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Episode 142 - Wizards of the Post

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 15m·analyzed·May 31, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Eclectic Gamers covers pinball news: Spooky teases announcement, JJP faces quality complaints, Pinball Adventures reveals Elements.

Summary

Dennis and Tony discuss their recent gaming activities, including Tony's reengagement with Final Fantasy XIV MMO, and then pivot to extensive pinball coverage including Spooky's upcoming announcement (possibly Gamera), Jersey Jack Pinball persistent playfield quality control issues, and a deep dive into Pinball Adventures' new Elements game with unconventional display design and British-accented marketing video.

Key Claims

  • Fathom Revisited Mermaid Edition sold out with approximately 30 units remaining the day before sellout

    medium confidence · Dennis reports reading that 30 units remained the day before Haggis sold out; some speculation that an entity may have purchased remaining units to hit threshold

  • Spooky Pinball signs suggest imminent next game announcement, possibly Gamera

    medium confidence · Dennis notes signs being dropped from Spooky; Charlie (owner) was photographed by Evil Dead/Army of Darkness poster, heavily suggesting that game was designer-wanted but couldn't get Bruce Campbell's voice due to cost

  • Jersey Jack Pinball continues to have widespread playfield quality control issues with art chipping and clear adhesion problems

    high confidence · Dennis reviewed massive Pinside thread discussing issue; HAP (high-end pins owner/restorer) confirmed misinformation about problem but affirmed the art/clear bonding issue is real and widespread on JJP games

  • JJP's stated solution for damaged playfields is full refund if customer returns game, which most reject due to higher secondary market prices

    high confidence · Dennis reports one customer recently heard back from JJP about damaged playfield; JJP offered full refund as only remedy

  • Playfield quality issues may stem from digital printing adhesion problems rather than new environmentally-friendly clear

    medium confidence · Dennis notes HAP's technical analysis; issue likely ink-to-playfield bonding with digital printing, not clear formulation, since issue didn't occur with screen printing

  • Pinball Adventures' Elements game uses simple rule philosophy targeting location play appeal

    high confidence · Dennis reviews video; Pinball Adventures specified rules would be simple, consistent with their Punny Factory design philosophy that complex rulesets are problematic

  • Elements features small LCD screen in apron area showing scores and animations, with separate topper display

    medium confidence · Dennis describes video; small LCD in apron similar to Gen 1 Atari displays, with stretched LCD topper for random animations relating to fought elements

Notable Quotes

  • “Everyone needs an advocate. If you're one person buying from a large corporation, then you don't have sway on the event of a problem or issue.”

    Michael W. (email) @ early in pinball segment — Defends distributor model by highlighting power imbalance between individual consumers and large manufacturers; cites Kingpin and Flippin' Out as exemplary warranty-beyond distributors

  • “If you're so worried about it and not so invested in it, just don't open the box and flip it as soon as you get it.”

    Tony @ JJP quality discussion — Suggests secondary market arbitrage as workaround for damaged goods concern; implies customers view damaged machines as investment flips rather than play-equipment

  • “Do not trust a hope. It has forsaken these lands, Tony. It has forsaken these lands. Darkness has descended upon the land.”

    Dennis @ after JJP discussion — Dramatic response to Tony's hope that JJP knows the cause of their quality issues; signals pessimism about manufacturer accountability

  • “But Spooky and American Pinball and by and large Stern and Chicago Gaming, they're not having this problem. What's JJP's problem?”

    Dennis @ JJP quality discussion — Isolates JJP as outlier in quality; implies competitive disadvantage vs peers

  • “I do have a link in the show notes for folks so you can go and check out their sneak peek video that Tony and I are going to talk about.”

    Dennis @ Pinball Adventures intro — Signals deep coverage of niche manufacturer not getting coverage elsewhere; positions Eclectic Gamers as platform for overlooked industry

Entities

DennispersonTonypersonMichael W.personHAPpersonCharliepersonBruce CampbellpersonTodd TuckeypersonSpooky PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: JJP's refund-only resolution policy for damaged playfields is inadequate and likely to damage brand reputation; customers using secondary market arbitrage workaround

    high · Dennis: JJP offering full refunds as only remedy; customers rejecting because machines sell for more used than retail; suggests JJP not addressing root cause and relying on demand to absorb complaints

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinball community frustrated with JJP's radio silence on quality issues and lack of transparent remediation policy; contrast with other manufacturers who solved or addressed issues

    high · Dennis: 'it's disappointing. And of course, as we've seen with all of these manufacturers... JJP's playing the game right now and they're not saying anything. And that's what's also aggravating. It's like radio silence'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pinball Adventures pursuing 'simple rulesets' philosophy as market differentiation, targeting location play accessibility over competitive complexity

    high · Dennis: 'they're running with the theory that rules in pinball are getting too complicated people want easy to understand easy to play rule sets, which I think this makes sense for location play'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Spooky Pinball dropping signs suggesting imminent announcement; Charlie photographed by Evil Dead/Army of Darkness poster suggesting potential game theme

    medium · Dennis: 'signs are being dropped now from Spooky that the next game announcement appears to be imminent' and Charlie posing by Evil Dead poster 'heavily suggested' that was designer-desired game

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.226

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, May 30th. This is episode 142. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. We have content. There's content You know what, there is so much content That I actually left a bunch of video game stuff on the floor It's probably for the best Because I stuck in more pinball last night And more pinball this morning And we were just discussing We're going to get into it Because one of them is pretty interesting And I don't know if it's going to get a lot of coverage On the other podcasts So we will do our best But Tony, I know you've had a video game filled Past couple weeks I have. I've played video games. Okay, I've played a video game.
1:02
Let's face it. I did something that I said I wasn't going to do. You lied. You're a liar. I fell to the siren song.
1:14
I've often talked about how I don't have time for MMOs anymore. So siren song. Not mermaid song, but siren song. So the siren song, I went ahead and installed the free trial of Final Fantasy XIV.
1:31
That is what is known as a mistake. Because the game is lovely, the music is amazing, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. And that's bad. Because now that's your life. It's not my life. It actually hasn't taken over nearly as bad as some of the MMOs I've played in the past. I was in serious consideration of reinstalling EVE, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because I knew the only way I could play that game and be happy is if I reinstalled all four of my accounts so that I could run all four at the same time. And I just didn't want to do that.
2:11
Pinball Adventures
company
Stern Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Chicago Gaming Companycompany
Kingpincompany
Flippin' Outcompany
Fathom Revisited Mermaid Editionproduct
Guns N' Roses Pinballgame
Punny Factorygame
Elementsgame
Haggiscompany
Pinsideorganization
Rick and Mortygame
Total Nuclear Annihilationgame

manufacturing_signal: Digital printing adhesion to playfields may be root cause of JJP art/clear failures, diverging from legacy screen-printing manufacturing

medium · Dennis: 'there's a lot of suspicion that it's something to do, perhaps, with the digital printing that's now happening on the playfields, because this was not a problem with the screening back when they were screen printing'

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market pricing of damaged JJP limited editions remains high, creating perverse incentive for customers to flip rather than report/replace; suggests scarcity premium exceeds quality concerns

    medium · Dennis: 'why would people... if they're selling for more used than they do why would you ever... if you know that it's damaged?' suggesting customers treat damaged units as investment flips

  • ?

    content_signal: Pinball news cycle accelerating; multiple announcements expected imminently (Spooky, Pinball Adventures, implied others)

    medium · Dennis: 'All of a sudden the news is happening. Finally, news is flowing. There's actual pinball stuff' and 'I think it's very conceivable we might have yet more pinball news' by next episode

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack Pinball experiencing systemic playfield adhesion failures affecting art and clear coat; widespread across recent releases

    high · Dennis reviewed massive Pinside thread; HAP (expert restorer) confirmed issue is real; affects Guns N' Roses and other JJP machines; other manufacturers (Stern, Spooky, American Pinball, Chicago Gaming) not experiencing comparable problems

