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How To Arcade With Amy McDonough of Tilted Orbit

Bash Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 5m·analyzed·Dec 18, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.023

TL;DR

Amy McDonough details her path to opening a commercial arcade in Massachusetts and lessons learned along the way.

Summary

Bash A A Pinball Podcast interviews Amy McDonough of Tilted Orbit about her journey starting a commercial arcade in Massachusetts. Amy discusses her pinball origin story (rediscovering the game at Fun Spot in New Hampshire), accumulating 56 machines before securing a location, navigating liquor licensing challenges, running the Upper Playfield pop-up pinball club, and her vision for a dedicated family-friendly arcade space in the Five College area with food, beverages, and complementary partnerships with other regional pinball venues.

Key Claims

  • Amy owns 56 pinball machines acquired before securing a permanent arcade location

    high confidence · Amy McDonough stated directly: 'I ended up buying, in total, I have 56 Pinball machines.' She identifies this as one of her first business mistakes.

  • Massachusetts liquor licenses are allocated per capita and constrained in rural areas; a closed bar's license in Northampton sold for $100,000

    high confidence · Amy explained the regulatory environment: 'liquor licenses are available for towns based on a per capita calculation' and 'there was a bar that closed down in Northampton and their liquor license was for sale. But it was like $100,000.'

  • Amy uses ClickUp (free project management software) to manage arcade development with task interdependencies

    high confidence · Amy stated: 'I'm using I think it's called ClickUp. It's a free software online that just allows you to put in all of your tasks. And the most important thing is it has interdependencies.'

  • Upper Playfield, a pop-up pinball club in Springfield, MA operated by Amy and a partner, ran the New England Pinball League (NEPL) League with 40+ locations

    high confidence · Amy: 'we were doing what's called the New England Pinball League (NEPL) League, which is a really big, it's like over 40 locations in New Robert Englunds. And we were doing Monday nights.'

  • Amy's target arcade will be 4,000-5,000 square feet with a 75-25 pinball-to-video arcade game split

    medium confidence · Amy stated: 'I think I need something like 4,000 to 5,000 square feet' and later 'probably a 75-25 split pinball to arcade games.'

  • Amy rediscovered pinball at Fun Spot in New Hampshire after a 20+ year absence and immediately became captivated

    high confidence · Amy: 'she was working on an island. So she had two weekends off... It rained the whole weekend... I went running upstairs. My kids, three hours later, they're on the like, you know, the PA being like Amy McDonough.'

  • Western Mass Pinball Club has approximately 80 pinball machines and is located about an hour from Northampton

    high confidence · Amy: 'the Western Mass Pinball Club, which is great, and it has like 80 pinball machines. Not all of them are on the floor, you know, all the time... That place is about just a little shy of an hour away.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I ended up buying, in total, I have 56 Pinball machines. Wow. And I'm not going to be able to fit that many.”

    Amy McDonough — Reveals her impulsive pre-location purchasing strategy and acknowledges it as a business mistake, illustrating the challenge of separating collector passion from entrepreneurial discipline.

  • “It breaks my heart that they're going to be alone there... when they should be played.”

    Amy McDonough — Demonstrates the emotional connection pinball enthusiasts feel toward their machines and the drive to share them with others, a key motivation for her arcade venture.

  • “I have visions of a pinball passport where we're quoting each other... I have really focusing more on the arcade feel, like bring your family, bring your kids, that kind of thing. So we're going to complement each other.”

    Amy McDonough — Shows forward-thinking collaboration strategy with other regional pinball operators, positioning her arcade as part of an ecosystem rather than a standalone competitor.

  • “There's not enough pinball. Like even if even if there was a place like down the street, I think I would still be doing this.”

    Amy McDonough — Underscores the passionate belief that the pinball market is undersaturated and driven by community demand, not pure profit motive.

  • “It's like a little study. We really want to get into the minutiae of how you do this instead of it just being like this vague nebulous thing.”

    Host (Matt or Don) — Explains the series' mission to demystify arcade startup processes for the community, framing interviews as educational documentation.

  • “I love it. I absolutely love it... projects with a lot of paths that have to move forward with interdependencies and timelines and risk and cost and schedule issues.”

    Amy McDonough — Reveals how her background in complex project management gives her unique skills for tackling arcade startup logistics, a transferable professional advantage.

  • “But the thing about a bar first with pinball machines... I think a lot of bar owners don't even understand the actual value and the community behind pinball. I think it's just like another, put something in that corner and maybe people will play it.”

Entities

Amy McDonoughpersonBash Pinball PodcastorganizationMattpersonDonpersonTilted OrbitcompanyUpper PlayfieldvenueWestern Mass Pinball Clubvenue

Signals

  • ?

    venue_signal: Amy McDonough is establishing Tilted Orbit, a dedicated family-friendly pinball and arcade venue in the Five College area of Massachusetts (Northampton/Amherst), addressing a perceived gap in the regional market where pinball is typically secondary (bars/breweries) rather than primary.

    high · Amy confirmed she left her job to work on this full-time; target space is 4,000-5,000 sq ft; she explicitly identified market demand: 'there's not enough pinball' and noted absence of dedicated spaces in the Five College area.

  • ?

    business_signal: Massachusetts liquor licensing laws create significant operational and financial barriers for arcade operators. Licenses are allocated per-capita by town and rarely available; secondary market prices ($100k+ in Northampton) effectively prohibit entry for small operators, forcing relocation to less-populated areas.

    high · Amy spent months mapping liquor license availability before narrowing viable locations. She noted $100k cost for a closed bar's license in Northampton and described the licensing cascade: 'wine and malt licenses' from local authorities, then state-level approval for liquor.

  • ?

    community_signal: Emerging pinball arcade/venue operators in the New England Route 91 corridor (Connecticut-Massachusetts-Vermont) are developing informal partnerships and cross-promotion strategies, including the concept of a 'pinball passport' linking venues and high scores across locations.

    medium · Amy discussed vision: 'pinball passport where we're quoting each other... we can all complement... set high scores and you got to go over here to get it.' She's building relationships with GameCraft (CT), Almost Famous, Gravitate (VT), and others.

  • ?

    collector_signal: Enthusiast/operator Amy accumulated 56 pinball machines before securing a permanent arcade location, citing FOMO on deals and collector expansion. She recognizes this as a critical mistake, illustrating tension between passionate acquisition and business discipline. Games are distributed across storage spaces (Chris Cardassi's warehouse, electrician friend's space, other friends' homes).

