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Episode 199 - Discussion Corner

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 9m·analyzed·Aug 6, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Pinball industry news roundup with last calls for Elwyn designs and personnel updates at Stern/Multimorphic.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers Podcast Episode 199 is a casual discussion-focused episode where hosts Dennis and Tony cover several pinball industry news items including last calls for Elwyn games (Avengers Affinity Quest, Iron Maiden), Zombie Yeti official hiring at Stern Pinball, Nick Baldrige joining Multimorphic as customer support, HomePen's Spinal Tap production launch, and rumors of Animal House pinball licensing. The hosts also discuss Dennis's job transition and competitive pinball participation decline due to time constraints rather than skill concerns.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball has issued last call for Avengers Affinity Quest and Iron Maiden pinball machines

    high confidence · Hosts confirmed this as official news from Stern's distribution network; both are Elwyn designs

  • Zombie Yeti (Jeremy Packer) has been officially hired as an employee by Stern Pinball after working under contract

    high confidence · Hosts stated as official news; noted he's been working under contract for a long time, has art director Greg Ferrer overseeing

  • Nick Baldrige joined Multimorphic Pinball as official customer support representative

    high confidence · Announced by Multimorphic; hosts note this formalizes his existing volunteer-like support role

  • HomePen's Spinal Tap machines previously in the wild (Vegas Hall of Fame) are all prototypes; regular production shipping should begin in approximately one week

    high confidence · Clarified by Mike (HomePen owner) on Aussie Pinball Podcast interview with Dr. John

  • Animal House movie is now tagged for pinball licensing

    medium confidence · Host saw this mentioned on what he believes was Nap Arcade source but doesn't have the link; speculation that HomePen might develop it

  • Elwyn has had a game leaving production schedule for the first time; Iron Maiden was his first design

    high confidence · Hosts provide context that Elwyn's games have stayed in production longer than most designers; Iron Maiden followed by Jurassic Park, then Avengers as third

Notable Quotes

  • “Even saying all that aside, I'd never – could you have been in the NBA? Have you practiced and practiced and practiced? I'm like, do you see how tall I am?”

    Dennis (Eclectic Gamers host) @ ~1:06:00 — Illustrates Dennis's realistic perspective on skill development limitations; relates to his earlier comments about competitive pinball

  • “I just thought about driving up 30 minutes to the 403 Club, not getting my tacos because I do well enough that it's going to push close to nine possibly... And I'm just kind of like, no, I don't think I'll go today. I'd rather be lazy.”

    Dennis @ ~1:03:30 — Explains his reduced competitive pinball participation; time investment vs. reward calculation more important than skill concerns

  • “His art packages are loved. Even the ones that are the most criticized are still seen as some of the highest level work that pinball has ever seen.”

    Dennis @ ~0:16:00 — Assessment of Zombie Yeti's artistic contributions and why Stern's hiring makes strategic sense

  • “He's probably forgotten more about pinball than I will ever know... he's pretty much the would be the premier third party developer for the Multimorphic System”

    Dennis @ ~0:28:00 — High regard for Nick Baldrige's technical expertise and position within P3 third-party development ecosystem

  • “I'm not surprised that avengers would be the first because also his lowest rated right... iron maiden though it's been so long as his first right that's what's that's the shocking part”

    Tony (Eclectic Gamers host) @ ~0:12:00 — Commentary on Elwyn's game reception and longevity; Iron Maiden's persistence in production unusual given its age

Entities

Eclectic Gamers PodcastorganizationDennispersonTonypersonJeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti)personElwynpersonNick BaldrigepersonGreg FerrerpersonMike (HomePen owner)personStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Dennis receives fan encouragement regarding competitive pinball abilities but clarifies his reduced participation stems from time investment concerns rather than skill doubts; reflects broader lifestyle prioritization shift

    high · Email from Shannon B. with inspirational message; Dennis's detailed explanation of tournament time cost vs. reward calculation

  • $

    market_signal: Animal House pinball potential licensing raises questions about nostalgia-IP strategy viability; hosts skeptical about market appeal despite recognizing cultural significance and potential fan base

    medium · Host analysis: 'Animal House would make a good pinball machine... Nostalgia button... don't know how well it would actually do nowadays... I don't see it personally'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Nick Baldrige joins Multimorphic Pinball as official customer support representative; formalizes volunteer-style role while maintaining independent game development via For Amusement Only Games

    high · Announced by Multimorphic; hosts characterize as logical formalization of existing support work

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) officially hired by Stern Pinball as employee after extended contract work; formalizes artistic collaboration and potentially restricts other manufacturer opportunities

    high · Hosts confirmed as official news; noted he transitions from contract to employee status under art director Greg Ferrer

  • ?

    product_strategy: HomePen Spinal Tap production launch delayed significantly; all machines in wild (including Vegas Hall of Fame) are prototypes; regular production shipping starting ~one week from episode air date

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.207

0:00
welcome to the eclectic gamers podcast today is sunday august 6th this is the 6th the 5th 6th The sixth. The episode 199.
0:27
Almost there. Just about. I don't know. Are we doing anything for episode 200? I don't know. We have the new little art package we can do. Yes, yes. We'll talk about that at episode 200, I think. So I think that'll be fun. Yeah. That's pretty much it. You know, we don't do things like asking for clip comments and stuff. We don't. We're very tired. We've been at this a long time. We're just a couple of old men just kind of getting done. So have you done anything the last couple of weeks other than sitting in your rocking chair and rock?
1:03
No. I feared that. I say that. It's been busy, but nothing interesting. I mean, how life is sometimes where you're constantly doing stuff, but it's like nobody actually cares about working around the house or work or whatever. It's just been – They might care. Probably not. But they might. No. It's been the normal – let's call it normal day-to-day type stuff at a higher level than normal.
1:37
Well, game-wise, I've been mostly playing Puzzle Quest III over the last couple of weeks. I did get through the – I believe, based off of – I've seen the credits twice. It's the second part of the trilogy of Phoenix Wright. But I haven't started the new section yet. You haven't started the new one? The second one was just like one giant case, and it just took a lot out of me. Because I kept thinking, I'm going to get through this tonight. And then I didn't. And then I had to do little chunks. And I have started Resident Evil 3, but I'm not very far in that. And I figured, you know what? Let me finish Phoenix first. But I've been chugging along in the Puzzle Quest story. So I actually yesterday wrapped up Chapter 11. so I thought maybe there were only 10 chapters I know they keep adding stuff to it but I wasn't sure exactly how far along I would go so anyway they currently have 43 chapters they probably do and they keep adding these new other things which sometimes I go with but it depends where my I have to look at where my gear's at to see if it's something I can actually do or not or if I just get owned but part of the problem is it assumes clearly that I'd be further in the story for some of that stuff so even though my gear level is actually easier than continuing the main story. I don't know half the characters they're showing me that are supposed to be in my party, apparently, but I haven't met them yet.
Multimorphic Pinball
company
HomePencompany
For Amusement Only Gamescompany
Pinball Hall of Fame (Las Vegas)organization
Shannon B.person
David Dennisperson
Dr. Johnperson
Iron Maiden (pinball game)game
Avengers Affinity Quest (pinball game)game
Spinal Tap (pinball game)game
Animal House (rumored pinball game)game
Foo Fighters (pinball game)game
Venom (pinball game)game
403 Cluborganization

high · Clarified by HomePen owner Mike on Aussie Pinball Podcast; hosts express surprise at prototype-only status until now