  • ?

    business_signal: Manufacturer shift toward direct sales channels continuing; Stern expanding direct sales (Mandalorian limited editions, Star Wars home pin); newer companies default to direct model

    high · Dennis: 'All of the newer companies that I am aware of do at least a portion direct sale. And even Stern is now as well' and 'Stern has done with some of their Mandalorian limited editions when they made them available to their insiders through their website'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Pinball Adventures using non-traditional display architecture: small LCD in apron with separate topper display for animations, moving away from standard backbox DMD/screen placement

    medium · Dennis describes Elements features 'small screen that's designed to show the scores and also some small animations in the apron' plus 'stretched display like an LCD, but stretched out kind of like a DMD' as topper

    • I'm still in the free trial of Final Fantasy XIV. There is a ton of stuff you can do. There's actually people out there who have whole guides to all the stuff you can do in the free trial, and it's a lot.
    2:24
    I probably won't be doing everything you can do in the free trial before I buy it just because Square heard this siren. They're like, I think Tony just installed. Oh, man, we haven't seen him since Final Fantasy XI.
    2:40
    Oh, let's throw 60% off sale out there. So the whole game is on sale for 60% off So I'm probably going to go ahead and pull the trigger It's been sounding to me like For a week now That the trigger is essentially pulled already I haven't done it yet I'm going to It's just a click or two away It is It's been interesting because The Crafting system Is what mainly I've been messing around A lot with because I'll watch TV and do crafting rotations and logging rotations and mining rotations, and it doesn't take any real effort or thought from me, and I can do those without a problem. So like when I watched Army of the Dead, I was doing that. When I was watching my normal shows that I watch, I just did a crafting rotation. And thus all my crafting jobs are way higher than my actual combat. I liked crafting in XI. Other than that stuff would break, you'd fail. Yes. And the higher end stuff, when you were using rare components, it could be – I still remember. It didn't happen to me, but I remember I had a Link Shell member who he was getting some super special item made. It was like the ultimate thing for his job, and he had to go and get this rare Divine Lumber it was. Divine Lumber. I remember because I think I helped do the boss fight to get the Divine Lumber, and it didn't always drop. It was horrifically grindy. And then he went and he paid someone because you had to find people who had a high enough skill to be able to make this stuff. And they charged you in-game currency for it. And he went, the person, and it shattered and he lost all the components. The divine lumber being the most devastating one because that was a 24-hour spawn timer boss. So it could spawn within plus or minus two hours. It only came once a day, not in an instance. So anyone on the server could fight it and take it from you. And when he finally got the drop, he didn't get the item and it blew up. Yeah. And then tiers started. Whereas I was a cook, so most of my stuff was relative. Like royal jelly was the rarest item, and that wasn't a high-demand thing. Like the food was good, it was useful, but because it was temporary, it didn't have the same demand as, you know, material goods. So I usually didn't face as much competition, but I did get, I did fully max out the crafting. It was one of my favorite things to do. Yeah, it's, and like I said, it's been fun. And that was one thing, that was why, one of the reasons I'd left Eleven originally was how grindy it was. Because Eleven was really bad about, oh, you're over level five. Well, it's time for you to be in a very well-balanced party if you want to get anything else for the rest of the game. And this game's not like that at all. Yeah. No, that's a good example. I mean, there was so much in XI I liked. But the need to rely on other people in a particular manner. I mean, it was such that you would go, you'd do in-game, which I was very involved with. And you would die so much to the bosses and stuff. you would de-level. You would lose your level. And it's not like, other than maybe a Beastmaster, it was not like you could go and easily get XP by yourself. So you actually, in the end game, had to have leveling parties to get everyone back up to max level because of the damage you took doing end game stuff. And it was just tedious. It was so much tedium. I mean, I'm sure there'll be stuff and end game stuff like that. But as is, I've only had to do a couple parties that were directly tied to storyline stuff. And even that was fast, easy, and fun. I bet it's a lot better. I mean, XI was – I'm sure XIV learned a lot from World of Warcraft, which did a lot of the leveling stuff way better than XI ever did. XI was – it very much fit in what we, I think, broadly, at least at the time, stereotyped as the Japanese MMO mentality. which was like there was also this desire that any items they ever added, they never added better items later. Just things that, you know, stuff that was better for a different spec. Right. Like there was this thing about never displacing anything that was in the game already. Right. So it was, you know, there's always a – and again, it seemed to fit in this mentality of you worked really hard for this item. It shouldn't become superfluous. Well, Warcraft learned not only should items be superfluous, we should just add new level caps eventually. And that was another problem that plagued XI is they just couldn't – because their balancing with the sub-job system was so dependent. It was knife-edge. They did finally raise levels after I left, and it caused issues that just changed the dynamics dramatically. Like it was set up in a way that people couldn't sub-red mage and be able to have the same healing capabilities as the white mages. Right. And then that kind of got flipped upside down in a way. Not fully upside down, but it was different when they finally reached those new thresholds. Yeah. Because some things were set at levels with very particular reasons in mind. So, yeah, balancing is hard. Yeah. Just ask Overwatch.
    8:00
    We'll talk about that. Yeah. But speaking of what I've been doing, I finished the game I had just started the last time, Call of Cthulhu. So the video game version, not the board game version. You lost all your sand. Yeah. and yeah, actually at the end of the game I was pretty much completely crazy and then I haven't started a new game since Overwatch has had an anniversary event going on so I've been playing a little bit more of that than I normally would so that's pretty much it and I think we'll go ahead and we'll move into pinball though I should note I thought our last episode got way more feedback than I thought it would in areas I didn't think. Yeah. So I thought the biggest thing I might have would be a few people that would take issue with me taking issue, well, our stance on that Baby Yoda gets to be Baby Yoda. Right. You know, I thought we'd have a good nerd argument. Not really. We had one person who did not like our coverage of Stadia, thought it was too negative. And we had a mix of people either like our brief distributor discussion or dislike our distributor discussion. Yes, we did. And to open the pinball section, I want to quote an email that actually just came in a couple days ago to our EGP email, which by the way, is at collectogamerspodcast.gmail.com. It's Michael W. Wrote in and he took a different position from us versus where we were really steering on the distributor discussion. So I just wanted to read it because I thought it would provide an interesting other perspective to listeners besides what we covered last time. So this is the relevant part of the email. I was just contemplating something you guys said in your last podcast. It was about how you don't think there is a place for distributors in the coming years. I would argue that point for one simple reason. Everyone needs an advocate. If you're one person buying from a large corporation, then you don't have sway on the event of a problem or issue. However, if you're a dealer who buys a bunch of games in a year, then a supplier is more likely to listen to them. It's like my job where we have levels of service, bronze, silver, gold, and platinum. We respond quickly to platinum customers. I bet other manufacturers treat their high sales distributors the same way. While distributor may not always be the one answering the tech support calls, I can think of at least two who will continue to help you even after the warranty has long expired. And he gave the examples of Kingpin and Flippin' Out, which are two pinball distributors. They are what exemplify why distributors will continue to be necessary and an important part of a successful sales model. So thank you, Michael, for the email and providing a differing perspective. We heard a fair number of talk about this, and some of them I actually agree with a lot of them that there could be very well a future for the distributor model. And some of them have even been far enough to convince me that it'd be good for the players, which I kind of always thought distributors could be good for the players. But it depends on the distributor. I guess that's something we didn't really emphasize or discuss. Again, it was only a couple-minute discussion. But my perspective on why I think that the model will fade, if not go away, fade more to seeing more manufacturer direct sales has nothing to do with the benefit of the customer. It's for the benefit of the manufacturer.
    11:28
