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The Pinball Show Ep 140: Is The Sky Falling In Pinball?

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Nov 6, 2023
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Analysis

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TL;DR

Stern reduces pricing floors on discontinued games; hosts debate if market is healthy consolidation or concerning decline.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 140 covers Stern Pinball's significant production updates, inventory management strategy allowing dealers to sell discontinued games without minimum pricing floors, and discusses whether the pinball market is experiencing genuine decline or healthy consolidation. Hosts analyze Stern's smart positioning of new products, the distinction between discontinued and in-production pricing floors, and industry dynamics with commentary on how market leadership and manufacturing capacity influence distribution strategy.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball shipped seven different game titles in November alone (Foo Fighter Pros, Deadpool Pros/Premiums, Elvira Blood Red Kiss, Stranger Things Pro/Premium, Godzilla Premium)

    high confidence · Zach Minney citing production update data; verifiable through shipping records

  • Stern removed minimum advertised pricing (MAP) on discontinued games: Rush Pro/Premium, Led Zeppelin Pro/Premium, TMNT Pro/Premium, and home editions (Star Wars Comic Home, Star Wars Home, Jurassic Park Home)

    high confidence · Direct dealer announcement; confirmed by Zach as Flippin' Out Pinball co-owner

  • Pinball Brothers offered $300 rebates per machine sold during Alien Day promotion last year

    high confidence · Zach citing direct experience as dealer; distinguishing this from Stern's current approach

  • November 2023 saw more game shipments than dealers received for the entire prior year

    medium confidence · Zach's estimate based on production schedule; speculative but grounded in documented shipping data

  • Stern Pinball anticipated James Bond Premium as the last game built in 2023, with announcement but no January 2024 builds until after

    medium confidence · Production schedule discussion; Zach expressing belief rather than confirmed information

Notable Quotes

  • “November dealers would probably see more games than they have the entirety of the year.”

    Zach Minney @ ~18:30 — Quantifies unprecedented production surge in Q4 2023

  • “Stern Pinball has dropped the floor price that dealers can advertise and sell... These were discontinued games or assumed discontinued.”

    Zach Minney @ ~26:00 — Announces major pricing policy shift; first time in Stern history

  • “Stern didn't reduce any prices. They're allowing us to lose money.”

    Dennis Creasale @ ~28:30 — Clarifies market misconception about Stern's actual policy change

  • “These games that you've named like Led Zeppelin, TMNT, and Rush—they are not of equal value. Led Zeppelin word is worth less than those other games. It just is because that's what the market dictates.”

    Dennis Creasale @ ~33:00 — Articulates secondary market realities driving Stern's policy

  • “It's normal to lose money on games that you buy new, just like cars and everything else. People just need to get used to that, especially those new people who got in during the pandemic.”

    Dennis Creasale @ ~34:30 — Reframes pandemic-era expectations as abnormal; signals market normalization

  • “The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Like, it doesn't totally mean the sky is falling either.”

    Zach Minney @ ~30:15 — Addresses market panic narrative; distinguishes between signs and actual decline

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyZach MinneypersonDennis CreasalepersonFlippin' Out PinballcompanyPinball BrotherscompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyFoo FightersgameStranger Thingsgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's aggressive production schedule (building more games than ever before) combined with pricing floor removal suggests potential inventory over-production; dealer cash flow constraints limit ability to purchase new games

    medium · Zach's statement: 'if dealers are bogged down with inventory, how are they going to have money to purchase additional games?'; Stern's rationale for policy change directly addresses this

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern Pinball removes minimum advertised pricing (MAP) on discontinued games (Rush, Led Zeppelin, TMNT, Star Wars/Jurassic Park home editions), allowing dealers to sell at any price including below cost

    high · Direct dealer announcement confirmed by Zach Minney; first time in Stern history; precedent exists only with Pinball Brothers rebate structure

  • ?

    product_concern: Hosts address 'sky is falling' panic narrative in industry but note that inventory glut and pricing pressure may indicate real market stress beneath surface optimism

    medium · Zach's explicit statement 'doesn't totally mean the sky is falling either' suggesting partial validity to concern; recognition that Stern's moves are response to specific inventory challenge

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern has expanded factory capacity, workforce, and supply chain to support sustained high-volume production; new factory and parts availability enabling previously impossible throughput

    medium · Zach's explicit statement: 'They have the parts to build games. They have a new factory, new workers lined up to build. They have more resources'; contextualizes why volume surge is viable

  • $

Transcript

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0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:13
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. This week on the Pinball Show, all is back to normal as we pour the hottest pinball juice into your parched, blood-red, kissed mouth. On episode 140, Din Din and I talk Stern production updates for games and accessories, reduced pricing on Stern pinball machines, upcoming rumored games from Stern and the other pinball companies, more Elton John coverage, Pinball Brothers Alien Ripley Edition game, and overall business and sales strategies. Barrels of fun continuing to trend in the right direction. Spooky's bug being like the Easter Bunny on his new Screamin' Streams. The wholly coveted Back to the Future license being rumored as a future Dutch pinball game. an open letter leading to an open email from Multimorphic, and the bitch is back with Pinball Market Trends.
1:12
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Way down in Louisiana, down in New Orleans. Dennis, I feel like I haven't spoke with you in so long. This is the Pinball Show, and we're in episode 140. Two weeks. It's been two weeks. It's been, what, six weeks since we had good audio here on the Pinball Show. Some people thought you sounded okay. I'm fired up. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to talk some pinball. Yeah, I am too, and I got to get my ass to Mars right after this episode records, so we probably don't have a lot to do in the intro. What? Mars? Where are you going? No, that was my reference to, I got another. We're recording this behind the scenes. We're doing it a day early because I got a Chiefs game on the time we normally record. So Zach was so kind to move it up a day. But I also normally do my wristwatch live stream in the morning on Saturdays. So I've got this all packed in like a little can of sardines. You know what I am missing that we're doing this a day early? Upstairs right now at 6 in the morning. No, it's not 6 in the morning, but it is quite early. I am missing the festivities of the mini household because Dennis here in Evansville, Indiana, it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's Christmas. Dennis, it's Christmas time here at the mini household. I believe it. Oh, I believe it. The tree is going up, Charlie Brown. You can't stop it. It's not even Thanksgiving. I don't care. It's November. That means it's Christmas time. The commercials are starting. So, you know, I know I'm losing this battle to not have Christmas be year-round. But I'm not kidding because I pay attention to this stuff. Lindor. I think it was Lindor. Maybe it was Lindt Chocolate. One of those chocolatiers started their Christmas ads before Halloween. I love it. They're dethawing Mariah Carey as we speak. She's making an appearance. The queen of Christmas.
Godzilla
game
Deadpoolgame
Elvira's Blood Red Kissgame
James Bond Premiumgame
Guardians of the Galaxygame
Rush Pro/Premiumgame
Led Zeppelin Pro/Premiumgame
TMNT (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) Pro/Premiumgame
Star Wars Comic Home / Star Wars Home Editiongame
Jurassic Park Home Editiongame
Craig Bobbyperson
The Pinball Showmedia

market_signal: Secondary market depreciation on discontinued games (Led Zeppelin, TMNT, Rush) creates pricing pressure; Stern's policy shift signals recognition that holding minimum pricing on dead stock damages dealer relationships and market liquidity

high · Dennis's articulation of market value differentiation; Zach's dealer perspective on inventory burden; industry precedent with Pinball Brothers rebates

  • ?

    community_signal: Craig Bobby removed from public rotation and placed behind Patreon paywall for failure to deliver contracted Top Stories content at Pinball Expo; penalty framed humorously but represents content moderation

    high · Direct announcement of penalty box placement; explanation of contractual obligations; Patreon-exclusive content release

  • ?

    product_strategy: James Bond Pro edition status uncertain; anticipated December 2023 build may be pushed to early 2024; represents possible production schedule flexibility or constraint

    low · Zach's statement about uncertainty: 'there's no recognition of James Bond Pro'; speculation rather than confirmed data; multiple possible explanations

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Unprecedented Q4 2023 production surge: seven game titles shipped in November alone (Foo Fighters, Deadpool, Elvira, Stranger Things, Godzilla variants); estimate suggests more November volume than entire prior year

    high · Zach's documented production schedule; shipping confirmations for Elvira Friday prior to episode; dealer visibility into order fulfillment

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Shift from pandemic-era expectations (new games hold resale value) to normalization (expect depreciation like automobiles); hosts frame this as healthy market maturation rather than crisis

    medium · Dennis's repeated emphasis on 'normal' expectations; framing new buyer panic as pandemic artifact; acknowledgment that market cycles existed historically

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern using product-by-product pricing strategy: maintain MAP on in-production games to protect margins and collectability; remove MAP only on discontinued titles; use LE scarcity to prop up secondary market value

    high · Dennis's analysis of LE market mechanics; hosts' discussion of maintaining floors on current products while liberalizing discontinued ones; strategic differentiation between product tiers

