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Ep 87: Escape from TS4

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·59m 34s·analyzed·Jun 29, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.041

TL;DR

Jersey Jack Toy Story 4 announced at $12k; hosts debate premium pricing vs. value and designer Pat Lawlor's legacy.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss Jersey Jack Pinball's surprise Toy Story 4 announcement, which leaked 12 hours early through an unencrypted website URL. The hosts analyze the game's $12,000 price point (a $2,500 increase from Guns N' Roses), Pat Lawlor's apparent swan song design, licensing constraints from Disney/Pixar limiting code complexity, and the playfield quality concerns affecting JJP's premium positioning. Both hosts appreciate the theme's home appeal and accessibility for younger players but express concerns about value-for-money and question whether the game's appeal rests primarily on IP rather than mechanical innovation.

Key Claims

  • Toy Story 4 information was leaked 12 hours before official announcement after someone discovered it on JJP.com via direct URL guessing, not through distributor leak

    high confidence · Josh describing the leak mechanism: 'they put the information up on the website and someone had just typed in like JJP.com slash Toy Story 4'

  • Guns N' Roses sold approximately 2,000 units at $9,500, with roughly half being Limited/Collector's Edition models

    medium confidence · Josh noting collector vs. standard split and secondary market dynamics: 'you sold 2,000 games, and a thousand of them were your collector's editions'

  • Toy Story 4's simpler code is likely a direct result of Disney/Pixar licensing requirements, not design choice

    medium confidence · Josh speculating: 'if someone from JJP said, "Hey, the reason we did the code the way we did is because Disney specifically requested that it be more accessible to children"'

  • JJP deliberately avoided producing a Pro/Standard tier for Toy Story 4 to prevent cannibalization of Premium/CE sales

    medium confidence · Josh: 'I don't think they cut out the standard because they weren't aiming for that market anymore. They knew if they did a standard, a lot of people would gravitate towards that'

  • Pat Lawlor's Stern-era games (Monopoly, Roller Coaster Tycoon, NASCAR, Family Guy, Shrek, CSI) are not considered standouts in his legacy

    high confidence · Scott listing Lawlor's Stern output and Josh agreeing none are celebrated: 'I don't think I know anyone that ever talks about his Stern years and is like, "Oh, those games were just amazing"'

  • Toy Story 4 features a full-size iPad-like LCD screen significantly reducing playfield real estate

    high confidence · Josh: 'There's like a full-size iPad on the playfield' and concern about screen placement following similar criticisms of Shrek's large upper playfield screen

Notable Quotes

  • “Guys, girls, you gotta understand this is Disney and Pixar. They're a very hard licensor to appease...if someone from JJP said, 'Hey, the reason we did the code the way we did is because Disney specifically requested that it be more accessible to children, because it's a theme for children.'”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Explains design philosophy and licensing constraints; excuses simpler code by invoking Disney's brand control over child-appropriate content

  • “I feel like there's no other in between...The high-level players will boss it around...you're not going to see as much buy-in from the tournament players”

    Scott Larson @ N/A — Articulates concern that Toy Story's accessibility and simpler code limit appeal to competitive pinball community, positioning it as home/casual game only

  • “For what you get in the game, I feel like the only thing that passes on this is because it's Toy Story, because they got Tim Allen, because they got Annie Potts...I just don't think any other theme would have got a write-off.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Core critical claim: the game's perceived value derives entirely from IP/licensing, not mechanical or design innovation

  • “JJP is looking for the big, the flashy, the higher-end product with the high-end price tag...Stern is Ford. That's what Stern is. Stern is volume...JJP is obviously not selling as many games as Stern...they're taking more profit per game sold than Stern is.”

    Scott Larson @ N/A — Articulates business model differentiation between manufacturers; establishes JJP as premium boutique vs. Stern's volume production strategy

  • “Someone needs to fess up and say, 'Hey, like, it looks – there a lot of egg on your face when the guy that makes the playfields cuts his seminar 40 minutes short because he's getting hammered with questions about his playfields.'”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — References Marco (Marco Specialics playfield supplier) cutting short Texas Pinball Festival seminar due to criticism over playfield quality issues; signals broader manufacturing reliability concerns

  • “If you're going to be that company, the quality needs to match the product. I don't feel like you get a quality enough game...if you're going to have the high price tag, I want the highest quality that I can obtain.”

Entities

Jersey Jack PinballcompanyToy Story 4gamePat LawlorpersonJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonGuns N' Rosesgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: JJP positioned as premium 'boutique' manufacturer (analogous to Ferrari/McLaren/Apple) vs. Stern as volume producer ('Ford'); different business models with different profit margin strategies

    high · Scott: 'JJP is looking for the big, the flashy, the higher-end product...low numbers and the high price tag...Stern is Ford. That's what Stern is. Stern is volume...JJP...they're taking more profit per game sold than Stern is'

  • ?

    community_signal: Marco Specialties playfield supplier controversy: cut Texas Pinball Festival seminar 40 minutes short due to aggressive criticism over playfield quality/durability; signals broader manufacturing reliability concerns affecting industry confidence

    high · Josh: 'the guy that makes the playfields cuts his seminar 40 minutes short because he's getting hammered with questions about his playfields...And he's just like, "I'm done" and leaves'

  • ?

    community_signal: Joe Katz credited as rules designer; game accessible enough for young/vulnerable audiences (e.g., Josh's autistic 3-year-old using gameplay videos for sleep facilitation), suggesting deliberate accessibility-first design philosophy

    medium · Josh: 'My son Grayson, my three-year-old that has autism – he has a rough time falling asleep...We have been laying down watching the gameplay by Joe Katz, and it's what calms him down'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Toy Story 4 designed as non-tournament game with low-complexity code; unlikely to drive high-level competitive play, limiting appeal to tournament niche vs. home/casual market

    medium · Scott: 'The high-level players will boss it around...you're not going to see as much buy-in from the tournament players...this is a different market. This isn't the same thing. I don't think this is a tournament game'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.179

