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Episode 135 – Hooray for Hoops

Slam Tilt Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Oct 2, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Slam Tilt defends Hoops, discusses tournaments and streaming, reviews Elvira.

Summary

Slam Tilt Podcast episode 135 centers on a spirited defense of the classic Gottlieb game Hoops against criticism from another pinball podcaster (Zach Minney), with extensive discussion of tournament formats, streaming appeal, and recent events including the Stomp tournament. The hosts also review Stern's new Elvira premium machine and debate competitive pinball's viability for mainstream audiences.

Key Claims

  • Zach Minney has been bashing Hoops for three weeks because it lacks rams and doesn't have the bulb count of Silver Slugger

    high confidence · Ron Hallett and Dennis Kessel, discussing Zach's podcast criticism

  • Hoops has roughly half the number of bulbs that Silver Slugger had

    medium confidence · Dennis Kessel counted bulbs in the Hoops manual

  • Elvira premium pricing is following Kapow pricing structure, making it more expensive than typical Stern premiums

    high confidence · Ron Hallett and hosts discussing Elvira pricing relative to other premiums

  • Elvira comes in three tiers: Premium, LE, and Signature Edition (no Pro model)

    high confidence · Hosts clarifying Elvira product lineup during pricing discussion

  • The Stomp tournament had 44 players qualify and attend, up from originally planned 32

    high confidence · Bruce Nightingale explaining demand-driven tournament expansion

  • Only 3-4 viewers watched Stomp qualifying rounds, with viewership only increasing at finals

    high confidence · Bruce Nightingale discussing live-streaming viewership data

  • Dennis had a bug report filed for Getaway code where a player retained Redline Mania lit but reset to first gear on ball 3

    high confidence · Hosts discussing tournament technical issues with Sorin's code

  • Stern's proposed solution of 10 custom unthemed games for tournaments would be necessary because existing machines have code flaws ineligible for broadcast

    medium confidence · Dennis Kessel explaining Zach Minney's tournament broadcast proposal rationale

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't think Zach's ever played Hoops. That's my theory. That's the problem.”

    Dennis Kessel @ early — Core defense of Hoops against criticism, suggesting the critic lacks firsthand experience

  • “I'm not going to judge anything anymore until I get my fucking hands on it.”

    Bruce Nightingale @ mid — Personal policy shift on reviewing games without hands-on play, addressing broader community tendency to judge pre-release

  • “No one wants to watch tournament streams. Nobody.”

    Bruce Nightingale @ late — Blunt statement about the disconnect between tournament pinball and mainstream entertainment appeal

  • “When people watch, like, Jack Danger stream, they're not watching it to watch pinball. They're watching it to watch Jack Danger.”

    Dennis Kessel @ late — Insight into why pinball streaming works: personality-driven, not gameplay-driven

  • “It's called a segue, Bruce.”

    Ron Hallett @ early — Running joke about Bruce's conversational transitions, establishes podcast's comedic tone

  • “The hoops is better than a lot of other Gottlieb games. Way to set the bar, dude.”

    Dennis Kessel @ early — Sarcastically defends Hoops by comparing it favorably to other Gottlieb titles

  • “I have found, and I know when Pinberg does this, people complain... I feel less is more.”

    Bruce Nightingale @ late — Argument that streaming only finals/semifinals is more effective than full tournament coverage

  • “Probably someone who's never played in a single tournament in their entire life.”

    Ron Hallett @ late — Criticism of Zach Minney's 10 custom unthemed games proposal as impractical for actual tournament players

Entities

Dennis KesselpersonRon HallettpersonBruce NightingalepersonZach MinneypersonHoopsgameElvira, House of HorrorsgameTotal Nuclear Annihilation (TNA)game

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Sustained criticism of Zach Minney's Hoops bashing and his unconventional tournament format proposals; hosts question whether he's actually played the game

    high · Multiple references to Zach's podcast criticism and explicit dismissal of his tournament ideas as impractical

  • ?

    product_launch: Elvira, House of Horrors officially revealed on Jack Danger's Deadflip stream; Stern premium with higher-than-typical pricing

    high · Hosts discuss watching Deadflip reveal, describe Elvira mechanics (diverter, up kicker), artwork by Greg Freireich, and confirmation of Signature Edition tier

  • ?

    product_concern: Elvira's premium pricing ($8K for premium tier following Kapow pricing) creates barrier to operator adoption; operators discussing whether coin drop justifies upcharge

    high · Dennis notes operators haven't decided to route Elvira; hosts debate if $8K premium is too expensive vs typical premium; concerns about operator profitability

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Getaway code bug in Stomp tournament: player four retained Redline Mania lit on ball 2, but reset to first gear on ball 3 instead of keeping state

    high · Hosts describe specific sequence; bug report filed with Sorin; acknowledged as probably requiring complex sequence to reproduce

  • ?

    event_signal: Stomp tournament successfully accommodated 44 players (expanded from 32 planned), featured strong cooling management, and had no rig issues for first time

    high · Bruce details demand-driven expansion, successful use of Match Play software, open deck crowd management, and first time without signal issues

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.422

0:00
Okay, so what do we know about this kid? I picked him up at Burger World, but he doesn't have any ID or anything. Says his name is Cornholio. What the hell kind of a name is that? Is that his first name or last? Oh, I don't know. It's the only name he gives. Cornholio? Sounds Spanish. Could be Italian. Doubt it. Well, the little bastard devoured my taco and burrito combo on the ride over. Yeah, probably Mexican. Says he's from Lake Titicaca. Lake Titicaca? Lake Titicaca. Okay. Find out where the hell Lake Titicaca is. Nicaragua. Nicaragua? Agua for my bunghole. Bunghole. Oh, yeah, and he keeps saying he needs TP for his bunghole. What the hell's a bunghole? You find out what a bunghole is. You are a bunghole.
1:00
Coming to you from beautiful upstate New York, this is the Slam Silk Podcast, the show about all things pinball. I'm your host, Ron Hallett, here with my co-host, Bruce Nightingale. Hoops, hoops, baby. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Hoops, hoops, baby. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I love hoops. That's a great game. It is a great game. I mean, I don't know where the hatred is coming from. I think somebody is a little brain dead. Well, we know somebody who owns the hoops. Yes, we do. And because of that brain deadness, we had to get this person on. Well, that's the sole reason that he's on the show is because of hoops. No, but it's a perfect, perfect lead in. It's called a segue. Yes, Bruce, why don't you introduce our guest? He is the master of not one pinball podcast, but two pinball podcasts. The Eclectic Gamers podcast and This Week in Pinball Every Other Week. Dennis, am I going to say it right? Kessel?
2:07
No, you're so not right. Crystal! God, that's a total fail. In the birds of hoops. In your face. In my face. Woo-hoo! That's bad, Bruce. It's not like we haven't had him on the show. Oh, wait a minute. We have. Yeah, and... Multiple times, I believe, and you said his name wrong. Is it true that the Kessel Run was named after him? Why, yes, Bruce. Why, yes, it was. It was. Finally. My middle name is 12 Parsecs. Oh, what a great intro, Bruce. You are the best. Yes, thank you for the introduction. I appreciate it. No problem. Oh, Mr. Heal It. What are you doing? Heal It? Yes, yes. Okay, Mr. Nit and Gale. Nit and Gale is me. Nit and Gally. Well, hello. Welcome, everyone, to episode 135. We are back. Better than ever. So what are we going to talk about? Well, let's start with hoops. You mentioned hoops. What's the deal with hoops? Everyone loves hoops. Everyone except for one pinball podcaster. Very disappointed. You don't mean the illustrious Mr. Zach Minney, host of this week's pinball podcast. I do. I'm surprised. It's three weeks he's been bashing on an excellent game because I guess it doesn't have any rams on it or anything so special. Come on, Doc. Get your head out of your ass. So if you put 10 stadiums on your hoops, would he like it more? Probably. I'm sure he would. And to be fair, I counted up in the manual, it doesn't even have half the number of bulbs that Silver Slugger, the first street-level game, had. So they did scale back on the lighting. Interesting. And they scaled back on the artwork. Well, it might be arguable that all the street-level games kind of have garbage for art. But that's not where the game is played. on the play field itself. You know what? I don't think Zach's ever played Hoops. That's my theory. That's the problem. I don't think he's played anything before 1986. No, he has. Fathom. Oh, of course. The other collector. Meteor. Oh, Meteor. Okay, a good game. And he's played 1EM Grand Prix, because it has spinners. That's a good game, though. Okay, okay, I'll give him that. That's okay. But Fathom is another... collector darling overrated game. It's a trophy piece. Yeah, it looks great. Sounds great. Yes, and the artwork is probably one of the best ones ever made. The art package is incredible. Isn't that the same guy that everyone now bashes on?
Getaway
game
Stomp Tournamentevent
Slam Tilt Podcastorganization
Jack Dangerperson
Greg Freireichperson
Sorinperson
Dickperson
Ed Zeltmanperson
Jerry Bernardperson
Tyler Ozperson
Mystery Science Theater 3000media_property
Pinbergorganization
KC GameConevent
Silver Ball Saloonvenue
Stern Pinballcompany
Deadflip Streamcontent
This Week in Pinballcontent
Eclectic Gamers Podcastcontent
Project Pinballorganization
  • ?

    content_signal: Tournament streaming viewership is extremely low during qualifying (3-4 viewers) and only grows for finals; Pinberg model of streaming only semis/finals reflects this reality

    high · Bruce reports Stomp qualifying had 3-4 viewers; cites Pinberg's semi/finals-only strategy; Dennis confirms KC GameCon had <10 viewers until finals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Hosts debate optimal tournament formats; Zach Minney proposes 10 custom unthemed Stern games for broadcast viability; hosts argue this is impractical and misses root cause (personality-driven viewership, not gameplay)

    high · Extensive discussion of tournament format alternatives; Dennis explains IP licensing reasons for unthemed proposal; hosts offer Heads-Up and timed format as more viable

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts defend Hoops artwork despite it being simpler than later Gottlieb games; characterize artwork as less important than gameplay; debate expectations for premium pricing games

    medium · Ron notes Hoops art compared favorably to other Gottliebs; hosts discuss whether higher price justifies more elaborate art; general consensus that gameplay > aesthetics

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Greg Freireich facing online bashing for Elvira artwork despite historical praise for Fathom art; community expectations for premium-priced game artwork appear to be rising

    medium · Hosts note Freireich is now being bashed by podcasts; acknowledge uncertainty about specific criticisms; suggest unrealistic expectations

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern appears to be planning Brian Eddy as next game after Elvira, which would be second consecutive fan layout game at premium price point

    low · Dennis notes 'Brian Eddy is supposedly the next game' and questions if Stern will put out two fans in a row; speculation about market positioning

  • ?

    design_innovation: Elvira features notable mechanical innovations: diverter and up kicker mechanics; fan layout playfield; integrates Mystery Science Theater 3000 references and modes

    high · Dennis describes seeing fan layout on Deadflip; mentions diverter and up kicker as cool gimmicks; Ron notes MST3K ray gun sounds and intro modes

  • ?

    venue_signal: Stomp tournament infrastructure improved significantly: cooling management with fans planned for future events; Match Play software enabled forced game assignments upstairs; no rig signal issues for first time

    high · Bruce discusses pre-cooling strategy and game shutdowns affecting some titles; successful forced assignments avoiding basement congestion; plans for big fans for future events

