinball we talked about I think last time Marty like what advice do you give people when they're getting into pinball and they want to buy a new machine I mean you can tell them to go buy a brand new Stern Pro for nine and a half grand in Australia but you also have to then add the asterisk of you will probably have to wait six months until you get your machine. We're recording this before Monday, and on the TPN, there's the TPS show that airs on Monday with Zach Menny, who has Flippin' Out. What does TPS stand for? I assume it's the price show. I mean, is that what it is, the price show? My God, the last episode was like there were more prices given out than watching a stock ticker. I get it, but what I really want to know, Zach, and I think you're listening, is tell us what the inventory is like. And maybe you can't speak because you have some sort of deal with the manufacturers, but I would imagine it's very, very difficult to get these things out. It's not difficult to get the orders, but I know of many people that were waiting for certain machines, and because the delays were so long, and this is when the pandemic started, it's going to be the same now that they switch to another machine, and they'll get the other one later, if at all. Bit of a concern. From the same manufacturer, Jeff? or uh i know yes and no i don't want to say the names specifically but i'm sure the manufacturers and definitely the distributors know of the games that were cancelled and money moved to another one okay i've been waiting four or five months for this machine it's not coming in you've got my money give me that machine and it may or may not have been the same company are you looking forward to dealing with all these issues when you're um you know vp marty of of haggis pimble and you're second, you're creeping up on Stern's numbers as Australia's and the world's biggest pinball manufacturer? You know what, if we ever get to that situation, I would gladly feel those kinds of problems because it would mean that we would have had so much success up to that moment that it's worth having to do with that kind of shit. So, Marty, you mentioned, I think in the last podcast, that you as a company decided not to show gameplay of Fathom extended the... Oh, sorry, what's it called again? I should know, I've bought one. Yes, and the 2.0 code, yeah, the revisited code, yes. Was that a decision because you knew you were going to sell out? Like, would that decision have been made differently if, say, hey, you released it in the first couple of weeks, you sold 50 only, we need a sales push? Was that a product of that situation? Or was it always going to be not showing the game until... I don't know, are you going to show the game before it ships? Or is this like an unbox it and enjoy it type situation? I still maintain, because you know me, so I have somewhat of a say when it comes to the release of the game. My vote has always been, I want people to experience it for the first time when they get the machine. Now, obviously, as Carl mentioned last episode, people are going to stream it and people are going to see, but not everybody because not everybody watches streams i i do want it to be that moment and because it's sold out it makes that decision easier is probably the best way to answer that my two cents is somebody who doesn't work in pinball but there are podcasters out there that think they're great marketers so i'll do the same right now i think the first video or whatever caption of the game should not be from somebody streaming it that bought it. I think it should be produced, much like I said to Mandalorian, and produced by Haggis, because that is going to be the one that's seen the most, the first one. So I get your point about, I understand why you want that excitement for the people when they first receive it, but you don't have to show everything, but just show something to maybe get them excited. I don't know when your next release of the next title is going to be, but you want to see that, wow, this really works. Look at how that shoots. Look at how pretty it is and this and that and the call-outs and the apron and everything that's being put into Fathom Revisited. You putting out that piece as opposed to somebody else who maybe has a shitty camera, maybe doesn't know how to play pinball, maybe they haven't set it up right or – Maybe adds their opinion to it or – Or maybe they have the best cameras. Maybe they have the best – like you're saying as though it's the worst-case scenario, but it could be the best-case scenario. It would definitely be the best-case scenario if it was Haggis doing it. You don't have to roll the dice. Yeah, sure. Okay. I mean, yeah, it's what you said, Marty, you know, you don't want to give people that option of watching it. I mean, eventually they will, and you could almost say the same thing about kind of the streams now. Like you have bought and received certain pinball machines without looking at footage, which is your choice. So it doesn't really matter, but there's always going to be a percentage of people that want to know everything about what they purchased before they get it. So if you leave that up to me, Mermaid Edition number 69, I don't know. My kids.