    And that's why I think it will happen. And we've seen it happen with many, if not all of these startups. All of the newer companies that I am aware of do at least a portion direct sale. And even Stern is now as well. So I don't think we're – it's not that we're advocating for a shift. The shift is happening. Right. Because it's one of those things that they're the manufacturer, and if they decide it's in their best interest, then it doesn't matter to anybody else. And I say just look at what Stern has done with some of their Mandalorian limited editions when they made them available to their insiders through their website. So the shift even with Stern has been – and that wasn't even the first. The Star Wars home pin stuff was already showing signs of this.
    12:08
    But anyway, it's an interesting topic. But that's not one I want to really focus on for this episode because we've got a lot of other stuff. We do. That we need to focus on. So let's move on to the next topic, which is Haggis. This is a brief note. We talked about that they had, you were talking about Sirens, different than Mermaids. The Fathom Revisited Mermaid Edition did sell out. So the last week, the day before it sold out, I believe I had read that approximately 30 were remaining. And I guess they sold those in the last day. Now, the impression I've been given, I don't know if this is true or not, is that perhaps some entity bought a number of them and let them reach that threshold. But that's fine. That's fine. They were sold. They were already so close to sold out. They passed their 200 level. It was very successful, regardless of it truly reached that or not. So anyway, congratulations. I mean, if it was something where, like, a distributor bought a handful to sell. You know, someone did that to me once regarding some shirts back when I did Twip the podcast. And in that instance, it was not appreciated because it mandated me meeting certain obligations that I did not want to meet. But, you know, those were the rules I set. So I had to, you know, shame on me for thinking I was so clever. And in reality, I just set myself up for failure. So anyway, congratulations to Haggis. Those aren't expected until later this summer to start. Yeah.
    13:42
    Next topic, Spooky Pinball. Just as an FYI to those that don't follow the forums or the Facebook discussions, but signs are being dropped now from Spooky that the next game announcement appears to be imminent. Gamera! so yeah i mean there was one that was like uh i think the one of the owners charlie was posing by one of the i can't remember his evil dead or evil dead 2 or army of darkness but in front of one of those posters yeah you know that was one where it was heavily suggested i believe by one of the designers at one point that that was a game that the designer wanted them to go with, but they couldn't get Bruce Campbell's voice. It's too expensive, which makes me wonder if it is indeed going to be. They might just be trolling with that evil debt, which is a good troll. But whether or not post Rick and Morty, they have enough money to get Bruce or Bruce is cheaper now than he was then, because back when those discussions were still going on, I think that the TV show was still going. I'm not aware that that still is or not. I don't know. I only watched the first two seasons, and then after that I know the showrunner left, and I did not like the direction it sounded like it was going to go in. I didn't even bother to look into the third season. I never watched any of it. It's fun. The first season in particular, I think.
    15:10
    Or maybe given just how crazy these pinball prices have gotten lately, they could just say, let's just pay them and we'll just up the cost. Let's add it into the games. I mean, it will, it will, it would be a huge hit. I, I think there are a lot of people really hoping that Spooky does a real horror theme again. Not this, oh, well, we're a sci-fi company too. They are. It's smart for them to be. I'm not saying that they should rename or only do horror, but they definitely don't do horror. And they used to imply that's what they were going to do. Right. And their most successful games are not horror. Rick and Morty is not a horror and neither is Total Nuclear Annihilation.
    15:49
    So anyway, just I think maybe by our next episode, I think it's very conceivable we might have yet more pinball news. All of a sudden the news is happening. Finally, news is flowing. There's actual pinball stuff. It's awesome.
    16:03
    Very exciting. So much excitement. Now, in more negative excitement, I think we need to talk a little bit about Jersey Jack pinball, Tony.
    16:12
    Do they have an announcement? No. Other than they're still releasing their very popular, highly successful game, Guns N' Roses Pinball. Right. The problem is there continues to be an increased volume of discussion about playfield quality control issues, which it seems plague JJP more than any other manufacturer in the business. So this is something that I have been loosely aware of ongoing. Obviously, we have in the past discussed not only with JJP but other manufacturers that have had challenges with their play field quality issues, particularly art and clear chipping and coming up off of the games. And that's what we're talking about here. So just the other day, I did go through and review the massive thread on Pinside discussing this. And it's an interesting thread. It's not – it's negative. I mean, it's Pinside. It's negative. But not overly so. I mean, there are a lot of concerns, but I think it's a useful thread for a couple of reasons. One, the owner-operator of high-end pins or HEP, who is well known for doing some, if not, I'd say most people would say he is the top restorer of pinball machines in the game. And so as part of that process, he does a lot of clearing. He works with a lot of playfield restoration and playfield preparation. He has weighed in numerous times in the thread, admitting he has basically no interest in, like, he doesn't care if JJP gets it right or not. That's not his, that's, it's not impacting him. Right. but there's a lot of misinformation, which isn't unusual, that's been coming out about what's wrong with the play field. So based off of his 20 plus years of experience, he has provided information regarding like the child. And some of this is stuff I've seen before, but you know, it's real easy for misinformation. So there are people that like, will think that you could store the game for two years and the clear will harden up more and that'll solve the problem. And yeah, yeah. You can see Tony's reaction. Well, they don't know how clear works. They don't understand the hardening time is very, very, very brief, and even the cure time isn't years. So he's – I'm just going to sit on it in the box for two years, and it will be perfect when we come out. I mean people are showing examples of because obviously this podcast I can show people photos But the examples are generally where posts are tightened down There is clear that bubbles up around it chips away from it and the art comes up with it So Hap has suggested things you could do while the problem is still a problem like using a smaller washer underneath the post which when it tightened down yes will cause the chipping but it would be a smaller footprint So it would be masked by – you could either use a larger washer underneath it or it shouldn't come out past the post. Right. But that fundamentally the problem seems to be with the way the ink is bonded to the playfield and then the clear staying bonded to the art, the ink, is tearing the ink – it's staying connected to the clear. Right. Like it should. Yeah. And that's something I recall someone else once discussing who had experience with clear coat was talking about that. there's a lot of suspicion that it's something to do, perhaps, with the digital printing that's now happening on the playfields, because this was not a problem with the screening back when they were screen printing. But there are a lot of people that still seem to think that this is because of environmental regs and that the new clear is the problem. But I'm not saying that there aren't challenges with the new, more environmentally friendly clear, but if the clear is staying attached to the art, then the clear seems to be doing its job. Right. So I just gave some information about all of that, And also noted that you can still use, in almost all locations, you could still use the old clear if you wanted to. It's not illegal. Maybe in California. Yeah, but how many manufacturers are based in California? So it's moot. Yeah. Is the point. So anyway, it's getting a lot of play. One of the things, one of the owners that posted, I mean, obviously frustration is paramount with many of the people. Just like, why isn't this solved yet? They point to statements made by those with JJP that had suggested the problem is solved. Most of the other manufacturers have either appeared to solve the problem or the problem, like in Stern's case, seems to come up intermittently. Like when in high humidity times, sometimes they seem to have more of an issue than other. But it's not like this where it's impacting so many games. Right. And the the lack of a of an ideal resolution replacement or repair policy, which I know I've at least over with the pinball show podcast. I've talked about that before, but there was one person who just recently said they did hear back from J.J.P. about their pretty obviously damaged play field. And J.J.P.'s proposal was, well, if you would like to send us the game back, we'll give you a full refund. there you go so that's the that's the fix but obviously most people are like but who would do that you could sell it used more right which is also part of the interesting challenge because why would people uh i mean there are people that are saying they have canceled their incoming orders on le's and stuff but on the ce's with the limited count when they're selling for more use than they do why would you ever even if