Happy Sunday, pinfolk, or whatever day you're listening. This is NYC Pin Pod, in which a panel talks location pinball in New York City and nearby surrounding areas. My name is Benjamin Furiga. My initials are BCF. And boy, it was fun to play on Monday night again. My name is Eric Sweetland. My initials are HIP, and I'm a pinball tournament director in New York City. Hey, y'all. My name is Madeline Lynn. My pronouns are she, her, hers. My initials are MXL, and I'm looking forward to the $420 in bonus bets I'm getting from FanDuel, our sponsor this week. This show's not sponsored by FanDuel. Fantastic. On this week's pod, we'll run down local competition results in Ball 1. In Ball 2, we'll review Sunshine Laundromat as a pinball venue. And in Ball 3, we'll talk about gambling and pinball and some of the crossovers. Let's get started. Don't you hate when your favorite podcasts start with a pre-roll ad? This episode of the New York City Pin Pod is brought to you by FanDuel. Make every moment more. Whether you're maximizing your mode and multiball combo or picking the perfect parlay, FanDuel Sportsbook is the app for you. Download on both the App Store or Google Play, use promo code EXTRABALL, and get $69 in bonus bets. Must be 21 or older to play. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. FanDuel. Make every moment more. FanDuel Sportsbook, the official sponsor of the New York City Pin Pod. This show is not sponsored by FanDuel. Or anyone. But the good news is that we have some fun content coming that has some kind of contest. There's not any gambling at all. But if you're familiar at all, which how could you not be in the United States with the NCAA tournament? We have the NYC PPAA tournament. That's the NYC Pin Pod Awesomeness Archive. 16 pinball machines each in four eras dmd flat screen electromechanical solid state will be named on march 16th when we release nyc pin pod you can fill out your predictions of what we will then whittle down if you predict correctly the most games you will win an awesome prize and be inducted into the NYC PPAA, along with the pinball game that wins the tournament, which we will name the greatest pinball game of all time, at least for right now. Let's talk about competitive pinball results from New York City over the past week. On Sunday, February 23rd, 24 players showed up for the Bells NYC Winter Max Match Play at pinahan gardens 16 rounds of max match play cut to a top eight finals a group elimination bracket with three games per round with pinberg scoring pinberg scoring is 3-2-1-0 in the end lindsey rhodes was the winner on the day followed by miriam nadler in second lauren dackness in third and kate martin in fourth also on sunday stern army's february rob wong invitational took place at rullos under the direction of jess warren with shrimp and grits made by bart 18 players no shrimp benjamin if you don't be vain shrimp you're also eating shit also a chicken liver pate. 18 players came out to Rolos. We played five rounds of match play with IFPA scoring and cut to a top four finals. In the end, Nint Hu took home the day, followed by Matthew Carlson, John Martin, and AJ Gould. So proud of those 18 players coming out. Such strength. On Monday, February 25th, 5th pinball NYC was back in the left flipper division. We colliders went to Gebhard's beer culture on the Upper West Side. We got our butts handed to us by a 4 to 12 margin. Unfortunately, Madeline was not able to join us. No, I had a meeting. We played hard. We were super cute. And we had a lot of fun. And I also want to, as a general podcast note, thank Glenn Gilyar, who handed me some Harvest merch that you may hear something about, oh, I don't know, winning in a contest or something like that in the near future. Thanks to Glenn for that while we were there. And congrats to the Lion Persons. May they have a wonderful season, as I hope we will as well. What happened at the Wallace, Eric? We had a really great night hosting Intermission Dolores. NYCFSA wins 9-7. It was also the bringing home the trophy night from our league championship last season. Finally, we were all, almost everyone, able to get together, take some pictures with the trophy, and we got to hang it up on the wall at the Wallace. Super cool. The Aristocrats hosted Balls of Steel at Rulo's and similarly had a 9-7 win at home. The Mutants hosted the Deluxe Horses at Solid State and similarly had a 9-7 win at home. The Pin Pals went to McKenna's Pub and similarly the two for oneers had a nine to seven win at home pinball union hosted special when lit at barcade brooklyn and the home team took a 10 to 6 win there so they got a little bit of juice in the standings parliament from owl farm went from park slope to williamsburg to visit the lesser players at their new home, Jack Bar, and Parliament picked up an 11-5 away win. On Tuesday, February 25th, Pinball NYC's right flipper, which unfortunately it seems was unable to find a 14th team, the Trolls had a bye. The Ball Drainers went to Milo's yard to visit Neptune's Treasure. Neptune's Treasure had a home loss in week one, just as they did last season. No Quarters for Laundry went to Buttermilk Bar to visit Danger Danger, and No Quarters picked up an away win, 9-7. That's two away wins, 9-7. The Replace went to Jack Bar to visit the Schlubs, and the schlubs picked up the home win of nine to seven score harlem globe flippers hosted at at the wallace i think a lot of the same team members as nyc fsa right yeah rest in pinball came a knocking and the home team took away a 10 to 6 victory the butterballers went to visit the pin babes had a nice match as i recall going into the final rounds the butterballers had eight points we needed one of the two games to go in myself and tom played star trek and uh we're not able to win which star trek is it birdies stern star trek uh-huh uh by you