    43:26
    I disagree with you, and that's one of the things I love about Haggis and Spooky. And I didn't understand this years ago. I never understood why Spooky limited their games if the demand was bigger. And I think this was at the time of TNA, where they could have definitely outsold the number of games that they made. I can say the same thing about Rick and Morty. but because they did put a hard cap on it that did make them a little more desirable you had to get in or you miss out or buy it on the second-hand market and i love that haggis did that too the other thing to that as well ryan i will say as well is you know where haggis is not a big company obviously i mean i'm saying stuff that we all know all the stuff that's been released so far has all been done in-house i hope damien doesn't mind me saying this but you know we haven't got a PR company and a marketing company and... Are you saying that Damien's daily updates aren't filmed by a professional studio? I know, that makes me shocked. It's the same guy who does your dick pics That makes me shocked No laughing I not funny The reason why I say that is and it comes back to you know again what you were saying before about Carl D'Angelo, and I'm not saying that anything that we would do would be of that quality, but that time spent doing that, or spend time getting games out the door, for a company our size, I would recommend people get the games out the door. Definitely. And I think, I hope you don't mind me saying this, Marty, like Haggis still has a lot to prove in terms of shipping out games. And I 100% believe in you guys, but I would have thought that some people that didn't order Merman Edition, and I didn't really see people mentioning it on Pinside, I think some people were just maybe a little bit apprehensive. and the only way for them not to be apprehensive is for Haggis to succeed by shipping out all their Celts, shipping out all their Mermaid editions and then everyone's like, okay, cool, we trust these guys because they trust you based on the face value and kind of the likability of the company and whatnot but in terms of shipping pinball machines, you guys have still everything to prove. You are absolutely right. So again, I know the value in a gameplay video, don't worry, I know, but I also know that there is more value in people getting a rock-solid game. And so we've got to get Celts out the door. The factory has been built. That's taken some time. The team's coming on board. That takes some time. I would rather people spend their efforts manufacturing games than if we get that breathing and we go, okay, we've got some time, then we'll do a video. I just want to stop and appreciate that, I guess, no Piml machines, except for the first KELTS that shipped a couple of months ago, no Piml machines had been made in Australia in decades. Forty years. Yeah, forty years. And it's just, it's kind of mind-blowing that we were kind of, not holding on, but when HomePin kind of announced they were making a Piml machine, I mean, it was an Australian, but he packed up and moved overseas. and then everyone in Australia, most people kind of wanted to disassociate themselves. Like, well, it's not really Australian, just an Australian person overseas. And now there's a kind of fully-fledged pinball company that's 25 minutes away from me, you know, 25 minutes. And, you know, I know someone now that works there and people I know, I'm sure, you know, you guys have to start hiring and ramping up now. People that I know and hang out with are going to be working at Australia's only pinball manufacturer. It's absolutely amazing. I get that sense of country pride. You know, that is very exciting that you guys are right there in Australia and it's minutes away from you and they're being made right there. I get the same feeling, too, with Pinball Adventures and Pony Factor.
    47:24
    What's the new one called? Elements. Magic Elements. Have you guys talked about that yet? No. Do you want to? No, we can't. No, let's not. Maybe you can have a...
    47:38
    No, but going back to what you were saying, Ryan, that was hilarious, by the way. Maybe you can produce a video like that, like that quality, Marty. We're not asking for a lot. We're just asking for a video of that quality just to showcase Fathom, please. Yeah, with some synced audio. Just going back to what you were saying, what really is interesting is that that moment or that feeling of being part of an Australian pinball manufacturer 40 years after Hankin. It's just not lost on us, and it's something that we sort of just, we look around at each other, and I know you know that I work there, but I would argue, because they haven't been announced yet, that you know a lot more people through the pinball community that now work at Haggis. And the reason why I bring that up is Australia has got very clever people, and a lot of really talented, clever, skilled people in the pinball community that never thought that they would ever work for a pinball company. So all of a sudden, Haggis comes up and says, hey, we need some people. All these people that I know that have got the most ridiculous levels of skill saying they want to come and work for the company, that's why it's not lost on me. Well, we know one of the guys that is now working for Haggis, Stuart Thornton. And why that's important to final round is he's now working at Haggis. He is the person that made the Reach Around trophy, so I can only assume that was his resume. Hey, let me come to Haggis. I can make things like this.
    49:09
    It was on his CV. Can you please let us know your 3D printing skills? It's just a bunch of balls. That's right. You may think that it was Jeff and I that gave you a Reach Around. It wasn't. It's actually Stu's Reach Around. He's the one that created this. So, yes, Stu Thornton is on board at Haggis. Wow. I didn't know that. exclusive yep and there's more people coming on board it's yeah it's it's funny because a couple of years ago you know when we didn't kind of think this was was possible there were so many people making homebrew pinball machines in australia and and it almost feels like a you know you see scott denisi kind of graduating from that and becoming part of spooky and and i almost felt like this is a pity because these machines will never see the light of day no one in the US will play them, you know, but that's, I guess, now a possibility. I mean, not everyone can become a game designer. It's not like Haggis has the capacity yet to have, like, five game designers on board, but nevertheless it's exciting. And last question, Marty. No, no, this is the Haggis show now. Go ahead, fuck.
    50:18
    Last question is that, I guess, you know, people always, you know, there's the famous saying that if you really enjoy what you do, you don't work a day in your life. You like pinball, Marty, and you're working in pinball now full-time. So what's it like? Is it easier doing something that you're passionate about? Okay. Again, very appropriate because I've had this conversation with a number of people over the last couple of weeks. You remember me at my old job in that I had a really stressful job and it was long hours and all that kind of stuff. It's the same, probably more hours now, but I don't resent the hours. I absolutely love every minute that I spend there, and I have never experienced that in my life. Ever having a job where every moment, even every challenge, is just so much fun because it's actually for something that you give a shit about. It really is a massive difference. I've never felt this way about a job. It's true. That's awesome. And that is an audio kiss-ass to Damien Harbour.