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 87. With me, my co-captain as always, Scott Larson.
0:14
And Scott, we've had some interesting news these last couple of weeks. We've had a new reveal, and we've had almost a new pinball machine fly under the radar. But before we get into all of that, it seems like our sponsor has some new pins to sell us. So if you want a new pin, where do you go, Scott? I go to Flippin' Out Pinball. I message Zach and Nicole many, and they've always been able to take care of me. I actually just pulled up their current inventory. And so, hey, they have Mandalorian Pro, Mandalorian Premium, Guns N' Roses LE. They have some Cactus Canyon Special Edition, Ultraman, Halloween, Godzilla Premium pre-owned, Monsters Pro, Rush Pro, Iron Maiden Premium. So the bottom line is if you want to get a game, availability is coming back, which is nice. And if you really want that Deadpool LE, they have it for $17,000. So, again, there's a lot of good options out there, but it seems like the availability is starting to come back. So that's a good thing. So contact Zach and Nicole Mini. Speaking of availability, there is a new game out for Jersey Jack Pinball. I don't think you've heard of it yet. Yeah, it totally flew under the radar. Nobody saw this coming at all. No one saw it coming at all. uh actually no one saw that it was going to be toy story 4 okay yeah we'll talk about that this game rolls out and it's it's kind of an interesting rollout um because it gets leaked like 12 hours previously yeah but yeah they kind of all do that i mean it's there's always that one distributor who wants to leak to one poster who wants to be first i mean And it's fine. I actually like if it's 12 hours early, I'd rather just wait and see the real thing because it's like a grainy Photoshop picture. Well, and the thing I heard, it wasn't actually a leak by any distributor or anything like that. It was like they put the information up on the website and someone had just typed in like JJP.com slash Toy Story 4 or whatever. And boom, there was the information. It wasn't like crypto locked or whatever. It was just there. It was basically just someone who just tried, I guess, cold calling and seeing if something was already up, like a hyperlink that wasn't posted.

Josh Roop @ N/A — Core complaint: premium pricing not justified by premium quality; flag for early adoption risk given playfield durability unknowns

  • “My son Grayson, my three-year-old that has autism – he has a rough time falling asleep at night. We have been laying down watching the gameplay by Joe Katz, and it's what calms him down...There is some entrancement to this game.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Personal testimony to game's accessibility and therapeutic value for younger/vulnerable audiences; validates design intent for family/home use

  • “It's a $2,500 increase from Guns N' Roses initial release...even with inflation, an increase of basically 25 percent or slightly more than 25 percent, that's a big jump.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Quantifies pricing escalation and positions it as aggressive even accounting for inflationary factors

  • “I would love to have a Toy Story. I'm not paying for it realistically at this point. I'd have to get rid of one of my Stern Premiums and one of my old Williams Valleys. I'd have to sell one and a half games to do it.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Demonstrates practical consumer friction: cost barrier high enough to require liquidating existing collection; signals secondary market entry point

  • “If you want your kids to play more pinball, get them this game...I guarantee when people come over, that's one of the first games they'll play.”

    Josh Roop @ N/A — Articulates primary use case: family/social entertainment rather than serious collector or tournament machine

    • Stern Pinball
    company
    Disney/Pixarcompany
    Marco Specialtiescompany
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Eric Meunierperson
    Joe Katzperson
    Tim Allenperson
    Annie Pottsperson
    Deadpoolgame
    The Beatlesgame
    Godzillagame
    Black Knightgame
    Dialed Ingame
    Shrekgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Straight Down the Middlemedia
    Flippin' Out Pinball Podcastmedia
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Game appeal perceived to rest primarily on Toy Story IP rather than mechanical innovation or design merit; hosts question whether different theme would sustain $12,000 price point

    high · Josh: 'I think the only thing that passes on this is because it's Toy Story...I just don't think any other theme would have got a write-off' and Scott's hypothetical theme-swap test

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pat Lawlor's apparent final design for JJP described as 'safe' and 'lackluster' rather than innovative; large LCD screen implementation parallels criticized Shrek design approach, raising concerns about creative constraints

    medium · Josh: 'It seems very safe...it feels like it was rearranged' and 'when he came out with Dialed In, I think people got reinvigorated for what Pat Lawlor could do...with this game, if this is his swan song...I just feel like it's lackluster'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Toy Story 4 leaked 12 hours early via unencrypted website URL discovery (JJP.com/Toy-Story-4); not traditional distributor leak but direct URL guessing vulnerability

    high · Josh: 'they put the information up on the website and someone had just typed in like JJP.com slash Toy Story 4...It wasn't crypto locked or whatever. It was just there'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Disney/Pixar licensing appears to have directly constrained Toy Story 4's code complexity and design freedom, likely requiring more accessible/child-appropriate rule set than typical JJP game

    medium · Josh: 'Disney and Pixar have a lot more say in what goes into their pinball machines...Disney specifically requested that it be more accessible to children, because it's a theme for children'

  • $

    market_signal: JJP appears to have deliberately eliminated Pro/standard tier to prevent cannibalization of Premium/CE sales, indicating pricing strategy prioritization over market breadth

    medium · Josh: 'I don't think they cut out the standard because they weren't aiming for that market anymore. They knew if they did a standard, a lot of people would gravitate towards that...And that's why I think JJP actively made the decision to not do a standard because they knew they'd be losing money'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pat Lawlor's return to JJP with Toy Story 4 after mixed Stern-era results suggests artist rehabilitation narrative; however, 'swan song' framing by hosts indicates perceived decline or era-ending for this designer at boutique level

    medium · Josh: 'when he came back to JJP and he came out with Dialed In, I think people got reinvigorated...with this game, if this is his swan song...I just feel like it's lackluster'

  • $

    market_signal: $12,000 price point represents 25%+ increase from Guns N' Roses ($9,500) and perceived as unjustified given simpler code and design; hosts question sustainable pricing model for JJP

    high · Josh: 'I feel like for what's on the playfield...I don't feel it commands the price that they're asking' and 'My level of interest in this game – I would love to own one...I just can't justify the money'

  • ?

    product_concern: Playfield durability and quality concerns from Marco Specialties manufacturing issues create early-adoption hesitation; Josh explicitly states will wait for second-hand copies from players with proven track records

    high · Josh: 'if I'm going to buy it, I'm going to buy it second-hand from someone that's already put some time on it, and I know that the playfield's not falling apart...That's already being number one to me'

