Episode 896: "What JAWS Response Says About Pinball Today"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·31m 20s·held·Jan 4, 2024

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Jaws Pinball reveals systemic pinball industry problems: rising prices, broken trust, compromised design, and exploitative DLC-like topper strategies.

Summary

Kaneda analyzes the divided community reaction to Jaws Pinball's reveal, attributing negativity to punishing price points ($13,000 LE) and eroded trust in manufacturers. He argues the game will shoot well but suffers from uninspired mechanical design, missing IP assets (Roy Scheider estate restrictions), and the broader industry trend of charging premium prices while cutting physical features in favor of LCD screens. He critiques Stern's practice of withholding toppers and additional content as disguised DLC, breaking the relationship between manufacturer and collector that once drove FOMO.

Key Claims

Jaws Pinball will be Keith Elwin's best shooting game to date in terms of satisfaction, despite mechanical and thematic compromises.
high confidence · Kaneda, directly stated as his prediction based on playfield design philosophy
Roy Scheider's family (the Scheider estate) would not allow use of his likeness, so Stern was not able to include the main character.
medium confidence · Kaneda, citing industry knowledge but not direct confirmation from Stern or the estate
Jaws LE will sell out to distributors but won't match Godzilla's success (6,000 units); it will perform similarly to Jurassic Park.
medium confidence · Kaneda's prediction based on market analysis and distributor conversations
Stern broke customer trust by repeatedly releasing upgraded versions (Elvira, Jurassic Park, Godzilla) after LE purchases.
high confidence · Kaneda, citing documented industry practice and customer complaints
Spooky Pinball is successfully integrating all IP assets into games at release, unlike Stern and Jersey Jack.
medium confidence · Kaneda, as an observation but without specific game examples cited
The new Scooby-Doo interactive topper ($969) is disguised DLC that should have been included in the base game given its $12,000+ cost.
high confidence · Kaneda, direct critique of current Spooky Pinball strategy
Jack Guarnaeri (Jersey Jack) declined to make Jaws Pinball initially due to inability to secure Roy Scheider assets, then later made games without actor assets anyway.
low confidence · Kaneda, anecdotal reference without sourcing
Batman 66 (2016) was the last Stern game released with all physical components (topper, art) visible at launch; modern games withhold toppers for 2+ years.
high confidence · Kaneda, citing specific historical example and current practice

Notable Quotes

“I think the reason why is the prices really have beaten everybody down and everyone's looking at everything a little bit more cynically and with a lot more sort of hesitation.”
Kaneda @ early in episode — Core diagnosis of community sentiment shift; identifies pricing as root cause of negativity
“At these prices, there shouldn't be any compromises. At these prices, these themes should be fully integrated with all the assets.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Articulates core value proposition argument: price-to-completeness ratio has failed
“If you remove the need to get an LE, you are then liberated... because the game is going to be played for five years and by the time you want your premium, you're going to be able to get it for much less money if you just wait a little bit longer.”
Kaneda @ mid-to-late episode — Identifies FOMO mechanics as artificial and suggests the economic model is built on time-pressure rather than value
“The other half thinks we're idiots. We're this little subculture of people that have placed so much value and so much emphasis on something in which you already have so much of.”
Kaneda @ late episode — Self-aware critique of collector culture's relationship to excess; meta-commentary on hobby dysfunction
“It's absolutely stupid. The last game that came out where everything was on it on day one except for the code. Remember that day, it was a glorious day when Stern revealed in 2016 the Batman 66 game.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Establishes Batman 66 as industry standard for completeness at launch; frames topper-withholding as regression
“You shouldn't have to decide between a serious life priority and a pinball machine. If that's the case, you shouldn't even be in the pinball market for a new game.”
Kaneda @ final segment — Ethical boundary-setting; warns against financial overextension in hobby spending
“The destruction of the LE buyer base and the destruction of that loyalty is really the biggest issue in pinball because that's where all the FOMO is.”