    • 3:10
    We must stop. We must stop, Sid. Oh, my God. It's Whoville, baby. And the big Christmas question and discussion, debate within my household this year is the following. Turkey or ham? We decided this summer, you know, we came together, collaborated, and we said, hey, the tree's getting bigger this year. Okay.
    3:35
    Gone are the days of the 12-footer, my friend. Can we push 15? Can we push 18? 21? Let's get a big-ass Christmas tree. So we've all agreed on that. But the big question is, do we go snow on the tree or no snow? Our family historically, Dennis, has not been a snow-filled Christmas tree, if you know what I mean. It's like the artificial snow that's already been planted on the limbs and the conifer needles.
    4:04
    Okay. Do you go? So we don't know. We're going today to pick out the Christmas tree. Do you put colorful lights on your tree or is it all white? You know, it changes from year to year. just because Nicole likes spinning money.
    4:18
    It just depends. We don't know. We want to go thin. I can't give you any guidance on that. I basically throw up a teeny little fiber optic tree that I don't even decorate. You've got the Charlie Brown tree. Basically. It's a little more fleshed out. It's had a little bit more time to grow than the Charlie Brown tree. And growing up, we did what I think I didn't realize because I only saw a few Christmas trees growing up. We didn't go around to Christmas parties and stuff. So I didn't understand there were elegant trees. We did what would be called a gaudy tree. A gaudy tree. So we would take, we'd put up the tree, it would be an artificial tree, and we would put every ornament we had on the tree, colorful lights on the tree. and then tubs, because we recycled this, so we just put them in old popcorn tents, tubs and tubs and tubs of tinsel, so much so that it was just like a silver sheet. You couldn't even see the ornaments. Yeah.
    5:20
    That's what we did. Growing up, we did the same thing at my household, but my dad was really into tinsel, so he had that shit in the vacuum cleaner for years to come. I bet there's still tinsel in there. Yeah, we had to be careful about it. We weren't allowed to vacuum the tinsel. But they had the real tree. They always had the real tree. You went downstairs and you're like, ah, it smells like a gas station bathroom. Oh, yeah. No, we would go to my paternal grandparents. We would usually, when we were younger, every other year, we'd either do Thanksgiving or Christmas. There's trees everywhere in Alaska. No, no, this was in Arkansas. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was the maternal side in Alaska. But we would go and we would, because he had about a 200-acre farm, and most of it was wooded because he actually raised chickens, so he didn't need most of the farmland. We would go and we'd chop down the tree. We'd go and find a tree on the property. Yep. And we would, the one that would fit, and we would saw it down, and we would bring it back. And so we actually would go get the tree from the land and then decorate it. Oh, Christmas chickens. They were regular chickens. They did not get festive, like green and red feed for Christmas. I'd put little ornaments on little chickens. This was like one of the massive, it was for Tyson. So he was a, I mean, it was a massive coop, like thousands of chickens.
    6:39
    Stinky Christmas. Yeah. Oh, the whole land. You knew when you were heading there, when you first got on the road and he was the last house at the end of this dirt road, because you could smell the ammonia from the chicken. Oh man. What a segue we're going to have from Christmas. We kind of, kind of skip Thanksgiving because it's food, whatever. I'll probably. That is adult Halloween. I heard someone describe it like that this week. We're in the Caribbean most of the time. And then we had everybody likes their Halloween and all that. You know, I like Halloween. That's fine. But Halloween just marks, ooh, we're close to Christmas for me. I'm that guy. All right. Yeah, I can tell. But the holiday before that was your birthday. And we said on the pinball show, we're going to do a giveaway for your birthday. We didn't say anything. I said that all people had to do is comment on social media to celebrate Dennis Creasel's 31st birthday. All they have to do is comment their favorite Creasel moment historically from, what, five, six years we've been doing it? I don't even know. And they could win a limited edition Creasel clone shirt, the custom shirts. And they did. They did very well. So I thought instead of giving a shirt away, maybe we give a couple away, a handful away here. Here are some of our fans, listeners, consumers, whatever the hell you want to call them. Here are some of their favorite moments of yours truly. Is it yours truly if I say it? No. His truly?
    8:07
    Who knows? How to pick a favorite when they're all so good by Colin Alzheimer, kineticist. Well, you've got to pick it or you don't win, Colin. That sounds like not having one and then just saying that. And rule out any of the ones that chose the TWIP podcast. It's not the same show. It's totally different. Peyton Manning played on the Broncos. Be still a cold. I mean, come on. A lot of happy birthdays. A little happy birthday din-din. My favorite moments are when Dennis cracks up and just totally loses it. Mine too, Frank. Happy birthday, Dennis. From Steve. Steve says, thanks, Dennis, for keeping the show on track. Happy birthday, Dennis. From Sean. I love asking Dennis questions, Winky, says Joel Engelberth from Triple Dream Pinball Podcast and Flippin' Outstream. He said also my favorite quote from the pinball show is from Dennis to Zach, quote, quit interrupting with your dumb questions.
    9:03
    I don't remember which one that was. That might have been a fan layout debate. That's pretty good. I think Joel gets a T-shirt. Nicely done. And, Jill, we've got my favorite Dennis moment was his breakdown of the swatch Blancpain on his watch channel. Kevin. That's not even the Twit Podcast. Brilliant analysis. Kevin. I did do a breakdown of the switch. And you had it right the first time. Blancpain. I love any time that Dennis does Nordman. Ooh, I do too, Michael. Swear to me. There it is. Nicole, my wife, even said happy birthday, Dennis. Jeff Tenzi said his favorite moment is when you discuss street level versus single level. That's t-shirt worthy because Dennis is known for that. Did I do that on a podcast? I guess I have. I have done it on this show. I always think of the article. That was like my first, in my opinion, really good article I wrote was about the street level series. Congratulations on the shirt, Jeff. Send me your info. Josh Roop from Loser Kid Pinball Podcast says he likes whenever Dennis Creasle does his exasperated side. one of Zach Minney's over-the-top statements that are either said for shock or pure ridiculousness. Now, look, Josh, numbers don't lie. I don't even want the facts. I like how long this birthday segment is. Look, give me a couple seconds. This is celebrating my buddy. Drew Boivere from Poor Man's Pinball Podcast says, My favorite moment is any moment that Dennis jabs Zach Minney because it's so satisfying. Fuck you, Drew.
    10:29
    You wouldn't have said that to him if he bought games from you. He does. No, he does. Buy more games. I love Drew so much because people accuse him of shilling my products. Oh, really? I feel so bad for Drew. Yeah, Drew has a special place in my heart and in my pants. Tanner says, happy birthday, Dennis. Thanks for keeping the shill at bay. Man, these just turned into Zag Jabs. Kevin, one of our most loyal fans, said his favorite moments, wearing his Pinball Market Trends t-shirt to Expo and meeting you. Oh, yeah. Okay. I recall this. Then on the next pinball show, he mentions meeting someone at Expo who's wearing a pinball Marcus Trent's t-shirt and him knowing that I was one of the people who likes his most hated segment. Oh, Kevin, that's good. You know what? Shirt worthy. Congratulations, Kevin. Get me your info. Do you remember just like Pepperidge Farm? Because Craig Bobby says Pepperidge Farm remembers. And I also love that Jeremy remembers because he said his favorite moments every time that He brings up to Zach that I still need to do the rubber band episode for SDTA. That's true. When are you going to do it? You made a big deal about branching out a pinball with straight down the middle, and then we got a whole lot of not rubber bands, which you said you were going to do, rubber band collectors. We're so busy filming for these manufacturers all the yumminess that you're about to see in the coming months and year. How about that? Okay, what else we got? Singez. Ooh, go check out his YouTube. He says, congratulations, Dennis. You look great for 29 years old. He's 31. Jeff says favorite Dennis moments when he tried to correct Zach on the definition of a fan layout. And second is when he put his foot down for no singing from Zach. Some people hated that I put my foot down on those. They thought it came across too hateful. You know what? I want to give Jeff a T-shirt because he did classify it correctly. He explained it when Dennis tried to correct Zach on the definition of a fan. I felt he wrote it in a way that he acknowledged that you didn't accept that you were wrong. Okay. Well, Jeff, let me know which way it was. I guess it can be taken either way. And if it was my way, then you get a T-shirt. You get a shirt. And if it's not, then you get an R2-D2 topper.
    12:38
    Oh, wait. No, I can't. I don't have the authority to give those away. Yeah, Ben, your local guy, Ben said he enjoys Dennis' little zingers as he throws them out on the show the most, but also visiting with him at a couple local tournaments as well. And a couple more here. Dennis's best moment is when he does market trends, says Michael, as well as Kevin Higgins saying, remember when he did market trends and had all the polynomials to back it up? Polynomials don't lie. Oh, that was back in Twip podcast. I haven't touched that in a long time. I did an article after I did that episode, and then I don't think I've ever market trended a trend again. And then Sean ends it off with, my favorite Dennis moment is when you know that he does a facepalm, even though you're listening to an audio podcast. Sean, you get a t-shirt, reach out to me, because Dennis' poor face is all red every time we get done recording. And speaking of red in the face, I don't even know if Craig Bobby knows this is coming, does he, Dennis? Well, he definitely does not, because none of us told him.
    13:40
    Craig Bobby's back in a big way, but the only way you're going to hear him is behind the paywall. That's right. We are. It's a ting time.
    13:52
    Craig Bobby gets reprimanded for two reasons. Not showing his Canadian face for weeks. Yep. That's reason one. And reason two is he didn't do a top stories. He did a bunch of pinball machine reviews.
    14:07
    So that's going behind the paywall because that's not what you're paid for. Oh, I love you. You got to keep the Bobby guessing. He had a little too much fun at Expo. He was drunk most of the time. I think you took a shirt off a couple times. So you're in the penalty box. You wore the TPS pin, and you made us proud. But for this Top Stories with Craig Bobby, it's a good one, too, I assure you. It's long. Well, it's long. It's big. It's uncut. It's everything that Craig Bobby is.
