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Ep 71: Pre Expo Rumors and News

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 4m·analyzed·Oct 23, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Pre-Expo rumor roundup: Jurassic Park home edition, Cactus Canyon details, Queen prototype critique, Haggis success.

Summary

LoserKid Pinball Podcast Episode 71 covers pre-Expo news and rumors, including discussion of Stern's new Jurassic Park Home Pin Edition (affordable $4K entry-level model), Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon remake with Lyman Sheets doing new code, Pinball Brothers' Queen prototype (received critical artwork feedback), Haggis Pinball's successful early production shipments, and brief coverage of Bobby Moulton's SEC investigation and pre-order fraud.

Key Claims

  • Stern has premium machines stuck at Long Beach docks and is pushing back premium delivery dates past January 1st

    medium confidence · Scott Larson speculating on supply chain issues; explicitly stated 'I could be wrong. So it's all speculation.'

  • Cactus Canyon base special edition is priced at $8,000, a $500 increase from Monster Bash special edition at $7,500

    medium confidence · Josh Roop citing rumor; 'the other rumor is...I'm hearing is $8,000'

  • Cactus Canyon will not have a classic edition; the base model will be the special edition with LED display upgrade

    medium confidence · Josh Roop reporting rumor that Chicago Gaming skipped classic edition like prior remakes

  • Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharpe (likely Zach Sharpe) were contracted to write new rules for Cactus Canyon

    high confidence · Josh Roop: 'Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharpe was contracted out to do the rules' with upcoming Super Awesome Pinball Show interview

  • Bobby Moulton (Pinball Brothers founder) was already under SEC investigation when he launched the pre-order campaign

    high confidence · Josh and Scott discussing SEC investigation timeline and pre-order money misuse; confirmed as fraud

  • Haggis Pinball has successfully shipped Kelts and has Fathom remake in production pipeline

    high confidence · Josh Roop: 'Haggis is starting to get games out the door...they got the Kelts out the doors...Fathom's next up'

  • Metal costs have increased 125% in the last four months, significantly impacting pinball manufacturing

    high confidence · Scott Larson speaking from personal manufacturing business experience: 'metal costs for me...has went up one hundred and twenty five percent'

  • Flippin' Out Pinball (Zach Minney) has premium machines on order and is mixing pro/premium shipments (not sequential)

    medium confidence · Josh Roop: 'Rumor has it...Stern is mixing in a little bit of pros and premiums. So it's not just the standard run'

Notable Quotes

  • “License is king right now...License first, design second, code third.”

    Josh Roop @ ~21:00 — Core industry principle that explains manufacturer strategy and constraints; references licensing agreements driving Stern's release schedule

  • “When you sign a contract, the time is ticking. And so [Stern has to fulfill licensee agreements].”

    Josh Roop @ ~20:30 — Explains why Stern is releasing multiple titles rapidly; cites Zach Sharpe's Final Round Pinball interview

  • “I'm not going to put a quarter in it unless you wanted to hear Bohemian Rhapsody.”

    Scott Larson @ ~46:00 — Harsh critique of Pinball Brothers Queen prototype artwork and appeal

  • “The artwork is okay. I'm sorry if I offend anyone or the artist. It is horrendous. It's bad...Freddie Mercury's face just is so lopsided.”

    Scott Larson @ ~45:30 — Specific negative feedback on Queen prototype visual design; expresses concern prototype may not improve

  • “It felt very...it felt like a Gottlieb...it didn't feel anything that would make you want to put a quarter in it.”

    Scott Larson @ ~45:00 — Criticism that Queen prototype lacks visual appeal and modern market positioning

  • “Total dirtbag, total artist, total narcissist. And We Are Pinball Bob Betor for not having him in the Industry.”

    Josh Roop @ ~52:00 — Strong community condemnation of Bobby Moulton's fraud and SEC violations

  • “If you're willing to spend a certain price for a certain product, then that's what they're going to tailor.”

    Josh Roop @ ~10:30 — Market research defense of Stern's pricing strategy and product tiering

  • “These games really aren't made for us, they're made for a different market.”

    Josh Roop @ ~14:30 — Explanation that home pin editions target casual/family market, not pinball enthusiasts

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonZach MinneypersonJack DangerpersonLyman SheetspersonZach SharpepersonKeith ElwinpersonBobby Moultonperson

Signals

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Premium Stern machines reported stuck at Long Beach docks with delivery pushed past January 1st; shipping delays affecting distributor inventory

    medium · Scott Larson: 'bunch of premium stuff sitting on the dock out in the harbor. And they're pushing back premiums already past the first of the year. But I could be wrong.'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Metal component costs increased 125% in last 4 months, significantly impacting pinball manufacturing; lumber prices also volatile but less impactful

    high · Scott Larson from metal fabrication business: 'metal costs for me before it hits the customer has went up one hundred and twenty five percent in the Last Arcade four months'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern introducing Jurassic Park Home Pin Edition at $4K price point to target casual/family market distinct from traditional pinball enthusiast collector base

    high · Josh Roop: 'this is intended for a game room...the guy or the girl or the family who's making their family game room' vs pro/premium/LE tiers for different demographics

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern rapidly releasing multiple licensed titles because licensing agreements have time windows; licensor satisfaction is primary driver of release cadence, not enthusiast demand

    high · Josh Roop citing Zach Sharpe's Final Round interview: 'they have an agreement with these licensors that they will get their product out in a certain time frame. Time's ticking.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Cactus Canyon base special edition rumored at $8,000 (+$500 from Monster Bash); no classic edition; special edition has LED display; limited edition includes topper; Lyman Sheets doing new code