Entities

Kanedaperson Keith ElwinpersonStern PinballcompanyJaws PinballgameJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyBatman 66game

Signals

$
market_signal: High prices ($13,000 LE, $15,000+ with toppers) are driving widespread negative sentiment and cynicism toward new releases across the community.
high · Kaneda directly states 'prices really have beaten everybody down' and observes 'more negativity than ever before in this beautiful hobby of ours'; cites divided reactions to every new release
?
collector_signal: Stern's repeated practice of releasing upgraded versions (Elvira, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, potential Metallica) after LE launches has destroyed collector confidence in LE exclusivity and resale value.
high · Kaneda explicitly names games where upgrades followed LE sales; states 'they've broken the trust between customer and manufacturer'; notes secondary market degradation (Foo Fighters LE down to ~$9,500)
?
product_concern: Jaws Pinball's toys are characterized as uninspired, cheap-feeling, and poorly sculpted despite $13,000+ LE price; shark reveal is underwhelming; compared unfavorably to Jersey Jack's Pirates of the Caribbean (2018) and older Stern designs.
high · Kaneda states 'all feel kind of cheap...The sculpts are not there'; criticizes shark bash toy: 'The big miss in the game from a mechanical standpoint is the shark itself'; contrasts Jaws shark unfavorably with Balrog toy in LOTR
?
licensing_signal: Roy Scheider's estate denied permission for character likeness in Jaws Pinball, forcing Stern to use only back-of-head footage and preventing inclusion of the main character from the film.
medium · Kaneda states 'His family, the Roy Scheider estate would not allow anybody to use his likeness'; notes this was a significant thematic compromise; speculates whether Jaws should have been made without full IP integration

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.094

0:00

What becomes of the broken hearted? Who had love that's now departed? I know I've got to find some kind of peace of mind I said I said I said I said I said I said I said I said I Doesn't it feel like Jaws Pinball has been out for like a year? I've been reading all the comments, I've been reading all the feedback and I really wanted to wake up early this morning I just give you sort of my thoughts on this game and the reaction to it and I'm reading everybody's commentary and it is very divided. And the first thing I wanted to say on this episode of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast is I've noticed more than ever before in this beautiful hobby of ours, the level of overwhelming sort of divide and unhappiness with any new thing that happens in pinball. I think the reason why is the prices really have beaten everybody down and everyone's looking at everything a little bit more cynically and with a lot more sort of hesitation, right? Something gets dropped into the pinball world, whether it's a new topper from Spooky Pinball for $969 or a Jaws pinball machine that people have waited a decade for for $13,000, it doesn't matter what it is. Every time something drops now, there is a divided camp in pinball. I think there are just a group of people out there who just don't want anything at these prices and we're going to hear from them and they're going to be very loud and very vocal. And then there are people that just love pinball, love playing pinball and they don't really even think about the prices. And I think what happens too is sometimes those people really ignite the first camp of people because they're like, wait a minute, are you telling me that we're just supposed to look at the shots in a game and we're not supposed to ask if the money is going to be Came n The game is funny and this has been a narrative that has been building in pinball over the last few years that shots are the new toys in pinball.

