Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

BDYETP 53: Adventures in GnR and the Nick Lane NIB Experience

Bro, Do you Even Talk Pinball·podcast_episode·2h 11m·analyzed·Oct 23, 2020
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Jersey Jack's Guns N' Roses pinball reveal: approachable rules, strong concert theming, risk-reward gameplay.

Summary

Kevin Manning and Nick Lane discuss Jersey Jack Pinball's newly revealed Guns N' Roses machine, with Kevin providing detailed gameplay impressions after playing the Limited Edition for a week pre-release. The hosts explore the game's risk-reward mechanics, song-based rule structure, and theme integration while discussing their strategy of diversifying their home collections to avoid duplicates within the Buffalo Pinball community.

Key Claims

  • Guns N' Roses Standard Edition priced at $6,750 (compared to $7,500 for Wonka Standard)

    high confidence · Kevin Manning discussing official JJP pricing tiers on reveal stream

  • Guns N' Roses LE priced at $9,500; CE at $12,500 with 500-unit limit

    high confidence · Kevin Manning providing official price structure from Jersey Jack Pinball reveal

  • Game features 21 songs total, each with unique rule sets

    high confidence · Kevin Manning describing gameplay mechanics after week of pre-release play

  • The game has no ball save feature on standard play, only during certain mystery events in songs

    high confidence · Kevin Manning explaining core rule design philosophy

  • Jersey Jack designers attended Guns N' Roses concerts in Chicago to inspire light show choreography

    high confidence · Kevin citing Kiefer's comments during official reveal stream about concert inspiration

  • Guns N' Roses is 'the most approachable Jersey Jack' alongside Dialed In, contrasting with Pirates/Hobbit/Woz complexity

    medium confidence · Kevin Manning offering comparative assessment of JJP rule complexity spectrum

  • Kevin achieved 20+ million jackpot in single song during Monday stream gameplay

    high confidence · Kevin recounting personal gameplay experience on reveal stream date

  • The game uses LED inserts as ball sensors rather than traditional switches in piano area and skill shot

    high confidence · Kevin Manning describing technical feature implementation

Notable Quotes

  • “Bring the concert home... I was like well you accomplished it it's as close as you're going to get to a concert experience in a box”

    Kevin Manning @ mid-episode — Captures the core design philosophy of Guns N' Roses and Kevin's validation of Jersey Jack's tagline after personal experience

  • “It's probably the most risk versus reward game I've ever played and I like I can feel my adrenaline get going up when I get these huge jackpots going”

    Kevin Manning @ gameplay discussion — Articulates the emotional/mechanical core of the game experience that differentiates GnR from other recent releases

  • “It's got that. It's really apparent what you're doing. And then, like, the risk-reward, it's like, it's going to give me an extra ball if I push this.”

    Kevin Manning @ rules analysis — Explains why Guns N' Roses' risk-reward design feels more impactful than comparable games like AC/DC

  • “I don't think I'm going to get a Guns N' Roses... I don't want to buy the same games that you buy”

    Nick Lane @ late-episode — Reveals community/friendship dynamics affecting home collection strategy post-COVID location closures

  • “If you do have issues, that's going to be your saving grace if you have any hope... get a good distributor”

    Kevin Manning @ distributor discussion — Signals importance of distributor relationships for warranty/support on new machines

  • “When you're talking about the rules now, I just – I'm not retaining it. Yeah. It's because I need to be doing it”

    Nick Lane @ gameplay discussion — Highlights difference between streaming/spectating vs hands-on learning for complex rule sets

  • “The light shows that they do in the concert, we need to replicate that as close as possible during the song”

    Kevin Manning (citing Kiefer) @ design philosophy — Documents Jersey Jack's intentional concert-authenticity approach to light show design

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyKevin ManningpersonNick LanepersonGuns N' RosesgameKen CromwellpersonKieferpersonZach MinneypersonBuffalo Pinballorganization

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Post-COVID location closures driving strategic home collection diversification within friend groups to maintain shared gaming experiences

    medium · Nick's stated strategy: 'I don't want to buy the same games that you buy... it does us no good for our community'; historical pattern of deliberate game distribution (Kevin gets Deadpool, Nick has Jurassic Park, etc.)

  • ?

    event_signal: BDYETP hosts official reveal stream and unboxing video for Guns N' Roses; Kevin pre-streams gameplay Monday before public availability

    high · Kevin stating 'We had the honor of doing the official reveal stream as well as an unboxing video'; Monday stream gameplay discussion with 20+ million jackpot achievement

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Guns N' Roses positioned as score-chase game rather than progression-based, creating different engagement pattern than other Jersey Jack games; appeals to tournament-style play in home environment

    high · Kevin: 'this game I find myself playing for score, which is a shift for me... typically only play for score when I play at tournaments'; emphasizes risk-reward decision-making on jackpot push mechanics

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jersey Jack intentionally designed Guns N' Roses as most approachable game in their catalog while maintaining depth through patch combos and multiple paths to gameplay enjoyment

    high · Kevin's assessment: 'the most approachable Jersey Jack... but then beyond that it's got well there's the stuff like the patches'; compares favorably to Pirates/Hobbit complexity while noting guaranteed character spotting for accessibility

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.393

0:00
Coming up on this episode of Bro, Do You Even Talk Pinball, we've got the latest pinball news including the brand new reveal of Jersey Jack's Guns N' Roses pinball machine. Got a hot segment on why you might not want to buy a new in-box pinball machine, at least at this...
0:17
Double Super Jackpot! I need a ramp. I need a loop. I want targets. I can hit. I need to shoot. I need to double. I've got my life.
0:45
That's right. I can hear you. And now, the Hall and Oates of Pinball Podcasting, Nick Lane and Kevin Manning of Buffalo Pinball. Boom shakalaka. Yeah, what's up, everybody? It's a new month of Brody Even Talk Pinball. I'm Kevin Manning here with Nick Lane. Can you hear me? Am I here? I mean, I see you on my thing, so you should be good. And you can hear me too, Kevin, huh? I can.
1:14
I can hear you and see you, so we're good. Come on, Chad. This is the joy of remote podcasting. Yeah, but, you know, it's weird because I heard you the whole time, so I don't know what the heck happened. Yeah. Yeah, I'm blaming the chat. Chat, yeah. Yeah, they let us astray. So what's up? A month later, we got some big things happening in the pinball world. You left your house. It was amazing. It was a big day. Went outside. Yeah. Yeah, went on a hike. There you go. Where'd you go?
1:44
Someplace in Lockport. I forget what it's called. Yeah. It was nice. It was nice because it was not that long, though, as you do the conditions. That's the key to a good hike, not that long. Exactly. I can do that. Yeah, I've been doing some of that, too. It's good to get out while you can. and free the brain a little bit of the pandemic, whatever is going on. Yeah, I've been going for, like, walks every day in the summer, but now that the weather's getting crappy here, it's going to be a little challenge. But, you know, we train for this, Kevin. That's right. I'll just break out the ring fit again, and we'll be good to go. Yeah, you've got autofocus on too, buddy. I do? Yeah. You're looking at that camera. It doesn't matter. That's just for Zoom. Everybody else is getting a good camera. I have two cameras set up here. This is professional. He's got a studio. You have no idea. Oh, yeah. It's been kind of. Excellent. All right. Well, before we get into it, why don't we thank our partners? And I'll let you do the honors this time since I did it last month. All right. Yeah, get it up there because I need to see it. Well, Penn Stadium is the first one. There you go. Penn Stadium, premier partner of Buffalo Pinball, which we're very grateful. Penn Stadium, ladies and gentlemen, is a lighting kit for your pinball machine.
Kyle Fasa
person
Pinball Photosorganization
Goranperson
Penn Stadium (Pinstadium)product
Double Danger Pinballcompany
The Mod Couple Pinballcompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Pinslide.comcompany
Pinball EDUorganization
Community Beer Workscompany
TiltCyclecompany
Pinball Mixcompany
Titan Pinballcompany

market_signal: Jersey Jack leveraging professional photography and organized reveal stream with influencer pre-play to build community excitement and FOMO

medium · Professional pinballphotos.com imagery; official reveal stream participation; Kevin's week-long exclusive pre-release play window before public availability

  • ?

    community_signal: Nick Lane prioritizes hands-on evaluation over spectating/streaming for rule complexity assessment; explicitly rejects streaming as sufficient information source for complex games

    high · Nick: 'I struggle to get an impression of the game... I really, really have to play a game and step up to it and see it in person before I can make, like, a sound judgment'; 'unless I really play it and even with that I think I start to retain it more'

  • $

    market_signal: Guns N' Roses Standard Edition priced lower than comparable Wonka ($750 reduction) despite similar architecture, suggesting price normalization or cost management for three-tier model

    high · Kevin: '$6,750... that's $750 less than the standard edition on Wonka, but they've made some significant changes to kind of get the price down there'

  • ?

    announcement: Official reveal of Jersey Jack Pinball's Guns N' Roses with three pricing tiers: Standard $6,750, LE $9,500, CE $12,500 (500-unit limit)

    high · Kevin Manning discussing official reveal stream and pricing structure; photos from pinballphotos.com showing all three models

  • ?

    product_concern: Risk-reward mechanics and no-ball-save design creates legitimate tension and adrenaline response; mechanical flow feels natural despite complexity

    high · Kevin: 'I can feel my adrenaline get going up when I get these huge jackpots'; positive commentary on shot feel and rules clarity after one week of play

  • ?

    technology_signal: Guns N' Roses employs LED insert ball sensors instead of traditional mechanical switches in selected playfield areas (piano, skill shot)

    high · Kevin: 'Inserts act as ball sensors. So instead of having to have a switch, it's just the insert, and it can sense the ball, which is really cool'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Guns N' Roses theme deeply integrated with authentic band member representation (Slash guitar, Duff Fender bass, Frank drumsticks) and concert-specific visual inspiration from Chicago shows

    high · Kevin describing specific gear integration; Kiefer's statement about attending concerts to replicate light shows; 'Bring the Concert Home' tagline validation