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.044

0:00
Hey, Matt here. There is also a video edition of this interview on YouTube at Bash Pinball and there's a direct link in the show notes if you want to jump straight there.
0:20
Hello, Matt. Hello, Don. Look at this beautiful space. We have a drum set, a lute, a bass. Is that a... We have lamp. Is that a tambourine? That is a tambourine on a hi-hat. And a weird keyboard from the 80s. Oh, and I think that's a tabad. Like a Casio? So where are we, Matt? We are in our little studio. It's a real studio. It's a baby music studio, yeah. Yeah, so this studio is like part of our shop where we make stuff. Right now, we're making a podcast in here. Right, so the Shedcade is temporarily kind of down because you're waiting for some fiber to be installed. Yeah, there's not as many fibers as there should be. But yeah, the internet sucks at the Shedcade right now. And it was supposed to be fiberified today. But they lied. Most of our future videos will probably be in the Shedcade and there may be pinball machines in the background instead of musical instruments. But this is still cool. Yeah, it looks cool. So what are we going to talk about? Today we've got like a different sort of episode than the usual. I don't know what is considered a usual episode for us. We like to switch it up, but this one's going to be extra different because it's an interview. Yeah, I would almost say this to me feels almost more like a side project within the project because part of what we're doing this season on the podcast is covering routing games. Yeah, I wouldn't call it a side quest because it really is what this season is about. It's just a different aspect because we've talked about earlier how our own aspirations are to start an arcade. And we thought, well, how are we going to do that? It's kind of complicated. It's confusing. There's a million different ways you can do it. So what better way to figure out how to do it ourselves than to talk to other folks who are doing it and who have done it, who are trying to do it, who are in the middle of it. And we kind of happen to know a decent number of folks who are kind of in this process. And so we figured let's talk to these folks and get this information out there, like how different people are going about this endeavor of routing games, routing pinball machines, building arcades. Right. So, yeah, basically this is going to be like an interview type series where we're going to talk to different folks at different stages, you know, starting halfway through maybe having owned an arcade for a couple of years to kind of get like a pretty broad range perspective of like what it takes to start it, to run it. Yeah. OK, we're going to talk to people all over the country. Maybe we don't have anybody now, but maybe we'll find somebody in another part of the world that's trying to do it. That would be great. Side note, contact us if you're in, I don't know, Bangladesh and you're trying to start a pinball arcade or anywhere else. It'd be cool to talk to somebody in a different country who's trying to go through the same process. Right, totally. Because it is different everywhere and every community and every place that you might consider putting an arcade is going to have completely different community, different types of populations, regulations, so many considerations. So, yeah, we just want to make this information more readily available to folks so that everybody can feel like there's less hurdles to actually jumping in and starting an arcade. And I mean, selfishly, we're benefiting from this ourselves because, you know, ultimately this is a dream of ours as well. Yeah, maybe find some like common pitfalls, common themes, common reasons why people do this. Yeah. It's like a little study. We really want to get into the minutiae of how you do this instead of it just being like this vague nebulous thing like, well, what's actually involved? You know, what are the steps like how how much money does it cost? You know, there's all these different things. There's so many elements to it for this series. The episodes can be a little longer, too, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just however long it takes and probably more conversational, right? Less of the kind of sound effects per se or production value more of just like conversational kind of understanding and learning about the process of starting an arcade or routing games. These are going to be more not formal because we're going to be talking to people we like that we're friends with largely. But we're trying to actually make something that is useful and functional. So we're going to be asking a lot of folks the same types of questions on these different interviews because we want to know how different people in different parts of the world are approaching the same types of problems. Yeah, this will probably be a little bit more informational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we're still going to edit these things. So, you know, they'll move along quickly. And I mean, if you have zero interest in arcades, then you might not find a lot here. But if you have even a passing interest in routing games or you've ever thought like, wonder if I can make some money off the games that I own or anything like that, you're going to get a lot out of this series. And we hope that this can be like a benefit to the pinball community at large. Sweet. Great idea. Nice job. We have at least three or four more episodes like this that are sort of lined up over the course of season two, which I don't know when that's going to end at this point. But this is going to be an ongoing series as we meet more and more folks who are engaged in this tomfoolery of trying to start an arcade. So on this first one, we've got Amy McDonough, who we met through the podcast about a year and a half ago. So and since we met her, she's kind of had this idea and she's just in the last two years started to really like put forth great efforts to to start like a really cool, legit arcade in Massachusetts. And so we're going to be talking to her about where she's at in the process, what she's been through to get to this point, what she's done right, what she's done wrong. It's really cool to have her as the first guest too because we were kind of there unofficially as this was kind of starting from inception in a way. She contacted us and made it known that she was like, hey, yeah, I kind of have aspirations for sometime pretty soon, have my own place. And sooner than later, man, we're here, she's doing it. Yeah, and usually when somebody says that, I'm like, uh-huh, right, right. It's sure. Usually like a 70% chance that it's probably not going to happen or maybe 60%. Right. I mean, who doesn't want to start an arcade? It's cool. But yeah, Amy is legit and like really was serious about this thing. No, she's serious. Yeah. So, yeah, it was cool to follow along and see where she's at now. And, you know, we look forward to kind of seeing her continued development and progress. But right now we have a really cool snapshot of being right in the middle of starting a commercial arcade. A big one. Not just like a little side corner thing, like an actual thousands of square feet in multiple areas. Yeah, so we hope this will be inspiring and informational and useful. And thanks to Amy for jumping on here and just being very open and transparent about sharing all the ins and outs of what she's gone through to get to this point. Yeah, thank you, Amy. Yeah, thank you so much. And without further ado, here's Amy. Amy, I'm really excited to talk to you because we've been basically emailing back and forth for like, has it been over a year? I think so. Man, I am so excited and so happy that we're finally doing this. We are actually chatting on the podcast about what you're doing and you've been keeping us basically updated kind of along the way and it's been really, really cool to kind of like just see someone doing it. And now, you know, it's even cooler to actually have you here to talk about that. Thanks. So maybe, Amy, you can tell us, how did you get interested in pinball? That seems like the first place to start, right? Sounds great. I played a little bit of pinball when I was a kid, but it wasn't like where I lived in Ohio. There weren't like the kind of places where you can get on your bike and, you know, go. There were two places. I really got into it in graduate school when I was at the University of Vermont. I had done all my geology field work and I was supposed to be writing my thesis and I didn't want to. And I was going to the local pizza place a lot and he put in two pinball machines and Adam's Family because this was mid-90s. Okay. Adam's Family and a Theater of Magic, I think it was. Nice. Ooh, awesome. That's a good starter pack. Yeah. And I was captivated with the Adam's Family and I loved it. And Mike was the name of the pizza guy, the pizza owner, and he was really into it. And we started putting tournaments together after we just, you know, wanted we wanted to play with more people all the time. And then I graduated and moved to Boston and got a job and got married and had kids and I just didn't think about pinball. It wasn't accessible back then to just like, where am I going to go? You know, look up on my app and figure out where the pinball machines are. So I kind of forgot about it until just like several years ago when my daughter was working up at Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire at a summer job. And she was working on an island. So she had two weekends off and I got one and her dad got the other. It rained the whole weekend and it was where Fun Spot is in New Hampshire, which is a really big pinball. And our kids got everything in there, bowling, golf and all kinds of stuff with my son and my daughter and their friend. And I was like following them around like a mom does, you know, like, oh, what are they into? You know, and all of a sudden I was like, wait a minute, do you have pinball? Because it was all arcade. It's like three levels. You haven't seen any pinball yet. And they were like, yeah, you got to go upstairs in the museum. And I went running upstairs. My kids, three hours later, they're on the like, you know, the PA being like Amy McDonough, blah, blah, blah. You know, because I was it was like riding a bike. I went home from that and was like, I got to play more. And that's when I started to realize like the whole landscape had changed. And it wasn't too long after that that I was like, wait a minute, I could get a pinball machine. You can get one, yeah. If I'm at a place where like, you know, I could do that. It's funny how that happens. It kind of like sticks in your pinball. Pinball has like a space in your craw. Right, your pinball craw. It kind of lays dormant there for a while. And if you haven't played it for a while, and then, you know, you kind of always come back. It is kind of like riding a bike, like you said. You never fully lose those basic skills. Instincts. Pinstincts.
  • Amy's arcade is planned for the Five College area (Northampton/Amherst, MA) with approximately 30,000 population

    high confidence · Amy: 'Northampton has like 30,000 people and UMass, sorry, Amherst up the road is equivalent in size' and 'there's nothing really up there' in terms of dedicated pinball spaces.

  • Bash Pinball plans 3-4 more arcade operator interview episodes as part of an ongoing series

    high confidence · Host stated: 'we have at least three or four more episodes like this that are sort of lined up over the course of season two.'

  • A new arcade with 8 pinball machines and video games opened in Northampton during Amy's planning phase, featuring Stranger Stranger Things (Premium/LE)

    high confidence · Amy: 'eventually I did leave my job and I started working on this full time. And an arcade did open up in Northampton. And it was eight pinball machines and video arcade games... They have an awesome Stranger Stranger Things (Premium/LE).'