  • ?

    product_strategy: Elwyn's design portfolio experiencing first production cycle completions; Iron Maiden and Avengers Affinity Quest receiving last calls from Stern, signaling designer rotation and game lifecycle management

    high · Official last call announcement from Stern distribution network; hosts note Iron Maiden's extended production run (first design) as unusual

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Animal House (1970s comedy film) now tagged for pinball licensing; potential HomePen development speculated based on company's nostalgia-IP preference (Spinal Tap, Thunderbirds)

    medium · Host saw announcement (source uncertain, possibly Nap Arcade) but lacks direct link; licensing confirmed as tagged

    • 2:52
    Basically, every chapter so far in the main story gets you a new companion, which is part of the dialogue between the battles and stuff. And you have a... It's the stuff you just skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. No, no, I read it. I read it because it's like three sentences. I mean, this is like... Right. They got to drag it all out. So this is like, here's a couple of lines of text. And now here have two fights that will take, you know, eight minutes. And then here's another set of texts that will take you to 15 seconds to read. And then here's another fight. It's not like when you get to the end of an RPG and you're like, you don't know why you're fighting the big bad or why is the big bad? Because you've just skipped everything up to that point. You're just like, whatever. Let's go. I've never really I was going to say never been that bad. There have been a couple of games, but not RPGs where they there is a story. And I realize that the story is quite stupid and I do start skipping it. But generally I don't do that.
    3:42
    And a lot of times I don't even finish those games because I just all of a sudden – like the story was bad and they must have thought there was a reason to put the story in. And a lot of times that reason, in my opinion, is that the mechanic is bad too. So then if you're not enjoying the story and the game isn't fun on a mechanical level, there's no reason to continue the journey. You're on your 12th really poor escort mission in a row. Yeah, things like that. Um, so, and then, uh, not related to pinball and video games, but, uh, hopefully won't be too disruptive to us on the podcast, but I, uh, submitted my notice of resignation from my job. So my last day will be the end of this month and I'm starting a new job in September. So that will be a big shakeup because I've been with the association that I'm at for getting close to four and a half years at this point. But I thought it was – there was an opening that I thought was a good opportunity, and it worked out. And I think it would be a good change for me. I'll be based a lot closer. I've always – professionally, I've always been based like 60 miles away is where my official office is. Now you're based in your bedroom because it's OnlyFans.
    4:52
    I don't want to make too much money. So, yeah, that's why I'm like – you've got to stay humble. You don't want hubris.
    5:00
    So, anyway. So, yeah, no, the office here is like a mile and a half away for this job. So getting obviously I've been thus I told my governing board and the membership of the association this week. And so I'm trying to set everything up to basically they have a month's notice. But there's a lot to do like this is a small organization. So there's a lot to do to try and get everything ready for if they aren't ready to onboard someone when I leave. I'm hoping at the very least they might have a candidate picked or if not that I want to leave as many pieces to help. Like, I don't want them to be in the boat. I was I was I really struggled when I came in and I there was even someone with institutional knowledge. And I know the person who my predecessor and I didn't want to be overly bothersome with them. But there are just a lot of pieces like what do you need to do like every month? What sort of things are part of your main planning for the year? like I'm writing a guide to all that because I didn't have anything like that. And it was, so I just kind of had to spend the whole first year learning what the pattern was. And then I was able to, you know, focus on where I wanted to make changes and, and where I wanted to keep that pattern going. So I'm trying to let everyone know, like, here are the contracts that are coming up. Here are your main sources of revenue. Here are the deadlines that you need to start thinking about for moving all of these things forward. Here's how the reporting works. It's actually not that long of a document. I'm not hitting every single thing, but I've been spending a lot of time with that. We have a continuity document that we keep updated. Yeah, a lot of larger organizations do, and it's smart to have something where – I already maintained a list of key logins and stuff because if something happens to me, people need to be able to get in. The board needs to be able to get in and change the bank accounts and all of that sort of stuff. So I already have that for myself and my one other employee. Like I say, make sure you maintain this because you don't want to do it when you're getting ready to leave. You want to just always have it. But we don't really have anything that explains a lot of the duties. At least I couldn't find anything in the historical record of our cloud storage. So I was like, I'll just write one. It's not been too bad to do. But every time I think of something, I have to go back in, update that. And then we've already started the job search. So and I think as of Friday, we have 16 applications in because I'm organizing those. I'm actually writing my thoughts on like the pros and cons just based off the resumes so that we actually have a meeting in a couple of days with me and the executive committee to start winnowing that down to who they want to offer first interview options to.
    7:43
    Unfortunately, a lot of the applications, in my view, aren't really good fits. so I don't know how many they'll want to interview. But again, it's posted on – my assistant posted it on LinkedIn. That's where a lot of the less quality – it's kind of mean to say, but I think a lot of people just have their resume stored, and they're just like, oh, that sounds neat. And they fire off something. It's nothing like, oh, it's someone who didn't graduate high school applying for the job, for example. It's not like that. And we keep the – and maybe I shouldn't have done that, but we do keep the bare minimum requirements pretty limited. I've kept them the same as it was when I applied, and it's actually – you read it, and you'll be like, wow, this job – this application job description is like written for – it sounds like it's written for an organization that really struggles to find someone because it seems like really, really mild. But I restructured it and enhanced it with a lot of preferred stuff, and so I'm judging these off of the preferred list. So pretty much everyone has something that is in the preferred list, but the preferred list of skills is like a half dozen items, and I don't think there's anyone that has all of them, which is not surprising because it's such a weird hodgepodge of work. It would be very difficult to meet all of those expectations. But anyway, keeping me busy, but obviously not too busy to do this recording today.
    9:07
    That works. Yes. Definitely going to be good luck to you. That'll be an interesting change. Yeah. Hopefully they still like me after a few weeks of putting up with me. I've never worked for an organization this large. I've always been with small entities with less than 10 FTE. So this is going to be very, very – because this is a couple hundred, I think. So it's going to be very different for me. It will be very different. I'll be back in government, though, just like you. Just like me. You're a member of the government. That's right. Except for you'll be the popular side of government. You're the side they throw money at as opposed to me where they just don't. Well, most people, like the public, doesn't hate what you do. There's a faction that's bought into the misinformation on public health. Right, right. You have a faction that hates what you do, but they still send you money where my side is just like, we don't want to think about that. It's important, but I'm sure they're fine. They don't need budget or money or anything. But your system operates off of a fee model, right? So that's like where your income comes from a dedicated. It comes from a dedicated fee. See, you have a fee for service. We do have a fee for service, and we're really lucky that it comes from a fee for service. It's just too bad that the fee for service does not necessarily reflect the realities of costs in this day and age. Yes. Well, that's often a challenge. and uh no my my understanding is they're probably similar challenges uh for the for the organization that i'm joining there is a difference i suppose in that there have been some significant gains on the state side for funding uh but that's because i got those for everyone in the state which might have helped with the interview i didn't ask that's why during the interview you just opened the interview with the song you're welcome from alana i