    • 2:56
    It's like a stadium lighting kit. They can be controlled with iOS or Android, an app. You can control the intensity, the colors. He's got God knows how many versions now and options for your pinball machine.
    3:11
    Pinstadium, use coupon code BUFFALO, and you save 10%. What a hell of a deal. We've got Double Danger Pinball, ddpinball.com. By the way, I'm not going to say – I'll try to remember who's got coupon codes, but just throw BUFFALO in there and hope for the best. There you go.
    3:26
    TheModCouplePinball.com, my favorite modding place. I actually bought mods because they're so good. I'm not even a modding person, so go figure. All right, flipping out pinball, flipping out pinball. If you do, after I told people not to buy or warn people about buying new pinball machines, but if you don't listen to me and you want to get a pinball machine, I highly recommend flipping out pinball. Zach Minney, good guy. He'll take care of you. He's a distributor. That's going to be an important part of this talk is get a good distributor because if you do have issues, that's going to be your saving grace if you have any hope.
    3:59
    Flipnoutpinball.com, selling basically every new box pinball machine you can want. I don't know where I'm Pony Factory, Zach. You'll have to let us know. And we better be the first people to know, Zach. Okay, let's talk. Let's see what we can work out here. Pinslide.com, I was actually on Pinslide.com today. You were? In the forums section doing some homework and riling people up and hyping the talk here. really looking forward to that. Pinslide.com, just a shout-out to them. They were my start 10 years ago. I think I've hit the 10-year mark of being, not only a pinball machine, but being into pinball, and Pinslide.com played a pivotal role in that, so shout-out to our sponsor, Pinslide.com. Here's to Jack Pinball, makers of the most beautiful pinball machines on the planet, and the brand-new Guns N' Roses, which people seem to be loving. I see it in Kevin's background there. I'm jealous. Maybe one year I'll get to play it. Maybe. Who knows? Pinball EDU. Pinball EDU is a charity supporting kids who have autism through the power of being able to play some pinball. Go to pinballraffle.org. You can buy a raffle ticket. That raffle ticket will support the charity while also giving you a chance to win a pinball machine. So do good and possibly win something. That's pretty awesome. Community Beer Works. Community Beer Works, we miss you. And they're still in existence. We just can't go down there. I don't. People can. But they are my favorite brewery in Buffalo, New York. Highly recommend it if you're in the area.
    5:29
    They've been doing beer delivery, and you've gone and picked some up. So Beauty Beer Works, TiltCycle.com. Welcome back, TiltCycle. We missed you. We love Dan Burfield and his art. Kevin and I both have some of his art. And I'm sure a lot of viewers do as well because he's making creations of repurposed, upcycled pinball art. Come to pinball.com. come at pinball.com not only awesome shirts but um your led one-stop shop destination go there they've got everything i want to trick out my um uh jungle lord with some of their bendy kind of light bulbs that's my technical term uh viewer actually showed me what he did with his jungle lord and made it look a lot better so i'm gonna do that because that's a dark machine pinballmix.com save 10 i'm gonna easter egg when you use code buffalo pinballmix.com will remix songs in your pinball machine. I mean, he had some news about expanding to things like pin sound. Yeah, so he just posted a new video of a Van Halen mix he did for, what was the game? I can't remember the game. I remember the sound. The sound was really good. It's on YouTube. You can check it out. Yeah, the shadow. Yeah. Using pin sound. Go check out, yeah, go to Pinball Mix's YouTube channel and check out the mix he did with Van Halen on shadow. And also, we're talking to Pinball Mix today, and I've had my Metallica Selective Soul Mix now for over a year, which is to some people. But I'm just kind of amazed at how well Mark did with that mix. Basically, I just gave him, I think, 15 to 20 songs and let him work his magic, right? Just trust that he knows what he's doing because he will not just play the song from the beginning. He'll cut the song to where it's most appropriate to start. He'll loop it perfectly. You know, the song that he has tied in for when Sparky starts or when the Lady Justice rants are going, he played, like, the song Heavy there. You know, like, all the weights. I mean, like, he's just – he doesn't half-ass it, man. He puts a lot of thought in, and I have a hell of a lot of respect for it. PinballMix.com, well worth the money. And then last but not least, Titan Pinball. TitanPinball.com. Get your silicone rings. Get your PinballMass and Titan.com and plenty of other things. I've been hearing that their pinballs are good as well. And by that, I mean the actual physical pinballs, not the pinball machines that people sometimes call pinballs. They're not. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again just as a piece of say. Pinballs are the balls, not the machines. God bless you guys. Okay, Kevin, let's move on. Thank you. Well done. And I've got some Titans on the way for Guns N' Roses, so it's going to be looking good. Are you going to do a hot stream? Oh, yeah. All right, nice. I mean, all it needs is, I think it's got Titans everywhere. It's got some silicone rubbers everywhere except for the three big flippers. So that's what I'm getting. Okay, that's going to be a short stream. It's going to be a short stream, but then we'll get to play Guns N' Roses, which is what it's really all about. There you go. Yep. Oh, I have one request from Goran. He wants to know if you're proud of him.
    8:35
    I can't imagine why I would be proud of him. Is there a reason? I said I was proud of him today, and he said you need to be proud of him as well. He needs that from you. I think there's times when I've told Gorn I'm proud of him, but nothing recent comes to mind. So you've got to earn that. Okay, sorry. You've got to be honest. I know you're a Gen Z or whatever, but this is how things used to be. You have to earn it. You're not just giving. It's not candy. That's right. Well, like in Discord today, he got to first place in our Halloween game we got going. And I told him I was proud of him with a little animated gif. Oh, that's adorable. There you go. That's adorable. Until tomorrow. That's right. How to just break the cycle of making Goran feel good about himself every day. This is why you don't get into this stuff, Kevin. He's going to be coming back to you for more self-esteem. I know. But not me, because he knows that it's really in short supply for me. He really got what he wanted right here. So there you go. What more did he want? A shout-out on the podcast. Mission accomplished, Goran. Good job. You're the J-Fair brother of the viewers.
    9:30
    All right. Where's my – here we go. This is what we want. We're getting into news. Here's the tip. It's the latest Timbo news. Somebody asked on – Show hunt. I probably have some questions in the chat. They asked if I have pins on location or everything's down. Everything's down right now. Essentially, the business is on hold due to COVID.
    9:49
    It's been a rough year for that. Thankfully, this is not my only source of income or anything like that. It's for fun. I can manage. It still sucks, but it is what it is. Thanks for the question.
    10:03
    That's 2020. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's 2020, man, for sure. All right. I don't know if I have the right picture queued up here. I do. This is the latest pinball news, and the top of the latest pinball news is the brand-new Guns N' Roses from Jersey Jack Pinball. Guns N' Roses is not in its lifetime. We had the honor of doing the official reveal stream as well as an unboxing video. So if you are a subscriber of our YouTube channel, you can go check that out. If you're not, you can go subscribe. Or if you're watching this, you can go check that out.
    10:31
    They revealed three models. The standard edition, which is $6,750, that's $750 less than the standard edition on Wonka, but they've made some significant changes to kind of get the price down there. The LE is $9,500, which is the same as Wonka, and the CE, which sold out 500 units, is $12,500. If you're looking at the pictures, the standard edition is in the back, the collector's edition is in the middle, and the limited edition is the one closest to the screen, the one that's slash is standing behind there um looks great um so i love the game i i have the limited edition which is the one they ship me uh the cabinet art looks amazing um the gameplay is really fun um it's probably the most risk versus reward game i've ever played and it like i can feel my adrenaline get going up when i get these huge jackpots going because i uh monday when i streamed it, I got 20-plus million jackpot on a song, and it was ridiculous. So it's like it gets to a point in these songs where you're like, you can see that you have this jackpot built up, and you're like, do I want to keep pushing it? Do I want to keep pushing it? Or am I just going to cash it out when I saw it was over 20 million points? I'm like, yep, I'm taking this. Got me up to my grand champ. It's just over 30 million now, which has been pretty ridiculous. So what can I say? I can show some pictures off. So in the back, so kind of the concept of the game is you're collecting all the band members at the start, and then you're playing through songs. And there's 21 songs, I believe, in total. Each one has unique rules as far as the things you need to shoot. Kind of the crux of how I approach it right now, and I'm sure this will evolve as I learn the game more, is that I want to play some of the booster multiballs, which is lights, pyro, amp, and whatever the last one is. Let me see if I got another shot of the play field there where it shows those. I don't.
    12:36
    So there's four of them. Oh, it turned it up. No, that's amp. Never mind. But anyways, you want to play those four as much as possible, as long as possible. And there's no ball save on there. They're just quick two-ball multiballs. You want to get those going. Those are going to boost your scoring, light more shots during your songs when you get there, and really help you blow those up. The other thing you want to do before you get into a song, if you can, is lock as many balls as you can on that slash guitar neck in the middle. So you're going to, when you qualify a character, you collect them to play the song, that's going to open up your locks, which lowers the diverter on the left ramp. You can shoot it up and then around to the right. Sometimes you can get a clean shot up there, or you can use the little flipper up there to backhand it. And then you can lock up the six balls. If you lock all six balls, you can actually start the song with the sixth ball you locked, or otherwise you have to hit the scoop to start your song. And then when you get into the song, it's party time. All the balls come out of multiball. Hopefully you've built up your ball save enough where you get to kind of work through some or most of the song while you're in multiball. and that's where you really build up these huge jackpots. So during the songs, there's going to be specific shots you need to hit that are lit a certain color. You can look at the back screen, kind of like on all Jersey Jack games, the secondary screen is where you get instant information about what you need to hit next. So you look at those, hit your shots, progress. It starts off with like three or four shots usually before you can put it in the scoop and you can either end the song and go back to out of song play, collecting characters again. Or you can add a ball and push your luck and try to keep pushing that jackpot up. So while you've got multi-ball going, if you hit the scoop when it's flashing green, then it'll just add another ball and you'll keep going. Once you're down to one ball is when you get the chance to either add a ball or cash out.
    14:39
    She's talking to me back there. But if you get to a song without blocking any balls, it'll just be a single ball song.
    14:51
    Then you play it, and then you can play your first part of the song, and then that's when you get an add-a-ball. When you get the add-a-ball, you're not going to get ball saver. You can get ball saver for mystery sometimes during songs. That'll keep it going a little bit. But that's kind of the gist of the rules, kind of like the main rules.
    15:14
    Yeah, the song, like Doreen said, it's really cool when you get to the songs. The light show is amazing.
    15:21
    And Kiefer, when he was on the reveal stream with us, he said they were actually at the concerts in Chicago, and he was inspired to be like, all right, we need to make the light shows that they do in the concert, we need to replicate that as close as possible during the song. So in the pinball machine. So that's really, you know, when you see them play Live and Let Die, for example, at a concert, it's got the same, like, hits and the green lights and things like that, just like that. So it really comes across as somebody who is a live music fan. I've been going to concerts for years. I've got records lining my game room here. It really kind of struck me. So I got to play this game for about a week before anybody else had seen it, humble brag. but even during that time I was just getting time to play it and experience myself and I had that moment when I was playing it and I was like it felt very concert like and then I told that to Ken Cromwell from Jersey Jack Pinball their communications person and he's like oh well our tagline for the pinball machine is bring the concert home I was like well you accomplished it it's as close as you're going to get to a concert experience in a box But it's so much more than a cool light show. It's got, like, the rails on the side, the hot rails, which light all the way up and down the pinball machine that replaced the traditional rails on a pinball machine. It's got awesome integration of the theme with the, like, the ramp here that I'm showing that is made of actual drumsticks. it's got the defender base on the left which is it's so fun to like climb this three level upper play field you hit the left ramp and then it can go you got like three options you can either hit the stand-up target there that's like to hit the lights shot you can backhand it into the lock shot onto the slash guitar or you can hit it up to the left and that goes up onto the base ramp and it's really fun to kind of get it all the way up there and have it fall all the way back down from there. So that's how you qualify Duff.
    17:30
    What else? What else do I want to talk about? It's got the – slash is the spinning record there. Axle is in the back.
    17:39
    There's – oh, one of the other cool features of this is it has inserts. So inserts are like the areas of the play field that are lit.
    17:49
    Inserts act as ball sensors. So instead of having to have a switch, it's just the insert, and it can sense the ball, which is really cool. And so the piano area in the center of the play field here that you're seeing, that will sense the ball for the keyboardists. And the other place that's used is in the skill shot. I don't know if I have a shot of the skill shot, but the skill shot is kind of under the drumsticks there, and there's five or six lights that you can roll over, and you want to hit just the one that's lit. But think of it like Twilight Zone, except for instead of switches, it's the lights. It's pretty cool.
    18:27
    So did I take these photos? No. These photos are courtesy of our friend at pinballphotos.com. He took these amazing promotional photos for Jersey Jack. So I am not this talented, nor do I have the camera equipment to take pictures of these awesomes. This awesome. So shout out to Pinball Photos. You can check. He's got a full gallery of these photos on his site. I don't understand. Maybe somebody in the chat can help me. That guitar says Fender on it. I thought Slash played Gibson. So that's the bass. The Duff plays a Fender bass. I'm surprised they didn't have Slash's guitar on there. It is. That's the main multiball lock in the middle right next to his hat. Oh, that is? That's Slash's guitar in the middle, yeah. Oh, I see the bass there. Don't mind me. I see that. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, so that was one of the things, like, people who are really into music, they're like, I'm surprised Gibson and Fender are both on the same machine because I guess they're pretty tough competitors, but, you know, the power of Guns N' Roses, right? Yeah, that's awesome.
    19:31
    And then you've got the actual drumsticks that Frank, their drummer, uses and things like that. So really cool theme integration.
    19:40
    What else did I want to talk about? Hot Rails, we talked about the rollover lights. there's some other modes in there too so once you play like a song if you play a song for like 3 minutes total time you can qualify an album mode and an album mode you hit by hitting a little scoop and you can it's like a little mini single ball wizard mode, mini wizard mode but they're calling them album modes and there's some really cool ones The Chinese Democracy one is my favorite by far. It looks amazing. Really cool. I'm not going to spoil it. I want you guys to get there yourself. I did play it on stream Monday because that was during that ridiculous game I was playing, and I wanted to see how far I could go. So that was really fun. They're still working on the Desert Demolition one. You can play it, but there's more animation and choreography that's on the way for that. But everything else is there and working well. The other one I tend to play a lot is the User Illusion one. Yeah.
    20:44
    So that's the one where you're, like, firing the cannon into the wall. Pretty good stuff. And then beyond that, there's the tour multiball, which I finally got to on Monday, and slash solo, which is, like, a little quick mode. You got, like, a 99-second slash solo from their actual concert that you can, you need to, like, hit the record, then you need to lock it on his guitar, and then hit, like, the two shots that you need to hit to kind of cash that out. So that's it. And the ball doesn't stop, slash keeps playing, or the timer doesn't stop, slash keeps playing. You've got to get it done in that amount of time. It's pretty tough, pretty cool. Jeff, I'm curious if you have a sense of, like, the level of depth of rules compared to the other Jersey Jack games. Where does it fall in that spectrum? So it's not like the overwhelming, crazy Jersey Jack rule set that kind of they've come to be known for. I almost said on stream the other day that it was the most approachable Jersey Jack, but I feel like Dialed In is right there, too. Dialed In is a very approachable game, too, right? But it's not like Pirates or Hobbit or Woz where you're like, what's going on here? It takes you a while or you've got to have somebody explain what's happening or have a spotter while you're playing it. It's very straightforward. at least understand the basics, right? Like collecting the band, starting a song. And the way they've structured it is as long as you're having an okay game, you're probably going to get to a song, at least by ball three, because it's going to spot you a character or two here or there.