know steve ritchie based on the whatever those movies right with chris pine but luckily our other pairing pulled it out and i wish i had the the sheet because i can't remember it strapple squad came down presumably on the g train because it's it's actually kind of slick to get from green point to just this part of Park Slope to visit Skylark and the Pinister Six. And the home team, Pinister Six, picks up an 11-5 win. On Thursday, February 27th, No Bro Presents Thursday Night Strikes was convened, as it is every week. Greg Fertel took home the trophy or whatever exactly the prize is and oh by the way Till ran the tournament for the night uh there's a there's a rotating group of tournament directors who will run it night tonight the note in match play very clearly says strikes by Till so we know Till was running it Greg Fertel came out on top Alex Weisenberger came in second Travis Rosenberg third and Zach Till fourth. Also on Thursday the fourth meeting of South Slope Pinball League was convened at Buttermilk under the direction of Kate Martin. 18 players came out. We played five rounds of match play. In the end there was a four-way tie at the top of the standings. 27 points each to Zen Zokniak, Monica Weidekamp, Matthew Grady and myself. Four-way bow. Nice job, Eric. Thank you. After four of six, it looks to me like the top seed so far is Rob Wong. Eric, you are the second seed for the moment, at least. I'm liking that thought. Matthew Carlson, third. Zen, fourth. Zen Zokniak, that is. Matthew Grady, fifth. Taylor Connolly, sixth. Kate Martin, seventh. and Billy Vazine eighth. Billy has only three meetings under his belt so far, so, you know, look for him to move up by 20-ish points. That's going to put him... Oh, look at... Matt Grady at 78 has only three meetings. That guy is going to move up. Look for them to move up. Steve and Christopher I got with three meetings just under the cut line with 61 points. Silver ball, show me the future. What upcoming tournaments do we have in 2025? On Monday, March 3rd in the Left Flipper, we've got the New York City Flipper Sports Association versus the Balls of Steel at Midway, Parliament versus Intermission Dolores at the Monroe, the Aristocrats versus Special Unlit at Ruloz, Pinball Union versus the Two for One at McKenna's Pub, the Pin Pals versus the Leicester Players at Jack Bar, the Mutants versus the Colliders at Buttermilk Bar, and the Lion Persons versus the Deluxe Horses at Barcade Brooklyn. on Tuesday March 4 we've got Trolls vs. No Quarters for Laundry at Solid State, Scrapple Squad has their bye week, not the hello week playing against themselves Danger Danger vs. Butterballers at Buttermilk Bar, the Pin Babes vs. Harlem Globe Flippers at At The Wallace Wrestling Pinball R.I.P. vs. The Pinister Six at Skylark, the Schlubs vs. Ball Drainers at Jack Bar, and Neptune's Treasure vs. The Replays at Rulo's I'm going to jump in and just briefly say that on Wednesday March 5th I hope that the NYC Match Play Pinball League, which used to be called the Sunshine Wednesday Night League, sort of, in a way. It will be a slightly different format. It will be whopper-optimized, whoptimized. But I am hopeful that on Wednesday night, it will convene at a new location operated by Peter Rose of Sunshine Laundromat. It's impossible for me to promise that it will happen because the location is not yet, to the best of my knowledge, while we are recording this, open to the public. hopefully the venue will be open in time for the league to start on Wednesday. It is possible that it will. It is possible that it won't. Thursday, March 6, we have Thursday Night Strikes at Jack Bar, 143 Havenmeyer Street in Brooklyn, New York, 11211. There's no pre-registration and no player caps, so just stroll on down and test your mettle against Brooklyn's finest pinball players. We also have the South Slope Pinball League, one number five at Buttermilk. Pinball is at 8 o'clock with two chances left to qualify. Sunday, March 8 at 1pm No Bro with Sunday Slaptism 3.9 also at Jack Bar. Format subject to change and please check back closer to the tournament date organized by Sam Hall At 2pm we have the monthly Jersey City Open at Barcade Jersey City 163 Newark Avenue in Jersey City New Jersey hosted by the Lion Persons 3 Strike Lineant Rules Tournament. No qualifiers no finals. Registrations open $11 buy-in with a dollar going to IPA, top four players win cash, 44-player cap. On Saturday, February 22nd, user LockedOn went by Bar Great Harry and said of their monster bash, Auto launch is wonky. Balls won't always launch, resulting in three to four ball pileups in the shooter lane. Also seems to be kicking out balls when it shouldn't. User LockedOn also went by Boat Bar and let us know that both Guardians of the Galaxy and the Addams Family are out of order. walked down Smith Street right there. That's what happened for that person. User Pin Ash went to Sunshine Laundromat and played bad cats. They said, left flipper doesn't bounce. We'll deaden the ball and send it straight down the drain. User Blue Kaufman was also at Sunshine and let us know that Cyclone has a Ferris wheel and a spook house. On Sunday, February 23rd, A Getaway High Speed 2 showed up at Hallyards in Brooklyn. On Monday the 24th, Mandalorian left at the Wallace and a Deadpool was put in its place. User JNS went by Sunshine Laundromat and put in a couple of comments F Tomcat it up front by the windows so you can play it before the bar opens Leaning hard right makes Yagov a lot safer but any ball moving towards the right out lane is danger, danger. No bill acceptor, $1 one play. And for the Shadow, it's up front by the windows, so you can play before the bar opens. Played great. $1 one play. Slick, updated, trans light. Age is still real. Protect yourself. on Tuesday the 25th user JNS played the Jaws of Bar Great Hair he said