    51:24
    I'll add one more thing, and it's when I rang AMD, our Stern distributor, and I kind of got the call about me being confirmed to get a Mandalorian Alley, and it took about three weeks for them to figure it all out, get all their spreadsheets and line them all up, and the owner of the company kind of just frankly said, like, this is really stressful, Ryan, and it never used to be like this, and the whole point of us selling pinball machines is we are delivering fun. And you might think that's like a wanky kind of thing, but Stern and Gary Stern says it all the time, and pinball is meant to be fun, and it's a fun thing. So hopefully it can stay that way, Marty, and your whole pinball career and whatever path this takes you down is just fun forever. Yeah, well, it's early days. We're in the forming part of the forming, storming, norming, performing. Of course, you'd know what all that means. It's, you know, corporate shit. So we are. We're forming. But it's, as I said, really, really good people. Really. Like, I'll give Stu Thornton as an example. I've known Stu for a while. And not only did he create the reach arounds, he's also my head tech for the Melbourne Silver Bowl championship. Right. So I knew that he was pretty clever when it comes to pinball. In the time that he's been there at Haggis, my mind is blown away by what he can do with manufacturing. It's just – and I think that's what has happened with everybody that's arrived. Sorry, it is the Haggis show, Jeff. I do apologize. But, you know, Ryan. It's interesting. We don't do this every week. We're only on air every two weeks. No, we don't. And I did intentionally say that I didn't want to be the spokesperson for Haggis. Like, let Damien do that. He does it so well. But every single person that's come on board, like Stu, has just done something that's just blown me away. I didn't know you had this level of skill. And every single person that's in this company has just got this skill that would be for an organization that's got 50,000 employees. And here we are with 20, 25 employees. so we're just kind of fortunate that everybody has always wanted to have a dream job of working in pinball because they can ditch their job for these large organisations and come work for Haggis and have fun well I don't want to make it all about you Marty so Jeff how's your job at Deeper going?
    54:01
    I've done it that's really good I wish I had a good comeback that's really funny Well, we know DeepRoot. DeepRoot will get back up on their feet once the chip shortage stops. So don't worry. We know there's a valid reason for all the delays.
    54:22
    Here's the thing. We've seen pinball companies come and go. And I think from the ground up, we want every single one to work and be successful. But it does help that we are involved in the process. At least, you know, here's where we're at. Here's what we're trying to do here. The struggles we're having. Just that kind of transparency, that honesty, we certainly enjoy. And we have all the patience in the world for it. That's why I think Damien is such a wonderful person. That's why we all love Chuck Emery of Spooky because he brings us along. So we've seen other companies that may not have had that kind of pleasant introduction or bravado that maybe turned our heads or this and that. And it upsets us because when we see news of other things happening and other companies, in our little notes here, we see that Multimorphic is coming out with a new game. It's going to be licensed. Well, I've dealt with Jerry quite a few times, and Steven Silver seems wonderful, the guy who made Heist. That's a company I root for. And certainly with the P-Rock, P3, and all that kind of stuff, they've helped other companies. And I want to see them succeed. So I was excited to see, okay, you got a license. American Pinball. They say they're going to come out with two games this year, non-licensed. Me personally, I don't care if it's licensed or not. If it's a great game, I don't care. But I understand from operators, okay, it really does make a difference. and probably from sales as well. But to come up with two this year, I don't know if that's... That's incredible. They must have already been made or maybe the production line is bigger than I thought. Unless they say they're coming up with 100 games of each of these or something, a small number, okay, I'll buy it. But I just, again, that just seems a little premature to say that. Did they say that they were going to have two games this year? I just heard that the next two titles were going to be unlicensed, but two this year. Well, the goal is to have two this year. Yeah, okay, cool. And this is the company that said so long to Joe Balser, who I know you guys know. I really like Joe a lot. And you're getting rid of a guy who just made your best game in Hot Wheels. Why do you like Joe? Is it his game designs or do you like him personally? The answer is both because I obviously first knew of his game designs. You know how much I love The Simpsons. I mean, Marty, you own Wizard of Oz. And I had a Hobbit. I think Baywatch is a tremendous game. You know, Starship Troopers was pretty darn cool for the day. It's probably a very underrated game. I think it was in our little poll. Not all the games are home runs by any means, but I really kind of like his games. And they bring in Dennis Norman, a huge, huge name in pinball. But he's made one game in the last 15 years in Elvira. Is that it? I guess Multimorphic in a way for Lexi Lightspeed. But before that, it was 2007. And I'm saying this because I know Ryan's a big Norman guy. it is quite funny that there was a bit of a podcast echo chamber about dennis norman being the canary in the mine and like well when dennis leaves you know something's up um no and i that makes no sense yeah i i kind of thought the opposite i'm just like well maybe i don't know this is just a guess maybe dennis is really hard to work with i think dennis himself admits that It's his way. And a lot of true artists are like that. I get that, and I respect that because you have a vision, and it has to be done this way. But Dennis has