    22:20
    And that's, you know, you want to have that experience. So it makes a really cool first impression for the first couple times you're stepping up. It's got very cool wow moments. and then you but then beyond that it's got well there's the stuff like the patches where you can pull those in to give yourself power ups and there's patch combos where if you put two of them together so there's the ladies underwear you can match up and then get double your bonus for the rest of the game we figured that one out on stream and I think Kyle Fasa is putting together a full spreadsheet of all the combos and what they do so if you want to dig deep you can dig really deep but in the meantime there's still some really cool, like, stuff you can do, even if you're just kind of flipping around and you want to have fun and have a cool moment. So I think it's going to have that great appeal on location, and it's also going to have the good, like, the longevity that you want in your home, right? Because this game, for me, like, I typically play games at home for progress. I want to, like, see how far I can get through Pirates or Jurassic Park. or I want to get to Escape Nublar or whatever, this game I find myself playing for score, which is a shift for me playing at home. I typically only play for score when I play at tournaments or league or whatever.
    23:40
    But that incentive of trying to catch all these huge song jackpots is just really fun and really cool. That seems reminiscent of ACDC, where I feel like you're doing that. Yeah. I don't know. I played ACDC a lot, but I don't know. It didn't hit me as much trying to push the songs. Well, you owned an ACDC, so maybe it's the difference of owning it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like ACDC, a lot of times you're playing for score rather than getting through the game because you're trying to build up song jackpots and just build it up and build it up and waiting to cash it out with the cannon. Okay. Yeah, that's true.
    24:20
    Seems all about that. Yeah. I like what this does that I really like is it's got that. It's really apparent what you're doing. And then, like, the risk-reward, it's like, it's going to give me an extra ball if I push this. So that's going to make me kind of, like, try to push it. Like, oh, I get another ball. It gives me a little bit of a safety net. But it really doesn't because there's no ball save on that. But it's like, do I get a two-ball multi-ball and keep trying for it? Or do I cash it out and just take my money and run, right? So I think there's a little more on the risk-reward side here that kind of makes you want to keep pushing it, if that makes sense.
    25:02
    So what was your impression of the game? I know you watched some of the reveal stream. Yeah, I found it – I don't know if it's just me. When I watch a stream, I struggle to get an impression of the game. I mean, I really, really have to play a game and step up to it and see it in person before I can make, like, a sound judgment on it.
    25:21
    It seems overwhelming in terms of the lights. So I don't try handily to lock on in terms of what's going on, like the rules. When you're talking about the rules now, I just – I'm not retaining it. Yeah. It's because I need to be doing it, and I need to start putting it together piece by piece. So I just try to look at the package altogether. And I don't think, you know, when we stream, you can even convey how LEDs really look. So you're in person. So it's really hard for me to get a sense for this game, more than maybe most games that I see a reveal on. So I'm just going to have to wait until I play it, to be honest. Yeah. I get that, too. Like, I'm the same way. Like, I was just watching. Ben was just streaming Avengers. And I'm really curious about Avengers. I really want to play that game. and I've watched a lot of streams about it but like I think unless somebody is explicitly saying this is what you need to do, this is what I'm doing the whole way through it definitely doesn't retain I don't retain it unless I really play it and even with that I think I start to retain it more once I've played it at least a few times and then I hear somebody start to explain what you need to do so without having that hands on experience it's really tough I can fall in love of a game sometimes from, like, you know, the first couple games, right? Like, how do the shots feel? What are those other moments, right? Like, I can definitely be dazzled by the presentation, which, you know, Jersey Jack and the Bulls have in spades. So I can't wait for that experience that I can only get from playing it in person and then playing it enough so that I can kind of do the analytical nerding out on the rules and seeing, like, what's really here in this game, right? Like, after getting past all the kind of presentation glitzy stuff, which I know is going to impress, at the heart of it, how does the game shoot? And, you know, what does it present rule-wise? Is it interesting enough? Is it unique enough? That's what I look for. And, you know, that'll take some time. Yeah. But I'll have to, when this gets better, I'll have to come to your house for about a weekend, crash there. Yeah, you can come play Heist, and you can come play Guns N' Roses, and Cosmic Racing. I got a lot of work to do, Kevin. Yeah, you got some catching up to do. It's been a while. But that's the weird thing, too. Think about how many pinball machines that have come. We're so used to having access to all the new games when they come out because you guys would buy them for your locations, and then we'd go stream them. I haven't played Ninja Turtles. I haven't played Avengers.
    27:50
    What else have I played? I haven't played Hot Wheels. I haven't played Rick and Morty. All these games, it's going to be like this avalanche of games that we get to play. Well, that's the thing, too, and you and I haven't talked about this yet, And I'll talk about it, you know, in my segment about, you know, buying any pinball machine. But the way my mind's been working is I'm like, okay, I don't think I'm going to get a Guns N' Roses. And it has nothing to do with how good or how much I like or how much I don't like the game, right? Like, I'm almost hoping I don't love it because I don't want to buy the same games that you buy. Right. Right? Like, especially because of what's happened because of COVID, I don't know what's going to happen with location pinball. so it does us no good for our community our ourselves if we're you and i are buying the same games because we play each other's collections right so i try to buy things that are different i didn't get a um jurassic park because you got a jurassic park so it was just it wasn't it was out of the question as far as i'm concerned i'll get a deadpool because right like you don't have that even though it's on location so you know i i've been slightly tempted for an Avengers. I mean, I've got to play it or something. It's out of character for me to take a risk on a game I've never played, unless it's just people that I totally respect are saying that this game is just super amazing, and, you know, I hear that after the honeymoon period is over kind of deal. But, yeah, that's my diversify strategy within our friendship and the Buffalo Pinball group, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. You know, exactly. Like with Deadpool and Jurassic Park, where you're like, you get this, I'll get that. Or I had already had my Jurassic Park, and you were like, well, I'll get that pool because you don't have that, and we could play each other's. And I never bought a Walking Dead, even though I love that game because you had it, and I was over there a couple times every other month to go and play it so that I could get my fix there. So, you know, it does change a little bit with COVID, and I am tempted more to buy games like Heist. I'm like, I'm going to take a shot on this game because I want something new to play during COVID, I can grab Cosmic Kart Racing and play that also online when I want to get kind of a competitive fix. And when am I ever going to get to play this because there's a pandemic? So, I... And, you know, when it comes to, like, buying a new Stern, it's like, it's tempting to kind of maybe grab a... grab an Avengers and play it, and then if it doesn't... if it doesn't click with me for whatever reason, you can sell it and get most of your money back, right? But, yeah. And I also have the benefit of having a pretty much contactless drop-off and install set up in my house versus yours. You're going to have to, like, have somebody over and help you get a game in the basement. And that's, like, a whole other level of things to worry about for you. Yeah, that's the thing. And I made a post on Facebook, I think it was, like, last week, and just saying how much COVID has taught me how much pinball is, like, a social thing for me. I've not played a lot of pinball. I haven't had a lot of interest in pinball just because I have not been able to go out and play in tournaments. I've not been able to get together with my friends. I've not been able to get together and do the bro show.
    31:01
    Pinball is not really a solo experience for me. Now, when I didn't know a lot of people, I would travel and play pinball myself. I still love that. But, you know, as you mentioned, I've got a challenge of getting pinball machines in my basement. So it kind of takes off the table getting pinball machines in and out until COVID is over.
    31:20
    I don't know, man. It makes me really value tournaments, road show, local get-togethers, going to friends and playing pinball. It is a super social thing for me, very much so. This is the one outlet I have, you know, doing a stream and at least connecting to our viewers that way and doing the podcast thing in touch. Yeah. I can't wait until things get back to normal so I can get that social fix. I say this as an introvert, too. I know. That's the power of pinball. That's saying a lot. Yeah, the stream thing has been great. Like, I've been, you know, keeping the streams going Monday nights, doing, you know, impromptu streams here and there. It's like at least we can kind of virtually hang out and play. The multi-morphic multiplayer stuff has been cool because that's been virtual, like, tournaments. And, like, Carl's got his streaming tournament coming up. So there's some stuff happening as far as trying to fill that gap, but it's never the same as getting together and doing it in person. No, it's not. So, all right. Anything else on GNR? I think we pretty well covered it.
    32:28
    I guess the other cool thing that I didn't really talk about is, like, the display and the assets and things like that. So it's got all of this concert. So it actually has more content than Hobbit, which is ridiculous. Hobbit is, like, four gigs. This is like six or something like that worth of concert footage from their not in this lifetime tour and all the original album masters of their songs So really it just like everything you would want theme integration from a music band I couldn't think of anything else you would want. Like, you want the original master recordings. You want concert footage of the band. Maybe you would want, like, the original music videos instead of concert footage. I don't know. That's just, like, a preference thing. But, yeah, it's got some original music in there from Slash.
    33:17
    All their instruments are represented. It's even got little symbols on the pop bumpers. What the heck more do you want people to want? You know what I mean? It's got the lights that look like concert lights that pivot around and spotlight. It's really cool. It's a cool-looking game.
    33:31
    All right, so that brings us to the end of Guns N' Roses. is let's move on to the next update, which is Heist. So we were talking about Heist before. Heist got a software update to game version 8.1.0.
    33:47
    Not a huge update, but what's really cool, and I'm going to be streaming this on Monday, is they brought the Twitch integration that came out for Cosmic Kart Racing. There's now a Twitch integration for Heist. So some of the things, this is like the beta version of their Twitch integration, but on this game what they're going to be able to do is you can do a blackout like you could on Cosmic Cart, which turns the whole game off basically and says on the screen who blacked you out while you continue to play and try to figure out your progress. You can send the police back and forth across the play field, and you can send the money truck so you can collect cash to get the multi-ball. You can also throw virtual cash on the screen through bits. So if you've seen me stream this game, when you hit these stand-up targets that you see with the cash on them, money falls onto the screen, and now you're going to be able to make it rain virtually on my pinball machine by throwing bits in chat. It's going to be pretty cool. So, again, it's a mix of paid and free interaction, I should say, that you can do by using just, like, chat commands. I think the blackout and the cash on the play field are paid, and the two trucks, the truck and the cop car are chat command ones. So looking forward to trying that out and playing that with you guys on Monday. So come and try to mess me up or help me out by doing that.
    35:23
    We also had a Ranger in the Ruins update. So if you saw, I streamed the reveal of that. And that's the cool Nick Baldrige game. It's an add-on game for the Cosmic Art Racing play field. And he did a small update for that. I don't think it was a big huge rules-wise one, but it's cleaning it up, polishing it up a little bit more. I've had Heist in there, I haven't dropped Cosmic Heart back in but when I do, I will be checking that out so they're also going to Jerry is planning another Cosmic Heart Racing multiplayer night so if you are listening and you have Cosmic Heart Racing and you want to play, I think we're going to aim to do it on either a Friday or a Saturday so keep an eye out for that and follow up and we can all play together it'll be a good time alright, so next we're going into, ladies and gentlemen It's the Elvira Topper for Elvira's House of Horrors.
    36:20
    We got a first look at it from Zach at Flippin' Out Pinball. He did a little video about it, and I was checking it out. So he's the one modeling it here for us.
    36:30
    I know, Nick, you looked at the show notes and you saw the price, but it's $1,000. $1,000 topper for your Elvira's House of Horrors. So it looks like if you want to – Ultimate Richie Rich thing, man. Oh, yeah. If you went to Home Depot and you looked at their Halloween decorations, it probably looks something like this.
    36:51
    You know, the little gravestones you put in your front yard. Does it do anything? Wait for it. You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. That's what it does. I think I'm ready. That's what it does.
    37:05
    What? It just pops up? And it opens like, so I was watching Pride Pinball stream this. Check him out on Twitch, Pride Pinball. He was streaming the install of this on his game. and when the thing lifted up, I thought it was malfunctioning because that's like – it lifts up like two inches. You can barely see Elvira. Oh, my God, dude. Oh, my – dude, all this tells me that String keeps on doing this and jacking up prices that people are buying it. Yeah, totally. There's a lot of go-ins out there. Yeah. I mean, if you spent that much on a super-LE Elvira, you know you're getting this. Holy shit, dude. Because you wanted the $15,000 version with a piece of her cash. I am super jealous. I just long for the day that I have the kind of money where I look at that and I say, fuck it, just put that little depolarine decoration on top of my demo machine. Was it $1,000? Yeah, who cares? You can get yourself an Xbox Series X and a PlayStation 5, or you can get this top line. Oh, God damn it.
    38:02
    You can buy a top line VR headset and go to different worlds and just blow your mind, or you can get a fucking piece of plastic that lifts halfway up and looks broken. Congratulations. Jesus. There you go. God bless you, Stern. See, listen, I don't feel sorry for them. But, you know, look, people are buying it. Yeah. They're doing it. It's working. Yeah. If people were buying it, they wouldn't do it.
    38:24
    I'm sorry. I don't. I know people are listening to it and watching it and went out and bought it. Just explain it to me.
    38:32
    Consider me stupid and say Nick's stupid and he doesn't get it. Write me an email, like a serious email. Not like I go, fuck you, Nick. But like, here's why I like this. Or just sell me on it. Sell me on it. All right? Yep. I mean, listen, I spend $1,000 on things, but for a fucking topper, I don't get it. So help me. Make a convincing argument. I would love to see that. If your argument's really good, we'll read it on the next month's podcast. Yeah, I want that. And I'll be fair. I'll be as fair as possible. I want to see a good argument for a $1,000 topper. This falls solidly in the not-for-us category. Yeah. Okay.
    39:12
    Sorry. That was good. I knew Nick would like that one. That's why I just said that. Virtual Expo took place this weekend. Did you watch any of it, Nick?
    39:21
    I did not. No, that's not surprising at all. You know, to be honest, yeah, yeah. I didn't really know what was going on until it was going on kind of deal. Yeah. Maybe I saw some things in my feed, but that's it. Yeah, yeah. I popped in here and there. It was cool. Like, you know, again, virtual stuff is never the same as the real thing. But it's nice. They did basically four days' worth of programming on Twitch, which is a huge feat, and a lot of planning goes into that. And, you know, they coordinated stuff from all over the world. I tuned in while Ed Robertson was giving a tour of his arcade in the woods, and he had a drone in the sky that flew down and went into his game room in the middle of nowhere. So I said, you're looking good. He was looking good. So cool to pull all that off. And it was a fun kind of diversion for the weekend. He just knew, like, let's see what's going on, see what's happening on virtual expo. So thanks to the guys for doing that. And maybe next year we'll get to not do it virtually and actually go in real life. That'd be fun.
    40:19
