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Episode 38 - Hey E3 Over!

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 0m·analyzed·Jul 2, 2017
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TL;DR

Stern Pro Circuit announced; Dutch Pinball details ARA dispute and new manufacturing plans.

Summary

Dennis and Tony discuss recent pinball industry news including the IFPA's announcement of the Stern Pro Circuit (a rebranding of Papa Circuit events starting in 2018) and extensive coverage of Dutch Pinball ongoing crisis with manufacturer ARA. Dutch detailed their contract dispute, financial constraints, decision to find a new contract manufacturer, and pause on Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary production.

Key Claims

  • The Stern Pro Circuit will replace Papa Circuit events starting in 2018, using IFPA's Whopper points system instead of Papa's system

    high confidence · Dennis explaining the IFPA announcement about the new circuit being a collaboration between IFPA, Papa/Replay Foundation, and Stern Pinball sponsorship

  • Dutch Pinball estimates ARA has 40 completed Lebowski machines ready for shipment but has not been paid for them

    medium confidence · Dennis reporting from Dutch Pinball's June 19th webinar: 'Dutch Pinball estimates but does not know that ARA has 40 built Lebowski machines ready for shipment'

  • Dutch Pinball found a new Dutch contract manufacturer with approximately 100 workers and agreed to their quote

    high confidence · Dennis citing Dutch Pinball's newsletter update: 'they have actually already heard back from the contract manufacturer, and they did get a quote, and they've agreed to it'

  • Dutch Pinball lacks sufficient cash reserves to fully build remaining Lebowski units without outside funding

    high confidence · Dennis reporting from webinar: 'they will need outside funding... they don't have the money to fully refund everyone who still is owed a machine'

  • Dutch Pinball's original contract with ARA specified ARA would finance production, with Dutch paying upon machine delivery

    high confidence · Dennis from webinar: 'original contract said that ARA would finance the whole production... Dutch would pay them when completed machines were delivered'

  • Dutch Pinball has not heard from ARA/Nivoji for approximately one month as of the webinar date

    high confidence · Dennis reporting: 'They noted that they have not heard from Nivogeo or ARA for the last month'

  • Dutch Pinball believes they would likely win a lawsuit against ARA based on their signed contract but estimates legal process would take 3-4 years

    medium confidence · Dennis from webinar: 'they do not want to sue ARA because it would be roughly three or four years... they would be very likely to win based on what their signed contract says'

Notable Quotes

  • “They indicated it is said as ARA. So I am right. Everyone else has been wrong.”

    Dennis @ pinball segment, ARA pronunciation discussion — Light-hearted correction of common pronunciation mispronunciation based on official Dutch Pinball webinar

  • “they do not want to sue ARA because it would be roughly three or four years to go through the entire legal process... they're keeping it open in the long term as a possible strategy”

    Dennis @ Dutch Pinball webinar summary — Key strategic decision affecting pre-order fulfillment timeline

  • “Dutch Pinball says that they're not doing any refunds, and instead they're using all of the money they have to try and go after and start the build with a new contract manufacturer”

    Dennis @ Dutch Pinball webinar coverage — Critical policy affecting customer expectations and cash flow

  • “Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary is now on pause. They are not selling any of them. All efforts are going to be about the big Lebowski.”

    Dennis @ Dutch Pinball webinar conclusion — Major project pause indicating resource prioritization crisis

  • “everything they've done to this point puts your trust in them so low that at this point it feels like their dodge is because they don't think they'll win a lawsuit”

    Tony @ Dutch Pinball discussion response — Skepticism about Dutch's legal strategy rationale

Entities

IFPAorganizationStern PinballcompanyPapa CircuiteventReplay FoundationorganizationDutch PinballcompanyARAcompanyNivojicompanyVDLcompanyDennispersonTonyperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball's financial position deteriorating due to lack of new income; Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary failed to generate new revenue

    medium · Tony discussing Dutch's financial depletion: 'They have no income. They're living on what cash they have' and 'Bright at Pinbot 25th anniversary was a disaster. Didn't bring them in any new cash'

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball facing severe cash flow crisis with insufficient reserves to complete Big Lebowski production without external funding

    high · Dennis: 'they will need outside funding. They have enough money, they say, to start the process of the build, but they don't have enough cash reserves to actually build the remaining units'

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball pausing Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary production entirely to focus resources on Big Lebowski crisis

    high · Dennis: 'Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary is now on pause. They are not selling any of them. All efforts are going to be about the big Lebowski.'

  • ?

    community_signal: IFPA and Stern Pinball collaborating on unified competitive tournament structure to strengthen professional pinball scene

    high · Dennis: 'It's going to be a collaboration between IFPA and Papa, or the Replay Foundation... Stern Pinball is going to be sponsoring it'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Bride of Pinbot 20th Anniversary received very little positive reaction at Texas Pinball Festival

    medium · Dennis from webinar: 'there was very little positive reaction to the Bride of Pinbot 20th anniversary' at Texas Pinball Festival

Transcript

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0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, July 2nd. This is episode 38, the Hey E3's Over episode. And don't blow your fingers off. Yeah.
0:30
I'm Dennis. I'm Tony. And we got a lot. We got a lot of pinball and we got a lot of video games since our E3 episode. What's been going on, Tony?
0:41
It's been the pretty standard stuff for, you know, work, kids, family, kids, work, kids, work. I was on call for a while in there, so that was a lot of extra work. And it's just been pretty normal. I did start after seeing all the Shadow of Mordor stuff.
1:01
I got a real big itch to play more Shadow of Mordor, so I've been playing a ton of Shadow of Mordor for the last week or two.
1:10
And I've been also doing some other light gaming. I've been doing a lot of mobile gaming, like I have been. I've been like the Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes and Star Trek Timelines. And since it's free, I ended up on Steam. I ended up starting to play Fallout Shelter again, which I played for a little bit when it originally came out, because that was one of the big announcements at E3 last year. Remember that Bethesda was all like, oh, and this is available now. Yeah, I played it on my tablet some. Yeah, and I played it on my tablet some. And I've still been playing it. I said I pretty much didn't touch it after that because I didn't think it was that great. But now they've done a bunch of updates, and it's still nothing super fancy. But since it's on Steam, it's something I can pull up and throw on one of my monitors and play a little bit for a few minutes and then shut it down, and it's no big deal. So I've been doing that a bunch lately. Because I've got this running issue with anything that pretty much requires my tablet to play. and it's that I don't have access to my tablet like 90% of the time, so I can't actually play them. So I play them on the computer when I can or on my phone, but again, I don't like doing it on my phone a ton because I've got an older phone, things don't run quite as well, and the battery life is like non-existent.
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
  • ?

    licensing_signal: Potential question about ARA's ability to liquidate 40 completed Lebowski machines without Universal licensing agreement

    medium · Tony: 'some people think they can't sell them because they don't have a deal with Universal and they'd be selling big Lebowski-branded licensed product'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Dutch Pinball's original Big Lebowski programmer is no longer employed by Dutch-affiliated company but remains on good terms for potential future collaboration

    medium · Dennis from webinar: programmer 'worked at that company... has left that organization and is employed by another company, but they're still on good terms with him'

  • ?

    business_signal: Possible theory that Dutch Pinball's new contract manufacturer decision may be negotiating tactic to force ARA back to bargaining table

    low · Dennis: 'this whole deal with the other contract manufacturer may be an attempt to force ARA to come back to the negotiating table and lower their pricing'