    • 4:37
    What, Greg Ferreris? Yeah, they've been bashing on him lately. Who's been bashing on him? Other podcasts. They.
    4:45
    Nefarious they. Well, as a segue, here's a good segue for us to take a note. You know, Greg Frerich just did some artwork for a game. Yeah? What game would that be, sir? Elvira, House of Horrors. And everyone's bashing it for the artwork. Really? I thought the artwork was fine. It looks like the other two. Wasn't that the point? I agree, but they expect it to be super duper, you're paying this much money and taking this much, give me the fucking break. What more would they have needed to do to the art? I couldn't tell you. Less inserts, maybe, so there's more artwork? Is that the problem? Maybe. Did they want it more photorealistic? I mean, a stylistic change? That would be so dumb. Why would you want to do that? I wouldn't, but I'm trying. The mysterious they, I'm very concerned. Bruce has raised these concerns, and I'm trying to understand. That's all I ever try to do is understand. I don't understand why people listen to this day. Why do you bring up other podcasts on the show, Bruce? Isn't that a violation of one of the rules? No, it's not because it annoys the crap out of me, and I'm finally sick of it. You're finally sick of it, okay. Finally sick of it. They had Elvira was announced, and then it was streamed on the Jack Danger's Deadflip stream. Did any of us see the stream? I did. I watched about 30 minutes. How about you, Bruce? Three. Wow, three minutes, okay. Is it because it was so awesome, so bad, or you just didn't have time? Or did you get mad at the art? No, no, I didn't mind. Actually, art is like the least important thing for me, honestly.
    6:25
    I'm happy to hear you say that. I don't mind. Actually, I don't mind hoops art. They don't have their shoes tied. It's dangerous. It encouraged a horde of children to not have their shoes tied while playing basketball. Very unsafe. The hoops is better than a lot of other Gottlieb games. Way to set the bar, dude.
    6:44
    You're so generous, Bruce. The best game ever, of course, is Mario. Because you have the artwork from Nintendo, in which it works really well. You said Mario, and I didn't know if you meant Super Mario. No, Mario. Mario Andretti. Mario.
    7:01
    Mario. How's that? Better? Yeah. You know, I never, ever thought of that before, but you may be right on that one. That is probably better art than most of their games. I think it's better art a lot than the 90s. I think it's one of the better early 90s artworks. Too bad the game sucks. It does suck. It really does. And so does Mushroom World also. So they both suck. But, you know, at least the artwork's good. And I think right behind it is kind of Hoops. I like Hoops artwork compared to, what do you call it, Surf and Safari.
    7:32
    There's a lot of turds. Cactus Jacks. Oh, God, I just want to shoot myself in the old junk. Barb Wire. Oh, that's terrible. Big fat's out in there. Oh, terrible. Big Hurt. You mean Mr. Testosterone because he can't get it up anymore?
    7:51
    Now, I think it was an episode or two ago, Bruce, you mentioned that I liked Big Hurt to Ron in an attempt to discredit me. I've actually never played it. Well, you're then better off. Take it from us. No, I'm going to try it now, because maybe I would like it. Oh, no, you won't. You can put it right next to Shack Attack and play some Shack Attack. It'd be great. Oh, I've never played that either. Oh, boy. I live in a world of deprivation. Yes, you do. I mean, you have to go to Expo and play all these great games. I can't go to Expo. I'm too busy. Come on. No, no, no, no. Well, remember, he needs to plan at least a year in advance to go anywhere, so he hasn't planned for that. It's like birthing. I need nine months. He's going to plan his death. So, it's all scripted. Don't muck with my script. So, have you planned for, let's see, have you planned for Texas? Yes, I have. There you go. I'll get to see Dennis again. You should. Yes, I have my room. I have my tickets. And don't forget, folks, October 5th. Yes. The tickets for the tournament go on sale or whatever, and they will probably sell out. They sold out in 32 minutes last year, so they will probably sell out faster. and the Classics, that did not have a cap on it last year, is going to have a cap on it this year. And they're going to sell it the next day. They're going to sell it the next day after that, I thought. The fifth is the main tournament and the sixth is... Oh, okay. Why are they not selling them simultaneously? Because I think they don't want to overload the system.
    9:20
    Do you know what the cap will be? I think it's also 160. Okay. Well, I'm checking right now. Very good, Bruce. Very good. and I, just like last time, I will be somewhere and probably not be able to register. Excellent. Downstairs in the basement? No, the Jurassic Park launch party is that day. Oh, yeah, I got Ron down here. We're going to have fun. Yes, it's going to be at the world famous Rock Fantasy. Very good, Bruce. Of course it is. I love, I love.
    9:50
    You know, if we ever have any new listeners, which I'm sure we don't, they're like, what the hell, I totally don't get what he just did there. Like, does Santa even know what that is? I know what it is. I assume it's the voice of the proprietor, probably on a one-to-one impression. Yes.
    10:07
    $240 is max for classics. Oh, that's a lot. That's a lot. I hope they have a different room, because that was a very small room. But we'll see. I'm sure it's smart putting the cap on it. But I probably will not. I didn't play in a tournament last year, because the show is just so good. I don't want to be stuck in the tournament room.
    10:27
    I know they always say, like, well, there'll be a queuing system. You can go out and do whatever you want. Well, yeah, and then keep checking the queue over and over and over until I'm up. I only did the tournament once, and I didn't like the experience, so I've not done it again. Yeah, but when did you do it, though? That's a good point. I think that was 2017. Oh, yeah. Some of them you can't go by before they kind of changed up how it was done. They did a thing there where they had, like, 20 different tournaments. They were trying to, like, maximize, like, the points and all that stuff. It's, like, ugly. Super League. No, God, no. Super League. Yeah. We have that again. It's called the New York State Pinball Championships.
    11:06
    It's the new Super League. It's a good thing you have your own rival upstate New York Championships. Yeah, it's the same because we don't have the Buffalo Open anymore. So pretty much, I think, what, the top 30 people in New York State are all New York City. Yeah, it's like you went Highlander on all the competition. There can be only one. Were we talking about Elvira? Yeah, Elvira. Yes. So what do we think of Elvira?
    11:32
    I didn't mind it. It's a fan. Yeah. I think the little gimmicks of the diverter is pretty cool and the up kicker is pretty cool.
    11:42
    I got to play it. Sorry. I'm not going to judge anything anymore until I get my fucking hands on it.
    11:47
    Anymore? That's denoting you have judged in the past before play? Yeah, I have. And I've done stupid things like other people have. And guess what? I'm not going to judge anything until I can touch it and feel it and make it mine.
    12:01
    How about you, Dennis? I will pass a little bit of judgment without playing it, but I won't get too speculative. Art's fine. I like what they did with the story. The mechs are cool. I was a little surprised that they went with a fan layout. And because it is a fan layout in the way I saw it on the Deadflip stream, I think it looks like it shoots well and has good flow, but I'm also not excited about it. Okay, now I have a question. Wait a minute. How about me? Ah, fuck you.
    12:29
    I have to talk about the same question you just brought up. That's why. Hold on. Brian Eddy is supposedly the next game. That's what I've heard. He is the master of the fan. Will Stern put out two fans in a row?
    12:41
    Maybe. Do you want me to be more – I say they're willing to, yes, because Elvira's not a cornerstone, so it doesn't count. Yeah, but still. I mean, that's probably my big issue is it's a fan, but it's at a premium price point. So that's the barrier. It's going to be the dollars to get in on this game. I still don't know if we're going to have one en route. I've seen an operator of ours discussing it with the community, but I don't think he's convinced yet that the coin drop is going to be worth the upcharge. Wait a sec. How much is your most expensive game, Dennis?
    13:11
    Like in my collection? Yes, sir. About $6,000. Okay. So another two you have to kick in just to get a... L-Virus. Okay. Really? It's that much? What is the price? 8K for the premium. See, that's pretty steep for cheapo Dennis who buys peasant pros, as Ryan T. loves to say. The only reason I had something at six was because I bought Total Nuclear Annihilation. Your favorite game, Bruce. The hoops of the modern era. We'll get into this. We'll get into that later on. I thought the other premiums, isn't a typical stream premium less than that? No, because it's actually almost following Kapow pricing. Yeah, I think you're right, Ron. My understanding is the pricing is higher on Elvira than the typical premium. Okay. Because there is no pro. It's premium, LE, and then whatever they call it, the super LE. Collectors Edition. Oh, Signature Edition. No, Signature Edition. So it's actually following the Kapow pricing. Okay. My turn. Yeah. Wow. You sound really excited. I'm waiting for this. Tell us your thoughts, Ron. I want to know. as a mystery science theater viewer for almost 30 years now i was super psyched when i saw like they have at least those movies are all from mystery science not all of them but they have like teenagers from outer space manos the hands of fate they are both from we're on mystery science theater and in the one mode from the teenagers from outer space like when you hit certain shots It makes the, like, ray gun sound that they used in the movie, and I just popped big time for that. I thought that was the coolest thing. Oh, my. I like the little intros that she does, like, before the modes. The castle looks cool. I'm sorry. The house looks cool.
    14:57
    Yeah, I would also have to play. Would you buy one? Hell no. Me either. No. I've had two LVIRs in my history and my life. I don't need a third. Dennis? No, come on. It's way too expensive for me. Yeah, you know what his most expensive game is, Bruce? He didn't say what it was. You know what it is. Yes, it was. It's TNA. Yeah. See, another smart person here. I'm like Bruce. Oh, you're done. Beep. Well, we'll get to that later on. We'll get to that later on. Thanks to me. Yeah, bring back my beep. I know that beep. We will bring that up later on. We talked about this. We will bring this up. Okay. I'm holding you to it. Oh, we will. It's one of our topics. Okay, Bruce. Yes. Let's get the elephant out of the room. We had Stomp. Yes, we did. Who won? No, no. Let's first state before anything else, Ron had a great selection of games, as always, and we only had one issue, and it wasn't Ron's fault. Really? We only had one issue? Besides a ball hanger, but that kind of stupid stuff. We really only had one major issue. Which one was that? Refresh my memory. Code. We found a bug. Not a bug in Soren code. Yes. Oh, how could I foresee this?
    16:21
    Poor Soren. I let him know. On Getaway, we had a player that had four players playing. Four players playing. Player four has Redline Mania lit on ball two and drains out. So he's sitting there with Redline Mania ready for his third ball. But when he comes up for his third ball, guess what?
    16:46
    He's at first gear again. No. Well, as it turns out, he won. He did win. So it actually didn't matter. We picked the game out. Yeah, we took the game out. We just didn't. And the funny thing is, we used it last year. Yeah, but I don't think we ever saw that code. No. That code was in it last year. I'm saying we didn't see the issue last night. Yeah, we didn't see any issues. So it's been reported. Bug report has been made. Filed. Has been filed. I wish we were streaming it so Sorin could get a better look. I wanted to, too. He could get a better look at it because I'm sure it was probably a sequence of events that caused that to happen. Yes. Which our pathetic explanation will not be enough information. So we had some 44 players. All 44 showed up. They all showed up. We had a great time. Yes. Ron didn't have to play No he did not Nope And we donated How much money to Project Pinball?
    17:43
    I do not remember I think it was like $150 $170 Which is a good thing They played Spanish Eyes And who was the winner of that? I think it was Some guy who is on another Pinball podcast Another podcast Yeah Some guy Yeah Joe something Joe What's his name? Lemire Oh.
    18:05
    Lemur. There we go. That's it, yes. He can hang with some of these guys, you know, once in a while. Once in a while. Well, some particular player was very hot all day, and it just didn't let up. Do you know what that might be? I don't know what that was. Dick.
    18:26
    So, Bruce, who wants Stomp? Well, we have to go through the whole story first. Oh, God. I like how you just are drawing this out. Yeah, it's got it. You know, keeping the mystery going. 22, we qualified out of 44 players, 22 people qualified. Top two got the double bye. Top six got a single bye. And then we went right from us. Yeah, top six got a bye, and the top two got a double bye. And whose idea was that? Yours. Thank you. Yes. See, I thought of a tournament thing. Yay!
    19:03
    That's impressive for me. And the top qualifier was... Say it, Ron. Say it with gusto. Bruce Nightingale. Gale. Nightingale. And then we had our qualifying was done. And then we went right into... Almost like a half an hour, 45 minutes. We went right into the tournament. And who was fourth place in Stomp? Jerry Bernard. Upstate New York's own Jerry Bernard. Third place, Tyler, how do you spell his last name? Oz. Just this is the almighty, powerful Oz.
    19:43
    Second was, what's his name? East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. That really, really narrows it down. That's great. He's from upstate New York. He's from, if anybody goes upstate. Ed Zeltman was second. Thank you. I love to leave him hanging there. It's great. He was the last person in. He was number 44. He actually filled the spot. Yep. And you know what?
    20:10
    He was also, two years ago in the 24-hour at the Sanctum, when a player dropped out after the first round. He jumped in. Basically got a zero for the first round. And I believe he finished second. Yes, he did. So, Ed is the man if you need the last guy in. Guaranteed money. Yes. And who took first? You did, Dick.
    20:34
    Finally. Literally, he was so hot. We had the one round where we were doing the Papa style, like three-game, you know, four-player games. Three games doing the – what were we doing? We were doing four, three, two, one. Yes, and we had to do – and so we had to pick one game from bank one, which was older games. one game from Bank 2, which was from System 11 up to WPC.
    21:04
    And then 3 was all the newer games. And you cannot pick the games twice. Ever. I actually, TNA, best score ever on it. Yeah, tell them the whole story. So Bruce, he wins the first two games. So he's already on to the next round. So he decides to pick TNA, since he doesn't want to actually pick it if he needs a win. So he's just going to get it out of the way. Yeah, no. Makes strategic sense. Yeah, very. But how did you play your first ball, Bruce? Backwards. Then Ron comes up and he goes, you should play your balls. So I did. And what did I get? $3.7 million. You took your glasses off. I took my glasses off and I played and I got $3.7 million.
    21:45
    On two balls only. Yeah. But I did break two of Ron's games when we were there. Oh, what did you break? Remember TNA got all lost in the ball lock. Yeah, you break everything. Then we're playing dialed in, and what happened when we were playing it? It rebooted, which is never done before. But somehow, Bruce figures out a way to break every game. And the funny thing is, the software actually puts an asterisk next to the score who was playing that ball. See? Great code. I will say that part. It's asterisk, by the way. Just to correct you, because I like to. Aster. We did have some other problems where we tried to be smart with the, even with the air conditioning on from, like, hours ahead of time, it was still too hot. And we turned off games in between. Yeah, we would tell people to turn off games in between rounds and found out some of the games didn't like that. Yeah, some of the games don't like that. Stargazer didn't like that, so once I got that booted again, it was like, don't turn that one off. And Quicksilver didn't like it, so once I got that back on, don't turn that one off. And Stars. Oh, yeah, stars die right at the end. Yeah. After being on for like 12 hours straight. It's just like, ugh. So why'd you go with so many people being allowed to play? What, the 22 or the 44? The 44. Yeah, why, Bruce? Because we had demand. The demand, actually. Literally, it was supposed to be 32. Then we upped it to 36.
    23:18
    Then more people wanted in. Then we went to 44. Then we had people like, is there a wait list? Like, are you kidding? Holy crap. And we did 43 for the first stomp, so I knew we could support at least that many. And we put a couple games upstairs, and using the Match Play software, we forced it to assign those every round. So you got eight people out of the basement. Plus it was a nice day, so the deck was open. So crowd congestion really wasn't a problem.
    23:48