    But that'd us really go, right? Well, I mean, if we wanted. You go to expo again? I would, you know. I feel like when everything opens back up, I'm going to want to, like, go to a bunch of crap.
    40:30
    I want to play pinball. I want to see people. I want to hang out. Yeah. All right. Well, we're going to go to, when things open up, we're definitely going to go to a show, right? Oh, yeah. This is our bubble pinball thing. We try to go to a different show every year. Yeah. Maybe InDisc or something. That'd be fun. Yeah. I like it.
    40:49
    In California, the Museum of Pinball is awesome. Next item on our news is Kelps' for Sale. So this is the Australian-made pinball machine from Haggis Pinball. They're building these finally. It got a little delayed by COVID, but they're back in action. They're selling 200 of these. The price has started $5,250 U.S. It goes up from there depending on the kits you want or the kind of add-ons and bling you want on your machine. You can also do cool stuff like get your name in the game. So they're doing some neat stuff. Looking forward to seeing this. They have sledgehammer-tested play fields and LCD screen embedded in the play fields. There's some really cool stuff here from the guys at Haggis Pinball. So check it out. They're going to go quick, I bet, because, you know, super limited run. So if you want it, get in on it. And I know some folks in Discord have been talking about maybe grabbing one. So looks good. Well, it's a good start. I mean, you know, Spooky did 150 of their America's Most Haunted. Yeah. And that kind of succeeded at that. and that allowed them to move on to their next game, right? So they started off there with the limited and made it work. So it can work for companies, and then some companies it doesn't work when you're like, should I sell 100 copies of Mafia, right? And you can't sell it. Exactly. So I guess it's a good make or break number. We'll see what happens. Yeah. So, yeah. I didn't show a picture of the play field. We did a real full breakdown of that game a few episodes ago, so if you want to go back on YouTube, you can check out some pictures of that or just visit, I guess, pinball.com to check out more of it.
    42:28
    All right, the next thing we're going to touch on is this story from Fox Business. It was about coronavirus leading to a spike in pinball popularity, and this is going to, like, auto-play a bunch of crap, I bet. So let me pause this, and we'll pop over to Firefox.
    42:45
    Maybe it's not going to. Maybe I put the kibosh on all that. So pinball machines have become a popular pastime as more people look for non-conventional forms of at-home entertainment in the midst of the pandemic. So when this story came out, I saw it like a bazillion times all over Facebook and on Pinside and in like the fan groups and things like that.
    43:08
    So the crux of it is in this paragraph here. It says, as the largest manufacturing pinball makers in the world, Stern Pinball has been a direct beneficiary of the upswing. The Chicago-based company has grown five-fold over the course of the pandemic with its current backlog at record levels. And there's a quote from board member and owner, vice chairman, and executive vice president of CERN Pinball Inc., Dave Peterson. He says, it's a challenge to entertain anybody when your options of going out have been removed. People quarantined at home are looking to entertain their families, and pinball is a terrific way to do that. But now our real challenge is the company has to scale up manufacturing in order to work out those backlogs and meet that demand. So five-fold seemed like impossible to me when I heard that. I don't know what your thought is on that. So, I mean, it's possible. You know, when I kind of put everything in perspective, I mean, number one, I'm guessing that they're selling less to operators, so you're losing some there. You know, we normally would buy pinball machines, but that's, you know, location pinball. Forget about it right now.
    44:15
    But at the same accord, like, I look at my situation, and I have more money in my savings account than I ever have in my entire life because I'm not going on, like, a lot of trips and stuff that I normally would. And it's amazing how much that's added up. And there's other things in the mix that's contributed to that, but I have more money now than I normally would or would have at this time. So I've got to imagine that some people who had money saved up, they were going to take their family on a vacation. This was like the perfect kind of excuse to maybe get the first pinball machine or buy that other pinball machine. It's like, look, honey, we're going to spend X amount of money on vacation. Can't do that. Let's get a pinball machine this year. So I think there's a lot of people who have some, you know, ironically enough, right in the midst of a pandemic when there's plenty of people suffering. There's people whose jobs have been protected or insulated through being able to work remotely. you and I are examples of that. You've bought one pinball machine during the pandemic, right? Yep. I think that there's enough people in that situation that it could very well be true that pinball sales are up. I don't know about fivefold, because I'm sure some are down with locations, but I can definitely see people maybe getting their first machine or buying a machine when they normally wouldn't. I'm actually in a situation to buy a pinball machine, whereas maybe it would have taken another year or so of just feeling comfortable to buy one. So it is ironically enough because of the pandemic.
    45:42
    So that was Stern's take on this. They did an interview with Eric Minier and Slash. Eric's quoted in here too somewhere.
    45:52
    So it talks about how they sold out 500 of their collector's edition games and they're selling their other two models. And Eric kind of gave a similar take. He said people are spending a lot more time at home, and a lot of people are putting up their own home arcades. This is Jersey Jack pinball game designer Eric Minier. People are buying a lot more arcades than they were in the past. So, yeah, you're kind of like taking that experience that you used to go out for and bringing it home if you have the means. And that's kind of a – it shows how unfair this pandemic is because some people have no job. You know, they've been out spending all their savings. They're really tapped out, while others of us who are lucky enough to have steady jobs and able to work from home and, you know, kind of build up the savings and are able to splurge a little bit. Yeah, and I guess when we went into the pandemic, my thought was, was this going to do with pinball, right? You know, because I'm thinking what it was like 10, 12 years ago when the recession hit, how pinball was on the ropes, so to speak. and that's not to say that we're not going to hit another recession. We don't know how things are going to shake out a year from now and so the effects of COVID and all that, but I am at least happy to see some good news, right, that man, pinball's going strong. Who would have thought? Yeah. But I guess, you know, that kind of logic makes sense, what Eric was saying and what I was saying as well. Yeah, and I think, you know, like you said, people are maybe a little more willing to take a chance and buy a game that they've never played, because for me, I would never do that, right? Like, if I'm going to drop $5,000 to $10,000 on a machine, I need to play it first. Sorry. I need to know if I love it. Whereas, like, maybe now I'll take a risk, and if I don't love it, I'll just move it on. Yeah. So it kind of changed everything.
    47:44
    All right. So, oh, boy. It's time for this, I guess. Yeah. Let's do it. Classic Playfield Reproductions has announced a couple conversion kits. This is a new thing. If you know Classic Playfield Reproductions, they've been, as their name says, they've been reproducing classic pinball playfields. So if your old playfield is worn out, they will do runs of new versions of those.
    48:16
    And so they've broadened their horizons and started doing conversion kits. And to quote them, they say, these kits are a perfect way to save those old trashed-out pinball machines that are just too far gone for a restoration or a great way to add a custom game to your collection. As time goes by, we'll be adding new titles to this catalog. We have priced these kits to be affordable for everyone in the hobby. All of our products in these kits are made of the same high-caliber, high-end materials and are made using the same process as our standalone products. No overlays for play fields. All products in these kits are new. So let's scroll down. So they've done two of these. And I know most people in chat know what's coming. And Nick's seen these. But the first one was Inked. And you may see a theme developing here among these so far. There's only two, but there's definitely – they're on a theme here. The first one is Inked. And this is a conversion kit for Harlem Globetrotters, a game that Nick Lane owns and Rudy Subones. I'm sure both of you will be buying the Inked conversion kit, which contains a new play field with clear starburst inserts, one new mirror back glass, one new set of plastics, one new set of cabinet decals, one new apron decal, and one shooter gauge decal, three new spinner decal sets, 20 new target decals, one new topper. That means Gorin's going to definitely buy it. And a set of pin cards, and that's a registered trademark. So we'll just – oh, the price, by the way, it's on sale. normally $2,799 on sale right now. So you can get restored to Harlem for that much. $2,499 U.S. dollars.
    49:56
    This is actually a photo of a singer. I forget her name, but she's – Yeah, but you have it in the notes. Yeah. I've never heard of this person. Do you have it? I'm not a fan, but I'm not. Okay. Singer Alyssa White-Gluz from band Arch Enemy. Yeah. I didn't know that was like, I just thought it was like a, not a generic person, but I didn't know it was like a known, a quote unquote known person. Yeah. Sorry all you Arch Enemy fans. I'm not kidding. I watched a video of, this would definitely be music for Nick Lane. If you like. Is this screaming? Yeah. Oh yeah. A woman screaming and growling? Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. We're going to upgrade your football mix, Metallica, to Arch Enemy. I'm good. So we can just, some of these are a little hot. So, you know, viewer warning. It's going to get hotter on the next one, but this is ancient. So, yeah, this middle of the play field here, it's a very, just straight up tasteless stuff. It's just bad. If you want to. Zoom in. I can't see it, Coven. No, I'm not zooming in. We're just going to scroll through these. If you want, you can go check them out yourself.
    51:06
    But there's like the apron decals and targets. Oh, God. We can't wait. Oh, my God, they're still there. Inked, yeah, the side art. And there's a topper of just some girl that has, like, tribal art or whatever. So, there you go. That's inked. Let's go to – I mean, it's like I guess they're catering to the tattoo shops who want to advertise other people's art and can also do a conversion of Harlem Globetrotters. Got it. Nailed that market. You guys are great. Definitely in the market they're going for. Listen, I don't care that they want to put, you know, quote-unquote sexy women on it or whatever. Like, that's fine. Whatever, right, the sex appeal. I don't care. Whatever. That's fine. I'm more or less just thinking about the, like, are you trying to sell a lot of these? You know, like, I'm just trying to think this is not a theme that's going to sell a lot of conversion kits. Like, you need to appeal to a larger audience who would actually do this. This is a small, small audience of people. I'm speculating here. So that's what's confusing to me more than anything. And Harlem Globetrotters is a game everybody loves. People love that game. They're not going to convert that game.
    52:23
    Yeah. I don't know. All right. Well, I guess we've got to show the other one now, too. That's not it. We've got to go back over here.
    52:33
    Yeah. As the Girl Geek said, the Playmate makes more sense. Like, okay, you're basically updating the theme of that existing one, right? Like, it's one to update the ballet playboy. Yeah. You just update the Playmate. Okay, different art, updated. Okay, that at least makes sense. It's along the lines of the same theme, right? Like, fine, fine. I mean, if you have a belly Playboy and you want to, I'll say that. I mean, I guess who have maybe a belly Playboy still want it to be that Playboy branding, though. Like, I don't know. That at least makes some sense. The Harlem one.
    53:18
    If Playboy isn't slutty enough for you, you got Playmate. It's got the fuzzy handcuffs here. She's got no pants on. Got diamonds in there. God.
    53:30
    Oh, the play field on this one is horrendous. Let's go. Let's move it. Let's see it. Oh, God. The lips. The lips are, they're offensive. They are. This is terrible. Well, the lips just, they're not offensive. It's just offensive from, like, a graphic designer perspective. It's terrible. Yeah, that's the offensive part. All right, I'm not looking at that anymore.
    53:54
    Play me. Yeah. Oh, God. It's just so bad. It's just so bad, the art. Like, it's just, you can make a play field with, like, sexy women on it or whatever, like, but, like, not just this Photoshop shit. I'm offended by it. It's just the poor quality. The butt on the front of the figure. Oh, now we're talking, Kevin. Look at that. Look at that and the diamond. Oh, my God. Yep, in case you don't get the message. Oh, man. Yeah.
    54:19
    There you go. That's Playmate. It's Wolfman Fest. Let's go full XXX and go home. Like, you're right, Wolfman. They're half-assing it. Like, no pun intended. If you're going to do this, just go all in.
    54:30
    My Lord. All right. That makes my Baywatch look classy. That's right. He just put the color DMD in. I have to hop on Baywatch. He pretty much dominates that thing. There's a lot of bikini butts in my DMD, though, too. Yeah, well, it's Baywatch. I can see it in full color. They have a theme. That's right. Theme integration. All right. So that's the end of our news. We can do some game room updates.
    54:56
    Yeah. So I got a Guns N' Roses. That was pretty cool. I unboxed it. You can watch me unbox it on YouTube. 15,000 people have watched me take that out of a box, Nick. What do you think about that? I love taking shit out of a box. More people have watched. I make a channel taking the shit out of a box. Start buying games, box it, put it in a box, out of the box. Yeah. I'm sorry I've ever taken a game out of a box and never hooked up cameras. Is this right? You're right. It's a really missed opportunity for you.
    55:23
    So that was cool. Well, the cool thing about that was, like, so they shipped me the first one that ever left the factory, and I hadn't seen any pictures of it or anything like that. So I got to take a brand-new pinball machine out of the box that I had never seen before. So to have the opportunity to do that was really kind of like a once-in-a-lifetime kind of thing. Is it on loan still, or do you officially own it yet?
    55:47
    Technically still on loan, so I will officially own it eventually, though. Oh, all right. It's cute. It's there. There you go. There's Kevin's verdict for you. It's a keeper.
    56:01
    Yeah, so I got Guns N' Roses. The other day I updated the code on Jurassic Park. So everybody loves having the movies play when they play pinball so they can watch DVDs on their screen. Now I can do that. I can watch the same clips of the movie over and over on my screen. Hallelujah, the game has transformed. it's so much more amazing now because it's got movie clips in it. Not really, but it's kind of cool. It's a fun little thing to do just because it's there.
    56:31
    Shout out to the folks on Pinside who have been putting that together. What's that? What do you have that does the movie clips? There's a code update. Folks on Pinside have spliced together video clips and audio clips from the movie on Jurassic Park. So it's got like the real movie clips. and movie audio too which is cool I think the audio is a bigger has a bigger impact for me because I thought McCullough has to be so cheesy and the music was kind of like it was okay but it wasn't as good as something like their custom music on Ghostbusters was really good and fit the theme very well and kind of hinged back to the original movie score but this with like the actual like cinematic audio throughout it is really cool so is that update would you say like it's a definitely recommend for Jurassic Park owners? I would recommend at least the audio upgrade. And if you're going to do it, you might as well get the video clips if you're liking it too. But I actually really like the display artwork they did for Jurassic Park. So that was kind of like, whatever, I could take it or leave it, putting the movie clips in there. I like the 3D animations they did for that. So what I did was, so with this, you have to use SD cards to update the code. So I kept the one with just the audio update on it, and I have one with the audio and the video. So if I want to swap it, I can just pop the SD card out and make it audio only and go back to the other ones.
    57:55
    Ready. What else have I been doing? A couple fixes. Because despite being the only one that plays my games, things still break. So I put the – this wasn't as much of a fix as like a preventative thing. I put the guard on the black pearl. And you need to do this, Nick, before yours breaks. What's that? there's a service update for pirates where you get a little guard that goes. So when the upticker kicks the ball up to the black roll play field, it can hit the opto up there and smash it. How hard is it? So will JGP send this out for free? You just write to them or something? You just pay for shipping. Yeah, it's like $8 for shipping. And is this a fix I can do on my own during quarantine? Oh, man. I don't know. I think you can do it.
    58:41
    You don't have to lose the play field. You just pull it out into, like, the service position. Okay. Pull it straight out. And it's, like, one or two screws on the top. You don't have to take the pearl off. Lucky it hasn't happened yet, though. Yeah. Okay, cool. I would recommend doing that.
    58:56
    And then my dialed-in trapdoor I've been having some issues with, but I finally got that tweaked and working thanks to Ron Hallett of the Slam Tilt Podcast. I watched his video about tweaking the trapdoor on that and finally got it. So what happened was it had been working fine for years since I had it. And then one day it just stopped working, and I opened it up and saw the screw had fallen out of the one coil. So when I put the screw back in, I hadn't, like, positioned the coil exactly where it had been. There's, like, a bracket where the latch comes down and holds it.
