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Episode 408: Matt Vince and London Pinball

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·22m 34s·analyzed·Oct 15, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Jeff Teolis interviews London Pinball operator Matt Vince on UK competitive scene growth and European pricing challenges.

Summary

Jeff Teolis interviews Matt Vince, operator of London Pinball and UK Open organizer, at the 2024 UK Open in Croydon. They discuss the growth of competitive pinball in the UK, the role of pinball clubs in developing the scene, the challenges of high game pricing in Europe due to exclusive distributorship models, and London Pinball's business services including machine rental, sales, repair, and corporate event hosting.

Key Claims

  • In 2016, there was only one pinball machine visible on Pinball Map in London (an AC/DC Pro at Big Reds); the UK scene has grown significantly since then

    high confidence · Jeff describing his first visit to London in 2016 versus current state

  • UK pinball leagues were run almost exclusively out of people's homes until 4-5 years ago, before pinball clubs opened around the country

    high confidence · Matt Vince directly stating the shift from home-based leagues to club-based infrastructure

  • The UK has a single dominant pinball distributor, creating an archaic multi-tier pricing system that makes new games expensive for end consumers

    high confidence · Jeff and Matt discussing distribution bottlenecks; Matt confirms multiple resellers must buy through one distributor

  • Players can sometimes purchase games from the United States and import them with European boards at comparable or lower total cost than buying locally

    high confidence · Jeff noting he knows of people flying games from the States and adding European boards, still cheaper after shipping

  • Matt Vince was a service technician for 18 years before transitioning to pinball business operations

    high confidence · Matt directly stating his professional background in service and repair

  • Operators in the UK typically charge £1 per game maximum; charging more than that price point is difficult

    high confidence · Matt discussing ROI challenges for location operators with new expensive games

  • Lucy Vince (Matt's oldest daughter) has won money in ladies' pinball competitions and regularly reaches finals in junior divisions

    high confidence · Matt describing his daughter's competitive pinball achievements

  • Matt Vince started the first pinball league at his house in 2011 partly as an excuse to buy new games to learn strategies on titles he struggled with in competition

    high confidence · Matt explaining the origin of his league and his strategic approach to game learning

Notable Quotes

  • “In fact, you know, the players, they come and go and they, you know, when the tournament starts they're pumping they're dumping they're putting in their entries but that's not when it starts for you heck no you gotta get games ready you gotta haul these games you gotta fold them up you gotta go on trucks back and forth and back and forth to get them here i saw you do it and a lot of sweat and a lot of pride to bring this big event together”

    Jeff Teolis @ ~0:02:00 — Highlights the behind-the-scenes organizational labor required to run major tournaments, establishing Matt as the unsung infrastructure worker

  • “There's more people taking a slicer out of the pie over here. And the end user, the person trying to buy a game, is the one who winds up paying for it.”

    Matt Vince @ ~0:26:00 — Direct acknowledgment of the multi-tier distributor problem limiting market accessibility in the UK

  • “At the moment, you need deep pockets to be able to buy a lot of the new games. As I say, I would like to cite more of the newer games. I have quite a few. I have plenty of new modern Stearns. But generally, it's difficult to buy a new inbox because the return on investment with the price of the game is so hard because it's very difficult to charge more than a pound a game.”

    Matt Vince @ ~0:28:00 — Describes the catch-22 for location operators in UK: high game costs + price ceiling for play = poor ROI

  • “The very first one I started back in 2011. We was running it out of our house. And one of the reasons it worked was I would use the excuse that, oh, we've got another league we need to change a game up. But really, it was just for me to learn games I didn't know or always did bad at in competitions.”

    Matt Vince @ ~0:31:00 — Reveals a competitive strategy: using league hosting as cover for practicing weak games to eliminate tournament vulnerabilities

  • “I don't remember ever meeting somebody that just hates pinball, didn't have fun playing. And I just want to share that with more and more people.”

    Matt Vince @ ~0:45:00 — Philosophy statement about universal appeal of pinball as motivation for business and community engagement

  • “I'm a very approachable guy. You know, I'm always happy to help. So even if someone just wants to ring up and ask an opinion or, you know, is this too much money or what should I look for? I'm always there to help out. It's what I do.”