been around a few times, right? He's been to all the different companies. When me and you, Marty, interviewed George Gomez all those years ago, I think I asked him, is the hardest part of your job managing people? And he said, yes, it is. These people can do the work. It's managing them. and these are real people with egos and personality and bringing it all together. I mean, it's just like every other company, but I think sometimes in pinball people forget that, well, this person can do this, John Papadu can make a game, so just enable him to make it. But it's a lot more complicated than that, isn't it? Yeah, I thought we brought this up a number of times. We've sort of tried to lift the lid on pinball companies when we were trying to understand them, is that there's the human element. And these people aren't robots. And so they're not going to come into work every single day and output at the same level every day. People are... One of my catchphrases that I used to say when I was working is, do you know what the hardest thing about managing people is? It's people, right? Because they are random. They are emotional. And they can react differently with different people. And so you've just got this constant randomness of a culture. And so I think George should say that the number one thing is managing people because they are difficult to manage, I can tell you now. And isn't it funny how there aren't many industries where we get to peel back the curtain and listen to podcast interviews, but also, like, I have how many people on my Facebook page or Instagram or whatever social media platform where I have access to these people and I can chat to them if they want. And, you know, just the other day, I'm not going to mention what company and what happened, but there was something happened to someone in the pinball industry. And this is kind of like a high-ish profile person. People know him. And some life event happened. And it was the first time that I was just like, I know it sounds stupid, but I was like, oh my gosh, this is a human being. I always thought of this person as like, this is the guy who does this job at the company and he does it well and whatever it is, but he's just a human being, just like everyone else. But sometimes I think we forget it because, you know, pinball is our pastime. It's what brings us joy. And these are the people who deliver it. But they also, you know, have a life outside of pinball. Back in head-to-head days, you remember that time my brother died, right? Because it all happened. We didn't do it. But it was weird because at that same moment, I mean, we weren't really famous. We were just, you know, a couple of dickheads doing a podcast. But when that happened, and I didn't announce it, but somehow it got around, I had all these people that were like gods to me in the pinball community all reaching out to me saying, just heard, just saying hi, hope you're well. That stuff's really, really impactful. So whatever you did, it would have had a good impact. I love this community. It is the reason why I do this podcast, Pinball Profile, tournaments, anything else. I would say it's a small percentage of people that are the dickheads, and I want everyone to succeed, every company to succeed. You're right about the human element. I don't like piling on people. If I poke fun at people, it's probably because I really like them a lot, and you can kind of sense that, as you and I do every week, and I do with others. But it is a good community, and they've got your back, and it's in a way a second family for a lot of us, especially in this quote-unquote pinball media where we get around and we talk to people that we've maybe even never met before, but they certainly know the ins and outs about us. Brian, you're the dickhead. You're the one who shits on people, not me. Not Marty.
    61:11
    If something went wrong with you, all kidding aside, we'd all be like, hey man, is everything okay? Yeah, of course. And then call you a dickhead.
    61:20
    Then sign your record, man. Yeah, wow, this got pretty deep, didn't it, Jeff and Marty? A dickhead really serious, didn't it? Lisa Lampanelli said something I really, really enjoyed, and she's... Who? An absolute funny comedian who just cuts deep. She did a lot of those celebrity roasts. She's kind of like the female Don Rickles. Okay. I'd love to know who the male Don Rickles is first. You're the only one listening to this podcast who doesn't know who Don Rickles is. Ryan? No. I know who Lisa Manelli is, though. Wow. I know who Liza Manelli is. Are they related? Okay. The story is now dead because we're now talking about Liza Manelli. Oh, I know Don Rickles. Yep. He just Googled. I did, but I know his face. He's an insult comic. Like Triumph the Insult Comic Dog. It's almost like a badge of honor to be insulted by them. Because the celebrity roasts. Who would, in their right mind, sit up there in front of the dais and just get abused by all these different people and pick apart everything? You have to have thick skin, but it's a sign of appreciation in a way. Okay, a little sidebar. When we did the sponsorship for the Dwight Sullivan clock, and I sent it to Dwight, and I said, I'm only doing this if you do it. I'm not doing it if you don't do it. If you don't do it, it sounds like I'm making fun of you, and I love Dwight Sullivan. So he did it, and he made fun of himself, which I thought was great. So that's the whole kind of joke thing. I'm trying to explain comedy to the fucking guy that is our guest right now in Ryan C. He has no clue how it works, but anyway. So what did Lisa Lampanelli say, Jeff? Her exact words were, and this is her, not me. I only roast the ones I love? I only make fun of the people I love. That's why you'll never hear me talk about the French.
    63:11
    It's a great joke. And I love French people. Does she say funny stuff too? Oh, fuck. She drops more C-bombs than both of us together. So yes. Yeah, I don't know her. She's retired now, but she was gold to me. Anyway, I was going to do Sponsor of the Week, but we just had one. It was called Haggis Pinball. Do we have time for another one?