i i did resist saying you're welcome but i did discuss the finance because it was probably my biggest uh contributions that a lot of departments would have uh recognized uh because um i mean it was especially in a in a organization as large as this one they got i mean they got a lot they get more than double what they got three years ago right so it's been pretty significant uh speaking of significance unfortunately pinball uh we don't like have a new game to talk about or anything we we did venom on the last episode. So I do have a discussion topic for us, but I do want to go ahead and just sort of quickly tear through some of the news items just for folks that are, for whatever reason, turning to us for the kind of current events thing. Just like we do with video games. So let's do some quick, almost a coast-to-coast Nate, five fast thoughts, even though I only have four items. And they're not necessarily going to be fast. Not necessarily, but I think they'll be pretty quick. So first thing I wanted to note is Stern Pinball has issued to their distribution network their last call for avengers affinity quest and the iron maiden pinball machines these are both uh elwyn designs iron maiden was his first game that he ever developed and then i believe avengers was his third i believe he did jurassic park after iron maiden i think is the order and then eventually anyway so those two are our last calls if you want to uh try and get in an order for a new in box and it's noteworthy only in that elwynn's obviously been designing for a few years now and this is just it had to come at some point but interestingly this is the first time he's had a game leaving the production schedule i'm actually surprised by that i'm surprised i'm also surprised these two games didn't leave the production schedule before this uh i i've been surprised at how strong all of his games are relatively popular so i i do understand that they weren't like uh led zeppelin which is kind of right go away in the blink of a eye and no one cared uh so in that regard i i'm not surprised at this stage that these would be going i'm also not i'm not surprised that avengers would be the first because also his lowest rated right and actually probably not probably it's the one of his i played that i like the least as well so that isn't i still enjoy it but i like i'd never buy it uh iron maiden though it's been so long as his first right that's what's that's the shocking part that's the one that i i just surprised me uh theme yes the biggest reason i've heard people that don't want the game is because they don't like that it's iron maiden right which again yeah that's how themes are uh so okay so anyway just interesting piece of information there another Another interesting Stern-oriented piece of information, Jeremy Packer, also known as Zombie Yeti, the artist, he's actually been officially hired by Stern Pinball. He's been working under contract for a very long time, which is not unusual for pinball to do with artists because a lot of times, how do they keep them busy enough? They have an art director who's been on staff at Stern for a long time. I believe that's Greg Ferrer's. But I'm not shocked at this news. It feels like we basically just, I know it's not 100% true, but it's very easy, especially when we have back-to-back games like Foo Fighters and Venom. It sometimes feels like there's been a lot of Zombie Yeti art saturation coming out of Stern. Well, as I recall, he took a break from pinball for a while, a short time, and then came back.
    14:24
    You know, I don't know well enough about his, the schedule changes, like the order of games change. He's had a couple instances where he's had back-to-back games, and I always find that a little weird. But I know the schedule changes on the games, and then I think he kind of is a victim to that change because the decision doesn't seem to be based off of the art. So, for example, we see Venom and Foo being back-to-back, and there was another instance, I think it might have been – was it Avengers and Turtles or something that was back-to-back, and he did both of those art packages? I don't remember anymore, but things like that. Right. So, yeah, it's been it's been an interesting road, I think, for him. But but, you know, congratulations to him. Obviously, his art packages are loved. Even the ones that are the most criticized are still seen as as some of the highest level work that pinball has ever seen. And so this this is a logical move, I think, on Stern's part to go ahead and lock him in and not especially if they have him as an employee. I'm sure they are able to ensure that his art isn't on other pinball machines moving forward. not that it really has i mean obviously his first game he was going to have art for conceptually was a zidware game from j-pop but that never happened for reasons that we will not get into on this episode because that is ancient history and i i need to brush up and that is it where you could have a whole history episode that should be a silver ball chronicles episode they need to do an episode on the history of zidware they might as well it's done so they can right they can go We've talked about it enough times in the past. At least I've already done one I've already forgot about. I don't think they did, though. Anyway, doesn't matter. Next piece of news. Nick Baldrige, host of For Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast, if I remember the long name right. It's been a long time since I've said that whole mouthful. Yeah. He's also developed a number of games. He has For Amusement Only Games at this point, which is the company he established, and he sells his module drained for the P3 system under. Well, it was announced by Multimorphic Pinball that Nick has joined them officially as a customer support representative. So he is now, I guess, an official Multimorphic team member, and he will be helping people with support issues that call in and ask for help. So congratulations. Yeah. I think he was already helping a lot of people. So, again, this is probably a logical step to go ahead and have. I mean, Nick is one of the most intelligent people I know in pinball. he's probably forgotten more about pinball than I will ever know for example and so in that regard I think it makes a lot of sense I think it's pretty safe to say he's pretty much the would be the premier third party developer for the Multimorphic System you know his work is more interesting to me than the I trying to think there haven been a lot of other third part like when there was a there was a game early on in the p3s life cycle that a third party i don remember what it was is that that pitch and bat style game i think is what it was i don't remember the name of it um and i don't know which is sold better that one had years worth of head start so it depends how we think of the of the word premiere um but what i do think of is he's definitely the most prolific third party because he's got uh silver what silver falls he has uh the drained one which is his own module he has ranger in the ruins uh and then i won't count his one-off quest for glory because no one can have that but him because of licensing so he's got multiple uh titles at this point so in that regard uh definitely the most prolific and my assumption based off of how this write-up is is any more game development that happens i mean he spooled up for amusement only games i i i'm guessing i haven't asked nick this but i think it would be a safe uh assumption that he'll continue to develop third party when it comes to game development this is very much just a customer service uh employment contract sort of thing where he'll and i think they think they went in more details like uh what times he's available I think it's more of an after hours time when a lot of people are home anyway to outside of the – what you'd think of as normal office hours. Like he's covering a set sort of – because they already had customer support. Like Multimorphic doesn't – wasn't operating without any customer support. This is just an enhancement to their team. So congratulations to him on that. And our last piece of news, HomePen.
    18:56
    There was a statement about the shipping of Spinal Tap. And Spinal Tap is a little confusing because we've already talked about, well, Spinal Tap is in the wild already. Like the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas has Spinal Tap. Right. Technically, and this was sort of clarified, I guess, by Mike, the owner of Home Pin, on an episode of the Aussie Pinball Podcast that Dr. John did as an interview with Mike. All of those games of Spinal Tap that are out are technically all prototypes, which I did not know originally. But that's how Mike views it is those were shipped prototypes. No one else has gotten it. Like those have been out and then there have been no more that have been shipped. And approximately this was I saw this a few days ago at this point in about a week. According to Mike, there should be the shipping of the regular production game should start in about a week from now from when people hear this episode. So I mean, congratulations to them finally getting to that point.
    19:51