    14:40
    Exclusively at the Pinball Show, Patreon subscription membership. All you got to do is go to patreon.com slash the pinball show. Sign up today and get all kinds of fun stuff and swag and interactions and discords and good stuff. Do it now. Do it. Do it now so that Craig Bobby can come out of the penalty box. Thank you. He's a Canadian hockey player. You got to let him slap save. I want Craig Bobby to have two less teeth in front.
    15:09
    Just two less up front. Oh, we love you, CB. Stern Pinball on the news, as they always are. These people haven't heard a good old healthy, girthy production update lately. That's true. So I'm going to bring it to them. So I'm going to unbox it for them right now, just like that wonderful package under the Christmas tree that's marked to Din Din from Zach. Don't send me anything this year. Last couple of weeks at Stern Pinball have been a flurry of pinball machines just leaving the factory.
    15:38
    Food Fighters Pros, they've been coming out. Deadpool pros, Deadpool premiums. I still can't get over how many pinball machines are being made a day by Stern Pinball. We'll talk about that later. This week, remember just, what, two weeks ago they announced Elvira's Blood Red Kiss special edition game, Dennis? Yeah, about back then. They've already started shipping. We had some of them start to ship Friday, and the remainder are going to ship this week, I think. They're doing, I think they were doing last week was building for over the pond. They'll be shipping them early this week for domestic sales. So Elvira is already on the move. Late this week into the week of the 13th is Stranger Things Pro already. And then the week of the 20th is going to be Stranger Things Premium. And the hits don't stop there. The end of November is Godzilla Premium into December. Think about November. I estimated that November dealers would probably see more games than they have the entirety of the year. Listener, just think about that for a second. We had Foo Fighter Pros, Deadpool Pros, Deadpool Premiums, Elvira Blood Red Kiss Edition, Stranger Things Pro, Stranger Things Premium, Godzilla Premium. That's seven titles, as well as any other titles that dealers wanted to purchase that are in stock. That's a bunch of pinball machines. But it makes sense because as we're in Q4 right now, the Christmas time is upon us, the gift-giving season. And a lot of people purchase pinball machines in November and December. That's a lot of pinball machines. In December, though, don't worry. We still have Guardians of the Galaxy, that one final build commemorative edition coming early December. Mid to late December is still James Bond Premium. Stern is anticipating James Bond Premium being the last game built this year. Oh, so no new game at the end in December like we've often seen. Well, I believe there will be. I still believe there will be an announcement, but not building until January. That's what I believe. Okay. Well, I mean, that could happen. Sure. The other question I had is they had told us James Bond Premium and Pro in December. But all of a sudden, there's no recognition of James Bond Pro. So either they just forgot to tell us that it's also going to be in late December, or it gets bumped into early January, which I could see. Or maybe they just bump it out all the way because they're like, well, whatever. We'll build it at some point. I don't know. But I can tell you, January 2024, I think we're going to start seeing the next Cornerstone Pro and LE ship that month, as well as the premiums coming February 2024. Q2 of 2024 include the likes of Foo Fighters Pro, Venom Pro, Venom Premium. Q3 of 2024, Godzilla Pro, Jurassic Park Pro, Foo Fighters Pro. And then in Q4, these are all estimates and they probably all will change, but Q4 of next year, Foo Fighters Premium, James Bond Pro and Premium, Deadpool Pro, and Stranger Things Pro and Premium possibility. If they decide to do another run, it will be likely late next year. Also in 2024 at some point, Star Wars and The Mandalorian.
    18:55
    Discontinued, remember, Iron Maiden, Avengers, Infinity Quest, Star Wars Home, Star Wars Comic Home, and Jurassic Park Home. Accessories updates, Dennis, people want to know where in the hell their toppers are in those expression lighting kits. Good Lord. And now, of course, the bell of the ball. Where's my UV kit for Stranger Things? Yeah, add that to the pile. Recently shipped from Stern Pinball includes Elvira toppers. Still in stock at FlippinOutPinball.com. Stern Pinball alley sign. We never got to talk about that. Did you see that big old sign? Yes, yeah, that big old sign. Love it. Stern Pinball pop bumper game room light, which I think is pretty cool, too. Rush interactive shooter rod back in stock everywhere. Rush Expression Lighting Kits in stock everywhere. Finally, only two years late, James Bond Art Plates. Bond Accessories in General. Batman Insider Connected Replacement Arches. People have been waiting for those, too. And Shaker Motors. Shaker Motors, we had to wait about three, four months for those to get back in stock. Should have gone Red Trimmer. No.
    19:58
    Value your cabinet. November. November is coming, and Rush Toppers are what they're supposed to be building. November and December is going to mark Stranger Things accessories. They're saying November, but I'm giving them a little December bump, too, just because I know how they work. Yeah, it's good to play a little safe. December, they claim that they've bumped up. They were going to make Godzilla toppers in Q1, but they're aiming to do some Godzilla toppers in December. And then Q1 2024, they claim to be making Iron Maiden toppers again. All right, the big story from Sturm Pinball and from the pinball industry right now and the hobby is this. Sturm Pinball has, I don't remember the last time they've done this, if they've ever done this, but they have dropped, Matt Pricing or the UMRP, in other words, the listener, they've dropped the floor price that dealers can advertise and sell the following games. Rush Pro and Premium Models, Led Zeppelin Pro and Premium Models, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pro and Premium Models. These were discontinued games or assumed discontinued. Sit down, Ray. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry about your Rush loss. But Rush might come back. So they said, what, a week or two ago, these games, they're no longer making them. So dealers can now sell them for what they want to So that was a marked event because we not seen that before What does that even mean Fire sale baby Well, there you go. And then a day or two ago, Stern Pinball announces to dealers that the following games also can now be advertised with no minimum pricing.
    21:48
    Star Wars Comic Home, Star Wars Home Edition, and the Jurassic Park Home Edition. Oh, I had not heard about these. So these were MSRP'd for $49.99, and dealers were not allowed to ever advertise nor sell them for under that price. Now that this pricing structure is lifted for these titles, I, as a dealer at Flippin' Out Pinball, can sell these for a dollar if I wanted to. I could sell them for whatever I want. Wow, think of all the money you'd lose. sorry so they are starting sending you rebates okay so here's what i wanted to clarify because i think some people don't don't don't the reason why i've always complained about the floor especially after a set period of time so overall i like this decision but the whole point is so that you can clear out inventory if you need to uh which may mean selling at a loss potentially It just depends. It's not like all of a sudden the dealers are going to be, unless there's something special behind the scenes I'm not aware of, are actually going to get some sort of purchase, buyback, rebate deal from, you know, they already sold you the game. So you're just kind of stuck with it. Then Ball Brothers has done that, actually. Yeah, and I've heard this has happened in some other industries before. But by and large, usually it's just sort of a, hey, you might have taken more stock than you needed. and what I think is nice here is Stern's kind of recognizing at some point it's healthier though to say you know what we understand you can't just hold on to this forever versus JJP which was you have to hold on to this forever until you actually try and see if they'll blink and then they turn into that little wimpy Shiba Inu dog that's all like please don't hurt us and then you can do whatever you want I guess it's okay if you violate all our contracts So, yeah, a perfect, perfect analysis there. See, it's a perfect, it was my Shibu new analysis. Yeah, perfect rundown. So what I wanted to correct people, because I've heard a lot in our hobby saying, eh, Stern just reduced prices.
    23:56
    No, Stern didn't reduce, shit, they didn't reduce any prices. I love you, Stern. No, it's, no, they didn't do anything. They're allowing us to lose money. I mean, reduce prices. so no oh they're if they reduce the prices then that yeah it would be like dennis is saying they would send us uh you know credit for every sale on that kind of thing uh no that's not how this works now that has that has happened in the industry uh with with pinball brothers i can openly say that whenever they did that uh that sale for alien day i believe was last year um They said, hey, for Alien Day, this marked time you get, I forgot how much it was, $300 off each model. So if we had a completed verified sale, we would send them over verification documentation of that, and they would credit our account for upcoming games or whatever it may be. So that was a marked difference because we had not seen that. I had not seen that in the industry for years.
    24:57