  • Amy McDonough — Identifies a market gap and a value proposition: dedicated, well-maintained machines in venues where pinball is primary, not secondary, which contrasts with typical bar/brewery routing.

    Fun Spotvenue
    The Addams Familygame
    Theatre of Magicgame
    Godzillagame
    Stranger Things Premiumgame
    Chris Cardassi Pinball Servicescompany
    Joe Bowersperson
    Albany Bells and Chimesorganization
    Pintasticevent
    GameCraftvenue
    Almost Famousvenue
    Gravitatevenue
    Mystic Pinballvenue
    New Robert Englunds Pinball Leagueorganization
    University of Vermontorganization
    ClickUpproduct

    high · Amy stated: 'I ended up buying, in total, I have 56 Pinball machines' and later identified this as 'probably one of the first [mistakes] was like going on a pinball buying spree before I had a location.' She notes: 'You never really think about it when you have one or two. It comes quick. You run out of space pretty fast.'

  • ?

    operational_signal: The New Robert Englunds Pinball League operates 40+ locations across New England with distributed tournament scheduling (Amy ran Monday nights). Pop-up venues can serve league needs, but operator burnout/life events can disrupt league infrastructure.

    medium · Amy co-ran Upper Playfield as a league venue with 40+ total league locations. When her partner experienced personal hardship (broken leg, job loss), the venue closed, forcing league relocation: 'I kind of can't do this... we were doing Monday nights and we had a pretty solid family of people coming to play.'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Pop-up pinball clubs (e.g., Upper Playfield) serve as testing grounds and community hubs before permanent installations. They can host league tournaments, build operator/community relationships, and validate demand, but lack stability if dependent on volunteer operators.

    medium · Amy and partner started Upper Playfield with 4 founders; 2 dropped out ('just wanted to play their games a little bit, you know, not at home'). Operations continued as 2-person team running Monday night New Robert Englunds league tournaments until personal circumstances forced closure.

  • $

    market_signal: Western Massachusetts Five College area (Northampton/Amherst, ~30k population + major university) lacks dedicated pinball venue despite local pinball community presence. Western Mass Pinball Club exists but is ~1 hour away, BYOB, and restaurant-centric venues (4-8 machines) offer poor maintenance and lack food/beverage services.

    high · Amy: 'there's not really like a dedicated pinball space. It's pretty limited... there's nothing really up there' in Five College area. 'I would be frustrated sometimes with the quality of the games because it's restaurant first.' Identifies unmet demand despite existing players.

  • ?

    business_signal: Amy applies complex project management discipline from renewable energy sector to arcade startup, using free tools (ClickUp) to map interdependencies, timelines, and risk. This contrasts with seat-of-pants startup approaches and suggests a more systematic operator entering the market.

    high · Amy: 'projects with a lot of paths... I love it. I absolutely love it... what are all the paths and then you start to break those down.' Uses ClickUp for 'interdependencies... dates, you can put in what's related, what can't start until you get something else done.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Bash Pinball Podcast launching multi-episode series interviewing arcade operators and routing game entrepreneurs at various lifecycle stages (planning, pop-up, permanent). Series aims to document decision-making, costs, regulatory pathways, and community dynamics to demystify arcade startup process.

    high · Hosts stated: 'this season on the podcast is covering routing games... we're going to talk to different folks at different stages... 3 or 4 more episodes like this are lined up... walking up to owners and saying, how do you do this and why do you love it?'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Amy's arcade philosophy prioritizes pinball as primary attraction (75-25 pinball-to-arcade split) with family-friendly atmosphere and food/beverage service, contrasting with bar-first venues where pinball is ancillary and often poorly maintained.

    high · Amy: 'I wanted to be able to provide [food and drink]... the biggest revenue driver and liquor and drinks is liquor... restaurant first with pinball machines... bar owners don't even understand the actual value and the community behind pinball.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Amy plans to use her 56-game collection as a rotating asset and secondary sales channel. Partnerships with remote collectors (Chris Cardassi in Providence) enable game swaps (e.g., rotating inventory between Northampton and Rhode Island) to keep offerings fresh and move refurbished inventory.

    medium · Amy: 'we're kind of viewing our game collection... when there's something that's old to me now, I can send it down there and it's like new down there... provide opportunity... to potentially function as a sales floor... turn them over.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Amy's journey from casual childhood pinball player → 20+ year hiatus → adult rediscovery → passionate community participant → arcade entrepreneur reflects broader pattern of adult rediscovery driving demand. Her 'riding a bike' metaphor suggests latent skill retention and emotional resonance.

    high · Amy: 'I played a little bit of pinball when I was a kid... didn't think about pinball. Wasn't accessible... graduated and moved to Boston... It rained the whole weekend... wait a minute, do you have pinball?... it was like riding a bike... I got to play more... the whole landscape had changed.'