    • 2:48
    Yes. Okay, that makes it a little different. But still, I mean, it's like, okay, all right. Guns N' Roses was their last release. It's wildly successful. They've sold. Yes. they um we talked to eric a long time ago and he said well i they said well how many to make and he said i don't know le 5000 and he's like actually they're when we talked to him at expo it seemed like they were going to meet that so that's that's actually very impressive so it was a great theme that had wide appeal and it had involvement from the band and so that that's a big deal and so now we are following up with a big release with peck with pixar so i guess what are your initial takes on this and tell me your interest level high low medium and why i remember my very first thought i saw the the the gentleman that's taking his daughter to the carnival to play toy story commercial and i remember watching all the way through it and getting to the end of it and like i feel like i know very little about this game because it wasn't very descriptive it It does show a lot, but it just wasn't great. But it's the same people that did the Guns N' Roses one, and the Guns N' Roses commercial was fantastic. Yeah, but the Guns N' Roses just had Welcome to the Jungle, and they had the good-looking person flipping it and just kind of rocking out to it. So it seemed more like a Guns N' Roses music video. Yeah, but they also kind of explained some stuff, too. I get that. But I think overall, I was super happy when Straight Down the Middle released their featurette.
    4:27
    Because I felt like the first minute and a half of that one explained some stuff a lot more. And then I was actually excited for this game. Yeah. I like the theme. I know a lot of people have got the pitchforks out that it's Toy Story 4. Honestly, you can put Toy Story 4 on it and then just run the It's the Woody and Buzz adventure. You don't have to go the route. So that's why when we had initially heard it was Toy Story 4 before, it kind of leaked to the public i was just not i was like i want to see i want to see how this goes and i still wasn't disappointed i mean i'm not a huge fan of forky i might not dislike him as much as travis murray on triple drain but uh i just overall i grew up with toy story i think we all have said that and i was excited even if it was just toy story 4 because i felt like even after watching the featurette and they're saying you've got the buzz pass path and the woody path for the wizard mode i was like well i could i could deal with this that'd be cool my level of interest in this game i would love to own one i just feel like for what's on the play field which we'll get to later for what the game is and what the play field is i don't feel it commands the price that they're asking that is my overall for me i would love to own a story i think my kids would just love it uh the code seems very simple which to be entirely honest i know a lot of people are saying like got their pitchforks out about this as well guys girls you gotta understand this is disney and pixar they're how do i put this nicely i don't want to get you in trouble they're a very hard licensor to appease and they have very it's also that what is the audience i mean didn't people complain about turtles because turtles was hey it's a kid game and it is brutal and so it's like well okay do you want toy story to also be brutal i mean this is but not only that but disney and pixar has a lot more say in what goes into their pinball machines and it wouldn't have shocked me if someone from jjp said hey the reason we did the code the way we did is because disney specifically requested that it be more accessible to children because it's a theme for children so i just know that they can be they can be hard to appease when it comes to their stuff they're particular and this is actually the the strength and the weakness of things like star wars um things like marvel things like disney is they are very jealous about how their style guide is, how things are presented. And in fairness, they do it because there is a level of expectation on the consumer that it's going to look a certain way. It's going to have a certain quality. It's going to have a certain thematic integration. And so I understand why they would have some very strong feelings.
    7:28
    I mean, the elephant in the room is the, it's $12,000. Yeah. It's a 2,500 increase from Guns N' Roses initial release. Wow. 9,500. And so, and that's a- Granted, that came out right before COVID. It did, but still, okay. I'm still saying that even with inflation, an increase of basically 25 percent or slightly more than 25 percent, that's a big jump.
    8:06
    Yep. So, now, okay, now I want to rewind a little bit and let's have people ring in on why they were complaining about Beatles being so expensive because the license was so expensive. Okay, well, sure, but compare the Beatles to something like this and you're going to get some very similar vibes, some similar themes of how complex it's going to be. and a premium license. I would say Toy Story is a premium license. I was very disappointed when I found out it was Toy Story 4.
    8:45
    However, I just don't feel that – Toy Story 4 doesn't feel like a fun movie to me. It feels like the death of a relationship. It feels like eventually Buzz and Woody. you know it's almost like a divorce movie a breakup movie right buzz and woody go their separate ways at the end sorry spoiler work um three years old if you haven't seen it um yeah so they they kind of go there so it doesn't seem to have that uh that feel and the magic that toy story one and two did where at the end you're toys and you're playing with andy which is you know that makes you feel like hey this is this is fun this is what's what it's all about uh toy story 3 had tons of adult issues too that i'm like yeah it just didn't fit for me now that being said um i was talking about this and talking about this with someone who has a lot of knowledge about licenses and they said well okay so yes it's toy story 4 it's not it's not Toy Story 1 or 2. However,
    9:58
    would you rather have this or no Toy Story? And I was like, actually, that's a very valid point. It is a valid point to say that if you want to do a Pixar movie and your option is to take what the licensor is interested in making, or if you are going to say, well, no, I want to hold out and do the other one. And I, it's, it sounds like that Stern had the option with Jurassic Park to either go with the new one or go with the old one. And I, I think wisely decided to go with the old one.
    10:37
    But they may not have had this option with Toy Story. And it could have been, again, this is all speculation, by the way, that I think Disney just said, this is, this is the theme. If you wanted Toy Story, this is what we're offering. uh so okay good um well look at it from disney's perspective in my opinion like i get i get that toy story one and two are the better stories it's they're 20 years old the animation looks old 25 years old yeah yeah original toy story came out in 95 and this one came out in 2019 yeah so if you're going to put your best foot forward you're going to want to go with the best CGI, which would be Toy Story 4. Unless you're willing to retrofit all that stuff or get crushed because you're not going to use all of the... You're going to use stock art or something like that. You're not going to use the animations. This has the integration, right? Yeah.
    11:42