    • 2:45
    So we've been, with that, I've been doing that. I know Star Trek Timelines is coming in July to Steam as well. Yeah, I've been in a similar boat, except even though I'm most looking forward to, as I noted in the E3 Episode 2, Shadow of Wardor, I decided that I wanted to play more Wolfenstein after we all talked about the Wolfenstein 2 coming out. So I went and I'd had, I either bought it on a sale or got it free on Xbox One. Wolfenstein the Old Blood, which is a prequel to Wolfenstein the New Order. So I was playing that and I beat that. And I'll talk about that more in the video game section because I've never talked about the Old Blood before because I'd never played it before. I've also finally started my Dishonored 2 playthrough, given the discussion about the upcoming kind of quasi-spinoff Dishonored that they're putting out later this year. So I'll talk a little bit about that later. and then it has been sales galore with the steam steam summer sale and xbox has had two different sales they had a sale last week which was sort of their summer sale and they've got another sale going on this week so i'll probably just give brief summaries of those games when we get to our video game segment so right now i'll just say the ones that i bought that i haven't started at all so so just because i won't be talking about them later so on the xbox sale uh there are two that I have not yet started. Saturday Morning RPG and The Turing Test, which I've heard a lot of good things about. So I'm looking, kind of a Portal-like game, I think. So I'm looking forward to starting that one when I finally have time, but I've still got backlogged from Christmas, so who knows when that will be. And then in terms of the Steam Summer Sale, the games that I have not started yet because I bought them all last night were Space Moth DX, Void Invaders, Shmado,
    4:40
    Armand Thien, Cyberpunk 3776 and Waves. Those are all shmups. I like to get shmups on Steam because they don't take a lot of time to play. And it's usually if I'm, my computer's in my bedroom. So when I just sort of usually do PC gaming when I want to chill. So it's just one of those styles that I lean towards. But I've got a whole lot more that I have actually started. So we'll get into those later. But I guess that's it really for intros. So I think it's time for us to pour into the first segment, which is going to be the pinball segment. And even though we both just now talked about video games, there's actually been quite a bit of pinball news. They were very kind to us. They held off on having anything important happen when E3 was going on, which was good. But now they're punishing us for daring not speak of them in the odd, hushed tones that we're supposed to. So we've got three segments that we're going to do. And the first one is probably the shortest one, and that is IFPA, which is the International Flipper Pinball Association, has announced that starting in 2018, there will be something called the Stern Pro Circuit. In a nutshell, I would describe it as the rebranded replacement for the Papa Circuit events. And for those that aren't familiar, PAPA, or the Professional Amateur Pinball Association, they've been holding sort of these really large tournaments, and they have a whole circuit, and there are like 20 tournaments that happen throughout the year. And then based off of a point system they had, those people would go and they would play in the finals, essentially. This is keeping a lot of that concept. I think they're still going to be the 20 tournaments, except instead of Papa Circuit point systems, they're going to be using the IFPA's what are commonly called the Whopper points, which we're familiar with from all our local tournaments. And it's going to be a collaboration between IFPA and Papa, or the Replay Foundation, which owns Papa. And Stern Pinball is going to be sponsoring it, hence the Stern Pro Circuit as the name. But otherwise, I guess it's pretty much the same thing as the Papa Circuit events. I don't think it really changes much of anything, other than if you happen to be a suppressed player on IFPA, I guess you're going to have to unsuppress if you want to do it. Which almost makes you wonder if that wasn't part of the whole thing. You know, it crossed my – I'm sure this has been in the works for a while, given that there are three organizations involved, but it's hard not to wonder a little bit. But on the flip side, it also makes a lot of sense that the Whopper point system has been worked on for years by IFPA. So it makes sense that they're going to want to use it if they're involved, because they're the ones mostly doing the scoring at this point. Papa really was only way, way back. They did. They had a point system, but, you know, they did have their own thing going on for the for the circuit event. And aside from that, the only real thing that confuses me, or it's not so much confusing as it just makes me question, is what does Papa do anymore? I guess they hold a thing. I mean, I know the Replay Foundation has Replay FX and Pinberg. Is Papa just going to be a housing thing for games and they don't really want to be involved in a full-fledged way? I'm not sure because in a way it sort of makes sense. I know pinball is growing and competitive pinball has been growing by quite a bit, but it's still small enough that it doesn't really need two associations running the competitive scene. So I could see one of these two organizations deciding they're going to take a back role, and IFPA has been far more aggressive about promoting pinball than I feel PAPA has been. But, again, I'm an outsider looking in. I don't do anything with PAPA. whereas we usually are at a couple of IFPA events a month, and we're casual players.
    8:39
    Yeah, no, we don't, I don't really have anything to do with POP other than, you know, watching, like, streams of their really big events, because their events tend to be, their tournaments tend to be, like, the premier big events. But, no, I don't really know. I think it makes sense to combine what was kind of a, I don't want to say it was a split, because it's not like we're talking NFL XFL here, but there was a definite two completely separate entities that had the same people and were involved in the same thing, and it makes sense to just pull everything together into one. But at the same time, it feels like, is Papa maybe just going away? I mean, they've kind of been there for the they've kind of been the torchbearer, but it seems like they're definitely taking the backseat to the IFPA. Yeah, and that's what I'm curious about is maybe if IFPA is going to be handling the competitive side of things and Papa, while maybe not totally, I guess, going away, is willing to take a backseat to actually running events and perhaps being more focused on the tutorial setup, on maybe helping out with events and letting IFPA kind of take the lead on scoring them and everything. obviously I don't think the replay FX event is going anywhere it's massive so being involved with that I mean they own a lot of games which is something the IFPA doesn't have but like you I've always sort of associated Papa with more of the prestigious stuff and IFPA to me was more of a little my old fashioned old tiny description was always the IFPA does things for a bunch of little competitive events and then Papa is about the big boys coming out to play and now it's I mean it's been clear all throughout the year that IFPA wants that the whole dollar thing to increase their prestige I mean they have goals for promoting pinball and getting those purse sizes up for those reasons which make total sense but I think it's also been the fact that going to nationals wasn't as impressive if you were to win it as it was to go and win Papa or go and win Pinberg and I've always my sense again it's just you know I'm an ass thing my sense was always I always had a little bit of chip on their shoulder that they did all this work with all these scoring of all these local events, and people still thought Papa was the better organization when it came to top-tier play. So if they're coming together on that, that kind of conflict is alleviated. But anyway, 2018 is when this is happening. I really don't care all that much because I've not done a single Papa Circuit event, and I'm not a skilled enough player to really feel that that's my place to be in. But, yeah, no, I don't. I mean, there are Papa Circuit events that, like Pinburg, that I would like to someday attend and take part in because it sounds like a lot of fun. But I am not a competitive player. I play for fun. I'm not good enough to be competitive. I can't even make it into the state, even come close. I mean, it's just not my primary focus. It's just a fun thing for me. It's not really a super competitive thing for me. So stuff like this doesn't deeply affect me or such, but it is very interesting to see how, as the resurgence continues, it affects stuff that's been kind of, you know, the way it's been flowing ever since. Yeah. But anyway, some of our listeners are probably bigger into the competitive scene than we are, so there you go. Stern Pro Circuit coming at a theater near you. Actually, none of them will be at theaters to my knowledge, so I lied about that. But speaking of lies, let's go into Dutch Pinball. Oh, nice segue. Yeah, thank you. Okay. Dutch Pinball News. There is news. They had a webinar on June 19th. I was actually able to listen, and it was earlier in the day than I had expected. and I have a link to their hosting of the recording of the webinar in the show notes. So people can go and if they want to listen and watch it, it's a video, they can. But let me go ahead and I guess walk through the highlights as best I can.
    13:10
    They went over the history of Dutch Pinball, a real brief history, and what the situation has been with ARA. I want to note as an aside, they indicated it is said as ARA. So I am right. Everyone else has been wrong. They went ahead and started calling it ARA throughout the webinar because they acknowledged that that's what most people are saying, but it is actually called ARA. And the parent organization, however, is not Nivoji, it's Nivoji. So there we go. Heard it straight from the Dutch. That's how we say it.
    13:41
    They apologized for lying about the board issues and instead of admitting up front that there was a monetary disagreement between Dutch and ARA. They noted that the original contract said that ARA would finance the whole production. So they pay for all the parts and everything, and then Dutch would pay them when completed machines were delivered.
    14:01
    They noted that they have not heard from Nivogeo or ARA for the last month. They indicated that they do not want to sue ARA because it would be roughly three or four years to go through the entire legal process. However, Dutch Pinball has insisted that they would be very likely to win based on what their signed contract says. And so they're keeping it open in the long term as a possible strategy, but they don't want to wait that long to ship Lebowski's again. And if they go with the lawsuit, they say that the funds that they still have would have to go into funding the lawsuit, and thus the money would be tied up in legal efforts instead of actually trying to get the machines built now. But ultimately they would be able to ship because they're pretty sure they'd win.
    14:54
    Let's see. Dutch also said that they do not need any outside help at this time. There were a lot of offers apparently from people who preordered, you know, offering advice, offering to, you know, volunteer to help on some things. And they said that they're okay, they don't need any of that, but they appreciate it. they noted that, and I know this will shock you, Tony, that at the Texas Pinball Festival, there was very little positive reaction to the Bride of Pinbot 20th anniversary. No!
    15:20
    I'm shocked! They talked about a contract manufacturer that they had referred to before, VDL. VDL was the manufacturer that was going to do the Bride of Pinbots. They indicated that VDL is interested in building the Lebowskis, but the company is VDL is very large and it takes a lot of time to work between Dutch and VDL to come up with, you know, work out the quotes and everything. So rather than pursuing VDL to do the Lebowski runs, Dutch has been looking at smaller contract manufacturers and that they are in talks to get a quote from one of them and that they were going to hope to have a quote within two weeks of the webinar, which would have been sometime next week after this episode airs. and they noted if the new contract manufacturer, if they can find a deal, but the contract manufacturer won't do what Aura did and finance the production, they will need outside funding. They have enough money, they say, to start the process of the build, but they don't have enough cash reserves to actually build the remaining units to get to the 300 Lebowskis. So they also said they do not have the money to fully refund everyone who still is owed a machine. They would only be able to refund some of the pre-orders. So because of that, Dutch Pinball says that they're not doing any refunds, and instead they're using all of the money they have to try and go after and start the build with a new contract manufacturer. Dutch Pinball estimates but does not know that ARA has 40 built Lebowski machines ready for shipment they do expect that the Lebowskis that will be made by the new contract manufacturer will be at the same quality level as the ones that were coming out of ARA when ARA was still shipping the games the same specs are supposed to be followed Dutch Pinball says they have all the construction plans and that they were hands on at ARA doing the build So they know all that they need to know to get it built.
    17:25
    The Lebowski's, let's see, software on them. They said that they still do plan to do a software update on Big Lebowski. The wizard mode is still missing from the game. They don't know whether or not they'll be able to get the original programmer to help with that. And they clarified a little bit that he never actually was employed at Dutch Pinball. One of the Dutch Pinball owners has another company, and he worked at that company. But he has left that organization and is employed by another company, but they're still on good terms with him.
    17:58
    They did note that in the Netherlands, there is a faster legal procedure that they could use. It can't be used to win money, but it could be used to go and force ARA to build the Big Lebowski at the original contracted price, assuming, of course, that they won. But they're worried that if they go that avenue, that the quality that Aura would engage in on the remaining builds would be really low. And so they have chosen to skip the approach of trying to force Aura to follow the contract. But they want to keep the legal channel open so that they might actually be able to do the longer-term lawsuit to go and win the money back if they can't find the replacement contract manufacturer. and they said that legally they have a five-year window to file the full lawsuit to win the money.