    59:32
    So you have to get that just right. And to help that, there's this little tab you can bend over to kind of keep the plate that the coil pulls in, if that makes sense. Keep that in place where it needs to be so it has enough strength to pull that down but hold it in place just enough. So check that video out. It's on their YouTube channel, the Slamtail Podcast channel. And that will help you out. And put a little loctite on that. Screw if you got it out, too. So that's what I did, and it's working good. oh I also got on the video game side arcade side I got for my Neo Geo MBS I got the Neo SV Pro which is a flash cart that lets me put all sorts of games on the cabinet so I've been playing some cool stuff that I haven't been able to play before like Metal Slug 5 and what was I playing like NOM 1975 that's cool just checking out all sorts of neat stuff on there so that's been a cool upgrade there. I sold some of my other carts and picked that up.
    60:31
    Here's some perspective. We talked about the Jurassic Park, or the topper for Elvira, which is $1,000. This product was $600 plus shipping,
    60:43
    and the video game community was losing their minds about how expensive it was. Not a bunch of risk-gets hobby, huh? Right, which, when you consider Neo Geo games themselves run like $200 to $300 per cart.
    60:59
    It's really not that expensive in the scope of collecting Neo Geo stuff. But in the scope of collecting video game stuff, it is very expensive. Again, it's more than, like, buying a PS5 or an Xbox Series X.
    61:14
    But I was like, I should introduce these people to Pinball. They would lose their minds. Yeah, they would. Yeah, seriously. Exactly. So that's been it for my game room updates. So what have you been working on, Nick?
    61:28
    Well, like I said, I can't work on pinball machines, so I've got a couple machines down. Both my Jersey Jack games are technically playable but down. I've got an upkicker problem on, like, the posts by the chest on Pirates. It's not going up, so the game's arguably playable. But I don't – I'm, like, a purist. I will not play a game if there's a function in the game not working because I feel like no matter what score I get, everything's invalid, right? It's just I can't help but focus on the issue. That's a me problem. And then my trap door, I've had a lot of problems with it. Right before COVID hit, a local collector was trying to help me fix it because it's just giving me problems. And then COVID hit. And so, yeah, that's down. My big buck hunter is down. So I've got games going down, but that's why you have 14 games in your house, people, because you never know when a pandemic is going to hit. That's right. You've got to have backers. We learned a good lesson here. That's right. I just shrug it off and I move on. I'll play one of my other 14 games. That's right. I'm going to have to have, like, a team of pinball techs come over by the time we emerge sometime in 2021 to get my games up and running. That Pirates post-foul is probably just a loose screw under the play field. Possibly. Yeah. That happened on mine at one point. I can't, like, that's. Yeah, because you can't lift your play field up. If I'm stealing, I can't lift it up. I mean, yeah, some of these problems, it's not, I joke about having another don't fix things, but some, I wouldn't mind working on it or trying it. I literally can't. Yeah. And I don't want to do a pulley system. I don't want to get a lifter. It's easier for me just to kind of forget about it and just take a break from playing it. The games will still be there when, you know, we're back to normal. Yeah. I'm glad I can work on my games because I enjoy doing it. And it's a rare opportunity to, like, everything works. And, like, it can keep working because I'm not going to host League for a while. So when something goes down, it's a, you know, sometimes you can take a little bit of time to get the parts you need. but you have the best, you have the best pinball setup of anybody I know, like in terms of just getting pinball games in and out, like it's perfect. And I think my collection would be different or my approach or interest would be a little bit different if I had like your setup, if I can even during COVID be able to move games in and out without requiring somebody's help, being able to work on games, it would just be different. But maintenance on things drives me nuts. Like it's just a personality thing. Like, I just, like, fuck, I just want to play and enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. So when it goes down, it's just, it's more of a headache just because I can't do anything with it. And it's easier for me to forget about it. There you go.
    64:01
    Any other game room updates? Well, you got your, like, auxiliary game room you're in right now, right? Yeah, dude, I've been going crazy with, like, PC gaming. So I don't know if I got a, I mentioned it last time, but I've just got a total setup. I've been just playing PC games like crazy, like after like 16 years of not playing like none. So, I mean, I've been playing VR games on PC, but I didn't even have like a desk to play PC games. I had played console games like a scrub during the period of time. You know, I grew up on PC, and I grew up on the PC in the 90s and remember playing the original Doom all the way to like 2004, and I just stopped because of life and other things. So I'm back to the master race, and I've just wasted 16 years of my life. So I'm going at it hard, man. I've been playing this game, Hunt Showdown, which is like one of my all-time favorite games that I discovered a couple months ago. So if anybody plays that game on PC, hit me up on Steam. My name's VR Gaming Podcast. We'll play. I love that game. I'm always looking for people to play with. So that's my game room update. Okay.
    65:04
    With that, oh, I will say I have a PlayStation 5 on order, too. So that was one of the other things I did this month. Are you in Xbox or just PlayStation? Just PlayStation for now. I'm thinking Xbox once Halo hits, probably. Okay. I'm not going to get a new console. This is, like, the first Xbox I'm not getting. You're going straight up PC from now on, huh? Dude, my, like, my headphones that I bought and, like, the DAC amp for the headphones and my fancy mic was like the price of a new Xbox Series X Like I going nuts with like just the quality of this and just like I can go back to console I'm done. So the thing, like, I always like just so, like, I work on a computer all day. And when I'm not working, I want to just, like, kick back on the couch with a controller on the big screen, not have to worry about updates or anything like that. Well, you still have to kind of worry about updates on consoles these days. But, no, like, there's no, like, oh, I have to configure my controller, blah, blah, blah. So that's what keeps me going back to consoles. Like, I just want that separate experience. I want the different experience. Yeah, and I know we've had this conversation before, and I was with you, like, 100%. I mean, those are, like, words that have come out of my mouth. And then just playing, like, certain games or, like, games that I would have played on the console and playing on this, like, I can't go back to using a controller anymore. Like, Ignorance was kind of bliss when I got used to it, and I can't go back to, like, 60 frames a second a game. I've got to have, like, 144, right? Like, I've got to have, like, the best possible graphics out there, and I don't know, man. I just can't go back. I know this is not a console PC show, but there's a lot of gamers here, so you know what we're saying. Kevin and I are divided on the console PC. We never used to be, but now we are, so there you go. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Goddamn pandemic, you know? That's right. Drawing lines between friends. That's right. I thought I knew the guy, and then he starts playing on PC. Yeah. All right. So that brings us to our final wrap-up finale, grand finale segment of this podcast. It's the Nick Lane New Inbox Pinball Experience. Here we go. Here we go, ladies and gentlemen. I'm going to get my popcorn out, and Nick's going to take the lead on this. I'll jump in here and there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to take the lead. You're like the moderator, right? You're going to keep this on the rails. And Kevin saw the notes I typed up for this, so it's not my usual off-the-cuff rant, per se. I try to give myself some rails to go on. But it would probably go into some kind of profanity-laced tirade at some point because this is an emotional issue for me.
    67:47
    And this is going to be highlighted on YouTube. We're going to clip this because I think this is an important conversation. and it's probably going to have a click-baity title like, Watch This Before You Buy a New Pinball Machine.
    67:59
    But this is something that Kevin and I have talked about, I've talked about wanting to do a video on this since probably February of 2020. I'll also say that if things get better, like, we will provide an update to this video, right, if things get better. And the goal of this channel and streaming is always to help people in the pinball hobby. I mean, that is the 100% main motivation for doing this, and this is what this is geared towards. So I'll start off just by saying that this comes from somebody, myself, who has over 10 years of pinball buying experience. I've been buying new in-box pinball machines for 10 years now, and every single new in-box pinball machine that I've bought has had issues out of the box. I've bought six new in-box Stern games and two Jersey Jack machines.
    68:57
    And the major catalyst for why we're doing this video now is because of the chipping play field issue. And this is an issue that Stern games have and Jersey Jack machines have. So I was on Pinside earlier. There's a thread from well over a year ago that's current. It has over 6,000 posts on this. It's a big deal that's affecting a lot of people. I will say I've seen this on Spooky Games as well. Okay, thank you. All right, perfect. And, you know, in talking about, I mentioned the thread I'm going to talk about today. People are like, that's great. But I hope you're going to talk about not just bash stern or be anti-stern. We know that Jersey Jacks is a sponsor. It's like, look, look, look. Yes, they're a sponsor. I'm not going to lie about this. I'm not here to slamster, and I'm here to help new buyers. I'm here to raise the awareness. I mean, my goal of all this is to set realistic expectations to somebody who might be buying their first new in-box pinball machine because we get questions quite a bit. In fact, this week somebody asked us questions about buying, emailed us and buying a new pinball machine. Number one is helping people, right, setting expectations, what I've learned the last 10 years. Number two is trying to use the platform that we have of our podcast and stream to really elevate this issue and hopefully enact some change from both Jersey Jack and Stern. So this might lean a little bit more Stern, but it's not because I'm anti-Stern. In fact, I've bought more Stern pinball machines than Jersey Jack pinball machines. I've bought six from my personal collection in the last 10 years. my business that I'm in with other partners we've bought I think over 10 so that's a lot of Stern pinball machines and as a matter of fact I've entertained the idea of buying Avengers as I talked about earlier in the podcast with Kevin and if you're watching on YouTube this is in podcast format it's done live so you don't have fancy video editing right now so you're going to be off the cuff how am I doing so far am I on the rails you're doing it you're setting the stage alright so this is a big deal So I am not buying a new embossed pinball machine until the issues are fixed. I'm not buying a Jersey Jack pinball machine until they fix that issue, and I'm not buying a Stern pinball machine until they fix that issue. So who knows, Kevin, I'm going to get a new embossed pinball machine, which is unfortunate. I hate to say that. This definitely affects the hobby significantly for me.
    71:30
    Let's see. And before I start getting into what the heart of this is, I just want to say, I'm sure no one from either company is going to come on the podcast, but happy to invite a rep from Jersey Jack or Stern to talk about the issue and what they're doing to address it, right? I mean, it could be a positive PR move. I'm guessing nobody will take us up on that, but you're more than welcome to come on and talk about that with us, okay? Because I'm interested in seeing this get better because I want to buy more pinball machines. I'm a Jersey Jack fan, and I'm a Stern fan. I love the design teams. I love the games. I just want to see it get better. These things are expensive. It's a lot of money for me, and I don't want to be disappointed. So what are we talking about here?
    72:14
    This is – the heart of it is this cracking or chipping of the play field. People have been posting for a couple years now on Jersey Jack releases and Stern releases that, especially by the posts, the actual play field is cracking and chipping to the point where not only is the clear coming off the play field, but the art is coming off as well. To me, the playfield art, you know, when the art actually cracks and peels off the playfield, is probably the worst thing that can happen to a machine because it is incredibly hard to fix, right? You can have a pinball machine where you get it out of the box and the flippers are broken. Well, that sucks, don't get me wrong, but it's something that can be fixed relatively easy, painlessly, relatively inexpensively.
    73:05
    You have a switch that's not adjusted. You can fix that as well. Fixing a playfield that's cracked or chipped is not easy whatsoever.
    73:16
    I've talked to some collectors who have done playfield swaps. I talked to them today. I've asked our Discord. I posted on Pinside. And the general consensus is on, like, just Stern, for example, I imagine a Jersey Jack machine would take even longer because they actually have boys on them and stuff, and they're actually packed.
    73:36
    A stern pinball machine has been estimated 20 to 30 hours. Now, somebody might be listening on here who does a swap, you know, every week, might be able to get that down. But, you know, somebody that I talk to and feedback, 20 to 30 hours. And that's somebody who knows how to do that. You have to have a rotisserie. You have to have the tools.
    73:54
    It's a 20 to 30-hour time fix. Or if you're going to pay somebody to do it, the estimate from somebody local would be $500 to $750. Other people have said $1,000. So not an easy fix versus other things. I also want to differentiate that a lot of times we hear people have issues with dimples in play field. Dimpling is when you can see, like, little craters in the clear coat of the play field. It almost looks like a golf ball kind of size, a little divot, all over the play field, and that's because there's a steel ball rolling over the play field, and it will create kind of a little divot and crater. That's something I noticed when I first got a pinball machine, and you'll notice it immediately because you'll start seeing these dimples. But over time, you'll get so many dimples that the play field will sort of look flat again.
    74:44
    I just want to differentiate that. That, to me, is not a major issue in my book. I understand that somebody who doesn't want to see the dimples there or is upset with it, I get it, legitimate to be upset. If somebody says, do you want a dimpled play field or non-dimpled, I'm always going to say the non-dimpled. But that's not a major issue to me where I'm asking Stern or Jersey Jack to correct it. I can live with that because the art is still there. And a lot of times you can't even see the dimples over time, and a lot of times it has to be the right lighting conditions. It's not a big deal just to me. I will say, too, that I have, like, my – so my Addams Family is clear-coded, so that's looking good. But I have the original Diamond Plate play field on Doctor Who down there. and it's got dimpling on it. So for the people who are like, Bally Williams games never dimpled. No, they did. Maybe not as much. Maybe the clear coat was better back then, but they still did. Or they just have so many dimples on it that it doesn't look as pronounced. I mean, when you first get a machine, like your first 100 games, it's going to be super pronounced, the dimples. You're going to notice them. And then the next 100 a little bit less and a little bit less and a little bit less. Right. And then you have to, like, really go looking for them at that point. I think that's important to say. So I think I did a good job of kind of highlighting the problem. You know, art is very important on a play field. Removing the art, and that's a big deal. And it's happening quickly. I mean, this is not something that's happening, you know, over years. It's happening right out of the gate.
    76:11
    Mine happened, I'll talk about my specific issue, but mine happened on my Deadpool at less than 200 games is when I started noticing this. It could have happened sooner. this is something that is new as well it seems to be something that's developed over the last few years and it's something that continues Stern's newest game at the time of this recording is Avengers and it's cracking and tripping on Avengers, we're seeing pooling issues, how would you describe pooling Kevin? it's like you put the playfield post and you screw it down onto the play field and then just the clear kind of bubbles up around the post a little bit. Yeah, it doesn't look good. There's the aesthetics.
    76:58
    And the issue of pooling is that the fear that it's going to start cracking and the art's going to pull off the play field. I saw the first Avengers cracking when Mike Castleman posted on, I think it was on Pinball Enthusiasts on Facebook. He showed his Avengers and it just tripped right off. He's like, this is three games. and that's disappointing because this problem has been going on release after release, it's not like when, you remember when Stern switched from printing right in the cabinet the art to having decals, like when they did that switch I think one of the first games was Transformers and the decals started peeling and that sucks, but it's somewhat understandable because they're going to something new and they made a mistake and now it really hasn't happened again, it's been better the problem with the The chipping issue is that it's happening title after title after title.
    77:48
    And it didn't happen in games that I'm aware of in the 90s. You're not seeing this on – I don't see this on Bally's, Williams in the 90s. I don't see it on older Sterns from the 2000s. It's just this recent issue. And I'm not going to get into why it's happening. I don't care why it's happening. That's not a consumer problem. I care about the companies fixing it. So who cares why it's happening? It just needs to be fixed. It's not for the consumer to solve that problem, my point.