    I don't have this in our internal notes, Tony, but there I saw. I think it was probably Nap Arcade. I don't have the link to this because I wasn't planning to bring it up until this just came across my mind. But there was talk that apparently the movie Animal House theme is now tagged for a license for pinball. And I thought if any company was going to try and do Animal House, it would be up Home Pin's Alley given the choice of Spinal Tap. Yeah, I can see that. And Thunderbirds, both very old titles, well past their prime. Right. Do you think, just as a quick aside, do you think Animal House would make a good pinball machine?
    20:30
    It is definitely what you would call a nostalgia button game. That would be for sure. But Animal House is one of those really popular movies from back in the day that I don't know how well it would actually do nowadays. like Revenge of the Nerds and all those other movies that were super popular in the 80s. Porky's. I don't really see a place for a lot of those. Now, to be fair, Animal House isn't as bad as those two.
    21:00
    I'd say there's stronger nostalgia for Animal House. But it's definitely, I don't know. I don't see it personally, but a lot of games come out that I don't see where the draw is. Yeah, I watched – I mean I saw Animal House probably when I was in high school. Right. And it just – it didn't latch on – like I wasn't as entertained by it as some other people that have kind of raised it to cult status. And maybe that's because I didn't go in with this huge fondness for Belushi, which carries – Right. Because I didn't see a lot of it. Like I didn't know him from Saturday Night Live or anything. I don't have that. It didn't have the same background like I would with like a Dana Carvey movie because I remember seeing Dana Carvey on TV as a comedian and things like that. So for me, absolutely not. As a license, yeah, it definitely pushes a nostalgia button. But quite bluntly, if HomePen's doing it, I don't think it moves units. Well, no. So it's kind of moot. I mean, again, we don't know who's doing it, but that's the guess. My guess. All right. Moving on. Before our discussion topic, we have an email that came into the – this actually came pretty shortly after our last episode. So I've been sitting on this one for a little bit, but obviously we haven't recorded until this episode. Okay. So this is from Shannon B., and Shannon writes,
    22:16
    Dennis, stop shortchanging your pinball abilities. You are good enough, smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like you. Oh, he didn't say darn it. He said, and gosh darn, people like you. Smiley face. I'm older than you, and I can hang a bit with the young guys. So you can do it too. The truth is somewhere in between. Don't quit over the noobs. You can be a winner. Thank you, Shannon, for writing that inspirational email to eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. Folks, you can also try and inspire me by writing to the said email account, and I'll be more than happy to share your inspirational messages with the listening audience.
    22:53
    You can do it, Dennis. Okay. Here's the thing. You don't have to believe in yourself. You have to believe in the may who believes in you. see that that's an interesting that's interesting okay i think i need i think i need to do a little bit of clarification because i maybe i maybe i laid it a little thick on the last uh on the last episode about the the you know pinball and the competitive and the you know being realistic and i'm a big big believer in being realistic do you know who the most unrealistic is again just my opinion who do you think the most unrealistic class of people like who pushes this unrealistic sort of view on accomplishment. Oh, it's totally me. I meant as like a category, like as a stereotype, not obvious. You fall into this, but maybe not for the reason you think.
    23:43
    Parents, because you're a parent, because parents want their children to believe they can do anything. So they tell them that. and then you get a little Miss Sunshine where your kid goes quiet for four years giving you peace and then they find out they're colorblind and they can't be a pilot. So they can't do everything because that's just how the world works. And it's all your fault. You gave them false hope. I didn't take their colors away. Oh, you mean you as a parent. You gave them false hope. Right, right. Well, I'm just saying that. We can't actually do... This isn't like a shonen jump anime. We can't actually do every... We had a similar discussion of this earlier off air but you can't actually just be like you know what i'll just grind harder and salt like you know what if i want to make five million dollars in a year i can just grind this and if i'm if i don't have the skill to grind my way to the victory i want i'll burn my own life force energy and i'll still win like you can't burn your own life force energy to beat ray day at pinball that doesn't it's not how it works so that was my what was my attempted message was i will never be that see the secret is is when you walk up to the machine before you plunge the ball you have to set there and you have to clench your fist really tight and open your eyes really wide and scream at the sky and and flex your muscles really strong and just scream as loud as you can and hopefully your hair will pop up a couple times maybe there'll be a little electricity bouncing around then you plunge the ball and then it's just god mode yes so literally unfortunately Super Saiyan doesn't really fly it's not so much Kami Kami Ha and more Kami Kami Nah is really kind of the angle that I'm presenting and because not everyone I learned this trying to play basketball back in middle school and I would practice but I never got that good like I was awful quite frankly now I could have practiced more and probably gotten to a point where I wasn't awful but I'd never have been great like I could tell like whatever it is Even saying all that aside, I'd never – could you have been in the NBA? Have you practiced and practiced and practiced? I'm like, do you see how tall I am? No, because even if I had the skill set of NBA players, the height disadvantage would still mean I was the worst player against them, that it wouldn't make any sense to hire me. You see what I'm – but we're getting off on an aside. So I'm not – so again, thank you, Shannon, for the inspirational words. My main reason I play less competitive pinball now has nothing to do with winning or losing. It has to do with how long the tournaments take. Tony messaged me yesterday asking how I was going to pinball, and I just thought about driving up 30 minutes to the 403 Club, not getting my tacos because I do well enough that it's going to push close to nine possibly. Or Tony does, and we carpooled. And then I don't get my tacos, and then I'm taco grumpy, and I still didn't win any money. and I spent four plus hours of my time, which is more than I would invest into one of my favorite films. And I'm just kind of like, no, I don't think I'll go today. I'd rather be lazy. I think that's how I describe it. I'm just going to sit and be lazy and watch Evo fighting tournament, which I'm also not good enough to do.
    26:57
    So in that regard, that was sort of my, that's the actual reason I don't play as much competitive pinball as I used to, is because it's just, it's a big time sink. And that time I'm just, I've got so many other things I'm doing now. Like when we started playing, we had this podcast. I do another podcast now. So I podcast every weekend and I do YouTube for my wristwatch hobby. And I do that like every Saturday. I do a live stream now because I'm trying to be consistent and all that other stuff. And then, of course, the job change stuff. And a lot of that's been in the works for more than just like the last week. Like that stuff, this has been a process that's been taking a lot of my time. So in reality, I just have other things that compete with my time now. but last weekend you went well you didn't but I played pinball when we had people over I hosted a game night I guess I'm going to put that in the intro so we actually played some video games or at least I did oh yeah that's right Street Fighter we played Street Fighter 6 and then I never made it down to pinball because we were talking yeah well that's how it was I had some people that hadn't played pinball this is old people game night half of it is just us sitting around talking We sometimes get emails or I get messages asking, like, what is this game night? I think we have that on our EGP Discord, which the link to is in our show notes for people. If you want to join it, there's no cost or anything.
    28:19
    And someone asked about, like, well, what games do you guys play in the game night? I'm like, well, game night's like 50-50 that any games are going to be played. Because it might just be old people sitting and talking and eating weird Canadian potato chips that David Dennis from Super Bowl Chronicles sells. And by weird, you mean good. We didn't open all of them. but I enjoyed both the all dressed chips and the ketchup. I did. All dressed chips are so good. They are my second favorite. I still haven't opened the Lay's ketchup chips, but I've had those before. Yeah. Ketchup chips are good. The all dressed are my second favorite type of chip on the planet. Second to? Salt and vinegar. Oh, salt and vinegar. Okay. I do like salt and vinegar chips. My personal favorite are probably sour cream and onion.
    29:00