    18:50
    So anyway, there is a faster way that they could try, but they say they don't want Aura to build the machines at this point. They don't trust them.
    19:00
    So the final thing that I noted out of the webinar was Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary is now on pause. They are not selling any of them. All efforts are going to be about the big Lebowski. and that once the quote is in, if it's good, they're going to take steps to get the financing. And I'll just cap all this off by saying that I read yesterday, probably came out Friday, that there was another newsletter update from Dutch Pinball where they indicated they have actually already heard back from the contract manufacturer, and they did get a quote, and they've agreed to it, that they think the quote is reasonable. They have not said who that contract manufacturer is, only that it is a Dutch company, and they have about 100 workers, and that they still have to work out the production planning and the financial planning to get the build done.
    19:47
    Okay, so there you go. That's what I know. You know, it seems like they're trying awful hard to avoid getting courts involved. Yes, and I get it and I don't get it.
    20:04
    I mean, on the surface, the excuse that they don't want to make you wait four years for your big Lebowski, it makes sense, except, you know, they've been making everyone wait already quite a And they've already been lying, and everything they've done to this point puts your trust in them so low that at this point it feels like their dodge is because they don't think they'll win a lawsuit. Yeah, I'm really, I mean, and they're not obligated to do this, obviously, though it would answer a lot of questions, so they could, but they haven't shared the contract. They're just insisting that the contract is completely in their favor.
    20:47
    And it's just, it's a little, I agree, it's just a little weird that they're so certain, but they just, they just don't want to go that avenue. And it seems like all these scenarios that they're choosing to do end up costing them more money. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe not. Given that it was pre-financed by ARA, perhaps they mathematically think, oh, well, you know, we don't have to pay for the 40 machines they're sitting on because they're not going to deliver them. So we actually have only paid for what they've delivered, if that's indeed happened, because the rumor mill is ARA didn't get paid for the ones they already shipped. But I don't know that. Again, that's just someone indicated they heard something. there's been some information that's come out of ARA, but not much, and you wouldn't really expect them to talk with Lebowski customers. So, you know, we only ever hear the Dutch pinball side, really. Right, and if they haven't paid, and they haven't paid for the machines that are there, haven't paid for the machines that are already shipped, how come there's no money? Where's the money? Well, and the people say, well, there is money. It's not as much. Now, it gets a little weird. In the Neverwins, there are like balance sheets that are public there, even for companies like this. So people have looked at the latest one, and it shows that they still do have cash, like a couple hundred or 300,000 or something, I think. And to my knowledge, no one has purchased to get the full financials because those are available as well. But it's sort of a – they haven't had – so they're sitting on some money, but it's been depleting over time. and the belief is that it's because the owners are paying themselves. So it's gone down. They've been spending money even when they're not building. So it's not what it was and they have no new income coming in because as they noted, Bright at Pinbot 25th anniversary was a disaster. Didn't bring them in any new cash. And they're not getting any new money on Big Lebowski's because anyone who's able to get in on a pre-order at this point is just leaving a deposit with an entity like coin taker and that money's not going to Dutch. It's being held in trust.
    23:00
    They have no income. They're living on what cash they have and they've still had expenses that they're spending it down on.
    23:08
    Right, but I understand that any business is going to have that and they're paying themselves and they're this and that. It just seems like for a company that's collected this much money and has done this much work, they're promising all sorts of stuff that requires them to dump even more money, and they have no answer. I mean, there's no way. I cannot believe that they can set up with a new contract manufacturer, do all of the startup cost, start an entirely new run of the Big Lebowski, and come out with it being cheaper than paying for the increases that are requested. I don't know how their contracts were set up. I don't know how the contracts are laid out. I don't know how much more are wanted. But just the setup cost and the retooling cost and everything for the new contract manufacturer, I'd be amazed if it didn't completely cancel out anything that they're trying to save. And like I said, they've said that they require more money. They don't have enough money to start it, but they'll need outside funds to finish it. It just seems everything about it just seems like, oh, God, please give us more money. Please give us more money. See, we're trying. Give us more money. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess I could see them going with an entity that might even cost them more, given that they feel the relationship with Aura is so toxic that they don't trust their build anymore. So even if it was the better deal, that they would turn away from it. But given they quickly acknowledge that they're going with this new contract manufacturer instead of choosing another one, perhaps this contract manufacturer's cost is, you know, maybe it's more than what ARA's original quote was, but it's less than ARA's current quote is. And so it's not as good of a deal as the original ARA contract, but it's a better deal than the one that ARA's insisting on where it's 1,000 more euros a machine, which is what I believe the final. I don't know if it's 1,000 more from the original contract or 1,000 more on top of whatever the last agreement Dutch did give into was.
    25:21
    So there is that. Now, in the webinar, they did note about the financing. I think their thought is if it's pre-financed, and that's, again, this is part of what they said in the newsletter, the financial planning still has to be worked out. And I'm assuming this is a component of it. This new company, maybe it's lower, but the condition is going to be we're not pre-financing. You will give us payments as we need to acquire parts. And so there's no obligation to do a financing model like ARA was doing. If that's the case, then Dutch has to come up with some additional money most likely because their plan was let's get this financing like we had with ARA. Then we only have to pay when we need to deliver the machines. and I could see them perhaps pushing the pre-orders to kind of pull in a Jersey Jack and pushing the pre-orders to the back of the line and saying, hey, coin taker, I've got 50 machines ready for people who have deposits with you and then getting that cash in and sending those machines out and then using the profit on those to go back and fill out the pre-orders who paid the $8,500 by getting the $10,000 people in first. Does that make sense? But in the webinar, they said that they would also consider, like, trying to find an angel investor or doing crowdfunding if they needed to. So, like, Kickstarter-ing it. Oh, that's, no. Oh, baby, no. No, don't. I don't. I have no idea. I have no idea how a crowdfunding thing would ever work or raise enough money, given that the product has already launched. and you know the angel investor idea I guess on the surface is okay except you know most of the time even angel investors need to see like the one is still see a return it's not just someone's like oh I really love this machine let me let the world have 300 of them and I'm going to give you a bunch of money so yeah and if you are an angel investor who just wants to give money to something because you like it we're always available Yeah.
    27:33
    When we get more details, if we get more details about what's going on with the new contract manufacturer,
    27:41
    I still don't think this is the best course of action. Based off of everything they outlined, I actually think what I refer to as the faster legal procedure was probably the best thing, where they wouldn't be able to win money for breach of contract, but the contractors on their side force ARA to do the build. And if the machines are garbage, then I imagine there's a legal process you could do from there. But, you know, I don't know that ARA, honestly, as a significant contract manufacturer, would be deliberately making a trashy product, even if they were forced. I mean, they'd still be getting paid. It would be following the original contract for Dutch's rules. So, you know, it's still, it's not like uncompensated slavery. but you know their complete lack of willingness to start any sort of legal process I'm confused why they're not trying to win a well I guess I mean they say it's because they don't want to type those funds legally but they haven't started legal proceedings against ARA I've wondered if maybe they and this I've wondered because others on Penn's side have brought this up but you know some are thinking this whole deal with the other contract manufacturer may be an attempt to force ARA to come back to the negotiating table and lower their pricing because they won't be able to sell the 40 machines they're sitting on. They'll lose more money if Dutch walks away than if Dutch sticks with them, at least for the 40 they've built. And so they're trying to force them to come back and at least settle on the machines that they've already built and have. Yeah, I mean, I can see that, but it seems kind of hardballish, and I don't see where Aura would really care that much. I mean, if they're so comfortable that they're not overly worried about lawsuits and anything else, because obviously Dutch doesn't want to get the law involved, which makes me really wonder about those contracts,
    29:38
    it seems like, it just seems like a lose-lose situation. And the people who are getting the worst end of the deal are the Dutch, or are the pre-orderers. and they're just stuck. I mean, and even if the new contract manufacturer goes up, and they do, like you said, they get the $10,000 ones done and shipped out to get enough money to finish all the other ones what about the 40 owners whose machines have been done for nine months and are sitting in a warehouse in ours warehouse somewhere Are they going to make 40 extra machines and send to those people and leave the other ones in limbo? Or are those 40 machines considered done and those owners or pre-orders are just stuck until whatever gets figured out with Aura?
    30:35
    Yeah, I don't know. I'm going to guess they're stuck because until, I mean, by the rules that Dutch has indicated that their contract said, they haven't paid Aura for those machines. The rumors aside about whether or not they paid for the ones that got shipped, by all reckoning of how the contract's been described, Dutch has not paid for the 40. So they should still technically have that money. So they need to ultimately get them rebuilt. I could see them doing it, but I imagine that would be the back of the line because maybe R comes and says, all right, we'll let you have the 40 for the original contract. We'd rather have some money than no money. We've already had to spend all the money building them, so let's cut our losses and take what we can get and just be done with it. A smaller write-off, so to speak, but I don't know. Well, and that brings in, I mean, I don't have enough large business experience and how these things work. At what point since Dutch hasn't paid for them can ARA just do whatever they want with the machines? I don't, yeah, I don't know. And I don't know how possible that is or there are certain rules for how that sort of equipment's liquidated because some people think they can't sell them because they don't have a deal with Universal and they'd be selling big Lebowski-branded licensed product, but they can't because R has no relationship with the studio. They have no license. But I imagine, given they've built them, there must be provisions in the contract where they could pursue a legal avenue saying, we built this stuff and these people refuse to take ownership of it. And what can, I mean, I guess Dutch could counter and say, well, they wanted more than the original contract was. But, I mean, if ARA wants at least what the original contract amount says, I imagine it can't be contested and Dutch would have to pay them. And if Dutch doesn't have the money, then I guess ARA has some sort of recourse. Yeah, this is, the situation's been complicated and it's getting more complicated. And when you come down to it, I just, I don't see how you can trust Dutch. They've lied. They lied and they continued lying and an apology for lying. And I know they're trying to be more transparent is what this seems like. They're trying to keep interest up. but this situation just seems like yet another massive pre-ordering fail that is hurting the people in the hobby who actually buy machines. And there doesn't seem to be a way out of it. It just seems like a pit.
    33:25
    And yet people are still pre-ordering machines. I don't understand how seeing all these things people keep pre-ordering machines from anybody with less cred than like Stern or maybe if you're willing to wait the years for Jersey Jack though they've done a lot better with dialed in than they have on any other machine they've kicked out time-wise but this entire situation is just a reoccurring theme that we keep seeing in pinball, but people keep going for it.
    34:03