  • 11:11
    Man, that's good. That's good. So what was the first game that you got at home? Did you get an added family? I did. Nice. How much longer until you got the next one? Three months. Okay. I got a Godzilla pro. Similar trajectory to me. Okay. Yeah. At what point did you decide, okay, these are not my games anymore. Okay, I actually want to make this more of a public thing. For work, I was going to New York and I had an office in Troy and I wanted to play pinball with other people. And there was this little local group at a brewery that was doing regular once a month tournaments on Tuesdays. So I started rearranging my work schedule. So I was there on Tuesdays and I'd stay open. Yeah, and it was the community that was like probably building that was making me realize how big Pinball was compared to the super small scope of it that I kind of understood it to be. But it was through that I met the Albany Bells and Chimes and then through them went to Pintastic. It wasn't too much long after that then Pintastic happened, which is a Massachusetts Expo. I went to that, played my first tournament. Everything I did, I was like, oh, it's bigger. It's even bigger. Oh, my gosh, this is huge. And I was loving being a part of that community. There was a guy that I used to work with in the renewable energy business named Joe Bowers. He's awesome. He was just like, what is with this pinball thing in you? Like, I've known you for years. You're just talking nonstop about pinball all the time. And we were at lunch and I remember describing to him the moment that like really got me in pinball and was go time on the Adams family. When you get multi-ball and there's the boom, boom, boom, and everything's going crazy. I never did anything like that. And it set a real goal for me that I always wanted to get multi-ball. And so I explained that to Joe and he was like, you clearly need to do something with this. And then it wasn't too long after that that I think I emailed you guys. I was looking around for other ways to get more pinball. I figured out from my own travels around and playing pinball in clubs and bars and different places that I felt like food and drink were really important. And that I wanted to be like if I put if I was going to do an RK, I wanted that where I went. And if I was going to do it, I wanted to be able to provide it. So the biggest revenue driver and liquor and drinks is liquor. So I knew I was going to have to do something along the lines of a bar or I wanted to. And so that gets to in Massachusetts, liquor licenses are available for towns based on a per capita calculation. So I live really in the middle of nowhere. Northampton has like 30,000 people and UMass, sorry, Amherst up the road is equivalent in size and has some colleges in it. But otherwise, most of the towns out here are pretty small and there weren't any liquor licenses available. You can also buy liquor licenses. Like there was a bar that closed down in Northampton and their liquor license was for sale. But it was like $100,000. So that's a non-starter. Northampton is really popular. So people are waiting in line to try to get liquor licenses and they can sell that pretty well. So the whole time I'm trying to figure out where are their liquor licenses, I'm also working out that, yeah, indeed, I want a big arcade and I want food and I want a bar. So I think I need something like 4,000 to 5,000 square feet. And now you know, where is the per capita and an available liquor license? And where is there a space that big? And that really narrowed it down to just a few locations in the end. Yeah, and so I'm curious because we've looked into beer and liquor licenses in North Carolina where we are. In Massachusetts, are you specifically talking about a liquor license? Or is there a separate beer only license that you could get that's not as regulated? Yeah, no, you can. So if beer and wine is licensed or wait, wine and malt licenses, they call it in the local authority licensing entity can award it to you, at least in Massachusetts. But as soon as you add liquor, that's when you have to both get local approval and then state level. Gotcha. Amy, as you were figuring this out, the space, the size, the licenses, did you already know a lot of this? Were you kind of figuring it out as you went? Oh yeah, and did you have previous experience in retail or starting companies or businesses from scratch? No, no, no. Well, so what I did before was kind of complex project development and management. So like, you know, projects with a lot of paths that have to move forward with interdependencies and timelines and risk and cost and schedule issues, like all that kind of stuff is like, I love it. I absolutely love it.
    15:58
    You like herding cats, that's the project manager. Yeah, and that's definitely what renewable energy is like too, right? Because now everybody's for it. So you're like all for it and then you're like, you know, nobody else wants it. So I approach this in kind of the same way in terms of what are all the paths and then you start to break those down And I do that by just calling up people and talking about it nonstop and tap into the people that know the answers to it And it's it's a dozen different people because it's there's so much new stuff to me that I haven't figured out before. But at least I have like I have a structure to put it in of like how you, you know, think about these issues and then, you know, what you have to worry about now versus what you have to worry about later. Putting together a business plan, putting together a budget, the calculation of build-out and startup costs and build-out costs and all of those types of things I was very familiar with. I was making up the numbers in this application, but the structure of what to think about and probably some of the risks and some of the extra things like insurance and taxes. I was familiar with all of that. So I felt like I at least had the confidence of putting together a pretty robust business plan, even though the numbers are pretty much made up. And now I've been like that was in the beginning. And now I've been validating those numbers. Are you using some like project management software or some tools to help you kind of organize this project? I am. I'm using I think it's called ClickUp. It's a free software online that just allows you to put in all of your tasks. And the most important thing is it has interdependencies. So you can put in dates, you can put in what's related, what can't start until you get something else done or whatever. I felt like this is something that I could either through quite a bit of effort, probably build up myself through spreadsheets or I could find something that would help me do it. And that program has been working pretty well. It's very simple. Nice. Cool. That's good. Maybe some folks can benefit from that. Great question. Yeah, there's so many free tools. You said it's a free software, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's so many great free tools out there now that it's hard to know which ones to use. So it's so nice just having somebody be like, use this one. It's like, okay, I don't have to research 10 different. Yeah. I guess let's go back. So you got your first game, you got a couple games and you played in New York, you said, right? And you kind of got more of the community aspect of it and realized you wanted to get more people involved. So then locally, right, what was the next step? When I went to that Pintastic event, like a group of bells and chimes from Connecticut and Albany and Boston, they had a room there where everyone was bringing pins. So I got to really kind of understand who they were and what they were doing. So when I went home to Western Massachusetts, I was looking for bells events. And that's pretty much what I did exclusively for a while until the bells that I got to know were saying, You got to come to this event. You should come to this. It's so much fun. These people are great. And there's a really great place out here called the Western Massachusetts Western Mass Pinball Club. And it's been going for years and they're dedicated to it. And it's a great environment. I started going there and kind of branching out a little bit. I had to like kind of pull back a little bit because I felt like I was neglecting my children.
    19:13
    Relatable. Oh, man. I've heard that from at least like three or four different people. Yeah, it's crazy. There's so much to do around here. Honestly, there's a lot of events, which is great. So the local pinball scene in Northampton where you are, you said the population is about 30,000. Is that right? So as far as other arcades that are already there, what made you think you should add on to the scene in the way that you are? Yeah, well, you know, like the Western Mass Pinball Club, which is great, and it has like 80 pinball machines. Not all of them are on the floor, you know, all the time. Great space, but you have to bring your own food and there's nothing there. You've got to bring it all yourself. So, like, I was going there. It's kind of like, gee, you know, this is where my thoughts were kind of starting to get to. Gee, I really wish or wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to go get food and come back. That place is about just a little shy of an hour away. That's an easy travel for us pinball folks around here. So we will travel that far to go to a place. And then right in Northampton, unless I'm forgetting something, for pinball it's mostly bars and breweries that people have machines routed within. And so they're a lot smaller, four or eight games or something like that. It's like a typical bar first with pinball machines. So in that area, there isn't really like a dedicated pinball space. It's pretty limited. Yeah, that's right. You can go up to Vermont in Brattleboro in Southern Vermont. And there's a guy up there, Gravitate, who's got a pretty cool space. But, you know, you just there's there's nothing kind of right where we are. And there's nothing in what we call the five college area. So there's five colleges right around here. And most of them, including University of Massachusetts in their Amherst location, which is a pretty big campus, is up there in Amherst. And there's just there's nothing really up there. Even the places that there are, I would be frustrated sometimes with the quality of the games because it's restaurant first. What's the point of playing these games? Yeah, if the games aren't set up and maintained well, it's just kind of a bummer. It's really like a novelty. I think a lot of bar owners don't even understand the actual value and the community behind pinball. I think it's just like another, put something in that corner and maybe people will play it, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think I mentioned, but eventually I did leave my job and I started working on this full time.
    21:35
    And an arcade did open up in Northampton. And it was eight pinball machines and video arcade games and some console gaming and stuff like that. And it's great that they're there. They have an awesome Stranger Things Premium, if anyone wants to play us there. I want it.
    21:54