    78:16
    And Stern knows. I'm going to pick on Stern in this case a little bit. Stern must know that there's a problem because do you have my picture, Kevin, of Sopranos? Yeah. I want to give a specific example. Some of these things might be out of order. Right here. There's Sopranos. So you see on this picture, this is a metal wire guide, right, a ball guide. And where it goes into that play field, there's a washer around it. All right. And in front of that is that kind of blue thick padding post. Now, the ball hits that a lot. And if that washer wasn't there, the kind of screw or the metal piece that goes in the play field will be banging against the play field and the clear coat, and it would eventually cause chipping or damage. So this is a game, Sperance came out in 2005. Sperance must have known that this is the way you protect a play field because they did it at the time. The issue is they're not doing that. So my Deadpool, which we can show a picture, Kev. You got the Deadpool? Yeah, right there.
    79:26
    Okay, so you can see on here, this is the exact same kind of setup, as Soprano. So you see that there's a washer there. That's something I added after I noticed the damage, after about 200 plays. I noticed that the clear was starting to chip there, and I said, Jesus Christ, this isn't good. I looked up why it was happening and realized that it's because no washer on this game. So I was able to mitigate some of the damage by putting a washer there. Hopefully it doesn't get worse, but you can see that it's down to the bare wood there, which is incredibly frustrating when you spend over $5,000 on a new game, and this could have been easily prevented with, you know, a one-set washer. But for whatever reason, CERN, who knows this can happen, feels not to do this. And what makes it even worse is Deadpool came out. I got this game in November of 2019. So Deadpool, they've been manufacturing Deadpools for a year. It's not like the first batches they didn't put it on. They've known about this problem. This is a widespread problem. If you have a Deadpool, all right, this is happening to your game. It just is. And, you know, Cliffy goes so far as to make a protector for it now, which he wants to put a protector on a game.
    80:44
    You're covering up the art. So that's frustrating in and of itself because, in some ways, I did the right thing by waiting a year for them. You know, I wasn't the beta tester. I let, like, the first round of problems possibly happen. They still didn't care. They're still manufacturing the game that way. I think that's what really upsets me and sets me off. Now, we'll get into some of the what I call stupid defenses of this issue. Inevitably, if you go to Facebook or Pinside and this discussion comes up, most people, rightfully so, are upset about it. They say it's unacceptable. But you always get kind of the apologies for either Stern or Jersey Jack for this issue. Some of the stupid things that I hear in my mind is it's normal, right? It's just normal wear and tear. First of all, it's not. Look at games from the 90s. That's not normal wear and tear. Yes, games from the 90s have wear on it in certain areas like the shooter lane, but that's not the play field art coming off of it. Yes, if you look at a scoop, they have some wear on it, but that's literally just digging through the wood because that ball's gone through there 100 times and you can put a cliffy there. The actual separation of the art from the play field, that's a new problem. So that's not normal. And I can tell you why it's not normal. And I know that Stern knows it's not normal and must be Jersey Jack for that matter because Stern will send out a blank play field to you if you complain to them. Do you think that if Stern thought this was normal, they would send out a blank play field? No, they would say, hey, that's a normal part. That happens on our product. They don't say that, though. So they know it's an issue. They know that you have a valid problem, and their remedy is to send out a play field, a blank one. We'll talk about how that's kind of an unacceptable solution. It's in my book.
    82:32
    We're getting that to my notes. There we go. You set it all up. All right. They'll send you – so another defense is, hey, look, if you have a problem, they'll just send you a replacement play field. And we talked about, first of all, the cost and time. It's a 20- to 30-hour project if you have the capability to do it. Congratulations, you just spent over $5,000 for a new game. Oh, you've got an issue? Hey, put that play field in there. Problem solved, right? problem solved, you've got a play field. Well, now you've got to spend 20 to 30 hours every time just getting the game to look like how it should have been looking out of the box. Or you can pay somebody $1,000 to do it, move around a 250-pound pinball machine and wait several weeks to play it.
    83:10
    That's not a solution. That's offloading the problem to the consumer rather than taking responsibility as the manufacturer for that problem. Um, so when I first, uh, I'll, I'll get to why the blank play field isn't a fix. Actually, let me, I'll jump into that. Um, the blank play field is not a fix in my book because, um, there's a reason that people buy a new pinball machine rather than a used. So I could have bought a new, I could have bought a used Deadpool and I probably would have saved $500 by doing so. Might've come up with some mods. I could have looked over it and seen if there's any existing issues with it. Right. And passed up the opportunity. No, and my business owns two Deadpools, so I kind of yanked one from location and offered my business partners to buy that one, but I didn't because I wanted kind of a perfect example of a Deadpool. I wanted a Deadpool that's not going to have thousands of plays on it, one that I'm only playing or friends or league nights, right, one that I can control by taking proper care of it, by cleaning it and waxing it.
    84:14
    So that's why a lot of us buy new. And the problem is these new games are often worse than a used one. Let somebody else be the test subject and buy a new box game. You go and buy a used one. But that's not good for anybody. That's not good for Stern if suddenly all these buyers go and they start buying used games because there's less new games being sold. That's a problem. So that's not the real solution to them. But there's also kind of a call of the peace of mind fallacy of sending a blank play field that's not populated. When I had an issue with my first game, Iron Man, ten years ago, and you'll see the horrific picture soon enough, I had to get Chris Marquette to come out from Coin Taker. He was passing through Buffalo. He looked at it. He had to verify. It was like a fight with Stern, right? Eventually, Stern sent me a blank play field. And after that fight, I felt like I won. So I've got this blank play field. but I even went to get it clear-coated a second time. This is my first pinball machine as my baby.
    85:13
    Well, yeah, it gave me peace of mind that I had this play field that if my issues with the Ironman play field got worse, I can just pop it in there. But, again, I went back to the realization that it's going to take 20, 30 hours. I don't have the skills to do it, so I'll have to pay somebody $1,000. Why do I have to do that? Why is the problem offloaded to me? So a blank play field doesn't really solve the problem for most of us. Unless you just love doing play field swaps, then, my God, Just go buy new unboxed play fields, complain, and you can be swapping games out left and right. Or you can do mine for free. The choice is yours.
    85:47
    The other things that people will say in defense of the cracking is, you're lucky Stern is sending out a new play field.
    85:55
    Am I? I just wanted a game that worked. I didn't want to be doing a play field swap. Now, the ideal thing that when I reached out to Stern about my Deadpool was I was upset. I'm worried that this problem is going to get worse. It might not seem like a big deal now. We don't know what's going to happen over time. I would like a populated play field, right? Not a blank one, a populated one so I can swap it out. But even that's not – even that's disappointing. I don't want to go through the hassle of even swapping that out. It's far easier, right? It probably can be done in half an hour. I just want to play the damn thing. That's why I bought new again. So I can just enjoy it and not deal with the problem. I don't want to put together my own demo machine. Do you want to jump in, Deanna, any commentary questions? How am I doing? Yeah, well, the girl who made a good point, and I thought of this earlier, is like, yeah, they send you a new play field, but is the play field any different than the one that's already in there? Or are you going to spend all this time and effort putting it in and have the same issues with it? I mean, you could get it clear-coded again and then finally put it in, but, again, that's more on you. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. Where is the guarantee? Why does this play feel differently? There's some things that I could do is, like, you know, put a washer in the get-go. But I've seen pictures of Deadpool where there's other areas that are chipping. So it's not just that area. That's a great point. Again, it's not a real solution, necessarily. What other excuses do we have? Oh, I got into a fight a couple months ago with somebody online who was just, like, the biggest defender of a company sending out a faulty product. You've got to love him. You'd think he'd work for one of these companies. these people, this has something to do with the fact, oh, these people just complain and they get their blank playfield and then they just sell it. Yeah. And maybe they do sell it. You know why? Because I'm not going to spend, I can only have the capacity to swap it out, and I'm not going to pay somebody a thousand dollars. So you know what I'm going to do with that fucking Deadpool playfield? I'll probably sell it so I at least get a few hundred dollars for my broken game. But here's the thing. My motivation is not to complain so I can sell it. I just want a game that isn't chips. If I wanted to save money, I would have bought use and saved $500. I would have saved more than I would have gotten from selling a play field. Do you see the scenario here? This is not some scam. This is bullshit. All right, there we go. Am I getting sufficiently fired up? There you go. Now you're doing it. Oh, God. All right. I'm out of water already. Oh, man. All right.
    88:20
    Another one. This is a good one. This is probably the best part right here is the defense of this. This is really what gets me going. Oh, yeah. Somebody said, this is another defense, another stupid defense of cracking, why, you know, we shouldn't be upset about cracking. This is a commercial machine. It's a commercial machine. Right, Kevin? Sure. We're home consumers just buying a commercial machine. First of all, why the fuck should a commercial machine fall apart? Like, is that a thing in the business? Like, you know, you sell a printer to an office and it breaks. You're like, ah, it's a commercial machine. You know, if it was for your home, it would work, but. Aren't most commercial products more robust than products you would have in your home generally? Correct. Yeah, so that's why it's a stupid defense. Second of all, Stern is now a lifestyle brand. And Jersey Jack's selling to the home market as well. The home market is huge and booming. So that's just bullshit. That's just one of the worst defenses ever. And then last but not least, I want to thank somebody on Pinside for reminding me of this one today.
    89:19
    The other defense, it doesn't affect gameplay. I don't complain about dimples and these minor issues because it doesn't affect gameplay. We already talked about dimples and stuff. We're talking about the play field are separating. So if you're going to say that everything is okay that falls apart in a pinball machine so long as it doesn't affect gameplay, that means the cabinet can be damaged, the trans light can fall apart and be scraped up, the animations on the screen can be all janky and hard to see. But as long as it flips and it plays, Stern can just do their worst. That's bullshit. I mean, that's one of the worst things, and clearly whoever says this doesn't really think this through. Yes, God bless you. Seriously, God bless you. You're a better person than me if you can tolerate your $5,000-plus machine falling apart on art, which these artists spend all this time working on because sometimes, honest to God, art sells these machines, right? We talk about art and how part of the art package is when it pulls off. Yeah, of course it's important to people. Of course you don't want to spend that kind of money and see it pull off. If it's falling apart, also you've got to ask yourself this, if it's falling apart after 100 games, 200 games, or three plays like Mike Castleman's, what does that say for the game lasting 10 years? You know, I buy these games new for my private collection because I want to keep it for a long time, maybe decades. I don't know. I don't want it falling apart, though. It shouldn't fall apart because it is a commercial machine that should be able to stand up to so much abuse in public that my game, which I might only play a few hundred times a year, here is shit that I do not have any issues. So here's a counterpoint. I like this. I'm glad you're here.
    91:00
    You're taking a steel ball and smashing it around on a wooden play field. Eventually things are going to wear out.
    91:07
    NS Pinball made this point in chat. What's a reasonable number of plays, amount of time to start to see wear and tear? It's going to happen. It's a physical game. You know, anything you do physically, I drive my car off the lot and I get a chip in the paint.
    91:21
    It's a result of you having used the product, right? Sure. Okay. So that's probably the – that's a really good defense. That's like kind of a steel man argument against it. Okay. Let's talk about that. First of all, they've been clear-coating play fields for 30 years now, nearly 30 years. And this is a recent phenomenon of the shipping issue where, again, the clear and the art on the game has just skipped right off. All right, so we know that games can be made in a way that that doesn't happen. We know certain other things about things. If there's a scoop that's unprotected, eventually the wood will start wearing away, like the actual entire wood. But it doesn't chip necessarily. The chipping is a bigger problem. We know certain things wear and tear on a pinball machine. You know, you have to rebuild your flippers. You've got to change the rubbers. These are things that are acceptable wear and tear. Again, if the flippers start wearing and tearing, if the rubbers fall off, Stern is not going to necessarily replace that, right? Right? That's normally accepted. Stern has come out and said dimples are normal. All right? So they're not going to replace that. We know what's defined as normal wear and tear. The shipping isn't by virtue of what I just said with the, you know, decades of pinball machines not shipping. We know that that's preventable. And also the fact that Stern will send out another play field if you have this issue. So they're acknowledging that it's a defect.
    92:49
    They just aren't. They haven't come out and said that's normal. We consider this normal wear and tear. Now, after this video, maybe that's where they're standing instead of fixing the problem, which they've just lost a lot of buyers.
    92:59
    But that's not normal wear and tear. So that's how I'd answer it. Do you buy that cap? Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, because, well, and there's, you know, you said you didn't want to, like, get into solving the problem or why this is happening. But the speculation, and I saw, like, Zombie Eddie post on Facebook about this where it's like, yeah, the chemicals in these playfields have changed over the years due to regulations. You can't put the same, you know, toxic chemicals on a playfield that you used to be able to for the health and safety of the people producing the playfields. fields. So it used to be, it used to be a problem or used to not be a problem. Then it was a problem. I think, I think the biggest problem is like, they know it's a problem. They're not acknowledging it, even though there might be as easy of a fix as like a 2 cent washer under a rail that we know will help prevent this. Right.
    93:50
    Correct. Correct. So I am a hundred percent confident. I think this is something that most people would agree to that if this was a priority for Stern and Jersey Jack, right? This was really important to them. They could solve it. We're seeing other pinball manufacturers come in and they acknowledge the problem, right? They're looking at the market. This is one thing that as much as I make fun of Deep Brew and for the crazy stupid things that they do, they at least, this is one thing they listen to you and they're trying to solve, right? So other manufacturers are looking at it and saying, yes, we hear that's problem and here's our solution to it. So this is not this trying to send something into space, right? Like this is just preventing a play field from cracking. Yes, maybe things have changed in terms of regulations, including like the clearance stuff. I don't care. This is not a consumer problem.
    94:42
    I am confident that if this is important enough to the pinball manufacturers, that they're feeling a pain from lack of sales or whatever, that they would address it and they would fix it. Like you said, Kevin, the solution for this might just be washers.
    94:55
    And we've seen that, that solutions – my shipping has essentially stopped when I put a washer in there. My shipping would not have happened there if there was a washer there. So I think that there's maybe a more elegant solution in terms of maybe the way they rethink what we do with play fields or how play fields are made, but at the minimum just throwing some washers there. And that's not something that the consumer should have to do. Oh, we recommend you put washers in. I'm like, no, it's hard to get, like, just putting that washer in where the dead pool is, but probably a half an hour of just taking things apart. It's not an easy thing to do. It's easy when you're at the factory and just putting washers there and ensuring that you've looked at all the points on the play field where this could be an issue and dealing with it that way. That's one thing. I mean, the pooling seems to be another issue potentially. I think washers would solve that as well.
    95:44