    Yeah. Some of it's probably speculation. I mean, imagine if you're one of the people that has a big Lebowski and how much you'd probably think you could sell it for at this point. But that just seems like such a risk for maybe it's just, maybe I have the wrong mentality. I'm not a high enough roller. I don't have enough, oh, I'm not enough of, what do they call it in Vegas? I'm not enough of a whale to dump money to take risks like that. But it seems like it is something that is just insane. There were just a lot of different reasons why people got involved. Some people, you know, thought it was a really fun player when they got to try it at shows. I mean, when we had Bowen on, he acknowledged that he thinks it's a really fun game to play. So you had people that just, I mean, they had such good shows. And then they started shipping them. So more people got involved at that point because they thought, hey, it's squared away. They're shipping. So in some ways, it's more understandable than, you know, the Skit B or the J-Pop stuff where there was never a really working product. I guess there were some kind of working predators, though I don't recall ever really seeing anyone who ever said it played well. But, hey, the theme, a lot of it's just the theme. So it moves mountains. But I still, you know, not to be the, what is it, the Debbie Downer, but of all the ongoing companies, this is the one I think is in the most shaky position. I know Highway, it was very public, obviously, with the investor group stepping in, but Dutch hasn't had anyone step in. So I think of all the boutiques, they're probably the one in the weakest position and the most likely to fail. But they're still lingering on. And the news with the new contract manufacturer, by and large, has been, of course, seen as a very, very positive step. Anytime there's anything that isn't, we have no news to report, the reaction is generally pretty positive amongst the community that's talking about it. but I wouldn't leap for joy at this. I mean, they basically got a – they asked someone for a quote, they got a quote, and they told that someone, we like your quote. I mean, that's all that's happened. Yeah, it's just – I don't know. I really do not know what we're going to be seeing out of Dutch. Dutch and Highway both have been just so issue heavy this year And I've got hopes for the new investors at Highway I hope that they can fix everything up But Dutch, it feels like they're flailing at this point That they're just trying to do anything to maintain Which I understand because they are in a terrible place but it definitely hurts their ability because even if they succeed, even if they get everything done and they get Lebowski done and out, will they be able to do a machine two? Will it even be possible? Will they be able to get pre-orders? Will they have enough money to continue and go to a machine two? Or is this going to be a one machine and done mess? Yeah. Yeah, the future outlook is unclear. I mean, honestly, as much work as it was, and they don't have their own manufacturing capabilities, my speculation is we'll never see another pinball machine from Dutch Pinball, aside from the Big Lebowski. Maybe as an organization, if I want to really crystal ball it, if they somehow survive the Big Lebowski, which I'd still lean against. I don't think they're going to get all 300 built. but if they do I could see them perhaps lingering on and refocusing to doing like Brita Pinbot 2.0 kits for other games I could see them where they don't have the huge complications of manufacturer or they I think they have arrangements where they're not even they didn't arrange for the builds for those they came up with all that got it all programmed and everything and they get money every time one's built and sold I could see them doing something them like that is a lot easier. And, you know, but they have to get the Lebowskis done. If they don't get the Lebowskis done, I don't know if there's going to be enough demand to buy things from them anymore because of the burn from the community. Kind of like how when American Pinball first affiliated with J-Pop and there were a lot of people that didn't want to give them any sort of chance because they went with someone who was seen as having stolen from the community because of how bad his failure was. So, and now that they're not affiliated with J-pop, American Pinball is getting a lot of positive reaction based off of just people experiencing the gameplay. Not, you know, they, that drama was a problem for them and that they stepped into and they stepped out of it. And it seems to be doing quite well for them. Do you see this as a, what's the, how do I want to word it? Do you see this as a proof that in-house manufacturing is the way to go for somebody wanting to get into pinball creation, that the reliance on contract manufacturing is just too high of a cost and too much risk? No, I don't. Okay. No, I don't see it as a judgment on contract manufacturing broadly. It's just an issue here that could be handled correct or better with better contracts and better communication with your investor slash pre-orderer slash peoples. Sure. Or if we want to completely think that Dutch is 100% right on all of this, they just picked the wrong one, that R wasn't the right partner. Yeah, it could be. It's going to be interesting to see how this works out. I just don't see a happy ending. Yeah, it's difficult to see that. And so speaking of unhappy endings, let's go ahead and go over into the final pinball segment, which is going to be Skit B and the Predator pinball fiasco. Because there are no winners here.
    40:42
    But there has been a lot of legal happenings. I have done my best to summarize them. I've listened to three separate hearings since E3 and read several legal documents. So I think the best way is to carve this up into four sort of chunks.
    41:04
    The first chunk is going to have to do with Kevin Kulik, who is the owner operator of Skitbee, the guy who was going to build the Predator machines with his wife, Amanda. The trustee and Amanda reach the settlement regarding the house that she owns. For those that don't remember, long story short, the trustee suspects that the home was purchased with predator funds and feels that there's a really clear link to cash transfers going into personal accounts, which were then turned around rapidly and used to acquire a home. The home is only in Amanda's name. That's why it's not involving Kevin directly. the house was appraised at $35,000.
    41:48
    Amanda offered to pay the trustee $30,000 to get to keep the house, and the trustee accepted. So while the judge still needed to sign off, this would resolve the matter for the home, that the trustee would rather take $30,000 than try and sell a home worth $35,000. And there's still a claim against Amanda regarding additional transfers that total about $18,500.
    42:13
    That's not settled with this. This only settles the amount involved for the home. So that was in some documentation. So that's chunk number one. And we'll get back to her later in the last chunk, chunk number four.
    42:29
    But I guess, anything about the settlement concept? It's pretty straightforward. Yeah, it's real straightforward. There's nothing out there that jumps out at me as anything weird or odd other than one thing that it has less to do about this part and more to do with everything else. Have we actually heard from Kevin in months? I don't recall anything since like February. All these other stuff has come up, but I don't recall seeing anything that actually involved him in a long time.
    43:07
    Nope. Okay. Yeah, that's not weird at all. It is what it is. Okay, yeah, no, and none of this will have anything directly to do with Kevin. I didn't think so, because I listened to several of the things as well, and it just hit me that it's like, I don't recall Kevin being anywhere or talking anywhere or being involved in anything in a long time. Yep, and I have no sense as to where the status of all that is.
    43:40
    Let's go into chunk number two, which involves Virtua Pen Cabinets. Virtua Pen Cabinets was the entity that was contracted with Skippy to supply the cabinets. And when I say cabinets, it actually is a little more full-featured than just like the wood itself. But basically, they were going to do the cabinet build for the Predator pinball machines. So that's why they're involved.
    44:05
    And so what happened is – so two things. One I only learned about yesterday. So the first stuff, though, was they had supplied an answer to complaint and some affirmative defenses. I have a link to those documents in the show notes. But what this means is they went and they denied that Skitbee bought the CNC machine, which is used for cutting the cabinets and such, or that Skitbee bought it and then transferred it to VirtuaPen. So part of the issue is the trustee is claiming the CNC machine should come back to the estate because Skitbee paid for it. VirtuaPen is saying Skitbee doesn't have a claim on the CNC machine, so it's not theirs to take. then they also claimed that they provided reasonable value for all the payments they received from Skippy so what that is is the trustee feels that there's sizable sums of money the nutshell story is they paid tens of thousands of dollars to VirtuaPen and all VirtuaPen did is give them 10 cabinets so where's the rest of that money it wasn't refunded VirtuaPen's saying everything that they got money for, they supplied stuff back for. So that there's no excess. Everything was accounted for. Then, on top of those two answers, VirtualPen has issued a counter claim lawsuit against the trustee, saying that in that they walked through the arrangement that was made between VirtualPen and SkitBee, and what happened when VirtualPen learned that there was no actual license for the Predator IP to be applied to the pinball. They pointed out what the trustee counsel, which is the attorney, Keith Nathanson, who's representing the trustee in these matters, about his involvement on the Pinside Forum, and claimed that Nathanson took legal actions and wrote things in legal documents specifically to embarrass VirtuaPen, relying on that he knew the documents would ultimately get shared on Pinside, where VirtuaPen tries to gain a lot of business. So this document's like over 80 pages long, and I think over half of it is just Pinside posts as like appendices to claim that the VirtuaPen business has been harmed by the accusations by the trustee. And so VirtuaPen feels that the trustee should have known that these claims were false because of a prior deposition that VirtuaPen agreed to do with Nathanson. And so the counterclaim is for defamation and libel. So that's all in that written document. The additional tack-on item, which is also going to be linked in the show notes, is there was a hearing on the 23rd, but I only heard it yesterday. And so this hearing involved VirtuaPen. VirtuaPen has changed counsel from the last hearing. There's a, I didn't catch her name. They have a, there's a female attorney representing them now. They had a different attorney, a male attorney was representing them before. The hearing's about 45 minutes long, but it's not particularly interesting. I almost didn't even bother to link it. But it kind of deals with, in the last hearing, as we had covered, the default judgment was set aside, but there were some penalties assessed for making the trustee have to deal with the delay.
    47:36
    And so what basically happens is in this hearing, the new attorney and Nathanson agree that the prior attorney owes the penalties, not VirtuaPen, that the lawyer is the one at fault. So he has to pay it personally. And they also agree to share some documentation and stuff. So anyway, there's a link there, but it's not particularly compelling. I think the complaint itself and the counterclaim is more interesting that that was not dealt with at the hearing. So that's chunk number two. Does that make sense?
    48:05
    Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, most of this was just setting aside all the issues. I find the counterclaim interesting, but I can understand why they would want to because, well, Virtuopen is tied to the community, and there is a lot of nastiness on the community,
    48:29
    and I can definitely understand why they would be concerned about how it makes them look, especially with, like on Pennside and other locations, what the discussions look like and how nasty some of that stuff has been getting. Yeah, but it's going to be a tall order to prove that the attorney deliberately was engaging in libel. Oh, I don't think it'll work. I think it's an attempt and a, what do you want to call it? It's a kind of just a, like a shot across the bow. It is an attempt to throw them off and say, hey, we don't like this. But I don't see where there's a real chance of it succeeding Because it would just There's a lot of claims and we haven't gotten even close to many of them But there is a whole lot of claims that are flying around out here now That if even a quarter of them are true Would mean that the trustee would like lose his license pretty quick And I just have a hard time believing that he would be involved in something that would lose his livelihood over something that's so unimportant in the grand scheme of the world while being vitally important to those people actually involved.
    50:02
    It's interesting, and I guess we'll see if the counterclaim really moves forward much or not. I mean, I'm assuming it probably will as an issue to be dealt with. And one of the things that was sort of interesting in the audio of the virtual pen hearing was in the past, the issue for the attorney was there was a $900 judgment. And that was for basically the default judgment and having to cancel the default judgment and consuming the trustee's time to deal with that. But in this hearing, there's also there's a second element to it, because one of the things that prior attorney for VirtuaPen had claimed was that they were improperly served, that it wasn't proper to serve by regular U.S. mail in a bankruptcy hearing. So Nathanson, the trustees council, had to research and write up why it is okay in bankruptcy hearings to serve by regular mail. They added another $900 on that attorney for making such a false claim that that wasn't allowable for his research time. It actually started at $2,500, and Nathanson said, just charge him for three hours of my time at $300 an hour. So that's why it's another 900 instead. But they penalized that attorney for making up that claim. Yeah. And I almost wondered if that was kind of a warning shot that if you end up consuming the trustee counsel's time on frivolous matters, that he will seek his fees back so that the trustee doesn't have to pay it out of the estate. And we'll see what this new attorney – from what I could hear from her in the hearing, She sounded far more engaged and competent than when I heard the VirtuaPens original attorney. So I think they've chosen a better attorney at this point, without a doubt. All right, now we're going to get into the juicy stuff.
    51:55
    Those are the boring ones. These are the good ones. All right, so chunk number three of our skit before chunk course meal. That doesn't make it sound appetizing when I call them chunks.
    52:07
    This one has to do with Kevin's mom, Kathy. She had a hearing on June 22nd. 22nd, I've got a link to the audio in the show notes, in which she claims she bought the trailer that, I guess I need to recap really quick. The trustee has brought a suit against her as a defendant because there was a trailer, like a camper trailer that she owns, and there was a Facebook post that indicated, showed her thanking Kevin for helping her get the trailer. So the assumption was that this could have been bought with Predator money, and thus it should come back to the estate. But she's claiming she bought the trailer, that the trailer cost her $250 plus $20 delivery fee, so $270.
    52:55