    63:36
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    64:47
    Marty, I know people are dying to find out Who won the most overrated? They are. They're probably dying to remember what the two games were up against each other. We'll see if Ryan can pick the winner. Okay. So it was Big Bang Bar versus Adam's Family for the most overrated pinball machine of all time. This is out of 64 games chosen by you, the listeners. This is a hard one because they're overrated in completely different ways. So you could go either way. I'll go with Adam's Family, though, just because it's the most popular and the most well-known. I'm sure a bunch of people don't even know what Big Bang Bar is. Would you say that if you had to vote, would that have been your vote, going to Adam's Family? Or that's who you think's going to win?
    65:36
    As I said, it's too hard to actually say it, because Big Bang Bar is actually a cool game in its uniqueness. It's not very good. Adam's Family is easily a better game. But Adam's Family is way more accessible. So I guess Big Bang Bar would win in that case, but I think Adams-Fallon will take the title. Well, it was Big Bang Bar. 70% of the vote went to Big Bang Bar, which means 30% said Adams' family is more overrated than Big Bang Bar. I thought Bruce Nightingale would have called his entire family to vote for Adams' family. He just can't stand that game. We played once at Silver Ball Saloon, and it was a playoff game for the Pinball Profile World Tour event. And it came down to Adam's family. He was either going to be in or out. He owned the place and the machine. He drop-kicked the machine right in the coin box. He kicked it right in the box, so to speak.
    66:34
    He's like, I'm getting rid of this fucking game. And just to let you know the Rochester Pinball Collective does not have an Adam family So it is in a fire heap somewhere I would imagine I find it pretty funny how people have such a hate and disgust for pinball machines that even in competition, they will give up on a pinball machine. And basically, they drive after work to have fun at a pinball comp. Jeff, I think you've done this once where you realize that you're playing a certain game in finals, whatever it is, and then you just forfeit. like i i hate games but i will never i'll just i'll hate the situation because you're playing in a pinball tournament but even even a month ago um before the last lockdown i was playing in a local comp and i don't care i'm going to mention the game because almost everyone hates it rick and morty everyone in the local pinball comp hates it i think it's just because it's brittle and the way it shoots it's it's a home game it's on location it just makes people cry in a competition even more. But someone, after their first ball, they just plunge the balls away and I don't care. Give me a zero on this game. I don't care. I'm not going to, I think the quote was, lower myself to play this game.
    67:45
    So I was like, wow. I've done that. I did it in a, not a flip frenzy, but a match play tournament. And it was a tournament I ran in Denver. It was the Pinball Profile Road Trip, wasn't the tour. And I had to play Ghostbusters against Snow and Helena, who, by the way, probably would have beat me anyway because they're both amazing players. And the name came up in Ghostbusters. I'm like, I'm good. I don't want to play this. It just would upset me. And I didn't. I might have played a ball. Yeah, okay. Have you ever done that, Marty? No, never. Never, ever. I've obviously been in a situation where I've been playing a game where I've absolutely hated playing it. But no, I've never forfeited a game. I don't know. I wouldn't want somebody else to do that to me either. I've only done it once. I did regret it, but I just didn't care. I wanted to talk to other people. My wife was there. I was just like, I'm good. I really don't want to play this game. And I just interviewed Carlos de la Cerda, Lazerlos, from Twitch on Pinball Profile, and we talked specifically about what you just mentioned, Ryan. And he said he has those games too. But when he goes to a competition, he plays those games first. He practices on those games, the ones he hates, so that it lowers his expectations. You know, he's already got the lowest expectations when he plays it. Now everything will be either, you know, gravy. Everything's going to be better once he plays it because it can't get any lower. So I think that's a great suggestion for competitive players. Yeah, yeah. But you know pinball's a mental game. So I think if you're going into a machine and it is bumming you out so bad, you probably are better off just walking away from it, regrouping, getting to the next game rather than letting something just really tip you over the edge. And I know that some games can do that. It's mental both ways because I went to a tournament and a lot of times in playoffs, you play three games and there's that format where there's four players. The winner gets four points. Second place gets two points. Third gets one and the loser gets zero. and the three games in my bank were all games I owned. I was like, before I even flipped, I thought, okay, I've got this. I've won. I'm sure I came dead last in every game. So it works both ways too. As opposed to being discouraged, I was overconfident. So you really just have to block it all out and it's not one of my strengths. The great players can do that.