2:25

Look at a game like Elton John. It is empty of toys. Absolutely empty. And Jersey Jack was a company that loaded games with toys. And the only praise the game has is it shoots well. And so then you think about it for a minute though. Doesn't a Stern Pro shoot Aren't Steve Richie's Stern Pro Machines the best shooting games he's ever made? No upper playfield to slow down the ball? No lower playfield to slow down the gameplay? And so now, if you just put a lot of lights and a lot of artwork on ostensibly a Stern Pro Machine and you light the damn thing up like it's Christmas morning with 2500 RGB LEDs and so now it's worth $12,000? You lift a playfield on an Elton John. It looks a lot like a Stern Pro from six years ago that used to cost $5,000. And that's where a lot of the divide is coming. So I think we all have to accept that this is the new state of pinball. We're going to have these divided camps constantly. Now let's look at Jaws Pinball for example. How do we feel now? The game leaked on a Tuesday. It is Thursday. I don't know really what we're going to get today. It's supposed to be the feature videos of what's in the game. But here's The things people really want to see now, what's going to be in the code and the software of the game? What I'm noticing is that people are really going to have to come to terms with the fact that Brody is not in this game, much like Ripley was not in Alien when it first came out. Remember what Andrew Highway said, you play as Ripley, as if that's some sort of Unfortunately, the title of the show is not available for the game. I am hearing that you play as Brody. People will never accept that. A fan of a franchise will never accept the fact that the main character from the movie, or the TV show, or the rock and roll band, you are playing as them. They do not appear in the game. From the footage we've seen so far on Jaws, it looks like Brody is in there but just the back of his head. Video Saw na 𝐵𝐲𝐸 𝐳𝐚𝐷𝐸𝐳 𝐲𝐺𝐸 𝐸𝐬𝐲𝐬𝐸 𝐳𝐶𝐷𝐳𝐭𝐬 𝐷𝐬𝐬ervation will be said Are they gonna pull Richard Dreyfuss's sound clips from the movie or is someone going to overdub Dreyfuss? Now look, everybody wants the original callouts from the film. We got the original callouts from the film in a movie called Lord of the Rings in 2004. So here we are 20 years later and Stern can't get the actors from the movies to do the callouts and grab stuff right from the direct audio and no ladies and gentlemen I heard this excuse well the audio doesn't sound good from the original film so it's probably better that they overdub the actors get outta here people you could easily grab great audio callouts from the film from the nineteen seventies come on that is such an excuse Batman 66 sounds perfect and guess what year Batman66 clips are from? 1966 so it's not an excuse. So I'm reading this Jaws commentary and the feedback and a lot of the discussion is around like whether or not this game is checking all of the boxes, whether or not this game is going to sell out in LE format. And I just wanted to think about this for a day and now I'm kind of at a place where I think I'm at a level grounded, a fair point of view on this game and I want to share it with you right now. Obviously my opinions might alter as I see more of this game but I want to say this. I think people are somewhat overreacting to Jaws Pinball right now. I think everybody needs to take a deep breath and realize a few things are happening in pinball right now. First and foremost, you don't have to buy this game. Nobody is making you buy this game. There is a level of anger around new pinball launches as if this is a medical treatment you need to survive, to spend more time with your family, to make it another year. It's a pinball machine, people. Chances are you own many of them. Chances are you own games that you love. You don't need another machine. And if you walk into every new release with that attitude that I don't really need this unless I see something absolutely amazing that I have to own, it should be easy to say, hey, I'm good with what I got. I'm glad Stern made this machine. I'm glad Keith Elwin is making pinball machines in 2024, but it's just not the machine for me. I a little bit confused as to why people get so angry None of us are investors in Stern Pinball None of us have any financial