    Since you mentioned it, let me just put this out there because I need to put this out there. I want a Stranger Things Premium. Really? It's on my website. Actually, yeah, that's the game that I want the most right now because my kids are super into Stranger Things. Well, the new season, yeah. And I'm like, maybe I can get them into pinball because I've been trying to find that one game that might actually get them into pinball. So I'm just putting it out there. If anybody wants to send me a Stranger Things Premium, loan me one, give me one for half price. I'm just putting it out there. Okay, you may continue, Amy. Thank you for bringing Stranger Things. I'm trying to tell you the universe to get it back, Matt. I get it. Totally. You gave me the window. I had to take it. That's right. That's right. So but the thing about to and actually then since then, I found out that there's another town close to us named Turner's Falls. And there was a place there called Mystic Pinball before COVID. And I think kind of COVID impacted them. And they're now reopening. I want to bring this all up because there's not enough pinball. Like even if even if there was a place like down the street, I think I would still be doing this. And one of the great things about talking to everybody about it and, you know, walking up to the owners of GameCraft in Connecticut and the guys that are doing pinball at Almost Famous and all this kind of stuff and saying, how do you do this and why do you love it? And is it sustaining you and where are you going to go with it? And all that kind of stuff is I've gotten to know people. And where we live in Massachusetts, there's this 91 Route 91 corridor that goes up through Connecticut and up through where we live and all the way up to Vermont. And there's a ton of pinball places if you were to hopscotch all the way up the place. And so I have visions of a pinball passport where we're quoting each other. Like Danny's a pinball, sorry, his games are older and he likes a different era than like I'm really focusing on. And the vibe in his place has got a music focus, which I'm really focusing more on the arcade feel, like bring your family, bring your kids, that kind of thing. So we're going to complement each other. I think we can all complement. That's awesome. Right. We can we could like set high scores and you got to go over here to get it or play this certain game. It's only over at this other. I love that idea, Amy, like a pinball crawl. You know what I mean? It's cool. Yeah, it's cool. You should do that. I'll be the first one in line to do it. We should all do it. Yeah. We should do like the pinball crawl event. Yeah. In your arcade. Sounds great. Yeah. So what I wanted to know, too, you started kind of accumulating games. Let's say collecting games. Yeah. So which came first, the accumulating games or actually getting the lease on the space? Oh, I had the games before I left. Right. Yeah. Well, that was my next question. You are routing them, right? Is that right? Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess. Yeah, I am. Technically, I have some games out there right now. I've lent games to friends because I think Somebody said earlier something about just like a sentiment of wanting the games to be played. Like I feel that very strongly. Like I'm going to be putting some in storage in a little bit. And I just like it breaks my heart that they're going to be alone there. And yeah, storage location, you know, and when they should be played. But I would say thinking about this conversation, I was reflecting a little bit on mistakes. And this is probably one of the first ones was like going on a pinball buying spree before I had a location. I was working with a friend of mine who's in pinball and they had developed a pretty good criteria for how to think about what's a good game, what's a bad game. Just a few simple steps of looking at it. And it was always in the end. The fourth item is, is it a good tournament game? Will it throw people off to have it at a tournament? And I was always kind of a winner. There was a lot coming on the market over the last year and he was always sending me, this is a great deal, this is a great deal. And I'm like, you're right, it is. And I always, I wanted to play that game. It was expanding my own horizons massively. So anyway, I ended up buying, in total, I have 56 Pinball machines. Wow. And I'm not going to be able to fit that many. Unbelievable. Yeah, that won't even fit in the arcade. So, I mean, if I want to do some arcade games, like video arcade games, probably a 75-25 split pinball to arcade games. But it affords a lot of opportunity, actually, with the arcade to potentially function as a sales floor, right? To put games out there that we own, we refurbished, or we shopped out, and we want to turn them over. So I expect to have somebody turn over like that on the arcade. Cool. Once you're up and running, do you plan on kind of rotating through your collection of games and adding stuff? Yeah, and I have someone that I'm working with who also has games, and so we're kind of viewing our game collection. And he's located down in Providence, Rhode Island, which is an hour and 45 minutes away. So when there's something that's old to me now, I can send it down there and it's like new down there at games. He is a sorcerer that I want to get so badly. It's Chris Cardassi Pinball Services. I don't know if I'm allowed to drop that, but a good friend of mine, Chris. And the other thing, too, is that I never anticipated how many times I would have to move those games. And Chris has helped me with that a lot. So 56 games. So where do you have these games located now? I've number in Chris's warehouse space. Some are with a very good friend of mine who is an electrician and has some extra space to put them in. And some are being babysat by friends. Matt, are you thinking what I'm thinking? I know. I just wanted to tell me where they are so I can go rent an 18-wheeler. That's exactly what I was thinking. We got some right now. That's so funny. Long story. They're available to good friends. They take up a lot of room, too. You don't really think about it when you have one or two. It comes quick. You run out of space pretty fast. Yeah, it's like 10 square feet of machine, not including being able to walk around them.
    27:51
    So go back a little further. I was talking to everybody about it all the time, and I went down to this club that some guys had started down in Springfield. It's like 35, 40 minutes away. Started talking to those guys about my plans, and one of those guys was like, oh my god, this is my dream realized. And we started talking about, you know, just so excited how we could work on this together. Long story short, they ultimately invited me to bring some of my games to their club. So it was the four of us. And the place was called Upper Playfield. And then two of the guys dropped out. We were really we're doing a lot. I think they just wanted to play their games a little bit, you know, not at home. Then it was just the two of us running it and we were doing tournaments and all kinds of stuff. And I had moved more games there and it was going real well. And then my friend just had a couple strokes of bad luck where he broke his leg and lost his job and layoffs were happening earlier this year. And he was like, I just I kind of can't do this. And at that point, we were doing what's called the New England Pinball League, which is a really big, it's like over 40 locations in New England. And we were doing Monday nights and we had a pretty solid family of people coming to play, plus new people coming all the time. And I really wanted to keep that going. And that was ultimately how I ended up moving it to the house.
    29:12
    And then I held two stations here at the house. It ended up being a lie. Amazing. Amazing. What's the parking situation like? At the house? Yeah. I'm trying to imagine having... I have a long driveway. Oh, a long driveway. I told people they could park on the grass. So people would just like park in diagonally. I mean, I would be getting like between the most I ever had at a tournament was 28 people, I think. But the league was like 12, 14 to 15 people and tournaments were 15 to 20 people, stuff like that. So that's a decent chunk of people to have at your house. Yeah. And when pinball calls, you answer. You certainly answered, Amy. Yeah. That club, the upper play field was in this old mill building, you know, it's like confined. Yeah. And you had no elevator like it. You had to go up these creaky old stairs. And at night, there was very little lights outside. So the whole thing just kind of felt creepy. I was there late after a tournament and I had left on Evil Dead because I hadn't played it all night and I just wanted to play it before I left. And I turned off everything else and was leaving and I went, oh, wait, I forgot I left Evil Dead on. So I ran back, I'm going to play Evil Dead. And I turned it on. I hit start and it was like whatever Evil Dead does when you start is like, you know, like creepy noises. And I suddenly realized that where I was was really super creepy and I was like, nope. And I turned off the game and I like ran out and I couldn't even deal with like.
    30:46
    It spooked you. It spooked me. That's where we find pinball. I write like your guys' story about going and buying pinball machines. A lot of times we encounter places just to make pinball happen that aren't the best.
    31:03
    Pinball calls you answer. Yeah. And tell us the name of it too. Right. I didn't know if we're going to reveal that right away. Yeah. If you want. If you want to reveal the name. I think it's time. It's the Tilted Orbit Arcade. All right. That's cool. Cool name. Yeah. Can I just go off on a slight tangent and tell you about the process? Even for someone who's kind of used to putting projects together from scratch, it's a lot of two steps forward and one step back of constantly trying to reconcile the vision and what it costs to do that, what the budget is, and then where you think the revenue is ultimately going to come from. It's a constant effort to refine it, you know, to try to come up with that best thing that you can. That's probably taken like a good six months, even from knowing what I wanted to do, the real refinement where now I'm locked in and I've prepared a zoning board application for the town and it's submitted and we're getting their feedback about what we're going to have to do to get our permit. It is this kind of constant bit of iteration. And even if you think you have it so well thought out, you're going to learn so much as you lean into it. Like unless you have prior experience that you just have to be kind of prepared that you're going to have to sit back and be like, OK, knowing this now, I have to like rethink all these other things. And in a project like this where I'm doing build out, I'm putting in a bar, cooking capability and obviously the investment in all of the games. It a kind of a triad of like cost and schedule and risk And like you know what can I start now or what do I want to lean into now And and how does that all fit into the budget That is the process of putting something like this together