Entities

Matt VincepersonJeff TeolispersonLondon PinballcompanyUK OpeneventPinball RepublicorganizationLucy VincepersonDaniel VincepersonKatie VincepersonSarah Vince

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Exclusive distributor model in UK creates multi-tier pricing that makes new pinball machines unaffordable for location operators and home collectors; ROI impossible with £1/play ceiling

    high · Jeff and Matt discussing single dominant distributor; Matt stating deep pockets required; difficulty charging more than £1/play due to market resistance

  • ?

    community_signal: London Pinball expanding beyond machine rental/sales into corporate events, film production support, and MCM Comic Con participation to grow awareness and normalize pinball in mainstream culture

    high · Matt describing corporate events, filming shoots, Pinewood Studios work, and planned MCM Comic Con presence

  • ?

    community_signal: UK pinball infrastructure increasingly professionalized with dedicated repair/restoration specialists (Mark Squires, James at Majestic, Matt Vince as ex-service technician) supporting operator network

    medium · Discussion of TV repair experts, Majestic Pinball repair services, Matt's 18-year service technician background supporting EM restoration

  • ?

    competitive_signal: UK tournament scene differs from North America in WPPR point scale (lower 'whopper points') but growing player base and international travel creating integrated European competitive circuit

    medium · Jeff and Matt discussing differences in point scales; emphasis on European travel ease and cross-border player meetings

  • $

    market_signal: Cross-border grey market imports from North America cheaper than official UK channels; players and operators circumvent distributor monopoly through international shipping and board swaps

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.068

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teels you can find everything on pinballprofile.com you can email pinballprofile at gmail.com we're on facebook we have an instagram and x account at pinball profile and if you'd like to show your support on patreon that would be wonderful. It's patreon.com slash pinball profile. Don't worry, the show will always be free, but it helps keep it going. And I'd like to thank the great supporters that keep this going, like Lua W., Nick N., Cliff A., Jake C., Sean I., and others. So I'm here in south of London, in Croydon, for the UK Open, a great event. In fact, always on the calendar every September for me. I would not miss this. I would highly recommend it if you have a chance to go to this. If you're in Europe or even if you come across the pond like myself and other North Americans do. Again, great job by Neil McRae and the wonderful people of the Pinball Republic. And one of those people is Matt Vince, who also runs London Pinball. And this guy is a big part of the UK Open. Hey, Matt, how are you? I'm good, Jeff. Thank you. I want to talk to you because I saw you at work big time. In fact, you know, the players, they come and go and they, you know, when the tournament starts they're pumping they're dumping they're putting in their entries but that's not when it starts for you heck no you gotta get games ready you gotta haul these games you gotta fold them up you gotta go on trucks back and forth and back and forth to get them here i saw you do it and a lot of sweat and a lot of pride to bring this big event together yes uh i've been a competitor for a long time and uh every now and then it's nice to put in the work to make sure some other people can enjoy an event although i do try and play as well but and you're a good player too in fact uh country director here uh that you've been doing for about a year now that's right yeah and you've been playing since you said 2009 i think when you were playing yeah the first competition i went in was just uh i didn't realize there were pinball competitions there was a local one went to a league and uh from then on got the bug went into europe to play events and uh yeah been playing divisions the scene has changed a lot i know it's always been big and you've been you know the netherlands and other places too a few epcs are very popular here but right here in the united kingdom i'm telling you when i first got into pinball and really got the bug i was here in 2016 and i looked on pinball map and i saw one pinball machine i was at kensington if i recall and it was at a place called Big Reds, and it was an ACDC Pro, and I already had one at home, so I wasn't going to go to this event. That has also changed a lot in the last almost eight, nine years. It has. There's a lot more machines out on site. I suspect there was more than just the one. There were two. I don't think people used pinball maps. That's also part of the problem. We had our own map.