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.192

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. This is episode 71. I'm your host as always, Josh Roop, with me, my co-captain, Scott Larson. I almost did that backwards. I almost said, I'm your co-captain, Josh Roop, with your host as always. You could be the co-captain today. Maybe I could be the host today. True. That wouldn't be bad. And usually I'm the Ed McManty or Johnny Carson. and uh someone just messaged us today and they're like how do you get rid of all 21 sponsors that you had okay so in fairness we actually we still are friends with all these people but a lot of people said you know we just kind of fast forward past that stuff so um we are still we're still willing to focus on people and to spotlight people um still uh love brad from lit frames and if you have a trans flight you want to illuminate, reach out to him. He lives near the Chicago area, so if you're heading out to Expo, I'm sure you can figure something out. But as always,
1:07
flipping out pinball if you're looking for that new machine. And I know it's hard to dig up supply right now, but Zach and Nicole will always do their best to find that machine for you. Either a new game or even that grail that you just haven't been able to find yourself. They also have a deal with Raw Thrills, so if you want to get that Jurassic Park environmental, go ahead and buy that and put that in the garage. You don't need a car.
1:33
But definitely check out Zack and Nicole. And I also have a premium ordered, and we'll see when we get those in. So we're excited to get those out. Rumor has it they have I know they've started shipping the LEs. Pros are already out on location.
1:51
And they're mixing in a little bit of pros and premiums. So it's not just the standard run of pros and then the premiums at the end. I think that's a good move by Stern. Yeah. Well, but the other problem I've heard too, though, is a bunch of premium stuff sitting on the dock out in the harbor. And they're pushing back premiums already past the first of the year. But I could be wrong. So it's all speculation. But it doesn't surprise me. I mean, this is nothing new for anybody who lives in America, is that there are stories about cargo freights that are sitting off of Long Beach. And this is the world we live in. So we're still dealing with shortages. So if you are interested, get on the list, because that's the best way to make sure that you have one on order. You can't. It's harder to do an impulse buy in today's day and age. yes it was nice even was it even last year was the year before you just call up zach and be like what you got in stock yeah he still has stock he saw he has little but he has stock he has a few i talked to him recently he had a avengers pros and i think he had some um he had some others too but i mean avengers pro is still a great game if you if you want to get that and you can sneak that in at the early price so anyway good times so uh josh uh expo is coming up but uh let's talk about the the news what's coming up you know it's been a while since we've talked about the news um we had our keith l1 episode and then uh before that we pretty much had an episode dedicated to the reveal of godzilla and so before that was joe cam and cal so we really haven't talked news for a little bit not too much so and so i was going back over the stuff that we haven't really talked about there's there was quite a handful of things that happened the last month to month and a half it's kind of crazy what has happened outside of even just stern reveals which which is crazy because stern revealed another pinball machine since we've talked about godzilla which is crazy in my opinion so you know it's not crazy i think it makes sense yeah um and uh we're obviously talking about the Jurassic Park Home Pin Edition that was designed by Jack Danger and the people at Stern. So I'm sure he had some help there. But hey, it looks fun. I do find it funny, and people have brought this up, that it's under the affordable pins, which by inference says that our other pins aren't affordable. But the bottom line is this is intended for a game room, like a home room. um it's uh i guess the target audience is the guy or the girl or the family who's making their family game room and they they want a pool table and they want a foosball table and they want a pinball machine and it's still pretty steep it's still in the 4 000 range but it's still different than like a six or eight thousand or nine thousand game yeah so that there's that They are targeting that audience is what's going on. Do you think because people talk about how a Stern Pro five years ago, six years ago was about this price, the forty six hundred. Do you think the pin they're going to start producing more of those? And this is what's going to be the quote unquote pro option at this point, even though it's not part of a larger series of pinball machines or quarter store cornerstones? Well, OK, the by definition, I would say not the pro because pro implies. implies or at least the that implies that you can use it in a professional setting right so true yeah and so by pro i would say the definition of having a pro game would be a coin mech and an ability to put on location to make money on it yeah however it has become a little more of that entry level. And in the, you know, in the 2000s, there was all these cost cutting measures. I mean, you look at a lot of those games and they were pretty sparse. I had an Iron Man and it was fun. But if you compare all the stuff on Iron Man versus what they're making now, even Tron really, and Tron is a good game, but it's, it's not as packed as what they have now. Yeah. So this, This is certainly in the era of, hey, if you want something that's a little more scaled back, then – I don't like the term stripped down, but you can say scaled back because the game looks fun. I would say the game looks fun. What do you think? No, I agree. I think that this is very comparable to a 2000 Stern. Everyone's complaining that the price is going up, yet have you seen Sterns lately? They're pretty packed. So the only logical explanation is if you're going to compare them to a 2000 Stern, then you better put out a pinball machine that's like a 2000 Stern. So here you go. Well, the challenge, too, is there is inflation. Yeah. And I'm going to set the Wayback Machine to 1980 something. and when I was a kid and homesick and watched the Price is Right every single car on the Price is Right was under $10,000 and it was a big deal when they brought out the one because it was, ooh, this is above a $10,000 car sorry, did I say pinned? I mean car so every car was around $7,000 to $8,000 well, you know that cars aren't that price now So this is 40 years later. Well, OK, so but now cars and trucks typically are 60,000, 70,000 dollars. Yeah. So you're going to get inflation. You're going to get an elevation of prices. And the bottom line is they are a business. This isn't a charity. And so Stern's going to target and find that I'm sure they've done market research to find what people want. And if people are willing to spend a certain price for a certain product, then that's what they're going to tailor.
George Gomez
person
Martin Robbinsperson
Tom Caperaperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Chicago Gamingcompany
Haggis Pinballcompany
Pinball Brotherscompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Deep Root Pinballcompany
Final Round Pinballorganization
Super Awesome Pinball Showorganization
Jurassic Park Home Pin Editiongame
Cactus Canyongame
Queengame
Fathomgame

medium · Josh Roop: 'the other rumor is...the base for the special edition...I'm hearing is $8,000, which would be a $500 increase'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Haggis Pinball (Australian startup) successfully shipping Kelts machines with positive customer feedback; Fathom remake next; overcoming supply chain constraints despite Australia lockdowns

    high · Josh Roop: 'Haggis is starting to get games out the door...they got the Kelts out the doors...I'm hearing positive from everyone that's received their game'

  • ?

    product_concern: Pinball Brothers Queen prototype received harsh artwork critique; Freddie Mercury caricature described as lopsided and unappealing; color scheme and layout felt dated (Gottlieb-style); only prototype display version

    high · Scott Larson: 'Freddie Mercury's face just is so lopsided...the artwork is okay...It is horrendous...it didn't feel anything that would make you want to put a quarter in it'

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Bobby Moulton (Pinball Brothers founder) under SEC investigation for misappropriating pre-order funds; launched pre-order campaign while already under investigation; described as fraud/scam

    high · Josh Roop: 'Bobby...the SEC has been investigating him...he still took More Brewing Company mate/man...Total dirtbag, total artist, total narcissist'

  • ?

    event_signal: Episode is preview of upcoming pinball expo with focus on playable machines; Cactus Canyon, Queen prototype, and Haggis games expected at show; hosts planning hands-on assessments

    high · Josh Roop: 'this is a preview of Expo, all the things we're looking forward to at Expo' and multiple references to 'we're going to play it at Expo'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Queen prototype artwork/color scheme/caricatures all require licensor approval; hosts acknowledge licensor may have rejected better design options; artwork criticism may reflect licensor preferences not designer intent

    high · Josh Roop: 'when you talk about...caricatures or illustrations that all has to be approved by them [licensor]...the licensor has to sign off on it'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheets (legendary code designer) contracted specifically to recode classic 1990s Cactus Canyon; strategic hire to modernize gameplay and rules of original George Gomez design

    high · Josh Roop: 'Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharpe was contracted out to do the rules...Who would you get to recode a 90s game? And Lyman is the guy you want to do that'