So I think sometimes people think they going to figure out they going to go and they going to run with it And then they kind of bummed out or devastated even when it doesn work But you have to just be prepared that it not going to work and you have to pivot and rethink what you doing Always the goal is how am I going to do this pinball thing And if you keep focused on that you you figure it eventually In terms of money, have you found that so far it's costing significantly more, less, or about what you estimated? About what I estimated, originally I did want to do food made to order. That was my original concept. It wasn't going to be big, but it was sandwiches and stuff like that. But it was like you have a menu and you put in your order, it's cooked and comes out. I couldn't do that. The cost for the kitchen just eclipsed the cost for the bar but doesn't bring in the revenue that we expect the bar to bring in. So I had to just really lean into the bar and kind of minimize the food, thinking that later on I'll figure out what we can make work if we need to. The space that you're leasing does not have a commercial kitchen currently. The space that I'm leasing is actually an old, it was a supermarket, like a local kind of supermarket. It has three bay sinks and grease traps. So that's actually a big step towards the components of the kitchen. But no, other than that, it doesn't have, even the equipment that was there is gone. So you would be having to basically finance all of that stuff from scratch in order to be able to cook kind of on site. Yeah. And there was more build out involved with that option. So if I just, you know, again, like reoriented my thoughts, rethought about the different profit centers of the business that I'm trying to put together. I'm like, yeah, this one we can put aside. I still think food's important, but you can do really great things now with like those ovens, even that they have in Starbucks. Starbucks, yep. And microwave oven at the same time, you know, something like that, plus your regular snacks. The place is going to be set up to the front part of it is going to be kind of a more of a family feel arcade and it will have a snack bar, a concession stand kind of thing where kids can go and order. And then the bar is kind of towards the back. We have to have separation in Massachusetts, many states right between the bar and where the kids are going to be. Okay. So that food, what that oven can do actually lends itself real well to the kind of vibe and the theme of the arcade where the games are first and the food and the alcohol is kind of secondary. And so hours wise and like operating, do you have a plan as far as how late you guys are going to be open? I know around here, the bars that have pinball, they kick out the kids at like seven o'clock. Seven o'clock I think is the time, yeah. Yeah. 21 and up after seven o'clock. Yep. I'm going to do something like that, too. I don't there's not a mandated time as far as I'm aware, but we'll transition from daytime to nighttime just to make it easier to manage like what's happening at the bar. Right. How many hours can you be open and still keep your business profitable and staffed? Right. Well, right now, conceptually, I'm going to be open five days a week, but we may go to six if it's working real well. And the closed days are going to be Tuesdays and Wednesdays because I really want to keep I want to have my Monday leagues again and start that up at Tilted Orbit once it's open because we have a dearth of that. People do leagues on different nights and there's no Monday. Right. So I also want to be closed at least one day a week because I'm going to do a whole event space rentals. It's been one of the most common things that people that aren't even pinball people, when they just hear the concept, come up to me and say, I would love a place to have a company party that is cool. And people have things to do while they're there, not just, you know, a DJ and a throw down dance floor kind of thing. I'm thinking one to ten on weekdays and then on weekends or Friday night, you stay open till midnight. I think I said one o'clock in the application because I expect them to push back at night. Hope they're not listening. We'll open up at 11 on Saturday and Sunday, you know, so earlier. And just expand on that a little bit, too. I think about the footprint of the lease area as like how much money can I make within this footprint? I mean, not like greedy way, but like how many revenue streams can I operate and still provide the kind of experience and customer service that I want to. So I have a golf simulator room in the back of the arcades. There'll be a golf simulator and it's a multi-game simulator. So the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I'm hoping to be able to kind of make a connection with the local country club because they don't have a golf simulator. And of course, it's wintertime. You know, people got to figure out where they're going to play golf. And I set this up in my permit because I didn't know if there was something I needed to do to secure the alcohol to have my golf pro come in at eight o'clock and start his lessons. He just can keypad into the space, go back to the golf simulator, do his lessons, signing up online every hour. And then I imagine that room will transition into like the multi-game, you know, zombie dodgeball kind of thing in that room like later on. So again, trying to eke out more hours but actually with no manpower at all needed to be there while they're doing it. Have you figured how much staff you're going to require on an average day? I would just say that I think I'm probably going to have, I say 10 to 15, and sometimes I think it'll be more, 10 to 15 people on staff. Maybe more because of shift being open that many days and then shift because it's kind of like you have almost two meals, right? You'll have lunch and then like a late lunch and then you'll have a dinnertime thing. So you can think about that as potentially being, you know, different shifts and you need multiple people to cover the schedule. So I never thought I would need that money. Many. And the more I thought about it, the more I talked to people about how you have to think about staffing, the more I realized that you need kind of a deeper bench in order to cover all your scheduling needs. And that you're talking 10 to 15 total employees. I think on the floor, like say it's a weekend evening, there would be two bartenders, probably two to three people on the arcade floor. And then there's going to be someone at the welcome desk because when you first walk in, it's like, what is this place? How do you pay? How do you play the games? Do you have to pay to go to the bar? All those questions that you get as people first walk in and then the concession stand. So adding that up, I'd say like eight or nine. And then like I'll be running around, you know, the general managers kind of filling in everywhere to I'll have an arcade floor manager and not necessarily to be like on the floor, but to be those are business units. Right. So they're going to be managing those. How do you pay? Have you thought about that or, you know, quarters, tokens? I'm going to do pay by the hour, pay by the day, pay by the month. Okay. So, yes, you know, you can pay for it. I've been thinking about eight sessions is like the right, like, or eight visits is the equivalent of a one month. And then you can bring a friend twice for free or like little books that you add on to it. Like a membership and every game is on free play. Yeah, every game will be on free play. I will say that one of the hardest decisions, and I have been researching this for months and I feel honestly no more equipped to make this decision now than I did before, is what's the pay-to-play system? Is it RFID? Is it simple Teflon wristbands or Tyvek wristbands? Or is it something else? Is it a card that stays? Is it a wristband? How are you going to do this? And especially early on when we're thinking about this, how do you manage people only playing for one hour? That's you don't care about all day and you don't care about monthly memberships. It's just the people that come in for an hour and you manage that. And wanting to avoid what I have heard consistently is a bad situation to get into. Or if you can avoid it is the tapping customers on the shoulder going, hey, it's time. Time's up. And that type of I just that's not the vibe I want at all either. But I do want to kind of manage that part of it. So I have been doing research on different systems and I have spreadsheets of spreadsheets of different like what's my criteria? What do they offer? And I just really I still don't feel equipped to make the decision. But when I went out to Chicago Expo the last day, I went to a seminar where I can't remember the title of it, but it was basically you want to be an operator like you own a couple of games and you want to be an operator kind of thing. And it was a panel of two guys and a moderator. And the two guys had just like for lack of a kind of little hyperbole, had amassed empires by buying routes and buying arcades and vending and video and vending and arcade. And one guy kind of had that kind of empire and another guy had become a distributor plus routing and stuff like that. And they introduced the concept of the Amusement and Musician Operators Association, AMOA. And one of them was the president, Bob Burnham is currently the president. He was on the panel. And eventually someone asked the question that I had of like, how do you know where to go? Oh, you either have like, you know, incredible hardware costs or fees later on that you have to pay the company. You're talking about like a card system type of thing. Yes, exactly, the RFID system. But, you know, and then there's this question about server architecture. Is it cloud-based? Is it hybrid? Is it local server? All these different things. Like I said, I've been researching it like crazy and I don't feel any better off. But now Bob Burnham, that guy who is the president of the AMOA, we're in contact with each other.
    42:22