they're damaged that's where some of the people are wondering, well, will it if you know that it's damaged? I don't, I guess we'll find out, but people are mad. At that point, if you're so worried about it and not so invested in it, just don't open the box and flip it as soon as you get it. Yeah. It's, and I think that's perhaps what some will do. I mean, I, I do sympathize if I paid $12,500 for something and the paint was chipping away on it. Right. I would complain too. Oh, I agree completely. And I do think it's, It's pretty poor form for JJP to not be offering replacement play fields anymore, except even at cost. It's like, yeah, maybe once you're past a certain warranty period. But if this isn't caused by wear, if this is because you either your ink isn't adhering properly or and or I should probably say you're over torquing down all of your components on the surface of the play field. That's a you problem. Right. So fix your you problem. And I think the big thing is just they have enough orders, there's enough demand, and the people crying about it is probably a small enough amount that they just don't care. I saw one say, going back to our distributor discussion, I just saw one say they didn't say who their distributor was, but that their distributor bought them a play field as a replacement. But I imagine a distributor doesn't want to end up having to do that for all their customers. It would shock me if the distributor asked the client, don't say that. Don't say who I am because I can't. I mean, because that would come out of their profit. I don't know how feasible it would be for them to buy Playfield. I mean, it's not like they're 20 bucks. No. They're kind of pricey. So anyway, it's just, it's disappointing. And of course, as we've seen with all of these manufacturers, and I do mean all. I mean, I know people will give spooky credit for being one of the first to solve the problem. But I remember right after getting my TNA, the radio silence on, they were super cagey. They would never say what numbers of their run on TNA were the ones impacted by the art issue. Right. I mean, they played the game too. But JJP's playing the game right now and they're not saying anything. And that's what's also aggravating. It's like radio silence. But it's one of those things that from their point of view, nothing they say is going to be right. Right. Again, this is consistent with what we've seen from all the other – I mean, Stern was the same way. They never really admitted much other than, yeah, we look into customer complaints on quality and we try and find – just super vague things. And Spooky was the same. But the thing is now everyone is like, but Spooky and American Pinball and by and large Stern and Chicago Gaming, they're not having this problem. What's JJP's problem? I don't know. And JJP don't want to tell you. And maybe they don't know. I hope they know. I'd hope by now they would know. You would hope, but... Do not trust a hope. It has forsaken these lands, Tony. It has forsaken these lands. Darkness has descended upon the land.
    24:50
    That was a great epic voice. And given your great epic voice, I want to discuss another great epic voice that we both just heard this morning. So I want to talk about pinball adventures. And here's the topic. I'm not sure it's going to get a ton of play on the other podcast, but here on Eclectic Gamers Podcast, Tony, we give the people what they want. And what do they want? They want more Pinball Adventures. Who doesn't? So there is a video that dropped about, I think, at the time of this recording three days ago regarding an upcoming game that they're going to be doing called Elements. Now, for those that don't know, Pinball Adventures made their name in pinball regarding releasing a book that was a collaboration with Todd Tuckey of TNT Amusements, I believe. He has got a lot of videos on YouTube doing restaurant. They're really fun. It's a fun thing. So Todd's really popular. And there were some issues with the booklet when it was coming out, quality issues and such. But since then, they have become more of a full-fledged pinball company. And their first game, Punny Factory, has been the one that, if you talk about pinball adventures, it's the one you discuss because it's the one that everyone's seen. Right. And I'm not aware of where that stands in terms of how many they've made or if they've been sent to. I haven't been following it. Yep. Not at all. Pinball Adventures has not really been on my radar other than I know that they're around.
    26:12
    So I do have a link in the show notes for folks so you can go and check out their sneak peek video that Tony and I are going to talk about.
    26:24
    Yeah. Okay. So this video is different. It's – This video is different than when I – we'll go into that I think at the end. Let me talk a little bit about the game first to get the basics out of the way. Okay. So this game has a ramp. Pony Factory was a single level. So this game has, I think it has a couple of return ramps, one from a mini play field and one that's an actual ramp shot.
    26:49
    They are doing a different approach with the display. So it has a small screen that's designed to show the scores and also some small animations in the apron. And the only thing I can say is if you've ever seen the Gen 1 Atari games like Middle Earth and stuff from the 70s, think that. Except like a little LCD. Right.
    27:16
    I'm going to be frank like I often am, Tony. It was a super unpopular way to display scores because spectators couldn't see them. Now, in the video, they do touch on the concern about spectators not being able to see what's going on. So they also stressed that not in the back box, but as the topper, there would be a stretched display like an LCD, but stretched out kind of like a DMD. I'm not sure why it's a topper and why they're going with that particular framing. I guess the scores will be there But I wasn't perfectly clear on that The thing that the video emphasized Which I thought was very odd Was that they said it would display Random animations Relating to the things That are being fought So things being fought Are played against in the game So to me it sounds like It's a video screen That's got an animation on loop That's just Much like a topper It is a topper So, you know, designed to grab people's eye and give you a sense of the theme. But it's not actually going to integrate into whatever is going on in the game unless it also is overlaying the scores, which, again, I wasn't clear that that's going to happen. But FYI, there's that. As I know, there is a mini play field, which is sort of like a, you know, it's on top. It's not an upper play field per se, but think along those lines, that style of mini play field. Maybe kind of like Mandalorian has a mini play field. and then there's also a sort of creature of the black from the black lagoon style insert area which is supposed to highlight what next shot you're going to do regarding the elements that you're fighting i guess the elements are bad so you're fighting the elements um the elements are the monsters of the game or whatnot uh the video also did specify that the rules would be simple which i think is something that they stuck with with punny factory is they're running with the theory that rules in pinball are getting too complicated people want easy to understand easy to play rule sets, which I think this makes sense for location play. So anyway, the video does have renderings of like in visual pinball or something of what the game kind of is expected to shoot like and stuff.
    29:34
    This video though, Tony, it's really weird. Does it want to be, like is it trying to be like memeable? Because it seems to be what the... Alright, so I'll open with the first thing that stood out to me is there's a someone with a British accent who occasionally slips into yield English in a have you ever played the game two worlds no drip drip drop those that know the game understand what I just said two worlds was an RPG it's an absolute disaster train wreck of a game. It is so terrible. I encourage everyone to play it who enjoys RPGs to know just how bad it could be. The game is playable, except it was laggy. Like, you could ride horses, but the horses were so broken, I walked everywhere. I won this game. I played it all the way through and won it. Though, incidentally, you can win the game within the first 15 minutes if you want to. There's a way. There are videos online that'll show you how. It's not hard to do. and anyway the audio though was a case in point so i mentioned drip drip drop because in the game it had weather which at the time was still somewhat newish i mean i don't know zelda kind of did it way way long ago but um so my character when it would start raining he's supposed to sometimes he'd go drip drip drop while you're right walking or riding your horse or whatever except the game was so laggy and buggy he'd say it when it was sunny out and then when it would start raining it was five minutes later he'd bring it up and it was so weird and it's like the dev team did all the voices and the way they they did the dialogue is everything is like thy shout not style ye olde yeah real old english fake style though so you had non-voice actors trying to deliver these lines it's so cringe the whole thing is cringe you have people it's like no leave my No life alone, ye monster. Ye scallywag. It's really bad. You should play it. You should play that and stuff on Final Fantasy XIV. You should suffer. They made it Two Worlds, too, where they made fun of in their trailers how bad Two Worlds was. But it wasn't so bad they didn't make a sequel.
    31:54