Matt Vince @ ~0:42:00 — Marketing pitch for London Pinball's advisory/consulting service beyond just sales and rental

person
Neil McRaeperson
Highway Pinballcompany
Yen Ongperson
Carlos Lazerlosperson
Mark Squiresperson
James Majesticperson
Dave Sandersperson
The Pullensperson
Jason Sudeikisperson
Funhouse 2.0game
Pinwood Studioscompany

high · Jeff noting he knows people flying games from States and buying European boards, still cheaper after shipping costs

  • $

    market_signal: UK pinball competitive scene has grown significantly since 2016 with expansion from single machine visibility to multiple clubs and regular league competitions across the country

    high · Jeff's observation of one machine on Pinball Map in 2016 vs. current club-based league infrastructure; Matt confirming shift from home-based leagues 4-5 years ago to current plethora of competitions

  • ?

    community_signal: Matt Vince uses competitive league organization as strategic cover for personal game learning, turning league hosting into a machine rotation/practice tool to eliminate tournament vulnerabilities

    high · Matt's explicit statement: 'I would use the excuse that, oh, we've got another league we need to change a game up. But really, it was just for me to learn games I didn't know'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Highway Pinball's Full Throttle and Alien machines mixed reception in UK location market; Full Throttle more reliable, Alien problematic; Stern remains dominant choice for location operators seeking stability

    medium · Matt noting Full Throttle was reliable with minor mode-balance scoring issue; Alien described as nightmare; preference for Stern reliability for locations