    From a vibe standpoint, what this reminded me of is if anybody's gone to Disney California Adventure or and they have it also at uh in uh Florida uh one of the parks they have a shooting gallery with uh it's a Toy Story shooting gallery it's like Woody's Shootout or something like that where you have like a little ball and a cannon and you're shooting and it has Toy Story elements Toy Story themes and you're shooting balls at things and and it's yeah it feels fun it's still integrated into the toy story universe uh it has nothing to do with what the the toy story um like story is about but it was it was a lot of fun i'm that's actually my favorite thing to ride in disney world so yeah i i like that so it is the bottom line is is this a trade-off thematically that i'm willing to make yes yes it is and i think they integrated very well what assets they had and i think the other thing too is it's hard to compare disney licenses to other licenses like really if you're going to compare the license you should compare it to other disney licenses and and maybe even not like deadpool because deadpool was more the comic and marvel gets more free reign on that versus the Avengers movie, like the Gomez Avengers, Disney has more say on that one. Yeah. However, you could legitimately point out that Eric was able to integrate five Pirates movies. And I know Disney is different than Pixar, and I know there's a billion different channels that could have gone down. But it is... But what's one of the biggest complaints about Pirates? That it's too involved. It's too involved. No, there's no Pirates in any of the clips. Well, exactly. That's because the name and likeness, that makes it really challenging. Yeah. You get to see them at the very beginning when you choose one of them and you get to see them in the artwork. You see a picture and that's it, yeah. So it's different. But again, they're dealing within the constraints of what the licensor is offering. And so it seems like I'm willing to just admit, OK, I'm willing to let the give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to what decisions they had to made make based on the license. The problem is the expectations. Yeah, the expectations. Yeah, it's what you expect. And it's like when you have the sequel to one of your favorite movies and it comes out. And this is where, like, Last Jedi totally nosedived for me because it didn't feel right to me. It felt like this let me down on everything I've come to expect out of a Star Wars movie. So I think that people can say well okay like this isn what I expected I like you know granted it not what you expected Is it still acceptable But I think the other thing too is pinball machines can overcome some of those hurdles with layout and design and whatnot. And honestly, everything I'm hearing, it's a great shooter. It's just we're not seeing any pizzazz on the play field or anything unique and new. When I first saw this, I felt like it was rearranged. There's something new. There's like a full-size iPad on the play field. okay do you really count that as new there's been there's been countless just because the size doesn't mean yeah it makes it newer actually i will say um i find it interesting that it's in there however man that is a lot of real estate to give up for uh for something like that um i wonder how much of it was restraint on what they could do versus again sure sure and yeah what their creative license was yeah let's look at what dialed in was i mean it's still a really great game like i think that's the problem too like pat lawler did great for williams and bally back in the day right like arguably adam's family and twilight zone are two of the most influential games they might not be your favorite games but they are pretty dang influential on where pinball pivoted and went and uh it seemed like his games they were still good i know that like they're towards the end no good gophers and red and ted is kind of an acquired taste but i don't think i know anyone that ever talks about his stern years and i'm like oh those games were just amazing i i don't like his there's you know i had shrek for a while I could never get into it.
    16:44
    Yeah. And I'm so, okay, here's the stern years. Okay. Monopoly. Anybody rollercoaster tycoon Ripley's believe it or not. Grand Prix, NASCAR, family guy. Good morning, America.
    17:01
    That sounds like it's a one-off. Yeah, I think that's, that's gotta be a one-off. I've never heard of that before.
    17:09
    Shrek. csi and that's it okay and the one that stands out to me on that is ripley's and i actually do enjoy ripley's it's yeah it's a but it's more of the code than it is than the game itself yeah and i i wanted shrek to be a great game i love the theme of shrek and oh yeah i it just the the layout just felt so boring to me and yeah that's pretty stiff when i see the um when i see that they have like a big ipad in there again that's kind of what i felt it was like oh man i'm hoping this doesn't feel like shrek where now shrek had like the upper like one-fourth of the playfield it seemed like was covered by that and yeah it was a cool gimmick but i just uh it just never felt like oh this is a lot of fun like it's like oh okay so get up there and play donkey pinball you know whatever um so i i was concerned about having the giant uh screen in there but i don't know are you are you worried about it all like that giant screen it seems like a little more off off and up and so it doesn't seem to be it's an orbit and it's far back enough you don't have to really worry about it by the time you see it coming out i don't think it's gonna to kill your reflexes or whatnot so it didn't it doesn't bother me but my point being is like when he came back to jjp and he he came out with dialed in i think people got reinvigorated for what pat lawler could do sure and and with this game if this is his swan song which is what it sounds like it is i just feel like it's it's lackluster i i just i don't know like maybe it is time for the new blood to take over because look at look at pirates and look at it seems like it seems very safe that's what this okay you say yes safe but i i feel like with eric's games you're getting more bang for your buck and i i don't see the bang for your buck with this game and i feel like the numbers like you can tout every day all day that you sold 30 million of these but overall you sold 2 000 games and a thousand of them were your collector's editions and those aren't all going directly out to people i can almost guarantee there's a handful of those if not more there people are going to set on and then see if they can sell them for more because that's what the limited collectors market has become is they buy it extras these get bought up and then they get sat on so that way when when the demand's high they start pumping pumping them out for a premium so i start discounting those numbers because those will always sell because there's going to be someone that either a truly wants it or b wants to flip it okay i feel like there's no other in between so you look at your le numbers which is a thousand and me personally i no c number they only sold what they they sold a thousand ces and then roughly a thousand ellies is if i remember the numbers correctly and so my that's my other decision too i don't think they they cut out the standard because they weren't aiming for that market anymore they knew if they did a standard a lot of people would gravitate towards that and because well look at this game okay but a standard with Guns N' Roses, people didn't gravitate toward it. Because you're missing a full upper play field. It's like Black Knight. You know what I'm saying? What would you cut out in this?
    20:57
    Would you cut out the LCD screen? That's the problem. I don't think you can cut anything out of this. Cut out a pop bumper? You can't cut out the jump ramp. That's the main feature. You cut out Gabby Gabby? Like, that's my point is they feel like you're paying higher than an LE price. Sorry, you're paying a higher than a collector's price for a pro game or a standard game. And that's why I think JJP actively made the decision to not do a standard because they needed they knew that they'd be losing money because people would feel very comfortable going with a standard. And it's just like it's just like Guardians of the Galaxy. It's just like Ninja Turtles. people felt comfortable going with the base model right because they didn't see the value in the higher models and that's what i feel like with this and i could be entirely wrong i could be entirely wrong on that whole scenario yeah but that's how i feel about this i think that you're these go these are going into homes like i think the the majority like these are twelve thousand dollar games so these this is a game where people are going to turn it on and they'll play it and I would say the amount of play these games are going to have are going to be significantly less than what any location game will be. Because no one's going to put these on location for $12,000. You're never going to make that money back.