    The sequel sucks, too. Yeah. But it's not worth playing in the same way because it's not so bad. It's like, have you ever seen Uwe Boll's Blood Rain? and seen Blood Rain 2? No. Okay. Blood Rain 2 is not worth it. It's just boring. Blood Rain is so cringe that you should watch it. Oh, it's so bad. I have it on DVD because it's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad that it deserves to be watched. It reaches that pinnacle. So what does that have to do with this? Okay. Well, this video, there's someone narrating, and they keep showing clips of a wizard? I don't know. He has got a USS Enterprise book or puzzle or something in the upper right corner. Yeah, it's the Chilton's repair guide for the USS Enterprise that they put out. Okay. So, but the rest of the room is done up in fantasy. Like, he's got figurines of Saruman and Gandalf and stuff in a cabinet, and he's got these, like, lamps that are meant to look like candles. All right. The point is, he's not the narrator. They're dubbing. It's like they got stock footage of a wizard guy, and they're dubbing him. They're dubbing him over. The lips don't remotely sync up. They have him saying things when his mouth isn't moving at all. It's worse than any 70s kung fu movie you can think of. And even the video itself is cringe. Like they did at points his wand is supposed to be glowing. So they've clearly added the lens flare filter effect. But he's moving the wand around and they don't move the filter. So it just glows in this one spot. So I was just like, why are you doing it this way? Why couldn't you just dress the guy up as a wizard? Also, why is there a guy that's a wizard? This game doesn't have anything to do with wizards They talk about how It's representing both genders Which I thought is a weird way To describe it That was cringe But the way they describe that It makes me think, okay, was that a complaint Of Punny Factory, that Punny Factory Did not represent both genders And Why was that ever allowed to be a problem in Punny Factory I mean, that's the thing anyone can tell a pun so I don't understand why you let that be a bear one of the art images in here talking about well we're representing both genders and we have Valkyries has a Valkyrie in a bikini with tentacles wrapped around her arm so they're definitely spot on the representing the genders thing they definitely seem to be real good I'm not sure this is going to go over though I do have to another part that got a chuckle out of me is when they said female Valkyrie versus all the male Valkyries. Right.
    34:32
    It's a Valkyrie. When you say a mermaid, we know it's not a merman. It's a merman. You said mermaid. You don't need to say female mermaid. We know what that means.
    34:45
    Also, the... But Wizard is in one of the characters. They talked about some... Conan the Bavarian type. They flat out called him that. There's the Valkyrie, the female Valkyrie. And then Ninja. Well, obviously.
    35:04
    There was a video game called Pirates vs. Ninjas, which really was leaning into. There was a brief period, for those that don't know. Oh, God, I'm going all over the place on this podcast. For those that don't know, like around 2012 or so, there was a time where Pirates and Ninjas got really popular. And the idea of, like, comboing them was one of those sort of ridiculous things that tastes good. So let's do it. And it kind of reached peak cringe. like within eight months and then it went away right so anyway again this is all playing up like you're dealing with elements like wood and metal and water and fire and you know very fantastical stuff i get the idea of a wizard but ninja okay i i guess why not i mean let's see uh tentacle valkyrie wrapped up and ninjas i i guess if you if you know 13 year olds that have enough money to buy these pinball machines uh i guess you've got a hit it's gonna be huge but but tony you caught other things in the video i'm i'm impressed honestly i am subtly impressed that the budget for this game is so big that they were able to purchase art assets from wizards of the coast the with the wizards of the coast that controls what magic the gatherings under their auspices now. Dungeons and Dragons has been for decades. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Wizards of the Coast, because there are straight up art images that still have the Wizards of the Coast logo on them. I guess they're giving credit then. I saw the art and my first thought was this is way too good to be put on a pinball machine. Yes. No offense pinball artists, but when I saw this compared to, they showed some other art which I think is going to be the sides and the cabinet stuff and then this came up and i was like yeah it was totally different level it was next level this is like these are the guys that do the acrylic and watercolor painting for magic cards yeah and get that stuff scanned and a bunch of them are magic cards yes it's like that's a magic card i know that's a magic card i actually pointed that's because that's a magic card i know it's a magic card i've seen it before they took a magic card they stuck it in here and there were some others that that that i went ahead and it's like This looks really familiar. And they're in lists of fantastical creatures off of Pinterest and stuff like that. It's great art. It's great. The art is amazing. But it the kind of stuff that I expect when I looking on ArtStation or DeviantArt to find Pinterest Or Pinterest which just steals from ArtStation and DeviantArt and all that stuff Right right But it just one of those things I'm walking, I'm like, wow. Yeah, and so the licensing is a good point because my understanding is Wizards of the Curse doesn't have a reputation of looking favorably on people that just take their artist stuff. I don't know, they're not notorious. They're not as bad as some people. They're not like the recording industry. Right. They're not like Blizzard Who has gotten really bad In the last few years But still They definitely It was a surprise to me to see And the fact that Everything else looked like They had purchased themselves Access to a stock image gallery And pulled out like 90% of the stuff from that Yeah Anyway, again Link in the show notes to the video It's about six minutes long I'd say the narration stuff runs about four minutes And the last couple minutes is going through And showing you some features from the game And the renderings Right But it's so goofy Slash cringy that I do encourage people to watch It's worth the watch It's weird And we'll just have to wait and see how Elements ends up doing for Pinball Adventures One last thing, Tony and Pinball Again, we've had a lot I've tried to punch through it, but some of these things have to be celebrated, like videos on YouTube. This will not be celebrated, unfortunately, and that is the update from Deep Root Pinball. We've long been waiting. They said it was coming in May. And it did. It came out a little bit after our last episode. This is actually the oldest piece of news I had in our internal notes. Because this literally dropped like two days after the last episode or three days after the last episode. It was really close. So I'm going to go ahead and – it's a little long, and I apologize for that, but I am going to go ahead and read it because I think this is the best way to encapsulate it for the audience. Dear Raza customer, first I want to wish the amazing Mr. Bowden a very happy birthday. I'm honored he has decided to spend the occasion at work writing up more cool tips for his funwithbonus.com website. It was nice to catch up with him this morning about Raza. While it has been six weeks since our last update, we wish there was more to update on. We are dealing with the same issues most other small and large businesses are. That is, still struggling with some vendors over supply chain and deliveries, unable to hire staff because of labor shortages, and dealing with inflationary increases in part since we have not been able to execute quick enough. We come in every day and are chipping away at the diminishing obstacles to shipping our first RASAs. We want to keep communication open. However, it seems sometimes that these periodic updates don't convey the progress that is happening, nor does it solve the real goal of delivering games. At this point, we do not expect to send another mass update about Raza until after the July 4th weekend.
    40:32
    In the meantime, if some Raza customers wish to rescind their contracts and request their payments back, we will offer those on a first-come, first-served basis starting June 1st, 2021. You can apply to this email or use our online contact form on our website. Please include your name, order number, and a request to rescind the RASA purchase contract. Once accepted, your request is irrevocable. For those waiting on the waitlist, please again do not contact us to check on if you have a machine or not. We will do our best to fill as many requests as we can from the rescinded machines in order on the waitlist at the end of the RASA run. Since the list has grown from the last mass email We cannot guarantee to be able to accommodate everyone Best, Robert J. Moeller Principal, Deep Root Pinball So that's the message There's some red flags Yeah There's a couple There's some flags, they look a little crimson in shade There's a little I hear a bull stamping somewhere off to the side Alright, so Obviously There is soon to in just a couple of days after this episode drops, you will be able to, Raza customers, request a refund. They're not committing to refunding everyone. So that's one of the red flags. That's a huge red flag. Opening it up to breaking contract and doing refunds is in and of itself, I feel, a red flag. The discussion of progress being made and it being vague in the sense that nothing is being spelled out as to what that progress is, is also a red flag to me. and I also think that the waitlist statement is a bit of a red flag in the sense that the way it reads to me they're keeping it fairly opaque which isn't unusual in and of itself but I it makes me personally suspect that their hope I'm using hope loosely but their hope is or maybe better way to say is their intent is anyone who cancels they're not building that machine and I don't think they're going to sell them to the waitlist I don't I think if they I think if they thought they could reduce their build by 50, they'd happily just reduce the build by 50 at this stage. That's, of course, me still assuming that this is actually going to happen. Right. And that's a big assumption. I mean, why not? You don't have to go into every nut, bolt, and screw, but one could share what supply chain bottlenecks are. Is it the pin bar?