    • 3:09
    But, yes, it's certainly been a rise in popularity. And I think there's more clubs now in the UK. as you know, from Pimble Republic, something I'm passionate about. And that's brought new players. I mean, one of the guys playing in the quarterfinals right now is a new player relatively, Yen, Yen Ong, a very good player. Great player. And his family likes it too. That's right. And his first entry into Pimble was through the club and hiring games from us. So I'm kind of, he's like a prodigal son, although he's the same age as me. No, it's nice to see, and you've got certainly a lot of people here in the U.K. that have excelled. The Pullens come to mind. Even Neil can flip once in a while, and he'll put up a good card. Yourself, you made the U.K. Open finals. But, yeah, it's a different scene here, and the club is a big part of it. I would imagine without the clubs, it would be hard to have leagues and comps, and it's not easy to just rent the Hilton and have these big U.K. Opens. It's a big venture, so those clubs are essential. That's right. I mean, up until, say, four or five years ago, leagues were run out of people's homes almost exclusively, and we had the one big show a year, which was the UK Pinball Party, now known as Pinfest.
    4:26
    But with the advent of the clubs, not just our own, but others that have opened around the country, there's now a plethora of competitions, which is bringing new players into the hobby and just expanding things greatly. We don't get the huge whopper points that perhaps you do at some of the American tournaments, but it's growing, and it's nice to see the enthusiasms there, certainly through the club we have with a great community of people. And that's probably one of the things I'm most proud of, is the group of people we've brought around ourselves that come together to make things happen. Well, I know I remember when I first got into competitive pinball. Again, knowing it was a competition, but it was more of a social aspect. It was a league. Didn't really know much about these magical pinball points, the Whopper points, and it didn't matter. Was I having fun? And that's probably what it was for you too. And then you find out, okay, maybe you do well, and you're like, what, I'm ranked now? And then you look at the website, and you're like, holy cow. And then the addiction grows a little bit. But it's not about the points, is it? It is about fun, and different formats certainly provide that. That's right. um what what happened was the first time we went to a european event i said to my wife said Sarah do you fancy going to Milan for a weekend And she couldn be happier She was shocked that I offered And my friend Justin did the same with his partner. Little did they know that when we got to Milan, oh, by the way, there's this pinball competition that we're going to go and play. We spent a whole day out of the two days playing in a pinball competition, but it was great fun. It was the first time I met Daniele. He'd just won his first world championship. First of many. Yes, that's right and it was just such a nice atmosphere we had a great time even as foreigners we were well received and looked after and that was the beginning of lots of trips out into Europe to play in competitions Sarah didn't come for too much longer because she got pregnant but yeah, they were great times and in many ways that was the inspiration for the club visiting Switzerland and going to the Hurricane Club and some of the other venues around Europe they kind of inspired me to look for a venue. And I looked for many years, but the price of property here in London is so expensive that I'd actually given up. I sold a load of older classic games because I just didn't think we'd ever find somewhere. And then one day a venue fell into my lap, which was when the club first got started. Great location right now. If you're at the East Croydon train station, it's a walk from there. I did the walk. It's a piece of cake. And lots of machines there. I'm sure you're going to have some big competitions. In fact, I think there's one next week. There is, yes. We have at least one a month. We have to, to be able to pay the rent, to be perfectly honest. Makes sense. Now that we've moved, because we're in a shopping centre location now, whereas before we were in an industrial unit tucked away. But now we have good visibility, a nice space. But, yeah, we have to run plenty of events to keep paying the rent. See, it's interesting. You talk about earlier, you said, you know, we might not have the whoppers that you have in North America and stuff. But one thing that's great about Europe, and I see it every time I come here, is that you see people from all different countries. It is easier to travel within Europe than maybe, in some cases, across North America. It's certainly west coast to east coast, north to south, all those kind of things, too. A lot of travel, a lot of hours, too. The train system is wonderful here. The prices are, I think, reasonable here in Europe. And again, that's one thing I really love. And you mentioned the Milan example, but that's one of the things I think made me like pinball even more. The games were always fun, but then you get the people. Now you get the travel. It's all-encompassing. That's right. One of the joys is, for example, this weekend at the UK Open, we've got players from all over Europe, people that I haven't seen for a couple of years because my children are older now, so I don't get to go abroad so much. And it's nice to see old friends, you know. So you do, you end up with an extended community of friends dotted around everywhere. That's it's really nice. It really is one of the special things about the hobby. Well, you mentioned Sarah and I know you know this, but Sarah is kind of my fixer. When I come over to the UK, she sets me up. And before your mind goes to the gutter, I get a nice email right before I come. Would you like a case of Diet Pepsi? Yes, I would. God bless Sarah. She's a good girl. There's a reason I married her. You've got a great family, too, and they're all into pinball, which kind of makes it fun, too. You know, you don't feel as guilty if you're the only one going off playing pinball when they're all into it. And doing quite well makes it a lot easier. Yeah, Lucy, my oldest daughter, she's already won money in ladies' competitions before, and she's usually in the finals for the juniors. My youngest, Daniel, who's nine, he's really starting to get it, you know, catching the ball and playing properly. and he's very keen. So he's the one that's asking me what games are we going to keep at home or has that got to go out on site? Can't we keep it here so I can learn it? It's nice, yeah. What games do your kids like the most?