    70:11
    Interesting. I've got a question for Ryan. How's Jessie J? She's good. She has a knack for escaping the state right before we go into lockdown. I know. She just knows. She can smell it in the air. She can have a sixth sense. There's a couple of cases and she's just like, see you later, and she'll just skip the state. The Jessie J's Pimple Adventures is still a thing. It's not cancelled, but it's never going to be a bi-weekly, fortnightly show. It'll be like once a quarter or something. so just whenever we can both do it so it's not going to be about current information or anything it'll just be when we can both pick up the mic and she is extremely busy possibly, yeah, there's some life updates that she will, you know, I'm in the position to divulge so I guess next time we have an episode she'll update on everyone on what's been going on Awesome I was asking because I hadn't seen an episode for some time Yeah, it'll happen Hope so, it's good Yeah, it's one of my favourites So please make sure it happens again. Thank you. Marty, you and I, we both liked it because it did remind us of when Mrs. Pin first got into pinball and just that kind of eyes wide open, every aspect of pinball and questioning this and that. And it's refreshing because we've all been there. We're just a little removed from it, but it was fun. And it was kind of like a callback for me too. And just the genuine excitement of Mrs. Pin and Jesse J. So yeah, I hope it happens again. So, Jesse, if you're listening, we want you back. Jess is the type of girl who is kind of good at everything that she does. So she actually is a very, very good pinball player already. And I kind of have no doubt she'll be kind of Australia's best female player once she's able to kind of prove that in competition play. And, yeah, she's really into it. She has a Led Zeppelin in her home at the moment. So there you go, Jeff. Something that you have in common with her. It's a fun game. I was worried about the layout, but the more I play it, the more intense it gets. Because you can cradle up. It is not beneficial to cradle up. So it's just go, go, go. Because as the songs keep going, that's less time for you to complete the songs and jackpots and everything else. So it's a workout. And the games are long. But my goodness, I can only do about two or three games and I'm spent. It's fun. It makes you go back. So I'm sure she's having that same kind of enjoyment. Have you played one yet, Monty? Which one? Led Zeppelin. No, because the only one I knew was, it went to Pixel Alley, and then I think they took it out. Is that right? I think there was rumours it was Pixel Alley. I'm not sure if it was ever there, but I don't know. Yeah, no, I'm yet to play it. Have you played it right? No. I don't know anyone who has one, so... No, same. I mean, I just received from Stern my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles... What do they call it when you have your first tournament? the launch party pack, which is great. I know some people were bagging it, but hey, if pinball machines came out and Stern wants to support the pinball industry by giving everyone free stuff to give away to attract people into pinball, oh my gosh, like, amazing. I love Stern for doing that, and I don't think people give it enough of a shout-out. Like, Stern spend more money than anyone in the pinball industry promoting pinball. All right, let me say that again. Stern spend more money than anyone else promoting pinball, which is the hobby that we love.
    73:45
    So we got to give him kudos for that. No question. I think it's good. Now, this is something you can participate in. We decided we were going to do another poll. Now that the most overrated is done and Big Bang Bar was the winner over Adam's family, what is our next final round poll? We thought we might do, what's the best wizard mode? And we've asked a few people. We asked Ed Roberts and we asked Carl D'Angelo. I think off-air we might have asked Bruce and Ron. The problem is, not everybody's been to a wizard mode, so maybe it's not the best one.
    74:15
    Which of the one wizard mode that you got to is the one that you like the most? It is a good point, and Marty kind of corrected me on that. So we're going to wrap it up right now. The winner is whatever Ryan says. Ryan, the best wizard mode in pinball. What? You get it? Does it have to be the final wizard mode? No. Or could it be a mini wizard mode? No, no. So it's going to be the Simpsons one for you, isn't it? Simpsons is very close. What, Alien Invasion? Yeah, Alien Invasion. I think it's just the fact that the pinball machine can do it because of the layout and the hardware is just amazing. But I want to talk about Melting the Witch on Wizard of Oz, which after you do it a thousand times, you don't give a shit about. But the way that the pinball machine makes your heart pump out of your chest the first time you do it, I think I haven't felt that way in other machines because I don't know how much the shot is worth. I don't really know what I was meant to do. It was just kind of like all one color, shoot these four shots and then shoot one ball here. And then the way it kind of it demands all of your attention. And it's only until you know what you're doing that you don't care about it but that the first until you actually melt the witch it is such an amazing moment in pinball ryan funny you should say that i remember the very first time i played wizard of oz was actually up in newcastle at a pub and i probably played three games and i was like i don't get it and then this one game i got to kill well i got to kill the witch i didn't actually kill it but i got to that mode where it all went green and all that kind of stuff and i went oh my god and i bought the game the next day it's a true story yeah i mean i because it was from that moment hmm funny ryan and marty both games coded by keith johnson and made by joe balser yeah i didn't say it's my favorite no my favorite wizard mode is final battle on avatar Really? I don't know it. Because it's just a really, it's a, I don't know, it's a simple rule. So you've got to hit the shots and then you've got to hit this one last shot. And when you hit that last shot, it adds a ball. Rinse and repeat, right? But it's just fun. And it's one of those, you know, can I get that last shot just in time? And it's a fun whistleblower. And it's not, I mean, it's not easy, but it's not that difficult to get to Final Battle on Avatar. I would have said before the code update and before it took less shots to do it, I would have said Metallica and crank it up. So not even end of the line, just crank it up. Again, single ball, risk reward. Which one though, Jeff? Because they are completely different. All four of them are so different in what you need to do. Well, it depends if you have the premium or pro too, right? Yeah. If you're pro, you go who the bounce holes. Yeah, because you get spinners. But it's neither of those. and it's definitely been reassured to me since the pandemic started it's encore it's acdc it's lyman's unbelievable wizard mode which i've been able to do i think four times now and it's just as exciting every single time and uh it makes you come back so that would have received my vote yeah i think in recent times i think the escape nublar in jurassic park is a fantastic wizard mode I also think that Horde in Walking Dead is a fantastic wizard mode too So we'll move on from best wizard modes But the funny thing you're saying about Nublar Does the fact that you can do that right from the start in that special mode Does that take something away from it? Well, I would never have seen it otherwise Well, most people wouldn't have seen it otherwise So, yeah It's like I get to mention, hey, it's a really good wizard mode Because I got to play it from the start Ghostbusters, you can do the, what is it, the god one? What is it? Yeah, are you a god, but there's some mode before that, which gets you to, are you a god, is that right? Ryan knows that stuff. I don't know. But again, we're going to move on from wizard modes. We're going to do something that I think everyone can relate, and we might even be able to do 32 of these. Boy, that's going to be a fun poll. 32 is the magic number, isn't it, Marty? Is it 32 or 16? What's the maximum? 16 gets us a nice poll, but if we can get to 32, even better. We need your help, listener. Marty, Ryan, you can even add a few here. The next poll on final round. What is the best multiball?
