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Mel Kirk talks Zen and Goings On with AtGames

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·20m 18s·analyzed·Nov 4, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Zen/AtGames latency fixed; 52 tables planned for 2025 with day-and-date FX releases.

Summary

Mel Kirk from Zen Studios discusses the AtGames cabinet partnership, detailing how latency issues were resolved through a complete codebase rebuild and explaining ongoing cabinet distribution plans. The conversation covers 2025 release roadmap (52 tables planned, targeting day-and-date releases with Pinball FX), surround sound implementation, pricing strategy, and expansion into retail locations. Mel emphasizes the cabinet's appeal to families and casual players while acknowledging manufacturing and licensing challenges.

Key Claims

  • 18-month effort to solve latency issues through complete Linux-based codebase rebuild, achieving sub-60ms latency

    high confidence · Mel Kirk directly stated this as an accomplished technical achievement with celebrations upon test verification

  • Five cabinet skins currently released: Jurassic, Star Trek, Attack from Mars, Peanuts, Addams Family

    high confidence · Mel Kirk enumerated the releases during conversation with Chris Frebus

  • Original target was 15 cabinet designs; still targeting 15 but timeline has extended due to manufacturing challenges

    high confidence · Mel Kirk confirmed ongoing 15-unit target despite delays, attributing delays to global supply chain issues

  • 52 pinball tables planned for release in 2025, with June launch target for day-and-date Pinball FX/AtGames parity

    high confidence · Chris Frebus cited PK's announcement of 52 tables; Mel confirmed June day-and-date launch target

  • AtGames cabinets will be placed in physical retail locations (Mel hinted Costco-like venues without naming)

    medium confidence · Mel stated 'You will see these machines in retailers' and referenced Stern's Jurassic Park in Costco as precedent, but declined to name specific retailers

  • Surround sound kit is exclusive to AtGames builds and not available for OTG (Steam/PC) versions

    high confidence · Mel directly confirmed surround sound is 'an exclusive feature' and 'special builds for AtGames'

  • Cabinet table angle is optimized specifically for AtGames hardware format and differs from standard Pinball FX cabinet mode

    medium confidence · Mel acknowledged a design decision was made but admitted uncertainty about specifics, deferring to team decisions

Notable Quotes

  • “We completely rebuilt the code base. Oh, geez. Wow. We went all the way back to zero, and everything is Linux-based now.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~07:30 — Key technical detail explaining the scope of latency fix; represents monumental software engineering effort

  • “We were literally celebrating when we got the test back and the latency was what it was and below 60 milliseconds.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~08:15 — Confirms latency resolution target achieved; emotional weight of solving 18-month problem

  • “I think pinball should be about [families enjoying it]. And all the pieces, all the hardware is now in sync with the software, and we've gotten a lot of the issues behind us.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~13:30 — Frames AtGames cabinet as family-focused product post-latency resolution

  • “You'll see these machines in retailers. I'm not going to say which one specifically, but I think people will walk up to this.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~17:15 — Hints at retail expansion strategy without explicit confirmation of locations

  • “From the time I flick the switch to the time I'm playing, it's one minute. And then even table to table it's only maybe like a 15-second load screen.”

    Chris Frebus @ ~18:00 — User perspective on cabinet usability and load times as family-friendly feature

  • “Hopefully that will happen in 2025. I think that we have a release coming in June, and I think that's the target to launch day-and-date.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~11:45 — Confirms June 2025 target for simultaneous Pinball FX and AtGames table releases

  • “I think there's a lot that we can do with that content. We can provide them more value with every table... e-sports level activity where it's money on the line.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~15:30 — Hints at future monetization and competitive tournament infrastructure for cabinet owners

  • “Five bucks a table has been great. It doesn't feel like it's not as painful when you're dropping in those little doses.”