    22:18
    I agree. So the investor in me, there's a red flag that does not want to touch this game. Because I feel like we're going to have a Hobbit effect. People pay the premium up front. And then a couple years later, they were worth six grand at most. Yeah, but now they're back up.
    22:38
    Because of COVID, we're starting to see a softer market. But okay, remember, people didn't like Deadpool. And then they didn't have him. And then people really loved Deadpool. And Black Knight, they kind of went cold on. So I will say the theme on this will make it something that people will always buy and put in their game room. So I guess my question to you is then, would this game pass if it was a different theme? Okay, define different theme.
    23:17
    Let's switch Godzilla and Toy Story. Let's say somehow Keith Owen made Godzilla style for Toy Story and Pat Lawler made Toy Story for Godzilla.
    23:31
    I know it's hard. It's easy to make the comparison. But do you think someone would pay $12,000 for a Godzilla themed Toy Story with a jump wrap, a pop up? Let's say the Gabby Gabby's Godzilla. You hit him in the face.
    23:46
    And, you know, actually, I think so. Keith Elwin games we know are going to play great. And really, Pat Lawler has two great shooting games, with the exception of the SIM card on Dialed In that's super hard. But it's a good flowing game.
    24:05
    I'm not saying they're terrible shooters. I'm just saying, for what you get in the game, I feel like the only thing that passes on this is because it's Toy Story, because they got Tim Allen, because they got Annie Potts. I just I I don't think any other theme would have got a write-off I mean it it pretty much has the Beatles effect you talked about that in the beginning like Beatles people didn't see the bang for the buck in Beatles it's it's a fun game don't get me wrong that's what I hate about this that's what I absolutely hate about this I'm not saying it's a terrible game I've never said that about Beatles I've never said that about Toy Story I just don't feel like you feel it's overpriced for what you get.
    24:47
    Correct. You don't get the bang for your buck. Sadly, I think it's what the market is demanding. So we may see this. Right now I don't go. Well, I don't know. They still sold 2,000 games. True. And that's with the initial release. That's still a solid hit.
    25:06
    Your biggest numbers are going to be at the beginning. Yeah, of course they are. The trickle effect is it all depends on the game itself. like a Deadpool. It had a terrible start out the gate and then once it got in people's homes, like you said, once they get in people's homes, people start playing them there's still a really high demand for Deadpool.
    25:30
    There's still going to be a high demand, but this is a different market. This isn't the same thing. I don't think this is a tournament game. The high level players will boss it around. And so you're going to see some, you're not going to see as much buy-in from the tournament players, which is why I think you're feeling like, oh, I got to the wizard mode on the fourth game or stuff like that. Okay, fine. But really tournament players are such a small niche part of pinball. They really are.
    26:05
    Yeah, but I think here's the thing. Stern could do what they want to do because they're a manufacturer first.
    26:14
    And so they are trying to produce as much pinball as possible. And I think that we all need to admit, and I could be wrong, I mean, this is offensive,
    26:27
    JJP is a boutique pinball company. Yeah, of course they are. And I think the problem is we've all had this perception that they want to compete with Stern, Okay, but boutique has the connotation of a mom-and-pop shop, which I wouldn't say that. I would say that – okay, so here's a question. Is Ferrari a boutique car manufacturer?
    26:54
    How about McLaren? Bugatti? These are premium products for a smaller audience. so i i wouldn't say that they're i'm not saying that negatively yes they are not competing on the same level as stern but i don't think that's what they're shooting for at this point and i think we're all seeing that now i think i think the problem is there's been a big camp of stern versus jjp fanboys i don't think there's ever been like stern and jjp are like we're mortal enemies But I think it comes down to people need to realize like JJP is looking for the big, the flashy, the higher end product with the high end price tag. They're looking for the low numbers and the high price tag, which there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of how business works. That's one of the business models. Yeah, you can still make money that way.
    27:54
    Yeah, and obviously they have 30. Stern is Ford. That's what Stern is. Stern is volume. And yes, they make excellent games, but yes, they're making their money on volume.
    28:07
    JJP is obviously not selling as many games as Stern, and therefore they are a little bit more like, this is not the best analogy, but like an Apple where they're taking more profit per game sold than Stern is. because they have to for their business model because they're not going to sell 15,000 to 30,000 games a year.
    28:35
    So here is my complaint then. So we've established that they're the higher end, like they're going to be the limited numbers, they're more of a boutique. They're the more expensive. They are certainly the more expensive, yes. You said the Bugatti or the... Sure, but however, I've hopped in my friends. I have a few friends who have sports cars, and I hop in them, and I also feel this isn't for me. I'm not a sports car guy because it doesn't – like it feels a little uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like – but, man, it goes fast. And so that's what I'm just saying with this is that this is a different thing than what Stern is going for. Stern is going for volume sales and tournament play. That's what they are going for. but my point is if you're going to be that company the quality needs to match the product i don't feel like you get a quality enough game and we've got to figure like i haven't heard play field stuff yet which is fantastic and maybe i haven't been digging but we really need to address this issue like someone needs to fess up and say hey like it looks there a lot of egg on your face when the guy that makes the play fields cuts his seminar 40 minutes short because he getting hammered with questions about his play fields And he's just like, I'm done and leaves. And even even Jersey Jack took some of that during the Texas Pinball Festival as well. But it wasn't much. He addressed the issue and they kind of skirt skirted it under the rug. Well, so it's like, but the audience was much. the audience had the pitchforks out for the other one so I totally get that Mariko's like I'm out of here yeah and I get that CERN has their issues too but I'd rather replace a coil stop on a pinball machine than a play field you know what I'm saying and so that's like ding number one for me that's why even before Toy Story came out like people are like are you in or out on it and I said I have to see it first and honestly if I'm going to buy it I'm going to buy it second hand from someone that's already put some time on it and I know that the playfield's not falling apart.
    30:46