    I don't buy them much anymore because I eat them too quickly. Yeah. Well, that's where I am. See, I do the same thing with salt and vinegar, but then with salt and vinegar, you have the built-in stop because your mouth starts to hurt. That's the one reason I couldn't put them as really a top chip is I like them so much, but eventually the tongue is like, no.
    29:19
    The mind is willing, but the body is not. It's perhaps a good way to describe it. The thing is I like salt and vinegar chips enough that I'm capable to tell my tongue that take it, you'll like it, and just keep going.
    29:34
    Well, you are strong. I used to be able to eat all that sort of stuff. I used to eat Warheads, Atomic Warheads, all the time. If I have more than two now, my tongue will bleed. Nice. Quality. I'm weak. I'm soft now. Probably because I wasn't strong enough to win these pinball tournaments.
    29:51
    So let's move to the last pinball topic, Tony, because I think we've spent enough time with going over that email. Again, I don't really have a lot of stuff, so I wanted to do a little discussion with you. It didn't need to be very long. But we've been talking a lot about releases this year in particular, especially back in March. Holy cow, were there a lot.
    30:09
    What do you think of the status of the current pinball market? And again, I didn't know where I wanted to take this other than I thought maybe discussing what's happening. So we kind of mentioned this on the last episode how, and I don't know if things have changed. I'm guessing not because I haven't heard, but I've been busy. Like how Venom LEs didn't sell out.
    30:27
    And I wouldn't be surprised if they'll get there. But they didn't sell out day one. They didn't sell out week one. And so that sort of shape up. There was an article. I don't have the link because that just came to my mind, but I just read it I think yesterday. The Kineticist has a website, a pinball website. It has a really nice article. It's a follow-up from one that I think someone wrote for This Week in Pinball a year ago. But analyzing the market, the used sales, like they gather aggregate data based off of eBay and Pinside and some of confirmed sales. And while used pinball prices have inflated since last year, they only on average were up 5%. And based off of like breakdown categories like early DMD, late DMD, all that. Not all of those even went up. Some went down. I think early, like the post-99 to late DMD era went down in value. I don't remember exactly. But the bottom line is it wasn't like how it was in the pandemic where double-digit percentage increases on used prices were happening. So that's all slowed. We're seeing a slowing on new purchases. I just mentioned Venom, but you and I are very well familiar with the fact that there are plenty. It's easy to get limited, and I mean high-end limited, like Godfathers and Toy Store. There's just a lot of product. Everyone's got inventory now that's an official dealer of something. It might still be a little challenging to get a Godzilla Premium, for example, or a Foo Fighters Premium. But if you want a Foo Fighters Pro or you want to go and get a Rush, it's not a big deal. So that is my groundwork. What do you think of the pinball market right now? I think it mirrors the rest of the market. I think everything is getting soft. A lot of it just has to do with the overall increase in cost of everything and the overall amount of money that people have disposable compared to where they were five years ago, compared to where a lot of the other stuff was at the buildup to COVID and through COVID. I think it's a situation that will get better, but it's going to take a little while. I think that it's a much wider thing than just the pinball market. I think we'll probably start seeing pretty decent drops, at least on the used market, shortly, even more than we have. I think the big difference will be just how long it takes before we start getting an overall stall, or even if we do get an overall stall to the new market.
    33:08
    Do you think that the manufacturers have raised their prices too much? Yeah, I do. I think they've raised it too much compared to what people are willing to go to because of overall market forces. But I don't know that the manufacturers necessarily had a choice just because of their increase in costs.
    33:36
    If they want to maintain the same kind of income, they had to increase. The question just becomes, was it what – it worked because of how things were going through the pandemic. How well is it going to continue working now that inflation is up and everything is up and people just don't have the disposable income that they had three years ago. I think that's the big question. I don't really think we're going to see prices reduce, but it's entirely possible that we're going to see prices hold for a while.
    34:19
    Yeah, those are – and again, we often see these things pretty similarly, so I don't really have any dramatically different takes than you on the subject. I would in no way be surprised In fact I going to go ahead I want to be a little speculative so I go ahead and predict When January comes around we do not see the usual Stern price increase that we been seeing for a number of years now Now, Stern has, by and large, done fairly consistent, small, very what you'd consider incremental price increases on their lines until we had the change with the Insire Connected. And then they spiked the price of the pros up $900 with that. Godzilla was the first with the Insider Connected built in from the word go. And they were selling the kits for like $400. But then there was this much bigger price increase beyond the Insider Connected add-on that I think was them trying to account for the supply chain costs that were happening. And I don't think they have any intention of dropping that back, even as supply chain costs probably, I'm guessing, will loosen and go down. because there's some of that price wasn't it was a scarcity because it's like you're competing with ford to get chips and so the price of chips has gone up but once everything gets caught back up those prices are going to come down and i think a lot i think stern isn't going to be like you know let's let's like give some of that profit back to the buyers however not totally unheard of i mean we did briefly talk about a couple episodes ago how the queen pinball from pinball brothers they dropped 300 off the price uh so and i think that may be a sign of weakness on the fact that pinball brothers is looking at some shaky finance a situation i don't think stern's in but shaky financials like they're like we're not selling enough of these uh if we want to sustain the business we need to generate more queen sales we're not ready to move to the next game yet this is what we need to do i'm more interested are more curious i should say about jersey jack pinball, which I think horrifically overpriced their games when they moved to the $12,000 slash $15,000 model line. I think it made a lot of sense for them to drop their standard edition because it was selling pretty poorly. A lot of people weren't really resonating with it. They dropped it after Guns N' Roses and are actually very shortly into the run of Guns N' Roses because it was so stripped down. And so I understand the decision to move that way. And I kind of understand even – I should say even beyond kind of. I understand the desire for a company like Jersey Jack, which to me feels like it's trying to say we're going to be the Cadillac of the industry. So of course we're going to have the highest prices. But it's just – it's too high. And I think it's showing. And maybe we could say if it had been Toy Story 1 and not Toy Story 4 and if it had been Top Gun and not Godfather that things would be different. But Guns N' Roses was significantly cheaper, and that's the last big hit they had was Guns N' Roses. Also at a time when there was more disposable income and, more importantly, a lot of home disposable time. Right. Which, as you know, it's very, very different now. People are going and doing other trips and vacations. With all the inflation that the economy has gone through, that the U.S. is not officially in recession is pretty impressive. But wage increases have not kept pace with the inflation pace, and that's putting pressure on people. Even people of means have to start making choices if they're wanting to maintain exactly the same standard that they've got because a lot of them – I mean their investments are down and they're driving off of a lot of investment. A lot of my portfolio in retirement has recovered from where the dips hit after sort of a collapse at the end of the pandemic. But it's not like it's been making big gains. It's all been just part of that natural recovery cycle. So in that regard, I think you're right of those sort of things being the big factors in play here at this stage.
    38:26
    Haggis, another good point. I think that they, I think the pricing on Centaur is way too aggressive. I understand based off everything that happened with fathom. They probably felt they needed to do it and they've got added challenges because most of the sales I'm imagining are trying to become American sales and they're just based so far away that they've got other add ons that are just other costs that really put them in a tough, in a tough situation. So I'm not sure again, how sustainable that is. And I don't know how companies that are not doing well, They may have a good plan for the volume of sales they have with the staff size they have. I don't know how entities like American Pinball, and we've talked about our concerns with them for quite a while now, because it doesn't seem like they move enough units for what size they are.