played fine plunged clean shark went down when I hit it so come crush some cans with Quint also on Tuesday a new location showed up on the pinball map with the addition of Star Trek Next Gen, Tales of the Arabian Nights and Attack from Mars at Scrapple Land in Brooklyn on Thursday the 27th Deadpool was removed from Solid State. It was actually on Monday, but it was noted on Thursday. In his place, a Ghostbusters showed up. And on Friday the 28th, user SuperCoven37 played the Iron Maiden at Buttermilk and said, please fix the sticky right flipper. Let's talk about Sunshine Laundromat. We heard a couple of things in the update just now about Sunshine. I am gonna wax idiotic here for a second about sunshine. I'll give you the overview because these things are important. Sunshine is in Greenpoint. It's at 860 Manhattan Avenue. It's a block and change south of Greenpoint Avenue G train stop. If you get off the, you know, out of the train at the right place, you don't have to cross any streets or do anything other than just walk past a church, an electronic store and a shoe store, I think maybe a bank. And then you're there. You're at Sunshine. It is a great location. It is a great pinball bar. As our updater pointed out, it is open Monday through Friday at 5 p.m. It is not open before that for the speakeasy bit in the back, but there are the two games up front that are available to you in the 7 or 8 a.m. hour, depending on the day of the week. so look if if what you need is 8 a.m pinball this is one of the very few qualified public locations for that nice very few places you can do that this venue was the most relevant venue to the ball one segment when i did this podcast alone pre-pandemic by a mile it had at the time something like 30 games usually active in it because it had games in a back area that is now outdoors it had previously been an enclosed by steel and glass sort of solarium area but it is now unencumbered by barriers from the Carl Weathers which is also to say there are not pinball machines there anymore there were before and that's how they could have that many games but now it has just what used to be the front room of the speakeasy and by the way i keep saying the speakeasy you walk into the bar at the back of this place by opening a double stack dryer door like that's it's such a cool thing i'm i'm positive everybody in new york city knows this but it's also such a cool thing and also your dog walks through the bottom door of the double stack dryer door. It is too cool, this place. It was the most relevant competition venue before the pandemic in large part because of the number of machines, but also because they were always in great shape. They always played great, and they were tight. They were difficult, but they were a level playing field, and good players could rise above the difficult conditions as happens in tournament play. It used to have the weekly individual competition event, the thing in the city that every week all the great players wanted to be there on Wednesday nights for the Sunshine Wednesday Night League. And I'm hopeful, as I said in ball one, that roughly its replacement will be active this coming Wednesday at what was it called, Eric? Scrapples what? Scrapple Land. Scrapple Lamp, named after Peter's dog. Big chocolate lab. Also the namesake of Scrapple's squad, the Tuesday night pinball NYC team, the right flipper team. They have so many games there. I talked about 30 games just now. Madeline, can you talk about the last time that you were at Sunshine? Oh, man, I have a special place in my own heart for Sunshine Laundromat because that was where my first tournament finals was ever. The first tournament I ever played in was with some of the colliders for the Horses Pin Golf back in, I believe, spring of 22 or 23. I don't even remember at this point. And we went from Greenpoint Brewery to a private location to Tempkins to Sunshine. And this was a 12-hour tournament. I remember the double-stacked doors. I remember the eclectic vending machine. There was some of Zoltar in the back. And I'm just kind of sitting on a chair, just a negative social battery. And there were only a few machines there that evening. And one of them wasn't even working. And I'm really pleased to hear that there's been an up and there's been a down. And now we're on the up and up again. You mentioned the eclectic, I think you said, vending machine. This place is kind of like Peter's Art Installation. but it's also a space for a community. And I want to make it perfectly clear that I have never tried to go to the CVS across the street to buy Plan B. I have never tried to go to the vending machine at Sunshine to buy Plan B, but I am told that the vending machine at Sunshine sells Plan B for significantly less than the CVS right across the street. So that seems to me like it is a community service. It is a community-minded place and organization. The reason I suggested the venue today, and Madeline, you've just kind of, maybe without knowing it, tied into it, the Greenpoint Brewery or Brewing Company is the new location for the Scrapple Joint. And I don't want to say I feared it. It's still true. I feared it. I'll admit it, I guess, that opening this venue might have most of the inventory from Sunshine Laundromat transferred to that venue. And I'm pleased to say that when I visited on Thursday, there were 15 games in the back. And the two games that Eric pointed out in the update were up front, and you can play them before the bar opens. 