  • ?

    business_signal: Bobby Moulton/Pinball Brothers cited as example of startup failure due to fraud; community sentiment strongly negative; hope industry moves on and does not engage further

    high · Josh Roop: 'We Are Pinball Bob Betor for not having him in the Industry. And I hope we never hear from him ever again'

    • 8:03
    But you also have people who are not really interested in an over $10,000 machine, but they still want the experience of having a pinball machine.
    8:16
    Well, and someone pointed out to me recently that, well, Woods went down. You know, wood was a two by four by eight was almost 10 bucks six months ago. Now it's down to three fifty four dollars. That's great. But the problem is, is I'm I'm in the business of metal. I don't know if anyone knows that. And metal costs for me before it hits the customer has went up one hundred and twenty five percent in the last four months. And there is a lot of metal on a pinball machine. So just it's hard. It's hard. Well, they have factories. They have a giant assembly line. They have designers. They have, there's research and development. There's everything that goes into it. And so for it to, I don't know. I actually think it's fine. The price, I don't have a problem with it because if the price is too high, I realized long ago that the mistake people make is assuming that their price point is the price point for everybody. Yeah. Because I'm Josh. Do you own a, do you own a Tesla? like an X with those fancy doors. Oh no, no, but I see them all over. Okay. It's not my car. I, I, I, I, as of yet have never purchased a hundred thousand dollar car. Um, the most it's been is like around 50. Uh, but you know, that's, that is my, that is my price point. But I also understand that, you know, a pro is a price point for someone, a premium was a price point for someone and i my buddy is on the i want every le list i'm not on that list yeah but that's his price point so i don't know i i'm okay with it because it doesn't feel like it's a stripped down model it just feels like a scaled back model yeah so i i'm excited to play it at expo so we'll certainly do some uh do some flips on it um how okay who sells these machines josh um well we do know that distributors have to sell a couple right like that's like that's they take their standard allotment and yes and they can order over the top like on top of that um i guess one challenge that people can have is that i don't think you're going to sell these to your standard pinball enthusiast. Yeah. Um, I would say your standard pinball enthusiast for $4,500 is probably going to be looking at either, um, ponying up the extra thousand dollars and getting a pro, or they're looking at the used market for, um, you know, for like a fish tails or something. Yeah. Um, I, I don't see too many people buying these machines, But I would be curious if anyone's listening and they have experience ordering these home pin editions, whether or not Spider-Man or if you're interested in the Jurassic Park one or you got the Star Wars one, reach out. We have a good friend who has the Star Wars home edition. He loves it. So I'm just curious to see who else buys these. But I don't tend – I tend not to think it's the pinball enthusiast market. Once again, it's just another avenue for Stern to explore. I know that people were complaining about, well, they already can't get to the Mandalorians and they can't get to the Godzillas that they have and all the back order that they have. If you guys listen to if you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend it. Go to the Final Round Pinball podcast with the interview with Zach Sharp.
    11:54
    And he said he said that they have an agreement with these licensors that they will get their product out in a certain time frame.
    12:03
    Time's ticking. When you sign a contract, the time is ticking. And so. And I don't know. I don't know what the agreement was because COVID did throw a wrench in everything. It's still throwing a wrench in everything. Yeah.
    12:16
    And I mean, you can go further down the rabbit hole on that discussion, but I prefer not to. But I think that they're doing out of necessity what they have to do as the agreement with their licensors. And honestly, that's what keeps them alive. We've talked about license is king right now, right? Yeah. License first. design second code third you could probably even interchange those after walking dead proved but you just you have to keep the licensors happy and so like i said if you haven't checked it out go check out final rounds most recent episode with with zach sharp very insightful i actually only saw or only heard i can either confirm nor deny once i think throughout the whole thing so he was pretty open on it he was really good and well they were also asking questions that they knew they could ask and they didn't say hey what are the next five releases um and so that uh that makes it a little easier when you're not treading into dangerous territory but they it is interesting seeing it from their standpoint and occasionally we'll say something and we'll get some feedback and they'll say yeah well a lot of it a lot of it's licensing so just keep that in mind that there's the enthusiast who wants x y and z but the licensor doesn't give you x y and z so or there's too many too many to sign off on it and they just they're waiting you know it r2d2 topper right yeah uh now with this um does it help or hurt jack that he is going against the keith ellwin design i don't think it hurts him one bit originally i did i originally thought you know he's going up against a game that's considered a classic and his rank is ranked very high on the pin side i think it's number two right now yeah um but then again like it's been said in the past these games really aren't made for us they're made for a different market and i think if you're buying a pinball machine at this cost you're not going to be doing it based off of game design and code and all that jazz. So I don't know. I think it actually played into Dangerous' favor, and the reason being is they had a fully-fledged game. Like, Stern didn't have to spend a ton on artwork because they reused some of the artwork, just kind of rearranged it.
    14:44
    I mean, you've already got all the animations there. It's the reuse of the animation, the same sounds. There might be some added. I'm not for sure. But I mean, really, your bomb on this was probably a little more flexible, even though the price was brought way down. But it's because a lot of the assets were already there. They were just kind of reusing what they already had. And I don't know what the agreement with the licensor is. You're still paying for assets. Yeah, you're still paying for assets. If you put a sticker on Lunchbox, you're still paying for the assets. Correct. But if you're only paying to design. It could have been a rate. And I bet they probably talked with the licensor about having a lower-priced option, a scaled-back option, and they probably scaled back the licensing. This is me speculating. Scaled back the licensing appropriately to fit into the cost. Yeah, I agree. So I'm really interested to play it, and I think there is a market for this.
    15:45
    Okay, this is my guess. I would be surprised. I doubt people who listen to pinball podcasts are going to buy it. I agree. But that doesn't mean it's a bad game. It just means it for a different market Might as well Hey Stern wouldn be making these if there wasn money there to be made So obviously they know something we don Well this is going along with when they started doing the pro premium in LE that they were it the three approach of having the collector or the home enthusiast or the bar and you have something for everybody. And it's the same thing as cars. You're going to have cars.
    16:33