    43:00
    Is it parts related to the pin bar or what are holding us up? Right. What about the UL certification? All the other updates have been talking about that they still had not yet obtained their UL certification. Is that done? Do they give up? I mean, you don't have to have UL certification. My understanding is Spooky doesn't get UL certificate. I don't know why they don't, but they don't. That I've heard, at least when I bought. but I mean that was always a piece in all of these and now I don't see it so either it's done there's no news to report or they're still struggling with like they're still they had things to adjust but all of those could have been reported right oh yeah we got feedback and we had to make a few adjustments for the UL certification we're still waiting to hear back from the last submission on our UL certification, but just silence is, I mean, I, I get this. I get with the pinball people where his, you know, in his third paragraph about wanting to keep communication open, but that the periodic updates don't convey the progress that is happening or does it solve the real goal? Yeah, I get that doesn't solve the goal, but the reason these periodics don't convey the progress that's happening is you chose not to convey anything. Right. You didn't say all you said, oh, there's things happening. Yeah. You didn't say what those things were. You chose to keep it vague, so it's your own fault that progress isn't conveyed. I learned how to make better mac and cheese in the microwave today. Progress was made.
    44:24
    I mean. I mean, that's what it could be. And the simple fact of the matter is the only reason this happened as it's written at all is because the last time there was an update, they said there'd be an update by the end of May. Right. And I think that I'm glad that they did it. Yes. That's better than saying there'd be an update by the end of May and then not saying nothing. I think even as horrifically vague as this is, I think at least regularly releasing a statement is good for them. I think they should be doing this. Right. So I would not say drop doing it. And if you're still just going to keep it this vague, I'd still say go ahead and keep doing it. It's better than not saying anything at all given the situation you're currently in. But I don't think it's damaging. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think it's damaging to provide at least some vague level of detail. Like since our last update, we have increased our – we've received more parts that were bottlenecked, and we now have 85% of what's needed to complete the Raza builds, whereas at the last update, we were at 76%. Right. Or something as simple as talking about, well, while we're waiting on that, we have managed to make some modifications and we will be launching with a newer version of code. Yeah. And maybe some of that's over on the Fun With Bonus. Like, I didn't go and read what Steve had been updating on Fun With Bonus. Right. I actually have not. I still follow Fun With Bonus on Facebook and such, but I haven't been going to the website since it shifted to being all about Deep Root stuff. Right. I haven't either. Well, I don't have the game. If we had a game on location, then I'd want to learn the rules. I don't see any point in theoretically learning rules to a game I will never encounter in tournament because it doesn't exist. Right. And that's a very real possibility considering the, hey, if you want your full refund, we'll give you a full refund. Yeah. So anyway, it's a mess. It's unfortunate, but it's also not surprising to me. No. I think anybody who's surprised with it hasn't been paying attention. Even on Pennside, in the threads, and I've been reading the Deep Root thread again, there's very little defense of the company going on. And that's amazing on Pennside. Historically, there were always, shills isn't the right word, but I mean, I still remember, I remember, George, I remember the old days with Skit B and Highway Pinball and the sycophantic just defense of the companies while they were going down the drains and people that were just total head-in-the-sand denial and hoodwinked. And the people who were like, well, I'll buy a second machine just to help them out. Yeah, and I'm not seeing much of any of that with Deep Root. So maybe people have learned their lesson. I don't know. That or they created a new locked thread just for true believers. There could be more than one thread. I generally will only follow one thread at a time on a topic. Any more, I can't. Sorry, Mando and your five threads. No.
    47:32
    Actually, I think I'm following zero of the Mandalorian threads. They're all too busy. But you know what isn't too busy? Video games. That's a lie. Video games is so busy. I lied bad. It's actually, I think, got just as many bullets as the pinball section does, and you left stuff out. Yeah, and I dropped a bunch of things. So what do you want to start with in the video game section, Tony? I'm going to start with the Nintendo Switch.
    47:59
    Rumors are going around right now that Nintendo is getting ready to announce their upgraded version of the Switch, which has been, you know, pinball level of poorly held secret. Yeah, I've been seeing a lot about it.
    48:13
    They're going to announce the upgraded version before E3, so that it will release their third-party developers to show games off and talk about it at E3 instead of having to hide the fact that they're developing games for Switch that's not been announced yet. Because while nothing's been set in stone yet, it also sounds like Nintendo is going to be one of the final big things at E3. They're going to be last-day stuff. Okay. They're in their clubhouse or treehouse. Yeah, their treehouse. I was going to call it the treehouse of horrors. Yeah, but their big special display thing is going to be towards the last day, from the sounds of it. They're also hitting big with Pokemon this year.
    49:01
    Remakes of Diamond and Pearl are coming out in November. But what's interesting to me is, in January of next year, they're putting out Pokemon Legends Arceus. An open-world action RPG Pokemon game. supposedly.
    49:19
    Huh. I can't wait until we both limit break and team up the power of Squirtle and Pikachu to finally do a true electrocution move. It was kind of weird because in the video clip, the little teaser clip they showed, they literally had characters running around in the open field and like ducking down and sneaking up and hitting Pokemon with Pokeballs. I hope there's crafting I want my Bulbasaur to be a Goldsmith well the interesting thing is it is being according to what they said is they'll be brought to the Senoa region which is the same region from Diamond and Pearl but it's going to the story is going to unfold back in like feudal times it's like a long time ago it's before all the modern Pokemon no Pokemon League, no this and that It's you walking out and attacking wild Pokemon and building the first Pokedex and all this stuff. I don't know. My kids are going to love it. But it's just the thought of an action RPG Pokemon game is just mind-blowing to me. It's like they're changing Pokemon from the same basic pattern that it's been forever.
    50:37
    I'm just about to do like the over-the-top dialogue scenes like Persona style. Oh, man. But with Pokemon doing Pokemon, so it's like, pika, pika, pika, pika-choo!
    50:49
    It's like, no! And then an awesome jazz soundtrack in the background. Of course. And then you get some Pokemon doing the big splash cut, like you get from the old things. And you watch the other Pokemon just go, and just slide into two pieces. Squirtle!
    51:04
    It puts on the sunglasses. Something that takes the Pokemon. Oh, Squirtle's ultimate attack. He has to put on the Squirtle squad, or whatever they were called, with the sunglasses.
    51:13
    That it's. You know, I just like to see a Pokemon game that is as dark as Pokemon probably would be if it was real. I mean, bloody messes everywhere and just over the top, just craziness. I still remember the line from the epic rap battles of Charles Darwin versus Ash Ketchum. And when he calls Ash Mighty Morphin Michael Vick. Well, we'll jump from Nintendo to one of our favorite companies. It was. Blizzard.
    51:54
    That's my snowstorm sound. They did put out their announcement. BlizzCon 2021 has been canceled. Probably for the best. Yeah.
    52:03
    The direct quote from them is, Building an in-person BlizzCon is an epic and complex affair that takes many months of preparation. The ongoing complexities and uncertainties of the pandemic have impacted our ability to properly move forward on many of these fronts. And ultimately, we're now past the point where we'd be able to develop the kind of event we want to create for you in November. Translation, they don't know what to do without Papa Jeff. That's basically what it is. No Papa Jeff, they can't do anything. Now they did announce that they are planning on Having an event In early 22 Similar to the BlizzCon line God that was such a stupid name It was a bad name The event was alright Similar to that but they want to combine that With also having small regional Gatherings Yeah okay I mean I could see it We'll see what happens But what about What about Overwatch 2? That's the real news. Oh, there's rage everywhere. There's no rage. And excitement. It's weird. Everybody's happy. Actually, it's... Someone said they didn't... Nobody watched their whole livelihood and job plan just explode. You didn't hear every off tank in the Overwatch League simultaneously go... She was going to be fine. She's already Titan falling her way to victory. Oh, it's a mess now. It's such a mess. Yeah, no. Someone, I can't remember who it was That said they did a poll of their Viewers or whatever And it was like split 55% excited, 45% hate it I mean it's really polarized And very evenly split But continue Our listeners don't know what we're talking about I'm sure they don't They announced for Overwatch 2 That the PvP Since Overwatch 2 does have a PvE Section, the PvP section Will be 5 vs 5 into the six versus six, they are eliminating the off-tank position. So it'll be one tank, two support, two DPS.