15 games in the back is a lot. Yes. And there were still that many there when presumably when rumors tell us that this other place may be open this coming week. There were still a lot of games and what I've been thinking of as the old sunshine while this transition has been happening. And I'm pleased to say that maybe I have in my head been misinterpreting or fearing the worst case and that maybe this will continue to be what it is. it has 15 games and it used to have 30 and it used to be the center of New York city's pinball universe. I expect Eric that you and I met at sunshine laundromat. Does that seem right to you? Almost certainly. Yeah. I met almost everyone I know in the community at sunshine laundromat, who's not like a collider or just someone I had one conversation with on a Monday night match, you know, cause you, you can't catch up with everyone on the other team, but sometimes you just run into someone and have a conversation or whatever i met everyone either there or at modern pinball the vending machine is one thing but i say it's peter's art installation it almost reminds me of like if the prada store outside of marfa was actually a prada store and not just an art installation he has this light fixture in the back that is a giant like metal oval that just has wild light bulbs coming off the side of it and it's a thing of beauty there are tables the the the only tables in the bar the tops of them are mosaics of scrapple and i believe scrapple's fallen compatriot choco monster uh may he rest in power you know there are mosaics of these dogs on the tops of the tables in this pinball bar that is a speakeasy in the back of brooklyn if that's not somebody's art installation i don't know what would be my goodness the the lineup it does have some of peter's older machines in it right now presumably because we might have this Scrapple-thon. What's the name of it? Scrapple Land. Scrapple Land, in the back. I'm doing it in alphabetical order because I got it from Pinball Map. I was there just last night, and this is accurate. And all of these machines are working, except for maybe the one that I told you I'm going to tell you that I broke. The Addams Family is in the back. Bad Cats is in the back meow meow meow and also see the sound effect that my cat created here Batman 66, Super Ellie Cyclone Deadpool Ellie Godzilla 70th Anniversary the black and white one the Jaws Ellie so it's got the toy that like the shark I think eats your ball I don't even know what the toy does It very much does not eat your ball to the consternation of many internet commenters. Rumble! It can if you mess up like I have and hit the shark as the shark is retracting, and then you just don't know what to do after that. Well, the ball search probably solves that problem. You don't need Robert Shaw for that one. Jurassic Park LE. Metallica Remastered Ellie No Good Gophers Pulp Fiction SE Eric, remind me, is Special Edition? Is that what the S is? Yeah, I think so I mean, this being Chicago Gaming Chicago Gaming I don't know what they call their classification Spider-Man Vault Edition which also has an alternate comic art back class, I believe or uh trans light rather stranger things le which i did i looked at it after we talked about it at jack bar and the projector and everything that has to be perfect for it to work and my goodness the projection on it looked stellar in that location in sunshine that one central lighting thing is not a coincidence it also means there's not a lot of glare on the top of the glass of pinball machines in the place. It's not a coincidence. I'm here to tell you. Super Mario Brothers Mushroom World, which I got four tickets from, and the uncanny X-Men Ellie. Eric, you've been there more recently than Madeline when there were only four games. I obviously was there just last night. Do you have any thoughts on that lineup or how it has changed since the last time you were there? Yeah, I've visited a few times in the recent past, In November, Eric Rubinsky and I had an APAB event one day. And I also stopped by in December. There was a Brooklyn Trans Pinball Night. This lineup's pretty good. The layout, I like how it is now. Like, you know, looking back at old Sunshine, which felt extremely cramped. having seen it over the various stages post-pandemic from you know completely closed to open with four machines for a long time you know working up to what it is now um but having the back be an open patio instead of more machines maybe that helps make it feel less claustrophobic. Also, the Saturday in December coincided with a big kid's birthday party. Oh, yeah. And they were rocking. Other nights, there's lots of people coming in and playing the board games that they have there or other sorts of scheduled activities. At one point, I don't remember where in the stretch of it all was, there was a comedy night that was happening on the back patio part. And it's neat to see all these different audiences discovering it. I don't know, before the pandemic, it felt pretty pinball-centric. Oh yeah. There was always a pile of board games back in the corner. I will never forget having seen the Bob Ross Art of Chill board game sitting there during a pinball night and just being like, I need that board game. I must have that. I still haven't bought it, but I will. I like to take out the little plastic thing with the gator that snaps your finger. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Like hungry, hungry hippo-ish sort of snapping thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I like that, you know, Eric, you point out the kids thing. Madeline, we have often talked about how it's kind of nice to have a place that there can be like, you know, you can take your kids to play pinball and it doesn't just have to be dark bars at 12 o'clock at night. they have redemption games now they have tickets i got tickets by playing super mario mushroom world i got four tickets you know and i mean i don't think they have i don't think you can get a you know an air gun there the way that i could in the dangerous 80s and 90s but uh you i think some cute little toys that you can exchange your tickets for yeah right exactly there there you know some some little things that if you brought your kids there and they were awesome at skee that they could walk out of there with everything that sitting there probably If you gave them $10 and said, go play skee-ball and they were awesome at it, they could probably walk out of there with something out of every one of those bins that they've got there. If they were terrible at it, they could at least walk out of there with a thing or two. I visited just as I've said last night, and I'm pleased to say that my walk up game, I walked in, I talked to Dan, Danny, the bartender, DJM are his initials around town. I GC bad cats immediately. 