    But, yeah, this is a problem that can be solved. I was looking at, so before the show, I was going through my games and kind of looking at the rails, the ball guides, like where you have that issue on that tool. And on Tron, they actually have the guide kind of like, it screws into the play field, there's a little piece that comes out and then it like curves up and like where the rail is on the play field, it doesn't even touch the play field. It's like off the play field. So there's no chance that it's going to dig in and chip the clear coat. So maybe the clear coat really hasn't changed in the past 10 years or so. They've just maybe for whatever cost-cutting measures or maybe there's certain instances where you're trying to fit more stuff in, and as a result you can't do that little bend anymore. I don't know. I'm not a play field designer, but they've made some sacrifices to either cut costs or make things work differently where it's putting that rail right on the play field and then that's digging in like that when it never used to. Yeah, I would argue that it's more costly for them to have this problem exist than to address it.
    96:57
    I think that's an confident thing to say. You've definitely lost new inbox buyers because let's go to that 6,000 post thread. There are people who will not buy a new inbox game anymore until it's solved, including myself, right? So you've lost me as a new inbox buyer until you guys fix it. there's also the cost of sending out these play fields. Now, I don't know the arrangement that maybe the company that they buy the play fields from, there's some clause that if, you know, these play fields are quote-unquote defective, the company gives them free. So I don't know if Stern or JGP has a cost to these play fields, but I'm guessing it is incurred on Stern. So Stern's got to ship it out. There's a cost in that. I mean, how much is it to ship a play field around? I mean, it can't be cheap. And you lose the play field. It's just easier to fix it and put a fucking washer in there, right, At the minimum.
    97:44
    So that kind of blows my mind that this is like so many pinball machines, so many new titles are coming out and still going on. I thought like once it happened, it was like, oh, shit, somebody messed up. They had a bad batch of play fields, and that's going to be it. But that's not been the case. This is still going on with both manufacturers. Well, it's got to be they have to know this is happening, right? Somebody at CERN is seeing that thread, or JJP, and they're weighing the cost and benefit, right? They saying are we losing more new and boxed buyers than it saving us to not fix this problem or not send out new play fields or not do that Because they Ghostbusters Stern sent out repopulated play fields and they were letting people do full play field swaps I think somebody in Discord said they had an LE Ghostbusters. They got the new play field, and it was like a giant waste because when they had to give the play field back to their distributor who, like, took the note boards off the bottom, drilled a hole in the play field, and threw it in the dumpster. So it wasn't worth them shipping the thing back to them for parts or whatever. I guess, you know, it's used. What are they going to do? They can't use those parts. So to them, it has to be making more money doing it the way they are now. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it.
    99:07
    You know, I think pinball is increasing in popularity. I think there's more people coming into the hobby all the time. I think people who go in the hobby tend to stay in the hobby. So, yeah, pinball sales is just going to keep on going up for a while, steadily going up. So maybe they look at it and say, yeah, we're selling more games than ever, like that article. But I don't think they realize how much they are actually still losing in terms of people not buying games and customers by not just fixing the problem. My argument is they could be making even more money, but they're not thinking about this problem correctly enough. They're making enough to make them happy and they're continuing, but it's coming to a head. It's coming to a head that this keeps on happening. Pinball people are pretty good at tolerating things in pinball machines and problems in pinball machines that they would not tolerate in a $10 product from Amazon. I can guarantee you of that. But there is a place where you draw the line, and I think this is where you draw the line because it's such a hard problem to offload onto the consumer.
    100:06
    I'll give you my perspective on it. I would not give up the opportunity to own a Pirates of the Caribbean just because it would have some playfield wear or chipping or a Jurassic Park. They're putting out amazing games. I don't regret buying them, even if they end up having wear like this on it. It's not a big enough issue to me to forego the experience, the enjoyment I get out of the game. I would much rather – I understand that it's a very expensive hobby. it's not an acceptable thing but it's for somebody like me I just want to play the game if it's like the original I think there's levels of this it's not like I saw Mike Castleman's post and I'm like yeah that sucks but it's this tiny little piece that's behind a rail that you're never going to see anyways to me like if it's out of sight it's out of mind there's probably stuff in the back of my Jurassic Park or whatever any of these games that's worn out, but I'll never see it, so I don't care.
    101:12
    Versus, I know you like to really inspect your games and make sure they're looking great. You come over and you inspect my games and see how they compare to yours.
    101:20
    So I just think, like, if I could throw a washer on and cover up a little wear that might be around a post, I'm like, that's fine. As long as it doesn't cause additional wear, that's cool with me. I'm never going to see it. It doesn't bother me that it's under there. if it's something like the original run of Wizard of Oz where in the pop bumper area they have these giant chunks of the play field popping off then yes that's a problem I agree I would not tolerate that I would insist on having a replacement play field put in or something like that yeah so there's a couple points in there first of all you know I think you're not alone in thinking that there's plenty of people that feel that way and there's plenty of people that feel the way I feel um I think you're fortunate to look at it that way because it's not stopping you from the enjoyment the way it's preventing me from getting a machine. So that's good. And like you said, there's degrees. My counterpoint to that is when you give the example of like Wizard of Oz level of shipping versus maybe some minor shipping, is that you don't know what the minor shipping is going to develop into over time when you start seeing that. That's the concern. And once it starts, that shipping can just start magnifying and getting bigger to the levels that you wouldn't tolerate or it would really bother you. Right. Right? That's what concerns me. Like, yeah, sure, Mike Castleman's small. Mike Castleman's really popular. We love you, Mike. But his shipping is small. You can't see it. But that still sucks. That will prevent me from getting it because it pisses me off to spend all that kind of money and they don't care. And I do want to preserve these games. you know if it never spreads then that's one thing like if my Deadpool Denver gets worse then I can live with that right like I'm not like I need to burn this and sell it but my question is what is it going to look like in five years but that's what I care about I keep my games potentially for like I said decades I don't know how long yeah you have to think about it from the manufacturer perspective too though because like there's like a bazillion things that can go around in a pinball machine and And, you know, when you ship it, things are going to shake, rattle, and move. And then you have obsessive collectors going into their machines with microscopes, looking at the posts saying, oh, my God, it's pooling.
    103:38
    You know, this is, like you said, it's a relatively new issue. We don't know what the long-term implications of this are for the play field. This could be something that never ends up being a problem. But, you know, because somebody's making a huge deal out of it, you know, now the manufacturer has to be like, well, this is very, very costly for me. And maybe somebody like Stern has the resources to do something like this. But if you look at a small company like Spooky, for them to ship out a replacement play field or something is a huge cost. So it's – Which is why not just make sure that it doesn't happen. Well – Which, again, we've proven that this is a new phenomenon, that there are ways to prevent it. Right. And pooling, you know, I don't know the outcome of what happens to pooling. If pooling is just a speculation, that's like a time bomb of what's going to happen. But I'm specifically talking about actual chipping. Mm-hmm. Okay. Where it's definitely chipped. Where there's art. Right? Okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't – I'm not an expert on the pooling or what has – the pooling is like a cause to be concerned. Mm-hmm. The actual chipping and where the chip is formed, that's legit, like, down to the bare wood. That's, like, totally unacceptable to me. So say you've got, like, chipping around a star post or around a post on a pinball machine. They send you an update with a wider star post that covers it up and is going to prevent the wear from getting worse over time. Is that an acceptable solution to you?
    105:10
    So I can live with that. But I can live with that much more than it's chipped off like the Wizard of Oz point or where you see the chip developing on my Deadpool, right? I can live with that. I'm still disappointed that that seems to be their solution where they're not fixing it because it's a real problem and I want to see them fix it, right? Like I don't want to see a Band-Aid. You know, Stern at first offered me like a bottle of clear coat so I can fucking play touch-up on it. That's not a solution. And I want to go back to the car analogy, and I've seen this used before, like, oh, you drive your car around, you're going to get, you know, rocks are going to kick up on the front bumper, right? Well, there's, like, never a time when that didn't happen that I'm aware of, right? Like, it's just an acceptable, it's a known where in the fact that we know, like, rubbers are going to eventually wear on a pinball machine. You've got to replace it. My whole point is this is a new phenomenon. It doesn't have to be like this. We know it doesn't have to be like this. and they don't seem to care about fixing this. Yeah.
    106:12
    Louis in chat says I'm making excuses. I'm offering some counterpoints from a different perspective. That's good.
    106:18
    That's good. Kevin, I don't think, has had the level of problems I have had. Well, that's the other thing, too. I've been pretty lucky. Like my Jurassic Park, I've seen some that have tons of issues around that post or like the early versions had the art that went all the way up to the post and underneath everything. And I have one of the later premiums. And it's been great. I had no issues with my Jurassic Park.
    106:39
    And, you know, minimal issues on, like, pirates. I had pooling around the post, so I put the kit in to cover that up. Yeah, I did too. I put the Cliffy Protectors on because I had seen other people get wear around their scoops, dialed in. They had issues around the SIM card scoops. Everybody put protectors on those. They eventually started putting them on there too. So, yeah, I haven't had, like, massive issues like Nick has had either. So I'm sure that plays into my perspective of things as well. Yeah, no, I'm grateful for my pirates. I mean, I had the same issue. I'm glad I was able to fix it before I had any real damage. I think the game's good now. I think I stopped it and I don't have to worry about it. Yeah, but I'd be heartbroken if my favorite game had damage on it. I just would. There is an element. I'm a player, but I'm also a collector. There is an element of spending the kind of money to buy a new game that's not used for the purpose of having it in pretty much mint condition. And I totally believe, because I've seen pinball machines from the 90s when they've clear-coded, I believe you can achieve that, that that's doable, that you can have a game that's in essentially perfect condition, that you can have a play field that hasn't fallen apart. The ball shouldn't be – sorry, the ball should not be pulling up the art from the play field. That shouldn't be a thing. It's preventable if it's even just washers. It's funny because, like, games in the 80s, they didn't clear coat, and the art came all up, and they were considered, like, you know, you'd have a game in your arcade or your bar for a couple years, and that was it. You'd pick up a new game, put it in. And that was actually better for the manufacturers because they were selling more new games. When Adam's family came around and those games lasted forever and they started putting the Diamond Play play fields on, it was actually bad for the manufacturers because then they, you know, this game's still getting played. Why would I replace it? People love this.
    108:32
    So in one way, but now the market's shifted so much to the home collector where, and it's really keeping these companies afloat during the pandemic. Like, yeah, you need to start addressing these concerns because this is your major market right now. So many arcades are closed. You need to kind of start taking this more seriously and catering to the home market who is starting to demand this now that they're seeing it. Right. So I'm going to go through, because, again, the catalyst for this was the cracking. That's my biggest issue. But, again, this video is for somebody who's in the market, who's buying their first game, wondering what it's like to buy a new pinball machine. And I'm not telling somebody, don't buy a pinball machine. I'm just saying here is what I want to set realistic expectations. And we got your kind of take on it, Kevin. You're okay with this, right? You're okay, and that's great. I mean, if I can swap brains, my life would be a little bit easier maybe, right? I can settle down about this. So if you're watching this and you're thinking, oh, man, should I buy a pinball machine or shouldn't, this is a video that I'll refer people to when they ask us, right? You've got to ask yourself, how are you when you buy a product and you spend this kind of money? Are you just like, listen, I don't give a shit. I just want to play the game and be pulling off. I don't care. I'll fix any problem that comes along. I just want a pinball machine. I'm not going to let it stop me from enjoying it. then God bless you. That's fine. So here's my 10-year history of buying a pinball machine with every single one having an issue. Okay. And you can decide your level of tolerance for this. So let's start off with Iron Man. This is my baby. Got this in January 2011. It's almost going to be 10 years old. It grows up so goddamn fast.
    110:15
    Can you go to the crack first? Yes. I'm going to do this. There we go. So this is an issue that I noticed. It could be zoomed in a little bit. I don't think we can. No. I noticed this right away when I got my machine that I've never seen this on another game. I don't think. I haven't either. This is an actual crack in the – it was in the clear. Now you can see it separating down to the wood and the paint's pulling apart. It's a legit crack. It's pulling away. And that is – it's gotten worse in the ten years I have. I don't have the before and after picture right now, but it's definitely gotten worse.
    110:51
    And this was – I complained to Stern. I was really upset. This was my first pinball machine. And Stern, through the help of Cointaker, my distributor, this is why you get a good distributor, got me a replacement play field, and that pacified me for the time. I thought I won. And eventually, this problem has gotten worse. And like I said earlier in this, you know, it's a headache to spend that kind of energy, time, and money to replace it. So, unfortunately, I just have to kind of live with it. And that was one of the reasons I sold it off to Martha because I couldn't stand it after a while.
    111:21
    So, yeah, I mean, that sucks. and that problem has gotten worse over time. I don't know what that crack's going to look like 10 years from now. I just don't. Can you go to the other, the next picture of Iron Man? Yep. So this is a good example of cracking, of the playfield cracking. So you see that, those circles, those are posts in the playfield without washers under them. And this is from, you know, the first runs of Iron Man. And you can see where the playfield art has totally chipped off, and that's down to the bare wood. I assume that problem is only going to get worse. I need to put some Mylar over it. A collector was going to help me because he has some black, like, vinyl. Circles were going to cut there and try to blend it in. But that sucks. I mean, I couldn't tell you when that happened, to be honest, because it's underneath an area where you have to kind of be looking for it. So that's fortunate.
    112:16
    Stern knows this is a problem because on their newer runs of Ironman, they have washers there. And that's not an issue on the newer ones. So they fixed it in this case. They fixed it in that case. Which, again, why do they continue to do that without putting washers on when they know that that's what can happen? This is the thing that will just drive you crazy. It's a cheap, easy solution. For reference, how many plays do you have on your Ironman? You've played a lot. I have no idea. I would say probably 5,000. So this is a game that's seen a lot of play, but if you had this in an arcade, it would get similar play, too. Yeah, well, let me ask you this, Kevin. You've seen my Iron Man plenty of times. Uh-huh.
    112:54
    Am I wrong for saying that that game looks like brand new? Yeah, you take really good care of your machines. I mean, honestly, everybody who sees my Iron Man is like, this is the nicest Iron Man I've ever seen. Yeah. Like, that game looks like I took it out of the box. I will also say that I would have never noticed either one of those two things had you not pointed them out to me. I just don't focus on it like that. Now that you see it, you point it out, I'm like, oh, yeah, I see it. And, like, cool, let me play the game.
    113:23
    It's also not my game, so. And, again, that's what this video is designed for, right? Like, you need to kind of decide what kind of consumer you are and what's going to bother you and what's not going to.
    113:34