    54:07
    And to make this viable, they're doing a major rework of all of the tanks, and they're changing the role of a tank to be instead of being targeted around protecting your team to being more of an in-your-face brawler.
    54:23
    So... How do you play Rein anyway? Right. Well, that's how you're supposed to play Rein. Rein isn't an in-your-face brawler who occasionally puts up a shield. If you're just holding your shield up, you're not playing Rein right.
    54:37
    But it's going to be a major change for Orisa players. And, yeah, all of the off-tanks are going to have to have some pretty heavy changes to make themselves viable in the system. I think most, well, I think all tanks are going to have to, I mean, some of the, I don't know. I mean, because most of the main tanks are main tanks because they're so shieldy. Yeah, and this should destroy the shield meta that has become the thing, but we'll see what happens. They also showed off some of their, the new role passives that they're putting into the game, like DPS heroes just move faster. and support heroes self-heal if they're not being attacked continuously. And tank characters don't get knocked back or as heavily affected by crowd control, and they provide less ultimate charge when they're being to opponents who are attacking them. So that'll be helpful.
    55:45
    Apparently Bastion is being rebuilt from the ground up. We're starting over with Bastion. Yeah, well, they started over with him before. Yeah, this is like the third time they've tried to make Bastion work.
    55:58
    There are two new game modes. The already announced push that they first showed at BlizzCon 2019. Yeah, I think so. And another one that they've not announced. They just said there's another one coming. But they won't say what it is yet. And in addition to that what we have known for a while is 2CP is being removed from competitive play and will be replaced by one of the new game modes That actually probably go over pretty well I think so They did say the two CP maps will remain for use in other stuff like create-a-game stuff. Oh, okay. So the maps won't go away, but they're just not going to be part of competitive anymore. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to... I don't... Without knowing what all the changes will be, it's hard for me to say that I wouldn't prefer a five V five versus a six V six. It's kind of where I'm at. I'm, I'm at the point where having still just sort of casually played competitively to get my gold gun credits. I usually do my placements and that's about it. Um, is I'm, I would welcome a shakeup to the game at this point. So I'm, I'm pretty open to the idea. I could see where, as you noted off tank, uh, Players who focus on off tanks are probably scared, but the characters are going to stay. So it's really just a question of how – I mean, like D.Va and Hog are really brawly characters already. So I could maybe envision that those wouldn't change too much. They might just have better tank capabilities. Right. But some of that might not be as necessary if they're doing what I had already heard, which was that a big de-emphasis on that Overwatch 1 has gotten way too much into crowd control and they really want to move it so there's not nearly all this crowd. You know, everyone has seen video clips of like when you go in to do something and then you got froze by the Mei and then knocked down by a Sigma Rock and then you were booped by the Lucio. Yeah, and that's one of the things they said is Mei doesn't freeze anymore. Right. She just slows. And so given all of that, it's just when I was told about it, I was like, I can't tell you if it's a good idea or a bad idea because without knowing what's happening with all the other characters, it's too – I could tell you it sounds like a terrible idea if everything else about Overwatch stayed the same and all you did was go from six to five. But they're not doing that. So I just can't – it's – now you bring up a point about the people making their living, the people in the Overwatch League, and I understand where they'd be concerned. I know that one of the people at Blizzard had speculated, but again, this is a speculation, that he would think that it's too hard for high-level competitive players to master all of the tanks. They already don't. So there will be value for teams to be able to still have someone who can play D.Va and Zarya and someone else who plays Rein and Orisa and that there still be the same need for the same number of tank players. They're just not going to be in every game.
    59:06
    I'm pretty skeptical. given how much um given how cheaped out so many of these these teams have become i mean not to fall into a big overwatch league discussion but like nyxl for example is a team that it's got their top level support player and it's a bunch of rookies yeah and i i'm assuming the reason they did it was to save money because it sure hasn't made them play better they are not the team they were they're merely they're a middling team or let's talk about uh your team that you like to follow london spitfire which it has been almost 12 months since they last won yeah no they are and they've they've gone through multiple rounds of changes of coaching and they wiped the whole team and started over and and now and now they're the shanghai dragons of the current season yeah it's just it's sad it's i watched their game yesterday and it made me sad it's one of those things that so many of these teams seem to be i think they bought in with the high price tag you know the 20 to 25 million dollar buy-in and they're not making their money back no and i mean the overall league's got its own it because like i'm unclear about like i understand doing what they've done currently given the state of the world but they have been talking about planning to keep things in the more online approach most of those team buys all of the team buys to my knowledge and creations including the expansion teams were under the assumption that there would be home stands if there was going to be live audience and that's where the money was going to come in doing all this just watch it online might work for blizzard to earn some youtube ad money but it's that's not what these teams signed up not at all they need to have the in-person events where people will be like i want to buy a jersey it's at the event i'm going to buy merch while i'm here It's like a rock concert And that's what Obviously the pandemic meant we had to do shifts So I totally get that But they need to If they're not going to do everything in person I think there needs to be If the Overwatch League is going to last It needs to go into something where That energy is gone It was so much more fun to watch When they were in the Blizzard Arena Yes When there was live audiences Go back to doing that If it's too hard to pull off the homestand stuff and say that you're going to have all of the – like they're doing the May Melee and the June Jazz and all that. Like all of your final rounds are done in person at an arena setting or something. Yeah. And then do your qualifier. All your pre-prep, your pre-season ranking stuff is online or something. They're ways. And it sounds like they were planning some sort of blend, but I just don't know what they're doing. I don't know. And I don't know if they can survive. Well, and that's the thing is, well, I guess not really necessarily been confirmed. All of us fans are under the impression that Overwatch 2's release has been super delayed versus when it should have come out. Yeah, the earliest they've said is not before 22. Right. And that's not a date. That's just not before next year. We all thought, I thought I'd be playing Overwatch 2 now for quite a while. Yeah, we all thought 20, maybe 21. And that's another thing that's, that's because they said when they released Echo, which was over a year ago, that was it. No more characters.
    62:31
    And until the new game comes out, they won't bring new people. They're not going to grow the audience. I mean, I guess the numbers actually on Overwatch have been pretty good, but for players. Right. But if you want to bring interest into the league and stuff, I think you really got to get, it needs to be the new game that everyone, it's got to be the new hotness. This has been too long. This is too old. Yeah. So they can save it. I'm just, I don't know what's happening. And Blizzard did make, I did see a notation that they said something. They're going to be doing something with Overwatch 1 here soon.
    63:02
    I have no, I mean, it was so vague. I was like, what, another special event? Or they're actually going to add something. They might have to add something. The game is reasonably balanced, right? I got to say, like, in terms of the team mix-ups and what I'm seeing in Overwatch League, it's like the best balanced I've ever seen. I'm actually seeing diverse, like different teams can run different, like they're bad with a meta. They can make something else work now. You're right. But, yeah, I throw it on in the background.
    63:30