interest in this game being a success other than distributors and the manufacturers So I do encourage everybody why be so upset that Stern pinball is fleecing everybody They will get what they deserve in the end if they overcharge for a product in which the value is not perceived to be there. And I do think they might be going down that road, but it's no skin off my back. I'm not a pinball player. I don't have money in them. There's absolutely no reason why I care either way whether Stern makes it or not. Now I do hope they do make it because without Stern Pinball this hobby would be really boring. Everyone else moves so slowly when it comes to manufacturing machines. Okay, so you don't need another pinball machine and Jaws comes out and it enrages you. I just encourage you to take a breath and chill out. Cate Dathy, Sp SEÑay100 statut wartoastwalt,kalpomspe Benson Basque Congrads Rebel+, KesawIIikalbashcalpunkennobингlPPi4x Office, Look at Jaws Pinball and I've heard people's complaints. I mean some people are saying this thing looks like a multi-morphic game, how all of the action is on the top one-third of the playfield and you could cut off the bottom two-thirds and there's nothing there. And those people aren't exactly wrong, but here's what I think people are missing with this game and I'm going to be fair. I think this is going to be Keith Elwin's best shooting game to date. Let me repeat that. I do. I think this is going to be his best, most satisfying game to shoot The game Yes, there's not a lot of shots in the lower half of the playfield and guess what? Shots in the lower half of the playfield are not that fun to hit. Shots in the lower half of the playfield often lead to brutal gameplay. They often lead to drains you don't want and it's much more satisfying to see the ball whip all the way up the playfield, whip around orbits at the top of the playfield, whip I'm not going to write it off right now and say, hey, this thing is empty compared to Godzilla. This thing is empty compared to Avengers. This thing is empty. I don't think it's going to feel that way when you play it. So I do think it's going to be his most satisfying game to shoot to date. So that's a very good plus for this game. Now, when it comes to the mechanical stuff in this game, do I think this is the most impressive mechanical stuff that's been in a Keith Elwin game? And do I think this is the best world under glass of a Keith Elwin machine? And the answer is no. Like these toys, there's just something about them. They all feel kind of cheap. They all feel kind of uninspired. The sculpts are not there. For this much money, this is the real issue with Stern and it's not just this Elwyn machine. When you look down at this game, do you feel like you're looking down at that Jaws world? Like watch the movie, see the world of Jaws and are you seeing it in this game? It's a movie about a seaport town where a great white shark is killing people. Where's the beach? Where's the ocean front? Where's the shark fin that looks like a shark fin? Where's the boat? The orca doesn't even look like the orca. It's just a bunch of plastics, people. This looks like Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean ship when you take all of the sculpts off to work on the pirate ship. And that's the other thing too. Are we supposed to forget that Jersey Jack Pinball gave us a boat like six years ago in a machine that was $9,000? And look how amazing it was. Look at all the Up The thing it's like every time a new stern comes out the stern army wants you to look at this thing in Like this myopic view they want you to have this tunnel vision that you're not allowed to ask questions Like how could Jersey Jack put all of that into a game? That's much cheaper than this game six years ago And so you look at the orca you look at the other ship that's in this game where the shark pops out of and the shark bash toy We've been jaki forma in video to The Big Miss In The Game From A Mechanical Standpoint Is The Shark Itself The moment Jaws reveals itself in this game is so underwhelming. This entire game needed to revolve around that moment. And I get it's a bash toy. But think about this, think about the way Balrog, one of the best bash toys in Stern The Ballrog is incorporated into the game. He swings out. He's