    So Stern's not doing that. They're just saying, hey, you can sell. And I actually think this is a good move as well because it is allowing dealers to free up. Dennis, we preached this months back and got a lot of discussion throughout the industry with our talk about it. And that is, at what point do you allow dealers to cut their losses without breaking their agreement that they're trying to, we're trying to uphold? because there are still dealers that are going to do, you know, under the rug, kind of take this for the, you know, that's going to happen. But publicly, I think it's a good idea because it frees up some space. But it's also telling as well, I believe. Oh, yeah. If this had been two years ago, there would never have been a need for this. Absolutely. But it doesn't mean, because then I hear people, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Like, it doesn't totally mean the sky is falling either. Keep in mind that they're building a lot more games than they were before. They have the parts to build games. They have a new factory, new workers lined up to build. They have more resources to build games. So there's more games going out of that factory. Thus, they have to be able to fulfill the products they're making. And if dealers are bogged down with inventory, how are they going to have money to purchase additional games? So there's many ways to assure this type of system that they have in place, one of which is allowing dealers to reduce pricing on some of the discontinued models. So I think it works especially – but Stern's smart. Is it fair to say, Dennis, that Stern Pinball, they are the main player in the way the market flows, right? Yes. They dictate the market in many ways, I believe. uh obviously they're there's well we don't know their exact size and scale in the market to like the exact percent of market share we know it's extremely high i also though think that perhaps what may be more telling is they've been in this industry for so long that they've been around like back when these games occasionally did have to i mean we we've most of us have read tales about like here's the discounting that was going on for wheel of fortune and stuff back in the day because they couldn't move the units. And so they've gone through enough of an economic cycle to be like, oh, yeah, we're getting back into this state. We have to make sure we position our distributors to be able to keep accepting new products. And that's key because they won't make money if they can't sell their new products to you all. Yeah, absolutely. And with the flurry of it, they could just slow down new games. That would help that market. But they've kind of set up a system that's going against that. There's a lot of things. They could reduce price. But some of those decisions, like slowing up the line, for example, doesn't give the same potential return to their investors. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And Stern Pinball, it's like the chicken or egg thing. They're where they're at because they, in many respects, are the smartest. They're the most experienced. They know what they're doing. So instead of being haphazard, instead of being impulsive and saying, you know, no longer in map pricing for it, they're smart. They're saying, hey, the stuff that we no longer sell that's discontinued, do what you want with it. That's fine. And they're still upholding the value of their products by maintaining the ones that are in production, maintaining a flooring on that. I still think it's a good idea to maintain. I know you and I disagreed in some respects to that, but I think that's smart as well. It makes more sense. I'm okay with at least some limit, like for a time period, I understand. And whether you want it to say that time period is as long as it's in production, I think that's pretty reasonable. Here's the thing. The first step. I mean, the thing that in reality, the reality that we all truly know, even if we don't think about it, we know it subconsciously. these games that you've even named like led zeppelin tmnt and rush they are not of equal value led zeppelin word is worth less than those other games it just is because that's what the market dictates i don't on the second hand market i don't disagree and so stern recognizing that they don't you know ultimately once they've made their sales especially once they're not making them anymore what do they care what you sell the game for i don't know why jjp was so and again i I get that it's been more of the standard with all the others to basically just have this minimum pricing, a floor that you couldn't sell under. I've always felt, to me, especially with JJP, as expensive as their games are, that they have almost desperately tried to prop up the value of the games so people don't feel like a sucker buying them new. But the bottom line is it's normal to lose money on games that you buy new, just like cars and everything else. and people just need to get used to, especially those of you who are new, who got in during the pandemic, that was not normal. Get used to normal. You're not supposed to be able to sell a game. If you buy a Rush Pro, you're not supposed to be able to sell it for the same amount you bought it for. That's silly. Yeah, and Stern is really smart and intelligent when it comes to how they're positioning new products.
    30:13
    They could, in the future, they could lower pricing, they could reduce the... Because the LE market kind of helps hold that collectability, the pricing. Right, right. The LE market operates differently than standard market forces because of the artificially constrained supply. So you could see if overall sales are going down, you could see them pull back on LE numbers just to uphold that highest model, uphold the value of that. And then you'll see kind of a static movement. Like you'll see it'll settle a little bit. And I think they should. I think they should consider reducing the number of LEs. I think they could consider. I wouldn't consider it on their next one. I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't even change pricing. They're not going to sell out of Dungeons & Dragons. We'll see. But JGP is a whole other story. But the bottom line is that as the market changes, so do consumer buying patterns, and so do manufacturer decision-making. And if anybody's going to do it right, Stern Pinball does it right. So does that mean with Discontinued Avengers and Iron Maiden that at some point those are the next ones on the chopping block to get the reduced map? Yeah, I bet they do this for everything that goes out of production moving forward. Does that also mean that they're not going to do another home edition?
    31:37
    I don't think the home edition has ever really found the market that they were hoping to find. They're too expensive for what they're targeting. I'm with George Gomez. There's something there. There's certainly something there. Conceptually, the pieces I think are right. The problem is that you're so close to a Stern Pro in price at that stage, especially – and you have to consider what segment of the market is like. They're going to insist they're only going to buy new, but they can't get themselves up to the Stern Pro pricing, and so they're going to go and get a home edition. And still a complex machine. It's still in ways less accessible than the commercial with the lockdown bar and with the back glass. It's kind of a mess.
    32:23
    But buy them now. I'm flipping out. So rumored games. Stern, the next rumored game is Jaws, Keith Ellin. That's the rumor.
    32:32
    We'll see if that happens. If it does, then I think everything's going to be fine. We've heard Dungeons and Dragons as a rumor now. I cast magic missile. How do you think a Dungeons and Dragons would do?
    32:44
    Not great. Yeah, well, my son would like it. He's a big D&D guy. I mean, I like D&D, but I just... You know, there was a D&D game. Oh, yeah. I remember. Was that a Bally who did that? It was probably at Indus for the last four years. It had those flex ramps like Hardbody did, so... Is it featured in this game? John Wick is a rumor? John Wick. Yeah, we've talked about how maybe that one's a little past its prime. People think John Wick is like one of the greatest themes ever. Look, it's a good theme, but it's no good. People just like Keanu Reeves a lot. No Harry Potter. All right, how about Jersey Jack? Neither is Legacy of Hogwarts. The new Elton John that's out. People still up and down with this game.
    33:39
    It's so hard to get a better look at this game when they're not shipping yet. It's hard to get it because the only opinions are those that were at Chicago Expo. I hope to see these rolling out within two weeks here. At least starting to roll out. Maybe the end of the month. I don't know. But they had a new gameplay video released by Jersey Jack Pinball, a sexy little production piece there too. I give credit to, it's probably Ken Cromwell that did that. That was really, really well done. I'm going to actually learn some techniques in editing. I'm going to use those. That was nice. So go watch that. Did that video, does gameplay videos help drum up sales? I think they could. I think they could hurt. We've seen streams that hurt products. So it could go either way. This one in particular I don't think hurt at all. I think if anything is because they didn't have feature ad, because they didn't have initial gameplay, because they're not shipping yet. Every little bit helps because people just don't know enough about this game yet. Yeah. Based off of the feedback from Expo, I assume the video will probably help since I didn't really hear complaints about – I only really heard praise actually about how the game played. And so given that, I think in their instance, it's not one of those scenarios where you see like the spooky scenario where it's like here's Halloween. It's like don't show gameplay. Just sell it off of theme because gameplay will only hurt you. This isn't coming in hot like Halloween did. Sure. You're right. It's not coming in like a Rocketman. It's coming in like a Tiny Dancer.
    35:18
    I was going to try it. I'm not even going to touch that. Nicely done. And what about their upcoming rumored games? Because I don't know about you, but a lot of people are like, all right, what do they got coming up next? Their rumored games actually are really strong. They're very strong. Which is good because I feel like we've just gotten through the trilogy of not strong themes out of them. We've heard the likes of Harry Potter. That would be huge. The Matrix. Well, that'd be big too. Top Gun or Maverick. Wow. All of those are strong. Hey, J.J.P., if you've got one of these, celebrate. If you've got two of them, take a breath. I think you're going to be okay. If you have all three of these, holy shit, we have a different company here. Unless they're lacking features and multi-ball heavy.
    36:01