    And so that's already being number one to me. Like if you're going to have the quality, then you need, if you're going to have the high price tag, I want the highest quality that I can obtain. And maybe we don't have that. Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse because Toy Story's playfields are amazing and we're not having any issues. But we won't know for a couple more months, in my opinion, until people really put some time on this. I'm also typically not an early adopter but there are plenty of people who are willing to if they're willing to pay $15,000 for a collector's edition then they certainly care less and I bet they play it less too I guess overall I would love to have a Toy Story, I'm not paying for it realistically at this point I'd have to get rid of one of my Stern Premiums and one of my old Williams Valleys I'd have to sell one and a half games to do it.
    31:41
    You know what? I may get one in the future, though. I actually may, because I think it still would be a good game for a home collection. I think it'll be a lot of fun. I guarantee when people come over, that's one of the first games they'll play.
    31:58
    Oh, I agree. It still looks great. The presentation is good. The hot rails look good. The lighting show looks good. It looks like a game that was developed for a Disney park.
    32:13
    Oh, and I guarantee your kids that would play it would start to get more into pinball because it's more accessible. And so they're going to feel better about themselves because they're destroying this game. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I would say get it. I'd say get it and have your kids. If you want your kids to play more pinball, get them this game. That's what I agree. I, my son Grayson My three year old that has autism He has a rough time falling asleep at night We have been laying down watching the gameplay by Joe Katz And it's what calms him down It's what he wants to watch I mean, there is some entrancement to this game I just, I That's, I think that's what a lot of us Are upset with It's like, I don't I was on the fence about this game. I would like to own it, but I just can't justify the money for what it is. Okay, well, there's different ways of owning it. You can be a new owner. You can be a used owner. And eventually the market will correct where if you buy a used game, you will typically get a few hundred dollars off.
    33:24
    And so I would say that where my interest level in this game is probably in the used market. a used home use only by someone who, you know, kind of a low play, someone who maintained it. But down the road, would I get one? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. And the play looks fun. Play looks fun.
    33:45
    No. And that's what I'm saying. Like, it looks like a good game. I just can't justify the money for the product. Sure. I think that's how we all feel. Well, 2,000 people said, bring it on. You know, I have friends who are on the every le club so it obviously is not an issue for them yeah so we'll see what happens with this okay i i'm looking forward to laying my hands on it though i agree i will definitely be at expo in october and i'm excited to play it if that's the first time i play it so be it but like i want to play this game um like i said if i were to give this a grade it i think uh i i probably give it the b minus i give it the sd tm okay uh i i'm gonna give it an a i really i do like maybe an a minus because it's not the theme per uh exactly that i want however it is a good integration of the theme that's available and it will be fun to play and it will be fun to have in a home environment and pat uh if you like pat games this will be a solid pat game yep honestly like i said i think i think every collection needs to have the ultra hard game that has the depth and there needs to be a fun game that makes you feel good about yourself i think this is it the price looks price is higher than what we would like. However, that's a reflection of the times. So again, good. Good for me. A minus.
    35:24
    So my question is, if they did come out with a standard, would you have bought it? What would GNR's standard come out? Was it 9?
    35:33
    9,500? And I think they bumped it to 10,500. No, the LE was 9,500 and it went up to 10,500. The standard was a few thousand cheaper. but I, since I never got to play the standard, I don't know how the, the vibe felt different. My point being is if they had a standard for the toy story and there wasn't much difference, would you go with the toy story for 9,000, eight, five? Uh, probably. Yeah. Probably if it were in the, in the 9,000 range, I would be interested. Um, but 12,000 is more than I'm willing to pay right now. Yeah. That that's more than any game. And so I'm looking at all my games and saying this would have to be justified the price that is more expensive than all my games. The one thing I do want to point out one thing, though, it made me laugh. I showed my wife because I'm like, you've got to see Toy Story. And the second Woody comes on, she's like, that's not Tom Hanks.
    36:32
    I was like, wait, what? And she's like, that's not Tom Hanks. I'm like, it is a Hanks, though. I'm like, it's Jim Hanks, Tom's brother. and she's like, I can hear it, but there's just a little offness to it. It made me chuckle. But honestly, I'm a big Tim Allen fan, and so I thought it was really cool that he did the voice for Buzz in the game. And it's really cool that Annie Potts also reprised Bo Peep.
    36:59
    Usually on those things, I figure if they're good enough. So, no, it's okay. Yeah. You know, Johnny Depp didn't do the Stern call-outs either.
    37:12
    Honestly, those are fantastic. It's hard to tell the difference. Again, yeah. I think it's good enough.
    37:20
    Let's talk about a game that has been unveiled, but it's not getting very much coverage. And I don't know if it's because there's not a bunch of information about it or what's going on. But Scott, have you seen Escape from the Megaverse by Stern, a pinball machine by the leading manufacturer in the world? And we're getting no coverage on this guy.
    37:44
    Yeah, this. OK, so you and I found out about this the same time where someone sent us some pictures of it.
    37:52
    And Naomi said, yeah, yeah, good job. Thank you. And I looked at it. And the funny thing is I immediately looked at it and I said, okay, it's definitely Stern. Before I looked at anything, just because of the back glass and the speaker panel and the animation setup.
    38:08
    And I thought, okay, well, this is interesting. And it definitely looks like it's off their pin collection. So think Heavy Metal, think Spider-Man Home Edition, think Star Wars Home Edition. Star Wars, yeah.
    38:25
    JP. The home pit? Yeah. Well, no, I'm talking layout. Layout. It's completely different than Jack's version of Jurassic Park.
    38:39
    And so, yeah, it feels like a very safe design. The art is certainly interesting. It is very professional. I have no idea what these Bored Ape Yacht Club thing is, though. So do you know what an NFT is? a non fungible token. Is that right? Essentially. It's just that. Yeah. Essentially that you get the title to internet stuff. So, yeah, I, which I'm not smart enough to figure that out. It's the same thing as I'm not smart enough to figure out crypto because I look at it and I think I don't understand why people would want this other than to send money to scammers. Um, so I've never quite figured out, but obviously there is a market for this. Um, And so, yeah, it looks interesting, but this reminds me of another private label thing that I don't get. I was able to do a little bit digging.
    39:40
    And so Naomi had her son. He actually flew out to Ape Fest, which was up in New York. It's part of the Bored Ape Yacht Club. If you don't know what that is, it's essentially a bunch of investors with really deep pockets have invested heavily into crypto slash NFTs, and they've made a club out of it. And that's what this is called. And each one of those investors have become some type of monkey.
    40:06
    One's like a lab monkey. One looks like slime. If you really want to do the deep dive into it, go for it. But the point of this is I was thrown for a loop when we first saw this because it has the full-size LCD screen in it, and it also has Insider Connected, both of which has never been on a home pin before. So that's what threw me for a loop on the first thing.