    78:50
    Ryan, you can give us a few choices right now. I want to give a shout out to Gravemarker Multiball in Metallica, which no one seems to give a shit about. But I, after playing thousands of games, finally realized that when the ball is being captured there, it's a risk-reward of shooting as many jackpots as you can before you knock the ball out, and it exponentially increases your super jackpot. Because when people lock a ball in there during that multiball, usually you're just like, all right, I'm just going to hit the ball out for the super. But it's a risk-reward thing that's time-based that you can hit as many shots as you can before it starts to count you down, and then you have to hit the ball out. It's still not worth crazy amounts, but I know probably no one's going to mention that multiball, so I'll give it a bit of a shout out. Mark it down, Marty. Yep. Instantly forgotten.
    79:45
    I'll give you another one. I do like that. I'll give you another one. Just the normal multiball on... Actually, you know what? Both multiballs on Whitewater are just fun because it's all about the coordination and you can't really fuck it up. And I've seen people play whirlpool multiball perfectly where they get a ball in, they post pass, they trap up when they kick out it really depends on the kick out but of course the normal multi-ball where it stages the three balls perfectly for you so nothing except yourself is in charge of hitting that ramp three times in a row to lock in triple jackpots for the rest of the multi-ball so you really have to three flips to determine what your jackpots are going to be and there's a big difference between you know whatever you know 16 million, depending on what raft you're on, to triple that. I love that multi-ball. I love Whitewater too. Such a fun game. Do you have one, Marty? I know that Ryan will appreciate this because I'm pretty sure he was there when I showed my favorite moment in a multi-ball. And that is ACDC jam multi-ball. You know, don't you, Ryan? Yeah, when you were just hitting the shots, crisscrossing the ramps. Because it's just so simple. you've just got to do the ramp so when you've got particularly when you go down to two balls and you just go left right bang bang bang bang bang bang bang oh my god it feels so good jeff do you um i know you've got you've had acdc for a long time and you always mention i need an instruction card on how to add a ball drink multi-ball do you understand the rule it is true by the way no one it a shit bullshit i can i got lots of good feedback okay do you know the rule mr yellow card rule nuances in album multiball for acdc because someone has tried to explain it to me in the past and i'm just like i'm never gonna understand this rule i know it well it has to do with the order when the albums came out yes is that correct marty correct to me by the way i never care about that at all you should no the only thing i care about an album multiball is tnt Yeah, well, that's right, because if you are in the TNT mode when you get to album multiple, you are going to get the bonus earlier because TNT is an early track. Yeah, that's the only thing I care about. As far as going in the order, who cares? The jackpots aren't big enough for me and for the risk-reward. Just do TNT when you do album multiple. That's all you need to know. Can someone explain the rules for me? Yeah, okay. So every jackpot that you get will flash up an album on the screen, right? On the DMD. It's like completing a drop target or target bank, yeah. Yep. It'll bring up an album. So you know how there's the song jackpot, right? Which is in lanes and then the cannon. When the album comes up, that is the song that you are playing is on that album, you get a bonus song jackpot. doesn't have something to do with you finishing a song? Like if you don't have to... Ray Day is going to write in because Ray Day was all over me about this too. Again, the TNT thing too is just the best way to describe it. It's double dipping, right? The song jackpot, you hit it, it goes down with the album. Anyway, it's such a great code. When you cash in the song jackpot, the value of it goes down. When you get it this way, it doesn't decrease. That's why. Yep. So that's why if you've got our album multi-ball lit, try and get to the jukebox, change your track to TNT, because it displays those albums in chronological order from when they were released. So the older the track that you're playing, the earlier that album is going to come up. Isn't it funny how there's such real nuances to, I mean, that's something that's not on instruction cards, Jeff, even Little Deadpool. That's deep, though. At a ball's not that deep. I hardly see anyone, and maybe because it's not really worth it, but people don't usually know how to play Little Deadpool multiball. They're just like, well, I just hit Little Deadpool, right? It's like, no, first you hit him to a certain degree, and then it opened up the shots, then you hit there. Then you lock a ball in Little Deadpool, and then you have, like, 30 seconds to smash a spinner, and the spinner, like, each spin is like a little mini