    Then we're in trouble again. Yeah, I would love any of those themes. I would love it. There's a couple more that I can't discuss that people aren't hinting on there. But, man, I hope those three are true. What about Pinball Brothers? Last time we were having... You forgot about... Yeah, that was the audio that I had during the last episode. No, you're right. Alien. Ripley Edition was announced right before Chicago Pinball Expo. This is your favorite movie or one of your favorite movies. One of them, yeah. So they come out with this Ripley Edition. They're limiting the run starting mid-November. They're going to start shipping these things. It's not a limited model per se, but they're making so many November, December. I don't know if they're moving on to something else. And then you might see them run it again in the future. But the staggering thing to me, Dennis, is the price on this. I don't know what to make of this move by Pinball Brothers because the pricing of this is $79.95 plus tax and shipping. But at $79.95, that undercuts their lowest model, the standard version, by $1,000. Not to mention their limited version that's over $10, I believe. Seven nine nine five. That's yeah, that's a pretty credible deal. It's well, I mean, Pinball Brothers, remember the price reduction they did on Queen as well. They are of all the companies. They're the only one I've seen that actually seems to be reading the market and then saying, you know what? We we cannot. And maybe it's because they're so small. But I think that what their actions are saying is we cannot sustain at our pandemic pricing that we selected. We are going to scale it back, and they have decided to go ahead and eat whatever blowback there would be about those that bought at the higher pricing because they need to make the sales, and they realize they cannot position themselves at the price tier that they were in. Not anymore. Yeah, they are reactive. Their thumb is to the market in a lot of ways. My only concern would be that this stays at this level of reactivity because they need to just make sure that their quick decisions aren't thus putting the rest of the train in a bad spot to keep up. My bigger concern isn't actually the pricing. It's that they went back to the alien well. Okay. So I'm concerned that they aren't in a position to go with a new title, which would normally be the strategy when you start raising funds. And I think it's a bigger sign of weakness to go back and start milking your old title because I think this suggests Queen is not doing what they thought it would do. And they're like, well, let's use the old highway alien design because people actually like that. And let's finally put in what people really wanted and put it at a very attractive price compared to what we were selling for. and then let's make all these parts and stuff available so people can upgrade. It just seems like maybe they're cash strapped. But financially and from a business perspective, if their next product is not quite ready yet, instead of jumping the gun and announcing that, collecting sales and then delaying the productivity on that, I think this is a smart move. I think this works better than a lot of other choices that a company might have made. Sure. When I was talking about the concern, it's kind of twofold here. One being they just need to make sure that doing this is fine, but they have dealers with a lot of SVs in stock. Who in hell is going to want an SV now? They have a lot of dealers with LVs in stock. I can still see the sale of those, but still that's a $3,000 difference, and you get some upgrades here in the lesser model. It's time for permission to go below four. You've got to be careful there. Didn't want to leave the rest of the train behind. Survival has to come above the safety of the train. And a lot of this stuff was announced pending still licensure approval. I don't know how much I like that, you know. So just that's my only cautious thing. There's a lot of things that Pinball Brothers is doing that is leading the industry from a distribution standpoint. But we just got to watch it. We don't want to get sloppy. they do have on this new Ripley edition audio and video assets of Sigourney Weaver's character Ripley, everybody was like oh, it's on the trans light of the back glass, they were like, they don't have her likeness, they just have the side of her face or something like that no, they have, I've seen the audio, I've seen the video assets, they're good, you get away from her bitch, you get all that stuff so it's all in there these people are dead, Burke, don't you realize what you've done here? it's all in there I don't know if they go Aliens 3 but yeah, they certainly have Alien and Aliens. And I also liked the fact that the new code for this game is also going to be made available for free to those SV and LV owners. So that was a good move. And then even further a good move, all the Ripley Edition parts and differences, so they're working with a partnership with the Art of Pimble, updating the screen surround to be a nice molded thing, painted. the xenomorph gets a new paint job that comes on the Ripley edition an apron decal that's new and neat they're even selling a Lior's making a topper to sell as an accessory for this game but I like that the stuff that comes on the Ripley edition can also be purchased by the other owners of the SV and LV games including they even priced us out cabinet decals and translates so nobody can complain if they're like well I like the artwork on the Ripley, this is bullshit.
    41:48
    It's pretty affordable for the cabinet decals. Now, you've got to put them on, but they're still selling all of that stuff, even the screen surrounding, apron decals, all that stuff. All of that stuff. Topper has been selling crazy. That thing came out at $13.95. They're building it in Q1, I believe. Those things are selling fantastic. Did you see the Topper for that? I did not. Yeah, it's pretty nicely done. I like it. Now, what are the rumored upcoming games? And sales-wise, Ripley Edition is selling better than I thought it would. I thought everybody was satiated by aliens. If they wanted one, they had one. Kind of like Elvira, Blood, Bread, Kiss. I figured sales would be eh, whatever. No, sales of Elvira continue to do way better than I've ever expected. People love them some Elvira. Same here with Ripley Edition. We're still getting sales for those, and I thought we'd sell maybe a handful. But no, they're doing very well.
    42:46
    But I think it's at $79.95. It's just a steal of a deal. Yeah, the pricing is definitely helping. Overall I think it the right move for their company to have done it this way And I forgot to even mention Pinball Brothers before was kind of like some of the other overseas companies where you would have to pay this freight duties and all this stuff It ended up being $1,400 to $1,800 to get a game over here, whether it's from Haggis or Dutch – whatever it is. They've actually set up some kind of shop, some kind of building, some kind of factory here in the U.S. and no longer I don't think we have to deal with that. So when customers are buying Ripley Edition, they're just paying the shipping from the U.S. to their place. So that helps as well. Now, there are rumored games for PB include Twilight Zone. I've heard Twilight Zone remake or just some WPC remake working with Planetary Pinball. I've heard, I think it was from Pinball Paris person, a famous European band is what their next game is going to be in Q1? I don't even know what that would be. A famous European band. You could say the Beatles. Yeah.
    44:01
    What's the most famous European band that hasn't had a pinball machine yet? U2 maybe? Yeah, maybe. I guess U2. Gorillas would count. I'm just saying.
    44:15
    Alright. They go from alien queen to gorillas? All right, maybe Ramstein. Duel! Duelist! Okay. Let's have barrels of fun. Now, barrels of fun out of Houston, creating the Labyrinth. They continue to slowly ship those, building up their production capabilities. They hope to have a clear schedule of game designations in the coming weeks. in other words for those of you who have pre-ordered and want to know where you fall on the line when am i going to get my game did i buy direct did i buy through a dealer which one was better which one what they are they're figuring that all out right now so that's good well what it said when i ordered direct it was number 705 that means i'm not no it doesn't really doesn't mean shit it means nothing they're going through it i hope they do like they do Spooky Pinball, where Spooky Pinball, when we buy a game, or when a game is announced and as a dealer we buy an allotment of games, they tell us, okay, out of your 20 games, out of your 200 games, you're going to get 5 here, you're going to get 10 here, here's your numbers, we're going to bill them in order, and it's easier to organize.
    45:33
    Now I know Barrels of Fun was big on order early, and you get in the queue early, which is different than spooky pinball. So I'm glad we got in early. But for like the dealers that didn't get in as one of the initial deal, I don't know what any of this means. I don't know how they're putting their direct sales. I do know that their direct sales, they gave themselves an allotment. They sold out of those. So now it's just buying labyrinths through their dealers. How do you feel about that move? I was mixed on that if I'm them. limiting your... If you're going to sell direct, why limit it? Well, I think it's weird to sell direct and do a distributor network. To me, it's one or the other. Here, here. I'm with you. But if I'm them, I think it's a good PR move. It's a good move to your distribution network, so it makes a lot of people happy, but maybe compromises your own ability to make sales and grow as well. I don't know. I mean, given how new they are, I'm not really going to judge them on the decision too much because I think they're just trying to sort out what they're – despite all their experience, some of the side of it, this particular side of the business is probably new to all of the names I heard that were involved. So they're probably still trying to feel through it. They limited it to 150 units, I believe, for themselves to sell direct. So they've blown through that with their fill. It kind of reminds me of when Stern likes to do the little, like, we'll have a few of these on the website and sell sort of thing. Yep. So I love it as a dealer. Thank you, Barrels of Fun. That makes me happy.
    47:12
    And they've emphasized, like, if they don't sell 1,100, they don't sell 1,100. They're fine moving on. They're not going to come back to the well. Just sell what they sell, and they'll be good. I think estimations are like 800 to 1,000 that they've probably sold.
    47:32
    So even at 800, that's a lot of games to build. Production-wise, I think they're building 6 to 10 games a week right now. They plan to ramp that up by January. They'd like to get to about 10 games a day, whether it's Q1 or whatnot. But they've got to do something. They have two more licensed games in the works. That's the word. Okay. That's the word. With a rumored upcoming game. Everybody's talking about this last week. Everybody's saying their next upcoming game is The Fifth Element. That's a pretty good – that would be a pretty good license. That's a pretty good license. I think, if anything, that may be even a little stronger than Labyrinth. I mean, I would be more interested in Fifth Element. I remember when it came out, it started getting billed as like Gen X's Star Wars. It never turned into that, but it was still a good movie. Corbin Dallas.
    48:24
    She knows it's a multi-pass. And if you want to check out The Labyrinth, all you got to do is go to the Flippin' Out Pinball stream. Joel Engelberth has streamed twice now some wonderful examples of this game. Direct audio, direct video captures. Hell, last week he had on the Rules creator, Bowen Cairns, on the show. right there live in video form, helping them along the way, getting through the maze. I didn't get to catch it. Did Joel explain the rules to Bowen?
    48:55
    Because I hear that's what he does now. That's so good. I love it. Fucking Joel's a rock star. Spooky pinball. I've got to give a shout out to Bug. He's created the Screamin' Stream, and it's going very well. People are loving this. I think you and I have talked about why don't manufacturers do this more whether it's weekly or monthly, do a stream answer some questions bugs like an Easter Bunny hiding little eggs here and there he also sets some traps, he sets little rotten eggs here and there for people, he knows what he's doing, sneaky little booger they're rumored upcoming games, I can't pinpoint there's so many, Evil Dead I've heard Monty Python's Holy Grail I've heard Looney Tunes. I've heard Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I've heard Friday the 13th. I think basically anything that's horror-related is kind of in the mix. Yeah, which it's a lot, especially when it ranges. Like when you're talking like Scooby-Doo, sort of kid spooky all the way up to hardcore Texas Chainsaw Style Terror. I mean, that's a broad spectrum. You know what? I'll start a rumor right now. I heard there's rumblings that in the future they're going to do Saul. How about that? I just added that to my list. Saul. I would not play a game. You hear me now?