36 or 38 million points. That said, I did it because I got four extra balls. and one of the things that is true about this venue is that when I say extra ball it might make people twitch about Sunshine because you don't get a free game typically at Sunshine you get an extra ball and that's part of why I got some extra balls is that I would get increasing scores on this older game that has some increasing score things I think but also I just kept hitting the wheel award I got four extra balls. So that's why I GC'd it when I walked up. I played a few very bad games of Batman 66. I loved them. I had so much fun. I was terrible. I played one bad game of Super Mario Mushroom World and left my four tickets on the bar, hoping that some child would walk up at some point and need them for something and Dan would give them to them. Or whoever's tending bar that day. I found a crazy secret ball lock on cyclone which is to say that I broke the motherfucker I hit the left ramp which I believe is the cyclone ramp and not the comet ramp I think the comet ramp is the far up right ramp and there must have been a piece of plastic on it because it went through and there is a point that it transfers from one plastic form to another plastic form and when I left there last night the ball was suspended between the two as if it was magnetized in the hole. I think I just hit a clear plastic thing that was holding it in place, of course, but I broke it. I broke the motherfucker good. I also would have got the grand champion on it if it didn't have to be turned the fuck off at that moment. And then I played it bad in a decent game of Metallica Remastered. The way that the games play is what I love about Sunshine. and I'm sure I'm going to love it about Scrapple House damn it but it felt like seeing an old friend touching those games, I hadn't been there very much recently and it just like I can throw the games around in Park Slope I can slide save like a motherfucker in Park Slope and I can't do that there but as soon as I touched the game As soon as I went too far on my first ball of bad cats, I reminded myself where I was and what I needed to do. They play great. They're awesome. Always. One of the coolest design features of the place is that when you go to the bathroom, there is a pinball flipper that you can use to flush the toilet if you are in the speakeasy bathroom in the back. There's also a bathroom and a laundromat up front that does not have that luxury. But you can pull down a pinball flipper to flush the toilet there. That's pretty cool, I think. You got to drain to drain. Yeah. Very nice. Side note, I do like how the doors, they remind me of Omega Mart in Las Vegas. That was the museum attraction that I could not name last time. Omega Mart, Meow Wolf, who reminded me of the St. Louis City Museum, but in a more neon sense. Justin Favella. Benjamin, I have been itching to bring up Ball 3. Eric, I've gotten this just trembling in my hand, this need for degeneracy. And I have talked about it so much that it has now become mainstream in my daily life. I'm joking, of course. But this week's Ball 3 is about sports gambling and its potential relation to pinball. We've discussed many times over the past few episodes about ways that pinball is adjacent to or could break into the mainstream. Previously, when we had Alex Kelly as a guest, we discussed pinball's adjacency to esports and a few ways that pinball could make some changes to either fighting games or RTS, real-time strategy video games. I had a slightly less, how we say, wholesome or constructive idea, maybe some originalism, if you will, in which case we go back to our roots of pinball as a form of gambling. Many of us know the famous picture of Mayor LaGuardia smashing pinball machines with a sledgehammer because at the time they were pretty darn random, similar to Bagatelle or Pachinko. Games of chance more outright than games of skill. I want to also just point out, you're absolutely right that they were kind of random at the time, but it is also true that this was an early version of broken windows policing. You can blame a much later mayor of New York and Bill Bratton, his police commissioner, for that exact notion. But this was the same thing as catching Al Capone for tax evasion. This was a way to hit the people who were laundering money through these things where they hurt. Mm-hmm. Similar to how the less scrupulous moral companies have found ways to increase their footholds, if you will, in the minds of young children, whether through technology or iGaming or loot boxes of the 2010s, online gambling has actually become a serious problem ever since its relaxed regulations in 2018. I believe 49 states have pretty freely allowed now sports gambling. And let me tell you, some of my teacher friends nowadays, they are telling high school students to get off the fan duel. I make a lot of ironic jokes about it, but it actually quite bothers me. We have young people who, in the 2010s, were gambling for Counter-Strike skins, are now just literally gambling. We've removed that extra layer of gaming where it's like video gaming. And now you have a child who is opening FanDuel during third period science to do some parlay bet. And that actually