    Even the rig worked better than it ever has. Yep, it was really good. That was the first time I think we didn't have a single issue with the rig, with signal or anything. So you just need to upgrade your overall cooling system to support this one. Fans. Yes. Fans. Yeah. I'm going to bring fans. We're going to bring fans. Some big-ass fans. Circular air. Yeah. But it was a rousing success, and then soon we will have Stomp 3.5 West at the Silver Ball Saloon sometime probably either later this year or early next year, probably early next year, in the snow. In the snow, yeah. Oh, boy. Well, tournaments. That's a good segue. Let's talk about tournaments. I want to say something about tournament streams. Oh, the corner. No one wants to watch tournament streams. Nobody. No, seriously. I have found, and I know when Pinberg does this, people complain. What does Pinberg do? They basically stream. There's like semifinals and the finals, and that's it. and everyone's like, I won't do any of the qualifying. Why won't they do any of the other rounds? It's like, no. I feel less is more. Because you know how many people were watching the qualifying in our tournament, Bruce? Four. Three, maybe, that were sitting there, and they probably weren't even watching. We didn't actually get anyone watching until we got to the finals. Yep, and then they all wanted to see me. Me! But I literally feel like I'm streaming for no reason. What do you think, Dennis? You have your own stream. Yeah, I can see your point. I mean, one of the things we're getting ready for is KC GameCon pinball tournament here in November. And I live streamed it last year. We set up a double rig because I don't have a portable rig and I'm not spending that much money. So we set it up and did it. And it was a 10-hour stream. But, you know, up until finals, it was very rare to break 10 viewers. I did get a lot of requests, though, for people, not so much that they wanted the live stream, but that those who were at the event really wanted it recorded so they could go back and look later. So we're going to go ahead and do it again. But I'm not, other than making some improvements in terms of here's how I'm going to deal with the cameras, we're going to do things a little bit differently. Other than it's pretty much all structured just to make my life easier. So we'll still do it, but I'm not going to get all as hung up about it being perfect. But I was going to watch Stomp because I saw the little announcement, but I had a local tournament that day, and so I didn't get to see it because you guys were done by the time I was done. And how'd you do?
    26:28
    Well, I want you to imagine how you did at Stomp, Bruce, and not that. I just hit. Okay. That's what happens. I don't remember. Maybe I got fifth. I don't recall. Okay. Well, that's good. Well, what could we do to make tournament pinball more appealing? Have you contemplated ten custom games with no themes, designed and maintained by a crew of dedicated support at Stern? Wow, that sounds like a crazy idea. Whose idea was that? Probably someone who's never played in a single tournament in their entire life.
    27:04
    That's for this week in pinball, if you want to listen to Zach's views on tournaments. They are very interesting. you can't you can't say they're not creative um like what was the other one anything timed is just evil it just it ruins everything that is pinball you know the heads up format you guys have done with the stern electronics no because it's not real you mean literally heads up format the only one i could ever see any like non-pinhead wanting to watch i well i would lean towards your interpretation, Ron. My understanding is Zach believes that the problem with regular competitive pinball is that y'all ain't marketing it right. If you just tried harder, it would work.
    27:47
    No. No one wants to watch this shit, except hardcore pinheads. Yeah, what you need to do is you gotta record it all, then edit it, and bring it down to 45 or 30 minutes. Or actually 22 minutes. No, 22. Yeah, like poker when they would film six-hour boring-as-fuck games and then show, like, the five to ten minutes of actual hands that meant something. And even that, how long did that last? What was the poker thing? That was for, like, a year. I was like, for a year, that was a big deal, and that was it. And World Poker Tour came out, and everyone was like, we don't care anymore. It's too late. That was like a sleeper game that everyone loves. Yeah. People get it, and they're like, this was really a Steve Ritchie? He had drop targets? Yeah. So you're not keen on the 10 custom unthemed? No. I still haven't figured out why they needed to be unthemed, but it seemed to be driven by his belief that all existing pinball machines have code flaws that make them ineligible to be viable for broadcast. It was also you can't stream them like in a major, like a broadcast network because they have intellectual properties on them. The same reason that usually when they have pinball machines in movies, They, like, change the back glass, make every game an EM, even when it's not. I mean, there's a firepower that's in a Star Trek episode, and it's got a different back glass and makes chime noises. Oh, they always got to make chime. Nothing says pinball like chime noises. Yes.
    29:18
    I think Haley George, noted tournament player, it might have been on Pinball Profile, one of those shows once, where he basically just said, like, no one's going to watch tournament pinball. It's just pinball. No one cares. When people watch, like, Jack Danger stream, they're not watching it to watch pinball. They're watching it to watch Jack Danger. Yeah, no, I do agree with that. It feels like whenever I stream, it's less about people aren't really responding so much to my play. It's more about interacting with the chat. The chat. Yep, 100%. And the only format I've seen so far that I could see non-pinheads giving a shit about is the heads-up format, where it's like you've got the two games, you give them a goal, and you say go. And it's very easy to understand.
    30:09
    And that's the only format I see. What do you think, Bruce? I think you should just do one ball. You're still with the one ball thing. Okay. I am. One and done. Fast games. What happens if it's Paragon and it's literally five seconds?
    30:25
    Boom. Shaka-laka. Okay. Is that really a sign of skilled overs? You would keep it in play if you had skill. No, no. It's called a house ball. That's why you get more than one ball. That's a stupid answer.
    30:38
    Okay. What do you mean two on early solid stakes? That actually happened to me at a tournament. It was run Pinberg style, and then I tied for second at the end of the finals. And so the rule that was imposed was we got one ball if the game had a ball save or two balls if it wasn't. You got $6 million manned, as I call it. That's what happened to me. Tiebreaker. Except I'm trying to remember what EM we ended up randomly getting. It was ridiculous. It was like six people tied. It was like, so six people tied for five spots. so we're going to play one game on Six Million Dollar Man because a full game would take so long and I got a house ball I never touched the ball and guess who was last that still burns me I've got to bring that up every 10 episodes and you love that game to this day yeah I really love that game to this day every time I see that, that's literally all I think of I mean I'd say other than I think Heads Up makes a lot of sense but with the challenge of getting two of the same game in some locations. The other alternative that pops to my mind is timed games, where it's kind of like how the pinball arcade used to run tournaments in their software, where you can say you get three balls or, say, up to three minutes to put up the highest score you can, and then you just keep it moving. Because the other thing I think is a big problem with trying to watch pinball tournaments is they don't run on time. No, they do not. Even with all the science that Pinberg puts into trying to keep their banks balanced, there are still struggles. And they've got, like, mathematicians doing that stuff. And it's like, with pinball, like, the better you are, the longer it takes. Which is, like, the opposite of every other game in sport out there, yeah. Oh, sport. So is pinball a sport, Dennis? I oscillate on that. I'm currently going with no. That's a good answer because it's correct. I don't agree with that one. It really depends on the definition.
    32:39
    That's just because you overloaded Ron's house. It's not athletic enough for it to be an athletic game, and athletic games are sports. That's the definition. He unloaded on my house, that's for sure. Oh, I did. Three times.
    32:55
    Does he have a job out with the area farms from all his crop dusting skills? Yes. No, no, no, no, no. I broke Ron's first rule that he said this for the tournament. don't poop in his house. But I stayed over, so I had to poop. Yeah, you get a pass. But yes, Bruce, so you consider it a sport, all just the top athletes that we had at the event? Yes, of course. I don't, I really, even if I don't go with the athletic aspect to the definition, I personally really struggle with the idea of any sort of sport you can play while drinking beer. Yeah, honestly, I struggle with anything that I'm actually decent at. I can't see how it could possibly be a sport. So we think tournaments timed might be good. Heads-up challenge might be good. It's just going to be hard. I don't think you're ever going to be able to do this as a live event. It's going to have to be something, like we said, where you just record everything and you just do like a highlight package. It's really short, and that's it. Yeah, not for mass consumption. I don't think, we can't do tournaments the way we're doing them if you want them as a live, mass-consumed thing. We either have to change the game, or you have to edit it and poker it. Pokering it is the best.
    34:15
    The players themselves, like, when they get eliminated, most of the time they just leave. They don't watch the finals. Yep, that's what I do. I'm like, I'm... Yeah, it's like, and if they're not watching the finals, why are we watching the finals?
    34:28
    So, let's see, what else do we got here? Well, speaking of tournaments, pinball points were posted. Pinbird points were posted. Is everyone excited? Are you excited, Bruce? Yay. I'm excited. I went from, like, 380th in the world to, like, 356th. There you go. Isn't that great? Yeah. But I'm going to enjoy keeping in the thousands for a little bit longer now. Under a thousand, I mean. Because the points from Pinberg got me to 910 now. So you can get a game. Well if I make it to the end of the year For the IFPA discount Are you going to get Stern Star Wars so you can actually earn good coin drop at the Silver Ball Saloon No Come on, Bruce. It makes money. People love Star Wars. It does, but it's still a crappy game. I'm telling you, you wouldn't have to take apart the Star Wars carousel. That's true. I mean, what's going to break on the Star Wars? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? The TIE Fighter falls off the spring. Big deal.
    35:32
    No, thank you. No? Nope. I'd rather get Deadpool, if anything. Oh, I do like Deadpool. It is funny. See? Yes, see? I do like Deadpool. See? So? I really like Deadpool. I think it's better than Star Wars by far. I personally agree, though I think your coin drop would be better with Star Wars. Oh, I agree, too, but I really like Deadpool, Bruce. Like, maybe I'll be using my IFPA discount soon. Like, maybe you'll have to sell a gamer on to make room for Deadpool. No, he's got plenty of room down there. No, I don't. I do not have more room. I'm on a one-in-one-out basis at this point. So that brings me to the question, what games should I sell? Cue music that I don't have. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Okay, what games should I sell, Bruce? Now, I have to ask you this question. Do you try to get a pro or a premium? Premium. Okay. So you have to think of what you're going to sell to make that exact money back up. No. I'm not going by that. I'm going more by room. I need to free up a spot. Okay. And before you say anything, all the classic sterns are off the table. None of them are going anywhere. I mean, I have a certain image to uphold. So do I. Mm-hmm. So either it'd be one of two.
    36:52
    Number one, TNA. Kick that fucking bitch to the door. Okay. Two, if you're going to sell a game and you sell it to me, next generation. So I can just annoy Zach every day.
    37:07
    Wow. Okay. Dennis, what game should I sell? Because clearly you know my entire collection. Of course. I just haven't. I actually was going to suggest Next Gen to be the one to get rid of. It's inferior to Stern Star Trek anyway. I can't believe you went with Next Gen. And you're tired of working on it. Just let it go. and sell it to Bruce. Yeah, sell it to Bruce. Sure. But, Bruce, that game goes for more money now, right? That's like a $3,000 game now. What? That's the game. There's more than that. Oh, okay. So you're giving more than that? But, luckily, I have an ace in the hole. Oh, what's your ace in the hole?
    37:48
    Quicksilver. Oh, what are you saying? So if I give that to you and, what? It would discount some money off, though. What do you mean it would discount some money? I should get the Quicksilver entirely if I do that. No, you're not listening to me. I would give you money and your portion of the Quicksilver. No, you would give me money and your portion of the Quicksilver. Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Yes.
    38:11
    Wow, that's tempting. See? And then I'd still be able to annoy Zach all the time. Well, no, the game would be out of order half the time, so you wouldn't be making any money.
    38:22
    It almost got through the tournament without an issue, but it did have one. I forgot how many balls I have issue. Oh, my. Yeah.
    38:30
    Huh, wow. So we're seeing a consensus here. Because I was going down the row, and I was thinking things like, you know, Black Knight. That's my first game. I can't sell that. You know, Stars, no. What about World Cup Soccer? No, too fun. Oh, God, no. Too fun. And I got the Rams for it. I still got to put those in. That's true. I just thought maybe you were ready to. What about Dracula? Dracula was on the list. Because, you know, I really. Not a bad one. I don't love Dracula. I keep it to, like, punish people. And I'm a masochist. I like the pain that it gives out. And my father always likes playing it. Like, before he leaves, he always wants to play a couple games of Dracula. And I say, what's wrong with you? Why do you want to play that game?
    39:14
    That was one of the other ones I was thinking. But, yeah, I was thinking next time. So I think we're going to have to make a deal offline here. I'm liking what I'm hearing. So guess what? I put my twister up for trade or sale on Pinside. And I have somebody asking if he wants to trade a Last Action Hero. Ooh. I like that. I like a Last Action Hero. See, that's what I'm saying. We do, yes. I say go for that. I said, give me some pictures. Mm-hmm. That's the one I'm interested in right now. Last Action Hero, which we incorrectly identified as a widebody. Yes, we did. Because we suck. Yeah, but it does have flop flippers to get access to those sides. It's got a lot in there. Oh, it does. That's like the ultra, that's the collector's edition now. Crock full of nuts is that heavenly coffee.
    40:06
    So, going through the list here, what game should I sell? Man, it seems like universally Star Trek Next Gen is getting the vote. I didn't even get a chance to go through the games. You both agreed. Hmm.
    40:18
    Classic Stern remakes. We had the Sea Witch Beatles. Do we think there's more coming? So you're aware that George Gomez, I believe last week, was on one of the Twitch streams, the Flippin' Out stream, and he did bring up that they've been discussing the idea of doing a certain classic line. Doesn't sound like they've moved forward with it. No, what I heard was drop targets are really expensive. Well, the mechs, not the little targets themselves. The drop targets are expensive. These things cost more than people think they do. He even mentioned a motor, which I'm trying to think, other than like Viper and, what is it, High Hand, Hot Hand, like what Stern games had a motor in it? I don't know. But what I heard, see, the way I took that is you're not going to see a classic Stern game without a new theme on it. Yeah, which sucks. You're not going to see Quicksilver. You're going to see some new game, some theme with the Quicksilver play field. Yeah, that would be my take. They spent a lot of that time speaking about how much the cost of the game was also driven by the Beatles license. And obviously, if they went and revisited, assuming Gary has those rights, all those, you know, my understanding is he does or he does in partnership with his ex-wife, the rights to the certain electronics titles, then you would think, oh, well, we don't have to rethink and we'll save a whole bunch of money on that. I also think, though, that it will be Beatles-fied, and that is every layout will not be just a copy and paste, but it will be remastered as well. I agree.
    41:55
    And, Bruce, have you heard the rumor of what's coming next? No. Really? I heard it multiple places. I even heard it during Stomp.
    42:05
    I was busy. Oh. Okay. So I've heard the – it's the Quicksilver led Zeppelin rumor. Oh, I heard that. Yeah. Oh, God. Shoot me in the cock. Please, we have guests, Bruce. Apologize. I'm apologizing for shooting myself in the cock.
    42:24
    Oh, good Lord. Quicksilver is Led Zeppelin. I mean, they're a good cover band. Oh, God. They're terrible.
    42:33