    50:18
    Put it in the books. What about Goosebumps, the kids' book series? It's super popular. You know what? I'm putting it down. R.L. Stine. I heard a little. Rubber corner. Goosebumps. Both would be pretty good.
    50:34
    Dutch pinball. Speaking of rumors. Oh, they got the Mariah Carey of rumors, man. All I want for Christmas is Back to the Future. They're rumored upcoming games. Back to the Future. I cannot believe this. What in the hell? It would have to be like a zero asset. Even the clock tower is a potato.
    50:56
    Even the clock tower strikes spud. That's right. It gets electric and turns into mashed taters all over the courtyard. We've got to get the deltator tin up to 88 taters an hour.
    51:13
    I mean, come on, come on. Come on, guys. Why don't you make like a yam and get out of here? Yeah. So stupid.
    51:25
    Oh, Dutch Pinball for the screw. You've got to get to the final dance where everyone just does the mashed potato. Your kids are going to enjoy this french fry.
    51:37
    Please, Dutch, if this is true, don't fuck this up. Please, this is my everything. I want them to have it. I just can't believe it. What are you, the Goonies, too? Oh, man. No. Goonies never say fry.
    51:53
    That's the right one. Damn. Hey, you fries. man don't potato face him just don't i would take current michael jay fox the treasure of hash brown willie what if they got back to the future but like current aged michael jay fox and christopher lloyd i would take that people i was gonna say people will take it people don't care oh man dutch this is funny please just please i'm amazed they're still around still just like Selling Big Lebowski is fascinating to me, to be able to survive on one game that long. I heard a Twivy Award-winning podcaster say that Barry, the designer of the Big Lebowski, is the greatest pinball designer of all time with one designed pinball machine. That is some high praise. I mean, it's kind of interesting. It's like, you know, if you were to do one thing, Let's say Keith Elwin came out and did Godzilla as his first game, and then he's just kind of like, yeah, peace out. And then he just quit. Be like, I want to end on a high note. Now, here's the thing. Being the Back to the Future nut job that I am, I'm not mad that Dutch Pinball, if they have this, I'm not mad because The Big Lebowski is damn awesome. Now, the best designed game of all, fuck off, do you have a right? Like, the Big Lebowski is nothing more – pretty basic design there. I mean, the layout, it's – It's like five shots. Yeah, I mean, because – It's a mess. Yeah. The engineering mechs are fantastic. It's – I mean, it's not bad. I would say, to me, it's sort of what I think of as quintessential 90s Williams. Yeah. That's the vibe I get, and not just from the code, from the layout, too. And I think if that's what you're into, you'll probably really enjoy Big Lebowski. I am really into a lot of that mech stuff, integration stuff, and Big Lebowski's got it in spades. So if it is Back to the Future, if we can get some strong snappy flippers and they last throughout hours, I am a buyer and potentially a seller. Potato-entially a seller. I've never sold a potato. Well, actually I have. I just won't name what game it was. sorry cosmic carnival let's move on to american pinball uh are they still oh i heard they were uh very present at expo with all their cast of actors for galactic tank force did they get game of the expo or they got like booth of the show or something i don't know they patted themselves on the back about something but i was a little at first i thought it was game of the show and then I thought maybe it was booth of the show and then I was too confused. I wanted to meet some of the cast. I did. I thought Clementine was good and Moonraker or Moonstormer. Yeah, I wish I would have said hello. But they had a pretty cool booth. A lot of inflatable stuff. But yeah, they're rumored next game.
    55:06
    GTF's I guess still being... I think Houdini's are being built right now. For the life of me. Man, maybe next week. We're getting close on time. Maybe next week we'll talk about the American pinball shenanigans that distribution has to deal with. Maybe next week. The rumored game, upcoming game, people are mumbling, is Cuphead, the video game series Cuphead.
    55:36
    That's interesting. That's a deep dive, isn't it? Have you played Cuphead? Yes, I think Cuphead may be one of the most beautiful games, I won't even say video games, but games ever created. There's a whole fairly difficult development cycle. We won't talk about it here, but it's a fascinating story about how they made Cuphead because it was very challenging for them. And that game is extremely hard. Which I like that. I like the thought of that. Well, it's basically just a bunch of boss rushes by and large. And I've gone through the first world and that's about it. Pretty platformer, right? I don't know. what it's like a platform just like a 2d well people think it is and it's got a few parts like that but it mostly it's you just fighting basically it's we we call it the format's called boss rush where it's like getting to a boss fight in a 2d or shoot them up or whatever yeah except you just go and fight another boss and then another that's what it basically is and you have to learn the patterns and stuff there are a few stages that are platforming but it's not the game strength. The game strength is going to, you see that like old school Disney animation style bosses and it's a very beautiful game. And in true boss rush fashion, it's very hard because kind of like Dark Souls or whatever, you have to learn the patterns and stuff. And it takes the trials and errors to get, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because when you get to a new phase of the fight, all of a sudden you're basically killed by something you didn't know to expect. And then it's like you learn and you just go right back and fight it again. No games piss people off more than that. It appeals to a certain type of individual, but I don't know anyone who's finished Cuphead.
    57:12
    There are people. I just don't personally know any. The game, this seems almost like a theme that looking at American Pinball that they would have picked simply because they love the art and they imagined how beautiful it would be on the display and stuff. I don't know how well it moves units in the pinball community. Yeah, you got Ryan McQuaid that did Sonic's Pinball as a homebrew and they couldn't secure that license so maybe they're like well this is the next thing we could get video game wise right i just yeah i mean i we know it but i worry that a lot of people i actually uh somewhat uh follow somewhat i don't always keep up on it but i caught up on the american pinball thread on pin side and there were a lot of people there that just didn't know what cuphead was which kind of surprised me but i've been in the video game world a long time and if If you're not, you're not going to know Cuphead. I agree. I don't think it's a great title for pinball. Now, it could sell gangbusters. The game could be awesome. I like it because I think that it's beautiful. I love the style. I love all of that. I just don't think the art – we're not in the phase where art is enough to sell the game. Correct. The theme is what sells the game. Or else GTF would have done better. Yeah, GTF sounds great. And it's the same way that Elton John and Franchi worked on both those projects. And, yeah, the art's great. The games do not have an art problem. That is not the issue. And if they use Ryan McQuaid's layout for Spinball, that was an easy shooter. So that does not go with Cuphead at all. Who's rumored to have Sonic if not them?
    58:46
    Maybe next episode. Maybe Craig Bobby mentions it behind the table. Yeah. Check it out. So Cuphead, okay. That's such an American pinball thing to do To tease Masters of the Universe In your expo tour Yeah And then come out with Cuphead Yeah, I Was it Jack Ranieri over there? Like, what was going on?
    59:09
    Watch it come out, Cuphead 2 That's right Return of the Saucer Chicago Gaming Company Oh, I heard great news I heard about the production Pulp Fiction Well What? Hold the phone. No. My phone is a cell phone, and I don't want to hold it right now. Would you let another man massage your woman's feet? Look, so here's what happened, I think. I don't have any confirmation of this, but I think they just don't like dealers. I think they thought, you know what? As if dealers aren't bothered enough by emails of when their damn game's coming, they're going to announce that they rolled one off the line to make all of the back-ordered customers think that they're now in production. so that they would flood their dealers with questions. Oh, I saw one. Saw somebody get one. That kind of thing. That's just my perception because they're not building this game yet. I think they rolled one off the line so that they could meet their estimated Q3 production timeline. But we're in Q4. Well, close enough. Okay.
    60:13
    We still have Cactus Canyon LEs that need fulfilled SE Pluses. But the rumor was they were going to build them both in tandem. I don't know what's going on there. I can also say that I did send an email last week for an update just for my business, and I have yet to get a response. I don't get it. I don't know. No clue.
    60:38
    Which is very frustrating. The rumored upcoming game, I don't know. I don't even, I have no clue. Multimorphic. Jerry's still not a fan of me. He's still not a fan of me. Did you see this open letter on Penn Summit? Yes, yes. I was actually getting sent some quotes from the thread back before the, I guess, the latest announcement stuff. But, wow, that thread went all over the place. Yeah, I found out about it because I was tagged and I was brought up in it somehow, some way.
    61:10
    Why am I synonymous with Multimorphic now? Am I branded to this brand? It's not something I'm asking for. I don't know I understood the desire by some to want to divert from the topic that the thread was about absolutely I don't know the gist of it I don't know all of the details but somebody started a thread on Pennside, it was an open letter talking about their experience of receiving the game working on the problems the numerous problems they had giving their I felt pretty thorough rundown of their experiences thus far with the platform, the company, etc. Was that fair?
    61:55