Entities

Mel KirkpersonChris FrebuspersonJaredpersonPKpersonZen StudioscompanyAtGamescompanyBlockade Pinball PodcastorganizationAtGames Legends 4K CabinetproductPinball FXproductJurassic Park (AtGames skin)product

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Manufacturing constraints preventing achievement of original 15-cabinet design target; supply chain delays attributable to global shortages rather than partner disengagement

    high · Mel: 'Significant number of challenges in manufacturing landscape... might not get to 15 different designs in time we want... here's five, still fantastic'

  • ?

    business_signal: AtGames expanding manufacturing/assembly operations within US (LA port distribution center, Georgia distribution hub) despite global supply chain constraints

    medium · Mel: 'Shipped into port of LA... distribution center somewhere in Georgia... Savannah, Georgia... some assembly might be done here'

  • ?

    community_signal: AtGames planned expansion of Flipper Friends tournaments and potential e-sports revenue model with money prizes for cabinet owners

    medium · Mel: 'Flipper Friends tournaments... larger scale events... e-sports level activity where it's money on the line'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: AtGames cabinet engineered with family/casual player accessibility as primary design goal; load times optimized (1 minute startup, 15-second table transitions)

    high · Chris: 'From the time I flick the switch... it's one minute... three-year-old boy... addicted to pinball'

  • $

    market_signal: AtGames pursuing retail expansion into major consumer outlets (hinted at Costco-like locations) to increase cabinet visibility and accessibility

    medium · Mel: 'You will see these machines in retailers... people will walk up to this... I think our price point is really attractive'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.061

0:00
blockade pinball podcast um so yeah this is our annual talk about uh all things zen where we've uh been this past year where we're going for uh down the line in the future uh but definitely the thing that's been most prominent on my mind, it's been that AtGames cabinet, because Mel, I'm not kidding you, it's the only way I want to play pinball anymore.
0:39
Playing on a dedicated cabinet is so amazing. It's like, I know that you've seen that I had that Pinsim cabinet before, and I had a monitor that was vertical, and that was one way of playing, but now with a physical machine that you can nudge around and bash around on, That's amazing. That's definitely where it's at for me. Yeah, that's good to hear because a lot of work has gone into that and it's taken several generations and a lot of trial and error over the years. I think we've talked about the potential of cabinets and I think that we're finally just now getting to the point where the vision is being realized. Yeah.
1:18
And it seems like, speaking with your partnership with AtGames in particular, it's really been gaining momentum in terms of how often you've had releases coming. Obviously, you have, what, I think four skins out now for the machines.
1:36
Yeah, I'd have to count them. I mean, I know Jurassic is the last one that we announced, and we've got Star Trek, Attack from Mars, Peanuts, and... Oh, and Atoms, so that's five. And Atoms Family, five. Yeah. And that was of the, I know way back when, I think we'd said, what, 15 was the target? Are we still looking at 15 down the line, or has that plan changed a little bit? Yeah, I think we are. There's been a significant number of challenges in the manufacturing landscape. And PK over at AtGames, I think, has got to be one of the best in the world at managing this stuff because he's done it for so long. And even when he's talking to me about the challenges they're facing, it is a real tricky situation. both just with pieces of things available and materials and then shipping costs and all this stuff. So we got out of the gate really good, and I think that it was really well-timed. If we had waited for later, it might not have gone so smoothly, but we still have a plan to get all those machines out. It's just going to take a little while longer, but I'm looking at what we've done in this short amount of time.

Chris Frebus @ ~20:45 — Positive reinforcement of AtGames pricing strategy from enthusiast perspective

Star Trek (AtGames skin)
product
Attack from Mars (AtGames skin)product
Peanuts (AtGames skin)product
Addams Family (AtGames skin)product
Knight Rider (Zen table)product
Battlestar (Zen table)product
Arcade1Upcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Flipper Friends tournamentsproduct
  • $

    market_signal: Zen/AtGames maintaining aggressive $5-per-table pricing strategy to reduce perception of cost barrier for casual/family players

    high · Chris: 'Five bucks a table has been great... one less Starbucks a week' vs. Mel acknowledging new player FOMO: 'holy crap, I can spend so much'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Surround sound kit exclusive to AtGames hardware builds; not available for Steam/OTG versions, representing exclusive feature differentiation

    high · Mel: 'All these builds on AtGames are all extra work... It's a special build for AtGames... OTG versions don't support surround sound kit'

  • ?

    product_strategy: 52 pinball tables planned for 2025 AtGames/Pinball FX release; June launch target for day-and-date parity between platforms

    high · Mel: 'I think that we have a release coming in June, and I think that's the target to launch day-and-date'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Complete Linux-based codebase rebuild for AtGames platform, achieving sub-60ms latency after 18-month effort; represents major technical milestone

    high · Mel: 'We completely rebuilt the code base... everything is Linux-based now... 18 months... finally fixed'