    See, I would debate who owns the rights to their music. Because they've been sued so many times for so many of their songs. Who actually owns the rights? Yeah, I know. But did they lose their suits? I don't remember. Okay, for those out there, Led Zeppelin's, like, first album might have, like, one original song on it. Everything else was ripped off, usually from some old blues musician. And at least one of them lawyered up and sued their ass and got credit on a couple songs. The guy that did, like, Dazed and Confused, which they totally ripped off, he sued them eventually. like 50 years later. I guess he never heard Dazed and Confused, their version, which I find just considerable.
    43:20
    Yeah. So he sued and he won. So I would assume his name is somewhere in the credits now. So I wonder how that worked. How do you not know someone ripped off your song? When is that known of a song? And if you ever heard this guy's the original, like it is the entire intro is almost a direct copy. Yeah, I've heard the comparison. I've seen the comparison video on YouTube of that one. That one was, yeah. They took off. There used to be a really good one that not only would it have, because some of them are really reaching for, like, the similarities. This one had, like, concrete, like, this is obviously a ripoff. This is who they ripped it off from. This is probably how they got it, because several of them were, like, you know, the Yardbirds who Jimmy Page was with toured with this band or this act, and this is probably where he heard it and then got it, et cetera. That video's not there anymore.
    44:12
    It was probably pulled due to rights issues. But with Quicksilver, all this goes away. Yeah. How many, let's see, how many letters are in Led Zeppelin and how many letters are in Quicksilver? Same. It is? It is. It is? It is. I don't think so. Hold on. Let me count this. Led Zeppelin. LED. Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. And how many letters in Quicksilver? U-U-I-C-K-S-I-L-V-E-R. Oh, my God. It's the same number of letters. No, no, no. Wait a second. Ron can count to 11. We just found out. I can. It goes to 11. Da-da-da. Cashmere multiball. Da-da-da. Isn't that great? Yellow Desert Stream. So when's the ELO game coming out? Say if there was going to be an ELO game, Bruce, which re-theme would you want? Which classic stern? No, I would actually want Cheetah. We're going wide body. So ELO is going to be Cheetah. Yes, because you get that stupid ugly woman off, you put the nice emblem of the ELO ship. Ugly woman? That's so offensive, Bruce. Apologize. Well, she's ugly. I apologize to our viewers. Okay, she's homely and ugly. How's that better? Oh.
    45:38
    I should just stop, shouldn't I? And they could re-theme Orbiter One as Black Eyed Peas. There you go. Because it's all going down the toilet.
    45:51
    Actually, Orbiter One could be like Grateful Dead because you've got to be stoned to play it. Pull the plunger. Yeah. Shoot a pinball. All right. Hey, Ghostbusters Code. It's out, Bruce. Have you updated the Ghostbusters at Silver Ball Saloon? It's going to be updated tomorrow for next month's high score tournament. Wow. Where is Silver Ball Saloon, by the way? I keep forgetting. Dennis, where is the Silver Ball Saloon? I think it's in beautiful upstate New York, 135 West Commercial Street in East Rochester. Woo!
    46:28
    I do listen. Either he listened or it took that long for him to bring it up on his browser. Oh, I'm afraid that my audacity will crash if I dare not open it.
    46:38
    That's funny. So, did you see that stream? Who saw that stream? They also did a dead flip stream where they showed the new code. Who saw that? I missed it. I missed that one. Not at all. But I read the Killforum summary of the changes. Yes, they did. And they basically made everything easier. I hear there's like up to five ball saves now. Yeah, there's actually like two ball saves at the beginning of every ball, which they should do that on Star Wars. Oh, my God, yes. Yes, I agree. Yeah, because I'm watching this. They showed it. Basically, it starts with the initial ball saver. You drain, ball saver comes back on. Drain again, then you get it back again. And I'm thinking, like, man, that's perfect on Star Wars. Of course, then all your tournament types, you know, then they would, like, use it to get that multiplier up quicker. Oh, tournament scum. Yes, tournament scum. It's like Star Wars, tournament scum. I'll deal with your tournament friends soon enough. Yes. If the door's closed, move to the next one. I love that. Hold on two seconds, guys. Hold on. Hold on. Oh, Bruce is leaving us again in the middle of a good show. He's probably going to go carry more fans. Yes, yes. He's working on the fans. Yes, he's bringing fans up to the roof. To keep them cool. Workers attire. He's probably pulling the topper off Whirlwind as we speak.
    48:01
    We'll keep going. Screw him. Whirlwind, Whirlwind, I want to play the Industrial Blower Whirlwind again I didn't know that that was a thing Yeah, it's at California Extreme every year, which I don't really go to anymore but it was Industrial Blower in place of the fan, so when you feel the power of the wind you really feel the power of the wind you have to struggle to stay up to the game, it blows that hard it's awesome They also have the Adams family that is connected to an exercise bike And you control the power Of the flippers via the bike So the faster you pedal The more powerful the flippers are I don't know See this is the stuff that people will spectate Yes see people would spectate that I want to see some of the pinheads on there That would not be I'll show you real quick Why this isn't a sport There better be an ambulance ready keep that adrenaline in right by there clear using the bike pedal to charge up the paddles because I can tell you I do stair climbing I do aerobic stuff and for me it was like it was tiresome near the end oh my god because you got to keep it going fast to get like normal flipper power yeah I mean it's like if you're trying to get it up to 50 volts or whatever I'm imagining, I mean, it depends what they got hooked up to do, serve as the generator. And I'm curious about it now. But it does sound exhausting, and I am ever so lazy. There's a video of, I think I have a video out on my own channel, Gizmonic. Again, Mystery Science Theater reference. So if you search for Gizmonic on YouTube, I think I have a California stream video with Bruce on the bike doing it.
    49:53
    I think he gets multiball, too. So are you the secret founder to Gizmodo, the tech site? I am not. Oh. So the Ghostbusters code is out. I mean, it just makes a lot of things easier. Like the skill shot is split into two, so you have the lane skill shot. But if you hit stuff up there, it doesn't turn off the lower shots. Yeah, so now you can do both. Yeah, so you're not in purgatory. You never have to spell ghost again, I guess, if you just hit the target once. Yeah, it's a one hit and Slimer's out. Emote's complete when you drain, unless it's the last one in the ladder. It's not going to do anything for the flipper gap. It's not going to do anything to keep the ball from bouncing over the in-lane guides, but it will at least give you some more ball savers, hopefully make the game a little more fun. Yeah, it sounds like Dwight tried to program out the flipper gap with that. And I actually want to play it now. And my second league that I'm in, they have a Ghostbusters there. The code comes out literally that day on Facebook. I see it was replaced with a Star Trek. Now, is this the league where there are two pins? No, we're up to four. But it's not that league. It's another league in another location, and they have four pins. Okay. So both my leagues, we have four games. You're expanding. That's the renaissance, right? Yes, it is the renaissance. And now at this location, they have Star Trek. They have Star Wars. They have Deadpool. And Striker Extreme.
    51:22
    Oh, you know, I finally got to at TPF play Striker Extreme, and I see why it's disliked, but it also isn't the worst game I've ever played. No, it's not that. And the music is kind of catchy.
    51:33
    I think it is. I think they were really reaching when they decided to re-theme it as an NFL football game. Yeah, and the thing is, I think Striker Extreme was like their Stern's first game as Stern. Yeah. And they really let you know, is the guy's wearing like a Stern t-shirt, and it's like Stern. Everything is, Stern is everywhere. Stern. the extreme brand. The extreme brand. Before they were the lifestyle brand, they were the extreme. No fear. Stern extreme. No fear. Yeah, and that's where I've been playing a lot of Deadpool. It just shoots so different than like all the other freaking, all the other games. That was my letdown with Elvira. It was just like, I started getting this habit of, hey, they're not spitting out a whole bunch of fans all the time. Except for Jurassic Park. That also plays different. Yeah, and it's not a fan. and it's got more than two flippers, so. But I'm not, like, really into dinosaurs. Unless it's Godzilla. You know what I mean? Yeah, and he's, you know, more kaiju than dinosaur. Yeah. And, I mean, I like silly theme games. Like, Dialed In is just a lot of humor. It's really silly. Dialed In's my favorite J.J.P. Oh, yeah. But then it rebooted on Bruce, and his hate only grew stronger. The time it ever did that. And it grew stronger. What is with his irrational hatred of dialed in and total nuclear annihilation? And I'm sitting there, like, doing the stream, and he couldn't wait. It's like he turned around and I was smiling in his face, like, look, look, here's your dialed in. It was like, I won. Yeah, it's like I won. Before he even won the tournament, he knew he won the moment he failed. Like, what did you win? You get nothing. You lose, Ron. You lose. I wonder if Bruce is hiring another bartender or something. Does he have to do that a lot? You're fired! I wonder how Bruce handles terminations. If he's like, does he just walk up to him and say, shoot yourself in the cock?
    53:27
    Do you know the scary thing is, I'm sure if we asked him, he would tell us. I bet he would, but I don't know if you want to go and beep that much. No, no, no. Well, while we're waiting, Suncoast Pinball. They're done. Wah, wah, yeah. Well, kind of. I mean, it is a Chapter 11 reorganization. Chapter 11. They got everyone's games to them except for four people, and they've advised those people to just submit as claimants as debtors on the bankruptcy. It's smart. Yeah. It's a shame. No one likes to see that happen. It is, but I'm glad that it seems like relatively early in the struggle, they're like, nope, this isn't working. We're going to go through bankruptcy, reorganize the debt, and get as much of this paid back as we can. It's not a Dutch situation. No, Dutch. Talk about how not to do it 101. I still say it's because it's a European thing. Oh, do you think so? You think it's cultural? It's wholly cultural. The way Barry talks about stuff, just the flippant way, it's definitely cultural. Bruce could tell you some stories. Okay. About the Netherlands.
    54:31
    Oh, yeah, you bastard. Yeah. The Netherlands is a different world. Yes, it is. Because I've always sort of assumed that my take on Barry is that he's very much in sort of a denial state of thinking that there's some path here. Yeah, both. Both. Yeah, both. Like, ARA could have bought him out, and they could have made the games. If I remember, that was one of the offers on the table, and he's like, nope. Yeah, it was for a 51% stake, probably to take full leadership control, but they didn't want it in. Now, they had plenty of opportunities to have a reasonable chance of salvaging this project, or at the very least, calling it quits and giving people back pennies on the dollar. And now there are essentially no assets, well, other than the bucket of parts that they got. And I just think it's like, I mean, I guess it's a little better situation than it was in the midst of the lawsuit with Aura, but it's not like it was two years ago. So the problem was they thought they were going to win and they didn't. They were. But they didn't even let me. OK, this is I don't know. I'm not. I got him going. I'm going there. You see that? Bruce, not to get on a fucking rant here, but come on. It's Aura Levy, the lawsuit. Of course they thought they were going to win. I can't understand it. If Dutch was so sure, they should have litigated. They should have opened Salvo instead of going to Zytec without any research. Because they had all this stuff over with Ara. So if Dutch was confident, in my mind, they should have sued and said, no, I'm living in the lawsuit against you, Ara. You're trash. You're wronging us. You broke the contract. Instead, Ara takes them to court. And the moment that happened, I was like, I know who thinks they're really got the winning hand here. And it sure as hell ain't Dutch. No, it wasn't at all. I do that. I mean, they really did believe it, and they just bought into their own line of, well, you know, we don't want to waste resources. It's like, they have 40 games. The 40 games. You can't just walk away from that much asset. Mm-hmm. Well, what do I know? I'm just American.
    56:31
    American. Bruce, if you buy our bartenders, how do you do it? Are you gentle? Oh, it wasn't last night. Wait a minute. Another one? No, no, no, no, no. I wanted to kill one of my customers that came in, and one of the bartenders had to hold me back. Bruce, you realize we're recording, right? Oh, yeah. I wanted to kill him. Why did you want to kill one of your patrons? Did he say that Star Wars is a better game? No, it's just a long story, but let's just say I don't get along with this guy, and I told him three past times not to come in here anymore, and he thinks he just owns the place and comes in here. Well, don't you own the place? Yes. There you go. Surprise twist. It's the landlord. Dun, dun, dun. It's actually my wife.
    57:20
    Oh, okay. So he wasn't the one who wrote the five-star review that's in the mailbox right now? No. Okay. See, told you. We're getting five stars still, though. Yep. Yes, you are. Are they still going to the slam-tilt email? Yeah, he refuses to fix it. He refuses to fix the damn thing. Bruce, why do you burden Ron with these? Oh, I love it. You know, it's like you won't even do polls on Facebook anymore, or you lie about them. I put them up. You just lose. I put them up, even though you can't see them. And then I say I took them down. Yeah, okay. You can block people. You can block, yeah. He has this whole thing about, yeah, okay.
    57:59
    Have you gone to the Dutch School of Denial? Yes. Okay. I am going to make the best poll ever. Will you sell access to your poll for $12,500? And if I get in on it, will you eventually give me the original poll that I can then either sell myself or you can pay me the original amount back for participating in said poll? I don't know why Dutch hasn't won the Twippy.
    58:23
    For best what? For favorite what? Favorite BS artist. Board issues, Bruce. They're only board issues. That's why we're having the delays. Yes, exactly. But does anyone remember that? Oh, I do. I still harp on it from time to time because that was the big lie. For those who don't know what we're talking about, when the Bigelbaskos were originally delayed, Dutch said it's board issues, issues with the boards. And they blamed ARA. Yeah, it was a buy-time strategy because they were actually struggling to compensate ARA for the, you know, that was where the contract dispute was happening and ARA was winning more money. but by being disingenuous now no one trusts anything that comes out of dutch pinball by and large because it's like well you've already shown a propensity to lie when you don't want to if you're uncomfortable with what the truth is so how can we trust you now it's really stupid really stupid decision yes all right next thing i got here it's kind of part of the news segment but this was actually I think a week ago a week and a half ago who here saw the this was on the This Week in Pinball podcast hi Jeff Dennis doesn't have to say hi he's already on there he's worthy I'm not moonlighting on another podcast Jeff don't worry but it was the statement from Deep Root from Robert Mueller the president did you see this the interview that Jeff had with him So you actually read this, and I assume, I mean, Dennis, you had to have read this. It's Twit. Well, I did, though. I think they talked about that when Dwight was on the podcast, but I did read it, yeah. So, I mean, some of these statements, I mean, he's still going full bore with, you know, we're going to kick ass. I almost feel like it's a little overconfidence like Dutch has. Except they haven't taken anyone's money yet. That's the difference. I agree with that, but guess what? They still have the same over-cockiness. over cockiness. Okay. The truth. But I like the one statement. If you want to get in on the... I'm confused about this statement. Other pinball manufacturers interested in licensing the Deep Root Package of Innovations should email sales at deeproot.com. What is the Deep Root Package of Innovations? What are you... It must be big and full and lots of power in the front. Are you saying it could be utilized by other pinball manufacturers? Yeah, so that means... And Robert Mueller, you know, responds because, as we all know, remember, we did this as a wrestling bit before. And Robert says... You know, brother, it would take you at least five years and tens of millions of capital for other manufacturers to catch up with the nearly 200-year basis we're planning to do. Yeah, unless they chose to flat-out copy us. We are more than happy to share the license. It's the summer of a deep-root package. We will show off at lunch. Lunch? Lunch. We also want to support smaller boutique manufacturers in being able to get access to the economies of scale, to increase the quality of their game, or lowering the price, dude. It's interesting that, so he doesn't consider their company a boutique manufacturer. Yeah, no, which hasn't made one pinball machine. But it hasn't taken any money yet. I don't care about that. You've been bragging about that for two years, that you're going to make the best pinball machine out there. They said they're going to have a play field that's going to have a 10-year warranty.