    40:36
    So we asked Naomi's son to ask some questions. The gentleman that owns it, his name is Andrew. we asked about the artwork and he said uh some some guy made it like the guy was really coy sure so he said we were like so you mentioned in a post that eight of these have already been made how many more do you plan on making and he said eight either means there's eight machines being made or have been made or eight means there's eight apes on the play field i was like oh my goodness we're getting this aren't we um they said they did partner with stern to to build it uh and they're not sure how many they're going to make uh or if it's going to be available to the public if if you're listening to this this is what my thought was this is supreme 2.0 yeah if you can get your hands on one of these if you can i say go for it you can make money off this boy bad boy my thing is is oh i i talked to neil shelton you know neil shelton mr pin quest himself he's way into this stuff into nfts and crypto awesome dude he answered some questions that i had as well so the board ape yacht club if you get into the club i don't know exactly how that works if you pay your way in if you if you go college style and you have initiatory week or whatever it is uh you get perks and they talked about one of the perks is you get a pinball machine if you join the club and this is part of that you don't they don't know if you have to buy it or if it's just a gift yada yada uh that's what nil had said about this pinball machine itself um it's it's just it's weird to me that we we have an unveil randomly in new york uh it looks fun there's we got some footage sent to us i don't know if we're allowed to share it uh it looks like a fun game though um i don't know what are your thoughts like it just isn't for you or and it is the same layout as star wars and spider-man like if you nap arcade did a write-up you can see some photos there it is like the exact same layout you've got the three drops on the left in front of the ramp you've got the ramp on the right they have both come right straight back to the flippers there's an orbit uh there's a couple pops i guarantee they're all linked to the same coil um it just and the artwork's very unique it's not for me but for many i look at him like this is probably a fun game for the you know the 6 000 price range uh the home version pen um i would get a star wars home pin for that but um yeah it it looks beautiful i don't take much uh there are people who like having something that other people don't have yeah um i drive a ford f-150 which is like the number one selling truck uh yeah there are probably 10 million of them in utah alone and so i don't really care about driving something different than other what than other people um i don't care about having a game that is uh that is cosmetically just different but it has a very similar layout to other things um but is it a cool game yeah i think it's really cool it has a it has an le um it has an le speaker panel and it you know it looks like an le because it's powder coated it has art rails and I bet this would be a blast but for the premium of having something just because someone else doesn't have it I'm not going to pay that premium I really wonder how this all worked out like if if someone just approached Zach Sharp or like George Gomez is like this is what we want to do I like oh okay maybe and then like here how much money you work i think it the same as primus it like hey we want to make some games and they're like okay well we have some layouts do you want to select one of them i am really i that's exactly but this is what you should be doing this is what artists do all the time they do private parties for the uber rich like they'll fly to a yacht somewhere and they will do a show for a five million dollar like appearance fee so i i have no idea how much this game would even sell for how much they're making but obviously remember how we were talking about jjp that yeah they are making a significant amount per game because they're not going for the volume sale okay so let's just say if you are making 5 000 godzillas and you're making a you know a couple thousand per godzilla okay you're making 5 000 of those what would it take you to make 10 of something else it's going to take a it's going to take a lot of money you're looking at at least clearing that this is for me to say this this is worth it you probably want to clear 10 to 15 000 per game for a very unique layout like this yeah and so this is definitely a custom thing that's why i'm like do you the typical home pin usually does about 200 run like they don't make a ton of them no they don't that's what promise it's a good it's a good game for a good market um really i i've said if if you want a a slightly more budget-friendly option um either going with jurassic park the home pin or star wars the home pin those are two great games and they're they have big bang for the buck so this is what i this is what i propose yeah because obviously if you got money you can go do this everyone out there listening right now you know you want a pinball podcast pinball machine we will get teal list we'll get nate shivers we will get martin robbins or inc and it'll be all your favorite episodes and one pinball machine we're going to crowdfund this and we're only going to have 200 of these bad boys and you know you're going to want one we're going to do it through stern we're going to do the pin series it's going to be amazing that's that's my pitch all right good luck you know though we're gonna take messages after this episode and they're gonna be like sign me up yeah i uh i would take a a home pin version like a la supreme with a loser kid um hat on it like with a loser kid logo on it i would do that but yeah i'm not gonna i'm not gonna pay stern fifty thousand dollars to do it so here's my other suggestion to to the people that are throwing a fit about like their theme not being made and they want this uber cult theme that they're just dying for from like the late 80s or whatever go to stern have them make you 200 whatever the theme is uh you get the licensing and all that jazz and then you can sell them yourself and you have your own care bears theme and 199 other people will join you in on your effort i don't know if stern would do that but i mean it's a business it's a business these private these private label games they there is a market for them and they made heavy metal right yeah i i want to know more if someone knows more about this reach out to us because i want to know a little bit more about it because right now it just seems there's more questions than answers yeah there's a lot more questions um is this something we're gonna see at at expo i just that would be cool i would love to see this expo are you is anyone ever going to be able to play this outside of the board ape yacht club i invited the guy that had the game made to come on the podcast and i haven't heard a word so yeah i guess i'm under his probably too busy counting his counting as nfts so you know what so all right let's move on to the the last thing that i want to talk about before we wrap this up uh i want to say thank you to everyone and the response that we've had for flipping the script on autism it has been 10 times more than i ever expected the people that have reached out to talk about their own personal stories of of autism and the struggle, whatever it may be.
    49:35
    It just, we had multiple, like Haggis actually released the episode, messaged us, what can we do to help? They're shipping stuff in from Australia just so we'll have it for the auction slash stream.
    49:54
    It's overwhelming. We've had so many people reach out just to say, hey, what can we do to help? And I don't know yet. And we're still at the early phases of exactly what this is going to be at Expo. We know it's going to be streamed. We know we're going to do auctioning. We know we've got guests lined up. And I swear, everyone, every manufacturer that I know of is involved.
    50:19