    • 2:41
    Five, especially the licenses we have, I think it's pretty great. So, yes, there's definitely more coming. um obviously this past year a lot of the uh i mean basically since the release of adam's family there uh a lot of the focus had been on the latency issues um and that has since been uh shored up uh the games play phenomenal now they're really uh like it's really tight with the the flipper and the ball going that you feel definitely connected um can you dive into a little bit about what went into solving that latency problem? Because it seems like you guys were in discussions with all sorts of people to try and solve this issue.
    3:26
    Yeah, I mean, we completely rebuilt the code base. Oh, geez. Wow. We went all the way back to zero, and everything is Linux-based now. And yeah, it was pretty crazy. It was a monumental effort. This problem we worked on 18 months. I feel like my team was about ready to give up. We never give up on anything.
    3:51
    So we found a few things which led us to where we went. It was a very painstakingly slow process. I know everybody was super patient with us. But now that it's done and we now don't have to worry about it anymore, we were literally celebrating when we got the test back and the latency was what it was and below 60 MS. and everything, so it's finally fixed. But probably one of the biggest efforts to fix a problem that we've ever had to do, spend, resource-wise. Yeah, and I noticed that it wasn't just latency that got fixed.
    4:31
    There were some graphical enhancements that went in when this all came back out. Certain tables all of a sudden looked a little bit better. and then all the sound got balanced out so that it was all equal across and it seemed like the surround sound kit all of a sudden was really being utilized much more than it had been previously.
    4:54
    Yeah, I think all this takes time to come together. You know, we are software. AtGames is hardware Although I mean yeah they make their own tables too but to bring two kind of you know companies in and really have to like get down into the nitty to make everything uh phenomenal it takes time it's like you know year after year uh technologies get better yeah get a little cheaper you know that's just a normal progression uh so i think that we're in a place now where um yeah all the cool uh like the sf ssf kit i don't know if you played knight rider yet but But in my opinion, dude, that thing is banging with the SSF. No, honestly, Knight Rider and Battlestar are just putting it through a workout. It feels so good. And I was telling Jared this earlier, because I can play in OTG mode also. I have my computer hooked up to it. And while the lighting effects and the graphics are a little bit, well, I shouldn't say a little bit, a lot better with just playing it in Pinball FX or playing pinball M without that surround sound feel, it's not as immersive.
    6:06
    Just feeling the pop numbers going off, feeling the ball rolling around, everything, it just sinks you in, and you no longer are concerned about, oh, my gosh, there's a jaggy on that rail. It doesn't matter anymore. It's about where is that ball, and you can tell what's firing and where it is on the table. Yeah.
    6:23
    Yeah, I think the overall experience is really, really great. and what we hear from a lot of players, I mean, their whole family is enjoying it. We have a wide variety of content, so their kids can play. I have pictures. People send me their pictures, and it makes life great. You see someone's little daughter playing My Little Pony, and then the mom and dad. Recently, we got some of the M-rated stuff, and they're like, we're celebrating Halloween. It's cool. So that's what pinball should be about. And all the pieces, all the hardware is now in sync with the software and we've gotten a lot of the issues behind us. I think now what we need to do is make sure that people can experience the machine in like more locations to figure out if they want to get one. Yeah. And I think that we're going to, you know, from here, we should really start to scale up. Do you feel like there is a, I know that PK made an announcement, something to the effect that there's 52 tables coming in 2025. when I did a breakdown of the math of what that meant if I excluded all Star Wars and the Marvel tables there's exactly 53 tables that have not been ported over yet I don't know if those 53 are the ones coming over or anything like that but do you feel like there's a time where the tables are going to be day and date release on Pinball FX and then also at the games platform yeah hopefully that will happen in 2025 I think that we have a release coming in June, and I think that's the target to launch day in day. So when Zen announces a game, you'll see the AtGames logo on the logo garden. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, that's great.
    8:05
    Circling back to that SSF kit and just kind of some of the things I've noticed in general, bouncing back and forth between AtGames and playing OTG mode, cabinet mode of Pinball FX and Pinball M. first off, is there a point where those games can utilize the surround kit in AtGames' cabinet?
    8:31
    Or is that an exclusive thing to them? Oh, from the OTGIC? Yes. No, that's an exclusive feature. All these builds of the games on AtGames are all extra work, extra coding, engineering. It's a special build for AtGames. So the OTG versions don't support the SSF kit. Okay. The Steam versions, right? Yes, yes, Steam.