    Nice. Because basically someone did say, how do you decide? And they were like, talk to us afterwards because we basically have acquired so many different systems that we can kind of talk you through, maybe steer you towards ones that work for you. But I am talking to Scorbit right now. We'll see this preliminary conversations because their timing and my timing with the Scorbit 2.0 that they're coming out with. I know that Scorbit has like score tracking, right? But does it also include some payment system? Yes. What they rolled out at Chicago Expo is kind of their next generation, which is now incorporating a tap pad and an app on the phone. And you tap in and it works with different types of payment systems, including like the pay by the hour or pay by the day type approach that I want to take. And I like it because one of the ways that I want to really get people or I plan on getting people into this place, I want it to be a pinball players arcade. And I feel like one of the ways to keep people coming in is to have a very full and consistent calendar of events where there's IFPA events and there's non-IFPA events. But there's kind of consistently like a fun tournament on Saturday nights or bells tournament on Thursdays and things like that. And I like the score bait because you can with that platform that they have already, you can set up these kind of running tournaments that are running in the background all month that people are just coming in and contributing to the ante, you know, and contributing to the pot. Having tournaments is great, but you have to have people to run them, too, which is like, you know, and I don't know if I'm going to be able to just, you know, rely on staff to do that or will I bring people in? And I would love to bring people in and expand the culture in the community to include like tournament guest hosts that are there doing their special kind of tournament. Like electric bat dogs, you know, with Chewy's. I can't remember what it's called, but I always hear about it. And I'm like, I want to go, but they're in Arizona. Yeah, well, actually, one thing that we didn't talk about is maintenance, game maintenance. So what are your plans as far as fixing games, keeping them up and running? I know we talked a little bit about, you know, it's important to have these games playing well. Having them play really well is my number one priority for the arcade is growing the reputation of being, you know, a place that has reliably playing games. Because I do have an excess of games, I will have the luxury of if it's a game that needs a longer term repair and the space actually has a storage room as well that we can work on games. I'll be able to swap out games. So that's actually pretty cool. But definitely the arcade manager is going to have to be technically proficient. And then Chris from Cardassi Pinball Services is kind of, even though he's down in Providence, he's kind of acting as an advisor for anything that, you know, anyone on the floor doesn't know what to do. And collectively, we'll figure that out. Hopefully we'll be training people, too. I mean, there's so many things that I want to do with this space, like teach people how to work on their own machines. But I'm glad that you brought up the maintenance, like maintaining the games themselves on the floor is going to be really important. We're going to be refurbishing machines and selling them. So, you know, leaning into that. But my own experience with distributors has been that servicing games, it's been hard to find people. So we've been talking a lot lately about how we can lean into the service department to actually have it be a stand on its own kind of like little business unit where we have enough people on the team to be able to do house calls, to maybe even wrap service packages around the games that we sell, whether they're used or new. But certainly like maintenance for people, you know, 70% of pinball that what are they saying now? 70% of pinball buyers are home buyers. And yeah, a lot of people do know how to work on machines, but a lot of people don't. A lot of people don't. Yeah. So, yeah, that's something that we're really going to lean into and try to stand out as like, if you want to figure out how to get a machine fix you. I actually just talked to a guy out of selling me a Shrek the other day because he said this. Can I slide bar and tell you this story really? Sure, sure. I posted on Facebook Marketplace a Shrek. It's on my wish list, a Shrek for, $47.50. And I was late to the game. Chris kind of made me aware of it. And I reached out to him and I was like, man, I will just pay you $47.50 for that. Cool, cool. So I told the guy, reached out, said, I'm starting an arcade. And he picked me. He said a ton of response. But he said, I love the fact that it would go to an arcade and get played. So we finally get on the phone and we're talking to each other like what's going on with the game. And then he told me that he basically was saying, I don't really know that much about how to fix games. And so I think it's this, but this is what's going on. But I bought this thing in 2008 and my son played it and my son's got the high score. He's telling me all these stories about it. I'm like, Mike, you don't want to sell this game. And he's like, I don't know if I want to sell this game. And I was like, you just need someone to fix for you. And I know someone who now he's in touch with Chris and he's going to get the game fixed. He's going to keep it. And he said, you'll always get right or first refusal. And I was like, you're coming to the grand opening of Tilted Orbit. And I made a friend even though I didn't get a Shrek. But he needed to keep that game. You know, thank you, Amy. Thank you. Here, I want to shake your hand, but I can't. You're awesome. See, this is what we need, man. Like people like you. I swear. I was going to say something to you listening to like all these ideas, all the kind of like the goals that you have, Amy. In like 10 years, dude, I see Amy as like, I don't know, a pinball, like empress.
    47:54
    Seriously, I'm serious because you have so many good ideas, kind of like fully encapsulating pinball and kind of also just growing it as like an interest for, you know, in general. And I think it's awesome. Yeah, it's clear that you've thought about all of the different aspects of pinball and the different ways that you can be of service to the community as it relates to pinball and arcades. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I hope to be, you know, a part of that to some degree. Will be.
    48:20
    So where are we now? December 9th, 2025. How long has it been since you started? I guess a little over a year and a half, I guess, right? Right. And so what's the what's the trajectory? What are we looking at? It's going to be another six months. And that is what I keep saying. I've been saying it for a while. It took a lot longer to get the lease done. But once I got the lease done, it really hinges on the permitting. And the local permitting is just not going to be easy. There's a couple of hoops, a couple of separate steps that I have to jump through. You know if you if you get asked for a variance that all of a sudden introduces something called site plan review and then you get that approval And once they OK with it then you have to go to the zoning board because I changing the use from a grocery store to an arcade with a little bit of nightclub action
    49:07
    So so it's always six months, like because even if it only takes three or four months to get the permits, then you can't start building. You can't do any plumbing. You can't do any electrical until you have your permit. So you get kind of three months of build out. Even in the best case scenario, they're contractors, right? They got a lot of jobs, so they can't just jump on and do it all at once. So that's why it's been like that. But I do have my zoning board application in. And even if they tell us we have to go to site plan review first, the application is pretty much sufficient. They'll tell us how we have to make it perfect. And so I think we'll start that process in January. They do their meetings monthly. So it's this kind of if you miss a meeting, you're missing a whole month, you know, so we can get on the January schedule. And then the other thing is the liquor license. And I submitted in that, like I said, it's a town and a state process. So I submitted to the town. I had some minor things to fix up. I'm going to turn that back in this week. And I'm targeting a January 9th local hearing. And if I get approved in the local hearing, then the town administrator, The licensing coordinator, he packages it up and sends it to the state and kind of is the liaison between me and the state to answer questions. That's typical bureaucracy. It could be three months, it could be four months, it could be six months. But you are on the hook for the lease at this point. Well, I negotiated. I have a really wonderful landlord who my built is a standalone building and where it's located is on a 12 acre property that has been commercially developed by this woman, Cinda Jones, and her brother. It's a family owned property that they've had for a really long time. It has a family business on it, but then she's done this grocery store that I'm now going to repurpose. But around it are three buildings that have commercial on the first floor and residential on the second. It's like 120 residential units. The reason why I brought up this development is that she very strongly felt like there was kind of this missing component. The grocery store had been empty for a little while, so she wanted to fill it, but she felt like an entertainment thing. So she kind of wanted something like I was delivering. So I pitched her a lot on my business plan, but then said, it's all at risk. If I don't get permits, I can't operate. Is there any way I can get a period of time where I don't have to pay rent until I get the permits? And anyway, long story short, in the lease, I ultimately negotiated a period of time where I don't have to pay rent as long as I'm putting reasonable effort towards getting the permits, which she definitely believes that I'm doing. I love her so much. I feel so lucky. She's very excited about it and wants to lean into it and promotes it within this. It's called the Mill District and she promotes all of it and actually have a Cactus Canyon in one of the commercials and a getaway in one of the other commercial shops up there. Oh, nice. That's awesome. Yeah. So that is something like and I've talked to even people that are around me and trying to do something with pinball that just kind of didn't know that you could ask for that in lease negotiation. And so I'm spreading the word like try. Right. Like if they want to be successful, they can give you a leg up. This is not the kind of business where you have necessary a lot of money and time to be able to put into it. It's very risky and it's very low margins. And she was willing she saw the vision. And if you can convince the landlord of the vision and what it's going to bring to the space and the longevity of that, then, you know, get them to buy into your concept and maybe you can get a little like easing up on the lease. So, yeah, ultimately, if you're successful, then it benefits them because they have a long term tenant. I'm going to I'm going to mark that down as a pro tip. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then going back real quick, you said you have to get a like a variance approved with the zoning board because it's currently zoned to be a grocery store. And you want it to be something different. So probably a lot of people don't realize is that every single building, you're going to have a specific kind of function that this building is approved for. That variance process can be pretty involved. You have to put it before the board and you probably have to make sure that none of the surrounding residents or businesses are opposed to the thing that you're trying to do. And yeah, that can be that can be quite a process. A couple of the things involved in that permitting process is, yes, there's a public hearing aspect to it. So eventually we'll have to put a notice in the paper and send letters to all of the butters of the property and ask them to come to the public hearing and talk about why they support it or don't. And what their concerns are, when the board comes up with things that they're concerned about, be prepared with answers or do your best to answer solidly on the fly. And then ask if it can be included in your permit approval as a contingency. So you don't have to go off and come back another month later with your brand new plan. You say, look, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this and this. And I'm going to do the best of my ability to answer this and satisfy the town. Can my permit approval be contingent upon me agreeing to do this? And then they say yes, because they'll give you your permit to go make your changes and then they finally won't approve it if you haven't made them. So they feel protected. So that can save you a month or maybe even more. Yeah. Yeah. Great tip. The whole permitting process has got to be one of the trickiest things for somebody who's never done anything like this before. One of the other things that came up is occupancy. The whole thing with zoning is what is your building set up for in terms of your sprinkler systems or lack of? How many people can you fit in it? And is your new use going to accommodate that? Or are you going to be busting at the seams all the time? And then what does the fire department and the board want you to do to manage that? So with games, some games don't count. Some towns don't count the arcade games as footprint that can't be occupied. So you don't have the benefit. They actually count the floor as occupancy. And then they might say, oh, if you could fit in 150 people, you actually need four bathrooms. Now you have to add two. You know, and so what we did to try to manage that was we fiddled with the size of the bar, kind of extending it out into the space in order to have like less space that was considered customer space and try to manage the occupancy. The town did mention to us that they have some questions. I have a meeting with them on Thursday. And I think it's about like, how are you guys thinking about occupancy? How did you come up with your numbers? And hopefully they agree with us just because managing occupancy can be, you know, do you have someone at the door now that you have to hire to kind of count people going in and out, you know, or can you convince the town that, no, the way this is set up, you really can't fit more than that many people. So as long as we do X, Y, and Z, everybody's covered from a risk perspective. And then I'm sure the town is also concerned about any related traffic and parking and all that stuff is always a big issue with zoning changes. Yeah, they actually did bring up the potential to have to do a traffic study.
    56:19
    Oh, man. Yeah, there's there's a 15 grand. You know, I have a renew. I have a permitting background. I did renewable energy systems, but I do know a little bit about standing in front of boards, but I don't want to like kind of take credit for figuring it all out because I did have the benefit of having a little bit of experience. And also in this town, like you have to submit architectural drawings. So I have an architect advising me on like, oh, if you want to do that, that's going to be a variance. Or if you want to do that, that's going to be a waiver. Oh, yeah. So your best bet is to find a place that you don't have to change the use. Right. Like that. That's the simplest permitting. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like you've got a great space. Every time I go into an arcade, I'm trying to figure out how many square feet it is because I'm like, okay, this place is successful, I think. How much space do they actually have? How many games do they have? How much space is the bar taking up? All those kind of factors are limiting and having a space as large as yours, you're really giving yourself the opportunity to kind of be free. I think that's the way to go if you can pull it off. This space actually has room for expansion, too, which I didn't even know about until I stumbled upon. At one point, a brewery was looking at the space and they had put an extension on for their tanks and the town actually approved it. So usually once a footprint is approved, you could feel confident that you at least could go back and occupy that footprint with more commercial space. So it's a couple thousand square feet. If things are going like gangbusters, you're right. Maybe it will be Amy's, the Empress.
    57:54
    I don't think it's a maybe. I think it's a win. Well, I mean, it really it sounds like you've thought of everything and I'm sure more stuff will come up. I know what it's like having a project. I've been building a music studio for over 10 years. I know what it's like saying, yeah, six more months. I think it's good. Six more months. There's always something that comes up. But it sounds like you've really got a handle on the situation and like you're really close. I really think we are. It's exciting. So I'm excited to go to the grand opening. When can we go? It'll be like six more months. It'll be summertime. You'll love it. It'll be perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Ideal. Ideal. July 4th. Let's make it a travel weekend. Yeah. So one other question just to kind of I think maybe wrap up is once the arcade is going and you guys are up and running, do you have a plan in terms of growing the arcade, growing the community, plans for how to make pinball more inclusive and more understandable to people who are new to it? Sure. And that's something that I really like about your guys's podcast more than anyone, any other podcast that I listen to. One of the aspects that you focus on is, you know, how are you going to bring more people in? So, yeah, I definitely want to have one of my favorite images in pinball is when there's parents standing behind a little kid on a stool, like playing pinball. Like, I want to see that. I can't wait till I buy my little stock of stools and they say tilted or I can't wait. So I'm definitely going to do specific promotions or family tournaments like, you know, somehow where you maybe come and play as a family, you know, or something like that in all ages. And that's something that we've done through the North Pantheon Bells and Chimes 2. My counterpart, Anna, put together a Pinball 101 type thing that we had at Hometown, actually. They hosted us and, yeah, we played on Stranger Things because that's a great game, you know, with the layout. And we just kind of talked about the super basic things and how you play with each other and a little bit into like people were asking what tournaments are like and things like that. So I'm going to do that and specifically do that, like with things on the calendar related to those hours at times when it works for families. I am going to market to all the senior centers in my area and I want them to get their seniors on the bus and bring their bus to my place and have them come in and rediscover or discover the joy of pinball. Because I really believe that like forget the crossword puzzles. Pinball is like so much better for your brain. And I want to have special hours where I'm open for an hour. And, you know, just that it's just seniors so they can not worry about kids running all over the place or whatever. But I really want to try to purposely promote seniors coming. And I'm actually, you know, you see neurodivergent people playing pinball. Well, I often see parent-child teams, and I love that as well. And UMass has a program specifically. And if there was a connection I could make where conditions could be set up, where that would be at all of interest and I could do that, I would definitely love to do dedicated time to something like that as well. That sounds awesome.
    61:18
    Yeah, it's like the senior swim at the pool. All the kids out of the pool. Right, right, right, right.
    61:23
    Yeah, that's a great idea. That's cool. I think you're right about pinball being really good for your brain. Every day, you know, my Google feed is like, you know, some new things like this prevents dementia. You know, no one's studied pinball about preventing dementia, but they have studied pickleball. They studied other things where you're hitting small balls quickly. And it's all about that like quick action and like quick reflexes. And pinball's got that more than just about anything you can think of. I think it's a healthy habit and hobby. It's not a screen. And it's fun and it's exhilarating and it kind of gives you like a little bit of like a rush. There's so many good things about it. I agree. I think that there's a real trend right now towards like more experiences, you know, away from the console and away from the TV and out of the house and out there with other people. And I think Pinball is like this perfect balance where you can go out and hang with friends and then take a little break where you're breaking, But you're breaking up what you're doing to go do something different, right? Especially out here, there's not that much to do where you're not just like you're going to hear music and you can't really talk and hang out or you're just sitting at the bar, right? And offer something in between and it can give you kind of even a longer period. Like it lasts all the way into the evening because you're breaking it up between go get something to eat, go get something to drink and then go play a game. Or you're waiting for that game to be free, you know, because you really play it. But yeah, I just I'm excited that somehow I feel lucky or just grateful that somehow I think I kind of stumbled into this at the time when Pinball's on the rise and this kind of desire is on the rise. I wish the economy was also on the rise, but we'll get back. You know, I just I feel like I'm on the wave at just the right time, though, as Pinball is concerned. Yeah, yeah, I think you are. I think so, too. So, Amy, we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and what you're doing. And I think people are going to be really interested to hear about it. I really can't wait to, you know, six months from now, circle back and see where you're at and, you know, kind of follow along with your progress as you go. It's really exciting. Yeah, keep you guys posted, too. Yeah, Tilted Orbit. And where is it? Amherst, Massachusetts. We're going to check back in, right? Oh yeah, for sure. We're going to check back in with you. I mean, yeah, this isn't a one and done. This is a, we'll be around. Awesome. Yeah, I just want to, I want to know what happens because you have so many plans and so many cool ideas. I'm very curious to see how all this stuff plays out. What works the best, what maybe doesn't work the best. Hopefully it all works amazingly. I'm a big, big, big believer in transparency. Like there's no secret sauce here, right? Like I want other people to be successful. So I'm absolutely willing to share everything. And I so much appreciate your guys' interest. And this has been super fun. Cool. Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much. All right. We'll be there at the grand opening. Bye bye. All right. All right. Thanks, Amy. Bye.
    64:42
    Return to your home. Evacuate all personnel. Thank you.