quite bothers me, right? It's not Joe Camel anymore. We got vaping where the elf bars and everything are real colorful. We had all the fancy animation loot boxes, and now we've got literal sports betting. All that to say, you know what would be really fun? Adding pinball to sports betting. There was a time when that was true. Tell me more, Eric. I don't know. I don't remember the exact timeline, but it was in the late teens. I suspect maybe Benjamin can jump in with some of this. World Championships 2017-2018 probably is my guess. Yeah, around there. In Denmark, I think, in Copenhagen. I think it was the one that was in Copenhagen. There you go. Yeah. I don't remember how it got off the ground, but there was a moment you could bet on various pinball players to win the IFPA World or the PAPA Championship. Citizens of New York City were names that you could bet on. Greg Pavarelli, the driving force behind the former Sunshine Pinball League and what may very well be the NYC Match Play Pinball League this coming Wednesday, hopefully will be. Greg was someone that I could have gone to an offshore betting website and bet on him to win the IFPA championship. There were odds set that I was, you know, there were actual, there was legitimately a vehicle for this. And that was before New York State had sports betting. it was it would have been offshore yeah this happening then specifically brought about a section of the ifpa rules that i think you want to tell us about benjamin all right so in the ifpa rules as published on the ifpa website you could go download this and check me uh in case i in case it's been updated but uh the official rule this is from the official rule set version 2024.02.23, which is to say one year and five days ago, section three on player conduct and subsection seven is entitled wagering or gambling. As somebody who reads a lot of contracts, I'm sure that everyone would like to point out that the headings are provided only for your convenience. Players are strictly prohibited from placing, soliciting, or facilitating any bet, whether directly or indirectly, through a third party on any IFPA-sanctioned tournament in which they are a participant. This rule extends to the tournament directors, scorekeepers, and volunteers of that event. This includes betting on game outcome, statistics, score, performance of any individual participant or any other kind of proposition bet, I said it in the italics because it's in quotes here, on which wagering is offered. The penalty for such offenses will be a one-year suspension of that person from the IFBA World Pinball Player Rankings, whopper system, forfeiting their right to any IFPA-related perks during the time of suppression. In addition, the IFPA grants full authority to the organizers of the IFPA-sanctioned tournament in question to levy any additional penalties as appropriate to the offending person at their discretion as a baseball fan i can't help but think of pete rose pete rose was banned for life and that's actually official he died now so it's he has that he was actually banned for life from pinball we might he might end up being posthumously put in the in the hall of fame for you say he's I believe that he served his sentence. I believe that the sentence that was given to him was fairly given in good faith by someone who did not foresee that. But 15 years later, when I was watching Brewers games, I would see commercials for Pottawatomie Bingo Casino. Oh, it which which really. makes it questionable as to whether or not it was acceptable to ban someone for life for something that... If you bet on baseball as a baseball player, that's it. You're banned for life. Still. But when the game is taking the money, that really complicates it. And there's not a direct corollary here by any means. The IFPA is not making any money for doing what they're doing. They are wonderful people who want all of us to be able to do this for fun and they organize things so that we can. There's zero ability for them to profit off betting sites, I imagine. But it's also true that I'm going to just throw a flag on this and say if I said to someone in the middle of an IFPA tournament you want to add a dollar game to this? That I should then be banned from all IFPA tournaments for a year. Because I did that on Thursday night at Buttermilk. That seems draconian. Are we also putting into prize pots? Do me a favor and talk about the thing that y'all did with Barcade. I wasn't aware of it any time before y'all did it with the Barcade Brooklyn Pinball League. But talk about the added money pot situation. Yeah, we finally came around to a good compromise position, I think, for something I've been thinking about for a long time, which is the entry fee costs of tournaments. The dollar to the IFPA, I've got no problem with that. They're contentious in its age, but I think we've all grown to accept it. And then the rest going into a price bond, and that being split up amongst the winner and the next few people, maybe. and it's a small cost we all pay at the beginning of all the tournaments. It's usually not much. It's not a miss for this hobby, but it's more accessible. Do you ever, at a small local tournament at least, do you ever pay more than three times the coin drop that you would drop throughout the course of the tournament? I think not three times. Sometimes twice as much. Sometimes I'll be asked to pay $10 for a five-round tournament that I would drop five bucks in coin. But still, if you're asked to pay twice as much just to be there, just to play pinball today, and now you're still paying to play pinball, that's a real significant chunk. If the money were a barrier to entry at all that a real significant chunk As a TD I hear from a lot of different players and there a subset of players who say it feels like every week I show up and I giving all my money to