    8:56
    Similarly, I know that the table angle on cabinet mode in Pinball M and Pinball FX is kind of a slight angle, like the rails are going in a little bit towards the top as opposed to, and this would be both with previous mobile versions and then what's going on with ad games, where it is a straight, right down the pipe, overhead look.
    9:21
    Is that a choice specific to knowing that it's cabinet mode, even though you offer cabinet in Pinball FX, or is that something that maybe we'll see one day also pop into the games proper? All right, so you kind of stumped me here because I'm actually not aware of that. So that is the detail of a product.
    9:42
    I'm sure it's a design decision. And I leave those most for the most part now to, uh, to the team. So they're probably, it's probably specifically for the, the format that in which you're playing. Um, we, we probably find that to be best on the act games unit. Yeah. Yep. Um,
    10:01
    good question though. Last one last one that kind of goes along with this in terms of the difference between having cabinet mode just regular game and when you also bringing it over to a cabinet
    10:14
    And I know that we've touched on this in the past, but every time a new title comes out, I have to go on the back glass hunt and find my own image to import it into Pinball FX. and what's funny is that sometimes the images that then pop up on at games are completely different than what everybody else has been finding whether on the Zen site or whatever. Is there a licensing reason or something that prevents Zen from just making them readily available or even shipping with the game itself?
    10:50
    It's a funny question and it's something we've been talking about for years and years, right? I just don't think that we've seen the value in doing it, or maybe, or the request isn't big enough compared to the requests we have for everything else. So it's a lot of art assets and management, and then you do have to put all those through for licensure approval, and then they're always wondering, like, where's this going to go, and are we going to monetize it, and all these questions. And I think it just gets bogged down because it's just an add-on asset. We're not charging for it, but we can't really – we show them a back glass, and they kind of don't get it. But, I mean, I just don't think there's been a concerted effort to go get it done. So I'm making a bunch of excuses right now. So, no, I mean, like we should probably, at this point, now that we've solved all these other issues, we could probably figure this out. Okay.
    11:43
    Moving beyond that. So you were talking about how right now you're able to kind of focus more on, now that you've got the latency issues and all that, centering your focus once again, narrowing it down and being able to work on the content more with at games. I'm curious to know in general how are we feeling about like are we where is Zen where they want to be with those releases with 4K or are there even dreams and aspirations you guys are hoping to still pump through later down the line you mean with actual 4K just using the 4K cabinet I'm talking about the 4K the games 4K cabinet what we want to do with it I think there's so much potential here.
    12:37
    I don't want to get too far ahead of it because we do have plans for more live services and events and things that people can participate in and building that sense of community.
    12:49
    And I think that there's a lot that we can do. When a player has invested that much money, or I consider it like a family has invested that much money in this unit and it goes into their home, of course you want to give them a steady stream of content that they can have fun with but there's more that we can do with that content we can provide them more value with every table it's not just that they have to play it we have their leaderboards and now they're doing the flipper friends tournaments and things like that I think that you'll see those ideas like blossom into larger scale events you know and we can tie those in with our licensors we can celebrate other forms of what's going on in the fandom of those IPs perhaps I don't know Maybe there's e-sport level activity where it's money on the line. There's a lot of cool things that we could potentially do.
    13:37
    The potential for releasing these cabinets in the physical world, again, I know this has nothing to do with you guys. It would be entirely at games.
    13:49
    But I know that recently I saw Stern had their Jurassic Park Home Edition in Costco. and yeah, people were playing it. And I know the last Christmas, that's when I saw the arcade one-up Star Wars in Costco. I imagine that that's what you're talking about with getting these out there more is being able to maybe have these at physical locations.
    14:16
    Exactly. And that is definitely on our roadmap. You will see these machines. I think I can say it. I mean, I don't know. You'll see these machines in retailers.
    14:25