    Except for, I do apologize, there's a couple I haven't reached out to yet, and I need to. But holy crap. just everybody's been supportive which is uh which is great um there are so many people out there who we didn't even realize had are dealing on some level with an autistic family member whether that's uh whether that's immediate whether or not it's extended family and it's been amazing to for me to see just people saying you know it's kind of giving a voice to people who typically are silent and it's very underserved. So this, this feels, it feels like a great way of interconnecting with people and, and bringing the community together. And it seems, it seems awesome that we've had so much positive response. So thank you. My recommendation is if you don't fully understand what autism is, there is a series on Netflix right now called love on the spectrum. watch an episode or two it will give you kind of idea uh people with autism and the struggle that they have daily uh even with something like love and so i it is a huge benefit to these kids to have one-on-one learning with these teachers and to get the life skills that they need and it has been proven time and time again, if they have the help at an early age, that they will be far more successful in the rest of their lives if they get that early intervention that they need. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Like I said, all 100% of the proceeds are going to go to Learning Solutions. We actually have a representative from Learning Solutions that's going to come with us to Chicago. So that way you can give the money to them directly. we're going to uh put their venmo or paypal wherever it is up on the stream so you just send the money directly to them i i'm just essentially the person putting this together it is all going to learning solutions and their early intervention schooling that they've been more than generous to help with with others so yeah this is good yeah we um i'm excited It kind of blows me away. We had a very small charity golf tournament. It was the same thing. It was a fundraiser for the group I go to Guatemala with. And I was shocked to find out the response that we got from that too. And so it just shows me there are people out there who they're really looking for ways of reaching out. And they're just looking for ways of helping. And so, again, this is such a great way of interconnecting. So we're looking forward to Expo.
    53:09
    The good part about having a group of people help you out is there's so many ideas being kicked around and so many helping hands. The one downfall is, though, I pitch an idea and I get shot down. And no one thinks I'm serious about the dunk booth. OK, we should get a dunk booth and we should put someone of high esteem in the community in that dunk booth. And if you came and donate to the auction, throw five balls at this. I get logistically. It's probably hard to get a dunk booth inside Expo, but it's OK. You know, Josh, we can put you in a dunk booth out in the in the parking lot. We'll be able to figure it out. if we had a dunk booth who would you put in there who would you want to be throwing baseballs at to dunk um because i don't want i don't want to be malicious like it would have to be someone who has a good sport like who basically everybody loves and everybody has a good time with and so that would have to be Jeff Teolis.
    54:12
    I don't know anybody who doesn't like Jeff. Jeff's such a great guy. We've hung out with him at a few of the shows. And he is just a positive guy. So, yeah, I would put Jeff in there. You put Teolis in there? Well, you're saying someone that everyone loves. I was like, you're going to put Steve Bowden in there? Yeah, you could put Steve in there, too. I'm going to put Marty over a shark tank, though. So, you know, one, one shot and he goes to the sharks.
    54:40
    Oh my goodness. But no, thank you. Thank you. Like I said, we're still a couple, we're still what, four months out. We're going to be hitting this a little bit harder as we get closer to it. But just know the response has been massive. Like, holy crap. Like I was not expecting the response. Facebook tracks the metrics This has trumped anything we've ever done before Like months combined In three days It was crazy Even our hot take on Deep Root It outpaced that Let me put it this way Our top five episodes Which are two Elwins Our Deep Root episode that we did with Zach and Dennis Our Zach episode And I can't remember Oh, the fifth one is our Expo episode when we talked about pinball Olympics and stuff like that, which is kind of goofy. But those five episodes combined, it beat those all together in less than three days on the metrics.
    55:47
    Holy crap. That's insane. So we know that people are excited for this. We know people are looking forward to this. And I've had people message me that we're not going to go to Expo. They're like, thank you for letting us know. we're already getting our tickets.
    56:03
    So people have messaged me from overseas that are like, well, I wasn't planning on coming to Expo, but if you're going to do this, we'll fly in from London. So it's like, oh, okay. Awesome.
    56:16
    All right. We got anything else? No, I think that's pretty much it. We're trying to line up a few more guests. This has been a little down year in news, and so we're trying to figure out the best things. So if you have any ideas of what you want us to explore, we actually have some opportunities of filling different episodes. So I think, I think we need to get Joe cats on. I'd really like to talk about, uh, more toy story. Sure. And get a little more in depth about the code and whatnot. Yeah. Great. Pat Waller. It'd be cool to have, have him on before, uh, yeah, we definitely, well, again, we'll, we'll reach out and see what we can get. So we do have some in the pipeline, but if you have suggestions, we're more than happy to, uh, to explore those avenues. Let's put that away. and i have a guest that i've had lined up for like a year and a half someone just needs to contact this person say do it it's it's time okay and no if you contact me ask me who it is i'm not telling you yeah i know yes and this person is pretty amazing very very let's put this way very influential on pinball yes so past present and future.
    57:29
    All right. Well, Josh, why don't you send us out? If you want to get a hold of us, we are on all the socials, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all at Loser Kid Pinball. If you want to email us at Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. It is easiest to get a hold of us via our personal accounts on Facebook at Scott Larson at Josh Roop. I don't know what the actual Facebook thing is. But get a hold of us. Chit chat with us. we're always happy to talk I'm a little more quiet these days than normal because I've got a lot on my plate so I do apologize if you message me and I totally forget to message you back but yeah don't take offense trust me and we appreciate those that do reach out like Tim Lee and it's always fun to talk to the triple drain guys man if you guys could be in on that chat we have some wild fun also shout out to the pins don't have too much fun this week uh we wish we were there in hershey pennsylvania with you yeah and definitely we need to bring the hangover medication and send it to hershey so yes if you guys could send them some some of that it would be great or actually do this if you're listening to this right now seriously your favorite hangover remedy there Whether it be a recipe, whatever it is. Send it to Christian and Sarah. Yes.
    58:56
    Whether you mail it or message them and say the Loser Kids love you. Seriously, just send your... No, just say the Loser Kids said you needed some hangover remedies. Here you go.
    59:06
    Yes. Christian and Sarah pin. Lie on Facebook. Do it. We should give away some stickers to every person that shows evidence.
    59:19
    Anyhow. All right, well, hopefully we'll get at least a few sent out. So anyway, we'll see you in roughly two weeks.
    59:26
    Sounds good.