the same few people who win And that's a part of the pinball experience. I mean, some people are experiencing that. and a lower entry fee makes that less onerous. Back when I would regularly be jumping in as a TD, a jack bar as part of the group that's evolved to what it is now. At one point I was a regular guest TD. I started this as an experiment to see how it would go. I collected a dollar from every play and that is what got submitted to the IFPA and then there was no prize. Oh. And, you know, I got some positive reaction. I got positive reaction. You know, everyone was, at first, they'd come up and say, I'd say a dollar, please, and, you know, that was a raised eyebrow. Like, what? I just explained, you know, it's just dollar a night, we go to the IPA, no prize pot, and then, of the people who would be the ones with the complaints of spending too much every week, it was wildly positive amongst almost everyone positive responses and i especially want to note a couple of the people who were the the top people taking home all the money at the time in that run liked it too that's great and then when running bar k brooklyn pinball league along with woody and lauren and uche you know we we talked it over as a group i had been discussing what the league should cost, how much every night would be and things like that. And we decided then we have a single dues for the entire season. And that was for the IFPA but also for the trophies and stuff. And then a prize pool. But then every individual week, no cost to enter. Nice. But we did then have available a separate side pot and anyone who wanted to could put in the five dollars to the pot side pot every night whoever side pot every night not not for the whole month right not for the entire league just each night each night you know under the old league there was a uh a prize at the end of every week and that it just had how leagues had been going here in in new york city for sure you know every every night had its own prize spot so we got rid of the every night prize pot but allowed the side pot so the people who were interested in doing that for the night could and then the people who didn't want to didn't have to and i think it's worked out very well and i hope that uh i've you know started seeing that at some other things i hope it continues spread around i like that the buy-in that's you have the option to do so and when you create the option well then there's more paths to doing the same thing i remember when i was a new player i'd You're like, fuck, I need some more dollar bills. Nowadays, I don't bother counting how much I'm playing because I know I'm going to spend probably single digits in a single night. When I was first starting out, the bumper factory in Upper West Side was actually a very good value proposition because I would spend more than $20 in an hour. And now $10 can last me an hour and a half, depending on what you're playing. So I like how this allows, again, the newer players the chance to put their dollars into practicing instead of paying the beginner tax, if you will. We jumped into this whole thing about entry fees, but we're talking about gambling. I mean, the monetariness. But I'm entering a contest and betting on myself to win by placing an entry fee. The inherent bargain of an entry fee is, look, you're paying this, but you have a chance to make it back. That is what gambling is. That's at the base of both of these things. Is it gambling exactly? no clearly the entry fee isn't what the IFPA rule is talking about and it doesn't seem like dollar gains really is either but also if I'm Pete Rose and I only ever bet on myself and as much of a scumbag and a shithole as I think that guy probably was may he rest in whatever I think he was probably a dirtbag but I also I also think that he was a competitor and he only ever bet on himself as he said i think that the reason that he couldn't understand what was wrong is that he only ever bet on himself to win and so what's wrong with that and i i think that you know when you say players are strictly prohibited from placing soliciting or facilitating any bet whether directly or indirectly through a third party on any IFBA-sanctioned tournament in which they are a participant and go on to say this rule extends to tournament directors, scorekeepers, it is really hard to feel that this is any more serious than the kind of ban that makes a martyr of someone and then almost immediately makes a joke of itself. It's hard to take it that seriously based on the fact that there is something philosophically at the heart of it that is not at all different from gambling. I kind of see the entry fee with the prize pool being you have a 1 in 44 chance or whatever, but then that gets scaled to however good you are versus however good the other people are. And if you are clearly not going to get first, well, you're just involuntarily being told to make this not winning bet, if you will. And obviously that is different than the intention or the spirit of the rule. I think it's always good to reduce conflicts of interest. Cough, cough, David Banks and Eric Adams. However, this is not the real example for it, but you talk about coalition building and politics and such. You unite around a single issue, right? A lot of people say don't let somebody say your class war is really a culture war or something, right? 