    She then launched into a series of accusations that she had been followed and threatened and that it was due to the trustees' counsel, Keith Nathanson, and that he specifically had been seen waving a gun around, encouraging violence, encouraging people to break into her trailer, and that he doxxed her Facebook account and released her personal information publicly. She claims that she thinks the entire process is a witch hunt.
    53:22
    Nathanson did weigh in. He was by and large quiet during all of this, but he did deny her claims when the judge asked and said they were spurious and that they were borderline actionable. so that, but he did not say he was taking action, legal action against her for making them.
    53:41
    He said her claims said that she wasn't really involved. Let me rephrase that. He said that her claims that she wasn't really involved, which came up during the discussion, that she wasn't really involved in the Predator pinball fiasco, that she's just a mom. She said that before. She's just a mom. She didn't really help with any of that stuff.
    54:06
    But it runs counter to the statements she made because she had attended pinball shows helping try and sell the machine. And she had a variety of roles listed on the Skippy website, which claimed she was the legal department, that she was the floor manager, that she was the accounting department.
    54:23
    In response to that, she emphasized at this hearing yet again that she's a mom and that she was just supporting her son. Like, so, like, if he wanted to list her on the website to claim she was doing something, she was fine with that because she wanted to encourage him.
    54:36
    And so with all of that, what the judge decided is that the Facebook data thanking Kevin for the trailer wasn't enough evidence that Kevin actually bought the trailer. And Kathy claimed that the thank you was for him helping arrange, like, the plot of land to place it, not thanking him for buying it. So basically what it means is that she had a meritorious defense. So she had not showed up for a hearing, and thus there was a default judgment against her that the trailer had to go to the estate. This sets aside the default judgment, which means it goes to trial. She hasn't won. It just means that she doesn't automatically lose.
    55:17
    And as a final piece of this chunk, Kathy did ask that she wanted the photos of her grandchildren off of Pennside. So the judge issued an order, but he noted that the order could not be enforced. He had no authority to enforce it, and that the trustees' counsel, Nathanson, said he would contact the site administrators to get it removed. That actually did come up in the VirtuaPen hearing the next day, where the judge asked about it, and Nathanson said the administrators already responded to him and told him that they had removed the ones that had the faces of the grandkids. So that's chunk number three, the more dramatic chunk. what are your thoughts on the third chunk Tony? I've listened to it and it was interesting I actually agree with the judge the Facebook post did seem ambiguous but I don't know a lot of her claims were really kind of out there and the whole thing was just me pretty much sitting there listening to it going what is this it didn't feel like what you would expect to hear in a courtroom. It felt like redneck law and order. It was really weird. Wham, wham.
    56:36
    But we'll see what happens. One thing I did find interesting in both this and the following one is the continuous reference to Pennside, not as Pennside and not as a forum, but as an adult website. Pictures of my children on an adult website. They're there. They're trying to hurt my kids. They're on an adult website. I'm like, come on. It's not Pornhub.
    57:05
    It's not something terrible like that. It's a thing. And, yes, I would never let my kids read the Skip Bee thread on Pinside because it is a giant burning pile of hatred,
    57:23
    and there are people in that thread who, even knowing how badly they've been ripped off and how much it has gone to and how everything has gone, there's a lot of people in that thread who need to sit back and take a deep breath because as some of the stuff we'll talk about here in just a little bit longer on this thread, they're starting to get a little scary.
    57:53
    Yeah, and I should have mentioned that. Yeah, she kept referring to it. She never described it, to my knowledge, as a pinball forum at all. She just kept calling it an adult website. Now, in her defense, perhaps she last visited Pinside back when it was still just laden with boobie photos all over the place because historically, Pennside positioned itself for this exact accusation. I don't mean the moderators or the management, but in terms of what the users engaged in, yeah, I mean, this is not an accurate description of Pennside now. It is not designed for just being adults. And calling it an adult site obviously implies pornography, which is not what it is about. No, that's what they did on purpose. That was obviously purposely done. That is something that is. And in the other stuff that they've, not just to the judge, they have other stuff on public places that is posted that refers to it continuously as an adult website and implies and pretty much straight up says it's pornography at times. I mean, not quite, but the implication is so obvious the way they're laying things out.
    59:04
    But it's just, it's kind of sad, really. I mean, I understand they're fighting for this and saying it that way makes their case look better and stuff, but it's just sad and really, really disturbing. What did you think of the accusations about the trustee counsel, Keith Nathanson, going and waving weapons around and telling people to break into her trailer? I actually started, I had to pause because I started laughing during this just because it's so ridiculous.
    59:43
    I'm just trying to envision this attorney who's like, hmm, well, I could try and win the case or I could wave my guns around. I just had this picture of him running down the street, probably covered in marshmallow fluff, waving guns in his hands, just going, yeehaw. Yeah I mean you talking about waving guns and intentionally sending stuff to the wrong address and going up and canvassing the neighborhood and talking to the neighbors and telling the neighbors how evil you are for no reason other than to have the neighbors know that you a monster I mean that the kind of stuff that it came across as what they were saying and claiming And it's just like, this is a lawyer who doesn't live there. He lives a fairly long way away from there. And as I recall, he said in one of the things, he's only ever been there one time, period.
    60:42
    Oh, regarding her trailer, he'd only ever seen it through Google map photos. He had never visited the site of the trailer. But her claim that he was taking photos of them. And the other thing is, all their talk about this, oh, he's hacking to get all this information and stuff, and it's like, there's pictures and stuff being posted that you post on an open Facebook and on websites that, and here, if it's on the internet, it's public. I mean, if you're walking down the street in the middle of the day, that's public. If you're posting on the internet in some place that's not massively protected, it's public. And even if it's massively protected, somebody's probably going to get in there, but you can at least assume that it wasn't going to be public. But having it on a website that just requires you to go to the website to look at it, you have no, in my mind, no rights to privacy. I mean, if I put up something on joebob.com, I can't get upset that somebody took a picture that I put up on joebob.com and posted it and take it somewhere else and is referring, oh, look what Tony posted on joebob. And, oh, he posted this. I mean, how could I be upset about something that's posted not locked, not passworded, something that I intentionally post for people to see and then get mad because the wrong people saw it? Well, she did claim that she had the highest of the privacy settings on Facebook, though. And I've not been to her Facebook page. But from what I've heard, it remains publicly flagged to be seen by anyone. So, you know, maybe she thought she did, but it sounds like she didn't.
    62:34
    Oh, well, let's go ahead and jump into the last chunk since everyone's blood is up now. This one is back involving Amanda, which is Kevin's wife, the one we talked about earlier about the house. So she also had a hearing on June 22nd, just after Kathy's hearing wrapped up. I have a link to that audio as it's segregated out. So they're two different chunks, but it's in the show notes so people can listen to this one as well. the hearing starts off discussing the settlement offer for the $30,000 for the $35,000 valued house they walk through the facts of the claim and what both sides perspectives were regarding because amanda's uh claim is that her the money was like from her grandmother that she was depositing its cash deposits but she hasn't been able to provide a comprehensive paper trail to prove it and she acknowledges that it looks really bad given that kevin did the transfers from skip b into the account. And so while she says she bought the house with her money, she doesn't want to argue it anymore. And she just wants to be sure she can keep the house. So she, you know, she, you know, she goes through all that, explains about her photography work and her own income and all that, and that she denies all wrongdoing, but it's all about putting it behind her. And the ending the harassment, she's saying she's getting a lot of harassment. And she also, much like Kathy, He specifically accuses the trustee's counsel, Keith Nathanson, of harassment. Nathanson refuted these claims. I felt he was more passionate about their refutations when it came up at this point. And he offered to read conversation notes into the record to counter some of her claims because one of the things was she claimed had to do with another judge that Kevin had to go to. And Nathanson had – this was about a hearing that got delayed, and then they couldn't do a particular date because Kevin claimed he had another court case. And according to Nathanson, all he did was call that court and confirm that, indeed, he really did have another court case. But Amanda's recounting of it, well, people can get the details from the notes. It's quite dramatic. But basically it was that he had called the judge and was, like, trying to conspire with him and all. Again, it was some pretty outlandish sort of claims. Not quite as outlandish as Kathy's, but the judge did ask Amanda for receipts for her work done for Skit Bee because she was the photographer who took pictures of the machines and such, and so she actually had some work product that she did for the company. And so she claims she provided the receipts already, but that she can do so again. And it's that work product that's relating to back when we were talking about the house settlement, I mentioned there was this $18,501 that was not part of that settlement. That relates to her work she did for SCIT-B.
    65:24
    And so that's why these receipts are coming up in this discussion. The judge told the trustees' counsel, Nathanson, to check with the creditors who are doing the whole claim against Kevin. And if they don't object to the settlement, he's fine with moving forward for the $30,000 settlement. So he's good with it. He'll sign off on it. It just had to do with that. And while I could just end the chunk there, I do want to note that after all of this happened, it just recently came out that this house, the $30,000 settlement for the $35,000 house, which is built in a floodplain, oh, yeah, just flooded. 11 feet of water purportedly and initially there was a crowdfunding effort that was at youcaring.com to help the family out seeking $5,000 to replace damaged stuff I'm not going to have it in the show notes because it's not there anymore. They apparently from what I'd heard lowered the ask to $250 which automatically closed it out and they removed the page because they'd already generated like $280 some dollars and And a lot of negative comments regarding the Predator issue had started appearing on places like Facebook that had referenced seeking money to help with the flood damage. And there was a news piece with video that came out that also talked about how they lost everything. And comments on that news piece and comments on the news station's Facebook page about the Predator thing had appeared as well. So that's the final Skip Beat chunk. What are your thoughts? It's a lot of the same And the way she talked And her defenses were a lot of the same And the house flooding Is It's in a flood plain That floods every year I mean That's going to happen And I feel terrible for the kids I Like the conversations With this earlier And in the past the conversations about Dutch The conversations about Magic Girl I can't understand the whole pre-ordering of stuff from unknown companies. I also can't understand intentionally living in a floodplain and then being surprised when it floods. Yeah, and apparently they had to be rescued by... Yeah, they had to be rescued. Now, the flood was big. The flood came up fast. They had a ton of rain. but at the same time you're in a floodplain, and they've said in the past that it floods every year.
    68:09
    So it flooding again shouldn't be a surprise. And I can understand where they would be looking for help. I don't have any problems with people looking for help in situations like this because when something really bad happens, that's what people do is they come together and they help the people who have been hurt.
    68:40
    My only question is, is if they need this much help, then where did all of that money go? Where has that money gone?
    68:49
    I mean, because there's been lots of talk that the money, oh, the money is gone, the money was spent, it bought this house. Well, the house isn't worth that much. Where's the rest of it? Who bought the trailer? Well, the trailer isn't. Even if the trailer's worth ten times what Kathy says the trailer costs, it's not worth that much.
    69:11
    The house isn't worth that. It's in a floodplain. It's going to be almost impossible to sell anyway because of where it is.
    69:20
    All of these things just comes up to, and everything in the show is, It's where is, what happened to that actual money? Where did it go? What did it get spent on? Because if they're not setting on it, if they, you would think if they are still having, you know, a place in a flood plain and this and that, where is it, where did it go? I mean, that's the question. And I feel bad for the kids.
    69:47
    I feel bad. I mean, I feel bad for the family, but especially because of the kids. This is a situation if there were no kids involved, I really wouldn't care.
    69:58