    61:43
    Yeah. That's like insane. What are they going to make the play fields out of? TVs. TVs? I don't even get what that means. Like digital, like video. I don't know.
    61:56
    I don't understand how they're going to do this. Hold on for two seconds, you guys. Hold on for me. Oh, my phone was ringing, so I don't know what that was. I put mine on mute. I do, too. Mine was on mute. I just thought, brr, brr, brr, brr, brr, and vibrating. And I flipped mine upside down. Oh, wow. No, I lied. Sorry. So what do you think, Dennis? What could they be making the playfields out of that would be a 10-year warranty? Oh, yeah. I remember back when I had Robert on Eclectic Gamers, he mentioned the sledgehammer. That's where that sledgehammer statement originally came from, or a hammer. I don't know. Yeah, he's going to have a hammer at launch, and he's going to damage the playfield. And now it's the hammer. It's like hashtag the hammer. I have it. I just thought of it. You know how we have a steel ball rolling on a wood playfield? we're going to have a steel playfield with a wooden ball.
    62:49
    Okay, Dennis, give me a real answer because that's a certain thing. There's been some thought that perhaps it's a hardtop, kind of like those hardtop protectors. I mean, that would – because there's plenty of other materials, like what you use for, like, pickup truck bed liners and stuff, but all of it's pretty pricey. and if they're planning to go in under the price point of a Stern Pro, at least on some of the games, which had been suggested at one stage by Robert, then the thought is it has to be something affordable. So plastic overlay, something along those lines, that would probably, again, I don't know how that withstands, well, I mean, if the hammer's a rubber mallet, maybe, or some sort of plastic, you know, go back to the plastic playfield concept. It was pricey back in the 80s, but maybe at this point the technology's advanced enough that you could have a wood playfield with a plastic surface instead of the last layer of plywood or something. I don't know.
    63:48
    Only time will tell. And that will happen in two months? The Houston Arcade Expo? Yeah. I thought it was interesting the suggestion about the 10-year warranty on the games. Yeah. That's a long warranty for a jacket. Long time. It's been such a long time.
    64:08
    Boston. Stargazer, the next re-theme. Oh, that'd be cool. I like that better. You like that better? I do. I'm sure they're just clamoring for the Boston re-theme.
    64:21
    If only they can get it from American Pinball, their first licensed title. What do we think their first licensed title's going to be? Sherlock Holmes?
    64:31
    That's not licensed. It's just the known... The free... Right. Public domain. Yes. Public domain theme. non-original theme but unlicensed which is their I mean I hear they've got plans to start doing a license I gotta think it's gonna be I don't think they're gonna go whole hog so I think they're gonna want to dip their toe in on something either relatively obscure or old enough that it just doesn't and something that doesn't command you know something that's cheap but I mean that's I'm being wordy but that's what I'm thinking something really cheap like GoBots It's like, well, no, Transformers is too much. Let's do Gobots. Hey, I'd like to Gobots. They have human brains. I love Gobots, too. They have human brains.
    65:15
    God, I remember that. Oh, that's so bad that I remember that. Thundercats. Oh, Snarf. Yes. Oh, God. I could play Snarf for them, and they'll save money. Thunder. Thundercats. Oh, come on, Bruce. Voltron.
    65:33
    Voltron. Oh, God. Yeah, the American one or the much more graphic Japanese version? Japanese version with the cars. Well, no. They're both Japanese. Yeah, but they're both Japanese. Everyone wanted the lions of Cymbal. No, I don't want the lions. No one wants that cheap, let's take the 20 cars and build Voltron. Yeah, except Bruce. Except Bruce.
    65:58
    If you want to go Japanese animation, let's go either with GeForce, which is really gotcha, man. or Starblazers, which is, you know, the spaceship Yamato.
    66:11
    Yeah, they're going to go Japanese animation. I would, if I were them, I would do Cowboy Bebop, because it's got a lot of crossover appeal. Or Robotron. What was that? Not Robotron, but... Yeah, well, Robotron from the 80s. I remember that. Oh, yeah. With Minmay. Let her sing her song. Yes.
    66:27
    I was like, what the fuck? I just walked in. I'm like, no, I'm sure Cowboy Bebop. I don't know what the Robotron one is. Oh, God. Yeah, it was a series from the 80s. I think it was like a 24-episode arc or something. Yep, it was. Where there was like a cannon in Alaska that was a weapon. It was shot into space. Was it powerful enough to destroy a planet? It was powerful enough the beam could bend. It could actually turn after you fired it. It didn't work like a laser at all. I was very confused. Yeah, we were.
    66:57
    Okay. Repairs, Bruce. I have one ongoing. The flipper board blew up on RoboCop. I have three bad transistors, and unfortunately, they are IRF9530 transistors.
    67:17
    Of course they are. What does that mean, Bruce? They're hard to get? I've never seen them before, it is. So I didn't have any spares, and I had to order them from Marco. They have them laced, and I should be getting them in a couple days, and then I'll put them in and I'll see what caused it to blow up. The coils are good. So I don't know if somebody was just sitting there with the flipper up and just blew the transistor and blew something else out or something else, like a chip took out something else. Don't know yet. Cleaned some machines this week.
    67:45
    And that's it. Yeah. Oh, and whodunit, the left flipper was not returning back properly and I went inside there and it was only hanging by one wood screw. Oh, like the entire plate? Yeah, the whole plate was stuck. Wow, okay. Fill those holes in, Bruce. Yeah, I did. I glued all the sticks in, got it all tightened back up, and it's been going for a couple days now, so we'll see. You glued the sticks in? Yep. Okay. Any repairs, Dennis?
    68:14
    I mean, you have all these got leaves. They probably never, ever break. The got leaves are done. They've got their grounding mods in. I think they're okay. Yeah, I lost the bottom segments on Player 3 and 4 on firepower, and the R11 resistor was clearly overheated. So it appears my Player 4 display has a short behind the glass, so I have ordered an LED kit to replace those, and that just arrived today. LEDs, oh no! The LED little, like, wolfpack, you know, solder on the, you know, build them yourself sort of thing. So I have a question here. Uh, sure. Screw my repairs. Okay. Go ahead, do your repairs, and I'll ask the question. Uh, I don't have any. Go ahead. But what about dialed in and it's rebooting? It did that once. Wow. That's a Bruce effect. Okay. So, I have a question here. Everyone's seen Blues Brothers, right? Yep. Okay. And what's one of the most famous scenes in the movie?
    69:14
    There are several, Bruce. You need to be more specific. Like the apartment blowing up? Nope. Driving your car through a mall. Oh, okay. Okay, yes. Okay, I'm going to do that one. Sure. Just happened again in Chicago today. What, someone drove a car through a mall and destroyed stuff? Were they filming Blues Brothers 3000? I don't know. I hope not.
    69:38
    Oh, come on. John Goodman wants another chance, man. He was blowing their, and it was in Chicago. What the hell's going on? And they charged terrorism. Well, yeah, I guess so. Was that playing while he was going I'm not sure they were going to hit him With just like a parking violation Mild moving violation Do you have the Miss Piggy That's my favorite line Which is funny because Miss Piggy is in the movie Yes Frank Oz is right in the beginning Yes he is Okay so I buy that Oh wait a minute You have actual I buy that No I tell people you keep on buying all the cheap shit and I can find anything else now on I buy that So fuck you all. Wow.
    70:29
    I apologize to our listeners for Bruce. How many do we have left? None now that you said that. Fuck yeah. See what I have to put up with, Dennis? It sounds very exhausting. No wonder you only do the show every once in a while. I mean, hey, he only had to ask me this time once. That's true. That's because it was fan day and you were going to be there anyway. I mean, how do you feel, Dennis? I mean, you're bullied by Zach all the time. I mean, yeah. He is a bully. I can't believe Dwight Sullivan told Zach he wasn't a bully. Of course, there was this long pregnant pause while he tried to think of a nice way to tell a bully that he's not a bully. Yeah, it's very exhausting. That's why I only do that one every other week. Of course, he was nice to me. I wonder why. He's nice to most of the guests. your known quantity in the sense, Ron, that your knowledge base in pinball is seen as very, very high, and you have this persona as a very serious person, so.
    71:26
    Bruce may know the truth, but I don't know. Maybe Zach was buttering you up, hoping to get a few voices out of you. I don't know. Someone always does that. It's great. I don't know. But, like, now when he had Crystal Gimnick on, he had Dwight on, and then he gives them nicknames and asks them if it was okay. He asks for permission. I don't get asked permission. I'm the Charlie Brown of podcasts.
    71:52
    Everybody just pulls the football away from me and kicks me in the nuts. Although me and Bruce are wearing our Dennis Creasel t-shirts right now.
    72:01
    You know that they actually are releasing t-shirts? Oh, you're kidding. No, I'm not. God, no, no. Not with my face on them. Okay. I still want to do the shirt that Mrs. Penn gave me. Yes, because I know after saying I would never have a shirt with my face on it, Mrs. Penn found the one exception. That is the one exception. She really did good on that one. She's very, very talented. And now she's got, like, this whole, like, sweatshop thing going on, I think, with her kids making trophies. Oh, yes, she does. She is slave labor. No, she's teaching again. I know. That's why the kids are now enlisted in making the trophies, because she's got the day job and she gets home. You better make your quota, kids. We need some trophies for Stomp now. Yeah. That doesn't look like Wonder Woman. Try it again, crush. All right, we're going to go to the ball bag. The male ball bag.
    72:56
    And no reaction from Bruce. Nope. You missed your cue. No, you didn't like it last time. You keep on thinking it's creepy. Well, yeah, it is. But it's kind of your thing. See, this is the side effect of the bullying. Yeah, I don't see now. Now there's all the back, and everyone. Okay. Now I'm just going to be myself, and this will be very quiet. No, you're not being yourself. Yeah, yourself is quiet. I'd just like to thank our listeners. They sent a lot of ideas for segments in, which we will probably be using in the future episodes. We will be ripping you off. Well, you've actually sent them to us, so I guess it's not ripping you off, but you get the idea. You inspired them with your call to arms. Mm-hmm. Yes.
    73:40
    We have a... Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Robbie, shut up. Robbie has sent us several cool ideas, and we will definitely be using some of these. So thank you. And he's going to be at Expo this year. Hope to see you there, Ron. Oh, no. Is he going to give me a hug? I hope not. I hope so. Give Ron the hugs. No, don't. Why didn't he hope to see Bruce? Well, Bruce never goes anywhere. I'm... He does. He drives like 20 hours to pick up a game and then turn right back around and go back home. Oh, wait, wait, Dennis. That's later on in the episode. Oh, my God. Wait a minute. You did this again? All right. So, John Cosson, Dr. John. He was... Night, night. Remember last week when we were talking about the top 100, or actually we were talking about the top 1,000? You know, we were arguing about, you know, higher or lower ranked. Mm-hmm. Well, John says, just a quick thought about the higher or lower when talking about placed in the rankings. Wouldn't staying inside the top 1,000 or outside the top 1,000 be clearer? Yes, it would. What did we say again? You said it wrong. I thought you were talking to me. I think Bruce said you were higher than a certain number. Yeah, higher ranked when it was actually lower. Whatever. Right. He said higher because he meant the higher number is higher. Lower ranked, higher number. Like, being third is higher than second. Mm-hmm. Which isn't really, Bruce, how normal people speak, but... No, I'm not normal. Got an email from Alex who says, Bruce, how about them bills? Oh, fuck them. Yeah, it was great. No, they're great because they lost this week. All right, all right. No need to get upset. Let's see. Jim says, Good morning, guys. Enjoying the episodes, though they are less frequent, In an attempt to make IFPA Whopper ranking levels easier to understand, I will throw this idea into the ring. How about saying if a player is ranked over or under 1,000? That seems to make good sense. Example, Bruce is currently ranked under 1,000 in the IFPA rankings. Keep fighting the good fight, Ron. Cheers.
    75:54
    So what do you think? That sound good? He's Australian, so they're ganging up on me now. They didn't like that I called it a continent. But it is a continent. I know. Thank you. You were right on that one first. Oh, the New Zealand contingent. Yeah. What do you think? Under, over 1,000? I like that. Okay. Why not just say you're in the top 1,000 or you're not? See, that would also work, too. We have a request. Ooh. From Jim. It's please take a few minutes on your show to review the Pinball Expo seminar schedule.
    76:32
    Is it out? Oh, yes, Bruce. It's been out forever. I guess that means give everything a rating like out of five, with five being awesome. Well, that'd be unfair. Well, he said review it. Well, I can't review stuff that hasn't occurred yet.
    76:48
    I thought the request was odd, but, I mean, what else is there to do but to actually just verbally read out something that's already written? Or he's saying review, like, what they're talking, like, the seminars coming up. Or maybe whether we would attend or not, possibly. Okay. Ah. So we have, let's see, the first one is, a custom pinball is within your reach. Speaker Dino Casperi. So if I was into custom pinballs, sure. No. I mean, if you were building your own, that would probably be a good thing to attend. No. That could be where the Deep Root wooden pinball will be unveiled. There you go. What time is the seminar at? 1.30 on Thursday. So at 2 o'clock, okay, I'll give the times at 2 o'clock on Thursday, we have To Infinity and Beyond with the speaker Jim Shilberg.
    77:43
    Would you attend that? It seems a little early for the Toy Story reveal. Yeah. I've heard Jim too many times. Nope. Wow. I have. But you're saying that, like, you've heard him a bunch of times, so you don't need to see him again. Yep. Okay. It just sounded very mean, Bruce. Any point? Whatever. 3 p.m. Pinball and People. Speaker Roland Nitchi. Hate the title. It may be a training seminar for how people on Pinside can learn to treat each other like human beings. Yeah, there you go. Wow, Bruce. You were like, I hate the title. Are you going to do that for like every one of these and just insult people? That's pretty mean. And you're not even going to be there. So I'm going to have to take all the shit now. Give all your complaints to Ron Hallett. No! Punch him in the head instead of hugging him. Pinquest 101. Learn how to play from the creators.
    78:41
    Speaker Nick Shelton and Kyle Troy. Creators of what, though? They don't sound like normal. Oh, yeah, that's that. Do you do pinquest at Silver Ball Saloon, Bruce? I'm guessing not, given. What the fuck's pinquest? Given your what the fuck's pinquest. Yeah, pinquest is this. I'm not sure app's the right word. Let's say service, where they're trying to get operators to participate in the system, and then what happens is you get to have challenges assigned to, like, getting particular scores or achieving things on pinball machines, and then the idea is the player takes a photo or whatnot and then goes up and they get to claim a prize from you, the operator, and that's supposed to drive business to your saloon. Okay. First, I already do that. It's called a high scoreboard. Second, are you comparing scores between place to place or just your place? Just your place. Okay. Why should I pay them when I have a big, humongous chalkboard doing that for me? I think you should go to the seminar and ask that. Nope. So Bruce will be at that seminar. Ron's going to record it for me. I'm sure they'll all be recorded. What is a hauntcade? Speaker Ryan Palicki, the night mutilator. Ooh. I pull my man junk out at night and I mutilate it. Oh, God.
    80:00
    Jesus. You see? You see what I have to put up with? That's so graphic. I got the wooden hammer now and I'm going to go to the metal hammer now.
    80:13
    Where's the meat cleaver? You won't hear this shit on Twip, that's for sure. No fucking way. Jeff may not like that. We have at 4 p.m., we have the origin of ideas, Speaker Doug Watson. He's going to tell us how he got the idea for Quicksilver by looking at that heavy metal magazine cover.
    80:34
    There you go. I like Doug Watson. I'd say that one. Let's see. We have the golden age of pinball, the men, the machines, the memories. Speaker Golden Huss, or Hussie, Jr. Yeah, Gordon Hesse, I believe. Gordon Hesse, Jr. He's a historian. Ah, there you go. You can learn more about pinball, Bruce. Golden age, though? What are they considering the golden age? Probably EMs. I don't know. In fact, I think his area of interest specializes in wood rail.