    If you look at a truck, go and try to buy a truck. And you have like a basic truck that, hey, we are hauling air conditioners. We do not need all the fancy bells and whistles. And then you get the guys who want all the bells and whistles and they're willing to pay three times as much for a truck because they want all that. Yep. Same thing with pinball. So I want to move on. I want to move on to Cactus Canyon. I think because honestly, at this point, it's we're going to play at Expo and then probably get our thoughts. Yeah. Let's move on to Cactus Canyon, which we're probably going to play at Expo and then give our thoughts. Yeah, we'll get a lot of this is a preview of Expo, all the things we're looking forward to at Expo. So since we talked last about Cactus Canyon because it was just a slide on a piece of white sheet at some convention a month and a half ago, we didn't know everything that we know today we're still going to get more uh as far as i'm aware there's still an interview coming out with super awesome pinball show with lyman and josh sharp um i heard it's pretty good it gets pretty in depth on some stuff and some stuff they can't talk about at all so i'm i'm looking forward to hearing that i bet it's going to be great the thing is what i uh well the information that was unveiled to us since the the slideshow was Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp was contracted out to do the rules. We do know that there is new, I don't know if I want to say new artwork, but artists have been brought in to revise the artwork.
    18:04
    Correct. And then the rumor is there's not going to be a classic edition like there was with the Medieval Madness, with the Monster Bash, and Attack from Mars. They're automatically, the base one, it's going to be the special edition, which is the one with the upgraded led display right and then they'll have the limited edition which will be obviously the limited edition which will come with a topper supposedly the toppers interactive looks great um my other understanding we haven't seen it by the way like this is all um this has all been speculation but rumor well besides the lime and sheet stuff and and uh no no the lime I'm just saying with the topper and everything. But that's been the longstanding rumor that they're making sure that it's all set. And you can certainly say that Chicago Gaming, they don't release a game until it is 100%. And they haven't missed on any games.
    19:03
    Well, and the other rumor is, so when Monster Bash came out two years ago, three years ago? Is that where we're at right now? About that, yeah. Holy crap. When it came out, the special edition was $7,500. Correct me if I'm wrong. And then the limited edition was $8,300. That was MSRP, if I remember correctly. That sounds about right. I know I got a limited edition and I paid $8,300. But I don't know if that was MSRP or whatnot. Anywho, the base for the special edition, so that would be the basic edition right now, I'm hearing is $8,000, which would be a $500 increase. It wouldn't shock me. I think it's predictable with the demand that is going on out there. If they can charge more for their product, they will. They lower prices when they're trying to move product. They don't have to lower prices right now. I agree. So I'm really looking forward to this. I haven't, I'm, I'm interested to see what the new code does for it. The layout for, for Cactus Canyon, it's never been amazing for me. And it always has fallen into that big bang bar category where it's rare. It's expensive because it's rare, not necessarily expensive because it's great in, in my limited knowledge of it. However, if, well, Now we know that Lyman is retooling, and we suspected that for a long time. I think we even floated that as a speculation that who would you get to recode a 90s game? And Lyman is the guy you want to do that.
    20:53
    So it'll be interesting to see how that actually takes it to the next level. But I do know two people who are interested in getting it, and they're on that waiting list. and even one person selling his indiana jones which he loves to get that game wow that's impressive yeah it's it's the good one it's the the pinball adventure so man i got some time in on that a couple weeks ago it's it is a good game it's a fun game it's uh it's certainly a nostalgic game but i think it's the nostalgic game that holds up like it's still fun uh it's campy. It's not the same as a modern game. And when I say modern, I mean, in the last 10 years, but it, uh, it's still, you know, I, I will play it when I go over to his house. So do you, what are you looking for with, uh, are we not really looking for anything for cactus Canyon? We're just kind of waiting to see what happens at expo. I want to see what the topper is. Yeah, I agree. That's really what, cause, um, I'm wondering how they're going to take it to the next level. Um, medieval madness attack from Mars monster bash, These were all well-proven good shooting games. But then this one does not have the same sort of volume that the other ones did. So I'm curious to see how it's going to hold up when you have more availability on it. Because the designer on it is, I always have to look it up every time. but I believe that's their only game. Yeah. But they were with Williams for a while. I mean, they still help. They still help with stuff at Stern too. Okay. So, um, the game design is, uh, okay. I, I really am sorry about this. Matt Coriel and, uh, Tom Capera. Yeah. He's the gentleman that still works on Stern stuff, which is fine. But how many other games have they designed? I mean, he has worked in the Mandalorian. He's worked in house of horrors. He's worked on Game of Thrones, but it's not – and that's Tom, by the way. That's not the primary designer.
    23:03
    And so that's where I'm a little more cautious just because it doesn't have the same sort of – well, it's a George Gomez design that didn't get the light of day, and so he's moved on. But George has a track record of designing great games.
    23:21
    And by the way, I don't mean that to be a slight. It's just more of a – there's less games to compare it to. I'm excited to see it at Expo. I want to see what they've done with the code. I'm excited. It's a good time to be in pinball, that's definitely for sure. Yes, absolutely. Okay, one machine I want to talk about that I'm just going to be up front right now. I was not impressed with. The new Pinball Brothers Queen that came out. and i know it was just for show because no one can play it it's just a display you can look at it yeah it's got the magic girl treatment at this point let's call it that oh see i don't think that's true i think what it looks like is magic girl looked really good well no that's what i'm saying is it's in the state of what magic girl was when it was a box of lights okay correct it's a box lights. No, it's the artwork. Okay. The artwork is okay. I'm sorry if I offend anyone or the artist. It is horrendous. It's bad. Well, I wouldn't say horrendous, but what I will say is it felt like a Gottlieb. Like the, the color scheme and the layout is it, it felt very, um, and I, I, Hey, I hope I'm wrong. Every time I get these negative thoughts, I hope I'm wrong, but it didn't feel anything that would make you want to put a quarter in it i don't want to put a quarter in it unless you wanted to hear bohemian rhapsody well i want to play the game the layout looks good i'll give it that the layout looks decent looks like something that can flip it's definitely above other games that um that i've seen but the artwork's just rough like freddie mercury's face just is so lopsided and i mean there's this still has a long ways to go uh obviously, you know, playing it and seeing the code and whatnot. If it's similar to Monster Bash, hey, I love Monster Bash code. It's a good code set. So that's where they're going with it. Again, I hope it's good, and I hope the visual of it is not overwhelmingly positive.
    25:31