    The kids didn't choose the environment that they're in. The kids didn't choose for their parents to be involved in what they've been involved in. The kids didn't choose to have this coming down on top of them. And with everything else, they're suffering. and I'm not saying that Kevin and Amanda don't have responsibility. They have responsibilities in everything, but I feel bad for how the kids have been hurt through their actions and through this whole situation. Yeah, obviously with the issue with the flooding, It brings a lot to home in terms of, you know, just this, regardless of what's happened, this family doesn't exhibit behavior like it's rolling in cash. I don't know. A lot of people think that. There's some that think they've squirreled it away and are hiding it. My, you know, my sense is probably not. It's probably spent. Now, that doesn't mean that it's all spent in the way that, you know, that is just like it was completely just blown through. Maybe Kevin does have a whole bunch of arcade and pinball machines that he can't really readily sell because everyone knows he's affiliated with all this stuff, but maybe he's using it to run a secret route. Maybe he did. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen with the VirtuaPin thing, but if he gave $100,000 over to that, whether or not you get the machine back, maybe. I mean, no one's expecting that they're going to get all their money back. It's got to be spent to some degree. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. I also don't know where Kevin is in any of this because, you know, obviously there's no requirement that he appear in the news piece. But Amanda was in it. Kathy was in it. The grandkids were in one of the rescue photos, I think. I mean, it's like so it's sort of a well, where's Kevin? Where's Kevin? And Amanda, his wife, has always made it sound like he's in a lot of ways really, really disengaged. But purportedly, he's the one taking care of the kids because she's the one working. I don't know what the flood changes are. It sounds like Amanda still wants to keep the house and is just trying to get it repaired. I don't see what it helps going around. I get it. Some people are looking at this and they're asking for a handout and they stall. So we want to tell people and let them not get a handout. Some of the comments, I mean, I don't even say borderline bullying. Some of them sounded like bullying to me. Yeah. Some of them were pretty bad. We understand a lot of people are going to see people that just got five kids and they just lost where they're living and their furniture and stuff. And their immediate reaction isn't going to be, oh, they deserved it, so yay. Yeah, I mean, I don't really know if it complicates things, though, or not. I mean, the lawsuit's the lawsuit. The settlement's the settlement. I mean, the only thing I can think of that in regards to the discussion we've been having that's actually relevant to pinball is whether or not Amanda ultimately wants to go forward and try and come up with $30,000 to keep the property. Because she might not want to. To me, I think she still does. But, you know, that's her decision because the trustee's office is just as happy taking the land, which I'm assuming it's the $35,000 appraisal is probably just the land. It probably has some sort of value for something. I don't know, crops or something. I don't know. I don't know how easy it is to rezone it. I have no idea what that, I mean, I know rezoning takes time, a lot of time, and it's a real, it can be a real pain. I mean, just down the street from me, a bunch of areas got rezoned, and that took like four months of stuff to get the rezoning done. Sure, but this is in an unincorporated area. I mean, here in Kansas, half the counties don't have zoning. True. So if she's out in an area that doesn't do zoning, I mean, I was thinking that I think floodplain areas are often attractive to farmers because they get nutrient loaded by the – we're now becoming the Eclectic Farm Podcast, which fits every Kansas stereotype, so I'm disgusted by it. But, you know, I mean, land like that has value.
    74:21
    Floodland can be good for things. So it's not good for homes, though. I wouldn't want to live there. But anyway, yeah, it's an interesting tragedy that just kind of came on top of all of this other stuff. But, I mean, you know, we'll keep our eyes on this as best we can. But it's, yeah, there's been a lot of negativity, especially if anyone had heard the hearing and heard the accusations that Amanda made against Nathanson. I got a lot of people's blood up, and some of them, I think, posted some well-reasoned kind of warning statements on some of those comments, and some of the comments were really aggressively negative in an almost unhelpful way, I would say. It just depends. I mean, I can't fault people for wanting to say, you know, there are lawsuits going on. You know, I think you need to be cautious around when they're asking, when they're making deliberate asks like we want someone to come in and replace all our carpet and repair our walls for free. You know, I can understand why that upsets people. Yeah, no, definitely. That's definitely understandable where that is upsetting to some people. And at the same time, I can understand where a lot of the responses to people and if I'm going to, I would actually recommend that you not do this. But if you see some of the, the local news sites where they are talking about the Coolix and the flooding, the comment sections have really makes pinballers look bad. I understand that these people are upset and why they are upset, but I don't think they're helping their cases with how they are making comments and the stuff that they are saying. Because some of those comment sections are just as toxic as the Pennside thread about the situation is.
    76:13
    And they are, I haven't even, I don't even read them anymore. I will look at them on occasion just when something comes out to get a feel. But they are just so nasty that I feel it hurts everybody involved, those who've lost money. And I think it's doing bad things to them. And it hurts their case, in all honesty, with how badly it makes them look. it gives the Kulik's ammunition in court against them. I did see one of the places, one of the comments said, actually, it wasn't a badly written comment. The only problem I had with it was at the end, it said for more information, and it linked to the Pinside thread. Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No one in their right mind would ever read that entire monstrosity of the thread. and with it, it goes off topic, it goes toxic. It's just like, no, if anything, you need someone to put up like a blog post with a summary. You do not want people, you do not want the public going into that thread. It's all over the place. In fact, if they start at the very beginning of it, and I don't know, I didn't click on the link, so I don't know if it jumped right to a key segment or not, but if it started at the very beginning, it would be a whole bunch of people singing the praises of Predator Pinball. I mean, it's just that it makes sense to have that singular thread on pin side. It does not make sense for the non-pinball public to ever look at that thread. Yeah. At best confusing. At best. Well, and that has to do kind of with how the forum is with keeping topics into a single thread and not splitting into sub-threads, which is good and bad. I mean, it has its pluses and its minuses. All right. We're done with pinball, finally. Yeah, I feel like I need to take a shower. That was... There was a lot of news, but it wasn't a lot of happy news. I mean, really, aside from the Stern Pro Circuit, it's all pretty kind of just informative slash dire, depending on which company and what thing we're focused on. But we're going to do video games now, and I think there's a lot more optimistic. But again, it's all a matter of perspective. So I guess let's start with the SNES Classic. The Super Nintendo Classic got announced. Tony? I know it's another one of those greatly kept secrets that we'll see if it turns out better than it did on the NES Classic, which I never ended up getting one and I don't really miss the fact that I didn't get one after seeing some of the issues with it. But I'm really concerned that they're going to end up having the same issues with this NES. Yeah, baseline information that we know thus far The SNES is going to be $80 The NES Classic was $60 This will come with two controllers The NES Classic came with one controller This will be coming with 21 games Including the never formally released Star Fox 2 I know there are some ROMs of it Whereas the NES Classic came with 30 titles It's supposed to be a limited run Like the NES Classic was it's supposed to only be this year, but they claim they will be better prepared this time for the brand. So I guess that's an implication that they do plan to make more of them than they did Nez Classics. Okay. So all that said, you know, you noted your issues that you had with the information that was coming out of the Nez Classic. Do you have a lot of concerns on this one? Are you excited about this one? I have some concerns.
    80:11
    Some of them are design concerns. Like, I know the NES Classic had really, really way too short cables on the controllers.
    80:21
    And the lack of availability on something that should have been obviously a huge thing. But at the same time I think Overall We're going to be seeing Another hit for Nintendo I think it's going to be huge They're going to sell everything The Star Fox 2 thing is insane I mean that's so awesome And the game list is Impressive I mean Contra 3, Donkey Kong Country, Earthbound Final Fantasy 3, F-Zero A Link to the Past Mega Man 10, Secret of Mana I mean these are great games And It's going to be a huge thing I think it's going to go And for Mike so he doesn't get angry that I forgot to mention Super Metroid which is Pretty much considered the best Metroid game And possibly one of the best Games ever by certain people I think it's going to be hit I think it's going to go huge I just worry that there's going to be like the Nest where you can't get a hold of any of them ever and that it's going to be a situation where, once again, you see scalpers selling this $80 machine online for $500 and people are buying it. Yeah, I did end up with a Nest Classic. It was a gift from my mom, and she actually bought me one and then said, oh, it was really expensive, and I found out she basically got it from one of the scalping groups for like $150. They were not as high back then, and I had her send it back because I said, that is not necessary. This stuff is so easily emulated. You know, I just thought it looked cool. It was neat to have one from Nintendo with a little, you know, with a little NES shape and all that. Yeah. You can do a Raspberry Pi on all this stuff. So she sent it back, and eventually she got one at the, she was able to get one at the proper retail price of $60, which, you know, the price of a new game. I was like, yeah, it's fine. It's worth that for what it is. But, yeah, I think, as you've noted, the game selection here is great. Like, all 21 of these titles, I think, were excellent choices. They're all classics, except for Star Fox 2, obviously, which will excite a lot of people. I think $80 is too much for this. I mean, not too much in the sense that I'd be like, don't buy it too much. But I get that it comes with a second controller, but why didn't they bump it up to 30 games? There are 30 classics NES games. I don't understand why they scaled it back. And power-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to break this puppy open and break open a NES Classic and see that it has the exact same hardware, because the emulation of 16-bit is so easy now. So I just don't think this was a lot of work for them. But like you, I think this is going to be a hit. I think it's actually going to be a bigger hit than the NES Classic. I think there are more fond memories of this console. I didn't have a whole lot of games for this console, but it looked great. There are a lot of people who have the means that were at the age bracket that the SNES would have been their first console. And even for those that wasn't the first, I mean, compared to what I had with the NES, which, you know, while it had its own graphics processor, it was still basically the same processing of the Atari 2600. It looked way better, but it was that leap forward. I still remember getting mine and playing Zelda and just being amazed that they had rain, that it was raining on the screen. That was the most visually impressive video game thing I had ever seen, because it had never been done before. Yeah, it's one of those things that is just...
    84:08
    I had a NES, I had a lot of NES games. I thought the NES Classic had some fun games in it, but I didn't think that every single game in the NES Classic was huge, where I think literally my least favorite games in the SNES Classic is probably going to be either Donkey Kong Country, though people are going to hate me for it because I know that game is super popular, and I just didn't really like it that much, or like the Kirby games just because I never really got into Kirby. But everything else Are huge amazing Really good games So yeah This system is even more interesting To me than the other But like you I don't know if I'm willing to spend the $80 On it I mean Not when I could do Not when I could take a Raspberry Pi And build a system that will play all of these games Plus more plus all the NES games And do everything else in the same price range. Yeah. I mean, my dad likes to do little pie projects. It just appeals to him. And he gave me a gaming one quite a while ago. So I probably have a bunch of these games already. I haven't decided. I might wishlist it and just, you know, see if someone else was to buy it for me. I don't plan to go out and get one. But this does beg a question that I thought would be good to end on before we move away from the SNES Classic. So, 2018 Tony, Are we getting an N64 classic? Is it going to come with three controllers and 12 games for $100? You know, I could see it. Honestly, I could see it. Just because I could see Nintendo doing something like that. And they'll get more love than hate, and it'll sell amazingly, and they'll be like, well, we ran out. We just didn't make enough. This whole limited run thing, this forced limited run thing. This Disney Vault crap. Yeah, the Disney Vault. I hate this stuff. It's like, you know people want it, sell it. Sell it until people don't want it anymore, then sell something else. Forcing the, forcing it so people who, I mean, it just makes people not want it. I mean, a lot of these games are stuff that people have had, and there are people out there who have problems with, like, emulation and with stuff like that. And, I mean, I don't have an emulator, and I've considered getting one, but I've never done it.
    86:41
    But at the same time, there are people who want things that look like the original, that gives them the feeling, that gives them the desire, but they don't want to go through and make something or buy something. They don't want to buy, have someone make for them something that's going to be more complicated than just literally press the button and do it, and it looks like the original and it's an official title. I mean, if you're going to do this, do it correctly. I mean, sell it.
    87:10