    39:13
    That's an interesting concern. So, yeah, I think that the use prices will probably come down. We saw about, again, according to that piece on the Kinetis site, about a 5% overall inflation increase. I don't think it'll be that much comparing 2023 to 2022 or whatever the next threshold. I don't remember the periods of time that they're doing off the top of my head. But when they do the next one in a year, I don't think that inflation rate is 5%. I think it's less. and I don't know that it's actually a positive number. It's tough because I'm not sure how many sales are going to be newer games. But I think the days are now finally done, as they should be, where these newer titles don't lose any money. And I think that's part of the thing that's happening with Venom and stuff. Producing 1,000 LEs, that's a lot in wristwatches. It's ridiculous in pinball. That's why we've always laughed at 5,000 LEs from JJP. It's goofy. They didn't even sell out of that on GNR. It's like their most successful game. It doesn't make any sense to do numbers like that because it defeats the purpose. They're not special. They're easy to get. And so now you have people – They're completely not limited, limited. Yeah. And so now you're at a point where Stern, it used to be like, okay, they're selling out so quickly on the limiteds. They upped the count to 1,000 not all that long ago. But now when those things don't fly off the shelf immediately, people wonder, will I buy a limited and lose money on it? yeah, probably you should. Right. Well, and I think it's realistic to expect to buy something that you use and then sell used for less than you purchased it. That's not a flaw. That's not a problem. That should be normal.
    41:05
    So I think we're going to see new games in particular. That's where I think most of the struggle will be used. there's a lot of product out there now i think there's gonna be more people getting out of pinball selling their pinball machines off um that will be willing to take losses because they're going to be realized they're not playing them anymore they're doing other things they're not in pandemic mode right i think that's going to well i'm sure that started to happen i think it's going to happen more as people have like people just get to the point where they're like i don't ever turn those things on why do i have so many or whatever if they're not like they were only into it because of because of the pandemic just like we used to see and i don't check as much as i used to so again i might not be totally accurate but uh just based off my experience with within the pinball network a lot of people got into pinball streaming in the pandemic and they do not stream anymore right and they might not have yet reached like mentally reached the point of recognizing that they are in fact not a streamer anymore but a lot of them just aren't then maybe they haven't figured it out yet but they aren't because they're not doing it right because there's something occupied their time when they couldn't do anything else they don't go to the work of doing it anymore and i don't blame them so i think uh we're gonna probably like those i've heard i think it was i don't remember which podcast i was listening to but someone had said they were still finding a few dealers that were trying to charge more than msrp for the venom lees those and they hadn't sold them right shock um yeah i think those days are done i think a lot uh customer service orientation on distribution is going to be very much a focus I wouldn't be surprised if we see some distributors get out of this game at this point, because I think it's going to be harder to move units, harder to estimate how much they need. And if people are smart who stayed in the hobby, they will remember those that gouged and burned them in the pandemic and drop them at this point now that they don't. Now it's easy to find anyone with the game you want. So because I you know, those are people that go over MSRP as authorized. I personally think that pinball companies should have contracts with their distributors that say you can't sell over MSRP or you lose your contract. I think that's a good idea. That's common in a lot of other things. Again, we saw it even with cars. There were dealers able to charge more. But that time is done now. So we're moving on. And I'm a big fan of punishing those that hurt you when times were tight. So I would just recommend that. But, yeah, I think we're going to see. It's a softening of the market. I think it's absolutely asinine to argue otherwise at this stage. Now that I'm hearing other people argue that, I just thought it would be a fun topic for us to talk about. So speaking of other fun topics, video games, I know you have a few pieces of news and then you have a discussion for us too. We're having a discussion-heavy episode. Yes. I think I'm going to name this episode Discussion Corner.
    43:55
    No, no song. We don't have a Discussion Corner song yet. Sorry, I thought you were going to sing the Eva fighting song, and I've heard it for 45 minutes on loop, and I cannot bear to hear any music right now because any of it could sound like that with its lyrics that make no sense.
    44:13
    But continue. Discussing games by Moonlight. Okay, we'll stop there. We will stop there. Okay. In realities, Baldur's Gate 3 came out. Oh. And it has been huge. It is the second highest selling game on Steam this year. Oh, what? Second to what? Hogwarts. Oh, yeah, that's right. That was this year. It feels like it was a year ago. It does. Time feels weird this year. It does. But it's selling great.
    44:48
    Baldur's Gate is one of those games that I've dabbled with, but it's never been a huge thing for me. but I had a feeling it was going to be huge when I've had multiple people that work for me that have just basically spent the last two and a half weeks talking about Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate on the way. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever played a Baldur's Gate.
    45:05
    I've dabbled in one of the old ones, like two, I think. So as an RPG or what? It is. It's basically D and D it's like, okay. Yeah. It's D and D RPG, but it's sales have gone very well. It's only on PC currently. It's coming to PlayStation soon. PlayStation.
    45:27
    With a follow-up to Xbox at a later date, I believe. Yeah, after they buy the company. Yeah. So, but it's, we'll see. I don't know. I'll talk to, I'm sure. One of my guys that I worked with, his and his wife are both huge fans, and they were both getting copies because it's a single-player game, and their plan was to spend this entire weekend just playing Baldur's Gate. Now, do you think if Microsoft were to buy this IP, would they rename it to Bill's Gates? No. Bill's Gates 3? No, they don't want to lose the sales. That's how they would subtitle it. It would be Baldur's Gate 4, Bill's Gate. but speaking of Microsoft and Xbox we got an announcement that Final Fantasy 14 is launching on Xbox next spring this surprised me because it feels like Square doesn't do anything with Microsoft Square doesn't really do anything with Microsoft I've never really interpreted that as anything other than Sony seems to just sew up everything that uh that and that's what it does Because, I mean, there was a point in time with some of the older Xboxes that you'd see Square stuff. Sure. Yeah, Final Fantasy XI was on 360. But it's not been for a while because Sony and PlayStation have sewed everything up, which made it even more interesting that the Square Enix CEO also announced that there will be other Square games coming to Xbox. I wonder if some time exclusivity has expired. That's what I'm wondering. or if there was a something in the shadowy backdoor handshake, handshake deal with everything going on over Call of Duty and the buyouts and everything on the backside. I hadn't considered that.
    47:24
    But it'll be interesting to see what other Square Enix games make it to. The big one to me will be will we see the newest Final Fantasy anytime soon? and I don't see how it's possible. But we could see some of the older Final Fantasies. Right. I would lean more towards the latter as well. I think Sony will want to keep at least a significantly timed exclusivity on the newest Final Fantasy if they can help it. So far, they've always been able to help it. Yeah, they have. And that's because they just passed the $40 million sold mark on 5. Doing very well. Probably be higher if they hadn't had such supply chain issues. Right. I'm sure it would. because up until, honestly, earlier this year, you couldn't just walk in and buy one. No. You would have to hire a Switch.
    48:12
    Speaking of Switch, that's not in my notes. They have announced their next generation console comes out next year. Really? Okay. So, no idea what it is, but. Well, hopefully they don't call it Switch-U.
    48:28