99% versus 1% instead of all the different alphabet mafia, if you will. Not that those are false equivalences, but the fact is there's a lot of things that you have in common. A lot of people care a lot more about sports now because of sports betting. And a lot more people care a lot more about all of the game now because of sports betting. Because with parlay bets, it doesn't just have to be who's winning, who's losing. It can be, hey, third quarter, this thing is going to happen. So you become very invested in each part of the game. I think that there is also a crossover here in a culture. And I think part of it is that to me, philosophically, there's no difference between betting on yourself to do this or betting on yourself to win a poker tournament. You know, there's, there is just no difference to me. I have a buy-in amount and my object is to succeed. And if I succeed, the result is that I have money. And if I don't, the result is that I don't get any of my money back that I put in. That it's, you know, I, I think there's, there's a culture crossover, not only among players. and I don't know if it's a coincidence but the operation that was Williams Pinball which was merged with Bally Pinball is still, both of them actually, are still gaming brands of a company headquartered in Las Vegas, now under the title Light and Wonder, they're publicly traded on NASDAQ under the call sign LNW and they make slot machines Like make no, make zero distinction here. They make slot machines. When Williams stopped making pinball, they stopped making pinball because slot machines were more profitable. Pinbox 2000 was obviously a joke and it probably brought down the division in some way. But I think the division would have gone down either way. I don't think that there was a big future for pinball machines being manufactured the way that that company was manufacturing them in the manifest destiny industrial sort of model. These things are inextricably linked. The origins of this game that we all play is objectively gambling. Yeah. It's interesting you bring up the culture thing. And for better or worse, similar to how in mostly American but also just Western in general, the idea of personal grit and doing your best is a thing. The American individualism. Yes. This is also just mass generalization. But the idea of luck in Eastern cultures, again, this is massive, like hemispherical levels of generalization. Luck is a big thing. my sort of moral hypothetical to both of you is let's say legitimately on FanDuel, Caesars Rewards, DraftKings, you can not only bet on sports, but you can also bet on chess. You can also bet on darts. You can bet on pool and you can bet on pinball. What would be your thoughts on this? Would you be okay with this because you could bring more people into the community or would this be too high a moral cost for you to be okay with this as an avenue, too close to a deal with the devil, if you will? I have a really strong feeling on this. I'm going to jump in right away. As long as you allow me to bet on myself vis-a-vis the entry fee, and as long as there is not actually a penalty for choosing not to compete while a part of a four-player group, as long as there is not actually some rule against that. Because the problem with there not being a rule against that and there being betting, that is that I could not bet on myself or bet on my competitors and then throw it because someone else who did can buy me out and I can throw the... As long as there is not some sort of like, you can't plunge your ball and let it drain rule to give up after you're already in front. I don't think that it's okay to have this out there. There is a rule in the IFPA rule set that you have to compete your best. Yeah. you have to try at every game. Now, there is, you know, a moral argument about when your tournament advancement, you know, could be helped by a lower performance in a particular game. That's right. That's probably okay, I think, under this rule, but the rule is there specifically as a moral rule. Don't throw a game. And that includes being connected with a gambling proposition. Sure. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I just think that, I mean, obviously it's very hard to understand or know when someone might be throwing a game if they even tried a little bit to make it look like they weren't. There are a few rules in there that involve player intentionality, and as a tournament director, you have to respect. You can ask, and they can tell you, and that's what it is. That's the best you can do. Any collaborative effort between players in an attempt to unfairly affect the outcome of the competition or to lock out a third player or to otherwise refrain from making the best possible competitive effort on each and every game played will be looked upon very poorly by tournament officials and may result in disciplinary action, including disqualification and or ejection from the tournament. I'm going to see where commas are in that because I feel like the first qualifier rules the whole thing, which is that there has to be collusion for it to be a problem. And in fact, collusion between or among players, which is to say that exactly the scenario that I outlined before is not strictly against the text of that rule. I think it plays wider. It seems there's actually a fair bit more of morality than I originally thought with the game. Originally, I thought this would just sort of be a fun segment of a hypothetical situation, but I never considered the entry fee and the magnitude of that, the voluntariness of paying the entry fee versus the side bet. Maybe the specifics of sports gambling and pinball wasn't as deep as it could have been, but I appreciate the different avenues we've explored so far. That's all for this week's pod. Join Eric, Madeline, and Jose Garcia next week for NYC Pin Pod, when I believe they will discuss local competition results. I believe they'll review single-cut Beersmith Queens as a pinball venue. And in Ball 3, I think they're going to talk about media representation of pinball. Get ready for some brackets. Between now and then, whatever you're up to this week, pinfolk, go get them. And Neptune's Treasure suffered a home loss in week one. just about the time that my cat crashed a fucking lunchbox down off a bookcase cat is hungry so a flair for the dramatic