    But, you know, that's also – it's a prototype, so things can change, and everybody has their own taste on what works well. I don't know as a musician there's just some stuff on here that just looks bad to me like the guitar upper play fill just looks bad like it doesn't look like a guitar it just yeah I don't know it just the game itself doesn't look great yeah I think that you're uh you're definitely selling off the queen name uh the playability but well and why why go with basic I get it's queen's logo but why not use the queen's logo with the crown on it or there's other more iconic logos But if you look at the side of this cabinet, it's just kind of an orange. It's like a yellow to orange scale crowd with just Queen across it. It's just – it's not fantastic. Like I don't know what the thought process was here. I don't make pinball machines. People – I've done podcasting for almost three years now on pinball. I've never worked in an industry that – I've never worked behind the scenes. So I'm just – like I said, I probably couldn't do a better pinball machine myself. Maybe I should take up the challenge. Okay, but you're also not selling it. It's fair to give a critique on something when someone is putting it out there as a product. Yeah. So you don't have to be a car manufacturer to evaluate your car and whether or not you want to buy it. But I've seen homebrews that are better than looking than this thing. Yeah.
    27:03
    Okay, remember the caveat. it always comes down to what the licensor wants so with the image of the way it looks uh you can talk about the flow you can talk about the layout but when you talk about what uh what color scheme and even what uh caricatures or or illustrations that all has to be approved by them so yeah i i i I just I give that a squint eye when I see what is produced and say, well, I wouldn't have done that, but maybe they wouldn't have done that either. Yeah. So that could be completely up to the licensor. And really, the licensor has to sign off on it. True.
    27:49
    So but I will say it looked pretty basic and it didn't look that interesting. That's that is a great explanation. I will take that. Yeah. So we will not see this at Expo because I know that I'm not flying to England to the Queen's store. So, yes. And so my understanding was this is just the prototype, but we will be seeing more of it being produced here within the year. Well, not not 2021, but 2022, May early 2023. So we'll see what happens there. But overall, not a great first impression, in my opinion. No.
    28:23
    Next, let's talk about this next note. Haggis is starting to get games out the door. I'm excited for this. Like, our boy Martin Robbins doing some code, and they got the Kelts out the doors, and they're saying their fathom's next up to bat. So they're trying to get over some of the hiccups and hurdles of manufacturing and whatnot. And I'm hearing positive from everyone that's received their game so far. So what you're saying is a startup company with very limited manufacturing experience can still get a game out. Yeah.
    28:56
    Interesting, huh? Yeah, weird, huh? Congratulations, especially with all the starting up a pinball company with all the supply shortages and especially with how locked down Australia is. That is a huge plus for them. And so that tells me they are doing something right. It renews faith in me. I'm not I didn't lose faith in Haggis, but like it makes you nervous when you hear stuff like Deep Root and whatnot. Being a startup company and then not fulfilling promises and then falling by the wayside. I mean, it's happened time and time again in the pinball hobby industry. You know, look at Dutch, which they're starting to come back. You've got Highway. Granted, some of those licensings and rights have went to other companies, but still, it's refreshing to hear a startup company take responsibility for hiccups, for delays.
    29:50
    And still then a week or two later showing, hey, we are actually producing product. This is what we're working on. Their product looks fantastic. I seriously cannot wait to see a Haggis game at Expo to play it. I want to get my hands on one of these and see if they're worth it. I definitely want to see what their Fathom remake is, and I'm hoping they have one there. I agree. Heck, I'm even excited to see Kelts. I know a lot of people are like, it's just a single-level game and whatnot. But hey, some of those games are fantastic. Those Beatles, and I just bought it. Yeah. So, speaking of other companies that announce stuff and then never actually produced a dang thing. So, let's talk about Bobby.
    30:36
    Let's keep this under five minutes. So, the SEC has been investigating him. and it sounds like even after they it was well known that they were investigating him by bobby he still took more money and he still spent it it sounds like all of it so i want to pause you there because i think so what i think is reading the article the sec had already concluded their investigation originally and was like they were in the we're trying to bundle this up in a nice package with a bow yeah and then that's when bobby muller's went for the pre-order money so he already knew he was under an investigation and went to the pinball community and was like oh by the way we're doing pre-orders yeah that's that's what i think this is the money that they're talking about because he took it claimed it was like another eight million dollars that would be yeah exactly the pre-order money. Bottom line, total dirtbag, total con artist, total narcissist. And we are better for not having him in the industry. And I hope we never hear from him ever again. And I feel sorry for everybody who has lost money with them and everybody who, even people, I don't understand it but even people who gave him money on the hope that he going to produce something I still have something for you I think it was risky and I would not have made that move But I understand if people feel that that was a calculated risk and they decided to take it But he obviously played everybody as fools to facilitate his extravagant lifestyle and his two weddings and one divorce which I still think is just unbelievable but you know good let's uh uh white flush move on yep um i just want to thank blueberry johnson for all the information he has been keeping up on this i don't know if there's an employee that did work at deep root and just i don't know who this guy is that or somebody who who got involved or just has i mean he is on this he or she i guess i don't know blueberries a boy or girl so Yeah. I guess when you think of blueberries, though.
    32:55
    Wow. But I just, I guess the hard part I know of just all this is we have the hobby itself or industry itself has taken a hit because of this whole situation. I don't think the actual industry at large has, but there's some people that have been tied up in this that have really burned their reputation. And I feel bad for those. Well, and I think he used them as human shields. Great example. I mean, he and even Jeff DeOles has talked about it. They hired Jeff to do some voices and they hired Steve Bowden. And it's still in my opinion that they hired Steve Bowden because he is well liked in the industry and everybody likes Steve. and so he leveraged Steve's good name to hide his sketchitude and it's the same thing with Jeff so he was able to pick his shots I don't believe they were they I don't believe they were really involved in any of the behind the scenes things I think they were contract workers but that's it's sad that they even are associated with his name because I know they would go back and probably not want to be associated at all with him either. Well, and even the article that came out with This Week in Pinball stating pretty much, you know, disassociating themselves from Deep Root. I mean, that was a really good non-biased, in my opinion,
    34:28
    piece of media work that you could deal with. And obviously, there's bias that creeps into any type of media. I can't say that they were 100% unbiased. But, you know, Jeff had stated And his when he was leaving or putting Twip on a hiatus or doing less with it, one of the reasons was because of all of this. Yeah, because he he was he was involved with Robert. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he was he kind of was the mouthpiece. I mean, look at all the articles he did for Deep Root.
    34:55
    I mean, he he's in my opinion, that's where a lot of the the professionalism and the authenticity came from was because you're getting these articles of of Deep Root and the factory walkthroughs. And all the little tidbits were coming from that away. And so.