    81:04
    Wow. What time is that one? Wood rails can be fun. 5.15. Okay, that will get me ready for my afternoon nap. Okay, it's 6 p.m. We have the pinball auction. All proceeds go to Make-A-Wish Foundation, Which is probably similar to what they used to have during the... During the... Yeah, the thing we can't think of. The banquet? The banquet. Jesus. That they don't do anymore.
    81:31
    Okay, at 6.30, we have American Pinball Talk. Josh Cougar. We don't know how to make displays good. And Joe Schober. What do you mean they don't know how to make displays good? Oh, the fucking displays on... You mean the animation quality. The animation is terrible. Okay, well, you can go to the American Pinball Seminar. We can ask him how somebody rates Houdini a great game. Why would you ask them that? I would ask the person who rated it. They don't even make Houdini anymore.
    81:58
    There's a reason why. Because they're making Oktoberfest now? Ah, come on. Multiple manufacturers have multiple lines. They don't. Lazy. They don't lazy. Wow. Bruce, you're making lots of friends at a place you will not be attending. Okay. Perfect. Kind of chicken shit, in my opinion. Yep. Total chicken shit. Okay. I'm a mouth commando, not a keyboard commando.
    82:23
    I knew that's going to get them. I knew it was going to get them. 7.30, the entire history of pinball by the goofballs. Speakers Mark Bakula and Don Caldwell. I think they've been there. They've been there many times. They've been doing this like, yeah, they've been doing this like almost every year I've been there. So they must be doing something right if they keep coming back. They do it for free. Don't we all do it for free? I'm not getting paid to do the media event. Did I even get into that yet? I don't know. Oh, I mentioned it. There's going to be a media event at Expo. Yeah, there's like a media row. There's going to be like a media row, and one hour each day, all us media people are going to be there to greet the fans. Not me.
    83:11
    Fans. I should say fellow pinheads because, I mean, really, I think most of it will be me, like, just talking to the other people in the media row as nobody comes up to our table. Groupies. All the groupies that are coming. No, they'll just come up to Teal's table, you know. They'll ask him to, like, just talk because they like his voice.
    83:33
    Pinball Expo Hall of Fame induction ceremony will be at 830. Maybe Bruce will be inducted. Nope. Yeah, that's why he's not showing up because he's bitter. A recap of 34 years of Pinball Expo. Speaker Rob Burke, that will be at 9 p.m. And that's just Thursday.
    83:52
    Mmm. What? I'm so excited. Okay, starting at, wow, 8.15 a.m. That was an early seminar. Oh, that's the sort of slot they'd give me. Yeah, that's where they're like, oh, we're going to put you at 8.15. Like, really? Especially pinball people, they are not good at getting up early. No, no. Not at all.
    84:12
    I'm hungover. Let's go to a seminar. 8.15 a.m., Pinball Repair in a Modern Era. I like that one. See that? Yes, Ron Coon Jr.
    84:22
    Then at 9 a.m., we have What Is My Game Worth? Speaker Derek Fugate. Oh, it's not Zach Market Trending it? No. Market Trend! This was all made up. 9.45 a.m., the Silver Ball Museum. The top attraction in New Jersey. Speaker Rob Avento. I don't know if it's top attraction in New Jersey. What's the top attraction in New Jersey, Bruce?
    84:49
    Probably Great Adventure. Well, it's probably the top pinball attraction in New Jersey. I would agree with that. All right. Well, you do have eight on the break. 10.30 a.m., we have Quetzal Pinball, 10 Years Creating Pinball Machines. Speakers Antonio Ortugno and Gustavo Diaz. Are they the one that did an Olympic goblin? I don't know. I do not know. I might go just to see what that means. Not me. Whatever, Bruce. At 10.15, we have the Time Travel Warehouse with Speaker John Robertson.
    85:26
    Mm-hmm. He's from Vancouver, I believe. Yep, yep. He finds all these old games and opens them up. Yep, and he had the new-in-box Black Knight. Yep. The new-in-box Robotrons. Yep. He's also, like, isn't he, like, the man to go do for Atari stuff? Yes. If I remember, yes. He's your guy for Atari. All four of you out there. So if you own a Superman, the only Atari game worth owning, you can ask him about it. Or 4x4 if you find the second prototype.
    85:56
    From bricks to balls. At 1 o'clock, from bricks to balls are how I built a Lego pinball machine. Luke Horwath. Next. Wow. 115, Fargo Pinball. How to Open Your Own Pinball Club. Speakers Bill, Jim, and Emily Brooks.
    86:13
    Maybe. We're trying to do like a pinball co-op here in Albany area. 2 p.m., we got the pinball history and science in Spain. I wonder if we'll talk about Segusa. Maybe. Or Playmatic. Or Playmatic, yeah. They'll talk about that clear coat they used and why it seems to still be going strong 40 years later. You know, I've tried to. I don't. I still. I've looked into that. I still don't understand exactly what they did. I did hear one of them did use some sort of, I guess, sort of, I don't know if it's polyurethane. It was different than a lacquer. But I think some of them may have just put on a lot of lacquer. I'm not sure. There was a lot of experimenting. A whole lot of lacquer. And I don't think there was a lot. Like, I had a space gambler in my house for a while, and you could actually see the brush strokes in that lacquer. It looked good. 3 p.m., we have pinball art before pixels. Speaker John Yowsey. Yeah, I've met John many times, and I enjoy his company. You enjoy his company? Okay. Yeah, we've actually had drinks across the street at the end of the place. Oh. Yes. Bruce, he's with the bigwigs, you know. 4 p.m., we have modern pinball design and engineering. Speaker Pat Lawler. Yeah, that guy might be okay, you know. I hope, as long as it's different than the one last year. I mean, the last one I saw with him was really good. He went over, it was actually dialed in from the beginning concept all the way to the end. Showed, like, all the whitewoods. It was very interesting. So he might be doing that. You know, he's probably doing that for WACA. I wouldn't be surprised if it's, like, a similar thing.
    87:54
    515, we have mods and innovations over the years. Speaker Todd Tuckey. No. No? No. At 6.30, we have tips on shipping a pinball machine. Speaker Dino Gasperi. Yep. You never ship any. You just pick them up, Bruce. I shipped.
    88:13
    Then at 7, we have Elvira Health of Horrors launch event with special guest Cassandra Peterson, which I would, you know, I know she doesn't appear public as Elvira anymore, but if there was ever time to do it, this would be it. You know, if she came out in the Envira outfit with, you know, the game's under a cover or something, like, look, it's Elvira.
    88:38
    So would you go to that, Bruce? Yes. Of course you would. Then it's, this one sounds interesting, actually. They mentioned this on the Twit Podcast. Family feud without the family. Speakers Dwight Sullivan and Corey Stoop.
    88:54
    It's going to be some kind of game show thing. And I'm all about the game show stuff. Let's see. And that's it? And the weird thing is that's going to be the same time as the game reveal.
    89:05
    I did check. I was not correct. Olympic Goblin, which is now called Goblin Contest. That's by Phoenix Pinball.
    89:15
    And Quetzal Pinball is the one doing that Tokyo Perfect Drift pinball. Ah. And I guess it's the same designer who did Captain Nemo Dives again. The Tokyo Drift. That's the one with the completely non-offensive art. Yes. Okay.
    89:30
    Let's see. Then Saturday, we have 10.30, Restoring Pinball Artwork and Saving War Games. Speaker Steve Azam. Shall we play a game? Shall we? Rock, rock, rock. Roller games. It's not roller games. It's war games.
    89:47
    I always have to remind everyone at work that DEFCON 1 is war and 5 is peace. Yes. Everyone gets that backwards. I don't know why. It's like, are you above the top 1,000? Exactly. Well, that's only one through five, if you don't understand that one, boy. Then we have a 10 a.m. coin-op carnival, electrifying tales of mechanical contraptions. Speaker Ryan Claytor. I want that book. You didn't get it at TPF? No, I looked for it. I didn't see it anywhere. Oh, they had a booth. Yeah, I'm not very good at looking, obviously. They had a multi-bingo. I literally was looking for a booth. I was looking for the book. That was the one thing I was going to buy. Yeah, they were kind of located, not in the same row, but relatively close to the spooky booth. But, yeah. No, that's probably going to be my, not probably, I'm almost assuredly will be my vote for favorite publication for this year. It's fun. Do you have the book? I do. Did you purchase an item? I did. Well, okay.
    90:44
    Uh-oh. Well, let me, all right. They gave me one because I did have one of them on the Eclectic Gamers podcast, but I also bought one for my brother-in-law. So I did buy one, but it's not the one I kept. There you go. Then let's see. At 12 noon, and it has question marks next to it. Okay. It's a special guest, Cassandra Peterson Elvira. So I guess you can meet Cassandra Peterson. Then at 1 o'clock to 2.30, we have the autograph session.
    91:16
    I wonder if Timmy will be in there. How much do you charge Ron for an autograph? No one ever asked me for one. Well, you'll find out at Meteor Row. Oh, really? Yes, I can feel it in my bones. Oh, my God. Can I have your autograph? Bring your Sharpie. The only thing I was asked to sign anything was actually for a video game thing.
    91:35
    Like the Twin Galaxies World Record book, someone wanted me to sign it. I got asked to sign a shirt at TPF. That was it. Let's see, we have at 3pm The Making of Black Knight With Steve Ritchie Are you going to watch it, Bruce? Yeah, I think I would Yeah, of course you would You can watch me, you'll love me I'm Steve Ritchie When I made Black Knight, it was great And then they went and they stole it And they flashed Gordon to rip off Claude Fernandez, I hate him, he ripped off my ideas Yeah, or Claude Damn you, Claude And you know, don't forget Don't forget about Skateball He totally ripped off Flash. That was even more blatant than Flash Gordon. It really was. It's completely Flash. He just moved the flipper and added some drop targets.
    92:24
    Skateball does not exist without Flash. Yeah, but one could argue that both of Claude's versions were superior to the Ritchie originals. No, no. Skateball is better, but I like Black Knight better. Sorry. I like Flash Gordon more than Black Knight. You're wrong, but okay. At 4 p.m., we have the making of Jurassic Park.
    92:45
    We know you would be there, Bruce. Yes. 5 o'clock, we have Elvira House of Horror Seminar. With all the makers of the game and Elvira again. She's going to be busy. That's at least three appearances for her. Then there's going to be another auction at 6. Then at 6 p.m., this one, Team Bally, a reunion of the Bally family. I hope it's just focused on, like, 1983 to 86.
    93:15
    No, it's probably before that. You know, the good games. Oh, and Claude Fernandez is going to be there. Oh, boy. I hope there's not an incident. Claude Fernandez and Steve Ritchie get into it. Although they've been at Axel at the same time before. Nothing's happened. Nope, nothing at all. Kevin O'Connor. Yeah, Greg Kinnaman. Yeah, this is going to be, like, classic, like, Valley stuff. I definitely would attend that.
    93:37
    Let's see. 7.15, we have the Lloyd Show. Lloyd Olsen. See, 8 o'clock, we have an evening with Jersey Jack. I would definitely attend that. Yeah, because you've got to ask him why the fuck he's got pooling. Yeah, Bruce stands up. What's with the pooling, man? Stop using Mirko. How am I supposed to populate this entire play field? Exactly.
    93:59
    Exactly. Then we have 9.30, Vuck and Mom's Pinball, the story of some of the best pinball on the East Coast. Chuck Gardner and Casey Gardner. I don't know really what that would mean. Neither would I. So, there we go. We have gone over all the seminars. Yeah, so I don't have to go there now. You're right. You don't have to go there. So, nothing was interesting enough for you, Bruce? No, not really. A couple.
    94:28
    Okay. How about you, Dennis? Anything? Would you go there? Not go there? No, well, I'm not going. I know, but would you go out? Okay, that didn't change your mind yet? No. I mean, even at TPF, I usually only sit in on maybe two seminars the entire time. But I don't have the same experience like Ron has on having played every single Solid State ever made, so I'm still usually trying to play stuff. Pretty much. Even the foreign ones. It's cool. Dennis Creasel sent us an email. It says, bring back game you like, game you hate. Oh, look at me. I so rarely send emails, so that was so generous of me. Thank you. My favorite segment. Yeah, we definitely got to hate some games. Yeah, Bruce just didn't need to go through. I remember he dropped it because he was like, I already said everything I hate. And Robert Byers wants to know what happened to drop a deuce on the top 100.
    95:20
    Yes, I know. That's one of my favorites. What did we do on that one again? We just tried to convince someone how bad a game is. Yes. Like the opposite. Yeah, opposite. You made the pick-in. Another email from Alex. He says, hey, Bruce. How about them bills? Hey, Patriots beat them this weekend, even though I didn't watch it. The timing, unfortunately, poor Alex. The timing was bad for him. We should have recorded earlier.
    95:44
    Oh, boy. We had a couple other emails that say segment ideas, and I don't want to read those out loud because we're probably going to be using them. Yes. Thank you, everybody. But we are going to bring back a segment now that we have a guest, one that we haven't done in a long time. It's time for Face Off.
    96:09
    I don't want to ruin my face off again. And for those who don't remember the rules to this, basically me and Bruce each get three games, and we will try to present our case to Dennis why one game is superior to the other, and Dennis will be the judge, jury, and executioner. And if Dennis is smart, he will give one to me and one to Bruce, so the third one is, you know, so it's not anticlimactic, but it might not end up being that way. And we used to do this. We would choose a particular year, and then we would pick a manufacturer.
    96:41
    But since Dennis is here, we know Dennis loves wide bodies. Loves them. They're like his favorite games in the world. So what we're going to do is we are going to pick from the seven, count them, seven Williams Super Pins. For those who don't know what the Super Pins are, we have, and I'm not looking this up. I'm going to see if I can do this. Remember, Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, Demoman, Judge Dredd, Roadshow, Popeye, and what's the one I'm missing? I know exactly which one it is. I'm going to let you hang like you. I'm going to help along. Star Trek, Star Trek, Star Trek, Next Generation. You didn't have to help me. There you go. So those are the seven. Who picks first? Who picks second? Whoever picks first and second. I can't remember who has the advantage. I think whoever picks second has the advantage. But why don't we do, like, random org or something?
    97:36
    You got random org up, Bruce? No. There, I'm going to it. There, let's have the guest do it. Yes, let the guest be the judge. All right, so let's list randomize. I'm going to type in Bruce. I'm going to type in Ron. Let's click randomize, and Ron is first, Bruce is second. Okay, so I already suck. All right. Pick your game. Pick my game. Choose your house. This is a tough one here. It is.
    98:08
    Demoman. Do it. Run with the bat. Demoman. Just going right for it. One of the greatest wide bodies ever made. A flow fest from Dennis Nordman. I think Dennis Nordman, like, just, this was his challenge to Steve Ritchie, that I can make a game that flows more than any of your games. I'm going to make Demoman off of the incredibly awesomely bad, but still awesome, cheesy film, Demolition Man starring Sandra Bullock and Wesley Snipes, who didn't like his picture on the damn translate, so he kept having them redo it. Damn you, Wesley Snipes. It's just a flow fest, great rules. It has a super cool claw, which you need the Soarin' Rom if you want to use it properly. It's super cool. It has great shots. It has just incredible art. You have Sylvester Stallone nude on the side art. Who doesn't want that? It's just great. It's cheesy fun. Definitely get the R-rated home rom. It's the best way to play it. Features authentic call-outs from the movie, custom call-outs from Sylvester Stallone himself. Who does that anymore? Companies can't get the big star anymore to do it, but they did. I give you Demoman, the greatest wide body ever. I yield the floor and now I have to do a conflict of interest here okay somehow I know you're using that term wrong but yeah it is a conflict of interest because you're going to know which game I'm picking and you're going to go ah Twilight Zone okay Twilight Zone is like the super duper LE version of any pinball ever made you have a gumball machine On certain models, you have either four or five magnets, plethora of shots, 13 or 14 modes, I think it is, for the door. You have great animation, great sounds. You have one of the best songs ever on a pinball machine, pre-2000, with Twilight Zone from Golden Earring. I was just like, Steel Panther, that'd even be better.
    100:27
    But a great machine. It's got great flow. It's got great shots. This is when Pat Lohler actually made good games. Not like today with Dialed In and that kind of crap. That sucks. He made a great game. Now, you want to get the home ROM version for this one because then you can actually, while you're playing the game, you can actually get right the lits if you need to, if you want to. You can also, when, say, somebody's calling you on the phone, you can actually put your flipper up, hit the start and I think the buy-in button at the same time, and it will hold the flipper in, the flipper up, and you can actually walk and get a soda, answer your phone, and come back. No other game does this.