blocking the bridge to the ring. And all of that is like the perfect translation of what's happening in the movie. And you're bashing him and he lights up and the shaker motor is going and everything about him, the scope looks great. Everything about the Ballrog bash toy is amazing. And then you look at this Jaws. You don't even see his fin. It's just his face. Daddy bottom line on the issue of pinball disad jakie Smarta Ap ransom and got seven zarate is a A lot of the people that I've talked to on the show they're going to hide behind the fact that this game shoots amazingly well. The toys are not that great. The artwork is uninspired. They don't have the main character from the movie. And here's the thing people it's not that Stern cut corners. They were not allowed to use him. His family, the Roy Scheider estate would not allow anybody to use his likeness. So it's not Stern. No money in the world is going to change the families mind. And so don't blame Sternpinball for him not being in the game. But it does beg the question, if you can't get him, should you make Jaws Pinball? And look, would you rather have Jaws Pinball or no Jaws Pinball at all? That the question you need to ask yourself I know Jack Guarnari was looking into this theme and when he realized he couldn get Roy he didn want to make the game It kind of funny Jack would say that because then he went on to make like four games in which he has like no assets from the actors in the movies he made It's funny to me that pinball has become this constant ongoing series of compromises. But at these prices, and this is where I think all the anger is coming from, at these prices there shouldn't be any compromises. At these prices, these themes should be fully integrated with all the assets. Spooky Pinball is doing it. Why can't Stern Pinball do it? Spooky Pinball just did it. Why isn't Jersey Jack doing it? And we don't want to compromise anymore and we shouldn't accept compromises anymore. Because you could go back and buy older games that have all the assets you want. And the thing about pinball in modern times is this, and we all know this. The moment that LCD screen got introduced to pinball, the moment they could actually put up clips from the movies, the moment they could do more with animations, they took all the mechanical magic out of the games. It's been a problem with pinball for a long time. When you didn't have an LCD screen and you only had a DMD screen and you wanted to bring that theme to life in a pinball experience, you mechanically had to do it. Now they're relying so much more on a screen. And so then the question is will Jaws LE sell out? Well look, everybody knows it's going to sell through to every distributor. Some are going to have their allotments sold out. I was talking to Mike at Automated. I'm sure a lot of distributors their games are spoken for. They've been building their Jaws LE list for a while. Remember distributors have been hosed over the last two years. They're sitting on a ton of unsold inventory and so this is like a windfall game they've needed. Now is this the magical windfall game we all thought it would be? Is this the game that's going to sell as well as Godzilla? Is this going to sell 6,000 units? What is this going to be? The hero and the white knight of the pinball industry of 2024? I don't think it's going to be. I think it's going to do just fine. I really do. I think it's going to end up kind of like Jurassic Park did. I mean, think about it. Jurassic Park is arguably a more popular theme than Jaws. Jurassic Park has a lot of great mechs in it. It has a much better mech in it with the T-Rex than the shark and Jurassic Park's artwork is kind of mediocre, just like Jaws. So if I were to predict how is Jaws Pinball I think it's going to do what Jurassic Park did. It's a game that's going to come out. People are going to buy it. It's going to shoot well. It's going to be fun, but it's not going to change anything. It didn't bring anything innovative to the table. And after a couple months from now, nobody will really be talking much about it. And that's what will happen. And the other conversation I'm noticing, which is a very fair conversation Let's begin by including the word time and theurarntoin pickle so I think everybody should be able to see what I'm saying.