    So, you got to get your bloops. You got to get my bloops. So, we're going to leave Blizzard and go to another common topic here lately in this last year, Twitch. Hot tub meta. Twitch suspended the advertising On several of the channels That would fall into the Hot tub meta At the advertisers request And for those who don't know the hot tub meta Is basically People would Set in hot tubs and swimsuits Primarily females And talk Play games Do stuff It's basically PG cam girling stuff for money. And they made a lot of it. But advertisers have requested and had issues with it. So they started pulling the ad revenue. But they didn't tell the channel creators until they just stopped getting ad revenue. Uh-oh. So there was a big issue with that. And due to feedback, they went ahead and created a whole new category called Pools, Hot Tubs, and Beaches that the advertisers can opt out of and people can go in and sit in their inflatable hot tubs in their living rooms and do whatever and show whatever.
    64:54
    Yeah, we got an email to our EGP Twitch about it, the announcement, so that we would be aware should we want to hot tub that there's a category for us. A category for it, yeah, because I was already thinking about it, joining the hot tub meta, because, you know, fat hairy me sitting in a thing playing video games while people watch, I think we'd make bank. It'd just be amazing. Well, we could use the funds. Yeah, we'd be huge. It'd be the biggest thing in a hot tub.
    65:27
    Though, obviously, I did look at the new category, and there was one that stood out at me, and that is Hot Tub Uncle Iroh. it's just a clip of Uncle Iroh from The Last Avatar,
    65:44
    sitting like Photoshopped into a hot tub with like the lo-fi music that's got so popular on YouTube and stuff, going in the background. And then every once in a while an Iroh line from the show will be played over it as just Iroh giving out some wisdom. And that's it. And it's hilarious. And it's just on repeat. so that was hilarious they also attempted to clear up their guidelines on sexually suggestive content and they said being found to be sexy by others is not against our rules and Twitch will not take enforcement action against women or anyone on our service for their perceived attractiveness for which I thank you I personally hate it when my attractiveness gets me banned from Twitch. It makes me feel really bad. I have to shut off my cameras.
    66:43
    And they went on to say, streamers may appear in swimwear in contextually appropriate situations at the beach, in a hot tub, in a pool, for example. And while gaming. And we will allow creative expression like body writing and body painting provided the streamer has appropriate coverage as outlined in our entire policy. Nudity or sexually explicit content, which we define as pornography, sex acts, and sexual services, are not allowed on Twitch.
    67:12
    So, we're going to kind of date ourselves here, but for those who remember back in the 90s, the really popular laddie magazines, you know, like FHM and Maxim Magazine, Oh, yeah. Which were the, hey, we're Playboy and Penthouse, but we don't show nipples. Yes, right. That's pretty much exactly what Twitch is now saying is you can do all of this stuff in the right context.
    67:45
    I literally saw one where a guy was laying curled up in a bathtub, fully dressed, watching a movie and commenting on it. Okay. So you can do whatever you want.
    68:01
    The meta is how you win. You've got to play the meta. But it's literally the Laddie Mag version of an OnlyFans or a Canberra. That's actually a really good description for those old enough to remember Maxim. Yes. and they also announced that they are in introducing 350 new tags to give more choice to their tag system and they're changing their policy on tagging so that creators can tag not just what they are playing but stuff about who they are and what they stand for um the tags will be related to gender sexual orientation race nationality ability mental health and more So basically they used to just have the tags Where it was like you could tag what kind of game If it was your first time playing the game Which is helpful Because I'm always like I need it tagged So they know I'm a noob And what language it is But now they're letting you add All sorts of other stuff So that people can more finely tune What they're looking for And we're going to finish up With another Just light hearted and joyful topic Ubisoft. Earlier this month, a report came out from the French Le Telegram stating that Ubisoft had only made minimal changes after their large sexual harassment debacle that we talked about in episode 119 last summer. Where it spanned the whole company. Lots of people lost their jobs and stuff. Ubisoft followed up by the other day putting out a lengthy statement saying what progress they had made. And they say that 14,000 employees took part in group-wide assessments, including anonymous questionnaires. 2,000 employees took part in focus groups and listening sessions. Their HR department was audited by an outside third party that resulted in strengthening their non-discrimination and anti-harassment policies, with a new company code of conduct being introduced next month that will have to be signed by all employees. Okay. And the next is a quote.
    70:15
    We have recently implemented a new performance criterion to our compensation scheme with specific expectations for managers. This new attribute will focus on our ability to care for people, behave inclusively, and foster a safe and respectful work environment. basically what it amounts to is managers who fail to uphold the safety of their reports will be impacted financially it's going to factor into their bonuses okay so and they made a number of hires and personnel changes to improve the balance of women in senior roles improve diversity and inclusion and to add a more diverse perspectives to its editorial board Once again going to quote, be exemplary in our teams i want to stress my personal commitment to continue to improve our workplace culture and create real lasting and positive changes at ubisoft considering that so many of the problems came from management then i don't know does this count as minimal uh amounts of changes it seems like more than i would have assumed from what the newspaper said but i don't know if they knew about all of that and this is them now clarifying like if they had heard reports of, I mean, I could see where you could have an article come out where it's like, well, after the firings, all they did is they sent us some surveys and we've not seen any changes. Right. And you did note that there was, that the code of conduct is being introduced next month. So it hasn't happened yet. So a lot still didn't actually happen. So I think they're both right. I think that this does sound fairly substantive to me. It does. But that being said, they took their time. It's been almost a year. It was July last year. Yeah. When this blew up in July and we're coming up on June. Maybe for codes of conduct and stuff. And given how big they are – I mean, see, that's part of the thing. I could whip up a whole new code of conduct and get it approved within a week, but I'm the only – but I'm the only one there. Right. Of course it's easy for me to do. And Ubisoft has tens of thousands of employees.
    72:45
    So it's a definite larger – They've done more than I thought they would, actually. I was actually going through the list. I was in the same boat. I mean, do I figure they pay lips or more lip service than what they actually have affecting managers bonuses? That's actually a bonus.
    73:03
    I figured they probably do some surveys and maybe write up a new employee manual to better emphasize that there will be punishments for those that violate their sexual harassment policy. Right. That's what I thought they'd do. That's kind of what actually that's what the typical max that happens. they're like, oh, we did bad. We'll check and make sure things are okay and we'll make some adjustments.
    73:27
    We'll reword stuff that's already out there. So overall, yeah, I think they've done a decent job from what it sounds like. We'll see how it actually works out in the future because that was one of the ones that last July all this stuff blew up, not just with Ubisoft. Yeah, there were, I mean, that was like... A lot of it just went super quiet. Right, that was also, that was right around the time where we also saw that that big fighting game tournament, Evo, the scandals going on. And there was a lot that came up at the same time. Yeah, because that was actually in episode 119. We talked about Evo cancellation also. It was the summer too, and that got canceled pretty quick because they were going to do a virtual. And then with the showrunner having committed or allegedly committed sexual harassment things. It was just like, they just pulled the plug. And now I guess they'll be back this year, but yeah, under new management.
    74:23
    But what's not under new management is us and people that want to reach out to us about how we manage this pretty meaty episode can always email us at CollecticGamersPodcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash CollecticGamersPodcast and you can message us over there. Or on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as Collectic underscore gamers. And hey, with things opening back up, there might actually be a post to the Instagram at some point. If I ever get to go play a game on location. That's right. There might be. And if spooky is spooky, we might have yet more pinball news in two weeks. I mean, let's be honest with the way our luck tends to go. The announcement will happen Tuesday. Yeah, but then we'll have it. I'll stick it in the, I'll stick it in the internal notes and be like, I've already built the pinball section.
    75:07
    Until next time. My name is Dennis. I'm Tony. Goodbye, everybody. See ya.