    35:10
    But again, he he leveraged just Jeff, too. So, again, this is what con artists do. They they will throw everybody else in the water when the sharks are coming. Speaking of Patterson, let's go on another tangent. I just I want to throw this out here. You know, we're hearing less and less from this week in pinball. We are hearing from some of the deep dives, which are still fantastic. Thanks, Patterson, for that. But do you think we still see this – not this week – the Twippies? Do you think we still see the awards, or do you think that's too much of a financial drain on Patterson or maybe even too much of a time taker from Patterson that we don't see this anymore? Or is it far enough off the ground that it kind of takes care of itself? You just click the button and go. No, I think it will change. so I think you'll see something different next year it may or may not happen if it happens it's going to be in a different way and the Twippies are basically the people's choice awards for pinball and so if you get enough and this is how award shows work you try to campaign for votes and you try to get things going on I'm not sure in what venue it is because that was really part of his this week in pinball yeah that's what twip stands for uh so is it possible that it could reinvent or be revamped maybe but i'm i'm holding out i i hope it is but i don't i don't know how he does that unless he continues this week in pinball Dang it, and I had a foolproof plan to win the Twippy this year Because I know, Scott, you said that you're only doing this for the awards now After winning the pinball award Yeah, I'm doing it for greatness and glory That's all I'm doing it for, absolutely Notoriety Well, we wish Patterson the best We'll see what happens with Twippies I mean, we should be knowing soon Pre-voting usually starts at the beginning of December so that way he knows who to put on the list for beginning of january i think it'll be different but i actually wouldn't be surprised if there's a hiatus i think that's what i think it's going to be a hiatus moving on ap is releasing a new pinball machine at expo that's the rumor yeah uh by time this is out it probably already be unveiled because they're doing it at jack bar and uh what was the other location there was another uh bang back yeah it's not official as of just yet but what we're hearing is legends of alhalla you've probably already seen it by time this comes out yeah uh it's i'm really excited to play this uh i have a friend who's who was involved um with the development of the um well it's tony uh who wasn't who was involved in the development of the homebrew and it's it had enough uh following and it's a good game so i'm curious to see what they can do. And it is, it's theme-y enough that I, you know, theme adjacent, I guess, that you can do this without paying a licensing fee. So I think it's a good move for them. And there was enough goodwill for people who were able to play this homebrew. I think it would be a good game for American Pinball because they're not dealing in stern numbers.
    38:45
    I just want to know why it took so long. So Riot Pinball had this out and playing and flipping. Buffalo Pinball showed it last year. Yes. Same with Straight Down the Middle. So if this is American Pinball's next game, why did it take a year? I hope there's some kind of explanation there. Well, I think what it is is there is a big difference between a homebrew and something that is ready for manufacturing.
    39:15
    True. So you can do something that is a one-off that you can build yourself, but there is a mass production component to things, and making sure that's done right takes time. So you have to do all the correct licensing and the testing on it so you can get certified. So there's all that that goes on with this. And so I'm not surprised it takes that long to make sure that it's done. I think about something like Cactus Canyon or Attack from Mars. All those games were done. And it still took Chicago Gaming a while to pretty them up and release them. So that doesn't surprise me. I would rather someone take more time and get it right than just releasing it before it's due. Yep. Good point. I'm excited for this game, though. It looks fun. It looks like a great...
    40:22
    Man, I don't want to insult it. It doesn't have a lot of the bells and whistles that Godzilla would have or any machine from either JJP or Stern, because they're going to have something that's really cool mech-wise in there. So this is not going to have that. But it will have good flow, or it could have good flow, I guess. And if it has good code behind it, then I think that they will find a market for this. Yeah, I agree. More pinball is always good pinball, and obviously we'll be able to play it here at Expo. And American pinball, I would argue that American pinball has a decent reputation. I don't know too many. I haven't heard of people buying American pinball machines and then saying, well, they're broken down all the time or they're unreliable. I think people haven't been – some designs haven't – well, I guess some themes really haven't connected with people. But I don't know of anybody who said, well, it was a terrible machine. They just said it wasn't for them. So I'm really curious to see. This is a good step for American Pinball. Yep.
    41:34
    If you remember with Rob Burke, when we were talking to him back in April – holy crap, that was forever ago. We were talking about Expo. it was april or may and uh he said by this time he said at expo they'd be revealing four new games at least four new games from four distributors so stern's released two uh cgc's with cactus canyon american pinball with legends of valhalla there's four games already so yeah and and i would say that it's close enough that you could say even with godzilla there um it'll be the godzilla show that every every show has one game that seems to be featured and godzilla is going to rule this thing so is it godzilla or do you think because the other rumor right now we're hearing all these rumors guns or not guns roses sorry we're hearing that Jersey Jack Pinball will be unveiling Toy Story at Expo as well. And on top of that, they officially announced that they had hired another designer, Mark Sedan. I don't know if you've watched his stuff on Facebook or on YouTube. He did the Metroid homebrew, which looks fantastic. Man, after my own heart, I love me some Metroid. And the other rumor going around is this is Pat Lawler's last official game with JJP, and he will go into retirement mode. Whether he stays in the background and helps as more like a Gomez, we don't know. But that is the other rumor floating around at this point. So what are your thoughts on that, Scott?
    43:11
    Toy Story will come out. I don't think it'll be announced at Expo. I think they're still too far behind on Guns N' Roses. I actually just played a Guns N' Roses last night. I helped my friend unbox his Guns N' Roses, and we played it. And so they are just still getting through Guns N' Roses.
    43:35
    Now, I know that flies in the face of what we talked about with Stern, and there are timelines to the licenses. So is it possible that they could get pressure from the license to release it sooner than later?
    43:52
    Yes. However, if you look at the track record of Stern versus the track record of JJP, this track record of Stern is three cornerstones and a bonus. So whether or not that's a premium or a home pin. So Stern basically has four options every year. JJP has one option every two years.
    44:14