    I'm not going to say which one specifically, but I think people will walk up to this. They know, I mean, most people know what to do when they walk up to a pinball machine. That's the beauty of it. They just, they have to, they have to hear it and feel it and be like, Whoa, this thing is for real. This really feels good and it plays well. And look at all these games. I think our price point is really, really attractive. I think how the quality of the machine and it not breaking down is really, really great. And then when you turn it on, you connect it to wifi, all the things you get to do with it. So I think it's really, it's not a hard sell. people just need to be able to know it exists and get a feel for it. Honestly, that's my favorite part is that from the time I flick the switch to the time I'm playing, it's one minute.
    15:05
    And then even table to table it only maybe like a 15 second load screen It just boom you in it and you going I have a little my wife does daycare at the house and I have a one of them is three years old this boy and he's now addicted to pinball. He just wants to play the dinosaur tables. And so first he was playing Dino Dynasty, and then Jurassic Park came out, and he doesn't even touch Dino Dynasty anymore. It's the three Jurassic Park tables. so it's really kind of fun watching him and watching his pinball skills elevate it's kind of mind blowing just watching that happen in real time so yeah I definitely see where that potential is people getting their hands on them I also wanted to comment with those that block of tables that will be coming next year and I know that just this past month it seems like we've had a table release almost weekly and I do gotta say it felt like Rock Band as they were releasing new music tracks every week. If you're on top of it, you don't even notice the cost, because, and I definitely have to applaud you guys with your pricing, five bucks a table has been great. It doesn't feel like it is not as painful when you're dropping in those little doses as opposed to a much larger pack where all of a sudden it's like, oh, maybe I have to think about that.
    16:29
    It's one thing to think, oh, just one less Starbucks a week as opposed to, oh, I'm going to have to not go out to lunch for two days.
    16:38
    I think, because you've been there kind of since the beginning, I think a new user, and this is a problem that we have in pinball world in general, is a brand new player comes in and holy crap, I can spend so much, it's too much.
    16:53
    I do think the family or the player who's investing this much money, I think they're, yeah, they turn it on right now, there's a good amount of content, but at some point it's going to be like, well, this is a lot. Yeah, yeah.
    17:07
    That's okay. People like the choice. People like the variety. I do think the pricing is good, though. I agree with you. Yeah, no, it definitely seems fair. I think that was my biggest concern was what was going to be the difference in price between if you bought it on Steam and if you bought it on this cabinet.
    17:25
    And then just like I said, that surround sound kit, A, it's an essential thing to buy. Folks, if you haven't bought one of these machines yet, get the Surround Count kit. It's the deal. It's what makes all the difference in the world.
    17:40
    And it's, like I said, I almost, I shouldn't say I almost, I definitely prefer playing these versions over going OTG and bringing in those because it's just instantaneous and that feel is what makes it just hands down. So, no, I definitely got to say, Mel, that great job on making this happen.
    18:07
    Have you noticed, and I don't know, again, if this is anything that you want to talk about, just the distribution. I know that when you were with, partnered with 1UP, that there was a distribution issue. And obviously, that was during the COVID era. So, massive amounts of problems going on there. distribution of this. Obviously, like you said, there's been some manufacturing differences, but I believe that they're doing things in America now. Is that what my understanding is correct? Some assembly might be done here. I mean, everything is shipped into the port of LA. We have a distribution center somewhere in Georgia. I believe it's Savannah, Georgia. But I think that the factors With at games are Different than what happened with arcade One up I think I think arcade One up lost interest in the category for Whatever reason and at games We're just suffering from Global shortages which there's no way That they could control or have an effect on So it's two Different things like the issues I wouldn't even call them Issues I just think that they are they're they're factors And things that you couldn't have planned For or guessed and even then And iGame's investment into this is huge. And they've bought ahead. They risked a lot to go forward with this. So, you know, as far as a partnership goes, you know, like I'm impressed that they would go.
    19:36
    And it feels good. Like we're investing a certain amount in there. But on the manufacturing side, like I can still hit a button and distribute to all, you know, hundreds of millions of players. Right. with the push of a button. They are focusing on growing a very specific segment of this business, and it requires a lot of upfront.
    19:55
    So they're trying to minimize all of the issues that we're facing, but some of it might be like we can't get to 15 different designs in the time that we want, and, well, here's five. I still think that's a fantastic result so far. All right. Well, that's enough of the at-games talk. Jared, let's turn some things over to you so you can get a chance at asking a question or two. Thank you.