jackpot. There's all, like, there are, Stern has so many amazing multiballs, but they're not really obvious. unless you sit there and read the screen. There's no call-outs in Little Deadpool that says, like, now hit the spinner, now lock a ball in this. So, I don't know, in the heat of the moment, unless you have someone there telling you what to do, I think some of these... It's all there for your eyes and ears if you have Colin McAlpine on speed dial. So it's all there. That is true. Well, thanks for asking, guys, what my favorite multiball is. I'll tell you. Daft Punk multiball on Tron. Only available on the LE. Oh, my gosh. That is the worst multiball I've ever played. Horrible. Duff Punk. No. Rubbish. The worst multiball is Creature from the Blood. No. That is one of the greatest. No. It's one of the shittiest ones. The worst is Couch Multiball. Simpsons. Terrible. No. Because it's... Well, the reason I don't like Creature is because it's guesswork. Where is the Creature? Oh, there he is. It took me a few shots to find it. And then how many shots around that spelling Creature takes forever and ever. Get it in the pops. just the effort to start the multiball, screw it. Just move your car all day. That's how you win that game. I mean, Creature's got a bad multiball. There, I said it. Okay. What's the one that you like, though? I don't know if it's my favorite, but I really do like it. I enjoy playing Game of Thrones on the Pro. I like that multiball a lot. You know, hitting the log or whatever it is. Is it a log? What is it in the middle there? Just the super jackpots? The battering ram? What is that thing? The battering ram. Okay, a battering ram is a log. what's the giggler doing I'm just that's a log that's what you drop off in the toilet Jeff every time you call me I find that one fun there was another one that I just fucking totally love the multiball get away high speed 2 amazing I mean every 90s game people are gonna submit surely like the multiballs on those games I know it's usually just like one shot but it's just fun like even like no fear you have to do like three different things and then you have to hit the... I don't like it. You don't like it? No, and I own the game. I definitely don't like that multiball. Again, I can get better points doing... Again, this is from a competitive side. I can get better points doing other things than that multiball. Because if you don't get the last one, it's all for naught. It's like the same thing with Creature. Well, then why do you like the one in Game of Thrones? It's not worth that much either. Super jackpots aren't worth that much compared to like a... If you do a multiball and don't get some supers, that's a waste of multiball. I don't know if I can give you my favorite. I did mention this earlier. There is a sweet spot of multiballs, and anything over three I find distracting. I get why there's six on something like cherry multiball, and it's 60 seconds of ball save. Okay, that's fine, but it's difficult to make shots because balls get in the way. It's what's driving me nuts on Led Zeppelin is when electric magic comes up, that gets in the way. But when you're in multiball and something like top of the charts, if there are too many balls, you can't make any shots because balls are in the way. So three is kind of the, you know, hopefully you can cradle one, maybe cradle two, and then just shoot with one flipper. Carl D'Angelo is a pro at that. And I've seen some really exciting ones on Guns of Roses when he plays that. But I'll have to think about it. We would like your feedback. Can I add another one? Megsuit multiball. I don't know why. Every time I get Megsuit multiball, I'm so happy, regardless of how many jackpots I hit in it. I just love the start of the multiball. I know that every shot's going to be worth at least $5 million. And you know you're at a sweet spot in the game. Like, okay, I've collected enough weapons. It's go time. I can just have fun playing this multiball. Deadpool's a great game. That's what everyone says, Jeff.
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    But multiball's also a good one because farts. Hilarious. Two towers multiball. Ah, there are so many. Well, this will be interesting. We'll get a lot of feedback from this. Yes, reach out to us, everybody, at finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Nominate your favorite multiball. All right, it's late here. It's the night after pin clash. It is 2.30 in the morning right now, so if I'm slurring my words or it sounds like I have a Canadian accent, that is why. We will do this again in another Fortnite, which I didn't realize until Dr. John mentioned it on the pin class thing. Fortnite is short for 14 nights. I didn't know that. There you go. The things you know. Ryan, hope to hear from you soon with Jesse Jays, and good to talk to you again. No more text pictures, please. I'm good. I've got lots. Thank you. you can subscribe to my if you want to see what Jeff was talking about subscribe to my OnlyFans it's OnlyFans.com forward slash Ryan's Little Picker alright thanks everybody for listening we will speak to you again soon