    9:35
    Depends which child you ask. Lucy has Centaur in her bedroom. She likes Medieval Madness a lot. Daniel, we play Paragon regularly at home and he also likes The Mandalorian. Katie just loves Roadshow. She just loves those. She loves Roadshow. Yeah, she loves the big heads on there. The tournament's over, so I can say this, but one of the passwords that we used was basically something that said, Roadshow sucks. Don't let your kid know that. No, do you know, I used to... I think Kirk set it up. I used to always find that Roadshow was a killer for me in competition, so I bought one just to be able to find a strategy and find a way to play it. Brilliant idea. Yeah. That was how the league actually started. The very first one I started back in 2011.
    10:27
    We was running it out of our house. And one of the reasons it worked was I would use the excuse that, oh, we've got another league we need to change a game up. But really, it was just for me to learn games I didn't know or always did bad at in competitions. That is a great strategy. It's been said once or twice on Pinball Profile. I first got the idea from Carlos Lazerlos, who told me, you know, I said, oh, you know, there's some games you see in competition like i don't want to play that and he told me those are the first ones he goes to practice or if it's a herb style format where you get to play it more than once get used to it get familiar you might have to play it in the playoffs it is a good way to tackle your fears and you wind up maybe you start liking the game maybe you appreciate it more and now you don have that worrisome feeling once you have to play it no that right i exactly the same At the moment I would say for myself now it mostly the newer games because I don necessarily always buy new in I like to but they very expensive over here Well, that is something I've noticed, and you're not the first to say it. I've heard it from many people here in the UK. It is really expensive to buy games here, and I don't know if I'm saying anything out of school here, but there's kind of one distributor, if I believe, and there are other people that sell machines, but they have to buy through a distributor. I find that very difficult, and no wonder things are expensive, because you've got a few pockets to be paid. That's right. There's more people taking a slicer out of the pie over here. And the end user, the person trying to buy a game, is the one who winds up paying for it. That's right, which is why probably the sales aren't as good as they could be.
    12:03
    Or you buy from another country. Well, technically not supposed to. Who does that? No one does that. But I'm certain that I know that some games come in from Europe because it's actually cheaper to do so in a lot of cases. I mean, I know people that have flown games from the States to over here and then bought a European or UK board. And it's still, after shipping, being comparable price or less. With the number of distributors that are popping up all over, certainly North America, I'm surprised that that, I'm going to say maybe archaic system is still in place. and hopefully things change for you, the players of the UK that want to get your machines at probably a more decent price. So we'll see. I think it would help. I certainly think it would help get more games out there. At the moment, you need deep pockets to be able to buy a lot of the new games. As I say, I would like to cite more of the newer games. I have quite a few. I have plenty of new modern Stearns. But generally, it's difficult to buy a new inbox because the return on investment with the price of the game is so hard because it's very difficult to charge more than a pound a game. That's kind of it. Once you go above a pound a game, it's difficult to get people to pay it. Yeah, it's different prices in different areas. I know Australia is probably two Australian dollars a game too, which is kind of on par to a pound a game. But also you have to pay the freight, so the expenses of just getting the games over from North America, That's going to be a factor. They're not cheap regardless.
    13:36
    But there are other companies, and there's some right here in Europe. There are. I have, I mean, when Highway Pinball first started, I was the first, I believe the first to put a full throttle on the site. And I also did the same with Alien.
    13:50
    Full throttle actually, for all the talk, the one that I had was pretty reliable. I loved that game. Other than the issue with the scoring between the modes, you get into a mode and it wasn't worth playing. I'm talking about the way it's shot. Holy cow, was it fun. Yeah, Dave did a great design. Sanders? Dave Sanders did a really good design on that game. Alien was a nightmare. The original Highway. The original one, okay. The original Highway. They've done a good job now. Yeah, so I believe. But as someone who's putting games on the site, it's very difficult for me to get away from Sterns. They're just so reliable. I've got to tell you, I enjoyed playing Queen Pinball. I have yet to play ABBA. I'm looking forward to that. But again, we're seeing some good things. They had Funhouse 2.0 here, the 30 game. So that was good. Yeah, we played that at the club in the league actually last week before the Open. Kind of give it a road test, make sure it'll make it through.
    14:46
    And it's very cool. Yeah, it looks beautiful as well. It plays very nice. It's a bit quick, but it's brand new out of the box. But yeah, it's good. As I say, the big issue is who's going to be the guinea pig? Who's going to put it out on site and take that chance? That's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, Matt, because you are in charge of London Pinball, your fine company where you buy games, you sell games, you have games for higher rent, all those kind of things. There's lots of factors, too. I would imagine things like parties and weddings and, you know, at Christmas time, there are lots of opportunities. Again, if you don't want to make the big plunge into buying a new game, you've got a great company in London Pinball that can help. Yes, that's right. We do a lot of corporate events and personal private hires for parties or sometimes just long-term hire.
    15:39