    I mean, come on. It seems like every other release they screw up something really basic. Switch-U Cruise Control. switch switch cube i i have a feeling that they're not going to leave the switch style model my guess is in all honesty it's been it's going to be the long hinted at uh always denied uh higher fidelity higher capability switch that people have talked about nintendo so it's like no no no no no we have no plans we have no plans but then you see like the steam deck who doesn't So my guess is it's going to be the Switch version of that. And that especially to me plays in with all of the discussion with them signing a 10-year deal with Microsoft for Call of Duty. Because Call of Duty on the current Switch architecture would be weird. But Call of Duty on a higher power Switch architecture would work much better. So that's my guess of what that whole thing works out to be. Okay. I think that's pretty reasonable. Diablo 4's first really big patch came out and it crashed and burned so bad. Don't you all have Necromancer?
    49:37
    I've honestly not played Diablo since the day the patch came out because it nerfed my character so bad I didn't care anymore. Right. Because I went from – I was already playing the weakest class. Yes.
    49:55
    Sorcerer? Yes. I was playing Sorcerer. I was playing a very good build of Sorcerer. It was the weakest class. It was hilarious when I'd do group stuff and there were other players around, and I watched them just mow through stuff that I had to, like, chew through slowly.
    50:10
    But I was having fun. When after the nerf came out, it got to the point where fights that literally the day before I would chew through and it wouldn't be that bad and it would be fun, would be a slog hoping to survive. I went from using health potions maybe once or twice a fight to wiping my health potion content out in a fight. It was, I would be starting to actively worry. I fought a boss that honestly should not have been a huge problem, and I had to redo the fight five times.
    50:50
    Wow. And at that point – It's more like Diablo Souls at that point. I was just like, I'm done. And I've not booted Diablo since because they were trying to fix issues where – the joke is they found the bug where players were having fun, so they patched it out. Right. I'm assuming the problem was – and we've seen this with other MMOs in particular – is people get through the content so quickly. That's what it was. They can't keep up with, like, new release or whatever, so they try and slow it back. People were getting through content too fast, so they nerfed every class, so they all did less damage, had less health, did less of everything. They nerfed all of the events and all of the, like, endgame stuff. They nerfed it all so that it was harder and rewarded you less for completing it. and like there a PVP event that even if you get in with only a couple minutes left you could get a little something And they nerfed it so much that if you couldn spend at least 15 minutes on the PVP event it's not worth your time. So they literally just murdered that entire event. Nobody even did it anymore. Because if you couldn't be there when it started, it wasn't worth your time. Because you wouldn't get anything a lot of times. Or if you did get something, and you wouldn't get enough to be worth the time you spent.
    52:14
    So they hurt themselves so badly across the board that they had to do a fireside chat where they literally said, hey, we screwed up.
    52:24
    And they talked about all the changes they're going to make to fix it, and they did several hot patches to fix several things, and they've got larger patches coming in. And they did say that it's like there's always going to be balancing to try and keep the classes fair, but there's not necessarily going to try and balance everything all at once because it caused such a backlash. So it was definitely a primary issue, something that tore them up and hurt their fan base heavily. The placed numbers are very far down. So for something that's designed to be a living game, that's always a bad sign. Always easier to lose people than to bring them back. Right. So we'll see how their patches going forward and their hot fixes go, but I have not been willing to step back into it as of yet since I walked away from it.
    53:28
    Just I haven't had a lot of time to play anything lately, and I was going to play something that was just annoying me. But that's all I really have for like new stuff But I thought I'd have a discussion Or a beginning of a discussion Because this discussion is going to be much too large to do In a single episode I thought that we would be for the listeners They've heard some of our backgrounds They know some of our likes and dislikes And our histories with video games I thought we would talk about different gaming genres and gaming franchises and just maybe take slightly deeper dives into the genres about which genres we like and which franchises we like. And then at later dates, other times we can take a deep dive into something specific that really strikes people's interest. So I thought we'd open up with talking about what I would consider the first real common genre that most people in our age bracket play, which was going to be the platformer.
    54:34
    Because that's what most early like NES style games were. That's what the Mario's were. The Metroidvanias are platformers with extras. Most of what we played back in that day were platformers. So I thought maybe we'd sit down here for just a little bit and just talk about our thoughts on platformers, both that we remember from back in the day and now, because I can tell you right now, I'm not a big fan of platformers anymore. But I used to be. I know I used to play a lot of platformers and I love platformers. But nowadays, I really get bored of a platformer real fast. yeah uh i mean i guess maybe the thing to note with platformers is there are different as there are often with many broad genres there are different flavors to it so for me most of my platforming experience falls into two categories there's the more pure platformer usually that uh end up relying a lot on platforming uh elements that become more and more difficult to execute on and then there's like the metroidvanias and stuff where yeah they they do get more challenging as you play but sometimes it's not actually the platforming element that's the hard part it really depends on the game right but uh so as i've gotten older i i play platformers less overall um my tolerance on pure platforming is much more limited than it used to be uh and my acceptance of the more mixed style, like the Metroidvania style, I still have found that, again, depending on how they approach it, that format can work for me. But if the difficulty ceiling gets too high, that there's too many repetitive deaths, sort of like trying to get through the one area, my frustration levels are at the point where I generally will abandon the game rather than master it. Right. And I don't even have to go all that far back necessarily otherwise. But the thing is, I never historically played a lot of Metroidvania styles, whereas I probably play more of them now than I used to. But it's still a sometimes food. I don't I don't touch those all that often. And I used to, especially once I was an adult, but not as old as I am now, obviously, with pure platformers. I sometimes get in the mood for one. And so then I'd get one and almost binge it, really. And then I take a big break, like half a year or a year. and then maybe pick up another one and kind of do that and take a break.
    57:02
    So that would be my initial groundwork, I guess, statement on that. So what are you thinking of in terms of particular franchises? I mean, just the particular, like I think specifically when I think about just the larger scope of this type of genre, The ones that jump to mind Obviously all of the early Mario's And games of that ilk Of the NES and the early Super NES eras Come to mind The one I can think of most recently That I've played And that I can guarantee And it wasn't that recent Was only really fun because we did it as a group Was like Meat Boy Super Meat Boy Was that what it was called? No, Explosion Man is the one I'm thinking of That was a game that It was a lot of fun as a group But I can't see myself have ever been Even trying to play that game Like I was watching Some of the platformers on The very specifically designed For speedrunner platformers That we saw during Awesome Games Done Quick or summer games done quick that were interesting to watch, but I can't fathom how somebody would have any enjoyment from even playing it. Some of the kind of crazy pixel perfect stuff.
    58:35
    I would say the most recent game that I've played that would fall into this category that I've kind of enjoyed was the Shantae series,
    58:45
    the Shantae Half-Genie Hero games. Okay. Yep. Uh, and, but it's funny to me because like when I was younger, that's the type of game that I played all the time, both because I was the primary game out there, but also because I really enjoyed them. I don't have nearly the enjoyment of like going back to like Mario three, as I did when Mario three was originally out or back in the day when we would play, um, Oh, see the Mario games were, were real big back then. And the more Ghouls and Goblins, I remember, that's going way back.
    59:24