    And Guns N' Roses was announced last year, and they seem to be ramping up with production. But I would be shocked if they actually released Toy Story just because there doesn't seem to be any build-up buzz. And do you want to go against all these other four games that are coming out? I think it would be bad. But Christmas is coming up, though, and that's a good family pin. So it's the worst-kept secret other than J.J.P. was making Guns N' Roses is that they're making Toy Story. I would not shock me I know it would shock you but it would not shock me And the reason being Expo is like their bread and butter For reveals October 2020 We saw Guns N' Roses It wasn't at Expo but then again Expo was virtual So there is that The Expo before that 2019 We saw Wonka That's the year that we started podcasting We did the show with Martin on that on head to head. And the year before that in 2018 was Jersey Jack's pirates of the Caribbean. And he was the year before that, but I know they've been consistent for almost every year. Now they've released a pinball machine at expo.
    45:33
    So, but okay. But the differences on this is that the sales on guns and roses are still strong. Yeah. The sales on the other ones were tailing off. Yeah. With, With Pirates, they actually showed that too early when it wasn't ready, and it definitely affected their sales.
    45:56
    Wonka didn't seem to be a huge seller. I know they're in Dialed In didn't seem to be a huge seller either. And so their most produced pin up to this point has been Wizard of Oz, but I would anticipate that Guns N' Roses will surpass that. I still think that they're going to release. And the reason being is they're producing Wonkas right now. Okay. Their other line is producing a game that, like, if it was Guns N' Roses and sales are still super strong, they'd have both lines producing Guns N' Roses. And granted, that means you have to have all the parts and yada, yada, yada, et cetera, et cetera. But I strongly feel like Toy Story is going to be shown at Expo. Okay. All right. So I'll bet you. If Toy Story is shown, then I will buy you dinner. If Toy Story is not shown, you buy me dinner. All right. Sounds like a plan. I can go with that. As as Pat Lawler, it being his swan song or his last one wouldn't surprise me at all. I mean, Pat's getting older and eventually you have to start looking at raising new new designers. So I that that's what surprised me about Richie going over there, too. For me, I would have been more confident in Richie announcing his retirement than actually that he was switching companies. So that surprised me.
    47:24
    That's the thing. You've got four designers with a company that produces one game at most once a year. Things are going to be switching up.
    47:34
    There's got to be a guarantee. There's no other logical explanation at this point. Yeah, it doesn't make financial sense to hire four people and to have them design a game every four years. Yeah. That doesn't work. Well, if that was the case, look at Richie. He wouldn't be making – he's 72. Is that what he said on our podcast? Yeah. 72, 73? Yeah. That makes him 75, 76? Yeah, so he's going to make two more games? I mean, come on. So they obviously have designs to ramp up production Not the best year to ramp up production but they have designs to do it I think this is my thought process I think that it's – I'm going to go to a sports analogy here.
    48:17
    Sometimes sports teams will hire the old man to have a mentor, great locker room presence. they're just someone that kind of helps carry the torch from from the old guard to the new guard i see it a lot in soccer yeah you have to know how to do it and so pat and steve obviously know how to make pinball machines obviously yeah yeah you know i played twilight zone a couple weeks ago i still love that game you know it makes the nostalgia in me but it it blows adam's family out the water i don't know why adam's family is so revered compared to twilight zone's good you could it's chopping wood don't get me wrong adams was the first that it's the first uh actual mode based game so that that's that was the the inflection point when everything changed yeah well you could technically argue that fun house was the first mode based game you technically had modes yeah adam's family was the one that actually broke it though yeah that made it to what it should be. But Twilight, man, I know it's woodchoppy. Don't send me hate mail on because of the faults of Twilight, but Twilight is a good game. When was the last time you saw magnets used as flippers? I know.
    49:39
    Yeah. Whatchamacallit. Ghostbusters. And that didn't work out so well. Those were for the slings, and that was a terrible idea. That much chaos right above the flipper is never a good idea. Yeah, but you are right on Twilight Zone in that Josh Sharp is on record of saying that it's his love-hate game. Because in a tournament mode, it's very straightforward. You do the same thing every time, and it's just choppy. But if you play it as in you want to go into the zone, it's challenging and fun. So, but if you're just going from point, yeah, it's not balanced. Well, I want to wrap this up with, I want to do a quick thoughts on our last interview, since we really didn't get to talk about, we kind of wrap things up and then we shut it down. What were your thoughts on L1? Have you had any responses? I know we've, we've had responses. Yeah. Okay. The best thing about L1 is that Keith is comfortable being Keith. and I would say that he's not dumb he knows he's a great designer he knows he's a great player but it doesn't feel like he is stressed out it still feels like he's having fun and it sounds like he is it's always work but he is enjoying the process of it so I love getting his perspective and it still seems like he's in that honeymoon phase of I've never done all this stuff before. And so everything is new territory. It's not like Steve Ritchie who's been designing, you know, games for 40 years. You know, Keith has four games under his belt and he, he just seems to be on such a, such an accelerated course that he could probably produce a, you know, a game every other release because he, he is that he, he seems to be having fun and driven. Um, that was my take home on the interview. Um, but, uh, I don't know. What was your thought?
    51:57
    I thought it was a really good interview. There was a lot of insight there. I didn't realize the Avengers was supposed to be releasing now and Godzilla was supposed to be releasing then. Um, I wonder what the switch up was for. and I don't know. I'm always curious. I know that they'll never say. No. Or at least they're not allowed to say at this point.
    52:19
    Well, and it could be anything from licensing approval. It could be part shortages. It could be developing that one mech. I mean, that was the problem with Pirates of the Caribbean, right? They had this really awesome and they pushed it so hard. We have this triple spinning disc and then they decided to pull it out and it became a big trap door for the sales.
    52:44
    So when you have any sort of mech that takes a while to develop, it could, maybe it's something like that. Again, speculation. But that was interesting that he was far enough ahead that they could do that, though. That seems amazing to me. Yeah. That you could leapfrog yourself when the time to develop is about 15 months. Yep. So that says how much energy he has right now in developing pinball machines. Well, and from my understanding, Godzilla wasn't even supposed to release now. We were supposed to see a different pinball machine at this point. So like you said, that time frame, that's short. Yeah. I don't know. Like he said on the episode, it's like his first time he's had a break in the last 12 months because it seriously went from Avengers directly into Godzilla. Yeah. And just his – I mean, I feel bad for poor Rick Nagel, man. That man is coding constantly. well oh and yeah there's a team right but it's a team that works well together and i was playing you know i was playing uh jurassic park tonight and that's such a great game and avengers i love playing that game and um you know i'm still looking forward to getting my iron maiden um you know at some point when i get squeezed in uh because of all the shortages but you know they have been making some iron maiden premiums so hopefully i'm just in the queue sometime so Yep. Well, and like I said, it's all about the team. I know that we focus so much on designers. This day and age, it really is about the full team because code takes so much up on these pinball machines now. Right. and design is just kind of honestly a small aspect of the whole process now compared to code and artwork and integration and and just adapting the theme perfectly with the layout it's there's a lot of irons in the fire and i'm impressed it's it's easy to make an okay game it's hard to make a great game yep and and that that has been proven over the last five years easily. There are some games who it releases and it just doesn't connect with me. There are other games where there is that secret sauce that's in there. So I want to know, though, people, reach out to us. If you are going to Expo, what are you looking forward to? And what were your thoughts on the interview with Elwynn? What are your takeaways? But definitely, what are you looking forward to at Expo? We did have a couple of comments. Someone wrote us, Like the morning after the L1 interview, L1 on Loser Kids, everything is now right with the world.