    Yeah. They were pretty thorough. They were. And normally, let me go ahead and just admit, I'm not a fan of open letters because I think you get things better done privately. But they did include documentation in their imagery that they had been in communication privately with the company for a long time before they had gotten to this point. Yeah. So that was – and then like you do on forums, you get back and forth from people. Hey, I have the same experience. You're exactly right. I'm glad somebody expressed it that way. And then other people saying, go to hell. That's not what happened. You're just trying to bring down the company like Zach Manning. And then back and forth. That's what threads do. It was interesting to me just because it was a hot little thread. And then somebody brought me up saying that I lost distribution of flipping out pinball because of shady, the phrase, like shady business practice, something like that. And that's when I'm like, okay, like dark. Yeah. You know, in some of those threads, people who was actually all this stuff, you know, whatever. I get that daily. That's fine. But then you bring up my business. And if it's something that's not true, that I'm like, well, shit, I can't just, I got to say something. So I just hopped in there and was like, hey, could you kind of explain what you mean by shady business practice? Because this is news to me too. Do it here publicly. I don't care because I didn't do anything wrong. And they said, well, I don't know the details, but I know it's shady. Well, okay. So I said, look, Jerry and I don't maybe see eye to eye sometimes, but even Jerry would tell you that that's not why I lost distribution rights to Multimorphic five years ago when I first got in the industry. it was because I wasn't inventorying games I was new, I didn't have a lot of money to inventory stuff so I didn't want to buy extra P3 games that were going to sit because they weren't selling, this is a time Dennis where it was the, Lexi Lightspeed was out and that was it at Rocks or Barnyard but Cosmic Cart Racing was just coming out so I wasn't established like some of these dealers so I couldn't afford to inventory games And so that was it, I mean, Jerry and I just, he was like, well, why are you a dealer if you're not gonna take him to shows or not inventorying games? And I said, well, I agree there, Jerry, but your other dealers are doing the same, so why am I being treated different? So it just a business disagreement that led to us not it wasn anything shady So I thought that was fine And then Jerry came in and said Oh no this guy was right And I like wait what?
    64:34
    He was right. All right, here we go. Like people just leave me alone. Fuck. So I said, okay, Jerry, please express to everybody publicly in this forum. Then what, what shady business practices I, uh, practiced. And, uh, thankfully he came back and told everybody what such shade I, I won on ethics. I did. And that was, he came to a Atlanta show. Our first show, I think that we'd ever had a booth again within three months of me and Nicole owning the business. We had no clue what we were doing within three months. So we set up at Atlanta show and he came, uh, had an agreement. He would come, we, you know, we'd have the P three out there in the, in the booth and everything. And he said, there were times that I was not in that booth. And he was responsible for selling the product on his own. So that was the shady business. I said, you know what, Jerry, you're right there. Thank God that's out there. So that was the unethical dilemma. So that's what I know about the open letter.
    65:40
    Well, that wasn't the part I found very interesting. No offense to you and your business reputation. I would have preferred not to have even been brought up. I, because I never like worked on one of these and I've always, when people have told me about them, I've known a lot of people have owned the games and they've, they've sung their praises. And, uh, in a way where they, it's, it's, it's always been weird to me because it's like, there aren't any flaws with it. Like it's, it's, it's as the kids would say, super sus. Like, like the, the only complaint I would get out, I remember one person one time I was like, is there really like absolutely nothing you would say you should be done differently about this? And the one thing I got was, well, I wish it was lighter weight. And I was like, wow. Sure. I mean, it's just, it's like, it's just like this. It's just, it's too good to be true. I work too damn hard. That's like, I'm just thinking like Stern and JJP and every, I'm like, everything has some, you know, there's always compromise. I'm just amazed. And so again, I didn't, but I hadn't handled, like I played these games at shows, some I like and some I don't, but I've never like looked under the hood, so to speak. And so it was the discussion about how much was being 3D printed, FDM 3D printed. Now, I'm not a 3D printing expert, but like Orich came in and was explaining the different types. And I actually started looking up types about 3D printing because I've got – like my brother-in-law is big into 3D printing. Like he's interested in that stuff. It's not – I don't do that in a hobbying thing. But I'm just going and people are showing photos of all this stuff and like all these fail points because you're like using hobbyist printers that were designed for production grade high wear areas and stuff. And it's just like.
    67:19
    This is the and again, I don't follow all the multimorphic threads, so I'm like, to me, that was a shock because I I that was the first I'd ever heard of it. And there's got to be more people that were aware and knew that these these aspects weren't doing well. and not that anyone has an obligation to tell it to me because again i wasn't really in the market to buy one of these anyway but that was just really interesting to me because the company's been around so long that they were i i could almost see it like i would uh the way it was described and again i'm not a 3d printing expert was like maybe you'd prototype with that approach but like putting flipper mix and stuffs in with the you know the 3d printer you got on sale at circuit city maybe that's not the strategy that you employ i don't know that they were actually I could see it in like year one, you know, back in the day when 3D printing was just getting off the ground. It's, I mean, but we see 3D printing show up a lot in pinball. So I also kind of was like, okay, I get that as well, though we usually see it for more like decorative things, you know, like mods and stuff. That company pitches the innovation, bringing the innovation that other companies just fail and are unable to do. So that's innovation, is it not?
    68:37
    I mean, I could see the argument. But anyway, that was really interesting because the thread actually had – again, this thread went in all sorts of directions. And that was one of those directions where there was a lot of discussion about that. And I didn't see a lot of feedback, not that I expected official feedback, but I didn't see a lot of feedback that to me was really satisfying in the explanation about why the decision was made. other than I think everyone, again, who knew about 3D printing was like, well, this is a cheap decision. Like if you wanted to do things affordable, this is like the lowest cost way you could do it.
    69:14
    And we know that didn't Spooky early on, they were criticized for doing 3D printing parts. But then you didn't hear anybody. Spooky is the only one that was just getting flamed for that in the past. I'm too ignorant of 3D printing and knowing who did what with what and I remember with America's Most Haunted Spooky, again it was like the toys they just looked like really low effort 3D print jobs on the toys and some of those toys I think could get hit by the ball and would break and stuff like that yeah, poor America's Most Haunted so you wouldn't want a game with this level of hobbyist 3D printing in it?
    69:58
    I guess the answer would be no, based off of what little I've been able to learn since then. I've read about... I don't want to say no to 3D printing, because I did read about 3D printing approaches that do seem to offer robust... Yeah, when you break, you can make your own parts at home. Who wouldn't? Only if you have the designs. Oh, yeah. I think Multimorphic will share those, but I don't think they're readily... Again, from the thread, it sounded like You couldn't just go – well, it didn't sound like you could just go to the website and download them. You have to request them is what it sounded like, which isn't like the worst thing in the world. But I would rather have injected molded, but I'm old-fashioned like that. When do you think we'll get a fully 3D-printed pinball machine? Oh, gosh. Full size. Yeah. Well, the problem is getting people to accept the plastic play field.
    70:49
    Don't they do resin 3D print? You could do, I mean, plastic. No, there's probably a way to 3D print wood that I just, again, I'm just not into that. That's not a hobby of mine. I'm just not into it. We should have your, what was it? You said brother-in-law? Yeah, I think he's got, or at least he's written to me. He's emailed me when there are 3D printers on sale and stuff before and things like that. I know he has one because he got one as a gift a few years ago. 3D printing. 3D imprinting can be great for all sorts of stuff like I think especially like covers and stuff it's a good option for a lot of pinball stuff but like things tied to the flipper mechs and stuff I guess not again based off of what I'm going to I'm assuming are expert I didn't see anyone really I saw some people debating like well you could do this versus that you know everyone have their disagreements but by and large it wasn't seen as a strong approach but and I guess Multimorphic agrees because they issued a letter, I guess, to an email update, I guess is the proper way. That open letter led to an open email. Yeah, I guess they do those regularly to their customers and stuff. But someone had dropped it in the thread, so that's how I was aware of it, where they had noted that they were pausing new product development. So the second Multimorphic Game Kit that they were planning to release in 2023 is not coming out in 2023 because they are going to be focusing on making improvements. Yeah. If that wasn't just a coincidence, they probably had it scheduled to release around the same time anyway. I'm eager to get my hands on Final Resistance more. I want to play that game. I don't want to own it. I don't want to buy it. I don't want to buy the system. Make that clear. And that module came up in that thread about having made, like Scott's design was different. It didn't do something. I don't think he had the reliance on the, what were the other thing, the servos or something came up in the thread. Again, I don't do RC cars and stuff, so I just didn't understand.
    72:50
    Apparently, another high-fail, that is a disposable part. At the end of the day, Multimorphic's been around for quite some time. The P3 platform has been around for quite some time. They have brought innovations to the industry first in a lot of ways. They've brought so much cool stuff that we've not seen before, but I don't think that their sales are strong in the past currently or will be in the future because they are stuck with one platform that at this point, in my own opinion, feels very, very dated, more so than pretty much all the other manufacturer's products that come out. It just feels like an old system.