    There's Atari ones like this that look like the Atari control sticks or the Atari games and you can just walk into Walmart or Toys R Us or something and buy one. They never run out and they go, oh, well, we're not making any more because we made 70,000 of them and we sold them in a week, and we just don't see a reason to make any more. It's just that forced scarcity crap is just stupid. It's all a part of that.
    87:42
    Nintendo's corporate culture, they just make a lot of really bad decisions. They're very innovative, probably the most innovative console manufacturer of modern times, but there's still just so many decisions that just make very little sense to me. And as regards to the N64, obviously I'm being a bit facetious with, like, the free controller. You know, I don't imagine it would come with three controllers.
    88:03
    I wouldn't be – yeah, I could see them doing it. I could see them doing it for $100, probably two controllers. I doubt they'd go down to 12 games. But I don't know. The thing that holds me back is twofold. One, while I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the same hardware powering the SNES is what powered the NES, I don't think you could just pie your way through on the N64. No. I'm not sure. I don't think so. So it would actually probably mandate some higher level. I mean, again, it wouldn't have to be really that elaborate. It's going to be, quote, unquote, cheap equipment because of how old that tech is. But it'd probably take more than that. So it's not a simple repurposing. and I don't think the N64 has the same level of nostalgia that the SNES and the NES do because that was when we were getting into that weird realm of like the Dreamcast and stuff. I mean, I don't know if the Dreamcast was the same generation, but I mean, that was back when you had the, it felt more competitive, you know. I mean, the SNES and the Genesis were around the, you know, they were the same period, but the SNES had such a huge market share, and I just, a lot of people started to drift around other things when the N64 was out, PC gaming was on the rise then, so it wasn't all console anymore, so it was different Yeah, and I'm looking at the listed, it's a list of the top 25 N64 games of all time and there's like 4 good games in there I mean, I'm sure those games are huge for other people but I mean, the N64 would give you the original Super Smash Brothers Ocarina of Time Mario 64 GoldenEye which is probably I consider the go to Majora's Mask And then a whole Lot of less Fun stuff I don't know Banjo Kazooie's got some Huge following for some reason that I'll never Understand But yeah It's a good point maybe they'll just do like a portable Game Boy with all the Game Boy games on it. Ooh that would be an original Game Boy with Yeah well because you just crammed so much on an SD card or whatever Well all it needs is Tetris anyway and everybody would be happy That all anybody ever played It was the greatest game ever Yeah that what I put most of my time on
    90:32
    Okay, so anyway, SNES Classic, coming to a store to be sold out soon near you. Okay, next video game, another news announcement. Pinball FX3 has been announced. No date was provided, but it appears it's going to come out sometime this year. looks like it's going to be out on Steam, Windows 10, Xbox One, and PlayStation 4. So kind of like the prior one. Well, I don't know. Yeah, Pinball FX 2 is on Windows 10 also.
    91:01
    The big change from the Pinball FX 2 is it's going to introduce challenges. I don't, from the way it read, I think it's going to work like the Pinball Arcade where those in-game objectives like make the skill shot or get the score or activate this multiball. So they want to add something that looks like to have you try and do things beyond just trying to play for score and not drain.
    91:24
    So anyway, that's all I really know about it. I have high hopes for it. I think, you know, Pinball FX2 is arguably it or the Pinball Arcade, you know, take your pick, is the best virtual pinball game on the market.
    91:40
    There's a lot I really like that Pinball FX2 does. Obviously, the pinball arcade is nice because they're converting physical tables into virtual, but there's a lot of creativity that we've seen on some of the pinball FX2 tables. Some people think the physics are better in it than in the pinball arcade. That's the debated part, is which one has better physics. I like them. They're both, I think, solid. I like the whole digital and the things they can do while still maintaining the feel of pinball in the virtual pinball setup.
    92:17
    I've got questions about, well, never mind. This actually just answered my questions. I was looking it up, but you do get to bring over your FX2 purchases to FX3 for no charge. Oh, yeah. Okay, good. I didn't know that. That was my biggest question, my biggest concern. But I'm on the Steam page right now, and it says, free backwards compatibility, bring your previous Pinball FX2 purchases with you to Pinball FX3 at no charge. Okay. They did that with Pinball FX. They did let two get in the – I mean, I know they put the – let me rephrase that. I know they ended up putting the Pinball FX tables on Pinball FX 2. I don't know if they did a thing where if you were buying it on the same hardware, if they, if backwards compatible or not. Because I did not buy Pinball FX. I played it. I played someone else's copy. But I only got in at Pinball FX 2. Yeah, and I've only played FX 2. So I'm glad to hear about that. Because that was my biggest question. Because I know there's a lot of people who have all these other tables. and that would like to have the multiplayer and the community-focused stuff that seems to be the driving force of FX3, but at the same time don't want to buy all new tables, or worse yet, buy repurchased tables you've already purchased. Like we were just talking about Nintendo. I know Nintendo has the very bad thing with their virtual consoles. when you get a new system a lot of times. It's like, oh, I bought Castlevania on my last system, but I've got to buy it again because the new virtual console won't use mine, except my old one, and stuff like that, which can be a hindrance to players that are your core. They're the players who were with you with the previous generation. They were the players that were with you with the previous version, and have them come forward and say, oh, you love this table? That's awesome. Buy it again.
    94:23
    Yeah, that's my problem with Pinball Arcade. I'd love to carry it around with me on my phone, but I was already annoyed enough that I bought Season 1 and 2 on Xbox One and then had to buy them again on Steam. And it's like, no, I'm not.
    94:39
    Maybe if the sale was cheap enough, I would. But at this point, it's just like I'm only buying them on the PC because that's where I've been getting them at the lowest cost, and I just needed to commit to some architecture.
    94:52
    Yeah, if it was a situation where if you bought the tables on PC, you could have them on Xbox and your phone or whatever, that would be nice. But I can understand the programming issues making you have to keep it to just one or the other. but at the same time it's something where it stops me from enjoying stuff as much. I mean, I have Pinball Arcade on the computer and I play it on the computer fairly often and I can see there are occasionally times where I wouldn't mind having it on my phone or on a console or something like that but I'm just not willing to buy stuff everywhere. And the same thing with the pinball effects games. I'm not willing to just keep buying the same thing over and over and over again.
    95:45
    Yep. Okay. The last news item I had that I wanted to talk about in terms of video game news was IO Interactive.
    95:55
    They've become independent of Square Enix. While I had not caught it at the time, apparently back in May, Square had indicated that it was going to part ways with IO. but what's happened is IO has, it's staying around, it's secured its independence, and notably, they get to keep the Hitman IP. Well, that's the only reason they'll survive the separation. Yes. So IO said that they're looking for new collaborators and partners now that they've secured their independence, but that they're going on, and I believe all rights and ownership and everything of Hitman has transferred completely over to them, So the last Hitman game they released, which is called Hitman, was done in a seasonal structure. I think right after this announcement came out, they made the very first episode of that free for people. So you could download it and play it for free. I got that game for my birthday. I really like the Hitman IP. It definitely is IO's most famous, strongest, and profitable IP.
    96:58
    And that game was good. but I don't know all the details why Square wanted to back away from doing anything with IO. I mean, their other IPs aren't particularly – I can't even – Kanan Lynch, I think, might have been theirs.
    97:11
    But Hitman's the big one. Yeah, the Kanan Lynch, they did Mini Ninjas, I think. Yeah, they did Mini Ninjas.
    97:23
    That was fun. Yeah, I liked Mini Ninjas. It was a lot of fun. I had that on 360. but pretty much they have been Hitman is my favorite stealth franchise so I'm really glad I know a lot of people were kind of on the fence about Absolution and it maybe being too action oriented but this new one with the episodes and the sandbox mode it's really good so I'm glad and I think they can be really successful and given that they got to keep Hitman, it put them in a great place. So they're not going to have to start from scratch. They're still going to earn money off of their Hitman IPs that are out there. Because that's, I mean, I'm assuming they're going to move forward with season two of that episodic structure. And so I think it's good. I'm glad. I don't know what the deal is with SE.
    98:18
    You know, I gave them full kudos for their acquisitions, like Eidos and such. I think it's really, for a Japanese video game developer that's embraced acquiring Western assets and diversifying their portfolio, I think it's been very impressive to see someone try that. But anyway, I don't know the details why they didn't want to do stuff with IO anymore, but I'm glad IO figured out a way that they could stay in the game. Okay, let's talk some games that we've been playing.
    98:48
    Do you have one you want to start with? I've been playing, as I said earlier, primarily Shadow of Mordor in getting ready for Shadow of Mordor, or Wardor.
    99:02
    But it is... Wardor. I just try to play through it. It's just, this game is so much fun. The, just everything about the game, I mean, I'm a fan of Lord of the Rings. I'm not as the huge super fan like some people are. No names being mentioned right here, Dennis.
    99:23
    But I have really enjoyed it, and I'm enjoying playing through it more. And it's just a nice way to... I like the kind of open-worldy hack-and-slash tie-ins that it has, because sometimes I'm not wanting to get too deep, and I will just sit there and hunt down the various bosses and chiefs and cut them down and make new nemeses. Because the nemesis system is just such an amazing... I honestly, when that game originally came out and I first played it, I expected that by now we'd have seen a bunch more games with a nemesis system like it, and we haven't, and it's kind of a surprise to me. Maybe it's too hard for others to figure out how to code it. I don't know. Because it is just so interesting to see what happens when all of that stuff,
    100:25
    how it goes where you'll find a new boss, a new little chief guy, and it's a guy you thought you killed. And he's like specifically hunting you down now. And the model has changed. You can see where he's scarred up from where you hurt him, but he's still coming back, and you're still having to fight him again. I've had some where I was certain they were dead like three times, and they keep coming back.
    100:52
    Yeah, it's a fun game. Yeah. I mean, that's been my main gameplay lately, that and a few other things. I haven't started anything new, though, at all, even with the sales. Like I said, I haven't started anything new. I did start Tyranny. Tyranny is a really, really deep game. It's an obsidian game, and it uses the same engine as Pillars of Eternity did. So it is a really deep RPG.
    101:24
    It's like an old-school single-player RPG with deep story, lots of reading, and this and that. So I play it And I've been playing it some It's A mood game When I'm in the right mood for it So when I'm not too worn out from being at work all day Or this or that where I just want to be a bit more mindless It's the game I play And it's fun Because you're kind of the bad guy The world It's set in Has this great Emperor has been alive for hundreds and hundreds of years and has slowly taken over country after country after country and the game starts after the conquest of the final free country and there are two, I don't want to call them, they're kind of factions there are basically two armies the emperor has two primary armies that are both very different from each other and is the way of any Despot he plays them off of each other And there are other factions You are one of the other factions You are part of the You're kind of like a roaming Judge justice type guy Who You are like an arbiter And you go in and you do Things that support one faction or the Other or Have them both fighting To each other while fighting You know dissidents and this and that And it's interesting. I'm very, very, I'm only a couple hours into it so far. But I already liked the system from Pillars of Eternity. And I still like the system because it's got this fun, it's a live play. Like when you're in combat, everything continues live and you can play things. You just let it go and you choose where your guys go and who they're fighting and their abilities and stuff. But as the battles ramp up or things get more complicated, you can pause combat at any time. You hit the space bar and everything stops. And you can go through and queue up all your people's stuff and then unpause combat and let it continue on. So you're not getting that whole thing where it's like, well, I'm trying to control five guys and I'm getting overwhelmed because I'm controlling several different people in several different fights that I need to pay attention to. Okay, so Dragon Age games offer that mechanic. Do they? Yeah, where you can do pause and do the assignments. Yeah, and I enjoy it quite a lot. So I'm going to push more into that one as I have time. Time seems to be the biggest thing anymore. Indeed. Well, as I noted in the intro, a couple of games on Xbox One I've been playing in honor of seeing the footage from E3. Dishonored 2 is the one I'm currently going. I'm in Chapter 3, I believe, at this point. Self game. I'm playing as the girl Emily in this. You have the option to play as her or her dad, and you have to play as her dad in the first Dishonored game. They have different power sets, so I wanted to play with her powers, so that's why I did the choice. I had what I described as a visual discomfort with the first Dishonored. Ugly. I described it as an ugly game. I mean, it's supposed to be dirty. I don't know. I just didn't like the art style. This one doesn't bug me the same way that the first one did, where I thought it just looked off, like, just kind of gross, I don't know, not like Brink bad, which is, uh, got horrible art, but, uh, anyway, I'm playing on the default difficulty, uh, it does, in that mode, you do really want to stay in stealth, because you won't hold up well in hand-to-hand combat, by and large, uh, and I actually, I made myself on the second chapter play very, very cautiously, and I got through the whole thing without being detected, and without taking any lives. But I doubt I'll be keeping that up. A lot of the powers function a lot easier if you kill.