    101:09
    Twilight Zone, the art is incredible. The back trans light is actually really, really impressive by John Yorcey.
    101:17
    Artwork on the play field, incredible. Great machine. best wide body ever I yield the floor okay so Twilight Zone how many modes did he say 13 or 14 that you never play it's another Adams family you hit two ramps you hit one ramp you start a mode run ramp start a mode when you play in tournaments play the same way every time you hit both ramps lock a ball both ramps gumball machine it's the same crap every single time. Maintenance nightmare. Gumball machine. There was never a gumball machine in any episode. Doesn't match the theme. Complete fail right there. The artwork is not that great. Let's be honest. Let's see. What else?
    102:05
    No one knows what they're doing on the game. Like, put it back. The Powerball, put it back. Like, what do I do? What does that even mean? It confused people. Even Pat Waller himself said they went overboard with the game. No one understood what to do, and it was a mistake. His own words, I yield four.
    102:24
    Demoman. Worst art package ever, either on a play field or on art. I don't want to see fucking Sylvester Stallone's ass or cheek or anything else on him. No. No! I don't want to see that. No, I don't. But you get even, let's put handles on top of the machine. Yay! that no one ever fucking uses except for one cheat mode to get an extra super jackpot or making your combos a little bit bigger. It's a terrible game. It's got good humor. I'll give it that. But other than that, it's not that much fun. And it is also a nightmare with the stupid crane and the underneath part. Always opto issues because they were having opto issues during that game. Terrible game. Twilight Zone rocks. Demoman sucks. I yield the floor. It's a claw, not a crane.
    103:21
    Same thing. Yeah. And you can use the triggers in a lot of other places. Yeah. Still terrible. Okay, Dennis.
    103:29
    And you're... Okay. Well, and so, full disclosure, I'm all about honesty. Demolition Man is my favorite of the super pins. So, I'm going to try and set that aside and evaluate your arguments. I'm glad, Ron, that you caught your Arnold Schwarzenegger mistake, because initially you kept saying Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes, you did. And I was like, oh, doesn't know the movie. Big fail. I'm surprised you even saw it. Good pointing out the flow. Good pointing out the humor. Don't know about relying on an alternate ROM argument. Flip side, Twilight Zone. Good discussion about the Golden Earring song is the best part of the game. Awful lot of emphasis on the home ROM. Again, a lot of people, they're not going to have control over that, so I need to kind of set that aside and not really evaluate that in my view. Disingenuous to say that had a lot of flow, though. So overall, I like the stressing of the modes, whereas Ron didn't really talk about the code at all in terms of Demolition Man. Good defense on the handle thing, though. There are a number of uses for them, and I actually have seen people play with the handles just normal because they think it's funny. So overall, I thought you both gave pretty good arguments. better takedowns than actual defense of your own pins. But I'm going to go ahead and I will give it to Ron.
    104:51
    I thought I was a little more convincing. I thought I was a little more honest with how the gameplay was. World champion Robert Daniel plays with the handles. Just to let you know, Bruce. I do too, but still, I don't like them. I go for extra points. That's the only reason why I'm doing it.
    105:06
    But it's terrible. The pin has those handles. Oh, that's right. It didn't work. It works great. and they are built like tanks. No, they're not. The buttons fail on them all the time. Oh, stop. Stop. Okay, we're done arguing about that game. Next.
    105:22
    I will take number one with a number two in the face Number one Star Trek Next Generation The one I would love to buy off of Mr Ron Hallett because it does have great modes It does have flow because it is from the king of the flow He actually made a wide body fast, mean, and brutal like a pinball should be. No, I showed flow. It was this game. the interaction with the voices from the cast all seven of them which is incredible to say even now as 25 years later just the quotes what they did for this game brought it to another level with the shots great shots theme interaction hidden stuff like oh you know when Mr. Data if you did a ball to this particular you squeeze the flippers thank you Mr. Data Now, great game. It is a mechanical nightmare. But with someone with my quality of service and repair, it is so easy compared to other machines out there. Not a problem, TNA. And it's just such a great game. I would give this a 1A behind Twilight Zone. I yield the floor. So I will choose for my game the classic animated masterpiece that is Popeye Saves the Earth.
    106:55
    Wow. You may want to use some caution here, Ron. Popeye is so much, there's so much more going on than Star Trek Next Generation. Look at Popeye. It looks like a boat. It has an upper play field. It's got Bluto sitting right there looking at you. I mean, just superior theme integration. Popeye's on there talking about olive oil, sweet pea. Everyone's on there. All your favorite characters from Popeye. It's just an innovative, awesome play field from Barry Osler, I believe. And it's just incredible. Great art. I mean, super colorful. It's just a great, timeless theme. Who doesn't know Popeye? Everyone knows Popeye. It's just super fun to play. It's a great, wonderful game. I don't know why Williams stopped making Y-Bodies after making such a great game. I yield the floor.
    107:55
    It's Popeye. Can't see half the play field. Video mode's stuck. The animation's pretty garbage on it. Artwork is actually really nice on it. I will give a plus on that. I yield the floor.
    108:09
    Okay, next. Again, you said it's tons of flow. It also has tons of wide open space with nothing there. Didn't take advantage of the space at all. The art, really the art is subpar. The art is not that great on that game. And it just has, it's a maintenance nightmare, full subway system that always has problems. It always forgets how many balls it has in play, where they are. We never can get through a tournament without something on the machine. malfunctioning is the biggest maintenance nightmare. Both Steve Ritchie and Dwight Sullivan said, it's amazing if you have one of these and it actually works. That says it all right there. These are in programmer of the game saying they're amazed when it even works. I yield the floor.
    108:56
    That was an interesting choice, Ron. I know what he did. I know what he did too. But evaluating the arguments, unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, this one was pretty clear-cut. The problem mostly was Ron's, your argument for Popeye really just relied on you just saying it was great over and over in like four different configurations. And Bruce had already acknowledged the mechanical challenges in his opening defense of Star Trek. So in a way, I felt that was already taken off of the table because that was acknowledged as a flaw in the game. He's right, it's brutal. He's right, it has high flow. Yes, the play field is a bit open in the middle. That's part of what allows it to have flow, though. So, again, that kind of goes hand in hand with it. Bruce easily won that one. So that's the nice way I can say it. I just wanted to get Popeye out there, you know. It deserves some love. No, yeah. And Bruce was very kind saying that it had a nice art package. It is, actually. Sure.
    110:01
    But your confidence in victory was assured with the fact that you gave it. I thought that was a fair point, but, oh, my God, what a turd.
    110:11
    Oh, my God. Oh, thank you for that. So, Ron, three to choose from. What do we got? We got Roadshow, Indiana Jones, and Dredd.
    110:27
    I'm going to go with Judge Dredd. Judge Dredd, underestimated. I mean, underappreciated game, super, like, packed play field, lots of flow, super cool Dead World toy, little crane thing on the side. It's got fun modes. It's got a fun multiball. It has drop targets. I mean, we love those drop targets. I mean, it's just got so many shots in that game.
    110:54
    It's really fun to shoot that thing. It also has the Super Game, where it has super multiball, super jackpots. Everything is super. It gives you just multiple ways you can play the game for a little more money. It has, like, the cool launch buttons, extra buttons on the side. The coolest topper that doesn't do anything ever that's on the top there, the Eagle Topper. It's got, you know, very acceptable artwork, super cool theme music. Like, that is one of the best. The main theme song for Judge Dredd is probably one of the best pinball music original compositions I've ever heard. That's all I got. Any other four?
    111:35
    We're going indie. Yes, indie Danda Jones. 14 modes. All fun. Hidden modes. Excuse me, did I make any noise, Dennis, when I think that should be a happy moment? No, sir, you did not. That wasn't me. It's been noted. Okay, thank you.
    112:00
    14 modes, incredible shots, smooth ramps with the X in the middle, because it is a Mark Ritchie design, which is a good flow game. Four drop targets also. Don't forget that. Captive ball with an original captive ball going vertical and, you know, almost like at a 45-degree angle. No, about 33 degrees. Great shot. You have an upper play field that actually moves left and right. First time I think it's ever happened. Incredible.
    112:30
    Great rules. Partially done by the newest addition from Stern. What's his fucking name? Can't remember right now. Brian Eddy. So another great thing about that. Great game with three video modes. Another good thing. And it uses all three movies. And uses them well. It's not like you're getting like Indiana Jones, the last one, where you got bits of one movie, bits of another movie, and then we'll get to that third or fourth one later on. This is great uses of it. Great pin, lots of flow. I own this one the longest out of all my wide bodies. So I yield the floor with Indiana Jones.
    113:10
    Horrible score imbalancing. The multi-ball trumps all the modes to an extreme, extreme measure where no one ever plays the modes. They just go for multiballs, supers. The path of misadventure that's always broken all the time and never works right. And I think the Gottlieb game Wipeout uses something similar, which I think was before this game. Let's see, what else? Art is pedestrian at best. Video modes, you think video modes? Video modes suck. I hate video modes. The music is, I mean, they had a, there's a first game with the DCS sound system, so I'll give it that. Sounds a little better. But the scoring is so just horribly imbalanced in this game, it makes it just unfun to shoot. And is it at Silver Ball Saloon anymore, Bruce? No, it's not. You removed it because no one wanted to play it. I yield a four. That is false. I actually sold it to the guy who played it the most and got a lot of money for it. And, by the way, Wipeout was after Indiana Jones. Another fail on your part. Okay. So please get your facts right before disputing any sort of fight. So that was one of your highest-ranking games for cash intake, when you had it there? Yes, in the beginning, yes, totally. In the beginning, until people realized the horrible score imbalance. No, because guess what? Most people are not tournament players like you, Ron. My public likes everything about it. They like the flow and everything else. But if you notice, I've never had Judge Dredd at the Super Bowl Saloon. I never even owned a Judge Dredd. I've owned over 300 pinball machines. and one I would never own is Judge Turd Dread.
    114:49
    Trudeau, pedophile man, pedophile man, perv, open flipper gap, terrible. Ah, terrible game. It does not have flow. Only thing it has flow with is maybe the loop. Ramps are hard to hit if you have weak flippers, which most of them do. The rules are very imbalanced on this game also. The only thing that's good to go for is multi-ball, multi-ball with that, or maybe one time if you get blackout, if you have it lined up for blackout. That's the only thing good about the game. Super game, ooh, I get to put two more quarters in to play a multi-ball right away. Great idea. Hasn't been done in a long, long time. Until now, you can actually go play God. But, ugh, terrible game. Artwork is not that great. I think the back glass is great, but I think the play field is subpar. Oh, and you want to talk about mechanical issues? Let's talk about the dead world that never worked, even with the proto-roms in it. Even when people buy the upgraded kit, it never worked. It was terrible. Log, jam balls, everything. Not the game for anybody you want to ever... I would actually rather play Popeye than Judge Dredd a lot of times. I yield the floor.
    116:07
    Wow. Okay. Well, you both did a very good job with your takedowns. The aggression, I could feel it. I could feel the hate. It felt almost authentic, so I appreciate that. I think a good counterpoint by Bruce regarding that they both had scoring imbalances, and I do concur with that. I don't think either game is actually very good from a tournament perspective to want to play. I probably know more about Indiana Jones' problems than I do about Judge Dredd's, But good points also by Bruce on the issues with the flow challenges on a lot of the shots involved in Judge Dredd. I thought it was a good discussion with the acknowledgement on where the art was strong and wasn't strong from both of you. I do think that Indiana Jones and the Path Adventure was a really cool idea. I also don't see them working very much. But, again, the mechanical issues with Dead World are well noted as well. So, overall, I just thought the argument was better presented by Bruce.
    117:10
    So, I'll give that to him. He's better at hate. That's what it is. I have to admit, yeah. He presented the hate, like, way more. Like, I've owned over 300 games, and I've never owned this. That was such a sick burn. That was good, yes.
    117:28
    It's so hard to come back from. How do you come back from that? I have owned everything, but not that. But not that game. I've owned a road show, too, yes. But no Popeye. No, I never – actually, that's not true. I owned a Popeye for three days.
    117:42
    I took the boards out of it and sold it. That's crap. That's Popeye's one purpose in life. It was. It's the NBA fast break of super pins. It was. You just became someone's hero with that comment. I did. It feels good to be back on top, boys and girls. Bruce, you were saying that you got something recently. I did, and I sent Ron a picture because I went on another trip.
    118:09
    Was it a long trip? It was two and a half hours north of Toronto, so I was gone for 16 hours total. Oh, wow. So, yes, it would be what Dennis would define as a long trip. Yes. And I took a picture when we just loaded up the last one, so I bought multiple games.
    118:29
    I bought Rush 2049s for the bar. Not one. not two. I was going up there for three. I ended up with five. Oh, my. How do you end up with five? Like, there was just two extra there? Well, the guy said, I think I have more in the back. It was a big warehouse. I'm like, what do you mean you got more in the back? I was like, I got two more in the back. They're way back there. Let's dig them out. So that's what took us so long when we were up there. We dug through, like, a couple games, got to these things. One had a broken monitor in it, but it booted, actually played the game blind.
    119:08
    But the cabinet was really beat, so I'm like, and then he pulled out this other one, had a good monitor, and it booted, and it was a little rough, you know. I'm like, how much do you want for both? He's like, I'll take this much. Deal. Throw them on there also. Luckily, I got a, when we went up there, I rented a 16x8 U-Haul trailer, open.
    119:29
    Got all five on there. Zoinks. Yeah, zoinks. Then I had to unload them last night, and my arms feel like Popeye right now.
    119:42
    Well, blow me down. On that note. So hopefully soon I'm going to be working on these one at a time, and we're going to get a couple of rushes into the bar, hopefully my next month, and we will be able to drive drunk at the Silver Ball Saloon. Yeah, I don't know if that's. I'm not sure about that ad campaign. Drive drunk inside the Silver Ball Sloan. How's that? After the thing with the mall in Chicago. Oh, no.
    120:13
    And on that note. On that note, I think I'm through all my items here. Wow. Talked about a lot of crap. Do you have anything to talk about, Dennis? Do you have any hate you would like to put forth? Oh, no. I've been on the air so much that I think I'm all. I'm all pretty much played out on. I haven't picked up anything recent since my run of System ADA games, Bruce's favorite era of Gottlieb.
    120:43
    I'm going to take a couple of those out to KC Game Con. I'm going to let them have Super Orbit and Jax to open to put in the tournament or free play, whatever they want to do with them.
    120:52