    73:33
    It looks old. It just feels old. It's just old. That's all. Too old to go in my collection. But these people may be old, but they're beautiful. They're the Screaming Goat Club members of the pinball show, Dennis. Yay.
    73:48
    Thank you for the support. How about thank you to the Bobcat? Yeah. Rodney. Rodney, we're in a hell of a re-ed expo. Come on. Oh, shoot that fucker. What about Jablonski?
    74:00
    Bumblebee tuna, baby. I want Jablonski. I know you're busy, man. You need to come hang out with us on the monthly hangout sessions, the pinball show. Rob did.
    74:12
    The kineticist himself with his media mixer. Yes, Colin. You're a baby daddy, Colin. That was so creepy with what you were talking about with that baby. I want the baby. That's so cute, the baby. I've tried talking to Colin to get the baby. She wants one, but no. I think our time has come and gone. We're looking forward to grandbabies in like 10 years. Maybe. Let's see. Yeah, maybe.
    74:43
    Crazy. The Falcon. Ha-ha. Frankie. Frank's on a roll. You should see his collection. Holy moly. Mm-hmm.
    74:53
    The Shaker Motor. Dave. Oh, his collection's growing, too. Congrats on that recent game that's shipping this week. the fox what does the fox say he says bye bye bye joe thank you for the love oh and then newcomer to our hangout this month charlie charlie yeah charlie made it he came and hung out and we always have the likes of the dude the dude sir william yeah well you know that's just like uh your opinion, man. He came, hung out. I think the dude's got an Elton on the way. So we were discussing that, and he was like, well, I'm looking forward to it. So he's got a couple weeks, unless he went CE. He might have went CE. He's got a couple months. But the dude, thank you for all your dudeness. And for those of you who want to join the Screaming Goat Club, come with it. All you got to do is go to the Patreon Club membership page, patreon.com slash the pinball show. So $10 membership, sign up, get access to our private Discord channel. It's private-ish. There's a couple of shitheads in there that share everything. But other than that, it's fun. We've got the Nordman level, $25. Get some swag, get some perks. The Hangout, then you get access to Hangout. Get the Hangout. You get to pick a topic. I think we're airing our topic and the show. Oh, yeah, the paywall polo for all of those Screaming Goat Club members. as well as appearing on the show and a private channel with just Dennis and I. Those people are so informed. They just come to us and say, you know, what's the truth behind this? Is this real? What's this? And we feed them potatoes, don't we? Yes. Nom. That look like Michael J. Fox. All right. Last time, I flooded with emails. People saying, dude, you can't get rid of it. You can't put it behind the paywall. It's bigger than you, Zach. It's bigger than the pinball show. It has now surpassed flipping out pinball straight down the middle and any rubber band episode you may or may not do in the future. No one has said any of that. It is simply the industry-consuming black hole that is. Pinball Market Trends! My voice is back! Woo-hoo! The Bobcat Techno World!
    77:16
    Turning up this week, did Dan's labyrinth barrels of fun! Fucking fun! you haven't fucking fun yet labyrinth my name is so bad but everything else is so good oh yes you've got all kinds of fun in the labyrinth the damn thing is still selling it's outselling every other manufactured game for us right now people can't get enough of Ludo Scare you got Hoggle pissing in a pond you got fairies that fight you You've got the codpiece, the beauty that is the bulge of David Bowie. Hell, yes. That's a battle of the bulge that I'd want to compete in.
    78:00
    I wonder if, I don't know why I thought of Ryan C. when I thought of David Bowie's bulge. Is Ryan C. still out there anywhere? Right now, I've got hands over my eyes like a visor. Ryan, are you out there anywhere? We should have Ryan on. Is Ryan C. still a thing? I don't know. I mean, he gets referenced on Final Round from time to time. I don't know why. Ryan, I'm sorry. I don't know why I thought the bulge.
    78:28
    Also training up this week is Elvira's Blood Red Kiss. Now I'm really thinking of Ryan C. But, yeah, Elvira's Blood Red Kiss, which is a no-no for me to ever doubt Stern Pinball. I was like, we really need one of these again, guys. We just said, all right, I'll sell it. And sell it I have. Everybody's wanting the Elvira's Blood Red Kiss Edition. They're shipping now. So when they announce something, they ship it to you. And it's sexy and it's beautiful. Did you like the black and white edition of this? I thought it might be the best looking. It's my favorite. Yeah, it's my favorite design of it. With glitter. It makes sense. Yeah, it really works well. Damn. You know what? I just decided right now, as I was saying this, it's pinball market trend. I think I'm going to open one of those. I really, maybe. No, you said last time Nicole would be mad, so don't do it. I'm going to do it. It's beginning to look a lot like blood. Yes. I think I'm going to open up an Elvira. Stay tuned. The video is coming soon. All's training up this week. I don't have to open this because it's already in my collection. It's Stranger Things. Bullshit.
    79:37
    Bullshit. Stranger Things. Oh, my God. We sold out of our premium allotment. I was sad. Maybe we'll get some extras. I don't know. But who would have thought, like three years after, they could still sell hundreds upon hundreds of Stranger Things? What is the world coming to?
    79:55
    You've got Venom sitting and Stranger Things just blowing up a lot. Where's my UV kit? I'm going to trim that shit down because I can't wait for that. Stranger Things is a certified hit. I'm not going to say I said it from the beginning because I'm just a shill. So bye-bye-bye, Stranger Things. I think pros, yeah, we'll see some pros later this week or the following week. I'm surprised that pros sold. I thought only premiums would sell. I was wrong. All right. That's all percolating. But what's coming down is the market. Trading down is the market. Yes, finally you admit the truth. It just is what it is. I'm just the conduit of communication that the mother market, she describes to me. It's like Mother Earth, but mother pinball market. But more money, yeah. Yeah, she's snorting a cup. Absolutely.
    80:51
    Look, trending down is the pinball market. It'll warm back up in a bit. A couple weeks, right? We're going to have that holiday season. Everybody's going to want to buy, buy, buy. They're going to purchase stuff. Because you're actually good people and you purchase actual good gifts like pinball machines. and accessories for your friends and loved ones. Don't be a Grinch. Here's some new rubbers for your L5. Oh, come on. Buy a topper. A couple weeks from now to the end of December, it's going to be hot, hot, hot, right? We're going to have a nice, warm sales because of that. And sure, a cold front's going to move in from January to February. I'm Eric Stoning this shit. Yeah, a cold front's coming in January, February. But fear not. Stern Pinball, Dennis, they've equipped their next game with thermal protection. You heard it here first. The technology is not new, but it's very effective at heating up a very frigid marketplace in a Thanos snap. They simply call this proprietary innovation Keith fucking Elwynn. And he's going to come blazing into the end of the year like a fiery phoenix goat, creepy demon-eyed little bastard, and hornier than ever. Here comes Keith Elwynn. Jaws. That sounded too sharp. rumored shark jaws i don't care what you've heard about it if it's true uh they're gonna have like a little orb around them and their nipples aren't gonna be cold they're gonna be soft and they're going to be supple because the fiery phoenix goat of keith elwynn is going to protect us all from the blizzard that is the market 2023 into 2024 coming soon And as always, I'm just here to report facts. People, don't kill me. Don't throw arrows. Don't be a Jerry, because numbers don't lie. And guess what, people? Neither will I on Pinball Market Trends.
    82:47
    Dennis, where can people catch you? Again, always email me at collectorgamerspodcast at gmail.com. You really liked that Pinball Market Trends, didn't you? Yeah, it was. I like it. We're going to talk about how bad it is, and then we'll just build it all up anyway. Whatever. I feel like I could go run a race right now. I feel like I lift up a pinball machine. You can email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. Follow, like, and subscribe to us. Facebook's the TikTok's. Hey, Discord, you want to hop on our Discord? All you got to do is go to patreon.com slash pinball show. Become a member. It's called support. Don't just listen with your ears. Listen with your wallet today.
    83:27
    Buy, buy, buy. Support, support, support. Follow, like, and subscribe to Flippin' Out Pinball The sponsor of this show You really need to do that Facebook, Instagrams, all of that When I buy my pinballs And I buy from Flippin' Out From Topper, Sharp, and Streamy I've got it figured out Flippin' Out When I take a pinball I think Flippin' Out When I buy, buy, buy I buy from Flippin' Out Bye, bye, bye. Product showcase this week is the Elvira Blood Red Kiss Edition. We have two left? I think two left and then they're gone. What are you going to do? They're finished. Finito. Gone. Bye, bye, bye. We have all kinds of other games. Go to our Facebook page right now for the most up-to-date used and new list of games and accessories that we have. And you can check out on the website for the new games as well. But all you got to do is go on there, check out the list. We ship anywhere in the country too. So shipping your used GTF or your used Halloween, leave it to us. We're the professionals. It's fine. It's easy. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than you're going to get anywhere else. It's flipping out pinball. And if Stern continues the way they are, we'll be having a clearance sale and everything. TPN last week. There was a lot of stuff last week, Dennis. Yeah, there was. But we had the Triple Chain podcast. And then we had Final Round as well. Those were the two Final Round. And then special secret guests on final round. Yeah. Dan Rosenstein was too plum drunk at Expo. He, I think he had a couple of drinks. Didn't he message our TPN discord? I think he messaged in like the Cincinnati thread that he, congratulations. He won the best podcast at Expo or something. I'm like, Dan drunk.
    85:15
    TPN this week. Cool shit. How about that? Dennis, leave these people with little Christmas nuggets. Yeah. Okay. Your Christmas nugget will be, what's tater's precious? Great scots. And always practice safe pinball. In this holiday season, don't be afraid to 3D print Dennis and I some pinball gifts. The bigger the better, baby. We will share them on our social media. It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas. Howdy, Harrison. This episode sure sounds like flowers. But the prettiest sight to see is the holly that will be on your own. Front door.