    105:35
    But killing... You mean you're not going to do a full pacifist run? No, on chapter one I killed a lot of people. I ended up... On chapter two I didn't because I noticed in all my saves it was saying high chaos, high chaos. And I know you don't get the good ending if the chaos level is high. So I thought, let me try and tone that down. But where I'm at at Chapter 3 right now, it's like, I think I just want to kill these people. So we'll see. But one of the unfortunate issues that I've been having is the game has crashed on me four times already. So I haven't been having that problem on the Xbox One games.
    106:17
    360, especially later in its life cycle, I did. But, yeah, I've had some where it just all of a sudden reloads the title screen or just flat-out crashes, and I don't know what the deal is, but it's very frustrating. It does auto-save a decent amount, and you can manually save any time, so it's not been like I'm losing critical progress, but it's just frustrating. It makes me, I don't know if I'll play, you know, I had to put XCOM 2 aside so I could start working on this, and I don't know if I'll win this before I set it aside. I got two more in-the-box games for the Xbox I still need to start, so we'll see. my overall assessment based off of how far I am in so far is it's a very confident stealth game but I still think Hitman's better if I had to pick I'd say get the episodic Hitman over Dishonored 2 but hey if you want to play with magical powers there's only one option yeah I looked at the when I remember when that game when they were showing the stuff last year it looked pretty cool uh with the various skills that you could get and, like, some of the, like, being able to tag things. So if you do something to one person and it happens to all of them, that looked pretty interesting. Yeah, and that's what I had to exploit to get through Chapter 2 without taking lives. So I could knock one person out and then knock another one out. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. That was nice. I spared them all. It was kind of neat. It's like, I'm so happy I'm going to steal everything so your bosses kill you for messing up. Yes, yes. unfortunately I was not able to spare lives in Wolfenstein the Old Blood which is what I played just before going into Dishonored 2 it serves as a prequel to Wolfenstein the New Order as I noted it starts sort of at Castle Wolfenstein so in a way it reminds me of a throwback to Wolfenstein 3D but it's more of an easter egg than anything because it's kind of like a reimagining the story is way weaker than the New Order was New Order actually has a pretty good story. This is minimal. It has some. It's got a handful of cut scenes, but it's really just about the gameplay. Gameplay is pretty much the same. I'd say probably fewer weapons. Again, it's a prequel. It's not as laden up with stuff.
    108:26
    There were stealth options in these games. This one, especially in the first section, felt like you really had to use stealth, like you didn't have much of a choice in the early levels. And you're breaking out of the prison in Castle of Wolfenstein, so it kind of fits. but game stays pretty normal through the first part, and then towards the end of the game, it starts to get crazy. In Wolfenstein, the new order, there's a lot of future tech, and this, it's more supernatural stuff starts happening in the last third of the game in particular.
    108:59
    But, I mean, my overall assessment of it is, if you like the new order on the gameplay level, go ahead and play this, even though this is chronologically in the storyline before Wolfenstein and the New Order, I'd play New Order first to figure out if you liked the game.
    109:18
    Because this is not going to hook you with its story like New Order does. So I'd actually start with New Order. And then if you need more while you're waiting for the next Wolfenstein game, go ahead and give this one a try. But that's my bullet summary on it. Just instead of it's there, it's not there, not to the same level as a full game. Is it straight DLC, or is it like a standalone? It's standalone. It's a standalone. But I think it was digital only. Yeah. You don't need to own a new order to buy it. Okay, so it's one of those where it's standalone, but it feels pretty much like DLC or a side story type thing. Yeah, same engine, all that sort of thing. Yeah, okay.
    110:00
    Now, you had mentioned Tyranny. I guess we're moving into our last video game segment, which I just kind of labeled as sale buys. So I already covered the games I bought that I hadn't played yet, and I'll go into the ones that I have put a little time on just to kind of give quick kind of bullet summaries on. But I don't know, did you get anything else that you haven't named yet?
    110:24
    Did I name Day of the Tentacle Remastered? No, I think you've only named Tyranny. I have Tyranny and Day of the Tentacle Remastered, which is, you know, the remake of the classic Day of the Tentacle that I played on, oh gosh, probably, I think it was on the NES.
    110:47
    I've heard of it, but I don't think I've played this. I mean, it was like the sequel to Maniac Mansion, and I played it so many years ago. But I've heard the remaster is a really well-done remaster, and it was just so cheap that I grabbed it. The sale is going on until the 5th. There's a couple other games I'm considering getting. I just haven't pulled the trigger on any of them yet, and even if I had, It's not like I've really got the playtime right now to get into a whole bunch of new games anyway, but I'm working on them. Yeah, and most of these I haven't been able to put a lot of time in on, hence why they're just kind of this hodgepodge segment. But I guess I'll carve it up by platform. So there are three Xbox sale games that I have put a little bit of time on. One was Aqua Kitty UDX. It's like a defensive shooter. It's okay. It's nothing special. The name is the coolest part about it.
    111:49
    Then I got Level 22, which is a pixelated stealth game. It's been pretty simple so far, but I've only gotten through the first two chapters, I guess. So it's fairly silly. It's got some corny humor and all that going on in it. And then the last one is a game called Polychromatic. It's a total Geometry Wars ripoff. It's not nearly as pretty. The soundtrack is not nearly as epic. It's not nearly as hard. but it is a competent twin-stick shooter. So it's all right. If you need something else, it's okay.
    112:19
    Then on Steam, I got a whole bunch that I've at least done a little bit in. One is I got Season 4 of the Pinball Arcade, which is exactly what you'd expect it to be.
    112:29
    Then my one big purchase was the most expensive Steam sale purchase I did was Binding of Isaac Rebirth. I don't know. It was less than $10.
    112:39
    Binding of Isaac Rebirth is what it is. It's my big buy. And I bought it because one of the other podcasts I listen to, the Link Cable podcast, which we've had one of their co-hosts, Don, on back as a guest host last year. And I have a link to them in the show notes. I'm not linking to a specific episode because they talk about Binding of Isaac like on every episode. So just pick one. But it's probably the first roguelite I've put any significant time in. And it's surprisingly addictive. I keep, every day I've gone in and I'm like, I'll go ahead and play it. I haven't played it this morning again. I was just thinking, I have other stuff I haven't started. I was like, I'll slip in a game of Binding of Isaac. I can't say I love it, but, yeah, it is surprisingly addictive. So whatever they're doing, they're doing it right.
    113:25
    Yeah, and the second, oh, yeah, I've played Binding of Isaac and Rebirth. Binding of Isaac Rebirth is available, I think it's Rebirth, is available even on the Nintendo Switch now. so you could have on all the consoles I didn't know that it was but it was on sale on Steam so I was like okay quick let's see I got Bit Blaster XL which is like a single develop one man shop developer it's a shmup it's very basic but it's alright and then he has another game that was part of the pack I got called Orbit XL it's more of an orbit game where you're in orbit around the sun and you have to So it's like one-button mechanics. So you basically push yourself away back to the outer orbit while you're dodging objects getting sucked into the black hole sun. So it's actually – I actually like it more than the Bit Blaster game. It's very simple, but it is challenging. You know, most games last less than a minute. I got Audio Surf 2, which I had Audio – I've had Audio Surf, the first one, for years. Oh, yeah, me too. It's where you dodge blocks and collect other blocks while you're playing along to your MP3s. So, anyway, it's like a more refined version of it. I've only played one song on it so far. But, yeah, if you know the first one, you'll like this one. So, I was like, it's on sale. I'm going to get it. And I installed the first one.
    114:54
    Then I got the rest of them that I've been playing are a bunch of shmups. So, there's Don Maku Unlimited 2. This isn't on sale because of the Steam sale. It's actually on sale because the third one just came out, I believe. It's what I call a full-fledged Japanese shmup. It's brutal. It's fun. You earn upgrades so you can buy more continues and stuff. I actually just won the game in one of the modes this morning, because I didn't have enough continues originally. I had to buy enough. So if you like that vertical scrolling, a whole screen full of bullets, this is the game for you. So it's a very good shmup. Then I got Steam and Metal, which is a steampunk-themed shmup. gameplay, I'd say, is sort of reminiscent to 1942. It's more refined than that, but that's kind of what it feels like, except, of course, everything's steam-powered.
    115:44
    Phoenix Force, less of a smup, and it's more of a bullet-dodge boss rush. The firing's all automatic. It's really just about avoiding shots and one hit kills you. Lots and lots of short levels, but it got really hard really fast, so I've actually been liking it, and I've gone back to it a few times already. Then there's Hyper Space Invaders 2 pixel edition it's a trippy pixel style shmup i've only played it once basically so it's all i know is it's chaotic and i don't know what's going on so i don't really have an opinion on it yet and then the last one i i've got that i played is called space codex it was labeled uh as a shmup that is lame it's slow it's clunky it's the worst buy i've had so far that i've tried from the steam sale i can't recommend it it seems like it wants to be a twin stick shooter but it's not quite uh Like, I'm going around, you can use the keyboard to steer, but it feels slow. Like, I'm using the controller, and I'm using the controller to steer the ship, but I'm using my mouse to aim. Because the aiming on the controller feels slow, because it's designed for the mouse. But the steering feels clunky with the keyboard controls. So that's what I'm doing, is I'm playing with the mouse in my right hand and the controller in my left. And that's making it be the best I can get it. But it's just ugly. It's just not – it feels cheap, and I'm disappointed. But I probably paid $0.54, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much.
    117:13
    Yeah, that's a valid point. If you get a game that's not super amazing, but it costs you less than a single game of pinball, you should probably be okay with it. Yeah. All the shmups I bought on Steam were $0.99 or less. That was my rule. Which was the best shmup that you've got so far? Don Maku Unlimited 2 for 99 cents, I believe. Yeah, definitely. It's the most traditional. I mean, it just depends on your style. If you have a curtain screen or the common subgenre of that's called bullet hell, for those familiar.
    117:48
    It's like Mike, who was on our E3 episode, I think that's probably his favorite type of shmup is the bullet hell subgenre. I mean, you can carve them up by, are they vertical scrolling? Are they horizontal scrolling? My personal favorite type of shmup is the twin-stick shooter. That's the format I most like. Most of these are not that.
    118:09
    So I'm perfectly happy with horizontal or vertical scrolling. They're really, really hard, or they're relatively easy. You know, I just don't see a lot on console. I don't buy them retail disc. I don't do the imports from Japan. so for me this was just like an opportunity where PC becomes the viable option for me to get a lot of shmups on the cheap so I was just like I saw a bunch on the sale and I just started sorting them by after my experience with Space Codex I started making sure they had a lot of positive reviews if they had a little thumbs up symbol then I'd consider them if they were under a buck because we gotta have some law yeah but yeah Don Maku Unlimited 2 but as I noted in my intro I have 6 more that are all classified as shmups that I haven't even started But it'll be hard to beat Damaku It's definitely the one that seems Of all the ones I've played so far That has the best budget And you can tell Like it could be a stand-up arcade game In fact it's a conversion from once Hence why it's unlimited too And we have a third one Nice Okay Hey we got to the end of the show This was kind of long Yay It's over Now I can go take my shower oh no, you're that's right, I blame pinball those physical games, they're filthy it's coil dust, that's what's on it not shame definitely not, it's coil dust I'm covered in coil dust well, as a reminder to yes, as a reminder to our now coil dust covered listeners, if you'd like to reach out to us about pinball or video games or any other type of gaming, you can reach us at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast or by email, eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. We're available on Twitter and Instagram as eclectic underscore gamers. Yep. And we will be back in two more weeks where we will actually be discussing CantCon. It will have an actual tabletop. Yep. It's going to be very tabletop heavy. Obviously, if we have any notable video game or pinball news, we'll hit that as well. But expect a debrief on the Can't Con convention because that's where we're both going to be. Until next time, I'm going to say I'm Dennis. I'm Tony. And have a good week. And goodbye.