    So the other issues I had out of the box that were minor things, the misaligned flipper and pop-up were not firing easily fixed. But, again, that's the new in-box experience, my first one. Next game I got was, you don't have pictures for these, but ACDC Pro. I had an issue where they had this wire diverter from the Pops. It was like what they used on Avatar. After a couple games, the wire diverter, it's a stupid design. It was actually putting scratches into the playfield so I immediately ripped it out and the game is perfectly playable without it. Eventually Stern stopped putting it on the game, but the damage was done and that pissed me off. It just sucks.
    114:11
    Then I got an ACDC. I sold the Pro and I got a Premium. Yeah, I remember that. Efficient buying, yeah. That's when I met Kevin when I got the ACDC Pro. That was the start of that friendship. There you go. That's where the romance began. Yeah.
    114:25
    ACDC Premium. After a couple games, the Canon broke right out of the box. I had to wait for nearly a month for Stern to send me a new Canon. So brand new game, played it a couple times, Canon broke, main feature of the game, couldn't play the game for a month, it just sat there. And then, you know, that's not fun to install. I had to hire somebody to install that and pay them to. So that sucks. But, again, I would have been better off buying used from somebody who had a working game. All right, Metallica. So this is fun. The mystery scoop on Metallica has a coil mech underneath it. That completely fell bottom out of the game. All the screws fell out. The screws were stripped or something like that. So Stern actually sent me a new play field because I complained. A populated play field? Yeah. I had to fix it with, like, some – I used, like, the toothpick thing. And then also the clear was pulling off under the apron where the ball drains. Not a big deal, but they sent me a new play field because of the fact that the holes were just, the whole mech fell off, and I guess they were that concerned. So that's my second play field that I got from Stern. Again, that's probably the least of the problem. Metallica has held up well other than that. Things have been good.
    115:34
    Let's see. What's next? Walking Dead Premium. This is a fun one. Oh, yeah, I remember this one. This is, so the shooter, like the ball guide, when you plunge it, you know, Walking Dead has those kind of cool skill shot. The ball guide from the shooter lane was so misaligned that it, like, never made it up there. It would just go, like, straight into the pop bumper so you couldn't really do the skill shot. The game is not functional in that sense. And this is something that would have been easily testable from the factory. If they just tried it out, they would have known it's an issue. So the fix was that I had a collector help me out. He had to physically drill a new hole into the play field and move the metal rail guy, and that fixed it. So here's a case where you buy a new game and you're drilling a hole in the play field. Who doesn't want to do that, right? Nobody wants to do that. Nope. Nobody wants to do that. But that's the reality of buying a new box game. Does that problem bother you more than, like, the chipping and other things? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, if the game doesn't function correctly, yeah, that sucks. Especially if it's not something like, I've had every single game I bought new, even used, like, I've had problems with. Switches need to be adjusted, things come loose in shipping, you have to reconnect connectors, things like that. I remember, like, on Ghostbusters, I had to swap the plunger spring on it because the shot would rattle out and you wouldn't be able to get a full plunger on, stuff like that. So, I've had issues. If I can solve it myself, that's fine.
    117:05
    As a new pinball owner, like Game Time Television said, they bought a Metallica. The scoop didn't work out of the box. They thought by buying a new machine, you would avoid all of these issues. Correct. And I had that misconception too. Correct. Like, I want to buy a new game. I just want to play it. I don't want to have to maintain it. But after, you know, watching friends unbox new games and adjusting things out of the box, buying games myself, having to adjust things new out of the box.
    117:32
    Sorry, it's not the reality of pinball right yet. For the past 10 years, it's probably always been that way. I don't know if margins will ever be good enough for manufacturers to build games that, you know, it's not like, to get back to the car analogy, like, it's not a life or death situation in a pinball machine. If my car doesn't work right, I could die. If my pinball machine doesn't work right, I don't get to play my game for a while. So they're not going to build it to the same standards as a car, even though a car may cost the same amount. They're also not manufacturing as many, so they can't spread that cost out over. Well, look, I mean, if your new PlayStation you're buying doesn't work right, you're going to be pissed off, and you're not going to make these excuses. It's not a life or death thing. Exactly, but here's the thing. It's not a great analogy. If I have a PlayStation and I have a problem with it, I can either take it back to the store or Sony's going to swap it out for me. And that's really the biggest problem here is that they're either ignoring it or they're over time doing less. Like we talked about Ghostbusters. They were sending out populated play fields, swapping it out, fixing the problem. It took them a while to finally get there. But over time they wrote into their warranty that this is not an issue that is covered under your warranty or they're going to ignore it. So that's the biggest problem. There's very little that the end user can do to get these issues resolved versus if you buy something in a big box store where they can eat that cost of the PlayStation, no problem, and just give you a new one and then send it back to you. They'll deal with Sony and get you your replacement. It's no hassle to me. That's how it should be. And that's how, you know, going through a distributor, that's how it should be too. But it's just not for whatever reason. Well, you know, somebody asked in chat, is anything perfect out of the box? Yeah. I buy things all the time. There's packages that come from Amazon every day, and they work out of the box without an issue. It's very common. And the point, like with the PlayStation or these other items that are perfect out of the box, these are things that are easier to replace than pinball machines. I understand the issue with that. You would think that there's, like, more mistakes with things out of the box that they're easy to replace. You would think that with pinball machines there would be extra care because they're more difficult to remedy the solution for the consumer. But there seems to be less. Now, as a pinball buyer, I think the one thing that you learn quickly is that there's a lot of things that can go wrong with pinball. And I think we all have a certain tolerance for issues. And that's why that even after 10 years, this is – I'm just doing a video now. We've had our podcast now for four years. I could have done this four years ago and bitch thing and complained about it. But, again, the cracking is a thing that's not easy for the consumer to fix, not a switch to adjust, right? Like, I can tolerate certain things in a play field that need to – certain things in a game that might need to be tweaked or fixed. It sucks. I'm still not happy about it, but I can tolerate it a little bit. I guess it's just pinball. You shrug your shoulders. But it's the cracking. Anyways, moving on. So, yeah, Walking Dead Premium was a really annoying one. And then Deadpool, we were streaming, and the metal flap under the right ramp fell off. That's one of those annoying things that tweak that happened in the stream. So, again, it's frustrating and annoying and shouldn't happen, but it does. There's some strip-legged books, I believe. You've got the chip play field I discussed. Oh, the cabinet painted. So I was installing pin stadiums, and one of the things you do in the directions of pin stadiums, so the adhesive adheres to the cabinet as you take, like, this alcohol cloth and you wipe it down so that you get rid of dirt and stuff and it's clean. I've done that for games. Kevin, you've done that for games, no issue. Yep. On my Deadpool, when I got to the left one, when I got to the right side, I looked at that cloth, and there was this black all over. The black paint came off. So there was a section of that inside that cabinet that must have been damaged. That stern kind of carelessly painted over, but the paint was cheap or whatever, so I pulled the paint right off of it. So whatever. There's the evidence. There's the cloth. At that point, after the chipping, after the things falling off, I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me, man. It just adds up, right? It adds up after 10 years, and it adds up where you just feel defeated, and you're not excited about, I say you, I'm not excited about buying a pinball machine anymore because I'm like, what problems did I just bring on myself? What troubleshooting am I going to be doing? What forums do I have to run to to figure out how to fix this? Who can I get to help me? What conversations do I have to have, and how many emails a month do I have to go back with the manufacturer to get this fixed? It's just so much. Oh, and I forgot my speaker popping issue, which turned after about 10 emails, and me just kind of – I had to actually start yelling at them. I was being nice. They finally got back to me, and they replaced the speaker.
    122:11
    I don't know, man. It's just it becomes more – for me, it, like, takes the excitement and the thrill and the fun out of buying a new box pin mobile machine to the problems and the issues just start weighing me down. Just talking about it is draining. So to be fair, let's talk about the JGP games. I bought two of them. I've not had as significant issues. I had the pooling on Pirates, and I had the shipping start on the Scoop, which thankfully the Scoop can be covered with a cliffy protector, and that's not a worry anymore. And the pooling we caught early enough to put a washer on it, so I got lucky there.
    122:48
    Dialed in, I actually had an issue, and Jersey Jack was phenomenal at taking care of the issue. I'm not going to say what it is or go into that because my philosophy is that when I've been taken care of 100% and I'm happy with it, this doesn't need to be discussed. Why I talk more about this turn is because, especially with Deadpool, at that point in time, I realized that having a blank unpopulated play field does nothing for me. I asked for a populated one. I was like, look, dude, this is my sixth game I bought new, plus the 10 from the business. This is like, can you just give me a populated one? I'm worried about it. They wouldn't do it. So that pisses me off. They're like, we'll send you a play field. I was like, well, that's what you're going to give me, give me. but it's not what I'm asking for. So, yeah.
    123:36
    I don't know, man. Like I said, I'm not going to buy a new game until these problems are fixed, which I know they can be. Yep. So that's the end of my rant. Any last questions or anything that came up in chat? Yeah, I wonder what you think it'll take to get manufacturers to actually start solving this problem. Yeah, look, I actually have a thing that says solutions on my notes, so I probably should read. Okay, thank you. There you go. Not end a rant. So let's talk, what are the solutions? Well, companies, like I alluded to this earlier, companies need to start actually caring and realizing that they are losing buyers. Just go to that thread on Pinside, which I think I mentioned the name of it again. It's called Continued Playfield Issues with JGP and Stern. 6,000 posts, can't miss it. So you need to acknowledge that this is a problem and they are losing buyers. There's money that's happening to send out these replacement plate fields and aggravation that washers probably nine times out of ten would fix and prevent.
    124:40
    Consumers need to ask. Here's a good proactive thing you could do if you're in the market and you're going to buy a new pinball machine after hearing all this.
    124:47
    You're going to get a pinball machine through a distributor. Ask your distributor before you purchase what the remedy will be if you have these issues. Right? Understand as a consumer what's normal, what's considered normal wear and tear by the pinball manufacturer and what's not, and how that distributor is going to help you if there's an issue. Very good questions to ask. Sorry, Zach. This is probably frustrating to – I'm sure Timball distributors are frustrated by this. They can't like this. This is extra work for them. It's nonsense. They're advocates for the consumer. They don't like this either. Nobody can like this. I mean, Stern can't like this. JGP can't like this. So we all are in agreement that this issue sucks and we want it fixed, right? Like, we're all on the same side here.
    125:27
    Here's another good pro tip. But don't purchase the – I think you'll agree with this, Kevin. Don't purchase a new game when it immediately comes out. Give it a few months to see if there's any issues. Yeah. So beyond physical issues, why not wait for the code to get fleshed out a little bit more too? Get some time on the game. Enjoy it. Yeah. Don't be the early adopter. Don't be the beta testers for the – because they're building a brand-new product they've never built before. So you're going to run into issues along the way. This has happened for the entirety of manufacturing pinballs. Back in the 90s, they used to issue service updates for games when they would issue ball hang-ups or whatever. So you're building a machine that's intricate. Things are going to go wrong. They're going to make improvements along the way in theory, and then you're going to be that better off for it. Yeah, and obviously, look, it doesn't apply to collector editions. You're sort of buying it blind because there's limited editions and things like that. So, you know, you take your chances. Just realize that. But for the most part, you know, when the title comes out, it's usually manufactured up to two years at least. So you have time. And the follow-up to that is before you're ready to pull the trigger, go to also the pin side threads, look up this game, and see if there's any issues. See what problems people are having with the game. I should have did that with Deadpool. I didn't follow my own advice. I figured after a year that they would have resolved it. Stupid me. Okay, lesson learned. And know what you're getting yourself into with these games, right? I think there were issues when Jurassic Park from Stern first came out, and then they fixed the kind of pooling issues later on. So maybe the first few months, people who bought it, they got screwed over. But yours came out. When you got yours, Kev, it was like maybe a couple months into the production cycle, and yours has been okay. Yeah, because I got a premium, so they would have run the pros and the LEs. I think they fixed it for the LEs. The first run of pros that came out had the problem.
    127:23
    And then to their credit, they fixed it. And then by the time I got mine, it's been good. All right. And then last but not least, let these companies know. You know, if you're saying what I'm saying, and I'm doing this publicly now, so this is me doing this. If you're saying you're done buying new games until the issue is fixed, let Stern know. Let Jersey Jack know. You know, email them. Let them know that they lost a customer and this is a big deal to you. You know, going on the forum is great and all and bitching and complaining to other collectors and, you know, misery loves company. That's fine. I get solace in that. And, you know, I'm sure that some folks from these manufacturers see that, but there's nothing like getting an email from a number of consumers saying, listen, this is a big deal. I've, you know, purchased X amount of machines in the past or I'm a new customer, but I don't want to deal with this. What are you doing to solve the issue? Can you tell me I can buy this game and my play field is not going to chip and fall apart, right? That will have some impact. It has to have some impact because I don't think that there's – in their minds, as we talked about earlier, you get new customers every year. Things are good for pinball right now. Even though they're losing some customers, they're getting more. So they're clearly not addressing it, and this problem is continuing. But I guarantee if they fixed it and addressed it, they would make even more money. And we all want to see pinball thrive and survive and grow. We're all in this together. Hopefully this problem can get solved. There you go. Amen. All right. Let's bring it all home, Kevin. All right. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Brody Even Talk Pinball.
    128:54
    If you want to, you can follow us on social media. All at the bottom of the link screen there, but we're at buffalopinball.com. We're at buffalopinball on all the things like Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. YouTube, you can go check out our reveal stream of Guns N' Roses and the unboxing that we talked about earlier. been doing some live streams over there too I streamed Guns N' Roses over there because of music copyright issues which can be basically we would have been fine doing the live stream there but the video on demand would be muted so we wanted to avoid that for the reveal stream so I've been streaming it on Twitch ever since you can join our Facebook group and we're also on Discord or discord.gg slash buffalo pinball. You can email us if you want to tell Nick Lane all the things he asked you to tell him about. You can send that to talkpinball at gmail.com. If you want him to acknowledge that you're proud of him, he'll do that there.
    129:57
    You can support the channel by subscribing to us on Twitch. And if you have Amazon Prime, you can do that at no extra cost using your Twitch Prime. That's a free addition that comes with your Twitch Prime account. or you can send some cash money via PayPal at buffalopinball at gmail.com. And if you want to support us, go on your favorite podcast platform and drop a review, leave a comment on YouTube. You can go on Twip and review us there. All sorts of ways you can support what we do, and we appreciate all of it.
    130:35
    So, Nick, what's going to be the next thing you stream? you know what Martha streamed Sopranos last week I don't ever play Sopranos because I'm over that game but I think I'll stream it because the camera equipment is there I think I'll stream it on next week you're going to have Nick Lane swearing and the machines swearing all at the same time I feel like I don't have to swear when I play that game because it does it for me you just rip the spinner and it does it all alright guys until next time thanks we'll see ya
    131:07
    Thank you.