    55:27
    It was funny. I had a good time. I smiled. Yeah. I do apologize. We did get a couple of emails that I did not respond back to. I will get to you. I appreciate a couple handfuls of people that have reached out to us. Yeah.
    55:41
    And tomorrow I'm going to be mailing out some stuff with product shortages. We were planning on doing some special hats, but there's been some product shortages. So we're seeing what we can do.
    55:55
    I can't even get our baseball hat that we're used to getting. It's product shortage, man. It even affects loser kit hats. So thanks, COVID.
    56:04
    Yeah, thanks, COVID. How did that go? Is that right? Yeah. Like the thanks, Obama? Thanks, Obama. Yeah, thanks, COVID. No, it's fine. Yeah. No, I did get my booster, though. So I'm triple – I get like 5G with my phone, like no problem. I have like three chips in my arm now. It's awesome. Nice. You're going to come to XBall roided up, ready to go.
    56:29
    That's it. It's good. I'll have to go get my booster before I head off this weekend or next week. So what was the other thing I wanted to – oh, we got this most random email. No, I'm sorry. I'm going to bring this up because I'm not endorsing this movie at all. I don't know who made this movie. It was released last year. It's a pinball movie. It's called Bump Kowalski and the Ten Commandments. Very independent. It's on Amazon Prime. Go watch the trailer and tell me what you think. So at least tell us what they are in for when they click on that link. I don't even know what you're in for. I watched it and I still don't know if I fully understand it. So apparently it's about this amazing pinball player from like 1979 and something about there's pinball commandments. And they kind of tell you about them during the trailer. I don't know. The trailer is almost three minutes long. It gives you a pretty good idea. I haven't watched it. It doesn't look like my kind of movie. I'm not going to lie. Okay. But it sounds interesting. it looks like someone tried to do like go big or big lebowski pinball style yeah probably that that's kind of the vibes i'm getting so okay like i said will someone watch it for me and tell me yay or nay like first tell me what you're into so if i like if you're really into uh big lebowski and to like jackass maybe it gives me an idea of if what what kind of movie this is so all right All right. You know, I am.
    58:08
    I have missed part of my bro card. I watched Big Lebowski once, and I never really understood why people love that show. But, you know, who knows? I still haven't seen Forrest Gump either. Obviously, you don't smoke a bunch of weed and drink a lot of white Russians, okay? Not yet. And pee on rugs. Yeah. So. I just remember the bowling scene. Dude, one of my favorite movies of all time. And people, you either, A, haven't heard of this, or it might not be your cup of tea, but Grind. Did you ever watch Grind back in 2000, like 2002, somewhere around there? Nope. Oh, it's about these four skateboarders that go cross-country to, like, go compete in this giant competition.
    58:52
    Hilarious. No, but I did see – I watched on a plane Detroit Rock City, which was produced by Gene Simmons, about four kids who were trying to go to a kiss concert. Nice. Yeah, it's about as not awesome as you thought it was going to be.
    59:11
    Yeah, Grind has definitely acquired taste. So it's probably the same with his Detroit Rock City or whatever. Okay.
    59:19
    All right, so if you've watched Bump Kowalski, let us know so we don't have to watch it. Yeah, the producer or something reached out to us, asked if we'd talk about it. And I was just like – You know, I'm curious. I just – I don't really have much time, but I'm curious. So I need someone to review it and say, yes, go watch it. Or no. Okay, come on. Or we're putting it in the Elvira game as one of the B movies, B or C movies. It may be, but I don't think they're going for – they are not going for Oscars with this thing. Well, and it definitely is independent. Like it is an indie movie. Right. that should explain it right there. It is listed as a drama, though.
    60:03
    But it's pinball, so I wanted to help somewhat draw attention. I don't know. I'm curious. I don't know. Now I kind of wish I would have bought that clone that was made of sandalwood, so that was pinball.
    60:15
    Interesting. Oh. All right. Well, if you guys end up going to Expo, hit us up. We'll certainly be wearing our Loser Kid hats and probably some shirts walking around Expo. you'll probably be hanging out together most of the time. So, so Scott, I was talking about this with my wife and I asked her opinion on it, but I want to know your opinion before I give you hers. How do you feel about us wearing our own merchandise? Is that weird or no?
    60:44
    Okay. I don't think it's weird because I don't think we're big enough to make it weird. Um, it's fun. And that's the easiest way for someone to identify us is if we're wearing a loser kid hat or a loser kid shirt. Um, I, it would be weird if Tom Brady wore his Jersey into like a sports bar, but, uh, we're not really Tom Brady. And so I don't think it's a big deal. It's probably the easiest way for people to identify us. If two dudes are walking around pinball expo and they both have loser kid hats on, it's probably easy way to come and say, Hey, um, Hey, I listened to you or whatever. Hey, what's up? You should totally, if Keith Elwin's wearing his loser kid hat for the interview you should walk up to him i love you on the loser kid pinball podcast that would be hilarious but yeah i wonder how many i wonder how many hats we will see this at expo i don't know i'm bringing a few extra and so uh you can always try to hit me up for a hat yeah but um yeah i i don't think it's a big deal because i don't think we're big enough to make it a big deal yeah true so so what would your wife say she's like well if you worked at walmart you'd Well, she didn't say Walmart. Sorry. It's your product. Hey, I shop at Walmart. It's fine.
    62:00
    I'm not an anti-Walmartite. It's part of your product. It's part of your company. Yeah, I think it's a brand. So I'm totally fine with wearing it.
    62:09
    If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. If you're looking for us on the socials, we are at Loser Kid Pinball on Facebook, Twitter, Twitch, and Instagram. We appreciate your comments and responses on there and your likes. If you want to message us, honestly, Facebook is the easiest way to do it, is through Messenger. Do our personal accounts, because at least with me, for some odd reason, it doesn't like to come through on my phone for the Loser Kid account. I get it, but I usually tell you about it.
    62:44
    So other than that, you got anything else for us, Scott, before we sign off? No, it's great. Again, if you're going to Expo, hit us up. we're not scheduled for anything, so we're going to be walking around and having a good time. Yep. See you in two weeks or – See you next week. Something like that. Yeah, I'll see you next week. See you in Chicago. May I do some live streaming while we're at Expo so you can chat with us. All right. Later.
    63:09
    Later. Shut up and sit down. this special special
    64:09
    special