    They're going to be tournament games, Bruce, because they've got balanced scoring. Super Orbit was used in a Pinnberg final, so you know it's good. I think 2015, yeah. Yes, it was. And a lot of people know Jax Open, the EM version of the Jax 2 Open, which I think they just shuffled some drop targets around, basically. They put it in a center post, but otherwise it's basically the same. Don't worry, I've turned off the background music, so. Oh, thank God. Yeah. That went off on both. I was like, thank God. Superorbit was dropped. I almost wanted to punch it after two games. I was like, this can't be. Let's clip a wire or something. Oh, wait, there's a dip switch. Yes. Yes, there is. All right. We're all around. All right. I want to see angry. I heard there might be, you know, angry Dennis one of these times coming out. What do you want me to be mad about? Well, we mentioned Dutch, and that got him pissed. I know. Well, it just frustrates me. I mean, I actually, I don't, I haven't gotten, like, a lot of blowback on, like, well, you guys, you've podcasted for a long time. Do you ever get people that just, like, they get really pissed at a segment, and they write into you? Every day. You're like, well, Bruce says every day, and Ron's like, well, I'm the one who actually checks all the messages. Yeah, I'm the one who actually checks the email. Not really. I think they just expect Bruce to say ridiculous things at this point, so it's just like, I don't know if they take anything he says seriously. Yeah. But it's usually right. Yes, you're always right, Bruce. We don't get a lot of hate. Anytime I do, and this came up recently, anytime I do talk about pinball edu, I always get people on both sides writing into me, so that's always a controversial one. And let's see. I got some rage back when the whole Godzilla spooky stern thing was going on. People didn't like it. They felt I was too pro-stern in that. So I got some criticism with that.
    122:37
    And Dutch, generally, no. Most people are pretty down on Dutch. I did get someone once who posted this publicly. I think they did. No, maybe they emailed me. I don't remember. But someone sent a little note, and it just said, thanks for telling me what I should do legally, IRL. And I was like, no problem. That's what I'm here for. If you still have money in it, you're stupid. Sorry. It was like, oh, yeah, I'm sure that was the episode where Tony and I both were like pretty hard on people not being aggressive with Dutch. And I know I very pointedly said that it was a mistake if you had not started litigation by this point. You should have done it a long time ago. I stand by that statement. That's my assessment of the situation. and you've got to, when you're in that sort of position, that's why there's a legal system. Use it. Use it or lose it. I mean, that's your choice. Totally agree. And unfortunately, Last Crusade style, a lot of people have chosen pretty poorly. You have chosen poorly. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to think. What else? Oh, we could talk about Clearcoat, except I'm not really impacted by it, other than... Bruce is. Yeah, so Bruce, how many games of yours are impacted by the Cleargate? One. Is it the Batman? No. No, my Batman's beautiful.
    123:58
    Jurassic Park. Oh, I forgot you already had a Jurassic Park. Yeah. But, yeah, and my distributor, Knox Amusements, is taking care of that because that's his game. You don't use flipping out pinball? Nope. No, no, Knox Amusements is the one that bends that. They actually bend it here for me. Ah. But he went to his distributor and they said they're going to take care of it. And that's all that worries him. I mean, he's not worried about it at all because he has a very good distributor, a very powerful distributor, one of the biggest.
    124:25
    Unlimited power. Yes. But, yeah, so I know we are worried about the condition of the play field, but they'll take care of it. Stern always does.
    124:35
    But my Batman is perfect, my Batman play field. Well, once I got all the leveling done with the – Once I fixed the rotisserie and got all the leveling done and made these 30,000 adjustments, that was awesome. Best game ever? No. Not the best game ever. But it's a really good game. Some people it is. Some people it's their favorite. Too complicated. I don't get it. I love it. I don't get it. It's beyond my level of rule comprehension, definitely. Now, wait a second. Just like you don't get Batman 66, I don't get fucking Star Wars. And I still do not like it, even after hearing it five or six times. That was the other thing that they said on Twip. What is the one thing Zach said? He doesn't think rules knowledge should lead to victory? Like, you know, could be whoever plays the longest? That was with Dwight, too. How far are you going to take that? I thought about – no, it's all about doubling down with him. I thought about bringing it up on this week's episode. Yeah, that's a good one because that one did frost me a little bit. So I was like, so – because the way he said it was he thought that the person who should win should just be the person with the best just physical ability. The way it was described, you might as well just do a scientific test, figure out who had the best accuracy and reaction speed, and just declare them the winner. That's what he wanted. That strategy, tactical decision-making, rules knowledge, and choice, and how all of that gets played out should be set aside. It should be raw physical skill. I was like, that's not what this game is. He might as well play chess. Yeah, that's the same thing. Are we going to do that with chess too? whoever can hit the little clock the fastest and do speed tests the fastest. Win! Yeah, you're the winner. You're the fastest. I don't want that strategy in there. I don't want rules. I mean, that's all that is, is rules knowledge. So, yeah, that kind of pissed me off. I should have called him out. I expect to lose on a lot of those games because I just don't get the rules. But, like, in my league, we have a Star Wars there, and I just play, like, the Leia strategy and pretty much win every time because nobody knows how to play that game. I don't know how to play that game. I know that strategy works and I can execute it, and I know my score goes up really fast when I do it. I do like the idea of everyone having access to all the rules. I don't want it to be like, oh, I know the super secret trick, and I'll do the little flipper code or whatever, and I'll get into my high score mania because there were the three cop cars on getaway and activate it sort of thing. But that being said, it makes sense for rules to have enough depth, especially at this point, that we need to be able to choose to learn about them and then get to make strategic choices on how to approach. And that even happened in older games like the Bruce loved Super Orbit. Are you going to do a high risk strategy of trying to hit the very target over and over and rapidly building your bonus? Are you going to try and play it safe? Spinner. And in that Pinberg event, it was split. Two people went very target. Two people went spinner. Very target player won. But it was really dangerous, and that showed because I think the other person who went very target took last. Yeah. And so it's like that, but now it's gotten much more deep. But that being said, it's still just pinball. Compared to video game rules, these aren't that bad.
    127:59
    Okay, you heard it here, folks. Yeah, I didn't agree with Zach's comment either. No one did, except Zach. But he knows this. Yeah. He knows his opinion as a minority, and that's fine. Yeah, I agree, but I just did not agree with him on that one. I think he should actually play in some tournaments first. You know, he signed a stall. I shouldn't say stall, but I will. Stall. He stole a Pinnberg ticket from someone. I knew he wasn't going to go. He had that ticket, and then he's like, no, I can't make it. Oh, really? Can't make it. Surprise! He bought it on the air.
    128:35
    I couldn't buy a Pinnberg ticket because we were on the air. he bought it live on that note now we're going to get a lot of twip hate mail bring it on bitches nah you didn't crap all over market trends so they'll still like you as long as you don't take their segment away that they love get Bruce on he'll crap on it no offense I fast forward oh man I fucking do I hate that I'm right with you Dennis it's gotten really bad now because I now take it off track on purpose on all the times I'm on so it's like a 25 minute segment now because off. I just bring up this random crap. Okay, Bruce. First, remember to email him. You've got to get on the show. Oh, yes. Dennis gave you the info. Yes, Zach is a way I communicate with him today. He said tell Ron and Bruce hi. I said yes, and I said Bruce would like to be on the show, and Zach said let's make it happen. And after he hears this episode, he's going to say tell Ron and Bruce fuck them. Well, you know what? This ain't middle school, so he can tell you himself. Exactly. No, let's not ask him anymore. Stop it. Just be nice and say, hi, we like the Slim Tilt guys, and then never talk to us again.
    129:44
    Rending down Slim Tilt. Oh, wait, he's not allowed to do that anymore. So, Bruce, it's all in your court now. So everyone has heard this. It's out there. It's up to you. So if you're not on the podcast, if you don't get up to it, it's because you failed. I'm going right now. Oh, he's going to do it right now. Right now. Oh, it's like Pinberg tickets. It's like Pinberg tickets. Please, Zach, I would like to be on. Contact.
    130:10
    Sir, may I have some more of your nonsense? Maybe American Pinball could do Oliver Twist as a theme. How about they get the game right before they actually... No, just do that. Before they get the theme. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible story. Kid goes, gets adopted, through no course of his actions of his own, gets an improved lot in life. What's the moral in that? It's a terrible book. I hate Dickens. Yeah. Terrible off. Charles Dickens hate. You heard it here, folks. Come on, he named a kid Pip. What the hell? I know, I agree. He sucked. Wow, Charles Dickens hatred.
    130:46
    Let the hate flow through you. Good. Execute order, Charles Dick. His failure is complete. He's a dick. That's right. They get Dwight to put in the double ball save on Star Wars and just like, once more the drop targets will rule the out lane. I wonder what quote could he use from the movie for like the second ball save?
    131:16
    Oh, God. The one thing, it's not from the movie, but it's from the Star Wars celebration from this year when the emperor guy, Ian, walked out because they had the trailer for the upcoming Star Wars movie. And he just took the microphone. The only thing he said was, roll it again. And I thought, that would be great for a ball save. Roll it again. I like that. And then they replayed the trailer. But no one will get that who didn't watch Star Wars Celebrations trailer. Honestly, I'm just so done with, like, to me, there's three movies. That's it. No, I don't care. It's like when I play Star Wars and it says, youngling, I fucking hate that. That wasn't in the movie. Well, Ron, I hate sand. It's coarse and it gets everywhere.
    132:07
    What about that? How about that for the ball save? I killed them. The women and the children, too. Oh, gosh. Oh, that's so bad. You know what really bothers me? His bad acting. He goes to, like, killing children, like, almost instantly. It's so bad. Yeah, Duel of the Fates is one of the best pieces of music. Oh, it is. I do agree with that. That music is incredible. That's John Williams. Of course it's incredible. But it still sucks. The movie sucks. The problem was... They were made. That's the problem. No, the problem was he never should have went four or five. He should have made those in the beginning and just kept on going and not done the prequels. The problem was he didn't know all this stuff. and why did not Darth Vader realize C-3PO, who he was, in Empire Strikes Back? He made him. He made him at the end of, you know, that's how they retconned it in Revenge of the Sith, is at the end of it they mind wiped. Oh, the mind wipe just ended. Oh, this is so stupid. Why did you mind wipe? For the second ball saying, maybe we could do something. Would you care to allow a delegation to be appointed to investigate these trade war, Trade Federation allegations? Yes. It's just so bad. It's awfully lengthy. Maybe we don't miss out. How does What's-Her-Face even die in episode three? So she just loses the will to live? Broken heart. Yeah, broken heart. Are you kidding? Are you kidding me? I don't know why you killed the younglings, Annie. Maybe the midi-friars killed her. Yeah. There was no father.
    133:46
    It's a trap. I'm still trying to figure out who the voice in Star Wars is supposed to be in the game. Oh. Is there supposed to be Admiral Ackbar? No, I think that's supposed to be the announcer for Star Wars Rebels the cartoon. Well, it doesn't mean anything then. Why is he in that game? It's a trilogy. It's affordable, damn it. Oh, come on. How much does the emperor guy cost? Come on. Just get him. He can't be that expensive. I don't know. Oh, Jesus. Maybe they could have just said R2 narrate. Oh, that's bad. Well, it's no worse than C-3PO and the one was a Daddy's Game. Shoot the Death Star. It's so bad. It's so horrible. And then Trilogy. Oh, God, with the artwork with, what, 50 TIE Fighters on the play field or whatever it is. So bad. Had that massive Gottlieb-style gobble hole. Oh, my God. It's so bad. Oh.
    134:49
    So there's just a trilogy. That's all that exists. They're all winners. All the other movies don't exist. And the world is great. But they do, Ron. No, they don't. Look, I'll give you the numbers. No, they don't.
    135:00
    They don't exist. Just the trilogy. And the original trilogy. Not the remakes. We don't know who Darth Vader is until episode six, you know. And how do we know this? Because they don't tell us the pre-story. The pre-story. Whatever. It's just, no. There's only three movies. That's impossible. I like the part, though, where Obi-Wan calls home. He's like, did you pay for Clone Army? Yeah. No, the worst of it, actually. Clone Army. Just sit there. There's so many bits. You know, and I watched all three of those prequels in the theater. I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah, I do, too. I don't know what I was thinking. Like, Clone Wars was okay. It's like, okay, that's a good recovery from the debacle that was the first one. and I love Christopher Lee and he kicks ass. So what do they do? They kill Christopher Lee within the first five minutes of the next movie. Like, are you kidding? Are you kidding? I was so pissed off. Yeah, I mean, I was such a fan of his performance as Saruman. I just wanted Sifuman.
    136:02
    Yeah, I know. I was mad in the theatrical release when I learned ahead of time for Return of the King that they'd cut his entire segment. That's why I own the director's cuts, so I can watch his scene in Return of the King. Oh, he's in Lord of the Rings movies? Yeah, he was Saruman, the light wizard. I've never seen it. Oh, it's so good. He's trying to burn down the mountain. Ron doesn't believe in movies. Oh, no, I'm not into the Middle Earth and all that crap, and there's too much CGI in those movies. It's just annoying me. Yeah, that's why you should just stick with Star Wars. Yeah, they've never CGI'd that. No, not in the originals or wasn't it? Blue screens, baby. Obstacle printer. All the prequels, and those were just pure CG. I'm not even sure little Annie was a human being. He sure didn't act like one.
    136:51
    They managed to get a kid who couldn't act. That's the ball save. Yahoo! See, we brought it back to pinball. Yep. We always do.
    137:04
    So, Bruce, have you sent the email yet? Are you done? So now that Bruce has sent the email, I'm sure he will be in a future episode coming very soon. Yeah, not this Sunday because of the thing I edited out, but yes.
    137:19
    I'm such a knack. Yes, you are. And no, don't listen at the end, folks. That will not be in the special features. Okay, on that note, thanks, everyone. It's been episode 135 of the Slam Tilt Podcast. We can be reset. Actually, just go to www.slamtiltpodcast.com. That has all our links there, our Twitch link, where you can watch a replay of the finals of Stomp and watch Bruce kick ass. You can go to our YouTube channel and watch the 1080 version of Bruce kicking ass.
    137:52
    On Roller Games. On Roller Games running the new store in Roms. Watch. Lock Stealing is not in there anymore. Watch as random sudden deaths do not start because of improved code. They work actually real well. Yep. Oh, it's so nice. So nice. We can be reached at our email at slamtillpodcast at gmail.com. Dennis, do you want to plug anything? Well, you can always reach out to me at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com or eclecticgamers.com. That's the podcast I do with Tony. Tony! Hey, Tony! And I don't have an email with This Week in Pinball, but if you send it to one of those, they'll get it to me eventually. You're not worthy. No, no. And you actually stream. Where can I watch your stream? My stream? Oh, yes, I do stream on twitch.tv slash eclectic underscore gamers. I usually try and do it on Wednesdays. Will you be streaming Hoops anytime soon? Unfortunately, Hoops was just recently streamed. Oh, but you can watch the VOD of him playing Hoops. The VOD is still up on Twitch, yes. Otherwise, the next game up is probably Stern Star Trek. There you go. Wow, that's a new one. It's a newer game. It's not like you. It's shiny and flow. Yeah, it's one of my two new, quote-unquote, newly built games. I've had it for a few years. So you're of the opinion I got rid of the wrong Star Trek II like everyone else is? Yeah, I mean. Okay. All right. But, hey, now you know what you can free up to make room for Deadpool. Yes, I can. We'll have to talk about that off-air. Yeah, talk to Bruce off-air on that. Yeah, yeah. So, again, episode 135. Thanks, everyone. Thanks to all the other podcasts. I'm not going to mention you this time because we're running really late. It's really late. Oh, yeah, but we'll just say hi, Zach. Well, final bonus. Hi, Steve. Always got to say that. Thanks, everybody. Say goodbye, Bruce. Goodbye, Zach Many. Thank you. Oh my.
    140:22
    Oh my.