    We offer that service to people and whether that's newer games or even old classics, we have pricing that adjusts. I saw that a lot during the pandemic where people were renting games, people looking to have something at home. And even though the pandemic's over, it's still nice to have, you know, oh, geez, do I really want to spend thousands of dollars on a new game, or why don't I just have a taste? Or maybe for a few hundred pounds or a hundred dollars or whatever the case may be, you get this game for a month or two and you check it out and maybe you fall in love with it. I think that's a great, it's a good way to rotate without having to buy the whole thing. That's right. And we also get quite a lot, because we have a lot of modern sterns. So if someone wants a Stranger Things or Star Wars, but they're not sure whether they want to take the plunge and spend all that money, they can rent it from us, seeing whether they really like the game after more than a week and then go and buy one if they really want it or buy the one from us. I tried to go the last time I was here, didn't this time? Pinewood Studios, which is outstanding. And I know the reason I bring that up is because you see a lot of pinball machines in television and movies and stuff, and London Pinball would provide for things like that as well too. Yes, we've done filming. We done various corporate events filming shoots we going to be at the MCM Comic Con at the Excel Centre in London at the end of next month So hopefully promote the club as well as our company and just get pinball out in front of the masses. Let's do a plug. Where can people find you at London Pinball?
    17:07
    Londonpinball.co.uk is our website. We have loads of manuals and parts and various other bits and pieces on there. Also on Facebook, Instagram, London Pinball. My daughter Lucy, she does all of our media. social media stuff so she's always putting up posts uh whether it be just what we're up to there'll be plenty from this weekend at the uk open and uh yeah because we don't do pocket money in our family it's only wages so she didn't she didn't fancy getting dirty with us with the tools so speaking dirty again i talked about you hauling the games here and i know tournament's almost over right now so you know everyone will be kind of piling out of here not you you'll be making back fourth trips to the club with all the games and and i hopefully have a lot of people helping you i'm i'm raising my hand i'll be there for you as well but another way of getting dirty is fixing games too and uh it was always kind of a fear of buying game what happens if it goes wrong well that is a skill that not a lot of people have they might be able to tinker a little bit here and there but uh finding a good repair person is key to owning pinball machine london pinball has That's right. I mean, I was a service technician for 18 years. So I'm certainly well versed in repairing electromechanical equipment. And we do that as well for pinball machines for customers as well as doing restorations. So at the moment at home, I'm doing a creature in the back of the goon for a customer and a Captain Fantastic.
    18:36
    I like the EMs because they don't need expensive parts on the whole. They just need time and effort. And I really enjoy them. I love my EMs. And, you know, when you have an expert like yourself in that kind of field for the older games, it's quicker to diagnose. So you're not paying a lot of money in hours and trying to figure things out. So it's good. I would go to London Pinball to find out more if you have a repair need or you want to hire Matt or get a game. Whatever the case may be, there's lots of opportunities with London Pinball. Even if people just need help or advice. I'm a very approachable guy. You know, I'm always happy to help. So even if someone just wants to ring up and ask an opinion or, you know, is this too much money or what should I look for? I'm always there to help out. It's what I do.
    19:23
    Don't you get a good feeling when you see somebody finally jump in with both feet and they're getting their first pinball machine, whether it's new in box or whether it's a used one? You know it's going to grow, too. It's always nice to get more people into the hobby. I mean, one of the reasons I first put games in a bar was it wasn't really about making money at the time. It was about getting pinballs out there. because I just want to share the hobby, you know. I haven't yet, even with my family, some of my, certainly my in-laws, they thought Sarah was mad for letting me have loads of machines in the house, but then they'd come round at Christmas, and they all loved them. You know, I defy anybody to play a game of pinball, whether it, you might not like the newer fast games, like if you're a nan or an older person, but then they see one of the old games that they remember from their youth, and that nostalgia comes back to them. So I don't remember ever meeting somebody that just hates pinball, didn't have fun playing. And I just want to share that with more and more people. Didn't you love when you saw Ted Lasso and Jason Sudeikis put Wizard of Oz in the bar there and had a few games on it? It was always kind of in the forefront of a few episodes. I thought that was great. That opened up a lot of eyes. I was pleased to see it. I was only disappointed we didn't get to supply the machine. But no, it's nice because I believe he pushed for that as well. didn't he? Oh I'm sure he did He's a big fan Major pinhead It's always nice to get as much exposure as we can I've done a few bits on telly before mostly as an expert consultant for a repair show which my good friend Mark Squires he does he's on the Restorers which is a TV series we have over here and along with people like James at Majestic Pimble who also helps fix the games at the club and here at the Open we've got some real good guys that have got great knowledge in the community. The scene is growing, whether it's the UK Open, whether it's the Pinball Republic Club or London Pinball and the service that you do, Matt. Thanks very much and I wish you the best of luck. Thank you very much. Hope you've enjoyed your time here in England. Always do and I'll see you again next year for sure. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. Great Facebook group as well. We're on Twitter and X and Instagram at pinballprofile. You can email pinballprofile at gmail.com. If you'd like to show your support on Patreon, don't worry, the show will always be free, but it helps keep the show going, and I can't thank the supporters enough. GME Law, David M., Jerry S., Colin M., Tony V., Stefan R., and others, thank you, thank you, thank you. Here at the UK Open with Matt Vince of London Pinball, I'm Jeff Teolas.
    22:10
    Candy in my heels Go dance, go dance my blues away Yeah Woo Yeah, no You're nothing to me This movie against my will Got so much candy Candy in my heels Go dance, go dance...