21:45

The other half thinks we're idiots too. We're this little subculture of people that have placed so much value and so much emphasis on something in which you already have so much of. And I think that's where I'm sort of getting to is this sort of philosophical space in this hobby where I'm not going to go in on these things unless it checks all the boxes, unless I absolutely need it. I'm not seeing the effort in these games for this much money. I mean that's just it. We all know it. For this much money, this is not working for me. It's not working for a lot of you. Now speaking of this much money, we're also getting to the point when you buy a game and you load it up with every option, you don't want to have to go back and buy more stuff to unlock more modes, right? Downloadable content disguised as pinball toppers. And I saw yesterday Spooky Pinball came out with a new topper for Scooby-Doo. My first question was, well, doesn't Scooby-Doo already come with a topper? Yep, but they made another one. And this one is interactive and it's really cool. It's got a bookcase that opens up. I guess that was the bookcase they sent me that time when they were teasing something. And it has like video modes that are up on that topper and it's got shaggy and it's got nice sculpts and plastics and it looks really cool. It's $969 and it is billed as the most affordable Interactive Video Mode Topper in the history of pinball or something like that. And here the thing it is really cool But then you read the feedback right Another thing that like really cool and it being met with the division People don want to have to go back and buy additional things When a pinball game comes out after two years of development everything that you want to have in the game should be in the game you shouldn have to go back and Add more accessories at a later date And that's what's starting to burn people because think about the video mode in that Scooby-doo They could have put that video mode on the other screen in the game that came with everybody's game The game which is just the LCD screen in the game and the reason they're not doing that is they want to create FOMO if you don't buy the topper and so now some people out there wrote a check for Scooby-Doo that's over $12,000 and now their game is taking a hit and now I got to spend another $969 to get the fully featured game and this is where everyone is just like I don't like this. Pinball should not become downloadable content disguised as toppers. I am 5667 캢 복ימ Curτά antioxid writ에길라ún의에서와 아니에요 새롭게 유로� TCP 편 miał Flip Wow Я 날뛰아 código�의 결�� 잠깐만 전반빙 mater password Horror I mean they've disguised the fact that their LEs with toppers are close to $15,000. Right? $15,000 for a Stern LE with a topper. And how did they go about disguising that? Well they don't even release the damn toppers when the games come out. You have to wait like two years and then you're dropping another $1,000 to $2,000 on a topper. It's absolutely stupid. The last game that came out where like everything was on it on day one except for the code. Remember that day, it was a glorious day when Stern revealed in 2016 the Batman 66 game. They had all three models lined up. They had the topper on top of the LE and the SLE. Now the code wasn't done but man when that game launched you saw everything that that game was going to come with. And yes the code took two years to get amazing but when was the last time Stern did that? If they want to charge $13,000 for a limited edition of a game and we're supposed to celebrate the fact that it's got a crappy barrel as a shooter rod, we don't know what the topper is going to be. Think about Foo Fighters. They've been bragging about what the Foo Fighters topper is going to be. The topper is not even out. The game is going to win game of the year. It's still a good game. It's a really good game. But look, I mean the hype on it is gone and now like the LE owners are waking up to the The game is now worth like $9,500 bucks. It's not Jack Danger's fault, it's Stern's marketing fault because they're fleecing us and the market is speaking back and by the time the topper comes out, who cares? Who cares? You know, I mean, they just came out with the Godzilla topper last year. The game has been out for two years and so this is where we're at in pinball and I encourage The easiest thing to do to enjoy this hobby is be patient, don't rush at anything, and just wait for the game that speaks to you. You don't need these games. You don't need a new game unless it's a game you really, really need. And everybody's out of space. And I see this. Everybody is out of space. So to move a game out that you love, something you love has to come in. I'm If you want to send a message to Stern you're not happy, just don't buy it. That is the easiest way to send a message. If you go on Pinside and argue and complain with Crazy Levy and Iceman and all the characters there, you're just going to drive yourself crazy. There's no need to do that. And I'll end this podcast with the most hilarious item of the day, which is our beloved artistic Superstar Casper Has Invented 1.4F¿'s zest and he's been selling these things in limited fashion. There's been like four times, he's been like, I'm never making anymore, and then he makes more. And apparently, he has only two left, and they will fit inside a Stern machine, and the way he's gonna do this, I'm happy to promote this for him, you have to email him your best offer, and he's going to take the best offer. Nan. I picked two winners. Talk about trying to combine FOMO with mystery with illegal copyrighted imagery. I mean, it's all right there, people. He dropped this offer the day Jaws Pinball got revealed. I hope he tells us how much these go for. And here's my advice for Mr. Franchi. Why stop with just two? You've already sold a bunch of these. You're not allowed to sell them. And now Stern's making a game where, like, you probably could sell a few hundred of these. If you're gonna break the law a little bit, you might as well just break the law a lot and make a ton of money, brother. I mean, I just really hope Franchi understands that nobody really has that much of an issue with this. The issue is trying to pretend like you're not doing something that's wrong. It's okay. This isn't like some terrible criminal offense. You're selling unlicensed artwork. You do it all the time. It's okay. It happens at every comic show. It happens all over the internet. A little bit of the bad guy every once in a while. He'd have much more fun if he was a villain like Kaneda instead of trying to be the nice guy to all these manufacturers and then he's selling artwork that's not approved. It doesn't matter. It's really funny to me. It's really funny to me everybody. Have a great day. We're going to see more about Jaws today and we're going to obviously it's okay if our opinions change like it's okay if you see enough and you want to buy an LE like I'm not mad at you. It's your money. Do what you want. I have some really good ideas for the upcoming season of Pinball and I don't think we should be attacking people who get excited about the game and I also don't think we should be attacking people who don't like the game like we should learn to embrace all of the opinions around this game and here's the thing opinions are free they don't cost you anything and it's more fun to me to talk about these games and talk with all of you about these games you know it's not fun writing checks for fifteen thousand dollars For something you know you don't really need. That's where it's not fun. That's where you get a little bit nervous. And that's where you get yourself into trouble. I'm seeing people in the pinball space who have bought way too many games and it's clear they've overspent. And you can never anticipate in life you're going to make as much money tomorrow as you do today. I mean my dad always taught me this. Live well below your means because tomorrow is not going to be as good as today. You shouldn't have to decide between a serious life priority and a pinball machine. If that's the case, you shouldn't even be in the pinball market for a new game. Everybody, have a great day. We'll talk to you soon.