    That series, I remember playing a lot of that. That was one of the games I actually owned as a kid, so I played a ton of that series. And it was very much that platformer Metroidvania style. And, of course, the Mega Mans. I tried to play. I got the Mega Man Ultimate Collection a couple of years ago on Steam for super cheap, and I tried to play it. And, wow. That game is much harder than I remember it being.
    59:52
    I spent probably an hour or more before I beat the first level. And I was like, I think I'm done for a while. And I've not turned that game on since.
    60:04
    So it's just interesting to me that how much of it has changed over the years. and I think the pure platformers have really floated away into a more specialized niche thing where I think the metroidvanias have become the more common of that style of game to still exist I just don't know how much draw it has in this day and age yeah I think the reason when I hear platformer I still always defaultly think Mario as the first thing but i haven't owned a nintendo system in a really long time well and i wouldn't i don't even know that i would say the newest nintendo games are or the newest mario games are necessarily platformers they're almost more adventure games yeah i mean the uh you know the they they mix up the gimmicks more uh ever since it went 3d but obviously the first like n64 one was still very platformery i think but but yeah they've tried to mix things up because again it's more of a it's more about continuing the character and the lore in the world and kind of like how uh with rpgs where you could used to be able to and i think probably still to this day rely on final fantasy to want to mix up the gameplay mechanics like you you went into final fantasy knowing okay you're probably going to see like chocobos and and and uh ton berries and stuff but the way the game would play would change depending on which version it was i have um i play as i mentioned i play more metroidvanias more now than i used to for example uh earlier this year i played bloodstained curse of the moon which is very much a inspired by in the spirit of castlevania game and castlevania uh was like i played simon's quest on the nez and i basically very rarely played much castlevania after that point right i did one like on the 360 that was a kind of a group game to do I played other Metroidvanias I played one of the Strider games not all that long ago within the last year Ninja Gaiden I played one of the 3D like the 3D one that was like a game on the 360 but I think of that more as a hack and slash really it wasn't like the old school ones which were true platforming I was thinking the very first on NAS Ninja Gaiden now there is a format it kind of falls in between the two where there's a lot of maybe more climbing and platforming. The newer Tomb Raiders and stuff were pretty fun.
    62:35
    It's been a while since they've had more of those. I still like that format, and I'm much more open to accepting that sort of format. The pure, pure platformers, especially what we might think of like how Shmups have Bullet Hell, and then you have Souls-style RPGs where deaths are super common.
    62:54
    Explosion Man, in my mind, kind of fell into that category. There was a lot of perfection stuff that was needed. As Tony mentioned, we played that one as a group. I played that and Ms. Explosion Man.
    63:04
    And they got hard, but not unbreakably hard. The thing is, I don't know if I could do it anymore. I probably could. But I think one of the things with platformers, other than tastes have evolved over time, and we came from an era where a lot of early NES games were basically, they were doing the quarter eater approach. And platformers were a great way to eat quarters because you had to basically get down muscle memory.
    63:31
    N Plus was a very hard platformer that I could not finish that I played a lot of. The last one that I really ground out and was successful in doing was the one you initially thought was Splosion Man, Super Meat Boy, which I think started as a flash game. I had Super Meat Boy on the 360. there was a little you know the 360 had avatars and you could get like little clothes and stuff and you know make your dress up your avatar they also sometimes had props and Super Meat Boy if you could finish the game the main game you didn't have to go and do Cotton Candy Alley or whatever it was called which was like another mode where you played the meat thing you were trying to rescue but played as her you got a little animated meat boy and I was like I want that little meat boy guy So I got through and won Super Meat Boy, regular game, Super Meat Boy.
    64:28
    I think that was my breaking point because it was so difficult. Super Meat Boy, I would constantly celebrate because one of the gimmicks was once you got through the level, it would then replay and show you all your deaths all at once. You'd see all your little meats going around and getting pwned and all of that. And so I actually was able to go and get through the end and finish that up. And that was the breaking point where I was like, I won't put that much time into platformers anymore to master them. Like I have Ori and Will of the Wisps. It's a fun game. It's got more than just platforming elements, but I got stuck on a platforming section. I tried it across two days. I've not picked the game back up. Yeah, see, and that's like my kids love the Ori games. They love A Hat in Time. Both of my kids deeply love A Hat in Time. For them, that's like their Super Mario 3 type touchstone of that genre game because they both play it a lot. My eldest daughter has beaten the game in multiple times in multiple ways.
    65:30
    So that's their type of thing. I've watched them play it. I have zero interest in actually playing it after watching them play it. But it's interesting to me the evolutions and how it has changed while still kind of maintaining over the years. So at this point, the way I would describe it is I enjoy games that have platforming elements to them. And I am willing to, well, it's not my favorite genre. I am willing to play a well-designed like Metroidvania style game where the platforming is maybe more in the realm of how you deal with traversing the space. And a lot of that traversing is figuring out how to cope with the enemies versus the pure platforming approach of you're going to like you need frame perfect jumps and avoid all the spot like all that. The super meat boy explosion man stuff. If there was another explosion man, honestly, I'd probably pick it up and play it. But that's not – I don't look for those games anymore. I used to always get a hankering for one, and I would play one, like an N-plus or whatever. Not anymore. I just – I never have the desire. Whereas a Metroidvania, though, style platforming, but more platform light, that stuff can still appeal to me, even if it's a hard game. Now, whether or not I can't get – if I get frustrated and stall out on it, like Ori's got combat and all this other stuff going on with it, and it frustrated me, so I stalled out on it. So my tolerance is lower than it used to be. I think my last big draw towards platforming was when Mario Maker came out.
    67:03
    And it quickly became people were making the show-off levels, people were making fun levels, and people were making levels just that require you to be godlike. And those ceased to be fun. Sure. So... It's just, it's a certain, I mean, and I've seen like a Games Done Quick, people getting these ones where they have to figure it out on the fly. It's fascinating to see people that can quickly master a platformer of that difficulty. Right. Absolutely fascinating. But that's not me. Yeah. Refer back to why I can't beat the greats at pinball. It's like, they've got something. There's like a speed runny platform gene, and mine was turned off. There's a little speed runner switch in the brain somewhere that gets thrown. But there we go. That was my little discussion I thought we'd talk about.
    67:52
    People could write into us if they want to suggest what the next genre would be. If you have a genre or a specific franchise that you'd like us to talk more about our thoughts on specific franchises, I'll let you on a little secret. Your most beloved franchise, it's very possible that it's not our most beloved franchise or that we've never even played it. That's true. So be a little cautious. You won't know until you suggest. Until you ask. It's entirely possible. Well, there could be some secret franchise down there that we've never hinted at that we absolutely love and that we'll go deep into talking about. But until next time, if you want to suggest that or give us any feedback about the episode, you can always email us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. You can also reach us at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. You can choose to support the show as little as a dollar a month at patreon.com slash eclectic underscore gamers. we're on Twitch and Instagram at eclectic underscore gamers and don't forget there's a link in the show notes to our Discord yes and folks next episode is our 200th we made it I don't know what that means well we haven't made it yet but we will have made it in two weeks and then we will talk a little bit more but until that episode my name is Dennis I'm Tony goodbye everybody